“A lawsuit can be a weapon.” Bari Weiss
My mother is now at her assisted living facility. I am so thankful to all of you for your prayers and well wishes. It was a hard couple of months. Thanks for sticking with me.
Well, darn. Another well-heeled Christian organization, Z88.3, and its general manager, Jim Hoge, are pursuing a defamation lawsuit against a Christian couple with few financial resources (funny how that works) and Warren Cole Smith of Ministry Watch.
I have contacted both the radio station and Warren Cole Smith for comment and have not received a response.
I find it interesting that Jom Hoge and Z88.3 (WPOZ) have not broadcast that they are being defamed, seeing that they are a successful Christian station in the Orlando area. I am surprised they didn’t let their many donors know about this lawsuit against fellow Christians. I would imagine the legal fees are significant. Then again, did I mention that the station appears successful and well-heeled?
Defamation lawsuits can be used by those whose feelings easily get hurt.
Dee becomes a bit apoplectic when Christians are so thin-skinned that they sue when called names or are accused of certain actions. Goodness. I would be in court if I sued each and every time individuals or ministries accused me of “bad things” and even called me names. I keep a list of “Things the world is saying about The Wartburg Watch.” I have been called Jezebel and, my personal favorite, “A Daughter of Stan”- that supposed Christian didn’t know how to spell Satan. If one could see the comments about me that are never let through, one would feel a bit sick in the stomach. I have had a defamatory letter sent to the members of my church and I have had a member of The Gospel Coalition, Joe Carter, accuse me of libel. I even had one Christian accuse me of something so heinous that I used my limited writing skills to suggest he leave Twitter, which he did.
I’m a strong woman and I can take it on the chin. I constantly remind myself that Jesus Himself was accused of all sorts of things, including working with the devil. His exemplary response leads me to attempt to educate those who are accusatory and causes me to forgive and move on. I wish more Christians would take this approach.
But, I’m not a well-known radio station and perhaps the folks in that industry are not as strong as I am. Perhaps I make the mistake of thinking that Christians who lead companies must be strong and graceful, you know-true Christian leadership examples to the rest of us poor slobs. I am working hard to find if grace is being freely given or even exemplified by the litigants in this situation.
Defamation lawsuits, although allowed by law, are difficult to prove.
I wish I didn’t have to keep repeating this but I must, once again. In order to prove defamation, one must prove that the accused individuals knowing lied and repeated that lie in order to cause malicious harm to another.
In the United States, (European readers note that your libel laws are different), the golden standard is this. If the person believed that what they were saying was true, they most likely did not defame. For example, I accused Andy Savage of molesting Jules Woodson when he was her youth leader. This was based on credible testimony given to me by Jules Woodson herself. I had no physical proof but I believed that Jules told the truth. In this situation, Savage admitted that he had had an intimate encounter with Jules. But I spoke out against this action without knowing he would admit his culpability. I did not defame Savage prior to his admission.
The individuals who raised concerns about Jim Hogue believed they were true, based on some evidence which includes discussions with people directly involved in the situation. I believe that they spoke the truth.
Defamation lawsuits can be used by a company or an individual who has more significant financial resources than those they are accusing of defamation.
In this particular situation, Andrew and Bethany Marinelli have few financial resources. They cannot afford a legal defense. I do not know about Warren Cole Smith’s situation but I suspect that this is a drain on his resources as well. On the other hand, Jim Hoge and Z88.3 appear to have the significant financial backing of the company. I wonder. Do donations to the station go to support this lawsuit? I was going to ask them this question but they never contacted me. Maybe someone else knows.
When a monied company files lawsuits against individuals who cannot afford such coverage, and the lawsuit appears questionable, some states have put Anti-SLAPP laws into effect. This prevents companies and individuals with lots of resources from filing lawsuits against individuals who have no resources to defend themselves. You can see the states which have implemented such laws here. Florida is one of them. However, I am not a lawyer and all of this is just Dee wondering…
I just wish Christians would develop the grace and the thick skin of our Savior and let things go. Is this sort of lawsuit an example to the world of how Christians care for one another?
History of the lawsuit
On October 8, 2021, TWW posted When a Christian Radio Station Is Accused of a Hostile Work Environment: A Look at WPOZ Orlando, “The Z.”
