Is Covenantal Membership Just Another Way to Become a Member of a Borg Collective?

An Infrared View of the M81 Galaxy

“I know now, Lord, why you utter no answer. You are yourself the answer. Before your face questions die away. What other answer would suffice?”
C.S. Lewis


Recently, The Gospel Coalition posted Think Wisely About Leaving Your Church. This was written by Matt Hodges who is a pastor at Risen Church in Cypress, Texas. Hodges, like many other churches and pastors, is apparently frustrated that people come and go in his church. Although the pandemic is often blamed for people not coming back to church, I can well assure the reader that the quickly graying and not-so-young, restless and Reformed have been moaning about this for the last decade.

Before I begin, I think it might be helpful to review my own church attendance record. basically, my husband and I would find a church when we moved for his training and stay there until we moved again. In general, I’m one of those people who find something I like and stick with it. The same goes for my doctors, dentists, and stylists. However, when I moved to Raleigh from Texas, we found ourselves in a church that we needed to leave. From there we went on a journey in which we found ourselves switching churches five times until we found our current Lutheran church.

We were frustrated because there were some very good reasons why our choices did not work out. Back in the early days of blogging, I found there were a number of Reformedish churches (take Sovereign Grace for one) that compared church membership to being married. You know, until death do you part? As we shall see, this writer comes from a church that hints around about such a relationship but we’ll get there momentarily.

Is it a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th issue? What does he mean?

The author says we must be sure we are leaving the church due to really important matters or what he might say are first or secondary issues. He does not carefully define what he means by secondary, third, or fourth issues. In fact, he only refers us to a book on Amazon and leaves it there. The reason I read a post is that I want a synopsis of the issue and don’t have time at the moment to read a book so I understand an article. Sadly, it causes me to assume what the author means by “theological triage” but I can’t be sure because he doesn’t tell me.

As for a primary issue, Hodges says:

The degree of a doctrine’s centrality to the gospel should determine the degree to which we’re willing to draw dividing lines over it.

Later in the post, he says this which gives us some clue but not enough.

Some second-rank (“non-gospel”) matters will inevitably lead to mutually exclusive convictions about local church ministry, and that’s okay.

Sneaky Christians, Trojan horses, and 3rd or 4th issues.

He gives no examples of 3rd or 4th issues yet he claims that we should not divide over them. To make matters even more confusing, he claims sometimes we Christians are sometimes duplicitous, pretending something is primary when it is really only a level 3 or 4 reason for leaving the church.

At the outset, we must beware of Trojan horses. Like Odysseus smuggling his soldiers inside the walls of Troy in a giant horse, we sometimes smuggle tertiary concerns under the guise of a first or second-rank theological matter, hiding our real reasons for breaking fellowship inside something apparently more significant.

He says we get sneaky in two ways. We may try

“catastrophizing.” This happens when we elevate an issue to undue importance, raising a third or fourth-rank issue to the severity of first rank. We take a narrow theological topic and turn it into a litmus test of gospel faithfulness.

Or we try

theologizing,” occurs when we smuggle in our personal preferences—whether cultural, political, or otherwise—under the guise of theological conviction. We attach moral and theological value to things that are otherwise morally neutral or merely preferential.

I was confused by the “cultural, political, or otherwise” comment. What in the world does he mean by otherwise?

Ask questions but not too much

The following statement is a classic for “The Gospel Coalition” types. In fact, it was this statement that caused me to look a bit further into his church but more on that in a minute.

Don’t leave without asking questions. And note: asking questions and a questioning spirit are different. Asking questions with sincerity and humility is what we do when we are trying to genuinely understand. Questioning with a spirit of cynicism is what we do when we are trying to prove someone wrong.

When I read something like this, I can sense where this is going. If you ask the wrong question or one too many questions, you will be judged as lacking sincerity or humility and you may even be called a cynic. What this means is you miffed off the leadership and suddenly you have been elevated to a level one priority for church discipline.

But, they really, really want you to stay since this is really not a level 1 “gospelly” type of issue.

He claims unity is what is important.

But we must recognize what is at stake in our divisions. Just before he goes to the cross, Jesus prays that his followers would be unified and says that our unity will be the means by which the world knows God’s love (John 17:20–24). According to Jesus, our unity is an important witness.

Unity? As you may know, I live in the shadow of SEBTS. There are so many covert Baptist churches here that you can’t drive into a retail park with more than three offices without seeing another startup church. So many startups and so many disappearances (failures?) Yet this is unity? A poor slug who goes to one of these storefront churches and decides it’s not for him due to things like being asked to do too much or to give more money so they can move to a better location is the one not seeking unity?

What worries me about this post and about Risen Church

The author is a pastor at Risen Church. They believe in a stiff and rigid covenantal-based church. If this post is any indication of the rather ill-defined hierarchy of values and doctrine, combined with what they claim is a rigid covenant, then I think there will be a play for an authoritarian-based leadership. And that spells trouble in Risen City for the members.

Risen Church has a stiff, rigid, formal covenant and this is really good, isn’t it?

I knew it was all over when they started quoting Wayne Grudem, the author of the 83 rules for women in the church. Please go to this membership page and read all about it.

Does it really matter if I’m a member or not? Why do I have to take a class to even become a member? Why do I have to sign anything? People often ask these questions about our membership process, skeptical as to why there seem to be so many “hoops” to jump through.

It’s true. We take membership seriously and with a lot of gravity. Committing yourself to a body of believers is weighty. But it’s also wonderful. When Covenant Members join, they commit to a spiritual family that provides encouragement and support. They are called to a biblical degree of responsibility, service and sacrifice to their brothers and sisters. Our elders and leaders also pledge to assist our Covenant Members with care, counsel, prayer and teaching.

…Covenants are not only the foundation to membership in the church, but they are the foundation to the Christian life. They have to be formal, rigid and stiff in order to brace God’s people from the onslaught of living in a fallen world.

Risen Church is part of the collective

I had to laugh when I found this statement on their website.

RISEN CHURCH NORTH IS
A PART OF THE RISEN COLLECTIVE.

Good night! Do they not have any Star Trek fans in their leadership? Every being in the Borg Collective was expected to rigidly follow all of the rules imposed on them. Maybe they inadvertently told us what to expect and saved us a lot of time. Caveat Emptor!

 

Comments

Is Covenantal Membership Just Another Way to Become a Member of a Borg Collective? — 136 Comments

  1. ”We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.”

    Church motto???

  2. The Church of Borg.

    “Once you’ve been Assimilated, it’s a long way back. Just ask Seven of Nine.”

  3. I don’t think they really know what they want most. Is it money from folks or control over folks? They get both of course.

    Is it that they get more money when they have more people to control?

    Or is their getting money a nice side benefit of the real mission at their heart – the rush of controlling other people?

    Another nice side benefit is that they don’t get questioned too deeply about very many things in their life that might be “sensitive”.

  4. I find NT Wright’s characterization of the early churches to be useful. In one of his talks/lectures/sermons on YouTube, he characterizes the New Testament churches as

    ‘ethically rigorous philanthropic fictive kinship groups’

    Alas, the present day groups under consideration do not seem to be very philanthropic (‘keep up with the expansion giving requirements, you debt-ridden unemployed slackers’), or nearly as ethically rigorous as the early churches (Paul plainly called out the transgression in 1 Cor 5; nowadays we are supposed to not attend to such facts, especially if they concern the leaders).

    I guess that you could still call them ‘fictive kinship groups’, but I suspect that the emphasis is on ‘fictive’ more than ‘kinship’.

  5. That Gospel Coalition article was vague and platitudinous. If I were talking to the author, I would ask, “What, exactly, do you mean by that?” and “Can you please give me a specific example?” a lot.

    Is that a “spirit of cynicism”?

  6. Cynthia W.,

    A charitable interpretation would be that the author has been experiencing long COVID brain fog.

    Perhaps the virus was circulating in that subsection of the population (they do tend to congregate periodically in large dense crowds) long before it broke out into wider community spread.

  7. “unity” was what led me to finally stop attending, circa 2010, the wannabe-mega that had embarked on an ambitious expansion plan that went pear-shaped in the global financial crisis and great recession.

