Alex Himaya – A Visionary

My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you belong?

If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.
-James 2:1-9 (NIV)


Part 2 of a 3 part series.

Senior Pastor Alex Himaya encourages BattleCreek Church members to go “All In” for their latest giving campaign by jumping off a cliff.

A Closer Look at Alex Himaya

The bio below is somewhat dated, but useful. Himaya seems to have shifted away from the theChurch.at, now favoring tcSouth, or tcCairo, etc., the tc standing for “the church.” Also, the church in DuPage, IL apparently is no longer in existence. I cannot find any information about it on BattleCreek Church’s website and individuals I have spoken with who are familiar with BattleCreek know nothing about it.

Additionally, BattleCreek Church now has six campuses in the Tulsa area.

Also note that Himaya reportedly has a doctorate in church growth and evangelism. What I find odd is that nowhere could I find any reference to what institution Himaya earned his doctorate from. This is unusual, as most bio’s list where their doctorate was earned. (See below.)

I placed a call to Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, thinking that since Himaya earned his M.Div there he may have also earned his doctorate there. The Registar verified that Himaya did, in fact, earn his M.Div at SWBTS, but they have no record of him earning a doctorate there.

I was stymied, so I enlisted the help of an anonymous individual who frequently helps Dee and I find factual data that we have been unable to locate. This individual came through for me and said that Himaya had earned his D.Min. at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. His thesis at MBTS is titled: “Providing early ministerial preparation for God-called students at First Baptist Church of Springdale, Arkansas.”

I submitted a request for a copy of Himaya’s thesis through Researchgate. In order to receive a copy of the thesis Alex Himaya has to approve the request. It has been about two weeks since the request was submitted and I have not heard back from Himaya, nor have I received the thesis. It’s my feeling that I will not be receiving Himaya’s thesis anytime soon. I would like to know why Himaya claims his D.Min. is on “Church Growth and Evangelism” when the subject was actually “Providing early ministerial preparation for God-called students at First Baptist Church of Springdale, Arkansas.”

Just speculation, but I would guess Himaya received work-related credit towards his D.Min. for the six years he spent as Youth Pastor at Ronnie Floyd’s church.

Next I will bring to light a possible ethical situation that I would like to hear an explanation for. First watch the video below, than I will explain.

To recap, Alex Himaya said, Find a church “that is not so much interested in how many followers they have on Instagram and what kind of a splash they can make in the world, and how many on-line participants they can have, but how many men and women are coming alongside, making a difference in the city that they belong in.”

Now take a look at this:

Alex Himaya has a “TWICSY” account. What is a TWICSY account? It is an account used to purchase “likes” on Social Media. It makes an individual look like he has more people liking his posts than he actually does. Therefore, if Alex Himaya has purchased non-existent “likes” perhaps you should take him at his word and find a church where the pastor is not so interested in how many followers he has on Instagram.

Next, take a look at this glowing endorsement of Chris Colvin by Alex Himaya:

Colvin basically writes sermons for a living. No preacher wants to admit that, so they routinely say the service provided saves them many hours from doing what a pastor is paid to do -prepare and deliver sermons, freeing them up to play golf disciple his underlings while enjoying the great outdoors.

Unfortunately, Himaya still hasn’t freed up enough time to show up at a memorial service  – a woman recently widowed by the sudden and unexpected death of her husband lamented that fact in a comment she left on Himaya’s Facebook post of golfing at a private country club with his wealthy buddy, Mike Baab. The comment was quickly removed, but not before someone grabbed a screenshot of it!

Wild guess here, but it’s doubtful that Mrs. Young will be participating in the “All In” giving campaign.

Back to Chris Colvin. I don’t believe he is still employed by BattleCreek Church, but at one time he was in their “communications” department. He may have even been a member of the Pastor’s Council, although I have not been able to confirm that. According to the information below, Colvin now lives in Springfield, MO.

Take note of that big orange button on the screenshot below that says “Contact Me!”  Two weeks ago I utilized that button and asked how much Chris charges to write sermons. I have not heard back from Chris. I’m guessing he’s too busy writing sermons for Himaya and his ilk – no time to respond to questions from the rock-throwing peasants such as me. I was hoping I could enlist Colvin’s services to write a blog post or two for me. I’d be willing to pay him $10 per post! I’m sure that wouldn’t impress him, but it’s $10 more than I earn.

Ah, well. I was so hopeful to have “him by my side so I can increase my capacity 10 to 15 hours or even 20 extra hours each week!”  I would have been able to “spend my time doing other important tasks, like leading my team and casting vision.”

