It is Well With My Soul – Or is it? SGC’s Pastor’s Conference

“God may reveal Himself and give guidance to His servants any way He pleases. It is not for us to set limits on Him. But it remains a question as to whether or not we are entitled to expect ‘hotline’ disclosures on a regular basis. The correct answer is no. All the Biblical narratives of God’s direct communications with men are exceptional on their face, and the Biblical model of personal guidance is quite different.”
-J.I. Packer, Hot Tub Religion (Wheaton: Tyndale, 1987), 117


It’s time for another update on the denomination that changes names more frequently than a Subway Sandwich employee changes plastic gloves, or a Mobster in the Witness Protection Program changes addresses.

Yes, that’s right, the “family of churches” formerly known as “GOB – Gathering of Believers;” then “PDI – People of Destiny, International;” then “SGM – Sovereign Grace Ministries;” and currently named “SGC – Sovereign Grace Churches.”

I humbly served about five years in the “humble” denomination, led by “humble” leaders, the most “humble” of them being so “humble” that he wrote the book on Humility. Although I would be hesitant to say I was “well served” while there, I do see a possible purpose in my time spent “doing life together” in the “family of churches.” After all, God works in mysterious ways! To be honest, I wouldn’t have taken up blogging back in 2013 had I not attended Center Church, formerly known as Sovereign Grace Church of Gilbert.

(Seriously, what’s up with all these name changes? Are they running from something?)

Sovereign Grace Churches recently held their yearly (with the exception of last year) 3-day Pastor’s Conference (not to be confused with their 10-month Pastor’s “College”) November 9-11 in Orlando, FL.

In years gone by, Sovereign Grace Churches has always brought in a Celebrity speaker to headline the event. In 2019 I believe it was H.B. Charles. This year they apparently were unable to attract anyone from outside the denomination, but not to worry, they have an overabundance of home grown talent to fill out the speaker roster.  The talented line-up included Jeff Purswell, CJ Mahaney, Jon Payne, and Jered Mellinger, as well as Matt Turner, a relatively unknown upstart who pastors a church somewhere in the middle of Alabama.

Knowing that during this holiday season our audience’s time is at a premium, I have saved you the task of listening to every esteemed speaker’s hour-long speech at the conference, choosing to cherry-pick a few of the more outrageous clips. My apologies to those who failed to make my cut. My only advice is to try harder next year.

I begin with a clip from Matt Turner. My guess is that the SGC brain-trust wanted to get Matt on the speakers list because his story may help encourage some of the old-timers that are losing hope that their toxic little family will survive. Matt is new blood!

Matt is probably a real nice guy, but I have to say that I am highly skeptical that the still, small voice Matt heard say “Sovereign Grace” in his ear was the Lord’s, unless the Lord was attempting to tell Matt a denomination to avoid! Nevertheless, I have no doubt that Matt will fit right into the “Sovereign Grace family”. Anyone who gushes over the SGC BCO (Book of Church Order) as Matt does has a bright future in the “family.”

Next let’s turn our attention to Jon Payne. Jon is a luminary in the SGC family of churches. He has the two unwritten, though well-known items that it takes to quickly climb the SGC ladder. The first is nepotism. Jon’s father is a long-time friend of CJ. The second is a mastery of flattery. Nobody, with the possible exception of Rick Gamache, kisses Mahaney’ derriere better than Jon Payne. Payne has a tight grip on the top spot now because Gamache, in spite of naming his youngest son after C.J., has fallen out of favor for some undisclosed sin that came to a head at the end of 2020. Gamache took a ten week “sabbatical” and was removed from his position of Regional Leader, but came back to the pulpit on January 10, 2021. More on that in another post.

So put on your hip-waders and listen to one minute of Payne in his prime. SGC members may want to have a box of tissues close at hand!

Next we have Mr. Humility himself, CJ Mahaney. What Mahaney says in the clip below is simply outrageous. Barring a Damascus Road encounter I see no possibility for Mahaney ever admitting he has had any role in the cover-up of sexual abuse in the denomination he once led. Instead, his version of history is that he endured “slander-storms” (an obvious reference to Brent Detwiler who has publicly and thoroughly documented case after case of abuse, lies, and coverup in the SGC denomination) and attacks from Satan!

The evidence is overwhelming against Mahaney and SGC, whether it be Detwiler’s blog, Rachael Denhollander’s masterly documented case on Facebook, the Washingtonian article, Albert Mohler’s severing of all ties with SGC and CJ Mahaney, or many other documents. CJ Mahaney, your wounds are self-inflicted. Your circle of friends is rightly shrinking to the point of being nearly non-existent and your denomination is viewed as toxic.

Next is another Mahaney clip in which he attempts to perhaps lighten the mood by inserting some self-effacing humor. I don’t find it funny, just sad.  And CJ, the evangelical world is still waiting for you to “turn again.”

Mahaney makes the statement in the next clip that if Satan can prevail against a pastor, many others will be adversely affected. I believe the irony of this statement is lost on him.

Finally, here is another clip from Mahaney. I can’t believe Mahaney was brazen enough to publicly state that he and John Loftness often had late night phone conversations during some trying times. My speculation is they were both worried at that time that they may be arrested. In my opinion, John Loftness sexually abused at least one grade-school girl while he was the Principal of the private school. Examine  The Second Amended Complaint, paragraphs 87-93 if you would like to read the graphic details.

Nero fiddled why Rome burned. Mahaney and his pals flap their gums while the SGC ship is taking on water and listing heavily to port.

Comments

It is Well With My Soul – Or is it? SGC’s Pastor’s Conference — 122 Comments

  1. Without diving into the substance and details yet here, could we say that some of these pulpit dwellers don’t appear to age well … despite all of their $upport, grand lifestyles, and mutually backslapping fawns?

    Could it be possible that the utter darkness of a leadership life of cover-ups does not, in the long run, abide well for body, mind, and soul?

  2. Ava Aaronson: Could it be possible that the utter darkness of a leadership life of cover-ups does not, in the long run, abide well for body, mind, and soul?

    It would seem so.

    It appears CJ is hunched over his notes much more than he used to be. He utilizes a bunch of lengthy quotes and appeared tired and ill prepared for the speech he gave at the Pastor’s Conference.

  3. First thought:
    “What’s with Captain Picard’s Evil Twin up top?”

    I humbly served about five years in the “humble” denomination, led by “humble” leaders, the most “humble” of them being so “humble” that he wrote the book on Humility.

    With liveried flunkies blowing long trumpets before him to announce how HUMBLE he is.

    Mahaney and his pals flap their gums while the SGC ship is taking on water and listing heavily to port.

    Nothing to do but put a couple Long Lances into it, like Makigumo did to Hiryu after Midway.

  4. I know another word that describes this a lot better than “humility.” It also starts with “h” but it ends with “ubris”.

    Mahaney, that “scandal storm” you’re calling a satanic attack? Did it ever occur to you that maybe that was Somebody else trying to get your attention?

    Maybe this would have been a more appropriate text for your consideration:

    Is 5:20 “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”

    God preserve us from such “saints.”

  5. When one reflects on all the stories of the “bad actors” that are reported on, here at TWW, there does seem to be allot of examples of the “bad actors” reflecting on “how hard they have it”, or now, on CJ case, how Stan is going after him…. I.e. it always seems to be always about “them”…and NOT that are consequences for THEIR actions…..
    I am sure either each of us personally, or we know of cases personally, on how “hard” it is/was for pew peons…. These clowns really like to focus on themselves, which, in reality, is just about the opposite of what Christ commands…. I.e. love your neighbor as yourself, and no greater love….