    Early in this process, the preaching agenda was ‘why this expansion plan is God’s Will for us.’ It was, IMO, a kind of unbiblical conscience-binding. After the congregation authorized the plan(the bylaws required approval of such a large agenda by the congregation in a vote at a noticed meeting), the preaching agenda shifted to various ways of motivating people to fulfill the fund-raising plan. This was, understandably, difficult in the wider economic context, and there was a bit of creative exegesis at places to maintain pressure on the masses while not alienating the 1% within the congregation (the series on James especially exhibited this).

    Finally, after it became clear that the goal would not be met and the congregation would become homeless for an extended season, the preaching shifted yet again to explain that the leaders really had accurately perceived God’s will for the congregation but that they had not accurately forecast the route by which God would bring the group into the promised land.

    Throughout this process I was having ongoing internal arguments with the direction in which the congregation was being led. It was extremely difficult to find workable ways of expressing my concerns. During the first phase of the ‘vision casting’, the teaching emphasis included an extended period of focus on ‘how to make big decisions biblically’. In this teaching period, to put it bluntly, ‘wisdom’ considerations were deprecated as being ‘sight’, and ‘faith’ considerations were elevated. There was a lot of talk about ‘hearing the Voice of God’, and I felt that I could not speak my valid ‘wisdom consideration concerns’ because these had been publicly characterized as “not of faith” — functionally the voice of some speaker other than God. In these circumstances, I feared that to bring up wisdom considerations would actually promote the leaders’ disregard of them.

    (what concerns?: the evidence of looming recession, which was plain to those with eyes to see; the housing market peaked during this period, and it was widely known among specialists, who were yelling into the blogosphere, that there would be a securitized debt crisis due to uncollectible subprime housing loans. I think one had to be willfully blind in this period to not be anxious about near-term economic prospects)

    When the preaching agenda shifted into CYA mode, I found myself internally arguing with every sermon while the sermon was still being delivered.

    I did not want to damage the unity of the congregation, so I could not speak my thoughts to fellow members. I did not want to live behind a mask either, and lie if asked about what I thought about the situation, so I started avoiding interaction with members.

    At that point, I realized that, in spite of my formal ‘on paper’ status, I was no longer a member of the congregation, and I stopped attending.

    Probably should have done that years sooner.

  8. I struggle with the idea of church membership.

    At face value, I see how it can benefit a local body. Commitment produces responsibility. Each member should feel both responsible and equipped to exercise their gifts to edify and serve the other believers in that local body.

    HOWEVER…

    I believe the problem lies not in the idea of membership, but rather in how many of these churches are led. When a church is run like a corporation and the goal of the church is to expand, grow, attract, influence culture, etc… this is when the idea of membership can easily become a vehicle to use people to further the mission and vision of that particular “visionary leader”. This is breeding ground for narcissistic and abusive leaders to thrive and prey.

    MOD: If you keep changing your name you’ll keep being moderated.

  9. Samuel Conner,

    Writers who start from the premise that asking questions is suspect have no particular motivation to explain themselves clearly. People who say, “Can you provide an example to illustrate your point?” just have a bad spirit, not a good point.

  10. This article explains the idea of theological triage, which is generally credited to Al Mohler. (By the way, the book recommended in the article you’re commenting on was written by one of the authors of this article, and is very good. “Finding the right hills to die on”) The whole problem with the idea, however, is what to do when people don’t agree on the level of importance of various issue and which are worth dividing or separating over. That usually comes with the lesser important issues that someone will consider of most importance – for ex. Ken Ham on creation.
    https://ps.edu/what-is-theological-triage/

  11. Arlene,

    Nice summary…. What is important to one person, might not be as important to another…. And then, who decides? We sure plenty of examples on TWW where “dear leader” tells everyone what is “important”..

  12. From the Risen Church Membership page:

    All throughout Scripture, believers are called to (among many others things) love one another, outdo one another in showing honor, live at peace with one another, teach, exhort, comfort, serve, bear the burdens of, forgive, encourage, and seek to do good to one another. While there may be other secondary or tertiary means through which believers strive to walk in obedience to these commands, the primary means is the local church.

    The primary means is the local church? Seriously???

    Cynically asked rhetorical questions: What do does Risen Church consider secondary or tertiary? And how does a person love their neighbour as themself when not at or with people from the local church?

  13. Arlene: of theological triage

    I think this is a useful concept, but I also think that it’s fundamentally asymmetric when viewed from the perspective of a church authority versus the laity.

    From the laity’s perspective, there are very few reasons to disfellowship (and this is understandably the perspective the authorities want them to take).

    But things look very different from the authorities’ perspective. The whole reason that there is the vast proliferation of distinct polities, denominations and autonomous individual congregations is that the entire gamut of issues, ‘black tag’ through ‘yellow tag’, are regarded to be important enough to separate over.

    So when a church authority asks you to ‘not separate’ over a ‘red’, ‘orange’ or ‘yellow’ issue, he’s indicting the entire history of the Protestant movement and his own present place in it.

    It makes no sense to ask a lay member of a Protestant church to separate only over ‘red tag’ issues.

  14. “… it causes me to assume what the author means by “theological triage” but I can’t be sure because he doesn’t tell me …”

    It appears that Mr. Hodges has borrowed Al Mohler’s thoughts on “theological triage” … Mohler essentially coined that term in 2005 to defend the New Calvinist takeover of SBC as nothing to worry about. Apparently, the non-Calvinist Southern Baptist majority bought his argument since they quietly submitted to a shift in theology and ecclesiology as the NeoCal movement swept through SBC. Mohler put God’s plan of salvation (predestined elect vs. whosoever will may come) in a lower triage of items not to fuss about … which I took opposition to then and still do.

    https://albertmohler.com/2005/07/12/a-call-for-theological-triage-and-christian-maturity

  15. From the Risen Church Membership page:

    Membership in the local church is about covenanting with others in the church as a community of faith on a unique and common mission. It is an affirmation and agreement to contribute to the good of the body rather than consume from it. It is an obligation to sacrificially seek the good of others in the body of Christ by taking the general call toward service….and actually living out that call….within a particular group of people.

    So a person attending Risen Church is to give (in any number of ways) until they are (in any number of ways) exhausted….

  16. researcher: What do does Risen Church consider secondary or tertiary?

    I guarantee you that soteriology would be considered a secondary/tertiary non-essential at Risen Church. The New Calvinists don’t want folks to know that they are not preaching a message to bring ALL people to salvation, so they want everyone to know it’s just not that big a deal to be proclaiming ‘another’ gospel which is not ‘the’ Gospel at all.

  17. Max: I guarantee you that soteriology would be considered a secondary/tertiary non-essential at Risen Church

    … along with authoritarian elder-rule instead of congregational governance and complementarian bondage of wimmenfolk. These are just non-essentials that church members should not be bothered about … even though you will be shunned/excommunicated if you challenge the elders over belief and practice or if you are a female believer operating outside your gender role as defined by them.

  18. Max,

    This is an illustration of the asymmetry of the “theological triage” concept. From AM’s perspective, it is desirable that the laity not consider predestinarianism a ‘black tag’ issue. But also from his perspective, non-predestinarianism should be opposed wherever it is encountered. It’s a ‘black tag’ issue from the point of view of predestinarians, and it’s strategically useful to portray it is ‘not all that important’ to those who otherwise might oppose it.

    Realistically, we Protestants should admit that separation is in our nature.

    To borrow a memorable line from “Raising Arizona”, for us, to separate is to be true to one’s nature.

  19. “He claims unity is what is important”

    In the early days of the New Calvinist movement within SBC, Southern Baptists asked its Executive Committee to look into this. A major concern was the stealth and deception by young reformers who were taking over traditional non-Calvinist churches by lying to pastor search committees about their theological leaning. The SBC Executive Committee CEO/President at the time was Frank Page (who later resigned due to moral failure). Page was a one-time vocal anti-Calvinist, who even wrote a book “Trouble With the TULIP” (TULIP referring to an acronym for the tenets of reformed theology). Page’s Committee on Calvinism was populated by various SBC elite, including Al Mohler. After months of “investigation”, the Committee concluded that the NeoCal movement was not that big a deal and that Southern Baptists should rally around unity, agree to disagree, go along to get along, and make room under the big SBC tent for diverse theologies. That signaled the beginning of the end for the SBC, a once-great evangelistic denomination which preached whosoever-will-may-come around the world. Unity? It ain’t working.