Well, he probably wouldn’t meet my standards anyway. Nowhere in his material did I see him mention “gospel centered,” as in “gospel-centered vision casting.” So I doubt he is even a Christian. He surely isn’t a very winsome fella.

Do you know who else utilized and endorsed hiring people to write your sermon? Mark Driscoll and Matt Chandler. Perhaps you remember they used Docent. Check an old post out here if you want to hear Driscoll extol the virtues of paying someone to write your sermons.

A Closer Look at Generis

Generis is a large consultant group that works with pastors. Their motto is “Accelerating Generosity Towards God-Inspired Vision.”

Translated that means they teach pastors how to effectively squeeze every available penny from church members. Of course, Generis advisors would likely cringe at my crass interpretation of their work, preferring to couch what they do in nice religious language.

One of the heavy-lifters at Generis is Julie Bullock. Obviously intelligent and energized, she is highly praised by her colleagues and customers alike. She is a member of Alex Himaya’s BattleCreek Church and a member of Himaya’s Pastor’s Council; she undoubtedly played a major roll in designing BattleCreek’s current “All In” giving campaign.

Below is a short video taken from an introduction to Julie Bullock teaching on giving at the BattleCreek Church on November 4, 2018.

In my previous blog there is a video in which two Generis consultants were teaching on the importance of monitoring church members giving. They suggested a software program which tracks donors giving in great detail. This software can alert church staff of first-time givers, givers that have reduced their amount or frequency of giving, and any number of other things. Church staff will then use this as a “pastoral moment” and get in touch with this member.

Below is a video in which Generis employees Jon Bennett and Brad Leeper emphasize to pastors the importance of monitoring members giving.

One thing I find troubling with Generis is the amount of attention they suggest pastors should give to wealthy church members. In my opinion, Generis disregards the exhortation of James (see the top of this post) to not show favoritism to the rich. Watch the short video below for an example of what I am troubled by.

Again, in my opinion, if you are getting in contact with the member who makes a large donation, yet don’t get in contact with the member who gave all she had, even though it was only 2 coins, are you not operating counter to what Jesus taught?

Jesus sat down near the collection box in the Temple and watched as the crowds dropped in their money. Many rich people put in large amounts. Then a poor widow came and dropped in two small coins. Jesus called his disciples to him and said, “I tell you the truth, this poor widow has given more than all the others who are making contributions. For they gave a tiny part of their surplus, but she, poor as she is, has given everything she had to live on.”
-Mark 12:41-44 (NLT)

Below is a screenshot from Generis’ website. I have edited this, but the full article may be viewed here.

Well, it looks like I need a part three in this series. I have plenty more to share, but this post is long enough. Look for part 3 next week.

 

Comments

Alex Himaya – A Visionary — 163 Comments

  1. drstevej,

    Steve, You are as fast as Muhammad Ali, who once said:

    “I’m so fast that last night I turned off the light switch in my hotel room and was in bed before the room was dark.”

  2. Reading that Generis blog post at the end sure does leave an icky feeling. I feel like I need to take a shower after read it. Very sleazy.

  3. In the late 1990s my husband and I attended a church where the senior pastor REALLY wanted to add an all-purpose building to the church. He had made two attempts to raise the funds for the project, but failed. On his third attempt the church paid tens of thousands of dollars to an outside fund raising consultant. One one Sunday the kids of the church gathered on the altar to explain to the adults why the church needed that all-purpose building. Of course, the kids selected to speak had parents who were prominent members of the church. I walked out of the service b/c it felt so much like a commercial. When the senior pastor called to make sure I was OK after leaving the service early, I told him I didn’t want to sit thru a commercial. My husband was appalled I was so blunt.

    To make a long story short, the pastor got his all-purpose building and we were long gone before ground was broken for it. I never regretted leaving. This blog reminded me of that experience and how I continue to believe these types of fundraising tactics should not be part of the church.

  4. Susan: I continue to believe these types of fundraising tactics should not be part of the church.

    Thanks for the comment, Susan. I agree with you.

    My next installment will highlight the manipulative tactics used by BattleCreek leadership to get people to pledge to “give till it hurts.”

  5. I hope everyone watched all the videos, because it really shows how these guys–leaders of churches and the consultants they bring in to help with giving–operate. It’s not a good look. That one guy despising the $1.34 donated by phone, seriously, what’s up with that?

    Thing is, I know what it’s like to have a non-profit target me as a giver. And they were really good at it, and some good product came out of it. My name is mentioned in the credits on a couple of documentaries. But over the last couple of years my giving has changed and gone away from mostly giving to 501(c)3 non-profits (and DO NOT GET ME WRONG, there are good non-profits) but to people I knew who were having financial issues because of the pandemic because they weren’t working, were on short hours or had gotten sick. I learned that people who need help know exactly what they need, down to the penny and relatively how little money would keep someone in food or in their home. These are the people I have supported of late (even as I continue to give to some organizations).