This post looked at the allegations of a hostile work environment at Z88.3 and specifically expressed concerns about the general manager, Jim Hoge. I interviewed a long-time employee, Jim Davis, who was fired along with 6 other employees. Apparently, there were questions about finances, NDAs, inadequate Board oversight, and narcissism. I quoted from Warren Cole Smith’s article as well. It sure sounds like this organization was having some issues, similar to many churches written about on this blog.
At the time, I spoke with other individuals and finished the post, believing that this thing wasn’t over. If what I heard was true, I had a feeling that certain individuals would not let this go. I was right. This self-styled Christian radio station and their self-styled Christian manager, Jim Hoge, decided to do the “Christian thing” and sue their fellow Christians for defamation. This means they were liars-they didn’t tell the truth. But I don’t believe that to be true.
The Lawsuit
At the end of this post, I have a link to the original lawsuit. It is terribly long and here is a summary of some points in the document that you might find helpful unless you are into reading very long lawsuits. If you are. please feel free to add what you find of interest,
Lawsuit Complaint Summary: Case # 2021CA002766
- In the Circuit Court of the Eighteenth Judicial Circuit in and for Seminole County, Florida
- Filed on November 19th, 2021
- Plaintiffs: James (Jim) Hoge (president of Z88.3) and Z Ministries, Inc. dba Z88.3
- Defendants: Warren Cole Smith, Andrew Marinelli, and Bethany Marinelli
Statement from 1st Paragraph:
“This is an action by Plaintiffs against Defendants for damages…for defamation (on its face), defamation (innuendo), and tortious interference with business relationships.”
Regarding Warren Cole Smith:
- He is accused of “tortious acts” that “resulted in damage” to Plaintiffs, publishing “defamatory material”, and “target[ing]” Jim Hoge. He is further accused of “target[ing]” Z Ministries donors.
- He is also accused of defaming and harming the Plaintiffs to increase interest in, and donations to, MinistryWatch. He is further accused of seeking individual profit, from tortious conduct, by increasing book sales. Paragraph 18 claims “a personal mission to defame Plaintiffs” by “one-sidedly ‘reporting’ on so-called ‘troubles’ at Z Ministries.”
- Paragraph 17 states:
“Smith’s purported mission is to shed light on Christians that defraud other Christians. However, Smith’s real mission turns creating false and misleading publications for his own financial gain without regard to the reputation of the company or individual he has chosen to target.”
- Paragraphs 23-192 take issue with the content of multiple articles and podcasts, published by MinistryWatch, that concern Z88.3, and Jim Hoge. These paragraphs take issue with eight articles and six podcasts and claim publication dates from April 10, 2021, to August 27, 2021.
- Paragraphs 193-200 include claims that Smith acted with malicious intent to defame Plaintiffs, that he sought monetary gain at Plaintiffs’ expense, and that he
“created a false narrative about Plaintiffs…in a blatant effort to sell his book.”
- Further claims: That Smith caused distress and reputational harm to Plaintiffs, and caused
“loss of business, humiliation, embarrassment, and distress to Plaintiffs.”
Dee interjects here:
Wow. The plaintiffs appear to have some special insight into Smith’s “real mission.” They appear to claim that Smith was getting some sort of financial gain from writing about The Z. Are they claiming that the Z is so influential that the mere mention of the name in a publication brings in all sorts of financial gain? I sure would like to know how much money Smith made on his publication. My guess is not much.
In fact, it appears the plaintiffs went as far as to say that Smith was getting his book to sell by writing about the Z and Hoge. Are they that big? Maybe I’m misreading this?
As for humiliation…Dee knows something about that and she didn’t sue because she has thick skin. She is willing to talk to the Z and Hoge and tell them how she does it. It involves prayer and forgiveness,
Dee ends digression.
Further details regarding the Marinellis:
- The Marinellis are accused of “repeatedly publish(ing) false and defamatory statements against Plaintiffs” and posting of “additional false and defamatory information on Z Ministries’ Facebook page.” They are further accused of posting “an ad to Facebook with additional defamatory content” and targeting “Plaintiffs during Z Ministries’ annual fundraiser…” with intent to disrupt fundraising efforts.
- Paragraphs 19-22 and 201-211 take issue with a Facebook page called “Wounded Souls and Harm at Orlando’s Z88.3 FM.” The complaint claims involvement by both Bethany and Andrew Marinelli with said page and takes issue with the page’s content.