  20. Samuel Conner: From AM’s perspective, it is desirable that the laity not consider predestinarianism a ‘black tag’ issue.

    But in his heart of hearts, Big Al considers reformed theology the only option for true believers:

    “Where else are they gonna go? I mean, what options are there? If you’re a theologically minded, deeply convictional young evangelical, if you’re committed to the gospel and you want to see the nations rejoice in the name of Christ, if you want to see gospel-built and structured and committed churches, your theology is just gonna end up basically being Reformed, basically being something like this New Calvinism or you’re gonna have to invent some other label for what’s just gonna be the same thing. There just are not options out there. And that’s something that I think frustrates some people. But when I am asked about the New Calvinism, I will say just basically, where else are they gonna go? Who else is gonna answer the questions? Where else will they find the resources they need? And where else are they gonna connect? This is a generation that understands, they want to say the same thing Paul said. They want to stand with the Apostles. They want to stand with old, dead people. And they know they are going to have to if they are going to preach and teach the truth.” (Al Mohler, 2010)

  21. Max: under the big SBC tent for diverse theologies

    It seems to me that the charge of “concealing a lesser matter within a greater one” can be leveled at the hierarchy.

    Isn’t it the case that “complementarianism”, which its advocates want its opponents to regard to be a ‘non-vital’ matter, is from inside the movement regarded to be an essential concept due to theological association with ESS? From inside the movement, if you reject complementarianism, aren’t are impairing a core tenet of their preferred vision of intra-Trinitarian relations?

    There is no Big Tent. It’s a small tent, and you ain’t in it.

  22. researcher: And how does a person love their neighbour as themself when not at or with people from the local church?

    Well, some in the camp claim that “your neighbor” is really only your church community. Guess you’d better be at a local church or you’re a sinner. Someone did an entire teaching on this. Twisted scripture . . . nothing like what Jesus meant.

  23. Wojo: When a church is run like a corporation and the goal of the church is to expand, grow, attract, influence culture, etc…

    That’s how it works in our area.

    The successful megas are run like businesses with businessmen pastors who shower their inner circle of CEO and local celebrity wealthy donors (boardmembers) with attention while ignoring anyone who questions or doesn’t fit their desired demographic ($$$ + community standing).

    The non-monied ordinary person can work their way into the inner circle (literally, like volunteer A LOT). Beware of these extreme volunteers (mostly women) … little generals & difficult to work with … kowtow & fall in line to their “earned” position or else …

    Hang out at this type of church and feel negated, ignored, invisible, never good enough. Your Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4, Spiritual Gift given by God Himself, the Holy Spirit, will NEVER be acknowledged UNLESS it is the gift of giving ($$$) or the gift of service (mega volunteering).

    Church corporations are fueled by 2 gifts + Dear Leader Church CEO pastor. The Inner Circle. Everyone else is clawing to get there or feeling useless while being completely ignored and marginalized.

    The 2 gifts + Dear Leader formula has built all the megas in our area.

    Rick Warren’s gameplan maps out the strategy.

    Hybels added stage talent and a Good Look for Sunday Services (casino-like entertainment… so there’s that, too).

    Not a covenant per se. It’s control via Dear Leader attention and marginalisation. Works in spades (and $$$).

  24. Max,

    Mr M shoots himself in the foot in this 2010 article for 9Marks. He says “In recent years, the issue of women serving as pastors has emerged as another second-order issue. Again, a church or denomination either will ordain women to the pastorate, or it will not. Second-order issues resist easy settlement by those who would prefer an either/or approach. Many of the most heated disagreements among serious believers take place at the second-order level, for these issues frame our understanding of the church and its ordering by the Word of God.”

    If women pastors is a secondary issue, why does he treat it as a primary one?

  25. Headless Unicorn Guy:
    In the words of the Prophet Steve Taylor, circa 1983:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKeHqXVPFno

    That is painfully on the nose.

    The biggest red flag I see with the article is that Hodges paints all disagreements as disagreements over theology. How does that map onto confronting an overtly narcissistic pastor?

    Here’s a bit of my story: I left my church of 8 years because the pastor was bullying people over what are almost certainly third or fourth tier issues in that framework. Because he is a narcissist, every time you’d confront him he’d try to smooth it over in private and convince you that you really believed the same thing (and when you walked away you’d immediately start questioning whether you agreed). I left with a large group that chose to knuckle down and confront him and the elders. Rather than address the points of our concern, the method of us bringing up the issues was attacked and we were divided and conquered until all but one couple gave up and just went through whatever motions got us out of the toxic situation so we could start healing.

    What resonates with this story is the other singles and families that left after us, and how so many of them specifically said they had to find ‘acceptable’ reasons for leaving. If you said you were leaving because the pastor was mistreating people, you would be accused of not reconciling with him.

    And reconciling with him meant meeting with him so he could use the narcissist’s playbook on you:
    That didn’t happen
    If it did happen, it wasn’t my fault
    If it was my fault, it wasn’t a big deal
    If it was a big deal I didn’t mean it
    If I did mean it, you deserved it.

  26. As I read above I went through a list in my mind why I have left churches over the years;
    A. Legalism. We have a lot of freedom in Christ to believe after the essentials and several churches I attended were legalistic with a whole set of written and unwritten rules that took my joy away. Like a friend of mine said “ he has never met a happy legalistic.” I was miserable and felt like I was on a treadmill. The rules wore me out.

    B. Not geared to care. I went to a church for awhile that was friendly but the people really didn’t want to get to know me. I was going through a tough divorce, didn’t have a lot to give and sure needed some help and friendship and love. A smile and a handshake with “ glad your here” and nothing more didn’t cut it for me. I shared my struggles but no invitations to lunch or dinner or a cup of coffee to talk.

    C. Money! Never enough and every other sermon was on giving, enough said.

    D. Cliques. Went to a church for 10 years and there was an in group and an out group. In group hung out and ate and etc, out group none of the above. When I left that church after my divorce not one person really reached out to me. I got burned bad and it hurt.

    E. Overbearing and or bully pastors, we touched on that above.

    Well those are my reasons. Right now I am in a good church that helped me through my divorce, I have a great pastor who is my friend and cares about me and a group of friends that I feel free to share my doubts and concerns about my faith. Those churches exist but like gold or diamonds they are rare and hard to find.

  27. Lowlandseer: Mr M shoots himself in the foot in this 2010 article for 9Marks … If women pastors is a secondary issue, why does he treat it as a primary one?

    Mohler is infamous for speaking out of both sides of his mouth. He made the issue of women in leadership a HUGE issue when he cleared the house at SBTS, after assuming the presidency there in 1993, of faculty resisting his complementarian views. He’s a slick one. Southern Baptists should have kicked his behind out of SBC years ago.

  28. Chuck P: Those churches exist but like gold or diamonds they are rare and hard to find.

    Across the American landscape, they are the needle in a haystack … a rare and endangered species … a treasure buried in the field.

  29. Lowlandseer: If women pastors is a secondary issue, why does he treat it as a primary one?

    Because Paul’s writings are to them what Torah is to ultra-orthodox Jews.

  30. Muff Potter: Paul’s writings are to them what Torah is to ultra-orthodox Jews

    Ahhh, but if the NeoCals filtered Paul’s epistles through the teachings of Jesus (from the Gospels, which they seldom quote), Paul’s writings would come into perspective. With a little text out of context and cherry-picking passages, a crafty preacher can make the Bible say what he wants it to.

  31. Chuck P,

    Your list seems to be Passive Aggressive Covenantism.

    If you’re not the demographic the Dear Leader is seeking, you’re ghosted.

    Going through a fresh divorce? Not Dear Leader’s Give-It(Me)-All-You-Got demographic (money, time, Good Look). So, invisible. There, not there.

  32. Chuck P: ight now I am in a good church that helped me through my divorce, I have a great pastor who is my friend and cares about me and a group of friends that I feel free to share my doubts and concerns about my faith. Those churches exist but like gold or diamonds they are rare and hard to find.