    I like Max’s suggestion that there are plenty of “servants” that are quietly working away that we never hear about…. We need to also dwell on this from time to time…

  6. Todd Wilhelm: It appears CJ is hunched over his notes much more than he used to be. He utilizes a bunch of lengthy quotes and appeared tired and ill prepared for the speech he gave at the Pastor’s Conference.

    Snap. We have the same observation.

    When the wheels in Ezekiel left the Temple, there was nothing left but an empty room, a shell, a hull.

    In contrast, “And so, dear brothers and sisters, I plead with you to give your bodies to God because of all he has done for you. Be a living and holy sacrifice—the kind he will find acceptable. This is truly the way to worship him.” Romans 12.1.

  7. “… I do see a possible purpose in my time spent “doing life together” in the “family of churches” …” (Todd Wilhelm)

    God will take you through a valley where darkness lives so that you can see it up close and personal, to experience it for a season, to see it for what it is. The journey is intended to equip you to help others learn to avoid that road … you can’t help someone out if you are still in.

    GOB, PDI, SGM, SGC have been dark valleys for lots of folks. The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived. If you are currently under SGC’s spell, listen carefully to Todd – he has escaped the fowler’s snare – he is here to inform and warn you.

  8. Todd

    Just to be clear in Mahaney’s talks he didn’t show any sign of admitting that what happened to him was at least partially his responsibility?

    I have no doubt he didn’t but am just confirming.

  9. Ava Aaronson: Could it be possible that the utter darkness of a leadership life of cover-ups does not, in the long run, abide well for body, mind, and soul?

    As Ravi Zacharias said “Sin will take you farther than you want to go, keep you longer than you want to stay, and cost you more than you want to pay.” He ought to know, he lived it.

  10. CMT: Mahaney, that “scandal storm” you’re calling a satanic attack? Did it ever occur to you that maybe that was Somebody else trying to get your attention?

    It’s PROOF of The Humble One’s Godliness and Righteousness:
    “All who live GODLY in Christ Jesus Shall Suffer PERSECUTION…”
    “Blessed are Ye Who Are PERSECUTED for RIGHTEOUSNESS’ Sake…”

    Oh, anyone remember Bob Larson humblebragging that he was So Godly a Spriitiual Warrior SATAN Had Personally Singled Him Out for Demonic-Attack PERSECUTION?

  11. Jeffrey Chalmers: a lot of examples of the “bad actors” reflecting on “how hard they have it”, or now, on CJ case, how Stan is going after him…. I.e. it always seems to be always about “them”…and NOT that are consequences for THEIR actions…..

    When it’s about them, it’s not about God. These bad-boys have no option – if they are to stay on top – but to deny wrongdoing and play the sympathy card. There are enough pewsitter suckers to fall for it and keep them on stage. Folks like CJ do not “produce fruit in keeping with repentance” (Matthew 3:8) because they are unrepentant.

  12. Max: As Ravi Zacharias said “Sin will take you farther than you want to go, keep you longer than you want to stay, and cost you more than you want to pay.”He ought to know, he lived it.

    I remember the movie Excalibur, when first Uther than Arthur Pendragon browbeat Merlin into using his most powerful magic, the Charm of Making.

    Merlin (who is a creature of magic) keeps trying to dissuade them, but they end up prevailing with the demand “DO IT, MERLIN! WHATEVER THE COST!

    And then Merlin breaks down and casts the Charm.
    And then Uther and Arthur get their desire fulfilled – and find out “what the cost” really is as the payment comes due, unfolding from what they did.

    When Magick is Afoot, one thing you NEVER say is “Whatever the Cost”.

  13. Jeffrey Chalmers: there are plenty of “servants” that are quietly working away that we never hear about…. We need to also dwell on this from time to time…

    The Church of the Living God seldom has a big stage, no icons to worship, no applause of men. But, Jesus stands on the edge of Heaven to cheer it on … you can hear Him in the pulpit, see Him at work in the pew, observe His love in the community. May you find such place in your area.

  14. Max,

    That piece was really interesting to me. The writer seemed quite astute at identifying the toxic dynamics within SGC, but some of the things he said about survivors raised, not red flags but maybe yellow ones for me.

    For example: he’s spot on condemning the practice of nitpicking how a message is delivered rather than engaging the actual problem. Yet he conveyed disapproval about “how we got here”-ie SGC’s abysmal handling of sexual abuse becoming a public scandal. Yet he’s vague about what exactly he thinks should have been done differently. It makes me wonder if he thinks survivors of clergy sex abuse are supposed to be “Matt eighteening” their abusers.

    Another point: He emphasizes the hurt survivors feel. He then spends a fair amount of time stressing that survivors may sin as a response to being abused. Yet he never specifies what he means by that, which leads me to question whether he knows the difference between a trauma response and someone being deliberately vengeful. Or, you know, someone manifesting righteous anger against horrendous wickedness.

    I’ve never heard anything else by this guy so I don’t know, maybe he does address those things elsewhere. And I think he is on track overall. I just get the sense that he might not have as clear an understanding of abuse and trauma dynamics as he does of the inner workings of spiritual authoritarianism.

  15. CMT,

    Oops for some reason I thought Max’s comment was talking about that piece that was linked somewhere in the middle of this article. That was a long train of thought to be based on a brain fart but I’ve been known to do that… I blame ADD haha

  16. Steve240: Just to be clear in Mahaney’s talks he didn’t show any sign of admitting that what happened to him was at least partially his responsibility?

    You are correct. Not a sign. Zip, zero, nada.

  17. Headless Unicorn Guy: It’s PROOF of The Humble One’s Godliness and Righteousness:

    Exactly. They like this one too:
    “ Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me”

    They tend to overlook that one little word – falsely.

    Jesus had another pithy saying that might be a more appropriate proof text for this sort of thing:

    “It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.”

  18. Jeffrey Chalmers: That is disgusting….

    It’s amazing how long the New Calvinists and the gospelly coalition endorsed him. They only dropped him when they had to, and it was done silently.

  19. dee: I would say that his emphasis on the word “slander” says it all.

    Perhaps one can be encouraged that he finds it important to continue to attempt to rebut the charges. It’s not a case of teflon suit repelling all the dirt that one has waded through.

    For some, their sins precede them to the place of judgment; for others, they follow.

  20. Ken F (aka Tweed): the gospelly coalition endorsed him.

    A random thought stimulated by ‘gospelly’:

    The famous Pauline charge to the Philippian presbyters was to “have the mind of Christ”:

    (Phil 2, RSV)

    “5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant,[a] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. ”

    Of course, it continues that after his suffering, Jesus was highly exalted and given, by the Father, the title “Lord”.

    —-

    The thought occurs that the theology of pastoral supremacy that animates the thinking of these people essentially places the pastor in a position of functional equality with Christ — as ‘lord’ over the congregation. They are to Christ as Christ is to the Father.

    These pastors seem to consider equality with Christ a thing to be grasped, and they seem to grasp it, rather than humbling themselves and embracing suffering for the sake of their flocks.

    We need a new term for this thinking.

    I propose ‘the Graspel’

    ‘The Graspel Coalition’

    ‘Together for the Graspel’

    etc.

    I think it works.