    Last month, I had a discussion with my brother who joined a local Lutheran church after he met with the pastor and they had a frank discussion about church funding. My brother told me he thought it was important to give to a church right now because they’re *hurting* after the pandemic has changed giving patterns. Again, though, he had a very frank discussion about finances with that church’s pastor.

    But I’ll tell you, I’m hardly likely to donate money to a megachurch, or any church that won’t disclose their financials, especially after watching the videos Todd put up here. Alex Himaya isn’t going to crack the books and show me where the money is going if I give $500, $5,000 or even $50,000. Because I might find out that my $500/$5,000/$50,000 was used as seed money for their “All In” giving program, to pay for the consultant(s), the materials, the videos, etc., etc.

    I’ve seen the sausage being made. I’ve been the sausage…but I knew where the money was going and who was benefiting. That’s not going on here. These videos show a very calculated way of worming into people’s bank accounts without telling them anything except “Look around, this is where your money is going” without any details.

    Again, if you didn’t watch the videos–do it. They’re important.

  6. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    Thanks for your comment, Dee. I really like what you are doing – giving to people in need. I think that is awesome!

    I have heard from a pastor that most of the mega-churches that have “councils” do so to make it easier to hide where the money goes, and a lot of goes to the senior pastor.

    You also raise a good point – what’s Generis’ cut from the “All In” fundraiser? BattleCreek may actually get a discounted rate since Julie Bullock is a member of their church, but it would be great to see one of their 990’s. (Hint, hint!)

  7. Todd Wilhelm,

    Appreciate all of the work you put into this, TW. Excellent research and well-presented. It appears you have the gift of discernment. Blessings to you. Now, back to looking at your presentation here. A lot to see and consider.

  8. ****** “ Are there additional ways besides cash that I can give more towards All In
    Be creative as you explore ways you and your family can give towards All In. You might have some stocks, property, or other items of that nature. Or you may have some stored resources that God has blessed you with in the past that he just might be calling you to give out of during this time. Please let us know if you need assistance with facilitating gifts of property or stock, and we would be happy to help you with that. You can contact the finance team at giving@battlecreekchurch.com or visit battlecreekchurch.com/give for more information about making a gift of this type.” ******

    From the BattleCreek church website “all in” menu.
    There’s more…… https://battlecreekchurch.com/allin/. Scroll down, click on the header arrows and check it out.
    Then run, people. Run!
    (And, nobody’s admitting that BC is SBC…)

  9. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): From the BattleCreek church website “all in” menu

    Did you see in the FAQ someone stating he was in deep debt and wanted to know if he was expected to participate in the All In campaign?

    Any guesses as to their answer?

    I will put in in part 3.

  10. Ava Aaronson: It appears you have the gift of discernment.

    Thanks, Ava. What I have I picked up at the school of hard knocks. I went through a money scandal at a church when I was 20. Many walked away from Christianity. I am afraid the same thing will eventually happen at BC.

    People are still writing about the events I went through at Bethesda in Wenatchee, WA. I will write about my experience there someday.

    Meanwhile, check this out.

    https://medium.com/@DBonny/looking-back-at-bethesda-finding-more-ties-to-grace-city-church-c9ab33b54ae8

  11. Type “Springdale” as keyword, and “Himaya” as author, and then pay $23.40 for the paper

  12. Susan,

    I wonder if the kids were given a script as to what to say.

    My own church put forth plans to remodel our main building and make it more accessible (we have steps leading to the front and one thing they wanted to do was take out the steps.)

    On Sunday, March 8, 2020, we saw a presentation about what they wanted to do and saw mock-ups of what the building would look like.

    On Friday, March 13, 2020, my state went into lockdown due to COVID.

    I will give my church credit for putting that project waaaayyyy on hold for now. We lost a lot of members over the last year and a half for various reasons and the capital just is not there to pursue a project of that magnitude.

  13. “Himaya still hasn’t freed up enough time to show up at a memorial service – a woman recently widowed by the sudden and unexpected death of her husband lamented that …”

    This is very typical of the fast life in mega-mania. Pastors just don’t have enough time to … pastor. They are so crazy busy, they just can’t work it into their schedule to visit orphans and widows in their distress, pray with church members in the hospital and nursing homes, minister to the hurting at memorial services, preach funerals, etc. But you usually find them tweeting their lives away at the nearest coffee shop or hanging out with the dudebros at the golf course.