    I went through some of what you experienced. It took me awhile to find the right church. Finally…So glad for you. I’m sorry for what you endured. Awesome comment.

  33. Max: a crafty preacher can make the Bible say what he wants it to.

    You ain’t just a whistlin’ Dixie they can!

  34. dee,

    Thx. Love your post.

    Listening to Leah’s and Mike’s “Fair Game” podcast interview of filmmaker Aaron Kaufman regarding his documentary on JWs for Vice TV. It focuses on the database containing allegations of sexual abuse amassed by the org which they refuse to make public.

    Cults, covenants, and control. Parallels. All reporting of impropriety must be contained inhouse. No LE, no DOJ. Etc.

    They note: Whenever a Dear Leader/Dear Group forces (covenants) (controls) a person to act against their own best self-interest*, it’s a cult.

    *tithe when in debt
    *not report violation
    *stay in DV
    *donate time & money better spent on children, family
    *patriarchy
    *racism, sexism, ageism, misogyny, elitism
    Etc.

  35. researcher: The primary means is the local church? Seriously???

    Also on The Risen Church’s site is what Dee quoted in her post. Emphasis mine:

    Covenants are not only the foundation to membership in the church, but they are the foundation to the Christian life. They have to be formal, rigid and stiff in order to brace God’s people from the onslaught of living in a fallen world.

    I will echo your “Seriously???” and gently remind The Risen Church that Christ is the foundation to the Christian life.

  36. Narcissist’s playbook:

    marco:
    That didn’t happen
    If it did happen, it wasn’t my fault
    If it was my fault, it wasn’t a big deal
    If it was a big deal I didn’t mean it
    If I did mean it, you deserved it.

    I have read of a nearly identical response after atrocities by the Nazis were uncovered. Their sequence of defense went something like this:

    It never happened.
    We didn’t do it.
    You can’t prove it.
    They deserved it.

  37. Ted: It never happened.
    We didn’t do it.
    You can’t prove it.
    They deserved it.

    IOW, no accountability.

    OTOH, a covenant documents accountability, albeit one-way, for attendees but not Dear Leaders.

    Question to churchgoers: are you a faithful covenanted tither, or are you a freeloader?

    We had a pastor who sent out billings to the regular attenders he deemed freeloaders. Church as busine$$. Many attendees left over that debacle. Didn’t end well.

    None of this is in the NT.

    “All authority in heaven & on earth has been given to Me. Therefore go & make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, & HS, & teaching them to obey all I have commanded you. I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Jesus, in Matt 28.

    Covenanting to a local church org must be in the fine print some place, as it doesn’t seem to explicitly appear.

  38. Ted: Also on The Risen Church’s site is what Dee quoted in her post:

    “Covenants are not only the foundation to membership in the church, but they are the foundation to the Christian life. They have to be formal, rigid and stiff in order to brace God’s people from the onslaught of living in a fallen world.”

    The only covenant a believer needs to enter into is the one written in red by Jesus. No other membership contracts required.

    “They have to be formal, rigid and stiff” in order to control the living daylights out of you! Most church membership covenants are designed to manipulate, intimidate and dominate. DO NOT SIGN THEM!!

  39. It would be interesting to see how a “stiff, rigid” covenant compares to the ones already on display at the TWW “church covenants” permanent page.

    Is there any prospect of obtaining a copy of the Risen Church membership covenant?

  40. Here is not the individual membership covenant, but the covenant for churches being assimilated into the Risen Collective:

    https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58fa256ac534a56ac08122cd/t/5f91ddf053808d0135b6bbd9/1603395056273/RC+%7C+Covenant.pdf

    “joining The Risen Collective is a decision to trust the leadership of The Risen Collective Directional Team”

    “All incoming churches shall agree to this covenant. A ‘courtship’, as an effort to foster and facilitate mutual discernment, may be required before full admission. This courtship period will involve a comprehensive explaining and receiving of The Risen Collective values and will be structured and led by The Risen Collective Directional Team. It may include any of the following: elder candidacy, Acts 29 assessment, Risen Church Collective work days, leader trainings, membership classes, etc.”

    “As a church of The Risen Collective, we covenant:
    …..
    5. To share a centralized Covenant Membership Covenant.
    …..
    6. To submit to the authority and oversight of The Risen Collective Directional Team.
    …..”

    [& lots of other howlers, give it a read]

  41. Max: These are just non-essentials that church members should not be bothered about … even though you will be shunned/excommunicated if you challenge the elders over belief and practice or if you are a female believer operating outside your gender role as defined by them.

    Yep. TGC, Al Mohler, and many more say that complementatianism/women’s roles is usually a 3rd tier issue. Yet, they say that allowing women to step outside of their god-given gender boundaries is a slippery slope that will lead, practically, to the destruction of the entire church.

    Uhm …….., so how are restrictions on women and gender roles not 1st tier issues???
    And, How many more “slippery slopes” are there?

  42. Bridget: Well, some in the camp claim that “your neighbor” is really only your church community. Guess you’d better be at a local church or you’re a sinner.

    Years ago, I heard about one group that actually named itself “The Local Church” and claimed the term referred to them and them alone.

  43. marco: The biggest red flag I see with the article is that Hodges paints all disagreements as disagreements over theology. How does that map onto confronting an overtly narcissistic pastor?

    When all you have is a Theology Hammer…

  44. researcher: So a person attending Risen Church is to give (in any number of ways) until they are (in any number of ways) exhausted….

    Yes. Limits are never acknowledged, are they?

    I really appreciated how Richard Foster put it in Celebration of Discipline. To paraphrase, we’re called to submit to one another (or one another’s needs) unless it becomes destructive.

    Unlike the “formal, rigid and stiff” membership at the church above, Foster’s caveat seems to me to provide enough flexibility to be both practical and actually life-giving instead of life-draining.

  45. marco: If you said you were leaving because the pastor was mistreating people, you would be accused of not reconciling with him.

    And reconciling with him meant meeting with him so he could use the narcissist’s playbook on you:

    YES.

    My husband and I emailed a pastor that we were burnt out and taking a sabbatical and the church had major problems. He was all about “reconciliation” as long as he thought there was a way to reel us back in. But when we followed up that we were still willing to meet and chat but knew for our own sake that we couldn’t return, we were literally shunned.

    Sorry you’ve gone through this. It sucks.

  46. Muff Potter: Because Paul’s writings are to them what Torah is to ultra-orthodox Jews.

    You mean like all the women he calls co-workers and (gasp) apostle in Romans 16 (she said winsomely)?

  47. Ted: researcher: The primary means is the local church? Seriously???

    Also on The Risen Church’s site is what Dee quoted in her post. Emphasis mine:

    Covenants are not only the foundation to membership in the church, but they are the foundation to the Christian life. They have to be formal, rigid and stiff in order to brace God’s people from the onslaught of living in a fallen world.

    I will echo your “Seriously???” and gently remind The Risen Church that Christ is the foundation to the Christian life.

    “Formal, rigid and stiff” describes a corpse dressed in a nice suit for viewing – that might be sufficient for the a lifeless churchianity but it is not the Risen Christ.

  48. “Why do I have to sign anything?”

    Did I miss where they offered a specific answer to this question that they say that people might raise?

    “The local church is just a small but important piece of that much larger body, and local church membership is simply an acknowledgement and formalization of what is already true in the relationship between believers in that local body.”

    Combining the two, why can’t someone make “simply an acknowledgment“ of “what is already true in the relationship between believers in that local body“? Why does there have to be signed “formalization“? And if this is such a simple, “Biblical” process, can someone point to where signing some additional document amongst people in order to have a legitimate fellowship is memorialized in Scripture?

    Given the references to freedom, relationship and such, why exactly isn’t this purportedly simple formalization / acknowledgment freely available on the church website? Also, where is the proactive commitment to consequences such as those spelled out in Titus 1, 1st Timothy 3, and so forth regarding those ensconced as leadership? Where is the acknowledgment of the need and priority for accountability, transparency, and oversight regarding a group of people who are going to conceivably be receiving money from the signees indefinitely?