- Paragraphs 202-205 take issue with a repost of a letter from former Z Ministries employee and board member Carter Kenyon.
- Paragraph 206 claims that the Marinellis repeated false claims by pastor Renaut Van Der Riet.
- Paragraphs 207-209 claim that the Marinellis “posted a long diatribe,” “repeat many of the false claims made by Smith,” and “falsely claim that Z Ministries causes ‘harm,’ is hypocritical, and does not ‘minister to its own staff.’”
- Paragraph 209 claims defamation from “causing readers to believe that there is reason for them to ‘lift [their] voices[s]’ on behalf of Z Ministries employees.”
- Paragraph 211 takes issue with (as stated) “an advertisement on Facebook targeted against Z Ministries” and states
“The advertisement falsely claimed that “Z88.3 is facing controversy. Staff have departed. There is pain.” This paragraph claims that Bethany Marinelli re-posted the advertisement on October 1, 2021 and committed defamation by saying “Please help speak up for our brothers and sisters in Christ. Nobody should be treated this way.”
- Paragraphs 212, 213 take issue with posts by Bethany Marinelli on Facebook and her linking to a blog post available at bethanymarinelli.com
- Paragraph 214 claims”
The Marinellis targeted their false narrative against Plaintiffs” with the express purpose of causing financial and reputational harm to Plaintiffs.”
Dee interjects here
- Did the Marinellis try just to speak with Hoge during their annual fundraiser as opposed to attempting to disrupt it? Maybe they went there with honorable intentions?
- Is it possible that they believed what Pastor Van Der Riet told them? Many people believe what pastors have to say.
- Did the Marinellis know that Smith posted false claims when they repeated them?
- Maybe they believed Smith was telling the truth? For example, I follow Smith’s writings and I would believe that he was telling the truth as he perceived it. Do they really think that this couple, who struggles financially, was trying to cause financial harm to the plaintiffs? Couldn’t they just be telling the truth for the sake of the truth as they knew it to be?
Dee ends the digression
What are the counts?
Paragraphs 215-260 detail counts claimed against the defendants. 215-237 (Smith) and 238-260 (Marinelli’s).
The Plaintiffs claim, regarding all Defendants,
- that false and defamatory statements have been made
- with reckless disregard,
- that the Defendants have been negligent,
- and that the Plaintiffs have suffered and been damaged.
- It is also claimed that Defendants acted with malice.
- intentional and unjustifiable interference with Plaintiffs’ business relationships through publication of negative false claims.
Who has legal representation?
- Plaintiffs have legal representation.
- Warren Cole Smith has legal representation.
- Andrew Marinelli is self-represented.
- Bethany Marinelli is self-represented.
What does Dee think?
- It is legal to bring a defamation claim so long as it is not done merely to drive the other side into the ground financially.
- Defamation lawsuits rarely go anywhere.
- I am surprised by some of the claims of the plaintiffs and will be astonished if they go anywhere.
- Has anyone looked into the anti-SLAPP laws in Florida?
- Why haven’t the Z and Hoge told their listeners that they are suing the Marinell’s and Smith? I would think they would want to gather their listeners around them to support them?
- Why hasn’t the well-financed self-styled radio station and Hoge taken the high road in this matter? Do they think that Jesus would act in a similar fashion?
Once again, I’m saddened when I perceive that the evangelical, industrial, monetized complex is going after the little guy. Why am I reminded of the Pharisees who went after Jesus when they thought their religious power and their money was threatened by a dusty, no account rabbi who seemed to make them feel terribly uncomfortable?
For those of you who don’t understand the Scripture surrounding the word “slander,” I wrote a helpful post titled: Slander or an Inconvenient Truth? You might be surprised to learn that the Bible seems to track with our views on defamation today.
After looking at all of this, I believe in and stand with the Marinellis and Warren ColeSmith and predict that the lawsuit will (and should) go away eventually. Too bad that they have to scare decent folks like the Marinellis and Smith in the meantime. SMH.
Here is the entire lawsuit
Numero Uno?
You nailed it again, Dee. Funny how Z88.3 is going after folks who probably don’t have enough money to make it worthwhile. Even worse, they didn’t tell their listeners what they are doing. None of this passes the smell test.