  21. Samuel Conner: I think it works.

    Good thoughts (well, as good as possible considering the topic). I also think “coalition” should be changed to something like coagulation, clot, or clique to better capture the environment.

  22. Ken F (aka Tweed): It’s amazing how long the New Calvinists and the gospelly coalition endorsed him. They only dropped him when they had to, and it was done silently.

    When a New Calvinist potato becomes too hot to handle, the dudebros drop them (Driscoll, MacDonald, Mahaney, Tullian, etc. etc., the list is getting longer). When a NeoCal darling’s liabilities exceed their assets, they become “CJ who?”

  23. Todd

    Thanks for clarifying that Mahaney only talked about attacks from Satan and “slander” vs. Mahaney accepting any responsibility for what happened to him.

    That really doesn’t surprise me. I remember Carolyn Mahaney (CJ’s wife) in early 2015 posting on her “Girl Talk” blog where she moaned about all that had happened to them. Carolyn showed no clue that most (if not all) of what had happened to them was the result of C.J. Mahaney’s sin and hypocrisy. Carolyn played the victim.

    I found the links since I sent them to one pastor:

    http://www.girltalkhome.com/ blog/qa-how-do-i-handle-the- pain-of-broken-relationships/

    http://www.girltalkhome.com/ blog/what-do-we-do-when- former-friends-do-what-they- do/

    http://www.girltalkhome.com/ blog/a-few-more-thoughts-on- forgiveness/

    IMO is that even if at some point in time Mahaney and remaining SGC Leadership were to realize that what has happened is a consequence of their sin and hypocrisy it would be quite hard admitting that you were deceived for this long. Thus, they have dug themselves a hole that would take a lot of humility and reproach to dig themselves out of to admit that SG was wrong.

    With Mahaney and other top Sovereign Grace Leaders I guess all those churches that chose to leave the “family of churches” including their former flagship church (Covenant Life Church) were wrong and just being deceived by Satan. I imagine Mahaney thinks the same of top leaders outside of Sovereign Grace that have chosen to sever ties with Mahaney.

    My guess is Mahaney will go to his grave thinking he did no wrong. Mahaney will then have to give an account to God.

  24. Max: When a New Calvinist potato becomes too hot to handle, the dudebros drop them (Driscoll, MacDonald, Mahaney, Tullian, etc. etc., the list is getting longer). When a NeoCal darling’s liabilities exceed their assets, they become “CJ who?”

    True It has nothing to do with wanting to be “biblical” or wanting to not have “sin in the camp.”

  25. Samuel Conner: These pastors seem to consider equality with Christ a thing to be grasped, and they seem to grasp it, rather than humbling themselves and embracing suffering for the sake of their flocks.
    We need a new term for this thinking.
    I propose ‘the Graspel’

    Brilliant, Samuel! I love it.

    I appreciate your comments.

  26. Headless Unicorn Guy: Nothing to do but put a couple Long Lances into it, like Makigumo did to Hiryu after Midway.

    This reminds me of how Anno Hideaki named his characters in Neon Genesis Evangelion after various ships–if you read about the Makigumo, you see she was a version of the Sōryū and another ship, Akagi, is mentioned. Both were prominent characters in the initial iteration (TV) of NGE.

    I listened to all the clips and to be be perfectly honest, I don’t know that I could sit for an hour under such preaching. It gets on my nerves. Am I weird?

  27. Steve240: It has nothing to do with wanting to be “biblical” or wanting to not have “sin in the camp.”

    The New Calvinist movement is more concerned about preserving the camp, rather than sin in the camp. The NeoCal elite will not expose their bad-boys, but will distance themselves from them when others do.

  28. You’ve missed some key issues here. If you’ve watch the trajectory of Mark Prater’s blog posts over the last couple years (especially in light of the churches that left), Prater continually goes out of his way to emphasize that SGC is a global family of churches and the priority of the BCO. Mark shoehorns this into virtually every “post”. This is for two reasons: 1) SGC is shrinking in the US, and they’ve always had global partners they are working to “formalize” into membership; 2) SGC’s BCO is the scaffolding that’s been redesigned by Jared Mellinger (you misspelled his name), et al, to conform to their Apostolic ministry model.

    These two maneuvers is how SGC is rebranding. A few years ago SGC’s “Mission” fund emphasized how many “SGC missionaries” were globally engaged. Like all things, this was SGC’s spin on the reality of things. Most of these people were folks who’d been members of SGC churches and on their own initiative gone into global mission works. Because those folks had been connected at one point with an SGC church and were members in good standing, they’d counted them as “SGC missionaries”. Those who weren’t members in good standing… well, has anybody heard from the SGC mission work in Croatia in a while? This all emphasizes how SGC is looking to rebrand. Notice their Council of Elders centered on global partnerships. SGC must rebrand – if they’re listening to Eric Turbedsky, they will. But they’ll do it around their particular brand of “leadership’s” global partnership progress. They are shrinking in the US, but “expanding” globally, and their rebranding will be shaped around this movement.

  29. Steve240: My guess is Mahaney will go to his grave thinking he did no wrong.

    Accountability in every organization floats up. You didn’t get any more “up” than Mahaney in SGM.

  30. Post Shepherding Movement,

    Excellent comment, and I agree with you. Prater and company are attempting to expand globally for the reasons you stated. Any newbie in the USA who wanders into a SGC church for the first time and thinks it looks like a place they may want to regularly attend will likely next go to the internet and search for additional information. Of course when they do this they will be appalled at what they find. This is one reason many of their churches have changed their names and usually minimize their affiliation with SGC on their website.

    The practical problem of establishing churches globally, particularly in most of the countries they are attempting to do so, is these churches are in poor countries and will add very little to SGC’s bottom line.

    Also, did you see any shots of the audience at the recent Pastor’s Conference? I didn’t. Judging from the clapping and laughing, and admittedly this is tough to accurately do, it sounds like a fairly small audience.

    Speculation here, but I would think SGC is struggling financially and probably have the PPP loans from 2020 and 2021 to thank for still surviving.

  31. Todd Wilhelm,

    There’s a number of reasons for this. One aspect of SGC’s “global” partnerships is that it’s always been somewhat of a facade. It was during the 2012 crisis that it was discovered that multiple SGC leadership members who were “global” had never signed any partnership agreement, or agreed to any binding relationship at all.

    Additionally, SGC’s current leadership has long been convinced that they can only build international partnerships around their apostolic convictions and roots. This was said multiple times by Dave Taylor over the years during SGC’s debates about their Book of Church Order – in effect, no other polity would work in building international expansion of SGC. The point being: From SGC Leadership Team’s perspective, SGC could only grow globally by emphasizing a strong, central leadership model – aka, Apostolic ministry.

    If one looks at where SGC is growing globally, along with who they are partnering with, they will find that they tend to be cultures where a strong senior leadership model is acceptable and welcomed. SGC’s global expansion is primarily in locations where the myth of the “strong gifted leader” thrive in religious contexts, much like they have in suburban America where CJ rose to fame. It’s thus no surprise that they’re growing in those locations given how strongly SGC has veered back to their roots.

    Additionally, you won’t see CJ in the front seat on this. He’s been behind the scenes with all of these maneuvers since he “reconciled” with Prater in 2015. CJ is more of a collector of powerful friends than he is one to continually seek center stage. He certainly will take it when it’s given to him, but he prefers to grift off the notoriety and status of those around him. Thus, as more global partnerships are solidified, CJ will be seen around these guys and his “legacy” of “leadership” will benefit from their presence, but CJ won’t be pushing to take over Prater’s role. CJ has worked with his Young Leaders cohort in SGC (overseen by Mickey Connolly) to recast the BCO and the Leadership Team in his image, and he’s probably quiet pleased with how things are running now in SGC.