    Recognizing the number of churches under which misuse of power has reportedly occurred, why shouldn’t those seeking fellowship not have to be subjected to what may constitute a level of isolation and what might appear as a pressurized sales pitch in a closed environment — especially if those who “commit“ in writing might be portrayed as those who want to go “deeper” in their faith compared to others who may be accused of having just “dating“ level of commitment versus “marrying” level, as some evidently have put it?

    Also, one might ask why “if they had been of us, they would have remained with us” (cf. 1 John 2:19) isn’t a sufficient “Biblical” standard of commitment for them versus a signed piece of paper making it potentially actionable in this litigious society. Shouldn’t anyone as well as friends, families, and trusted advisors be able to weigh in and pray regarding this “weighty“ commitment with “a lot of gravity”, especially with the number of times that “legal“ just happened to pop up on the page?

    Given how many organizations have used signed agreements not spelled out well or put out publicly but were only revealed in isolated situations — with the less-informed essentially being schooled and lectured in a non-transparent, isolated situation, one may well ask why exactly such a model may be chosen.

  49. Jacob,

    My comment has nothing really to do with the form of a church – liturgical vs. free or whatever. It is about the attitude, spirit and focus.

  50. Jerome:
    Here is not the individual membership covenant, but the covenant for churches being assimilated into the Risen Collective:

    https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58fa256ac534a56ac08122cd/t/5f91ddf053808d0135b6bbd9/1603395056273/RC+%7C+Covenant.pdf

    “joining The Risen Collective is a decision to trust the leadership of The Risen Collective Directional Team”

    “All incoming churches shall agree to this covenant. A ‘courtship’, as an effort to foster and facilitate mutual discernment, may be required before full admission. This courtship period will involve a comprehensive explaining and receiving of The Risen Collective values and will be structured and led by The Risen Collective Directional Team. It may include any of the following: elder candidacy, Acts 29 assessment, Risen Church Collective work days, leader trainings, membership classes, etc.”

    “As a church of The Risen Collective, we covenant:
    …..
    5. To share a centralized Covenant Membership Covenant.
    …..
    6. To submit to the authority and oversight of The Risen Collective Directional Team.
    …..”

    Quite helpful, as with all of this information in front of people, they can make more educated decisions, no?

    “If not already a member of the Acts 29 Network, to be assessed by the Acts 29 assessment process and pursue membership to the Network.
    “We partner with Acts 29 as a third-party assessor of all prospective church planters. If the Acts 29 assessment team delays a Risen Church planter, The Risen Collective Directional Team will reevaluate and construct a plan to move forward.”

    And if your church when added to the church collective agrees to “submit to the authority and oversight of The Risen Collective Directional Team”, do you think it’ll be a good idea to submit to these Acts 29 authorities given their track record?

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/06/26/the-rest-of-the-karen-hinkley-story-dealing-with-the-dallas-morning-news-matt-chandler-and-the-village-church-behind-the-scenes/

  51. On the About Us page, The History section speaks of Providence North Community Church seeking to “start a collective of churches with our friends down the road at Bridgepoint that locked arms with one another.” Here’s an interesting article from Bridgepoint Community Church:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20160913014906/http://www.bridgepointcc.org/blog-archive/2014/11/12/the-bride-of-christ-church-commitment-and-covenant

    “A covenant is both legal and loving in nature. It’s too serious to be merely emotional, but too loving to be merely contractual. It represents a binding, yet sacrificial and joyful agreement, wherein two parties commit to one another. When we join Jesus’ family, we’re making a covenant as a member of his church. Our dedication to the relationship is not based on whether or not our needs are met.”

    “Every day, individuals who claim to follow Jesus believe to be opting out of church, when, in fact, as members of the church already, they are simply choosing to be an unloving bride in one way or another. The brother or sister who chooses not to “go to church” on a Sunday is not opting out of the church, but instead opting out of the privilege of gathering together to worship our great God. The Christian who avoids a church community isn’t simply distancing himself from other people; he’s distancing himself from the way Jesus designed his bride to flourish.”

    “Church isn’t something that we do. It’s something that we are. If we’ve decided to accept Jesus as Lord, then being a part of the church is simply an undeniable reality. We can avoid church gatherings, avoid communal accountability, avoid growing in truth together; but, when we do so, we’re not avoiding “church,” we’re simply saying “I don’t feel like being a good member of the church.” If we want to leave church at the door, then we have to leave Jesus with it. But, if we invite Jesus into our lives, we invite ourselves into the church.”

  52. JDV: avoid growing in truth together;

    Anything in this whole covenant deal about the truth of the hundreds of church leader sexual predators of public record that @RobDownenChron documented?… since we’re covenanting to truth here … just asking.

  53. Wild Honey: Sorry you’ve gone through this. It sucks.

    All these experiences call to mind the value of OT Wisdom about “choosing one’s companions wisely.”

    I’m sure that the author of that text did not envision that the dangerous companions might actually be in the religious hierarchy. He was more concerned with peers, but I think the principle is more widely applicable. “Choose your religious overseers carefully.”

    Perhaps this is part of why many present day churches deprecate the OT concept of ‘wisdom’ in favor of (an IMO flawed) NT conception of ‘faith’. Widespread wisdom among the laity might get in the way of the Agendas.

  54. Wild Honey: we’re called to submit to one another (or one another’s needs) unless it becomes destructive … life-giving instead of life-draining

    I have been in churches where “rigid and stiff” complementarianism was practiced. You could actually see the oppression on the countenance of the women there. There was no “beauty of complementarity” on their faces … they were in a life-draining bondage to a religious system that was not of God.

  55. I have seen churches that are quite insular and cliquish. They might even have the right doctrine but even after attending for a period of time established members are still not one to you. Wouldn’t something like this be a factor in leaving?

    Do pastors like this one not even consider reasons like I pointed out that make members leave?

  56. Samuel Conner: Widespread wisdom among the laity might get in the way of the Agendas.

    The American church is in desperate need of a widespread outbreak of wisdom and understanding in the pew. Much of what is wrong in the organized church could be flushed if the people of God would humble themselves, pray, repent, and seek God’s face. Wisdom would flow; the thrones of men would crumble.

  57. JDV: “Every day, individuals who claim to follow Jesus believe to be opting out of church, when, in fact, as members of the church already, they are simply choosing to be an unloving bride in one way or another. The brother or sister who chooses not to “go to church” on a Sunday is not opting out of the church, but instead opting out of the privilege of gathering together to worship our great God. The Christian who avoids a church community isn’t simply distancing himself from other people; he’s distancing himself from the way Jesus designed his bride to flourish … If we want to leave church at the door, then we have to leave Jesus with it.”

    Written by someone who just doesn’t get it … manipulation, intimidation and domination at its worst. These are last-ditch effort words to control church members by shaming them to submit and conform to illegitimate authority.

    Leaving church does not equal leaving Jesus. There is a great multitude who are done with the counterfeit church, but not done with Jesus. They truly wish that every church was the Body of Christ, where leaders were real-deal … but the truth is they have experienced the contrary and can no longer go where Jesus isn’t present with His authority and influence.

  58. Wild Honey: My husband and I emailed a pastor that we were burnt out and taking a sabbatical … when we followed up that we were still willing to meet and chat but knew for our own sake that we couldn’t return, we were literally shunned.

    What is missing from this? … “You will know them by their love for one another.”

    My family was once shunned by church leaders after opting to leave a New Calvinist church plant which had deceived members on their exact theological leaning. This was at the beginning of the reformed movement when New Calvinism reared its ugly head in our area. Once we found out where they were coming from theologically, we left. We experienced shunning in the community when encountering church leaders. One Christmas season, I was at Walmart and rounded the corner to meet the “pastor” eye-to-eye. He attempted to appear cordial and asked me if I knew where the Christmas-shaped pretzels were. I responded “Do you mean the ones which look like Mark Driscoll?” He appeared stunned and slithered away. The church was dissolved after a few years … I never knew if “pastor” found the pretzels he was looking for.

  59. A thought that may be relevant to the question of “biblical hierarchy”.

    In my experience, church leaders who are pre-occupied with the issue of lay conformity to their expectations have very clear conceptions of ‘authority’ as originating with God, flowing through Jesus to the apostles and then to the apostles’ successors and then down through the ages to present-day church officers.