  14. “spend my time doing other important tasks, like leading my team and casting vision”

    I hope to live long enough to see a new breed of preachers catch the vision that Jesus left for them. It’s called the Great Commission if they want to look it up in their Bibles. Jesus felt that was a very important task they should spend their time on.

  15. This has to be one of best posts I’ve seen explaining the fund raising machine behind the scenes! Well done! You have the groundwork for an expose should you ever want to write it.

  16. “… utilized and endorsed hiring people to write your sermon …”

    Spurgeon obviously didn’t like this style of sermon preparation. He called those who use such gimmicks “dumb dogs” in the pulpit!

    “There are still plenty who hardly know anything about the gospel. They preach about a great many things, but little or nothing about Jesus Christ. They buy their sermons cheaply, and preach them at their ease; they ask God to teach them what to say, and then pull their manuscripts out of their pockets! We have had to mourn, especially in years gone by, that we could look from parish to parish, and find only “dumb dogs” in the pulpits. And some men, who might have spoken with a little earnestness, if they had liked, let the people slumber under them, instead of preaching the Word with true fidelity, remembering that they will have to give account to God at the last. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermon No. 2625)

    https://www.spurgeon.org/resource-library/articles/dumb-dogs-in-the-pulpit-spurgeon-on-borrowed-sermons/

    (It should be noted that Spurgeon printed and sold his sermons, but warned against plagiarizing without properly citing the messages of others)

    God also had some strong things to say about those who borrow sermons:

    “I am against the counterfeit prophets,” says the Lord, “I am descending on them with punishment, these prophets who steal My words from one another, imitating the words of the true prophets” (Jeremiah 23:30 AMP).

  17. Lowlandseer: Interesting post here by RAYSHELL B

    Thanks, Lowlandseer. I need to follow up on this. Here is what Rayshell B wrote:

    “2/10/2020
    1989 was attending church at first Baptist of springdale Arkansas my children were attending their school. It was found out by their school that my husband was molesting my daughter who was 5 at the time. Associate pastor Mark Yoakam was his name said I would be breaking apart a Godly family if I left the marriage. I had gone to visit a therapist he had recommended to me that gave me advise stating that it was my job to protect my babies. I went to speak with Ronnie Floyd about the situation and he totally blew me off. In my opinion these men tried to cover up and protect the molester. I would not trust the leadership of this church. God knows the truth and these people will meet their maker one day.”

  18. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes:

    But I’ll tell you, I’m hardly likely to donate money to a megachurch, . . . .

    No Megachurch will ever get my money.

    Anymore I only give money to folks I personally know and the work they do along with grocery gift cards to the homeless.

  19. “… if you are getting in contact with the member who makes a large donation, yet don’t get in contact with the member who gave all she had, even though it was only 2 coins, are you not operating counter to what Jesus taught?”

    If you do, you don’t know Jesus as you ought. In many churches, wealthy donors get more recognition than Christ. Poor widows giving all they can afford are hardly noticed.

    “Jesus sat down opposite the temple treasury, and began watching how the people were putting money into the treasury. And many rich people were putting in large sums. A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which amount to a mite. Calling His disciples to Him, He said to them, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, this poor widow put in proportionally more than all the contributors to the treasury. For they all contributed from their surplus, but she, from her poverty, put in all she had, all she had to live on.” (Mark 12:41-44 AMP)

  20. First Baptist Springdale is now multi campus Crosschurch. We enjoy visiting them when in the area for the excellent “show” but spend most of our time watching the intricate choreography in place. It is a stage extravaganza, not a worship service in my humble opinion.

    As to Springfield MO: all the churches in our smaller town aspire to be like Springfield. Which means now you pretty much know why we are home churching during the ongoing pandemic with glee. And learning so much we will have painful decisions to make when we go back.

    And no, newsflash, it isn’t just the Calvinistas and evangelicals doing this crud. It is gaining popularity among the liturgicals also.

  21. Afterburne: No Megachurch will ever get my money.

    But they need lots of money – including yours – for big screens, fog machines, and skinny jeans!!

  22. Susan: This blog reminded me of that experience and how I continue to believe these types of fundraising tactics should not be part of the church.

