The Gospel Coalition Appears Afraid of Scot McKnight and Laura Ballinger’s “A Church Called Tov.” It May Be an Authoritarian Thing.

A Waterfall of Stars ESA/Hubble

“Criticism is something we can avoid easily by saying nothing, doing nothing, and being nothing.”Aristotle


I have been blessed in my life. Despite the unusual start to my Christian life (It involved Star Trek), God was gracious enough to send me into the arms of some loving pastors and theologians. Joanne Hummel, Howard Keeley, Pete Briscoe, Wade Burleson, and now, my two warm and loving Lutheran pastors. There are others here and there, including a Catholic priest. I grew in my faith due to the loving concern of these folks. They helped me to see that we have a God of love and care. Look at where He was born. It was a stable that was probably a cave. The angels sang to the shepherds, not to the priestly theologians of the day. He loved lepers, prostitutes, fishermen, and even a tax collector who was despised by the populace. He used His authority to protect the outcasts and the nobodies of this world.

When I came to the faith, it was an encounter with the God of the universe who deeply loved me, got me, and gently molded me. Yes, I got the sin part. How could I look at Jesus and not see how sinless and different He was? I became a nurse and developed a deep and enduring empathy for those I encountered; from the Navajo to the poor who lived in difficult circumstances. I remember visiting a flophouse and developing a love for the man, a letdown drunk, who had developed an unusual wound. I cried when I visited one day and found out that he had died.

I believed that this is the sort of love for others that God gives to all people. I thought all Christians felt as I did. The day I found out that my old church didn’t give a darn about the many who were abused was the day I got smarter and wiser. As I’ve wandered this post-evangelical wilderness (Thank you, Internet Monk, RIP) I discovered that many churches coldly apply unjust discipline, believe that women will be subservient to men in the hereafter, and appear to think they are mostly Saints with an occasional whoopsie.

I also noticed that some of these folks get irritated when someone challenges the way they treat or view the abused, the wounded, and the letdown. They appear to be distressed when someone, who is a respected theologian, actually emphasizes love and empathy. Why does it seem they want to knock down and fight instead of trying to understand? Is it personally threatening? Maybe so.

TGC’s Collin Hansen posted My Top 10 Theology Stories of 2021

I became concerned about the following. Under #2, The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill’ podcast rocks the church as leaders continue to fall., he wrote:

Prominent churches suffered internal divisions in this atmosphere of mutual suspicion. Because many Christians today expect their leaders to affirm more than challenge them, theologians will continue to debate the proper definition and application of “empathy.”

He appears to believe that the muddled masses, of which I’m one, want their leaders to affirm them, not challenge them  I believe that we, the masses, want to find leaders who truly love us. It’s not the lack of *challenge.* It’s the lack of love and empathy.

He says we will continue to debate the role of empathy in the church. The gospel boys aren’t big on empathy. Have you heard the one about empathy being a sin? This worries me.

Scot McKnight causes a conniption in The Gospel Coalition by writing about *Tov.*

Scot McKnight, along with his daughter, Laura Barringer, wrote a book called A Church Called Tov which I recommend with my whole heart and soul. The subtitle to the book is Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing. McKnight, his wife Kristin (who is a faithful abuse advocate), and his daughter attended Willow Creek and had their eyes opened as the accusations of the abuse of women by Hybels became internationally known.

The Gospel Coalition, via the author Brian Tabb, attempts to “theologically” school Scot McKnight on what is a ‘good’ church Themelios is a TGC journal that is THE resource to determine what constitutes ‘good theology’ and, ipso facto, a ‘good’ church in the eyes of TGC. They posted Brian Tabb’s What Makes a “Good” Church? Reflections on A Church Called Tov. Note how they put the word “good” in italics. Is it a subtle dig at McKnight’s book? By the way, 9Marks went after McKnight as well. So why are all the gospel boys going after McKnight? Let’s look at some of the statements from the Themelios article.

TGC appears to believe that McKnight has ungospelly views in the areas of theology. ecclesiology, and missiology. In other words “It’s all wrong!!”

The authors rightly lament unbiblical, worldly leadership practices in the church and commendably call for Christian communities to cultivate qualities like Christlikeness, compassion, and truthfulness. The question is this: how do we promote “good” churches that reflect Jesus’s truth and love to one another and the watching world? I argue that the tov proposal ultimately lacks the proper theological, ecclesiological, and missiological foundations for building healthy churches

It appears McKnight and Barringer don’t like membership covenants and how Matthew 18 and other verses are misapplied.

I just knew that covenants would be up first. These covenants are legal contracts with which TGC churches attempt to control members. TWW has written article after article of the problems with covenants and the problems with Matthew 18.

McKnight and Barringer take particular issue with how church leaders mishandle or misapply three NT passages—Matthew 18:15–17, 1 Timothy 5:19, and 1 Corinthians 6:1–8—in a way that seeks to silence critics, cover up wrongdoing and control the narrative in response to accusations (see pp. 47–53).

McKnight and Barringer also take particular issue with membership covenants, which appeal to principles from Matthew 18 and other biblical texts to direct the conduct of church members, including how they will resolve disputes and conflicts with other members. The authors argue that these covenants, along with some organizations’ use of nondisclosure agreements for departing employees, “are a way for church leaders to prevent negative information from becoming known” and protect the institution from lawsuits (p. 70).

By focusing on examples of pastoral malpractice without presenting the normative biblical practice for dealing with disputes and serious sin within the community, the authors foster suspicion and distrust of church membership covenants, pastoral admonitions, and appeals to Scripture as self-serving “spin.”

TGC appears to emphasize that church is all about accountability, discipleship (perhaps defined as church discipline?), and ex-communication.

Do you notice the words that TGC/Tabb leave out? Love is one. I rarely see the word ‘grace.’They seem upset that Mcknight does not mention church discipline in his book. We have seen example after example of the incorrect and abusive application of church discipline. As many of you know, I first met Todd when he was “retroactively church disciplined” by Mark Dever’s best buddy, John Folmar, in Dubai. I believe that I invented the term “retroactive church discipline” to describe what happened and I have used it many times since.

In a healthy church, clearly defined standards for membership offer a basis for proper accountability, discipleship, and, when needed, removal of those whose conduct dishonors Christ and harms those within the community.5

McKnight and Barringer do not mention church discipline in their proposal, nor do they present a process for evaluating accusations of abuse or other serious sin within a congregation.

The author appears distressed with McKnight/Barringer’s idea that evil in a church should be exposed in a public fashion.

Why do people need to tell what happened to them to those outside of the church? It is quite simple. The church often rejects those who come to tell them the truth. In my own story, I saw two different churches claim that some of us were the problem when we exposed the church leaders’ apparent rejection of the truth. I had one pastor tell me that he was told the recently released pedophile was not a problem. This is despite a 30-year history of molesting kids. I have told story after story of abusive church leadership going after the “little guy” who told the truth.

Let’s be clear. The Gospel Coalition and assorted hangers-on are fearful of being exposed to the public. I say,  “Let’s throw open the windows and doors of the church and let the Spirit come in and clean house. Let’s let the light shine on the darkness and show us all what churches care for the abused and oppressed and what churches are contributing to the pain of those who are victims and those who are marginalized.”

Sometimes the most biblical thing we can do is to expose evil to the light of truth by going public” (p. 144).

rather, they mean “tell it to the world,” presumably via news outlets or social media.This makes the court of public opinion the arbiter of “the truth” and dispenser of proper “discipline” for those within the church,

Observation-

The author appears to skip over McKnight’s concern about the despicable use of NDA’s in churches. These are often used to keep people from talking about the nastiness that goes on in some of these churches. It looks like he wants to avoid that discussion

Instead, he offers a series of Bible verses that say to take the ‘evil’ to the church and let the church decide whether or not to throw out the person!!! In other words, keep it internal. How’s that been working out in the last decade?

It seems that TGC advances CJ Mahaney’s theory that the sermon is the most important part of the week.

I may be mistaking his intent but it seems his following point has a sarcastic ring to it. As we know, many in the TGC, mostly due to Mahaney’s influence, look at the sermon as the most important time in the week. Some of them believe that the pastor should attempt to spend 30 hours preparing his sermon which leaves little time for others.

It appears that the author has trouble with the idea of letting the stories of women, the marginalized, and the wounded get anywhere near the pulpit. Imagine if a pastor actually allowed a woman who was abused to tell her story from the pulpit! It will be the end of civilization as we know it.

They make few positive references to preaching, though they note that pastors ought not think too highly of their own homiletical prowess and should regularly share the pulpit and preach inclusive sermons that incorporate stories of women, marginalized, and wounded people (p. 110). They celebrate several examples of tov leadership and community outside of the church, such as an accomplished NCAA basketball coach declining a raise (pp. 90–91) and the city of El Paso responding with empathy and compassionate support for a grieving widower

The author agrees that there are bad people in the church. He says churches should set high standards for those in the pastorate. Still, the people MUST OBEY.

Yet this is a group that has been consistently fooled by men like CJ Mahaney, Mark Driscoll, Doug Wilson and has even overlooked the problem with John Piper’s church because well…  they like our doctrine ya know.

Hebrews instructs believers to “remember,” “obey,” and “submit to” leaders who speak the word of God, keep watch over people’s souls, and set an example of faith

The author claims to want to have leaders that reflect God’s love but

We need to lament the painful effects of pastoral failures, and we need to recover a biblical vision of humble, godly servant leadership that reflects God’s love and authority and that’s measured by “faithfulness … according to God’s design.”18

I truly do not feel this author, as well as many in TGC, get McKnight. He gets sin and there sure has been a whole bunch of sinful leaders who have brought grave harm to church members. He is working through how to change the church culture.

McKnight and Barringer’s book was not one more book designed to hit marginalized and abused church members over the head with their sin. I don’t get how this works in TGC churches. I’ve seen people who have been abused being told by pastors that they contributed to the abuse and that they are sinners as well. I have talked with women from some of the TGC churches told to stick it out in abused marriages and to spend time focusing on changing their own sin.  The author complains that McKnight doesn’t focus enough on preaching or making disciples. It seems to me that McKnight would attract more disciples with his ideas.