    This is, in their view, the Divinely-ordained hierarchy that should shape the thinking (and the living) of all present-day believers.

    The odd thing about this is that it tends to neglect a competing conceptualization of hierarchy that is strongly attested in the New Testament.

    For example, in Jesus’ words,

    “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. 26 It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave”

    Paul writes to husbands who, being male, were of higher social status, in the secular hierarchy of the day, than their wives:

    “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her”

    Paul’s ministry was a ministry of self-giving for the sake of the congregations he was founding, and he appealed to his readers to imitate this.

    —–

    This suggests to me that we should discern in God’s intentions for “human relationships within the People of God”, what might be termed a “hierarchy of self-giving”.

    God the Father gives himself to Jesus, the Son (perhaps the means of this self-giving is the Spirit).

    Jesus gives himself for his people, and (perhaps again, through the Spirit) to his people.

    Jesus’ original associates gave themselves for the early churches. Their successors were expected to do the same.

    And this pattern of ‘the powerful giving themselves in the interests of the weak’ is reproduced all the way down into the most fundamental social units.

    —-

    In this hierarchy, the sacrifices flow from the powerful toward the weak.

    It seems to me that the present-day churches that are in the mold of the church movement featured in the OP get this exactly backward. They have taken Jesus’ ‘upside-down kingdom’ and have turned it right-ways up again.

    Perhaps we should rewrite Matthew 20:26, “On second thought, it shall be so among you”. Even if we hesitate to alter the Biblical text, surely we can find ways of exegeting the preferred meaning from it.

  60. Wild Honey: You mean like all the women he calls co-workers and (gasp) apostle in Romans 16 (she said winsomely)?

    They have great skill in minimizing troublesome verses.
    They (verses) don’t mean what you think they mean.

  61. Max: The American church is in desperate need of a widespread outbreak of wisdom and understanding in the pew. Much of what is wrong in the organized church could be flushed if the people of God would humble themselves, pray, repent, and seek God’s face. Wisdom would flow; the thrones of men would crumble.

    There’s no “American church”. There’s no “christianity” for that matter. There’s a multitude of churches and Christianities. The Church in this post would not consider many folks here co-religionists, you wouldn’t be considered “believers”.

    There’s a lot of discussion of whether church is needed. Given recent events, I no longer consider church value added but your mileage may vary.

    With a strong culture of compliance, much of the current church landscape isn’t going to change.

    Unless Jesus shows up in person, I’m not holding my breath that there’s going to be a change of mind.

    Religion in all its forms isn’t going anywhere, we’re going to be stuck with Iron age missives for quite some time.

    So far most “evangelical” activities play to the house. I’m skeptical as to how many new Christians are being made. When I was in church most “conversions” were recycled Christians.

    As the pool of adherents gets smaller, the necessity of keeping the ones you have becomes more intense. This could contribute to covenant culture as well.

    Sounds like even “missions” is getting some pushback.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.mongabay.com/2021/10/brazil-court-emphasizes-ban-on-missionaries-trying-to-contact-isolated-indigenous/amp/

  62. Samuel Conner: It seems to me that the present-day churches that are in the mold of the church movement featured in the OP get this exactly backward. They have taken Jesus’ ‘upside-down kingdom’ and have turned it right-ways up again.

    Good words! Great overall comment!

  63. Jack: I no longer consider church value added

    Agreed. Much of the institutional church bears little resemblance to the Body of Christ called forth in the epistles, the assemblage of true believers with God-called servant leaders.

    Jack: Religion in all its forms isn’t going anywhere

    I hope to live long enough to see religion’s funeral preached. In its current condition, it is spiritually killing folks by the millions.

  64. Max,

    One could add that the reliance on “hierarchy of institutional power/authority” is a “tell” that these entities are not “New Testament” churches, but rather are specialized 21st-century corporations for the production and marketing of religious consumer products and services.

    Here’s an interesting meditation on the future of churches in a world of potential resource scarcity and climate disruption.

    https://www.postost.net/2021/11/societal-collapse-deep-adaptation-agenda-mission

    One doesn’t have to embrace the authors “narrative-historical” approach to the interpretation of the New Testament to share his curiosity and concern about how the churches are going to adapt to future difficulties, should they arise.

    I think that future churches that are “hierarchies of self-giving love” would fare better than ones that are “hierarchies of power and authority”. Of course, it’s not clear how the former could thrive in the face of civilizational upheaval. OTOH, the churches of the early centuries AD Roman Empire, which faced circumstance that at times were very difficult, seem to have done well.

  65. Wild Honey: Yes. Limits are never acknowledged, are they?

    Yes. It’s called ‘feeding the beast’
    And ‘The Beast’ is always hungry
    We are cannon fodder for the kingdom …if we choose to be

  66. Samuel Conner: the churches of the early centuries AD Roman Empire, which faced circumstance that at times were very difficult, seem to have done well

    The Church – the real one – has been its best over the past 2,000 years during times of persecution, famine, war, natural disasters, and other devastation. The counterfeit church never stands that sort of test; indeed, it is revealed for what it is.

  67. I went out and protested a church in the next city over this morning. The lead pastor wrote an article called the Four Causes of Deconstruction. Those are:

    1) Church Hurt
    2) Poor Teaching
    3) Desire to Sin
    4) Street Cred

    And, basically, the only solution he presents is to gut it up and go back to church.

    I wish I was lying. I’m not. For “Church Hurt”, the solution is “grief and lament,” but do it within the church. For “Poor Teaching,” the solution is “good teaching.” For “Desire to Sin,” the solution is “confession and repentance”. For “Street Cred,” the solution is “crucifixion of image.”

    This facile, puerile article absolutely ignored the very real problems people have with the churches today. In my mind, it starts with the way child sexual abuse is handled, how women are treated, how people of color are treated, how LGBTQIA people are treated, how disabled persons are treated, etc. etc. The only solution presented by this guy is to gut it up, get back to church and repent. The church has NOTHING to do. The church is not wrong, WE ARE.

    So I went to Josh Butler’s church, Redemption Tempe, and I protested. He did come out to talk to me (bonus point for him). I was pretty insistent about my points (see above) and really harped on child sexual abuse. I also noted that his church was male elder led and women had no real leadership roles and his church has a “covenant.” (He was confused when I called it a “contract,” but that’s what it is.)

    The thing I did not express, which I just figured out above, is that all the blame is placed on us, the deconstructing, the done, the exvangelicals. The church is great, we just need to conform.

    So I did what I needed to do and he knows that there’s at least one middle-aged woman who will go out and let people know how I feel.

  68. Samuel Conner: the reliance on “hierarchy of institutional power/authority” is a “tell” that these entities are not “New Testament” churches, but rather are specialized 21st-century corporations for the production and marketing of religious consumer products and services.

    … for the financial gain of a few self-described “servant leaders” at the top.

  69. Max: With a little text out of context and cherry-picking passages, a crafty preacher can make the Bible say what he wants it to.

    Max, how many times have we heard, “God said it; I believe it; that settles it!”
    I’ve believe, for quite a while, that preachers who say that to a church are leaving something out, there. IMHO, They should be saying, “God said it; I interpreted it so that I can believe it, and that settles it for everybody!”

  70. Jack: Jesus shows up in person,

    … the Spirit of Jesus shows up as the Holy Spirit of God while the Body of Christ is present with the 9 fruits of the Spirit and the 18 gifts of the Holy Spirit. Church.

  71. Ava Aaronson,

    After awhile Ava, I feel like losing my Christianity for just a few minutes when I’m around obnoxious, arrogant, unloving New Calvinists … so I’ll unlovingly say a few choice words and repent when I get home.

  72. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): “God said it; I interpreted it so that I can believe it, and that settles it for everybody!”

    The New Calvinists, from Piper down, are masters at eisegesis not exegesis.

  73. After we left Sovereign Grace, we determined ourselves to ONLY practice what was in the Bible. Church membership is not in the Bible. I understand why that may seem important to some, but let my yes be yes, and my no be no. Been there almost 12 years now. Spirit filled pastors and staff. I still won’t become a member.