  32. “I humbly humble myself and ask you to humbly be humble. So humble that the most humblest of them all (me) has to humble even harder because we humbly know that humble little me IS and will always be humbly the humblest of them all. Humbly speaking, I will out humble all of you, so you can humbly suck it!”

    Did anyone else hear this in the subtext?

  33. “… Matt Turner. My guess is that the SGC brain-trust wanted to get Matt on the speakers list because his story may help encourage some of the old-timers that are losing hope that their toxic little family will survive. Matt is new blood!” (Todd Wilhelm)

    Poor guy. I hope he is able to escape the fowler’s snare. The last young blood that SGM promoted to stardom (Joshua Harris) got so messed up in the toxic brew there that he recanted Christianity.

  34. Ken F (aka Tweed): something like this one

    There are several renditions on youtube, which means this anthem made the rounds at a number of venues over time.

    Cult. Of. Personality.

    Not only should a Jesus follower discourage this type of fawning and flattery, he/she should shut it down. Didn’t happen.

  35. Steve240: her “Girl Talk” blog where she moaned about all that had happened to them.

    Nina Burleigh saw a certain statesman always surrounded by his fawning cloned-girl-ladies. Tall, blond, younger than his daughter but looked like his daughter, etc. Burleigh researched what this was all about: “The [insert name] Women: Part of the Deal.”

    Yes, women play their part in the “strongmen” sagas. Ruth Ben-Ghiat’s research in “Strongmen” also exposes the women, the legitimizers, the camouflage, all part of the con.

    It seems that all the con men or fakes (like Epstein), have their enablers or helpers or complicit women (like Ghislaine). Sycophants and silk.

  36. Haven’t been to the Wartburg Watch in a while. This article came up on my Facebook feed. The word that first came to mind after watching the clips of CJ Mahaney was *cringeworthy*. The theatrics just drip off of him.

  37. Headless Unicorn Guy:

    “Oh, anyone remember Bob Larson humblebragging that he was So Godly a Spriitiual Warrior SATAN Had Personally Singled Him Out for Demonic-Attack PERSECUTION?”

    Bob Larson? I haven’t heard that name in ages! I listened to his show regularly for a couple of years. He constantly harped on about satanic warfare. If I listened to his show today I’d call it call it religious parody.

  38. Darlene: The theatrics just drip off of him.

    CJ, the actor, would have no stage if it weren’t for an audience willing to buy tickets to the show. A pulpit like this is supported by a pew which doesn’t have a clue.

  39. Darlene: Haven’t been to the Wartburg Watch in a while.

    Welcome back, Darlene! The Wartburgers have been chasing all sorts of bad-boy-pastors in your absence.

  40. Darlene: religious parody.

    Theatrics, as you note above.

    Could be funny but it’s no joke.

    At some point church pivoted to performance, a stage with the required stage presence, entertainment, showmanship with showboaters, and as Max observes: tricks, gimmicks & gifted gabsters.

    By this, Jesus said, His followers are known, that we LOVE one another.

    Nothing about being a groupie of a cult of personality.

    However, whatever we do to the least of these … the needy orphan, the needy widow, the needy displaced, the undeservedly disenfranchised … we do unto Jesus, to God Himself.

    Going about our Heavenly Father’s business, as illustrated by Jesus, and as lived by His NT disciples, does not seem to have a lot in common with most “church” today. Including Evangelicalism and its name brand leaders & networks.

    Followers, let us beware and be aware, of whom we follow.

  41. Ava Aaronson: At some point church pivoted to performance, a stage with the required stage presence, entertainment, showmanship with showboaters …

    … where the Great God Entertainment sits on his throne.

    “Today we have the astonishing spectacle of millions of dollars being poured into the unholy job of providing earthly entertainment for the so-called sons of heaven. Religious entertainment is in many places rapidly crowding out the serious things of God. Many churches these days have become little more than poor theatres where fifth-rate producers peddle their shoddy wares with the full approval of evangelical leaders who can even quote a holy text in defense of their delinquency. And hardly a man dares raise his voice against it.” (A.W. Tozer, “The Root of the Righteous”)

  42. Max: Welcome back, Darlene!The Wartburgers have been chasing all sorts of bad-boy-pastors in your absence.

    Thanks for the hearty welcome!

  43. Max: A pulpit like this is supported by a pew which doesn’t have a clue.

    Nor do they want a clue.
    They like it just the way it is.

  44. Ugh! After leaving CLC so many years ago, it was painful to watch those clips of CJ. He has truly never had humility, self-awareness, or any kind of love for the people in his church. I can’t believe I stayed in that church so long! It’s truly not my brand of Christianity.

  45. Former CLC’er:
    Ugh!After leaving CLC so many years ago, it was painful to watch those clips of CJ.He has truly never had humility, self-awareness, or any kind of love for the people in his church.I can’t believe I stayed in that church so long!It’s truly not my brand of Christianity.

    It can be hard to see how hypocritical someone like CJ Mahaney is when you are in a group that use to almost worship him. Also, with that group’s definition of what gossip is, people are reluctant to share with others their questions including about Mahaney.

    What is real shocking is hearing Mahaney teach on say Philipians 2 and seem to really understand what it says while still never apparently practicing it:

    https://sgmanalysis.wordpress.com/2013/04/15/c-j-mahaney-teaches-on-the-priority-of-gospel-unity-a-priority-for-only-for-others-but-not-c-j-mahaney/amp/

    The above is my blog post.

  46. Muff Potter: They like it just the way it is.

    “The prophets prophesy falsely,
    And the priests rule on their own authority;
    And My people love to have it so!
    But what will you do when the end comes?” (Jeremiah 5:31)

  47. Todd Wilhelm: Max,

    Love the Tozer quote!

    And to think he wrote that in 1955! The American church has been in a theatrical mess for decades! What would Tozer say now about our Sunday morning worship with big screens, fog machines and skinny jeans?!! About Christian celebrities and cults of personality? About the Christian Industrial Complex money machine? Yep, American pulpits and pews have a lot to repent of if they ever get around to it. In the meantime, the beat goes on across the land to invite the Great God Entertainment into the house.

  48. Steve240: It can be hard to see how hypocritical someone like CJ Mahaney is when you are in

    When you are “in”, you can’t see clearly. It’s only when you are “out” that you can discern it for what it is. Such is the spell of Christian celebrities and cults of personality.

  49. I can’t watch these men any more. They give me the creeps. They make me ill. I have a better walk with God staying away from the idiocy that I was part of for too long.

  50. In some ways Mahaney might be correct that what he is experiencing is an attack by Satan. Let me explain.

    If you read the passages 1 Peter 5:1-8 before vs 9 youwill see it Is talking about humility and God being opposed to the proud. It could be argued that the trap of Satan Peter was referencing to was pride and arrogance, which Mahaney seems to be showing by not seeing his own actions being the major cause of what has happened to him.

    Satan tempted Mahaney with pride and arrogance and rather resist that temptation, Mahaney succumbed to it.

    The documents certainly showed Mahaney failed in vs. 3 of that same chapter. Mahaney then when exposed failed to humble himself.