Here’s the problem. I wouldn’t listen to the preaching in an abusive church that shows little love by stupidly disciplining folks for things like “not getting the vision. Years ago, I watched as TGC formed and gave us cock sure formulas which were made into redundant sermons that emphasized obedience and double honor to the church leaders, who “keep watch over their souls.” They haven’t done such a good job of it.

The tov church may be affirming, authentic, and sincere, but by failing to emphasize that sin is fundamentally against the holy and righteous God and not merely against other people, the authors offer a shaky foundation for promoting true repentance, forgiveness, and change.

McKnight and Barringer offer their clearest answer in the book’s final chapter: “Those who align themselves under the headship of Jesus as Lord identify with the redemptive work of salvation accomplished by Jesus on the cross (and brought to fulfillment by his resurrection and ascension), and they are brought into restored relationship with ‘the God who saves’

They acknowledge Christ’s saving work on the cross, but they focus attention on salvation from corrupt pastors and toxic churches and do not clearly connect this to the fundamental need of all people to repent and seek forgiveness for sins against a holy God. Further, while the authors stress the church’s “redemptive and restorative” agency in people’s lives (p. 216), they do not relate this to the normative activities of preaching, evangelism, or making disciples.

Given the choice between John Puper’s way and Scot McKnight’s way, I know what I would choose. I would go for the love that focuses on the marginalized and abused within the church any day. What about you?


I often think that Mary is marginalized in discussions of the Gospel. Here is one of my favorite Christmas songs.

Comments

The Gospel Coalition Appears Afraid of Scot McKnight and Laura Ballinger’s “A Church Called Tov.” It May Be an Authoritarian Thing. — 162 Comments

  1. “What about you?”… love for the downtrodden (through no fault of their own)? Or love for NDAs, apathy instead of empathy, the rule of men, etc.?

    Corrie and Betsy ten Boom in Ravensbruck shared the love of Jesus with a woman who said that God couldn’t love trash like her. The ten Boom sisters replied, “We are all trash.”

    We reach out to those downtrodden circumstantially (through no fault of their own) because spiritually we are ALL downtrodden.

  2. > I believe that we, the masses, want to find leaders who truly love us. It’s not the lack of *challenge.* It’s the lack of love and empathy.

    maybe, but I think that it might be that what believers who are attracted by the Story of Jesus are looking for is “leaders whose character remind them of the Jesus portrayed in the New Testament.” Such leaders would be challenging, too.

    I don’t know how rare this kind of leader is, but if they are in fact rare, that might be a metric of how strenuously God is exerting Himself on behalf of these churches, or for what purposes He is sending the kinds of leaders He is sending.

  3. It seems that TGC advances CJ Mahaney’s theory that the sermon is the most important part of the week.

    In this he agrees with Fidel Castro, whose “Socialismo o Muerte!” speeches/sermons lasted longer than Caesar Nero’s lyre concerts.

  4. I suspect McKnight might also be in disfavor among coalesced graspelers for (what seems to me to be) his deprecation (which strikes me as similar to NT Wright’s views) of what he calls “the soterian gospel” in favor of, IIRC, the “Jesus is King” understanding (again, similar to NT Wright) of the meaning of the NT term “gospel”.

  5. I don’t think it’s purely about control.

    There is a type that is afraid of McKnight’s and Ballinger’s book because they’re afraid of what it will reveal about themselves: that the sheep want little to do with them outside the service. It’s much easier to pour themselves into sermons, to put up a hedge of membership covenants and by-laws, to keep things transactional, than to learn to really listen to and relate to their members.

    At least, that is what I’ve seen. Scared little boys hiding behind all the yelling and breast beating.

  6. The TGC guys put so much emphasis on sin, there’s no room for forgiveness. I just cling to the story of the paralytic, whose friends dropped him through the ceiling in the house Jesus was preaching in. He saw that the friends had so much faith, and turned to the paralytic and said, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

    Here is both God and man in the flesh, not harping about the guy’s sins, or the sins of his friends, but just forgiving his sins in preparation for demonstrating that he also had the ability to heal. The TGC guys forget that. They just want to hammer us over and over again with our sinfulness. I can tell you, as someone who takes medicine for anxiety, that kind of hammering is just useless and infuriating.

    Has it occurred to the TGC guys that they’ve harped on sin so much, we all know, and that maybe we need some forgiveness and goodness??? I mean, if Jesus was truly God, he managed to live a few decades with the rest of us, and instead of just EXPLODING because of all the sin, he had mercy on us.

    TGC needs to learn mercy. IMHO.

  7. Two things.

    First, the Colin Hansen quote: “Because many Christians today expect their leaders to affirm more than challenge them, theologians will continue to debate the proper definition and application of ‘empathy.’”

    He has this backwards. I humbly suggest the following: “Because many Christian leaders today expect their congregations to affirm more than challenge them, theologians will continue to debate the proper definition and application of ‘discipline.’”

    Second, Matthew 18:15-17 DOES include going public with wrong doing. “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.”

    The tricky part is when those in power “tell it to the church” and twist the narrative while those not in power think that the issue is still on step two.

    Lastly, “A Church Called Tov” is dedicated to “the wounded resistors.” I think that makes a much better rallying cry than “for the sake of my narrow interpretation of doctrine.”

  8. The problem with the gospel gang is they add to the biblical text of Matt 18, teaching that this teaching is best done by pastors/elders in the church. Meaning that pew sitter Joe normal will always be dismissed when trying to follow this scripture when confronting the sin of a pastor. They fence themselves from this scripture by teaching they are the best qualified to carry it out- how convenient. Being an arrogant man of god in these types of churches means you’ll never have to you’re sorry. N

  9. from the post, near the beginning:

    “They appear to be distressed when someone, who is a respected theologian, actually emphasizes love and empathy. Why does it seem they want to knock down and fight instead of trying to understand? Is it personally threatening?”
    +++++++++++++

    i think they feel threatened on a few levels:

    1) when someone writes something that so plainly shows that this is not rocket science. it undercuts the lofty, oxford/cambridge-ish personna of a “theologian”.

    2) there’s just not a lot of intellectual things to say about love and empathy. it’s all sort of simple and obvious and plain. it shuts them up. which is terrifying to them —

    “PURPLE ALERT! PURPLE ALERT! how am i supposed to come up with multiple blog posts every week now that so-&-so has stolen the show with love & empathy?

    how am i supposed to drive traffic to my blog and make a name for myself now that their simple message makes a mockery of all my content as irrelevant details?”
    .
    .
    really, it puts their jobs and revenue stream in jeopardy.

    what’s a professional christian to do…
    .
    .
    “AHA! Let’s make empathy a sin! Ta-da! Now we have lots to write about!

    We can even contrive a new doctrine about it!

    and then it really gets lucrative when we come up with a United Against Empathy Statement, and we make ourselves the in-group as we blackmail everyone to sign the UAE on threat of being in the out-group!”

  10. elastigirl: “AHA! Let’s make empathy a sin! Ta-da! Now we have lots to write about!

    Well, it should be obvious to all that any human attempt to mimic Jesus is not only highly arrogant, it also robs Jesus of his due glory. So if we know what Jesus would do, we must do the opposite so that we don’t steal the limelight from him, since it should be all about him and not about us worms. So if he says something like, “No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you” – we must not do the same.

    /sarcasm

  11. I like this particular devotional because it is only bible verses with no commentary:
    https://www.annegrahamlotz.org/category/daily-light/
    The morning and evening readings for today (Dec 16) are especially relevant to this post. The TGC crowd focuses quite a bit on God being holy, but they define it in terms of how much God hates us flthy detestable worms and cannot tolerate us as we are. They miss the part about his holiness being grounded in his love. The ancient liturgies call God the lover of mankind. The TGC liturgies call him the loather of mankind.

  12. It is so obvious to me that the authoritarian and patriarchal way is not Biblical. I have often wondered WHY they didn’t go after the McKnights they way they have gone after others. They are not true shepherds protecting the flock. They are wolves and false prophets seeking to protect their power, authority and prestige by abusing/discrediting others and then silencing them. This is not Biblical.

  13. Wow. I read this book some months ago. I found it beautiful and inspiring.

    “they focus attention on salvation from corrupt pastors and toxic churches and do not clearly connect this to the fundamental need of all people to repent and seek forgiveness for sins against a holy God. Further, while the authors stress the church’s “redemptive and restorative” agency in people’s lives (p. 216), they do not relate this to the normative activities of preaching, evangelism, or making disciples“

    I guess that’s me told!

    But seriously, how silly is it to pick up a book that is explicitly about the antidote to “corrupt pastors and toxic churches” and then complain that that’s what the authors focus on?

    Also, what sort of preaching, evangelism or discipling will go on in a church that isn’t “tov”? I don’t recall the exact language they use, but McKnight and Barringer talk about how church culture and practice form people, often on a much deeper level than the content of the Sunday sermon. I wonder if that’s this writer’s real issue with the book-it takes the emphasis off the “pastory activities” that many professional church types value, and puts it on the character of the community and the unglamorous and deeply challenging work of loving one another. I know which ideal looks more like Jesus to me.

    Now if only they would write a field guide to finding a “church called tov…”

  14. CMT: Now if only they would write a field guide to finding a “church called tov…”

    I’m afraid that what is needed is a generations-long “march through the institutions.” The Practical Theology departments of many seminaries need to be reconfigured. It’s probably not likely that the current faculty in those departments are on board with the “Tov” vision, so there will need to be turnover, which will take a generation. And who will be the new teachers? McKnight’s students? Are there enough of them?

    One can hope that McKnight’s vision of church (and of “gospel”) can outcompete the current flavors that dominate Ev. Not sure that recent history gives grounds for optimism.