“Defamation lawsuits can be used by a company or an individual who has more significant financial resources than those they are accusing of defamation.”
So, in a nutshell, bully tactics?
Dee, thx for the updates and good news about your mom. I imagine Jesus would say, “Well done, good and faithful servant (daughter).”
Some day, we will all get there, God willing, into our senior years and in need of tender care. May we care for each other with love and dignity.
Is a radio station an important enough thing to listen to? I only listen one day a year when there has been an election. Is the firm mentioned a dominant employer in the region?
A prayer nexus would be a very good thing, because increasingly that is needed. Contrary to what the C of E and “evangelicals” teach, real prayer doesn’t comprise targetting: only God’s good angels do that. I expect Christians don’t believe in those.
It’s good to get our heads together when flaws in our concept of “christianity” have led us up against problems. We have got to look after us first. Hurt christians had wrong doctrine, themselves. It goes back generations, and was made subtly but greatly worse by the recent “apologetism” industry. Scarcely anyone knows what is in the Bible, which is why scarcely anyone can stand up for themselves or each other, or guide the erring.
Do the Marinellis see the management of the company mentioned, as influenced by the James / Dewey view of religion (overlapping with Durkheim’s social glue) (and which Russell commented on)? I “sort of” “don’t see” why this should be a sore point with the station’s management?
I see lots of people in religious management situations copy a personal pattern that was ambient, or in someone else’s personal background, where there may have been narcissism, then the person we are worrying about or who has hurt us will inadvertently appear “narcissistic” in their own right.
It is an appearance that jumps as it were like a meme, from one habitus to another. Has “reformed” boiled down to (if not in Z case) putting on “almost as faux narcissistic as thou”?
Do we know whether Z have considered seeking to demonstrate that Van Der Riet himself is the archetypal, “entirely believable as he looks”, supposedly “true to type”, high profile “TGC & Ac 29” bad guy?
Would that not be a premier sample of the designer “falling out among pretend thieves” that is so de rigeur in our present new dawn? 😉
YRR as the new WWF? Attract the ratings! See how I am helping the Z company by my inexpensive solution.
(The doctor did tell me to take irony tablets)
Bethany Marinelli is a personal friend of mine. She and her husband are two of the finest people I know—very strong Christians who live out their faith not just in their personal lives but in the way they operate their family business and display their values. No, they are not blessed with abundant financial resources, and in addition, Bethany suffers from mental health issues (she has made this public so I can say it here). This lawsuit has only exacerbated those issues.
This couple has been through incredibly trying times in their personal life, including physical health and financial burdens, for literally years. Please consider adding them to your prayer list.
Thus far corporate and spiritual issues. Far more importantly however from my old employers’ experiences with Myers-Briggs the real version – which its founders sharply differentiate from Jungianism.
Myers-Briggs the real version is about keeping people in post and bringing out their best side. My hunch is the boss mentioned has untapped talent in elegance and his staff have untapped talent in representing his higher authority fairly. I foresee huge improvements quickly due to minor clarifications in job styles, and the finance side looking rock solid in no time. This will in fact keep the “christianity” aspect of the affair out of the public spotlight, entirely.
The irony pills wore off 🙁
What makes a Christian radio station Christian? Does simply airing Christian music and messages of Christian ministers make a broadcast outlet Christian? Is it possible to own and manage a Christian radio station and not be Christian? How much of what we call Christian in America is not really Christian at all?
People claiming to be believers taking people claiming to be believers to court. Instigating party of this legal action needs to take some time to read the Bible (1 Corinthians 6) and remind themselves that they should not.
It was predestined to be Christian in eternity past.
When someone or some entity labeled as Christian is not walking the straight and narrow way, believers are challenged to call them out … to correct, to rebuke. This is not defamation, this is love. If someone’s “good reputation” does not reflect who they are behind the curtain, if others are being impacted by their bad behaviour, say something, do something! When the precious name of Christ is used as a marketing tool, the organization is no longer Christian (and Lord knows there is a LOT of this going on across the American church).