  74. Somewhereintime: Church membership is not in the Bible.

    When someone professes belief in Christ, they become a member of the Body of Christ. No other membership needed in the Kingdom of God.

  75. I believe when we believe and are baptized onto Christ’s Body that we are Members. Period. I consider myself,with all believers to be members of the Church of the first born from Heb 12.
    The New Commandment is sacrificial and gracious. All this other stuff is nuts.Heresy is not just wrong teaching. It is the over emphasis of right teaching. It is what Jesus warned us about in yeast of the Pharisees.He warned us.

  76. A lot of this feels like joining a high school sports team, hatin’ on all the other teams, and heaping scorn on the unathletic dweebs.

  77. Friend:
    A lot of this feels like joining a high school sports team, hatin’ on all the other teams, and heaping scorn on the unathletic dweebs.

    Well, C.J.”Chuckles” Mahaney, Head Apostle of the People of Destiny (and Captain Picard’s evil twin) and his clique ARE heavily into Fantasy Football (AKA “NFL Team Manager: The Role-Playing Game”) and Pious Piper bragged how “we broke someone’s neck in Flag Football”.

    “They have never left High School. They will never leave High School. And they will NEVER let any of the rest of us leave their High School.” Like the bored Mormon housewife who wrote Twilight (and kicked off the whole “Mommy Porn” genre), they want to be the Quarterbacks and Cheerleaders Holding Court at the Kewl Kids’ Table FOREVER.

  78. Samuel Conner: And this pattern of ‘the powerful giving themselves in the interests of the weak’ is reproduced all the way down into the most fundamental social units.

    —-

    In this hierarchy, the sacrifices flow from the powerful toward the weak.

    Was just having a conversation with my husband about this.

    A former pastor of ours threw out the “I’m going to offend people with my preaching because Jesus said people would be offended by the gospel [or “the truth,”‘don’t remember which.” And the pastor always said this in the context of sin and judgment, that people find the concept of judgment offensive.

    I am not so convinced. The ancient world was no stranger to the idea of judgment in the afterlife.

    I think it was more along the lines of what you’ve observed, that the giving up of power was the way to “get right”’with God (for lack of a better phrase).

  79. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: The thing I did not express, which I just figured out above, is that all the blame is placed on us, the deconstructing, the done, the exvangelicals. The church is great, we just need to conform.

    That confession and repentance is a little one sided, isn’t it?

  80. Wild Honey: that the giving up of power was the way to “get right”’with God (for lack of a better phrase).

    Well stated. Surrendering to God is NEVER about handing agency over to another human being. All have sinned and fall short, missing the mark.

  81. Wild Honey: that the giving up of power was the way to “get right”’with God

    Perhaps it’s simply ‘a better way to be human’ or, perhaps, ‘a more faithful (in the sense of ‘accurate’) representation of the likeness of the Creator’.

    Humans are made in the image of God. 1 Jn 4 has an extended riff on the idea that “God is love” and that to “live in love” is to “live in God.” The “inverted hierarchy of self-giving love” is a plausible deduction from these data as well as from explicit NT statements. They’re another link in the chain of inference that perhaps the Spirit is repelled from church environments in which the interpersonal spaces are not characterized by love.

    It might be the case that attempts on the part of leadership to stiffly, rigidly control their congregations actually have the effect of driving the life out of the ‘body’, and repelling the Spirit.

  82. Samuel Conner: It might be the case that attempts on the part of leadership to stiffly, rigidly control their congregations actually have the effect of driving the life out of the ‘body’, and repelling the Spirit.

    One could add that in such groups, the remaining options for ‘getting things done’ out of necessity rely on ‘the arm of the flesh’, and that seems to me to be a valid interpretation of a lot of what we are seeing in these churches.

  83. Ken F (aka Tweed): https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/church-fans/

    From the linked article (Your Church Doesn’t Need More Fans):

    Flock mentality says submit to God’s leading to the church you need. Church is about choice, but it’s about God’s choice to call you into his church—not your choice to pick a church that suits you.

    Cynical rhetorical question: And how does the writer of the article know if a person is following God’s leading to a specific church or if the person picked that church for themself? (….the Lord looketh on the heart. 1 Samuel 16:7 KJV)

  84. sorry to be a pest again, but perhaps there’s an analogy between Paul’s meditation in Romans on the intra-personal struggle between “Spirit/spirit” and “flesh” and intra-“church Body” conflict between the Spirit’s desires and the desires of the human leadership, which certainly can in principle be ‘fleshly’.

    Woe to that congregation whose human ‘headship’ prevails in its struggle with the desires of the Spirit.

  85. Samuel Conner: conflict between the Spirit’s desires and the desires of the human leadership

    The flesh has largely won this battle in the Christian Industrial Complex. There is very little that can be attributed to Holy Spirit activity in most churches in America. Flesh is on the throne in the pulpit supported by flesh in the pew to do church without God.

  86. Samuel Conner: perhaps the Spirit is repelled from church environments in which the interpersonal spaces are not characterized by love

    In the absence of love, the Holy Spirit is grieved and quenched.

  87. Ken F (aka Tweed): https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/church-fans/
    After all these years creating a fan culture, now they are shaming Christians for participating in it.

    Hypocrisy. New Calvinism is a personality cult. It has been built around icons like Piper and energized by gatherings such as the Passion Conference, T4G, TGC where fans flock to idolize their leaders. Attendees return home to develop their own fan culture in local churches, encouraging the pew to elevate them to idol status. When TGC points a finger in this regard, three are pointing back at them. Are they that blind?!

  88. Friend: A lot of this feels like joining a high school sports team

    That’s because a lot of this is run by folks who never matured beyond high school.

  89. researcher: how does the writer of the article know if a person is following God’s leading to a specific church or if the person picked that church for themself?

    Such comments from a church leader serve only the congregation, not the seeker. In the ambitious or manipulative mindset, every church thinks it’s the Best, if not the Only.

    The church is an earthly institution and a house of God. People go for so many reasons, from the coercive to the joyously voluntary. When people are free to choose, they might seek out a familiar tradition—or they might flee that tradition.

    Above all I think people seek comfort and like-minded individuals. That can be great if people band together in love and service. Too much uniformity can prevent people from being challenged. It can also lead to manipulation.

  90. Max: When TGC points a finger in this regard, three are pointing back at them. Are they that blind?!

    YES.
    They’re God’s Speshul Pets, remember.
    They Can Do No Wrong.

  91. d4v1d: In a New Yorker Radio (usually half) Hour segment on Rachel Held Evans, it was noted that self-described evangelicals, as a percentage of the US, has declined from 23% to 15%. The great decommission is what I would call this.

    REMEMBER “THE COMING EVANGELICAL COLLAPSE”?
    WELL, THIS IS IT.

  92. Max: When someone professes belief in Christ, they become a member of the Body of Christ.No other membership needed in the Kingdom of God.

    AMEN! THIS is the cure for the ills of the church–not running from denom to denom or local body to local body. Just this!

    Best sermon I have heard in ages, Max.

  93. researcher: Cynical rhetorical question:

    Cynical rheotorical answer: obviously, the right way to do church is the way I am doing it, not the way you want it done.

  94. Ted: They have to be formal, rigid and stiff in order to brace God’s people from the onslaught of living in a fallen world.

    I think they meant “covenants have to be formal, rigid and stiff because grace and the guiding of the Holy Spirit for each individual believer don’t cut it. And the “world” is terrifying, so you’d better stick with us!”

    Sad. And ripe for exploitation.

  95. CMT: the “world” is terrifying, so you’d better stick with us!

    A last ditch effort to keep folks in the pew.

  96. The very last time I was officially a member of an SBC church was in the early 2000’s. It was run of the mill when I joined it, with a fairly new pastor. He changed horses midstream shall we say, adopting new Calvinism and over road the desires of the people for hymns and went to rock concert styling. Without any business meeting that I heard of on the subject we suddenly were told one Sunday morning that if you wanted to maintain your membership you would sign the new church covenant. In thirty days non signers would find themselves non members. I stayed a couple of more weeks without signing but when the discussion from the pulpit became “You cannot just take a job transfer and leave town. You will have made a covenant with this church and you cannot leave unless the church elders (wait what, what happened to deacons and open meetings??) give you permission.