  15. The theobros at TGC are obsessed with (individualistic) sin because that’s what enables them to control all the people who listen to them. If you can convince somebody that they are hopelessly sinful and can’t even trust their own thoughts, feelings, and intuition, then it’s quite easy to convince them that they need to trust you to tell them what to do, how to think, and how to atone for all their sins. It’s classic cult mentality. McKnight and Barringer are challenging this, so of course TGC are scrambling to discredit them.

  16. “The gospel boys aren’t big on empathy.”

    If the “gospel boy” New Calvinists had ‘any’ empathy, they wouldn’t run roughshod over God’s people in their scorched-earth approach to taking over non-Calvinist churches. Looks like their “one true gospel” doesn’t have anything to do with things like love, compassion, sensitivity, empathy … or Jesus.

  17. “Do you notice the words that TGC/Tabb leave out? Love is one.”

    I have yet to hear anyone use the word “love” in describing the New Calvinist movement. Arrogance is the first word that pops to mind when characterizing their modus operandi.

    “I rarely see the word ‘grace.’”

    Oh, they talk a lot about “grace” … within NeoCal, it’s grace-this and grace-that … without a demonstration of Grace. It’s the cheap grace Bonhoeffer talked about, with little to do with Jesus. If you elevate your version of grace over Truth and Love, you become a heretic.

  18. “… the sermon as the most important time in the week. Some of them believe that the pastor should attempt to spend 30 hours preparing his sermon which leaves little time for others …”

    It doesn’t take 30 hours to search for and buy a canned sermon!

    New Calvinist “pastors” as a group do not pastor! They don’t visit in the homes of members or call them, they don’t pray with the sick in hospitals, they don’t go to nursing homes, they don’t preach funerals … they don’t pastor! But they find plenty of time to tweet their lives away at the coffee shop with their dudebros.

  19. Samuel Conner: his deprecation (which strikes me as similar to NT Wright’s views) of what he calls “the soterian gospel”

    “Soterian Gospel” as in “Gospel of Personal Salvation and ONLY Personal Salvation”?

  20. “I also noticed that some of these folks get irritated when someone challenges the way they treat or view the abused, the wounded, and the letdown. They appear to be distressed when someone, who is a respected theologian, actually emphasizes love and empathy. Why does it seem they want to knock down and fight instead of trying to understand? Is it personally threatening? Maybe so.”

    THIS

  21. Max: Oh, they talk a lot about “grace” … within NeoCal, it’s grace-this and grace-that …

    Meaningless Buzzwords or actual Disinformation.
    Just like “People’s Democratic” in the official name of a Third World Dictatorship.

  22. Ken F (aka Tweed): So if we know what Jesus would do, we must do the opposite so that we don’t steal the limelight from him, since it should be all about him and not about us worms.

    “For God to be of Supreme Importance, NOTHING AND NOBODY can have any Importance whatsoever.”

    Like Lord Farquar from Shrek (an acondrophasaic dwarf) decreeing that all in his realm shall have their lege amputated so nobody can dare to be taller than their LORD.

  23. “I believe that we, the masses, want to find leaders who truly love us.”

    Is it really important to have “leaders”? I don’t think of my pastor as “leader.”

  24. Yesterday morning, reading from the Evangelism Study Bible, I ran across a footnote that set me rejoicing: roughly paraphrased from memory is says that when a person trusts Christ for the forgiveness of their sins and are born again, they are baptized into the church right then and there by the Holy Spirit.

    So no matter how many fences the dude bros try to erect so they can define who is in and who is out, we have no need for their gated communities!

  25. Does it ever occur to these men that God is holy, and He is motivated by a holy love and empathy toward mankind?

    They seem to believe He is motivated by a holy justice. Maybe His justice is an outcome of his love and empathy toward His creation. He wants justice for all creation because of His love.

    How these men view God shapes everything they believe, what they teach and what they write. It shapes their low view of mankind and themselves. Their god is holy and justice, not love.

    Jesus is God in the flesh. Was Jesus motivated by justice? I think not. What we see represented to us in Jesus looks nothing like a god consumed with a holy justice, although He came to provide justice for the world. Instead we see Jesus who loves, cares, heals, provides and lays down His life in person.

    They seem to have things backwards. They need Jesus.

  26. Cynthia W.: Is it really important to have “leaders”? I don’t think of my pastor as “leader.”

    He should be a friend who loves and cares for you as you also do for him.

  27. Bridget: He should be a friend who loves and cares for you as you also do for him.

    That sounds about right. He’s a little dotty and exasperating sometimes, but very good and kind, always telling the congregation to love and forgive one another, to love God, to pray and have faith.

  28. Doubtful: The problem with the gospel gang is they add to the biblical text …

    New Calvinism would not exist without eisegesis … taking text out of context, twisting Scripture to support their theology, misinterpreting Bible passages to read into it their own ideas. It’s the stuff that cults are made of.

  29. marco,

    This rings true for me. They appear scared of ordinary human decency, goodness & love, & cringe away from it, preferring cold structures rather than a warm embrace.

    It’s as though they move away from the light. What this is rooted in, or what it says about them I don’t know, but I can’t imagine a single one of them throwing their arms around someone suffering & just caring for them, rather than handing them a list of membership requirements. There is nothing, nothing, attractive about what they preach.

  30. Ken F (aka Tweed): They miss the part about his holiness being grounded in his love.

    New Calvinists can’t preach holiness nor love, because they are not holy nor loving. They have proven that over and over.

  31. Ken F (aka Tweed): The ancient liturgies call God the lover of mankind. The TGC liturgies call him the loather of mankind.

    This is truly the case. Their version of love would not be recognised by non-Christians where Jesus talks about love as something that non-Christians can see in us & that they have among themselves.

  32. Connie Gould: They are wolves and false prophets seeking to protect their power, authority and prestige by abusing/discrediting others and then silencing them.

    “The prophets prophesy falsely,
    And the priests rule on their own authority;
    And My people love to have it so!
    But what will you do when the end comes?” (Jeremiah 5:31)

    New Calvinism would not exist if it weren’t for nonspiritual followers supporting the movement … they “love to have it so!”

  33. From the main article up-top:

    “I’ve seen people who have been abused being told by pastors that they contributed to the abuse and that they are sinners as well.”

    I remember an apocryphal story about a four year old girl (in one of those neo-cal enclaves) who was forced to sit down across from her molester and ‘forgive him’, telling her all the while that she’s a ‘sinner’ too.
    Words cannot convey the anger and outrage that boiled out of me along with every cuss-word in the book.

  34. CMT:

    But seriously, how silly is it to pick up a book that is explicitly about the antidote to “corrupt pastors and toxic churches” and then complain that that’s what the authors focus on?

    I would call that a subconscious confession.

  35. Samuel Conner: The Practical Theology departments of many seminaries need to be reconfigured.

    A critical component of a desperately needed religious deconstruction in America.

    A genuine move of God on the other side of 2 Chronicles 7:14 would flush bad theology, but I don’t see much movement by the people of God to humble themselves, pray, repent, and seek God as they ought … so the beat goes on.

  36. Meredithwiggle: If you can convince somebody that they are hopelessly sinful and can’t even trust their own thoughts, feelings, and intuition, then it’s quite easy to convince them that they need to trust you to tell them what to do, how to think, and how to atone for all their sins.

    On the other hand, if you treat someone as if they already were what they could be in Christ, that’s what they will become. Jesus is the missing ingredient in the New Calvinist formula for doing church.

  37. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    McKnight points out that what modern-day Evs call “the gospel” is actually a summary of protestant soteriology. In NT terms, “the gospel” is the news of the imminent reassertion of YHWH’s kingly rule over Israel (John and Jesus), or the assertion that “Jesus is the King through whom YHWH is asserting His rule over Israel (“the twelve” from Pentecost onward) and over the nations of the Mediterranean littoral (Paul).

    McKnight wrote a book, The King Jesus Gospel , about the implications of the original gospel proclamation for present-day thinking. I haven’t read it, but I’m impressed with another of McKnight’s books, Reading Romans Backwards . Perhaps The King Jesus Gospel could help with de-/re-construction.

  38. There are so many outstanding insightful comments here it’s hard to grasp it all!

    The thing that bothers me is the underlying theology working behind the TGC/Neo-Calvinist mentality. I wonder if many or most of the TGC group are functioning deists? Rare is the reference to the Holy Spirit or to Jesus in any practical sense.

    Jesus is presented so often and strongly – either directly or indirectly – as being submissive to the Sovereign God, and the Spirit to Jesus. It’s as though they regard Jesus himself as some sort of divine or semi-divine deist in relation to the Sovereign God.

    And the Holy Spirit? Where is the Spirit? Is the fact that the Scriptures often refer to the Spirit in feminine ways somehow repulsive to TGC/Neo Calvinist folks? Does the double submissiveness of the Spirit imply he/she/it needs direction? The TGC pastors and writers don’t seem to have any confidence in the Spirit to form and build up a community of human believers.

    Again… is Jesus and the Holy Spirit so submissive that the TGC/Neo Calvinist pastors have to provide the direction and control over the people of the Sovereign God? Has the Sovereign God ordained and decreed things, gone on sabbatical, leaving the TGC pastors to direct and control everything Christianly on earth? Much of their writing and speaking suggests this.

    I’m just asking questions based on the TGC/Neo-Calvinist materials I’ve read, like this review of Tov. What concerns me is that if Jesus and His Paraclete are viewed as submissive and ineffectual in earthly life, then we can miss how God reveals His love and grace and mercy to us, and misunderstand how God relates to us. And the door is thrown open for any narcissistic or power-driven man (or woman) to church leadership.

    In the meantime, what can we do about this – if anything? I have my own thoughts, but this is already too long.

  39. Samuel Conner,

    Samuel, The King Jesus Gospel would definitely help, along with N.T. Wright’s first 3 Christian Origins books: The New Testament and the People of God, Jesus and the Victory of God, The Resurrection of the Son of God. Those will help a person find the actual good news that the first Christians announced. It’s significantly different than what Evangelicalism says is the good news.