“Keep your sense of urgency [stand by, be at hand and ready], whether the opportunity seems to be favorable or unfavorable. [Whether it is convenient or inconvenient, whether it is welcome or unwelcome … show people in what way their lives are wrong.] And convince them, rebuking and correcting, warning and urging and encouraging them, being unflagging and inexhaustible in patience and teaching.” (2 Timothy 4:2 AMPC)
Most defamation law suits are like employee non-disclosure agreements … they are designed to intimidate, manipulate and dominate … to get folks to shut their mouth, to cease and desist from speaking truth. Heck, as we’ve read on TWW countless times, some playground bullies grow up to be church leaders and heads of “Christian” organizations, still bullying others.
Quite a bit, I fear.
Yep!
Therein lies a big problem … not everyone who claims to be a Christian, is. Jesus had a lot to say about that in Matthew 7.
I like the way J.B. Phillips translated 1 Corinthians 6:
“I say this deliberately to rouse your sense of shame. Are you really unable to find among your number one man with enough sense to decide a dispute between one and another of you, or must one brother resort to law against another and that before those who have no faith in Christ!”
Unfortunately, both spiritual sense and common sense are waning in the American church.
Direct Private Revelation?
Try to go into any detail with that and you’re going down the rabbit hole.
“Just like http://wrestlecrap.com/ Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
I am going to be purposely vague so I don’t wind up sued, but had an experience with a “Christian” radio station recently myself. I was bopping in the kitchen to some of my favorite gospel music when the live dj made a statement roughly to the effect that everyone, no matter age or health status, needed to get up and go to church that day and stop using the pandemic as an excuse. If people can go to concerts, ball games, and car races they can go to church. “You” will go to a casino but not church. That sort of thing. My first thought was yikes no what if someone with age or health issues feels guilted into church today and dies? I have thought of this dj as an easy going chap, so I reached out in concern. Nice reply but nope, he meant every word of it even though his sick family members stay home. Other people should not do the same. I pushed back a bit, knowing he is a preacher and a popular quartet singer, and asked him to just search his heart. I told him that as a SS teacher, staying home during the pandemic is HARD. We have our gifts and the urges to use them, but must sacrifice for the greater good. I asked if maybe he finds it equally difficult to face empty pews or low concert attendance, making him say something he really did not mean.
UM, can we say Calvinist in the house? Lowly woman questioning a preacher? What has made me bitter against the church? Why am I slandering and speaking libel against him? I was speaking to him privately, so no chance of that label sticking lol. Why did I not have my husband contact him? He then said he must end our conversation since he must not allow my sin to continue. I told him I would continue to pray for him and the good work he and his church and station do and that I was sorry I offended him but that still I must stand for following his county health dept’s guidance. At that he once again labelled me bitter and slanderous and ended the conversation.
OK, I guess some people are “too big to err” like some banks were “too big to fail?”
Not impressed.
How much good do the church and station do?
The subliminal message was “If people can spend money at concerts, ball games, and car races they can go to church to leave money in the offering plate.”
Throughout the pandemic, church gatherings have ranked high as super- spreaders. Folks leave there to go to another super-spreader outlet … restaurant buffets.
Correcting and rebuking a brother is not sin … it’s love.
This whole thing sickens me. The station management is bent on being the “winner” in this when they will most likely become the overall loser. Which is how it should be. Let it be a HARD lesson for Hoge and the so called “management” (???) of Z88.3… If this is truly how they want to be then the world will be a better place without them when it all goes south on them.
Agreed. And also, nothing’s more important than CHURCH. If you go anywhere at all, go to CHURCH. How dare you put your petty little anxieties before CHURCH.
In the runup to Prohibition, Temperance activists actually said that when Prohibition takes effect and “beverage alcohol” is outlawed, everyone would go to church instead of to the saloons.
Southern Baptists don’t recognize each other at the liquor store.
linda,
“he must not allow my sin to continue”
What sin? Following Matthew 18 while having two X chromosomes?
If someone spoke to me like that and also had the audacity to ask me why I was bitter against the church I would have to just laugh at them.
Old Timer,
“Funny how Z88.3 is going after folks who probably don’t have enough money to make it worthwhile.”
++++++++++++
sounds like good ol’ fashioned vindictiveness to me.
i’m *sure* this is exactly what Jesus would do. 😐
Max,
“Is it possible to own and manage a Christian radio station and not be Christian? How much of what we call Christian in America is not really Christian at all?”
+++++++++
oh, i think it’s ‘christian’, alright.
just wholly separate and distinct from Jesus of Nazareth.