  51. Bridget: I can’t watch these men any more. They give me the creeps. They make me ill. I have a better walk with God staying away from the idiocy that I was part of for too long.

    You are not alone.

  52. Just some fresh air ? Something beautiful to read and ponder ? Here what I found this week, worth sharing
    http://www.synaxis.info/psalter/5_english/c_psalms/CoverdalePsalms.pdf
    Yes the Psalms in modern English by Coverdale.
    “The gifts that he brought to the task were considerable: a superb ear, an extraordinary sense of English prose rhythms, and a fluency which skillfully blended disparate elements.”

    How was he described by others ?: There is abundant testimony by contemporaries of Coverdale’s unassuming nature (John Bale, for example, described him as a “very gentle spirit”).
    Qualifications so much needed theses days

  53. Max: When you are “in”, you can’t see clearly.It’s only when you are “out” that you can discern it for what it is.Such is the spell of Christian celebrities and cults of personality.

    I imagine this partially explains why the leaders around Mahaney are not telling him that it was mostly Mahaney’s own actions that has caused this. I am sure with these other leaders that it is also fear of man with the power in the group Mahaney still has.

  54. Steve240: leaders around Mahaney … fear of man with the power in the group Mahaney still has

    Which would confirm that Mahaney’s authority is not “of God.”

    “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind” (2 Timothy 1:7)

  55. Post Shepherding Movement: Like all things, this was SGC’s spin on the reality of things.

    IOW, deception, con, marketing, and “sales”, as if the Good News can be bought and sold.

    Whenever there’s money involved with the Gospel, it’s a scam.

    Jesus and his disciples were not collectors of money. Jesus told his disciples that he would make them fishers of men, not collectors of money.

    All money collection in churches today should be questioned.

    When Jesus said that he was going about his Father’s business, I doubt Jesus was referring to this type of enterprise: church as a business with local fellowships as franchises of the Mothership, the org, the corporation.

    In Acts, Jesus’ followers were directed to wait until the Holy Spirit came upon them. They were never told to collect money to build an enterprise.

    The early church was built on the presence of the Holy Spirit, not on money collections, branding, marketing, and business plans.

  56. Steve240,

    When you think you are an “Apostle”, that means, in “your own mind”, that you have special, Divine Authority, which is above “pew peon man”, including police. So, if you think you can “handle” a sexual abuse, or other abuse case, why take it to the “authorities” when “your authority” is superior??
    While what I said might seem exaggerated, I remember of fundamentalist Baptist leaders teaching that they definitely had “superior spiritual authority”…. Not much of a stretch toe extent to sexual, and other abuse..

  57. Jeffrey Chalmers: When you think you are an “Apostle”, that means, in “your own mind”, that you have special, Divine Authority, which is above “pew peon man”,

    Apostle is one of eighteen gifts given to the church by the Holy Spirit.

    All 18 stand on level, equal power ground, under the singular authority of Jesus our Lord. All eighteen gifts are empowered by the Holy Spirit and endowed at least one apiece to individuals living faithfully indwelt by this same Spirit. (Lists: Romans 12, 1 Cor. 12, Eph. 4)

    God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit rule.

    Administration is a gift to administrate, but not rule.

    A teacher teaches, but does not rule.

    An apostle is literally an emissary, sent out with the message of Good News, but does not rule.

    A pastor shepherds but does not rule. If a pastor does not acknowledge the Holy Spirit gifts in others, then he/she is derelict.

    We had a pastor that taught a class on the 18 gifts and the #1 gift he acknowledged was the gift of $$$ – giving money. Those were the people on his boards. This enabled the pastor to run his church like a business. Discernment? Never acknowledged in his church. So crazy stuff went on beneath the polished image.

    These little rulers claiming to rule for Christ in the kingdom… according to Jesus’ own words, they are not of God’s Kingdom. They’re doing their own thing.

    The Holy Spirit gift of discernment is present in the church. A so-called leader who does not acknowledge this gift from God to the church is missing the boat.

  58. Ava Aaronson: Apostle

    Beware of anyone who self-proclaims himself as an “Apostle”! That should have been an early clue that C.J. was desperately off-track.

  59. Jeffrey Chalmers: When you think you are an “Apostle”, that means, in “your own mind”, that you have special, Divine Authority, which is above “pew peon man”, including police. So, if you think you can “handle” a sexual abuse, or other abuse case, why take it to the “authorities” when “your authority” is superior??
    While what I said might seem exaggerated, I remember of fundamentalist Baptist leaders teaching that they definitely had “superior spiritual authority”…. Not much of a stretch toe extent to sexual, and other abuse..

    In psychological terms IMO Mahaney is quite high on the narcissistic scale if not a full narcissist. I know only certain medical people can make that diagnosis.

    IMO, Mahaney also may sociopathic as described in Mary Stout’s “The Sociopath Next Door book.” I don’t use the term “sociopath” lightly but his appearing to have no conscience for all he has done I believe meets the criteria of someone who is a sociopath. Again, only certain medical people can make that actual diagnosis.

    https://www.amazon.com/Sociopath-Next-Door-Martha-Stout/dp/076791581X/ref=asc_df_076791581X?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80814156549549&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584413736026499&psc=1

  60. Max,

    Declaring themselves as apostles, if they:

    1. …are actual emissaries of the Good News, it makes sense. Missionaries, IOW, in our time. Going to foreign lands, to the ends of the Earth to share the Gospel.

    2. … acknowledge the other seventeen gifts, equal in value, and in lateral standing under the authority of God, empowered by God’s Holy Spirit. (Romans 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4). This, too, is essential.

    But apostle as some ruler authority in church? Ringleader? Never. Big red flag that this person is NOT of God’s Kingdom. They are looking for sycophants to set up their dynasty, do their own thing, and run their own little kingdom of/in this world.

  61. Max: Beware of anyone who self-proclaims himself as an “Apostle”!That should have been an early clue that C.J. was desperately off-track.

    Not just “Apostle” but “HEAD Apostle” of “The People of Destiny”.
    Ego Much?

    “If you encounter a preacher who has titled himself “Apostle” or “Prophet”, RUN!”
    — my writing partner (the burned-out preacher)

  62. Steve240: I imagine this partially explains why the leaders around Mahaney are not telling him that it was mostly Mahaney’s own actions that has caused this.

    Nobody tells The CELEBRITY anything other than what The CELEBRITY wants to hear.
    Especially when The CEELBRITY has power over those who would tell him anything.
    Result? North Korea levels of Praise, Adoration, and Flattery.

    Tell me again about God’s Ways NOT being like The World’s…

  63. Max: Ava Aaronson: At some point church pivoted to performance, a stage with the required stage presence, entertainment, showmanship with showboaters …

    … where the Great God Entertainment sits on his throne.

    “WELCOME BACK MY FRIENDS
    TO THE SHOW THAT NEVER ENDS!
    WE’RE SO GLAD YOU COLD ATTEND!
    COME INSIDE! COME INSIDE!”
    — Emerson, Lake, & Palrmer, “Karn Evil Nine: First Impression, Part 2”

    (Though Part 2 actually begins in the last few verses of Part 1):

    “ROLL UP! ROLL UP! ROLL UP!
    SEE THE SHOW!

    “NEXT UPON THE BILL
    IN OUR HOUSE OF VAUDEVILLE
    WE’VE A STRIPPER IN A TILL!
    WHAT A THRILL! WHAT A THRILL!