    Dana

  40. A slightly different take, but I prefer public debates like these, where arguments can be made and reviewed by any who are interested. It has a long tradition in the church (i.e., the fathers engaged in this regularly).

  41. 1. There’s nobody within the ranks of TGC who has the theological chops to teach Scot McKnight anything, period end of sentence.

    2. I’ve had coffee a few times with Scot at an annual pastors’ conference we used to attend. He is a kind and generous person who actually listens to you. He left Willow Creek several years before the blow-up. He not only saw the blow-up coming, but also wanted to be Anglican ever since his study days in England, but couldn’t be Episcopalian. When ACNA got its footing, he went in. He’s an ordained deacon. I’m sure part of TGC’s objection to his ideas, though more implicit than explicit, is that he’s “high church” and is not put off by worship involving ritual. (And what worship doesn’t? Ritual is what humans do to enable us to make sense of and participate in that which is transcendent. All churches have ritual, it’s just that “low-church” ritual is very simplistic – just try to change the order of worship!)

    3. The trajectory of theology in the west from the High Middle Ages onward sharpened the focus on God’s will, until the Reformation and the character of the thought of the Renaissance & Enlightenment in general made God’s will the whole point of his being. That’s a large part of the reason why Protestants (not all, but most, and especially strong Calvinists) tend to be fixated on breaking God’s law as the major problem of humanity.

    As Samuel noted, the prayers in the Eastern Church nearly always end with the phrase “for You are good and love mankind”. Our main predicament is seen to be death, which is intricately tied to sin – see Heb 2. The Incarnation is not “plan B” – God wished to become appropriately united with humans from the beginning, and knew all that would happen and what would be required to release mankind from death and the fear thereof that impels us to sin. To me, God’s humility – Christ on the Cross – is the greatest proof of his love and shatters all the legalism TGC or anyone else tries to claim is God’s ultimate concern.

    Dana

  42. Dee,

    Would you be willing to divulge which episode of Star Trek it was? I am a curious OS fan!

    Dana

  43. GEFS!

    I think this criticism…

    McKnight and Barringer do not mention church discipline in their proposal, nor do they present a process for evaluating accusations of abuse or other serious sin within a congregation.

    … is a bit like complaining that Jesus, while fostering suspicion of people who swallow camels, does not provide a robust theological process for ensuring that devout people do not become unclean by inadvertently swallowing dead insects in their wine.

  44. CMT: Now if only they would write a field guide to finding a “church called tov…”

    Following the yellow brick road to Tov will require believers to take 2 Chronicles 7:14 seriously. Humility, prayer, repentance, and seeking God (rather than man) will go a long way to getting back on course. If/when they do these things, either individually or corporately, Christians will discover that the divine purpose for which the Church was created is embedded in the New Testament. To go forward, we must first go back. Tov is not in the future, it is in the past. We need to rediscover it.

  45. dainca: There’s nobody within the ranks of TGC who has the theological chops to teach Scot McKnight anything, period end of sentence.

    And everybody shouted AMEN!!

  46. dainca: [The suggested books] will help a person find the actual good news that the first Christians announced. It’s significantly different than what Evangelicalism says is the good news.

    The good news: God’s kingship is here.

    The Gospel™: God hates you for being born. But for just a tenth of your income, plus other gifts both financial and in kind as determined by our God-appointed discretion, you can escape His rage.

  47. dainca: There’s nobody within the ranks of TGC who has the theological chops to teach Scot McKnight anything, period end of sentence.

    I am no fan of TGC, so please don’t misunderstand me, but no one – esp. our favorite/beloved theological leaders, regardless of who they are – should be beyond the point of learning from someone they disagree with. And yes, that includes TGC/9M, whose fanboys probably say the same phrase as you but apply it in the other direction.

  48. dainca: TGC’s objection to his ideas

    The New Calvinists object/reject the ideas of anyone who is not in their camp. They believe that they alone are keepers of the true gospel (gospel = Calvinism) and all dissenters to their belief and practice are reprobates. It’s straight out of Calvin’s Geneva! McKnight is not part of the predestined elect because he is not one of ‘them.’ It really is that simple with the TGC dudebros … but it is stinkin’ thinkin’ before God.

  49. dainca: the actual good news that the first Christians announced

    “Behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for ALL the people. For this day in the city of David there has been born for YOU a Savior, who is Christ the Lord (the Messiah).” (Luke 2:10-11)

    New Calvinism is not good news of great joy for ALL people.

  50. ...presumably via news outlets or social media.This makes the court of public opinion the arbiter of “the truth” and dispenser of proper “discipline” for those within the church

    Aye, right. Cause they bampots an’ their sock-puppet pals’ll dispense “truth” an’ a’.

    They can pure try that ower here. We’ll send ’em hamewards tae think again, by the way.

  51. John Smith: I wonder if many or most of the TGC group are functioning deists? Rare is the reference to the Holy Spirit or to Jesus in any practical sense.

    No doubt that some are functioning deists … some are antinomians. If you listen closely to the average New Calvinist sermon, you will hear a lot about “God”, with only occasional mention of Jesus, and hardly a word about the Holy Spirit. New Calvinist icons (e.g., Piper) get more airtime than Jesus! They have subordinated Jesus and relegated the Holy Spirit to the back pew. Their faith is largely an intellectual pursuit, rather than a personal journey with Christ. Thinking they are keepers of the one true gospel, most don’t know Jesus, IMO.

  52. dainca:
    Dee,

    Would you be willing to divulge which episode of Star Trek it was? I am a curious OS fan!

    I was watching Star trek and reading a magazine story about a bunch of kids becoming Christians in Rye, New York, causing an upset in the community. At the end of the episode, Kirk, Spock, and Doc were goofing on the bridge and then they looked out at the stars. I suddenly realized that my interest in science fiction and astronomy stemmed from my inability to figure out where this all came from. Then it hit me. The God who created the stars loved me. I changed at the very moment and I remember it as if it were yesterday. I don’t remember the episode, just the scene on the bridge. Maybe I should go back and watch the old episodes. I might remember.

    Dana

  53. Nick Bulbeck: The Gospel™: God hates you for being born. But for just a tenth of your income, plus other gifts both financial and in kind as determined by our God-appointed discretion, you can escape His rage.

    How is that different from paying Protection Money?
    Or appeasing a demon with tribute and sacrifice?

    Another effect of this (and fire-and-brimstone preaching) is it locks in at the bottom tier of moral development:
    The Toddler Level, i.e. Avoid Punishment At All Costs.
    ALL. COSTS.
    Lying, Betrayal, Destroying the Scapegoat, Anything Goes so You Don’t Get Punished. And you’l focus on the most immediate threat of Punishment.

    Let’s take a look at the fruit of being stuck at that toddler level of moral development:

    In Left Behind Imagery, You Take The Mark and betray/turn in/exterminate all those who Do Not. Because The Beast holds the biggest visible Whip at the moment. After he goes down at Armageddon, you’ll switch sides to the New One Who Holds The Biggest Whip. AVOID PUNISHMENT.

    In QAnon Imagery, you kill your own children and suck out the Adrenochrome from their pineal glands that will prolong your own life. Because when your time finally runs out despite the Adrenochrome, God Gets To Punish You. PUT OFF BEING PUNISHED AS LONG AS AS POSSIBLE.

    Some fruit, huh?

  54. John Smith,

    “ The thing that bothers me is the underlying theology working behind the TGC/Neo-Calvinist mentality.”

    What the neo-Cals call the “gospel” really doesn’t include the true gospel…. the good news written in what is traditionally recognized as the gospel books: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. For the most part, they skip those books.
    They focus on the OT and the Pauline letters (and try to apply and use the laws of those times and places to today, IMO.) There is even an article on the TGC website entitled, “ The Gospel of Paul and the Gospel of the Kingdom.”

  55. Max: Their faith is largely an intellectual pursuit, rather than a personal journey with Christ.

    When everything becomes an Intellectual Game, everyone/everything else becomes just an Object.
    It’s a detachment from reality and humanity into your frontal lobes.

  56. Burwell Stark,

    No offense taken, Burwell. I get what you mean. Scot is actually the kind of person who values learning, even from someone with whom he might disagree. That’s just another thing that sets him apart from the TGC (or its leadership, in any case). All I’ve read of them expresses that they’re the only ones who can ever be Right.

    I’m not saying one has to be an academic to believe, or to understand what we need to understand about Jesus in order to give him our lives. One does not even need full mental capacity to love God and participate in the life of his love as a true Christian (contrary to what some Protestants in my experience believe: you need to be able to “make a decision for Christ” and you can’t do that if you don’t have a certain level of mental capacity).

    I do believe that, because of the 2000 year difference in cultures, the reality that most believers don’t read & understand Greek, and the sometimes vast divisions among Christians making different confessions sometimes seem in complete opposition to one another, and therefore resulting in confusion about what Christianity actually IS, it’s more important than ever for those who are able to do some studying. I’m acquainted with both Scot’s and his detractors’ academic theological credentials, and I reiterate that his detractors can’t hold a candle to him in this regard (including attitude about learning). Furthermore, contrary to the TGC folks, Scot is very respected among his academic peers – those who have studied as much, or beyond, what he has, and who are genuine faithful believers in Christ as the incarnate Son of God made Man, crucified, and resurrected bodily. There are actually quite a few of them out there 🙂

    Dana

  57. Cynthia W. on Thu Dec 16, 2021 at 11:47 AM said:

    “Is it really important to have “leaders”? I don’t think of my pastor as “leader.””
    +++++++++++++++++

    ‘tcha, no.

    for the last many years, if you were to scan a majority of christian publications broadcasts, and presentations for word content, here are the most frequently used words:

    gospel leaders leading with servant leadership as they lead

    christians have been tricked, exploited, indeed groomed to believe they *need* a leader like they need a phone, TV, or a car… (or like Karl Malden’s stern warning, “American Express Traveler’s Checks. Don’t Leave Home Without Them.”)

    gawdammit, no you don’t.

    this was decided around a conference table in a shady ‘christian’ conference room on Madison-Avenue-but-christian.