    As I’ve said before … anyone can be a successful mega-pastor if they have a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a bag of gimmicks. (a working knowledge of the Bible is also helpful, but not required since the mega-pew seldom listens to Scripture anyway – they are there for the show)

  23. I can’t hear the name “Battle Creek Church” without thinking breakfast cereal and Crazy Doc Kellogg.

  24. Max: But they need lots of money – including yours – for big screens, fog machines, and skinny jeans!!

    And the Furtick Mansion, and the Private Jet…

  25. Max: This is very typical of the fast life in mega-mania.

    “They knew all the Right People,
    They took all the right Pills,
    They threw Outrageous Parties,
    They paid Heavenly Bills…”
    — Eagles, “Life in the Fast Lane”

  26. Reading this post & watching the videos, I can’t help but contrast this with an experience I had at the end of summer (when we thought covid was just about beaten). I went to a CDSS (Country Dance & Song Society) English Country dance camp in New England for a week (verification of vaccination required, naturally). On the last day of camp there was an auction of various donated things – and the interesting part was that people weren’t really donating for the actual stuff so much. Folks generally came there with a set idea of how much money they had in their budget to donate – so it was either going to get spent at the auction, or just handed to CDSS as a straight donation. So you’d see things going for *much* more than they were actually worth, like a jar of apple butter for $180. If you run a financially transparent non-profit, and you’re doing things that potential donors think you should be doing – then you don’t have to do all this manipulation.

  27. I was on staff at a large church for a while that was a part of the Association of Related Churches. (ARC) The mothership for ARC is Church of the Highlands (COTH)in Birmingham. Our church (and many many others) were taught COTH’s “Legacy” ministry. It was eerily similar to this program. It DEFINITELY led to pastors to targeting the wealthy. So disturbing.

  28. Max: But they need lots of money – including yours

    Personal airplanes.

    Where the Lord guides, He provides, is lost on the Preacher Pickpockets.

    Sadly, the non-pickpocket-preachers do nothing about their dudebro swindlers. Same with all of the preacher pedo predators. No fellow preacher, no seminary prof, takes them on (all their bookwriting and conferencing and preaching goes on – about NOTHING.) It took @RobDownenChron of the Houston Chronicle to put it out there that there are hundreds, thousands, on public record – preachers who sexually violate.

    And here we have Todd Wilhelm, NOT a clergy dudebro, putting a scam out there for all to see in its murky dirty details. Clergy appears USELESS!

    Sexual violation & money scams & power control paradigms are rampant in churches. Who will out this? Not the clergy, obviously.

    Who is exposing that mess in Moscow, Idaho, with all of its tentacles reaching around the world now – not seminary profs, not fellow clergy.

    Who needs church, when it’s a haven for power, sexual violation, & money grabs. AND, fellow churches & leadership in all their glory, bury the truth.

  29. Max,

    Max, I was anxious to get your take. You did NOT disappoint!

    We need to coin a new name for these charlatans. They are NOT pastors. I refuse to call them “pastor”.

  30. Believer:
    Max,

    Max, I was anxious to get your take. You did NOT disappoint!

    We need to coin a new name for these charlatans. They are NOT pastors. I refuse to call them “pastor”.

    Jesus called them “thieves and robbers” “White-washed tombs” “Brood of vipers”

  31. Ava Aaronson,

    Here’s the $64,000 question … Would “Pastor” be in the ministry if there were no mega salary, no mega perks, no mega stage, no mega admiration, no mega accolades … would he be satisfied to serve the Lord and God’s people in obscurity?

    (note, only oldtimers may understand my reference to “$64,000 question”)

  32. Todd Wilhelm:
    Did you see in the FAQ someone stating he was in deep debt and wanted to know if he was expected to participate in the All In campaign?

    Yes. I read that, and the one about having no job currently. I wait for your take on it, but I have no doubt that we agree.

    How much is Himaya “sacrificing”??? Is he giving until it hurts? Is he teaching/leading by example? I would love to see his financial records.
    I wonder if they are giving monthly progress reports on giving…… ooooh, or maybe they have one of those posters with a thermometer on it in the lobby???
    Does anybody know besides the top dawgs?
    I wonder whose sticky fingers have access to that All In general slush fund?

  33. Todd Wilhelm,

    Read the articles at the link.

    The leadership in the photos do not appear to be starving. AAMOF, they could shed a few pounds to improve their health. They need slimming and trimming, not the widow’s two coins or last dollar.

    Paul the Apostle was a tentmaker. Preachers like Piper love to preach Paul’s writing but live a far cry from following his example, Paul’s lifestyle, that is. Not even close.

    “Sowing seed” or give the preacher money so you can experience a windfall from God to pay off your debt is snake oil at its finest. Same with the financial advisors admonition to tithe first then see God bless. Lies to collect from working people. Mafiosos use the same line: pay me right off the top and I’ll protect you. Don’t pay and my henchmen will destroy you, your family, and your business.

  34. Ava Aaronson: Mafiosos use the same line: pay me right off the top and I’ll protect you. Don’t pay and my henchmen will destroy you, your family, and your business.

    Bingo!
    A knee-slapper that’s as true as the distributive property of multiplication.

  35. I just have to say thank you. My first comment on here but I have been reading for about 2 years now. Our church is in the process of looking for a pastor and all of your posts are so helpful! May God bless you and fulfill all your needs. Keep up the good work!