    “AND NOT CONTENT WITH THAT
    WITH OUR HANDS BEHIND OUR BACKS
    WE PULL JESUS FROM A HAT!
    LOOK AT THAT! LOOK AT THAT!

    “ROLL UP! ROLL UP! ROLL UP!
    SEE THE SHOW!!!”

  64. Darlene: Bob Larson? I haven’t heard that name in ages! I listened to his show regularly for a couple of years. He constantly harped on about satanic warfare

    I think Larson said that Satan wrote insulting messages to him with an invisible finger on his steam-fogged bathroom mirror. You know, just like that scene from the movie Ghost?

    And the Spiritual Warfare Story of The Pious Piper covered in this blog many years ago, AKA “She’s got a knife! But that’s OK, Piper has a COAT!”?

    I have had two or three probable paranormal encounters (i.e. “Weird S*it Experiences”) in my life. The first of these in 1980 fits the description of a for-real demonic encounter. LARSON AND THESE SPIRITUAL WARFARE TYPES DON’T KNOW WHAT THEY’RE TALKING ABOUT!

  65. Headless Unicorn Guy,
    Here’s my account, under separate cover.
    Think of it as collected Intel:

    MY FULLERTON FREAKOUT (long)

    This happened around 1980; I’d been out of college for two years and was living in Monrovia, working in North Hollywood, and driving 30 miles to Cal State Fullerton on Saturday nights for my regular FRP gaming all-nighters. (I think at the time it was mostly RuneQuest instead of D&D, maybe other Chaosium games with occasional “I’ll try anything once” of new releases by my regular GM Wayne.) Cal State Fullerton, third floor Langsdorf Hall, just off the elevators.

    (Cal State Fullerton had its own oral history of the weird; there had been a lone-gunman mass shooting in the Library some years previously, the open balconies on the front of the 8-story Humanities Building attracted suicide jumpers, there was a poltergeist story connected to a convenience store the other side of the 57 Freeway, and Wayne told me there was a leftover orange grove on-campus he avoided because it looked REAL spooky at night.)

    Usual bunch of gamers that night (fandoms such as this attract some really odd types); I remember sitting in the corridor with a few other gamers going on about something from a real character I’d known at Cal Poly. The game session must have ended early (i.e. around midnight) because a lot of us decamped to Wayne’s place (a student apartment complex just north of the campus) for an after-meeting “recreational thinking skull session”. Wayne would have been “holding court” in bare feet with a big mug of Dr Pepper (Mountain Dew didn’t become the drink of gamers until years later) and we would have been yakking about just any subject.

    THAT’s when things got Weird. At some point during the night I got the sensation that something was sizing me up. A “Behinder Effect” where I KNEW there was something watching me, but whichever way I turned it would always jump behind me so I could never see what it was. The feeling kept growing, until by the time we were at Wayne’s it was very intense.

    I don’t remember the details, but I DID get some sort of direction on it — a few degrees east of north. (Later I traced the direction on a map, and found a line in that direction would pass through Brea Canyon (reputation for anomalous car trouble), Cal Poly Pomona (where I went to school), and ending somewhere around Death Valley.)

    I remember making some sort of quick silent prayer (don’t remember exactly what), then It immediately hit me, from out of nowhere like flipping a light switch on. A sudden all-consuming wall of pee-your-pants FEAR. Utter TERROR. The only way to describe it is I got hit with a Fear Spell and fumbled my saving throw. And it just kept up at full intensity.

    I think Wayne and the others tried to talk me down from my obvious near-breakdown. I vaguely remember him saying “You don’t know half the Weird Sh*t that goes on around here,” but don’t remember if it was then or afterwards. Around 2-3 Ayem I managed to drive home, but I sure didn’t get any sleep that night.

    The next morning the Fear Spell had faded to where I could think in complete sentences again, and I got on the phone to two guys from the Cal Poly Gang: Jim (my old dorm roomie), and Bob (both Christian, both fannishly weird) and told them what had happened. They both came over that night and we had some sort of prayer meeting around my kitchen table. Don’t remember the details (never been much of a praying man, so I know they did most of the talking), but I DO remember a sensation like sitting above a floor heater with warm air billowing around me. Might have gone out for eats after we ended the session; not sure, but that would have been normal with these guys.

    A week or two later, I was back at Cal State for game night, keeping my eyes and ears open. From various sources over the next few weeks:

    * Larry (another gamer with a rep for being interested in paranormal things) was either in the hospital (with a sudden life-threatening staph infection) or had just been discharged (it responded to treatment — “next thing I know I’m in a quarantine ward with antibiotic IVs in each arm”).
    * This may have been when Wayne told me “You don’t know half the…” quote from above.
    * General talk (don’t remember the sources) how the Weirdness that had been going on had stopped abruptly that Sunday after my freakout (the day Jim & Bob had that little get-together around my kitchen table).
    * One of Wayne’s roomies (the non-stoner) much later related at some point that he’d had some weird experiences around that time. Once he claimed he woke up to find some sort of apparition dressed like a 17th Century Cavalier in his room who spoke to him; he thought this was most probably a waking dream. And once he said he saw Wayne in the living room looking at something on the ceiling like a spot of anomalous mist moving around; he was sure this wasn’t a dream.

    So that was it. Nothing like this happened before, nothing since, naturally no physical evidence (unless you want to link Larry’s hospitalization, and the only apparent link was the timing). No Pagan Temple Screamers, no Operaton Ice Castle, none of the usual Spiritual Warrior shticks. Just something that happened, got attacked, called in some Big Guns for a response, things shut down, nothing since.

    Some 15 years later in 1994 I adapted the experience into an FRP game scenario for TriTac’s Stalking the Night Fantastic (contemporary-supernatural milieu where the player-characters are “Government-Sanctioned Ghostbusters”). Never saw print because the scenario pack project fell through.

    And 40 years later two things that still struck me:
    * The immediate rabid ATTACK when I did that prayer in Wayne’s living room that night. Instantaneous fangs-out response from Whatever It Was. And that it only was able to mess with my head and emotions, nothing physical. Suggestion (and Emotional Trigger) instead of Fireball.
    * And if Whatever It Was had stayed cool and not reacted in sudden blind rage, it could have continued on; I would have just been a little creeped out by the Behinder Effect, but not enough to do anything like I did.
    * All I can confirm about Whatever It Was was that It was non-physical, apparently telepathic, and HOSTILE, losing it completely when it heard my silent prayer.

  66. Headless Unicorn Guy: North Korea levels of Praise, Adoration, and Flattery.

    Was just listening to a computer geek from the Czech Republic share how they were freed from a despot dynasty where the norm had been silencing discourse, cover-ups, and elimination of voice for the ordinary dues-paying worker-bee folks, etc.

    What’s the difference between a despot dynasty and a strongman guru leader nda covenant church?

    Church is voluntary.

    There’s a myth somewhere that having a despot dynasty creates a better society. I, for one, am not such a believer.

  67. Steve240: It can be hard to see how hypocritical someone like CJ Mahaney is when you are in a group that use to almost worship him.Also, with that group’s definition of what gossip is, people are reluctant to share with others their questions including about Mahaney.

    I actually realized that CJ had major unresolved issues and that people worshiped him when I was in CLC. I even mentioned that to a couple who led one of my care groups! Amazing that I didn’t get kicked out of the church! I just didn’t realize how bad CJ’s issues were.