    NOT. But a few oil field people signed on anyway, and when transferred on to another state just left. Telling no one. I wondered if they were afraid that if the church knew where they were transferred they would hound them.

    I sure would have liked to have gone to a good-by party at church for a young man I knew as a kid in another church in another state. His mama was one of my close friends. So sad.

  97. CMT: And the “world” is terrifying, so you’d better stick with us!”

    Isn’t that the same thing North Korea tells its Population Units/Objects?

  98. linda,

    Countless SBC “traditional” (non-Calvinist) church members have experienced the stealth and deception that you did. Sad, indeed. Payday someday for the new reformers.

  99. Ava Aaronson: the Spirit of Jesus shows up as the Holy Spirit of God while the Body of Christ is present with the 9 fruits of the Spirit and the 18 gifts of the Holy Spirit. Church.

    It’s hard to reply to this statement because of the sincere thought behind it.

    I’m just going to play “devil’s advocate”, if you’ll indulge me.

    This concept was not part of the Christian tradition I grew up in. I had to Google this and even then I got some different answers.

    If the listing I looked at was correct then then some of the gifts are things like humility and mercy which in and of themselves are not uniquely Christian.

    Others like talking in tongues and divine healing are not inherent to all Christian experience.

    If you’ve had a miracle in your life or a charismatic experience, then you are blessed.

    Unfortunately, as written about in this post, that blessing is thin on the ground.

    Most of the world is not so lucky. We don’t get the touch.

    It’s the nature of the human condition, and why good people suffer is something that is difficult to comprehend and accept.

    That being said I’ve seen faithful people undergo illness and loss with the help of their faith – without a miracle.

    Unfortunately in the context of this post, I think only a literal visit from Jesus would have any affect on these Christian strains.

  100. Jack: Unfortunately in the context of this post, I think only a literal visit from Jesus would have any affect on these Christian strains.

    I don’t think that even a for real visit from the for real Jesus of Nazareth would faze them in the least.
    They’d just have their security goons escort him off the property and then get a cease and desist order from the local court(s) banning him from church grounds.

  101. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Well I wouldn’t have gone there but, yeah. Demonizing outsiders seems to be a common ploy of high-control groups. Not saying this church is a “cult,” mind you. But when I hear a Christian organization encouraging adherents to be fearful of the “world,” I start to ask why. Don’t we follow the one who said, “ I have overcome the world?”

  102. CMT: Demonizing outsiders seems to be a common ploy of high-control groups.

    Christianity thrives on paradox. We’re supposed to be in the world but not of the world, and wise as serpents but innocent as doves.

    My high school youth group and college fellowship were high-demand groups. We were taught to be so different from non-Christians that they would hate us and seek to end our lives. Nobody was Christian enough for us (including our parents), and all of these people would want us dead if we were truly good Christians.

    Well, I no longer go through life assuming that my family and neighbors are out to get me. The Bible is full of hyperbole and rich imagery in addition to paradox. God gave us minds for a reason. We are allowed to notice that Christianity comes in many flavors, and to recognize that non-Christians live meaningful lives.

    Our church used to have a huge annual indoor picnic. We bought fried chicken from a Popeyes franchise. The owner, a Muslim man, absolutely loved the opportunity to help a church. I had the privilege of escorting the delivery crew into the church building one Sunday. These young men had never been inside a church. They were a little shy at first, but in an instant everyone was beaming. We all need moments like this, when the fears and assumptions drop away, and we see one another with loving and happy eyes.

  103. Thanks to you and the ongoing work of this blog, we may have dodged a bullet in regards to our own search for a church home. We were wanting something Baptist. With so many churches putting their services up on YouTube, etc. because of COVID restrictions, we were able to check out one of the churches on our short list.
    Whoa nellie! The pastor started the service by thanking one of his “covenant members” for some favor done. Then he issued an invitation for those who might want to become a covenant member, adding “we don’t mind you attending, but if you’re a covenant member, you are saying you want some accountability…”
    To which my wife goes, “exactly what does he mean by that?” to which I replied, “You don’t want to find out and we’re not going to pursue it.”

  104. Lowlandseer:
    Max,

    Mr M shoots himself in the foot in this 2010 article for 9Marks. He says “In recent years, the issue of women serving as pastors has emerged as another second-order issue. Again, a church or denomination either will ordain women to the pastorate, or it will not. ”

    If women pastors is a secondary issue, why does he treat it as a primary one?

    After several years of attending a mainline church that eventually turned into a matriarchy of the pastor, her daughter, and two other women, my wife and I started looking for a new church.
    One of the first non-negotiables was that we didn’t want another woman pastor. Not that either of us had any theological objection, we just wanted a change.
    Let us note here that I am the director of a small local ecumenical mission society. Well, one day I got a call from someone that took the pastorate of one of our supporting churches that wanted me to meet with her regarding our work. We had a good meeting, so I started checking out the services on YouTube. I was blown away by this young woman’s spiritual authority, not one of arrogance or a chip on the shoulder, but one of servant humility. This is a pastor whom I could follow.
    TL; DR: Never say “non-negotiable”…

  105. Very similar story to our recent experience. The Baptist church we were at brought up members vs non-member almost weekly, you begin to feel like a 2nd class Christian.

    Total lack or regard for verses like:

    “Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.”

    I guess the indwelling Christ isn’t good for them.

    We left the church over this, but a good friend stayed who also didn’t buy in to the pressure to become a member.

    I kid you not, the Pastor told him:

    “If you need anything don’t come to me, I am not your pastor.”

    So…only “members” are worthy.

    How backwards can Christianity get?

  106. Scott Brady: pressure to become a member … “If you need anything don’t come to me, I am not your pastor”

    Proof that he’s not a pastor … period.

    There’s a new wave of “lead pastors” in pulpits across America who don’t visit church members in their homes to get to know them, don’t return calls to members in need, don’t go to hospitals to pray for sick folks, don’t go to nursing homes to minister to members in the last chapter of their life, don’t do funerals, etc. But they find plenty of time to tweet their lives away at the coffee shop with their dudebros. There’s a significant percentage of such church leaders in the New Calvinist movement … beware!

  107. Max: There’s a new wave of “lead pastors” in pulpits across America who don’t visit church members in their homes to get to know them, don’t return calls to members in need, don’t go to hospitals to pray for sick folks, don’t go to nursing homes to minister to members in the last chapter of their life, don’t do funerals, etc. But they find plenty of time to tweet their lives away at the coffee shop with their dudebros.

    As was said of one infamous local fanboy who was always telling everybody about all the great novels he was just going to write (but never did):

    “He Doesn’t Want to Write. He Wants to Have Written.”

    i.e. He Wants all the Fame and Glory without actually doing any of the work needed to achieve it.

    “A Celebrity is someone who is Famous entirely for Being Famous.”

  108. Max: Proof that he’s not a pastor … period.

    You’re skirting into the “No True Scotsman” Fallacy, Max.

    Said guys are titled Pastor, identify as Pastors, publicize as Pastors. To everyone inside and outside their church, they are PASTORs.

    Result?
    “Such a shame that 99% of Christians give the others a bad name.”
    — some wit commenting on a YouTube atheist thread

  109. Friend: We were taught to be so different from non-Christians that they would hate us and seek to end our lives. Nobody was Christian enough for us (including our parents), and all of these people would want us dead if we were truly good Christians.

    This is really sad. What a setup for pointless conflict, alienation and self-loathing. I’m glad you found your way out of this.

  110. Friend: My high school youth group and college fellowship were high-demand groups. We were taught to be so different from non-Christians that they would hate us and seek to end our lives. Nobody was Christian enough for us (including our parents), and all of these people would want us dead if we were truly good Christians.

    CULTic isolation plus Martyrdom-Seeking.

    Was this during the 1970s?

    P.S. “Nobody was Christian enough for us (including our parents)” – The Islamic form of that is a major recruiting approach for al-Qaeda and its ilk. However their solution to “people would want us dead” persecution is very different – KILL THEM FIRST.