    Just like decisions are made for us on what we wear (the styles, the fabric, the hem length, the tie width…).

    All for the purpose of enriching related industries.

    i need a leader as much i need Father Sarducci’s Mr. Tea.

    (from his ’80s promotional spot on SNL’s Weekend Update – a Mr. Coffee without the coffee and a teacup with a purchased teabag in it instead of a pot)

    no, i *don’t* need to bring in a middleman to manage my faith and spirituality for me. (in order to create jobs and the demand for jobs for professional christians)

  58. dainca: (And what worship doesn’t? Ritual is what humans do to enable us to make sense of and participate in that which is transcendent. All churches have ritual, it’s just that “low-church” ritual is very simplistic – just try to change the order of worship!)

    RITUAL PROVIDES STRUCTURE.
    That’s one of the reasons I ended up back in the original Western-Rite Liturgical Church.

    Problem is, you have to find the balance point between Structure and Spontaneity. And that can differ from person to person, from situation to situation. Too much Structure becomes stifling Stasis (“dead ritual”); too much spontaneity becomes wild Chaos.

  59. elastigirl: christians have been tricked, exploited, indeed groomed to believe they *need* a leader like they need a phone, TV, or a car… (

    Like a fish needs a bicycle?

  60. Headless Unicorn Guy: elastigirl: christians have been tricked, exploited, indeed groomed to believe they *need* a leader like they need a phone, TV, or a car… (

    Like a fish needs a bicycle?

    Headless, no wonder these cults never mention honoring your God-given conscience . . . they wouldn’t want the Holy Spirit to get in the way of their ‘leadership’ grab . . . is it all about power and $ to these guyz???

  61. John Smith on Thu Dec 16, 2021 at 01:36 PM said:

    “Again… is Jesus and the Holy Spirit so submissive that the TGC/Neo Calvinist pastors have to provide the direction and control over the people of the Sovereign God?”
    +++++++++++++

    i perceive that such pastors simply don’t want to share the limelight with Jesus.

    they see Jesus as a competitor. a threat to their egos & power. just as women are their competitors and are threats to their egos & power.

    aside from that, they don’t know what to do with Jesus. There’s simply no money and no power in Jesus Christ.

    (Paul, on the other hand…)

  62. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): an article on the TGC website entitled, “ The Gospel of Paul and the Gospel of the Kingdom.”

    To New Calvinists, it’s as if Paul is the New Testament Messiah rather than Jesus.

  63. copied from top:

    “I have been blessed in my life. Despite the unusual start to my Christian life (It involved Star Trek), God was gracious enough to send me into the arms of some loving pastors and theologians. Joanne Hummel, Howard Keeley, Pete Briscoe, Wade Burleson, and now, my two warm and loving Lutheran pastors. ”

    Dee, I’m glad you mentioned Wade. I remember how he was so kind after my husband passed away and that meant so much to me. It seems to me that people will ALWAYS be more important to one another than their political and denominational differences,
    and that allows us to care for one another in a way that transcends differences and helps us to gather together around the foot of the Cross.

    I wanted to mention this, because you understand. Sometimes we have no words to explain. Wade will always be a person to whom I am grateful also.

  64. dainca,

    Thank you for the gracious response and I am glad you caught the spirit of what I meant. I am woefully ignorant of Scot’s work and willfully ignorant of TGC’s.

  65. elastigirl: aside from that, they don’t know what to do with Jesus. There’s simply no money and no power in Jesus Christ.

    Except as The Ultimate Celebrity Endorsement.

  66. Burwell Stark: but [naebdy] should be beyond the point of learning from someone they disagree with

    A good point. In the spirit of which, I want to give a wee shout out to Sam Storms. I’ve read a bit of his stuff and briefly swapped emails with him (he certainly wasn’t too busy to reply, in other words). I’m swithering over the word “disagree” in this context; certainly he’s walked a different path through Church than I have, and he’s come to some different conclusions from the Bible. But I enjoy reading his stuff, because his conclusions are always thoughtful, his arguments measured, and – most importantly – I’ve found him respectful towards folk who think differently.

  67. elastigirl: gospel leaders leading with servant leadership as they lead

    christians have been tricked, exploited, indeed groomed to believe they *need* a leader like they need a phone, TV, or a car…

    I was just gonna’ say, you (generic you) need them like you need a dose of the clap.

  68. elastigirl: they don’t know what to do with Jesus. There’s simply no money and no power in Jesus Christ.

    (Paul, on the other hand…)

    Oh yeah, they can make Paul say anything to support their theology. They twist his words all the time. They can’t do that with Jesus; they ain’t that bold … yet. That’s why they camp out in Paul’s epistles, but avoid the Gospels like Covid.

  69. elastigirl: such pastors simply don’t want to share the limelight with Jesus

    They refuse to give Jesus any authority and influence over His church. So, they have eternally subordinated Him and demanded that He not speak. Their stage is simply not big enough to share with Him.

  70. Max: They refuse to give Jesus any authority and influence over His church.So, they have eternally subordinated Him and demanded that He not speak.Their stage is simply not big enough to share with Him.

    AKA “I Have Exalted My Throne Above That of The Most High”?

  71. Muff Potter: I was just gonna’ say, you (generic you) need them like you need a dose of the clap.

    Well, based on recent reports, it might be the case that they go together…

  72. Nick Bulbeck: The Gospel™: God hates you for being born. But for just a tenth of your income, plus other gifts both financial and in kind as determined by our God-appointed discretion, you can escape His rage.

    One of their biggest problems, it seems to me, is their god is not Christlike. Their god cannot tolerate sinners whereas Jesus is a friend of sinners.

  73. Bridget: Maybe His justice is an outcome of his love and empathy toward His creation. He wants justice for all creation because of His love.

    The Hebrew words for justice and righteousness are so close that they are often swapped in translation. Their focus is on setting things right, putting things in the right order. They are much more related to grace than to punishment. His holy anger against sin is his eternal “NO!” toward anything that harms us. Like a parent yelling “NO!” when their child is about to do something dangerous.

  74. Max: If the “gospel boy” New Calvinists had ‘any’ empathy, they wouldn’t run roughshod over God’s people in their scorched-earth approach to taking over non-Calvinist churches.

    Them guys are like Sherman, burnin’ an’ pillagin’ his way through Georgia.
    Scorched Earth?
    That’s the general idea.

  75. Headless Unicorn Guy: AKA “I Have Exalted My Throne Above That of The Most High”?

    Dangerous. Maybe, deadly.

    “Herod dressed himself in royal clothing, sat on the throne, and made a speech to them. The people shouted, ‘The voice of God, and not of a man!’ Immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he didn’t give God the glory. He was eaten by worms and died.” (Acts 12:20-23).

  76. Ava Aaronson,

    If only it was interpreted as such by everyone in today’s world. But it wouldn’t work well for controlling the masses. It invokes too much care and concern instead of fear.

  77. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    I’ve probably mentioned this before in Wartburg, but a now-retired former minister of ours once observed that the only truly holy man who ever lived was also the most compellingly attractive to sinners.

  78. Nick Bulbeck: the only truly holy man who ever lived was also the most compellingly attractive to sinners.

    Many (most? all?) Calvinists and evangelicals misquote Hab 1:13 (“Your eyes are too pure to look at evil”) to claim that God cannot tolerate to see or be in the presence of sin and evil (proof text for why God had to forsake Jesus on the cross). Which of course means Jesus is not God.

  79. Ava Aaronson: ‘The voice of God, and not of a man!’ Immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he didn’t give God the glory. He was eaten by worms and died.” (Acts 12:20-23).

    NeoCal’s worm theology will eventually turn on them

  80. Ken F (aka Tweed): Which of course means Jesus is not God.

    To HyperCalvinists, God is not God.
    Eyebrow-deep in Socratic Atheism.
    Because if God can only do what He hath been Predestined to do, God is not God, Predestination/Fate is.
    “Eh, Kismet.”

  81. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    That is a Great point…. They are ultimately, denying the divinity of Christ.. sigh…. I am so tired of keaders that act like they have “all the answers”..

  82. Ava Aaronson,

    Julie Roys’s new podcast is on the subject, “Are we addicted to leaders?”

    It looks like I’m on the cutting edge of a new trend!

  83. Ken F (aka Tweed): Many (most? all?) Calvinists and evangelicals misquote Hab 1:13 (“Your eyes are too pure to look at evil”) to claim that God cannot tolerate to see or be in the presence of sin and evil (proof text for why God had to forsake Jesus on the cross). Which of course means Jesus is not God.

    You know what their stuff really makes me think of?
    A Dr. Seuss book.

  84. McNick McBulbeck:
    ...presumably via news outlets or social media.This makes the court of public opinion the arbiter of “the truth” and dispenser of proper “discipline” for those within the church

    Aye, right. Cause they bampots an’ their sock-puppet pals’ll dispense “truth” an’ a’.

    They can pure try that ower here. We’ll send ’em hamewards tae think again, by the way.

    It cannae be The Corries yer quoting’ cos it wiz the English that goat sent packin’ tae think again and it couldnae hae been the 1715 rammy up by Ben Cleuch furr that wiz a draw.

  85. Dee,
    What would you argue is being taught in 1 Corinthians 6 and at what point does it not apply either in light of disqualification or emergency/ safety concerns?

  86. Jeffrey Chalmers: I am so tired of keaders that act like they have “all the answers”.

    For all their emphasis on sound exegesis, they can be very sloppy with the actual texts.

  87. Muff Potter: You know what their stuff really makes me think of?
    A Dr. Seuss book.

    It has to be Fox in Socks. They twist scripture as badly as Dr Swiss twists tounges with that book.