  68. Former CLC’er: I even mentioned that to a couple who led one of my care groups!

    In New Calvinist ranks, “Care Groups”, “Life Groups”, and other such weekly home meetings of members are often ways for church elders to keep an eye out for potential dissenters via group leaders who report back to them. Such faithful leaders are considered good elder candidates to eventually serve as yes-men to the pastor. These meetings typically have little to do with spiritual “care” or “life” … but avenues to monitor members for disciplinary actions if necessary, under the guise of fellowship and Bible study.

  69. Max,

    How authoritarian rule works in a communist party rule country… hierarchy of cadres right down to the local level. What’s the difference between this governance and the church org you describe? Your described type of church participation is voluntary. No locks on the doors keeping people in such a churcb.

  70. Headless Unicorn Guy: Nobody tells The CELEBRITY anything other than what The CELEBRITY wants to hear.
    Especially when The CEELBRITY has power over those who would tell him anything.
    Result? North Korea levels of Praise, Adoration, and Flattery.

    Tell me again about God’s Ways NOT being like The World’s…

    Good point.

    Back when Mahaney forced Larry out I understand both Chuck Thompson and Rodger Dillon questioned What Mahaney did. This led to both of their departures.

  71. CMT,

    I’m not sure which extract you are referring to but it is a point worth raising so on that basis here’s my guess based on procedures I’ve observed in certain cases.

    The speaker / writer / person in authority has cribbed / been supplied with a genuine analysis that had been made by someone else, and then goes about muddying waters, levelling, twisting. They don’t mind being caught in the midst of a nexus of evil doing, their admitting it is going to add “authenticity” and designer frisson. Their true value is to not let it be shown who was the injured party (the small person).

    A shop near me that posed as mainstream was full of the goods of this “character” and all the other goons who feature. I’ve known denomination after denomination that models itself on all this.

    As for the geezer with the arms he can’t keep still, and the voice that keeps fading (hasn’t he got anything to say?) he looks as if he is COOKING something.

  72. Muff Potter: It sounds very much like Calvin’s Geneva in a microcosmic present day sense.

    The spirit of Calvin is very much alive in the New Calvinist movement; it has usurped the authority and influence of Jesus.

  73. Ava Aaronson: How authoritarian rule works in a communist party rule country… hierarchy of cadres right down to the local level.

    Much has been said on TWW and elsewhere about the similarities with NeoCal-Calvinista-9Marx authoritarian church governance and indoctrination.

  74. Max: The spirit of Calvin is very much alive in the New Calvinist movement; it has usurped the authority and influence of Jesus.

    Who needs Christ when you have CALVIN?
    CALVIN Who Has God All Figured Out!

  75. Ava Aaronson: There’s a myth somewhere that having a despot dynasty creates a better society.

    It DOES if you’re the despot’s Court Favorites.

  76. Ava Aaronson: What’s the difference between a despot dynasty and a strongman guru leader nda covenant church?

    American Evangelicals (i.e. The Only Real True Christians) have demonstrated a Bella-and-EDWARD level of LURVE for despots and wanna-be despots, so long as the despots are Real True Christians (real or imagined).

    Harley Quinn Syndrome with Bible Verses, whose Jokers vary from Montt of Guatemala in the Eighties to Trump from 2016-present.

  77. What would CJ Mahaney ever have been if not for Mark Dever, Albert Mohler and Ligon Duncan? Would anyone nationally have ever heard of this charlatan. It appears that they made a lot of money in T4G. He was the guy that knew how to do it. Dee pointed this out a long time ago. All three of those men in my opinion have egg all over their face and have gotten into more trouble since associating themselves with CJ?
    Mohler could only come in 3rd for President of SBC. At one time this was the man that had ultimate influence in BigEVA. How the mighty have fallen.
    The last T4G is coming. The influence is gone. I would say it looks as if they “sold their birthright for bowl of soup”. Speaking of repentance. Have any of them admitted their error in any real fashion. Other than it looks like they are sorry they got caught?

  78. Ken A: What would CJ Mahaney ever have been if not for Mark Dever, Albert Mohler and Ligon Duncan? Would anyone nationally have ever heard of this charlatan. It appears that they made a lot of money in T4G. He was the guy that knew how to do it.

    Yes, Mahaney never fit with that distinguished crowd of witnesses. But he knew how to plant churches and make money. The New Calvinist movement needed his smarts in that regard, even though he wasn’t as intellectual as the elite new reformers. They needed Mahaney to round out T4G’s Fab Four before moving full force to Calvinize the American church, even though much of it didn’t want to go there. In the process, C.J. went from “Mahaney who?” and is quickly getting back there.

  79. Ken A: Speaking of repentance. Have any of them admitted their error in any real fashion.

    I would say that the word “repent” only comes up in the context of “Repent of what?!!” Remember, the NeoCal elite are distinguished by arrogance not love … they will never (no not ever) admit wrong … although Mohler sort of got close when he distanced himself from Mahaney.

  80. Max,

    Max you were commenting on this blog from that time I know. I think you had left the SBC to never go back. You were right. What a mess it is. It turns out that you were very discerning!

  81. Ken A: I think you had left the SBC to never go back.

    SBC left me. After several decades of SBC membership, the denomination made a wrong turn when Mohler, his New Calvinists, and their aberrant theology took over. It’s not the same organization I joined. There was good reason why SBC distanced itself from the founders’ theology following the Civil War. It remained distinctly non-Calvinist in belief and practice for 150 years, until Mohler decided to drag the denomination back to its roots without asking millions of members if they wanted to make that journey. A once-great evangelistic denomination is no more. Church history will not be kind to the New Calvinist movement when their dust is settled and it fades into obscurity.

  82. Ken A: Mohler could only come in 3rd for President of SBC. At one time this was the man that had ultimate influence in BigEVA. How the mighty have fallen.

    Mohler may be done, but he hasn’t quit yet. He is trying to reinvent himself to stay on top the New Calvinist mountain.

  83. Max,

    Good to see that you finally acknowledge that the SBC’s roots were Calvinist, Max.
    🙂

    Muff Potter,

    Geneva was never Calvin’s as his many biographies show.

    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Some things never change, even though he’s been dead for a few hundred years – this from his own time -“Calvin’s resolute will enabled him to endure abuse and opposition both from within and from outside the church. Members of his own church named their dogs Calvin, loudly belched and farted as he was preaching, fired their guns outside his home, and threatened his life. The Anabaptists and the Roman Catholics exhausted their storehouse of ridicule and reproach in hatred of him. However, Calvin never compromised his confession of the truth or wavered in his stand on behalf of it..
    (The Reformed Faith of John Calvin: The Institutes in Summary, David J Engelsma)

  84. Max:Church history will not be kind to the New Calvinist movement when their dust is settled and it fades into obscurity.

    You may be right, but the heading for the 1980-2020 US section in Church History 101 textbooks will be ‘The Abject Failure of the Megachurch.’ Some of that overlaps with New Calvinism, most of it does not.

  85. Lowlandseer: Geneva was never Calvin’s as his many biographies show.

    Public floggings, brutal executions,… all done at his behest and say-so for not believing a certain way… I’d argue that Calvin owned the place.

  86. Muff Potter: Public floggings, brutal executions,… all done at his behest and say-so for not believing a certain way…

    It was all predestined – he could not have done otherwise.