  36. Hi. I’ve been an avid reader for about a year now. Tried commenting for my first time this morning and it doesn’t show up. Did I do something wrong? Thanks.

  37. Reminds me of the old Flip Wilson sketch. The pastor is speaking about making the church grow. The pastor says it is like a baby it first learns how to crawl. The Amen corner says yes let it crawl. Next the baby begins to take small steps. The Amen corner says let it walk pastor. The pastor then says the next phase is the baby needs to run. But in order for the baby and the church to run it needs money. Then the Amen corner says Let in crawl preacher let it crawl.

  38. Ava Aaronson: Mafiosos use the same line: pay me right off the top and I’ll protect you. Don’t pay and my henchmen will destroy you, your family, and your business.

    Except these MenaGAWD have God Himself as their Luca Brasi.
    (Outranks Hexerai and Conjure-Men who just have their conjured Familiar Spirits for Enforcers.)

  39. T W: Hi. I’ve been an avid reader for about a year now. Tried commenting for my first time this morning and it doesn’t show up. Did I do something wrong? Thanks.

    Hi TW, Love the initials!
    You have done nothing wrong. First time commenters are automatically put in moderation.

    (We do this until we can personally greet you and welcome you. Generis taught us this will increase loyal readership.)

    Just kidding about that last paragraph! Thanks for reading and commenting.

  40. J.J.: Our church is in the process of looking for a pastor

    Beware of any recent graduates from Southern Baptist seminaries … there’s an excellent chance that they would be New Calvinist. These young whippersnappers have a history of lying to pastor search committees about their theological persuasion. Of course, if your church leans reformed, already has elder rule governance, and requires all the wimmenfolk to sit down and shut up, the church body would probably be OK with one of the new reformers.

  41. Todd Wilhelm: I hope you find a good pastor, there are still a few out there!

    “few” being the key word … good (= Godly) pastors are a rare & endangered species … the needle in the haystack … a treasure hidden in the field.

  42. Chip: in order for the baby and the church to run it needs money

    The church needs Jesus, but He has little authority and influence in the American church these days. Blessing flows where He is on the throne, no need for money campaigns.

  43. Beware of anyone who calls ‘himself’ a visionary. True visionaries are typically given that title posthumously after their “visions” come to pass. Vision-casting has become a crafty avenue for getting deeper into your pocket, requiring you (and your money) to get behind the vision.

  44. Max: Beware of anyone who calls ‘himself’ a visionary.

    Dollar signs are all they see. I believe that most people who pastor a church with multiple campuses in Bible Belt metropolitan area are more focused on money than souls.

    But, “casting visions”??????? Those words do not make me envision a Christian church pastor. I automatically see a Shaman in a trance.

    And, in my mind, those “churches” with the smoke machines, lights, choreography, etc, are not really churches. They are only theaters……. filled not with the Spirit, but with pretense.

  45. If we need a new term for these fleece the flock types, how about Elmer’s? As in Elmer Gantry?

  46. And the earliest version of this was Dave Ramsey, who back in the day marketed his materials to churches with the promise that as you teach people to pay off their bills they will increase their giving to the church.

  47. It’s more of the same and it seems so obvious- why do people stay at these churches??
    I guess I was a part of something like this once. A big money drive for a new building, ive seen it many times before. I even sat in staff meetings where the senior pastor laid out the plan to make it look like our building project was aimed at benefiting the wider community. We were applying for a lotteries grant (in Australia the lotteries commission gives grants to community projects), which is essentially money made largely from gambling. The ‘church’ (ie. The senior pastor) created several community initiatives (in name only) to plaster on the church website in order to ‘prove’ to lotteries that the money was going to be helping people in the community. It was even admitted that once we get the grant, we can just drop those things as they would have achieved their purpose. I remember the senior pastor almost laughing about the way they were able to fool the lotteries commission. Sure enough, the $750,000 grant is approved. Praise God! What favour! The church celebrates! What people in the pews don’t realise is that we essentially swindled our way to 750k. Those community initiatives were gone. No mention of them. The church has a nice new building (with the financial support of their people also) and every time I drive past all I can think about is the deceit. We got out 3 years ago. Long story. So glad we did.
    This is what happens when people cry ‘give us a king!’ And don’t look to Jesus as their authority.

  48. Al: This is what happens when people cry ‘give us a king!’ And don’t look to Jesus as their authority.

    And everybody shouted AMEN!

    The presence, authority and influence of Jesus is rare to find in the American church, be it mega or mini. People are on the throne in many places, controlled by pretender-pastors, evil-elders, demon-deacons, and/or pew-powermongers.