  88. Jeremy,

    I think you are referring to the part regarding fleeing sexual immorality. I’m not sure what question we are discussing here. Let me start it off by giving you an example. At Bent Tree Church in Texas, a man in the congregation had an affair with a consenting member in the congregation. His wife had a number of kids. He was asked to leave the church QUIETLY since he shacked up with his paramour.The church helped to support his wife.

    During some period of time, some elders who were friendly with him would visit him and kept the doors open. Eventually, this man repented, his wife accepted him back and the two of them got up before the congregation and told their story.

    Most church discipline warriors would have had him stand up before the church at the start. Instead, quiet intervention made a difference. I have serious doubts that the marriage would have been repaired if the church had done a big, fat “tell it to the church” night. Instead, he eventually told it to the church with his wife by his side.

    If this is not what you were asking, I’m sorry.

  89. Headless Unicorn Guy: To HyperCalvinists, God is not God.
    Eyebrow-deep in Socratic Atheism.
    Because if God can only do what He hath been Predestined to do, God is not God, Predestination/Fate is.
    “Eh, Kismet.”

    If everything is predestined, why would God even matter?

  90. I have a question that I would like to throw out for feedback. A lot is made of the weekly sermon with TGC and other groups but the early church service was centered around the Lord’s supper. My wife is Catholic and when we attend her church , the Eucharist is central too. My church , Baptist has it quarterly. Do you think that we Protestants have it backwards and thr focus should be less on the sermon and more of a celebration of thr Lord’s supper?

  91. dee:
    Jeremy,

    I’m not sure what question we are discussing here.

    I think the q about 1 Cor. 6is likely related to the first seven verses and the things that are to be decided “before the saints“, with that being connected to Matthew 18. Here’s a previous thought from when this issue came up before.

    The initial scenario in the Matthew 18 case appears to describe both a relative equality of participants at a key level (brother to brother), and something in which an internal matter between two Christian siblings as it were had occurred. For contrast, the Greek addition ‘eis se’ is widely translated “against you”. What is written in 1 Cor. 6 also appears to correspond to internal confrontation of a personal dispute or matter (Gr. pragma). In this case, the result of not going to an earthly authority appears to at worst represent someone being wronged (Gr. adikeisthe) or defrauded/cheated (Gr. apostereisthe).

    One may conclude that context seems to strongly indicate personal tort matters between siblings as it were. Also adding perspective is the goal in Matthew 18 of being heard and gaining a brother, implying this is in large measure a matter of fellowship, which may lead to calling into question its use as a uniform dispute settling of criminal matters. Again, looking at the end result, the penalty as it were in this case is a loss of fellowship (being treated as a heathen or tax collector). Does that sound like the way a criminal situation, let’s say involving sexual assault, would be settled?

    Scores of stories on this blog and others do not appear reducible to the Matthew 18 and 1 Cor. 6 process. Many do fit rendering unto Caesar and turning things over to civil leaders who per Romans 13:4 do not bear the sword in vain, from physical and spiritual abuse to frauds financial and otherwise. And too often, the insulation provided to grievous wolves in sheep’s clothing from within 501c3 autocratic echo chambers cannot be penetrated through counting on the good graces of said grievous wolves.

    And even if the one doing the wronging is not a wolf but someone in authority with lapses in judgment, Scripture makes clear (1 Tim 3, Titus 1 for starters) there are standards of blamelessness and being above reproach to be met and maintained. It is common sense, as they are to represent Christianity to all including the world, for as Paul notes in Romans 2:24 when quoting the Old Testament: As it has been written: “For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you.” Thus, even the leaders who aren’t false but in error are subject to correction and — brace yourselves — removal from leadership and authority, even if they’re “ordained”.

    Used wisely, blogs like this give voices to people in situations that call for it. They even allow for people to offer context, including from Scripture, when such context is lacking while charges — vague and otherwise — and strawmen come against such blogs.

  92. ChuckP,

    Since I have become a conservative Lutheran, I have begun to see that all the elements of the service, including the Eucharist, confession, the passing of the peace, prayer for the people of our church and elsewhere, etc are terribly important.

  93. “By focusing on examples of pastoral malpractice without presenting the normative biblical practice for dealing with disputes and serious sin within the community, the authors foster suspicion and distrust of church membership covenants, pastoral admonitions, and appeals to Scripture as self-serving “spin.””

    As far as not “presenting the normative biblical practice“ as an issue, here are a couple of thoughts:

    1. How many of these churches are presenting the complete and sufficient picture to those under which they would later seek to exert levels of control and discipline through “membership“ and a “covenant“? Are they presenting sufficient information as far as the legal consequences therein?

    One doesn’t even need to look at the scores of stories on the site over the years to draw that into question, especially when many of these institutions don’t even put (too often, quite restrictive) covenants online or allowed them to be perused (and prayed about), with those interested potentially being subjected to isolation and pressure via the form of mandated “classes“ to learn more. How biblical is it to chill and cast as problematic people’s suspicions and mistrust of instruments under which wolves and hirelings can — and reportedly have — exert all sorts of levels of thievery and abuse? Doesn’t the biblical exhortation related to approaches in certain situations akin to serpents and doves speak to such things?

    How “biblical“ is it to restrict access to such binding written agreements? If one accepts the biblical premise of hirelings and grievous wolves that target the flock, how biblical is it to pass off as a normative biblical practice what might amount to a sales pitch in which people believe they are giving up rights or are told that later after they are faced with the implications of what they signed? I mean, aren’t people are warned all the time in society – – rightly so – – to be very careful about what they put in writing, and often to have other people including competent counsel review it, especially when it may involve personal obligations and significant money?

    Shouldn’t such cautions about the hirelings and grievous wolves be an essential part — or “marks“ — of a biblical church, as well as mechanisms of transparency, accountability, and oversight towards that end? And if they aren’t versus potential priorities of affirming centralized power and revenue support without sufficient safeguards and cautions, what might that indicate?

  94. 2. How many times is the “normative biblical practice” envisioned in Matthew 18 even possible in TGC affiliated-churches and others? Let’s take the first step of the “biblical practice“ that some seem to imply needs no further contextualization:

    “And if your brother sins against you, go reprove him, between you and him alone.”

    In what scenario can one say that “covenanted“ church members are able to go either to another church member or a church “leader“ in a truly one-to-one biblical manner and have it just be between them? Are there not potential legal implications with just about every scenario, especially when a Christian Industrial Complex – type entity and / or its staff or “members” are involved? This is even before we enter into the restrictive nature of such membership / covenant pacts as well as NDA involvement that may occur.

    One may guess that if there was a church that put in their “covenant“, bylaws, constitution, employment contracts, trustee documentation, and so forth — in extremely clear and legally-affirming language — that at no part of the one-to-one interaction that the one having something “against“ him / her could be subject to retaliation etc., one might get close to the “normative biblical practice“ being cited. And yet, given the number of times that one has to cite legal protections, doesn’t it already carry the present and future potential to fly into lawyer / Caesar / Romans territory, even if everything is espoused as above?

    Please tell me how these registered legal entities — often involving hundreds of thousands or tens of millions of dollars — could somehow step out of that (perhaps akin to a child closing his eyes and pretending everything disappears), forestall these realities (especially with written, binding “covenants“ enacted), and completely remove them from looming over each one-to-one action. Also tell me how many of these entities would be inclined to do that.

    I do believe that a normative biblical practice is having one’s yes be yes and one’s no be no. Can someone show a New Testament church’s “normative biblical practice” that exceeds that as a sufficient level of church covenanting? Can someone show why that would not be a biblically sufficient level of protection for the individual as far as being under no further obligation other than that which he or she is willing to subject himself or herself? In other words, if they are refusing church correction / discipline, doesn’t that have to wrap it up as far as what the church can do in and of itself other than disfellowship, with matters closer to the civil and criminal realm having to be handled in those realms under existing laws and statutes and before the proper officials?

    The ultimate conclusion of the personal interaction of the church / ekklēsia with the brother having sinned / transgressed against another appears to point to just that. Wouldn’t treating someone as a “publican and a tax collector“ per Matthew 18:17 be affirming their no being no as far as repentance and continued fellowship? Per 1 Cor. 5:12-13: “For what is it to me to judge those outside? Do you not judge those within? But God will judge those outside. “Expel the evil out from among yourselves.””

    Going beyond this into “they signed up for this discipline, your honor, so that’s why we ignored their cease-and-desist requests and decided to involve their friends, their workplace, and their family as well” territory appears to have massively problematic potential. At that point, they look to already be in the legal arena and in the province of rendering unto Caesar and Romans 13. Thus, insisting on the rights to exercise discipline against one’s will as well as trying to impact what somebody says or does not say might not appear to be quite the straightforward “normative biblical practice“ as it may be cast by some.

  95. ChuckP on Fri Dec 17, 2021 at 07:51 PM said:

    “…Do you think that we Protestants have it backwards and thr focus should be less on the sermon and more of a celebration of thr Lord’s supper?”
    +++++++++

    well, all i know is the sermon as main event is impractical. people are tired from their work week. They may try to pay attention, but a sermon that’s more than 15 minutes and people are zoning out.

    after church in the parking lot, bring a roving mic and ask anyone what the sermon was about — most will only have a vague idea.

    if the pastor spent a lot of time preparing during the week, kudos for doing the work themself, but I can’t see that it’s a good use of time and resources.

    i think the reason sermons continue to be the main event is down to:

    *tradition for tradition’s sake

    *it’s what the ‘giving units’ expect (and need to keep them coming back)

    *lack of imagination on everyone’s part, clergy and lay

    *TGCers are so wrapped up in ‘biblical’.

    *if preaching and sermons are in the bible, then in order to be biblical there must be preaching and sermons.

    *the church leadership is essentially using the congregation so the leaders can be biblical

    .
    .
    it matters not if it’s helpful, if it’s practical, if people are even able able to pay attention for that long a time.

    what matters is ‘biblical’. because in practice, that’s what saves.

    if one is not biblical, it’s curtains.

    because in practice, Jesus is irrelevant.

  96. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): If everything is predestined, why would God even matter?