‘christian’ has been redefined and redefined in both silly and grotesque ways.
if it’s possible to laugh and cry at the same time, this is it.
linda,
Your description of the person’s reactions to your concerns sounds a great deal like bog-standard DARVO (“Deny, Accuse, Reverse Victim and Offender”). The problem isn’t ‘Calvinism’; it sounds IMO more like it might be ‘narcissism’. Narcissism isn’t incompatible with great skill at performing, but I’m not sure that our enjoyment of such performances is worth the trouble we cause by encouraging such performers by paying attention to them.
Consider directing your attention toward other influences. For music, there is a world of great work going back decades, a lot of which I think is no longer noticed by the demographics targeted by media companies. I’m very fond, for example, of some of John Michael Talbot’s music but heard it less and less in the years after ‘his muse left him’ and he stopped composing new work. (Some of his ‘ancient’ (by modern media standards) music is IMO wonderful. There’s some very moving and challenging music in No Longer Strangers; the first half of The Regathering is IMO very good, and I have to stand up and bellow along with Communion Song , “… Christ has died and risen; Christ will come again. In dying he destroyed our dying, in rising he brings new life again. Come, Lord Jesus! Come again!” And those are just a few highlights. For the Bride has some lovely music, and one could go on and on, and that’s just one songwriter.)
It’s obvious that there has been an outbreak of narcissism within New Calvinism. TWW reports on these narcissistic bad-boys frequently and the harm and evil they have brought to the American church. There are many “pastors” within the NeoCal movement that have an inflated sense of their own importance, a need for excessive attention and admiration, and a lack of empathy for others.
It’s almost to the point where “Christian” in certain corners of the American church does not mean believers and followers of Christ. The authority and influence of Jesus is waning in what we call Christianity in many places.
To be frank with you, fairer grounds would be your soul competency.
A, shall we say tactful, comment by a Calvinist in a Calvinist discussion space recently pointed out that Calvin himself had left out a lot of “Bible truth”.
Dee, I am shocked to learn of the move in Prussia to “unify” Lutherans with “Reformed”, background to Missouri Synod and the observations of Nietzsche. (Prussia profoundly affected my family.) Centuries of contortions in the C of E are not dissimilar under the surface.
Samuel Conner,
linda,
(“Deny, Accuse, Reverse Victim and Offender”)
Corporate narcissism controlling the electronics is Desolating Abomination in the Temple (Body Of Christ) in place of Another Comforter. (Blaspheming Whom is self-unforgiving.)
The voice blaring from the speakers is not the voice in our heads.
When you flick the switch, don’t think they are talking about you!
Max,
“It’s almost to the point where “Christian” in certain corners of the American church does not mean believers and followers of Christ.
The authority and influence of Jesus is waning in what we call Christianity in many places.”
+++++++++++++++++
I’d say “christian” now means believers and followers of “biblical”.
…which is whatever professional christian guru X says biblical is.
criminy, jeepers, heavens-to-betsy, and blimey, too…
this silly religion of mine has become a caricature of a caricature of a caricature.
talk about derivative.
…which must really please complementarianism’s powerbrokers, with their definition of woman as a derivative & all.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
i make for the hills without going into the house
ii go home by another way
iii shake the dust off your feet
iv find your brother somewhere else (as equivalent to sacrifice)
Rabbit hole ~ Lewis Carroll ~ theory of Relativity ~ to The Lord one thousand years is as a second
“Rib” was a multilingual play on “she who brings life” a k a Eve
When you have millions of donor contributions in the bank it makes it all too easy to slap your detractors with a lawsuit. Bigger picture, it shows there is absolutely no Board leadership. Any qualified leader would have never let it leave the building knowing the obvious ramifications; Christians suing Christians. I feel sorry for trapped current staffers and the thousands of donors who have no clue this is going on.
I recommend Warren Cole Smith’s book, Faith Based Fraud. I have purchased it and read it eagerly. I knew about some fo the frauds and learned new details about those. Others were new to me and were interesting to learn about. I work as an internal auditor and true fraud crime stories such as are in this book are fascinating.
From the description: “ That’s why this book is so vital. Faith-Based Fraud is a clear-eyed look at fraud in the church – from Jim and Tammy Bakker’s PTL Network to Mark Driscoll, Todd Bentley, David Jeremiah, and Bill Hybels. It is an answer to those who say that the silence of Christian leadership is approval. And although this book is sometimes tough on the church and its leaders, its purpose is not to tear down the evangelical church, but to restore it to its rightful place of influence in the culture and in the lives of people who desperately need its message of grace and truth.”