  87. Headless Unicorn Guy: It DOES if you’re the despot’s Court Favorites.

    True. Dear Leader always grooms an inner ring, and holds them in place by the …

    It’s almost surreal that satan (the ultimate Dear Leader) had the religious elite as his own special inner ring during the time of Christ… and they were the ones who set up the execution of the Son of God. Judas crossed over to that Dark Side Inner Circle from Jesus’ own inner circle. Judas carved his personal path to Hell.

    Ya think that has happened since? IMHO, it’s surreal to even think about this happening. Truth is stranger than fiction. Utterly shocking.

  88. marco: the heading for the 1980-2020 US section in Church History 101 textbooks will be ‘The Abject Failure of the Megachurch.’ Some of that overlaps with New Calvinism, most of it does not.

    Oh yes! Mega-mania will definitely be the headline … big screens, fog machines, skinny jeans … Christian celebrities … personality cults … money machine … etc.

    New Calvinism will capture a key spot in church history as well, with a profile of all the bad-boy elite leaders, their deception to takeover the American church with the “one true gospel”, indoctrination of young minds with aberrant theology, etc.

    And, of course, related to those remarkable phenomena, will be a documentation of the largest growing Christian population during that time period … the “Dones” (done with the organized church mess, but not done with Jesus).

  89. Muff Potter: Calvin owned the place

    He had the magistrate in Geneva in his pocket … willing to execute his beckoned will. His Christian “utopia” was anything but that for those who would not accept his theology and control – they were shunned, exiled, imprisoned, tortured, executed.

  90. Lowlandseer: Good to see that you finally acknowledge that the SBC’s roots were Calvinist

    Oh yeah. No doubt about it; never denied it. It is church history! SBC founders were slave-holding Calvinists in the South, including pastors and elders/deacons. They believed that sovereign God was on their side during the Civil War, until early Confederate victories turned to defeat. After the War, Southern Baptists distanced themselves from the founders’ theology and remained distinctly non-Calvinist in belief and practice for 150 years … until Al Mohler began dragging them back to their roots. Many long-time SBCers have joined the Done ranks … tens of thousands of non-Calvinist members are dropping out of SBC every year and taking their dollars with them … mission agencies have been gutted … evangelism has taken a hit … the New Calvinists are having trouble keeping the lights on in the churches they took over by stealth and deception. The fingerprints of God on the movement are hard to find.

  91. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Yes, but how many ‘Calvins’ are there? The various reformed legacies range from the fairly mainstream Dutch Reformed Church in the Northeast of our country, all the way to the heavily conservative politicized crazies who are into ’empathy is a sin’ and who target ‘the others’ as ‘unsavables’. . . . scary stuff being taught at this end as ‘Christian’, yes . . .

    In the middle, you get quite a variety of ‘reformed’ beliefs and praxis. My goodness, I doubt even Calvin himself would recognize some of the stuff on display. Probably not.

    I mean the title ‘reformed’ sounds innocuous enough, and then you run into a Doug Wilson and his cult . . . hard to even process the extreme ‘range’ offered as inspired by Calvin’s teachings

    ?

  92. Ava Aaronson: Headless Unicorn Guy: It DOES if you’re the despot’s Court Favorites.

    True. Dear Leader always grooms an inner ring, and holds them in place by the …

    An you KNOW You’re this week’s Court Favorite because Dear Leader handed you the bowstring for last week’s Court Favorite!

  93. Max: Muff Potter: Calvin owned the place

    He had the magistrate in Geneva in his pocket … willing to execute his beckoned will. His Christian “utopia” was anything but that for those who would not accept his theology and control – they were shunned, exiled, imprisoned, tortured, executed.

    Like I have often said about the Seven Mountains Mandate, Reconstructionaists, Christian Nationalists, and other Handmaid’s Tale as How-To Manual types:

    After a generation or two of actually living in such a Godly Christian Nation, the name “Jesus Christ” will have acquired the exact same baggage as the name “Adolf Hitler”.

  94. christiane: Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Yes, but how many ‘Calvins’ are there? The various reformed legacies range from the fairly mainstream Dutch Reformed Church in the Northeast of our country, all the way to the heavily conservative politicized crazies who are into ’empathy is a sin’ and who target ‘the others’ as ‘unsavables’. . . . scary stuff being taught at this end as ‘Christian’, yes . .

    Doesn’t matter how many there are at the start of The Game.
    The Iron Throne has room for only One.

  95. christiane: how many ‘Calvins’ are there? … quite a variety of ‘reformed’ beliefs and praxis

    There are more flavors of reformed theology than Baskins-Robbins’ ice cream!

  96. One thing I have noticed with those that promote Calvinism is that they really want to downplay the “election” portion. That is, they don’t want to admit things like no matter how well a parent raises their child, if God doesn’t choose to elect that child to salvation, then there is nothing they can do.

    If you are going to claim to believe in Calvinism, then accept all of what it teaches including the harder potions to accept.

    Also, in Sovereign Grace Churches, you would see leadership discipline leaders for the actions of their child including them not coming to Christ. If you teach that someone’s salvation is all determine by God, then be consistent. If the child hasn’t come to Christ, then either God hasn’t yet selected them and given the child irresistible grace.

    Why punish the parents when they teach that this is all God’s doing?

  97. One other thought and someone else shared this a long time ago, Mahaney is acting similar to Ahab when Ahab called Elija “the troubler of Israel.” Elijah responded back that it was Ahab who was the troubler of Israel due to his sin.

    Just like Ahab C.J. Mahaney can’t see that his own sin has brought him down.

    I do wonder if eventually the proverb:

    “He who is often reproved, yet stiffens his neck,
    will suddenly be broken beyond healing.” Prov 29:1

    will eventually happen with Mahaney? Maybe the problem is Mahaney’s fellow leaders didn’t reprove him like they should have.

  98. Steve240: One thing I have noticed with those that promote Calvinism is that they really want to downplay the “election” portion.

    You only say that because you don’t understand Calvinism. I say that in jest, but it is how Calvinists almost always reply to observations like this. In actuality, no one understands Calvinism, not even Calvinists. The problem is Christianity has unsolvable mystery, and Calvinists try to remove as much of it as possible, but only end up creating more problems than they solve. They eventually accept mystery, but only after inflicting quite a lot of damage in the process of getting there. Early Christianity was much quicker to embrace mystery.

    This link with an excerpt from GK Chesterton’s Orthodoxy is not too long (but the commentary and comments are). It nicely captures the issue.
    https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-backroom/1203505/posts?page=460

  99. Mahaney with another masterful performance——playing the victim, attempting to garner support for his cycle of spiritual/emotional abuse.

    Persecutor -> Victim -> Savior

    Repeat. One cannot exist without the other. An endless cycle.

    This is the cycle of abuse.

    Just as Mahaney’s Christ never leaves the cross, so the “family of churches” known as SGC, and the people therein, are stuck in this abusive cycle.

  100. I despair at the condition that evangelicalism is in right now. On the one hand, political activism, outright endorsing one party or political ideology over the other. On the other hand, hypocrisy, shielding of rapists and abusers, is there no sin that we won’t endorse? When will we heed and tremble at the words of 1 Corinthians? One thing that I’ll never forget from Julie Roys: the wolves within the church in Iran have run away in the face of extreme persecution, leaving the sheep to be defended by the True Shepherd! Come Lord Jesus, refine us in Your holy fire!

  101. If this is all true you should be weeping for C.J. not making sarcastic remarks.
    It looks as if your main aim is not to warn but to criticise.
    Do you have a Christlike attitude?