    Good question.
    Just so he (God) can be the biggest and baddess bogey-man in the sky, and make sure everything pans out just as he ordained it?

  97. ChuckP: Do you think that we Protestants have it backwards and thr focus should be less on the sermon and more of a celebration of thr Lord’s supper?

    I attend a small Lutheran congregation in which the Liturgy and the Eucharist receives top billing.
    The ‘sermon’ plays second fiddle so to speak, and it’s really just a short homily.
    In my opinion, there is no right or wrong way, it just boils down to whatever floats your boat.
    I’m a firm believer in freedom of religion.

  98. Cynthia W.: Are we addicted to leaders?”

    It looks like I’m on the cutting edge of a new trend!

    Snap.

    However, age old problem. Israel demanded a king.

    Jesus, and then the Holy Spirit, have filled the human void that craves a king.

    “Walk by the Spirit and you will not have to follow the desires of the flesh.”

  99. ChuckP: A lot is made of the weekly sermon with TGC and other groups but the early church service was centered around the Lord’s supper.

    A laddie fae New Zealand by the name of Don Barry, who wrote a book on his own experiences as an associate pastor serving under a bullying and self-important senior pastor, put it more strongly. He described the centrality of the sermon as “chumming the water for narcissists”.

    We’ve been attending a local Nanglican congregation in the last few months precisely because we wanted to take part in services where the bread and wine were central. The sermon is only 5-10 minutes long. One thing we’ve noticed there is how much exhortation and encouragement the rector is able to give in that short time. The liturgy does not, on the other hand, give either him or his preaching any special prominence; oddly enough, this is to my mind a much more honest attempt at the idea of “servant leadership” than we’re used to seeing in preacher-centred church. Indeed, his role is a lot more about serving than it is about leading.

    Another thing we’ve noticed is the subtle way in which scripture itself is given prominence. There are three readings at every service, and they are given separately from the sermon (and by a member of the congregation).

  100. Nick Bulbeck on Fri Dec 17, 2021 at 11:45 PM said:

    “The liturgy does not, on the other hand, give either him or his preaching any special prominence; oddly enough, this is to my mind a much more honest attempt at the idea of “servant leadership” than we’re used to seeing in preacher-centred church.

    Indeed, his role is a lot more about serving than it is about leading.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    he has me at hello.

  101. Muff Potter: Just so he (God) can be the biggest and baddess bogey-man in the sky, and make sure everything pans out just as he ordained it?

    Well, we all know that quality of leadership is directly proportional to the degree the leader micromanages. So it makes perfect sense for the Ultimate Leader to be the Ultimate Micromanager, where no subatomic particle’s state is left to chance. Or as RC Sproul said:

    I like to explain it this way: if there is one molecule in the universe running loose, outside of the control of God’s sovereignty, what I like to call “one maverick molecule,” then the practical implication for us as Christians is that we have no guarantee whatsoever that any future promise God has made to His people will come to pass.

    The obvious corollary is the worst type of leadership is empowering subordinates through delegation and mentoring. Mostly because there is no glory in letting subordinates take credit for their successes.

  102. elastigirl: *if preaching and sermons are in the bible, then in order to be biblical there must be preaching and sermons.

    And we know that every sermon in the NT is long and expository.

    This quote is attributed to Mark Twain: “I didn’t have time to write you a short letter, so I wrote you a long one.”

  103. ChuckP: A lot is made of the weekly sermon with TGC and other groups but the early church service was centered around the Lord’s supper.

    It would take some creativity for New Calvinists to find even more ways to be disconnected from early Christianity. Very little from early Christianity survived in New Calvinist and evangelical churches.

  104. Nick Bulbeck: The sermon is only 5-10 minutes long.

    The brevity of the homily (and the corresponding diminution of the effort required to prepare it) surely frees the pastor to spend more time in face-to-face interaction with individuals in the flock. And I imagine that there is expectation that he will do this.

    It’s a more human way to be a pastor.

    “I was sick and you looked after me; I was in prison and you came to visit me”, etc.

    It’s probably a safer way, at multiple levels, to be a pastor, too.

  105. Lowlandseer: It cannae be The Corries yer quoting’ cos it wiz the English that goat sent packin’ tae think again and it couldnae hae been the 1715 rammy up by Ben Cleuch furr that wiz a draw.

    Where do I sign up for this language class???? 🙂

  106. Ken F (aka Tweed): Very little from early Christianity survived in New Calvinist and evangelical churches.

    This seems a bit unfair. Take SBC, for example. They may have driven out discernible manifestations of the work of the Spirit, but they did keep the Corinthian precedent of weekly group meals.

  107. Ken F (aka Tweed): The obvious corollary is the worst type of leadership is empowering subordinates through delegation and mentoring. Mostly because there is no glory in letting subordinates take credit for their successes.

    I would venture to say that most subordinate underlings who work quietly when doing the right thing, have no desire to receive ‘glory’ and fanfare.

  108. Dee,

    Thanks so much for that nugget of your story. I will be watching the old episodes more attentively now!

    You might remember these Orthodox Christmas hymns from your childhood; or if not, here they are for your holiday cheer:

    Thy Nativity, Oh Christ our God, has shone to the world the light of wisdom;
    for by it those who worshiped the stars
    were taught by a star to worship Thee, the Sun of Righteousness,
    and to know Thee, the Dayspring from on high.
    Oh Lord, glory to Thee!

    Thou wast born secretly in a cave, but heaven spoke through a star
    and proclaimed Thee unto all, Oh Savior;
    and it brought to Thee Magi, who worshiped Thee with faith.
    Have mercy on them, and on us.

    The Magi were the “first fruits” of the nations, already worshiping the infant Christ. And in Orthodoxy, because of various Scripture passages, (and because astronomic bodies simply don’t move the way this star would have had to have moved) the star is believed to have been an angel.

    Merry Christmas, pats to Holly and the rest, and hoping and praying your mom will be home soon.

    Dana

  109. Friend,

    I couldn’t resist replying to Nick, an honorary and honourable Scotsman.

    The Corries were a Scottish folk duo who wrote and sang “O Flower of Scotland” – which commemorates Robert the Bruce’s victory over the English army at the Battle of Bannockburn – “sending them home to think again”. As you will see from the lyrics it is romantically and fervently nationalistic and absolutely terrifying when you hear it sung by 50000 Scotland football supporters (The Tartan Army).

    The 1715 rammy was the Battle of Sheriffmuir between Jacobite and Government forces that ended in stalemate, although the Government side won because they stopped the Jacobites from heading towards England.

    Anyway, to the song – and please stand to attention when you read it..
    “O flower of Scotland
    When will we see your like again
    That fought and died for
    Your wee bit hill and glen
    And stood against him
    Proud Edward’s army
    And sent him homeward
    Tae think again

    The hills are bare now
    And autumn leaves lie thick and still
    O’er land that is lost now
    Which those so dearly held
    And stood against him
    Proud Edward’s army
    And sent him homeward
    Tae think again

    Those days are passed now
    And in the past they must remain
    But we can still rise now
    And be the nation again
    That stood against him
    Proud Edward’s army
    And sent him homeward
    Tae think again”

  110. Ava Aaronson: Jesus, and then the Holy Spirit, have filled the human void that craves a king.

    When the King of Kings and Lord of Lords enters your life, you have no reason to crave a king.

  111. Muff Potter on Sat Dec 18, 2021 at 11:23 AM said:

    “I would venture to say that most subordinate underlings who work quietly when doing the right thing, have no desire to receive ‘glory’ and fanfare.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    ‘right’ in doing the right thing is its own reward.

    …and then christian culture scams such honest individuals to do it wearing a leash held by the hierarchy.

  112. Samuel Conner: but they did keep the Corinthian precedent of weekly group meals.

    Yes, that was a nice one to keep out the few they retained. I think a good logical next step of things to get rid of is the NT since protestants use exactly the same NT as those filthy roman papists. Especially since it was canonized in the late 4th century by an apostate church who believed and practiced all kinds of things rejected by protestants.

  113. Ken F (aka Tweed): Very little from early Christianity survived in New Calvinist and evangelical churches.

    Am wondering if THIS might be true for the evangelical who told me that the definition of ‘the gospel’ had nothing to do with the four Holy Gospels in sacred Scripture. I tried for some time to get a ‘definition’ of what ‘the gospel’ meant in the evangelical community.

    Some of the responses were strange. Some were concerning. And some were frightening to me in a way that took a long time for me to make sense of.

    Your comment resonates with my own experiences, but I wish it wasn’t true because a lot of the evangelicals I learned from also gave decent witness to Christ the Lord. Perhaps it is only a ‘sub-group’ that wandered so far from ancient Church?
    I don’t know what happened to their Christology, but my guess is that their ‘God of Wrath’ appears more satanic than ‘of Christ’. My opinion only. Not worth much in helping to sort things out, no.

  114. Ava Aaronson: However, age old problem.

    Yes, we humans don’t really come up with any new bad ideas. That’s discouraging in some ways, but reassuring in others.

  115. christiane: Perhaps it is only a ‘sub-group’ that wandered so far from ancient Church?

    I’ve moved all over the country in the last 40 years and experienced pretty much the same thing in all of the evangelical churches we’ve been a part of. In all cases there was very little connection with ancient Christianity except for the NT, acceptence (sometimes with reluctance) of a few ancient creeds, church on Sunday mornings, baptism (not for infants, and only one dunk), corporate prayers (which were often in the “Jesus weejus” form) and a monthly or quarterly shot of grape juice with crackers. I was pretty shocked when I started investigating ancient Christianity. Now I don’t known where I fit.

  116. christiane: I don’t know what happened to their Christology, but my guess is that their ‘God of Wrath’ appears more satanic than ‘of Christ’.

    Unwrathing God is one of the biggest hurdles for evangelicals because of how intensely we’ve been indoctrinated with the “truth” that God is so holy and we are so unholy that he can only pour out wrath on us unless someone else absorbs/satisfies it for us. John MacArthur captured this well when he wrote: “the ultimate reality is that believers have been saved from God.” Evangelicals are not taught that God is Christlike.