It can be purchased at this source and others: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Faith-Based-Fraud-Paperback-9781952225550/387238725
I also like the weekly podcast from Smith and Ministry Watch, as well as the articles posted at the website. I occasionally donate to the organization.
Here is a fun theory. Put down your coffee before you read it to protect your computer:
https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/theory-adam-s-penis-bone-creating-eve-causes-outrage/
Michael in UK,
““Rib” was a multilingual play on “she who brings life” a k a Eve”
+++++++++++++++
well, ‘he’ certainly can’t. (i’m guessing complementarian spokesmen feel threatened by this and therefore had to doctor their theology)
can you explain more about the multilingual part?
LOL the good he and the station do is play some really great southern gospel. For some of us that is the heart music of heaven, and that isn’t going to change. Of course, I can easily switch my dial to my fave station out of Tennessee:) But the folks farther north cannot receive that better station. And if I don’t keep my ear tuned listening to southern gospel I am not going to be able to put that rhythm in my keyboarding when it is safe to get back to church, should it ever be needed. (And if it is needed you would know the church was really hard up for musicians.)
The Calvinism comment was because of the quick switch to accusing me of being “bitter.” Around here, that is their go to when a female raises any issue. That plus him saying that if you are predestined to get covid you will, and if not, not.
We are in one of the worst areas in the country for low vax rates, for literally no masking, and for still high transmission rates. It is getting harder to get numbers as our state continues to do all they can to fog up the reports and denigrate county and state health departments and health care workers. But our local hospital is still slammed with over twice as many covid patients as they have beds for, and many staff out with covid breakthrough cases.
As one county health person put it recently, while we are seeing the numbers dropping from when things were at their worst, they are still terribly high. Yet for some reason every time we see a drop we stop all mitigation efforts. Sort of like playing basketball and getting the ball all the way down the court setting up the lay up, and then just walking away from the ball. Or a team running a really great first leg of a relay race, declaring victory, dropping the baton and walking away from the track.
Some churches have restarted zoom church, others are keeping on with live streaming as much as possible, and some are full on pressing for everyone to return to church if you “love Jesus.” We are a confused mess here.
As to my own heart, Jesus said what I do to the least of these I do to Him. And He made is clear it was better to do good than harm on the Sabbath. That ought to have it covered IMHO.
linda,
Keep on fighting the good fight, Linda. It’s Biblical. 🙂
In two words, “She UPPITY.”
1) Puns like “Rib” and “Eve” to NOT translate out of their original language. At all. And ha-Tanakh is full of them (look at the Book of Amos – every vision of Amos is based around a groaner of a pun in Old Hebrew). Probably came from when it was oral tradition – you remember bad puns.
2) “Rib” as euphemism for “shlong” (with a pun in the bargain) also makes a lot of sense. To quote an old National Lampoon, there are more “funny names” for that particular male body part than any other male body part. Plus Genesis was originally written down by Jews, and Judaism can get very earthy.
Churches these days badly need an infusion of Jewishness, as a counterbalance to what they have become. Restoring balance between the Divine and the Human, the Spiritual and the Physical.
It just struck me:
Unlike most familiar mammals, humans do NOT have a baculum (penis bone).
So if “Rib” was a punny euphemism for “Baculum”, that would explain why men and women have the same number or ribs but men have no baculum.
What would really cinch this is whether other primates (especially pongoids) have baculae. If so…
Once again, SCIENCE PROVES THE BIBLE (hee hee)!!!!!
I agree, but it would have to be deep and authentic, informed by actual Jewish practices and customs. Jewish people have no obligation to help with this, and plenty of reasons to suspect such efforts as somewhere between silly and malevolent. The faux Jewishness in some churches ranges from seders and cherry-picked dietary laws to End Times craziness.
Reading about actual Judaism online is a revelation. It’s also probably a good start for good-hearted folks who have had little or no interaction with Jewish people, since it can be easy to say something insensitive. (Jewish people do still field occasional questions about whether they have horns, alas.)
One thing churches can do without special training about Judaism: allow vigorous disagreement and healthy debate.