  49. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): “churches” with the smoke machines, lights, choreography, etc, are not really churches. They are only theaters … filled not with the Spirit, but with pretense …

    … where the Great God Entertainment is on the throne.

  50. T W: Hi. I’ve been an avid reader for about a year now. Tried commenting for my first time this morning and it doesn’t show up. Did I do something wrong? Thanks.

    Welcome aboard! Looks like your initial comment from 11:06 a.m. has posted. I believe that comments from first-time folks get a quick glance, to make sure you aren’t worried about our car warranties expiring and whatnot. 🙂

  51. Todd Wilhelm: You have done nothing wrong. First time commenters are automatically put in moderation.

    I have been in moderation for years. But saying that is against the comment policy here. So I can only say that on other blogs. If Dee sees this it is deleted so no one else knows. Thanks Todd for not doing that to me at your own site when you had it.

  52. Max: The church needs Jesus, but He has little authority and influence in the American church these days. Blessing flows where He is on the throne

    We all need Him. Just because we are mad about what the hypocrites do it does not mean that we are excluded. I wonder where we all will be at the judgment, what our reward will be? I will be looking for everyone here then. I hope everyone ends up in the place for humble people!

  53. Sometimes lurker here.

    I did a little Googling for the Dupage campus. They still have skeleton LinkedIn and Facebook pages. The only real repository of information is the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/theCHURCHatDuPage/videos which contains videos starting from November 2014, and the final video was a year end in review late 2017.

    It appears Wes Holland, current Campus Pastor at the Owasso location, was leading it. Strange how that little “pop up” campus is gone like a vapor and he’s two states away leading a campus in OK. If I had to guess, they stopped trying to do Acts 29 style church planting and put all their efforts into expanding within the same market. They probably ditched the dotcom style ‘theChurch.at’ branding altogether at this time. It’s much easier to send families a couple miles to your new location than it is a couple states.

    And while I know this is a bit off topic for the post and this site, I can’t help but feel for the young singles and families that toiled away week in and week out at that IL location, only to apparently have the mothership close shop on them. The time lapse of their setup gave me mild flashbacks to my own 18 months at a similar multisite plant, for the sake of a similar ~50 attendees. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjMkwhR2XnE Their motto is/was ‘the perfect church for imperfect people’ but it looks far more like it was ‘the perfect church for volunteer burnout.’

  54. Al: This is what happens when people cry ‘give us a king!’

    Lots of kings pickpocketing working persons to fund their dynasties called churches.

    Trending.

  55. Al: why do people stay at these churches??

    Fear.
    Fear that if they don’t toe the line the way they’ve been indoctrinated, they cannot be pleasing to the LORD.
    Fear of hell when they breathe their last for not pleasing the LORD.

  56. Follow up: they re-branded from the thechurch.at/TC to BattleCreek in August 2019. Click here, if you dare, to hear Himaya claim to be ‘pregnant with vision’ https://youtu.be/2sIOfKMEcyI?t=57

    It’s also a rehashing of the myth of the miracle church planter, i.e., “We didn’t know if anyone would come… NOW LOOK AT THESE NUMBERS Y’ALL!!!!”

  57. Muff Potter: Fear.

    True, fear created by false teaching.

    The solution is to read the Bible for oneself. Cut out the middleman; stop listening to him, stop paying/funding him. Our Creator God of the Bible doesn’t need our money.

    Jesus told the rich young man to donate to the poor. Jesus NEVER passed a collection plate.

    The apostles also never passed a collection plate for themselves. (They collected to help poor people, church to church.)

  58. WOW!!! That is quite a bio (at the top) of what Alex Himaya has accomplished, all by his lonesome!
    What a contrast Himaya’s bio is with someone like John Newton; as clearly Himaya did not bother taking lessons from Newton…unless you count Newton’s slave-trader days:
    —————

    At the age of 82, Newton said, “My memory is nearly gone, but I remember two things: that I am a great sinner — and that Christ is a great Savior!”

    John Newton’s tombstone reads: “John Newton, once an infidel and libertine, a servant of slaves in Africa, was, by the rich mercy of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, preserved, restored, pardoned, and appointed to preach the faith he had long labored to destroy!”

    {Source – https://gracegems.org/2013/02/Newton.html}

  59. what kind of ‘training’ produces this kind of ‘gift of gab’ where you can’t tell the ‘Managawd’ from a grifter?

    or it the problem more personal and lies in the integrity of the speaker who self-promotes from fantasies, knowing SOME will ‘check’ up on him, but thinking most of the ‘sheep’ won’t ???

    this is a sad post to read when you think of how vulnerable this man IS to being exposed because of his contempt for the ‘sheep’,
    and yet how truly vulnerable are the ‘sheep’ who fall for the grift without checking credentials and properly vetting the background and character of one who would take on the role of a pastor as an ‘act’ instead of his life’s commitment to Christ?