  117. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    Wow. “Unwrathing” God. I haven’t heard it put quite that way before but it captures exactly what I’m doing at present. It’s a bit frightening, actually. I used to hear what I’m doing now condemned as “picking and choosing what Scripture to believe,” or “making God in your own image,” or “not taking the Bible seriously.” Any of those sins made one perhaps Lukewarm, and definitely Liberal!

  118. CMT: “Unwrathing” God.

    I did not invent the term – learning about it has been revolutionary for me. Try googling “unwrathing God” for some interesting links. And yes, it will get you accused of all kinds of things.

  119. The Holy Trinity is ONE GOD
    the Father (God)
    the Son (God)
    the Holy Spirit (God)

    it seems that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit share
    in the same divinity and the same essence
    AND THE SAME CHARACTER as God the Son

    It is not for nothing that ancient Church often refers to
    Christ as ‘The Revealer of God’

  120. dee,

    Thank you, Dee. I appreciate the church’s approach in that situation. I was specifically asking for your thoughts on the disputed quote from the book in terms of taking disputes before the Law rather than believers. I believe that is only referencing civil disputes but some churches seem to apply it generally even to criminal situations. What are your thoughts on that.

  121. JDV,

    JDV, I agree with you and the language supports that point. As I said in my reply to Dee, I believe 1 Cor. 6 is referencing Civil matters but is sometimes misapplied generally to be all matters within a church community including criminal matters and people including leadership lack the nuance to understand it correctly. This of course ignores the deliberate self-serving motives that are certainly there in some situations.

  122. Jeremy,

    Sorry about that. The Bible is explictly clear we are to obey the laws in our lands unless they go agains God’s law. That one ,itself, would be a great discussion. All criminal matters should go to the courts. The church can elect to take further action wuch as excommunicating a person who killed an innocent person.

    I might even argue that obeying the law of the land also applies to things like civil contracts, employment mandates, etc. Perhaps it means that we should try as hard as possible to live at peace with one another. But, I would also add that that peace could be had by the governement enforcing just laws.

    Then agaian, what consitutes just? Everytime I make one argument, I can see other sides.

    What are civil complaints that you think might be able to be handled inside the church? What happens if the parties disagree? Is it wrong to go to the court for final arbitration?

    You’ve goe me thinking about a new post after the holidays.

  123. dee: The Bible is explicitly clear we are to obey the laws in our lands unless they go against God’s law … All criminal matters should go to the courts.

    Indeed. It’s amazing how many churchgoers don’t get this. Sexual abuse is a crime, yet too many church leaders try to deal with this internally. In such cases, don’t call Pastor … call 911!

  124. And now: misdirection

    I refer to the art of the stage illusionist: that is, a range of techniques employed by magicians to direct the attention of the audience away from where the real trick is being performed. For instance: when a magician tells his/her audience to “watch carefully”, you can be pretty sure that the trick is either going on somewhere else, or that in fact it has already been done while you weren’t looking; or where you were looking for the wrong thing.

    The misdirection here, or one at least, is in the use of “church”. A healthy church; judging matters in the church; keeping it within the church; etc etc. But there’s no such thing as “a church”; there’s only the believers locally. This misdirection accomplished, the likes of TGC then switch true “Church” and a theo-political organisation separate from any outside control, and free to set its own doctrine and its own rules. For instance, what is “serious sin”? In the authoritarian para-church congregation, it’s the simple act of stating the biblical truth that elders should teach by example and live by the same standards of other believers. Or, what is “the church” in the phrase “determined by the church”? It is, of course, a self-perpetuating inner circle who, again, are not subject to any teaching, rebuking, correcting or training in righteousness other than what they themselves instigate.

    Of course, the idea of “a church” has been embedded among believers for many centuries now, to the point where it has, de facto, overwritten any historic or biblical notion of what the Church in [insert name of city or other meaningfully-described region] is.

  125. dee,

    A principle that I think is widely recognized in secular law institutions is that cases must not be tried by or before people who have conflicts of interest in the outcome. I don’t doubt that this principle is not universally conformed to, but it is agreed in principle.

    I don’t see how independent congregations could “try” disputes among members, except in the unlikely case that neither party had significant connections to the local congregational hierarchy.

    And, of course, in the case of a dispute between a member and the hierarchy …

    It may be that the Corinthian precedent is not highly relevant to church jurisprudence, at least in the context of independent congregations, in the present day.

  126. dee: Sorry about that. The Bible is explictly clear we are to obey the laws in our lands unless they go agains God’s law.

    dee: You’ve goe me thinking about a new post after the holidays.

    Good idea, it would be a great post, guaranteed to generate many lines of flux.
    The Bible explicitly states that homosexuals are to be executed.
    Since we don’t do this in our society, does it mean that we are against God?

  127. Muff Potter:
    Good idea, it would be a great post, guaranteed to generate many lines of flux.
    The Bible explicitly states that homosexuals are to be executed.
    Since we don’t do this in our society, does it mean that we are against God?

    If the lines of flux have to do with the Mosaic law / conditional covenant with the Israelites onto every other situation writ-large, I don’t know how great that’s going to be post-wise

  128. JDV: I don’t know how great that’s going to be post-wise

    Rational discourse is always a good thing regardless of the subject matter.
    If anything, we’d be able to agree that the current nation-state of Israel has found ways around the old Mosaic codes such that her people need never fear oversight by zealous religionists.

  129. Jeremy: 1 Cor. 6 is referencing Civil matters but is sometimes misapplied generally to be all matters within a church community including criminal matters and people including leadership lack the nuance to understand it correctly.

    Or DELIBERATELY “lacking the nuance”.
    Hard to “have nucance” something when you Personally Benefit from NOT having it.
    And you even have BIBLE to justify your rigidity – Does GOD bend the knee to SATAN?

  130. CMT: Any of those sins made one perhaps Lukewarm, and definitely Liberal!

    And destined for Eternal Hell.
    “BEGONE FROM ME YE CURSED, INTO EVERLASTING FIRE! JOIN THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS!”
    — Jack Chick Great White Throne scene

  131. Nick–you nailed it! There is only The Church, which all believers are members of without any local body or state or national or international group having control over them.

    I once sat through a very tortured SBC sermon where the preacher tried to convince us that when the Bible said 3,000 were added to the church in one day, there had to be a vote. Was it en masse or for each individual was the issue for that preacher. But there had to be a vote!

  132. CMT,

    …and anyone else interested… Brad Jerzak is a very good source for help with “unwrathing God”. He’s written a few books, but there are also other things of his out there on the Internet.

    This topic especially is all about how we interpret Scripture. And much of the Evangelical way of interpreting Scripture is not the way of the ancient Church, As N.T. Wright has said, Paul’s questions were not the same questions as those of the Reformation. Wright and Jerzak are good helps – and go back before the Reformation and back before the Great Schism, and read Christian writers (especially those in Greek rather than Latin) from the first 6 centuries: Athanasius, Basil, Irenaeus, the Apostolic Fathers, Isaac of Nineveh (and, if you dare, Pseudo-Dionysios and Maximos the Confessor) for a much different picture. They were a lot closer in time to the Lord’s sojourn on earth, too.

    Dana

  133. linda: There is only The Church, which all believers are members of without any local body or state or national or international group having control over them.

    I once sat through a very tortured SBC sermon where the preacher tried to convince us that when the Bible said 3,000 were added to the church in one day, there had to be a vote.

    A great clarifying comment. I think the key word is “control.” Worship must remain voluntary.

    More generally, if we think institutions are the root of all evil… well, a lot of bad things happen outside of institutions too. In my area, a criminal acting completely alone has caused enormous suffering. The helpers include institutions, such as local and state police, the FBI, and victims’ services groups. There’s no perfect formula for protecting people. There’s just us.

  134. I have no problem with The Church forming groups to win the lost, serve people, do good, etc.

    I have grave problems with the idea if your name is not written down as a member of one of those groups you are not part of The Church.

  135. linda: But there had to be a vote!

    It seems like the bigger challenge would have been finding enough writing materials for all the required membership covenants and NDAs. Can’t have a church without those.

  136. Friend: There’s no perfect formula for protecting people. There’s just us.

    Amen.
    “To be is to be perceived, and so to know thyself is only possible through the eyes of the other. The nature of our immortal lives is in the consequences of our words and deeds, that go on and are pushing themselves throughout all time.

    – Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others, past and present, and by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future.”
    — From David Mitchell’s Cloud Atlas

  137. dainca,

    I’ve seen some of his writing actually. On Christianity without the Religion blog, I don’t know if he’s other places too.

    https://www.ptm.org/punisher-or-pushover-how-is-wrath-gods

    I found this compelling and thought-provoking. However, I was raised on “God’s ways are higher than our ways” and similar earnest assurances that there is actually no contradiction between “God is love” and the violent depictions of the Old Testament. So I feel a sense that what he’s saying might be too good to be true in some way. Definitely warrants further exploration.

  138. linda: I have grave problems with the idea if your name is not written down as a member of one of those groups you are not part of The Church.

    The organized church just can’t accept that the fastest growing group of God-fearing, Jesus-loving, Spirit-led Christians in America are the “Dones” … done with church, but not done with Jesus.

  139. Max: The organized church just can’t accept that the fastest growing group of God-fearing, Jesus-loving, Spirit-led Christians in America are the “Dones” … done with church, but not done with Jesus.

    I wish I shared your optimism. A lot of people associate the abuse with the Christian faith itself, and want nothing to do with any of it.

    Even here on TWW, churchgoers get subtly criticized sometimes, all within acceptable terms of discussion. I upset someone for saying that a denomination does more harm than good—although I did not call for that denomination to be shut down.

    People have lost faith in many institutions, not just religious ones, partly because the pandemic has exposed so many faults. I’ve found my peace with sitting at home almost two years… but what will be left of society if we abandon all our flawed groups?