And to add injury to insult, an extra snip is required. Who says God doesn’t have a sense of humor?
elastigirl,
It was apparently based on the sound of the word in some languages (most nations had several languages in some use) being the same. I may have got that from S N Kramer (sorry, not to hand).
Certain details got built into texts to aid memorising, with very few copies kept by the most senior trainers for cross checking. (If they become very senior, may be let in on a written copy. Reputedly Indian holy texts have been kept regular for centuries in this way: Brahmin apprentices still learn by ear but if they become very senior, may be let in on a written copy. This is why Israel almost certainly had the Pentateuch in Joshua’s time but there wasn’t much reading or writing till the exile.)
318 (number of Eliezer) trusty men of Abraham is an instance of the latter (check accuracy of master copy).
The etymology might work in the way you describe additionally.
Reciters may be trained to remember “pun and / or euphemism alert ahead”.
Scriptures especially earlier ones are full of deliberate euphemisms, just-so stories etc. To God the meaning has been paramount which is why it causes such trouble when fundamentalists don’t rise to His challenge to teach that.
BTW: “male & female He created them” is a JOINT category MORE THAN it is two incompatible ones, according to my insights.
My past includes a lot of exposure (and infection) of End Times Craziness.
Almost 50 years later, the damage is still there.
I’m currently having Nuclear War freakouts about Russia’s impending attack on Ukraine.
Thank You Hal Lindsay. You total Fraud.
Though my copy of Every Goy’s Guide to Common Jewish Expressions (real book) was lost many years ago, I remember at least four terms for that cerain male body part – the “wrong head” that does too much of the thinking. And three of the four mean “FOOL”:
1) Shlong – the actual organ.
2) Schmuck – (almost literally “D*ckhead”).
3) Shmo or Shmoe – literally “tiny schmuck”; now you know where the cartoon background-character name came from.
4) Putz – Superlative form of “schmuck”.
But then, the same book said that half the nouns in Yiddish mean “fool” or “idiot”. Schmuck, Schlemeil, Schlamozzel…
And now for something completely different:
Josh Duggar (he of the smug amusement mugshot) just surfaced on the YouTube channel “Illuminaughti”, which covers a lot of oddities and scandals:
Title?
“Christian Values: The Twisted Truths of the Duggar Family”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BWsF7zEhsY
(more information trickling in the accompanying comment thread.)
Part of the audio is a robocall recorded by Michelle Duggar. It’s the first time I’ve heard her voice – SHE SOUNDS LIKE A SIX-YEAR-OLD! LIKE SHIRLEY TEMPLE IN THOSE THIRTIES-VINTAGE MOVIES!
Headless Unicorn Guy,
I’m sorry. Hope you can find some tranquility.
I also hope for peace.
That.
It is worth noting that the station’s annual fundraiser was largely unaffected by any of the articles posted by Warren Cole. They achieved fully funded status before the end of their scheduled fundraiser time frame: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10165870535165230&id=55102060229
Part of the “bullying” is to intimidate others from speaking out like this person did. Unless you have resources, upon hearing about this I am sure it will make you fearful of facing a similar lawsuit.
Make an Example of one and a hundred will fall right into line bleating praise.
As an Eighties car dealer radio ad on Rich Buhler’s talk show put it:
“1-800-227-P-E-T-E –
For Dodge, Toyota, Ford, or Jeepie;
Yes it’s dumb, but I bet you remember it.”
And 40+ years later, I remember it.
Let me guess – Bible Belt?
Bet your churches are full and very rich and influential.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Sound of smashed glass and screeching brakes of repair people (already) “Central Alarms” etc.
doing so
For those who live in AZ like Todd, you have probably heard of this story, but for the rest there was a case like this that recently went all the way up to the state Supreme Court. One politician was invested in a message parlor. Their rival came out with an unbacked up claim that they were running a house of prostitution. Talk about something you would think worthy of such a lawsuit.
As I followed the badly written article attempting to explain what happened. The appeals went all the way up to the highest court in AZ. Their response was that freedom of political speech trumped all else and ruled for the politician that made the outlandish public claim. This illustrates how impossible this is to win such a lawsuit.
The guy bringing this is one real evil dude. Not the kind that Jesus knows so a false brother. Such have no fear of God. Their end will be terrible just as Jesus promised.