    How easy it can be to find out the thinking of such men with ‘the gift of gab’ that when examined in the light of ‘the simplicity that is in Christ’ fails the pride test and reveals only an ‘ego’ needing supplemental credentials to shore him up that, when checked, have no basis in reality?

    sooner or later, the sheep learn that it’s the humble ones who serve them for real, not the ‘showmen’, not the ‘entertainers’, not the ones who need more and more $$$ to ‘spread the Word’ in high style so as to ‘impress’ even more sheep

    (?)

  60. Two thoughts:

    presumably the fees for out-sourced sermon-prep are not coming out of the sermon-deliverer’s pocket; they are funded separately on a different line (“pastoral support services”, perhaps, or something like that) in the church budget. Close examination of a documented budget might be able to determine the scale of these expenditures. That’s wishful thinking, I’m sure, but people do have a sense of justice and whistle-blowers arise from time to time. We’ll eventually get some documentary evidence. Had the HBC lawsuit gone to trial, this sort of information might have come to light in discovery.

    I think it’s hard to conceal interesting truths forever.

    The other thought is inspired by the “co-evolutionary dance” between human societies and the diseases that afflict their members. Individual medical therapies, public health measures, and the response of people to the threat environment exert selective pressures on pathogens, which change in response (no agency implied, simply differential reproduction of genetically diverse strains based on relative fitness), and that can lead to changes in the individual and societal response, which back-react on the pathogen, and so on.

    I’ve previously thought of the pressure to adopt the mega-church model as a kind of religious version of the famous “Gresham’s law” that “bad money drives out good.” But that’s a kind of simplistic analogy, as there are basically only two options: “sound money” and “unsound money.” The reality is more like a continuum. Perhaps an alternative and superior analogy would be an “evolutionary arms race” in which organizations compete among themselves for limited resources. I’m guessing that the current practices, which make the megas more appealing to the general church population than traditional forms of gatherings, are not the end point of this process. As these methods become more widespread, it may be necessary to further “innovate” to find new and more effective ways to grab and hold church-goers’ attention.

    In biology, the end result of evolutionary arms races can be bizarre. I expect we can anticipate the same here.

  61. Trying to think about this question from what might be AH’s point of view, I think that one could argue that,

    from the perspective of people who see ‘the pastor’ as the indispensable functional center of a congregation — the laity are important for their financial contributions but in a sense they are simply passive accessories to the pastor’s active ministry; they are the substrate on which he acts, the canvas on which he paints, the clay he expertly molds —

    from that perspective, one could argue that “pre-ministerial preparation” is mission and church planting.

    Just trying to imagine how a claim might make sense from another’s point of view — without embracing or endorsing that point of view.

  62. Samuel Conner,

    To put it another way, granting the premise that ‘it is out of the heart that the mouth speaks’,

    To characterize AH’s DMin thesis as being about ‘church growth and evangelism’ might be revelatory of the person’s understanding of what ‘church growth and evangelism’ are.

    The hypothesis that the laity are considered accessories, and that ‘reproduction of pastors’ is the heart of church growth and evangelism, might square this circle.

  63. Samuel Conner: the laity are important for their financial contributions but in a sense they are simply passive accessories to the pastor’s active ministry; they are the substrate on which he acts, the canvas on which he paints, the clay he expertly molds

    If a pastor is buying sermons from somebody else, then the sermon writer is the builder, painter, and potter.

    If moreover the pastor is buying “likes” on social media, then the disembodied likes are his congregation.

    This is way too meta for me. 🙂

  64. Sorry to be a pest; I’ll get on with the day after this reflection:

    I suspect that there’s some merit to the interpretation of the evidence as implying embrace of the concepts that “the pastor is the functional center of the congregation” and that ” ‘reproduction of pastors’ is the heart of church growth/evangelism.”

    And these views are pretty widespread; it would not be a scandal for a well-known church leader to harbor such views.

    That begs the question, ‘if not that view, what is the alternative?’

    I speculate that it might be better to regard the “love one another relationship” among all members of a congregation, laity and officers, as the functional core.

    If you think that “Jesus and the apostles” were a kind of proto-church, and that the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost completed the transition from “proto-church” to “church”, this proposal may make some sense.

    Jesus had been the functional heart of the apostolic band. He was going to leave and not visibly return, but he would send a substitute – the Spirit — to be among them as he had been among them.

    Perhaps that’s what the functional core of a congregation should be regarded to be – the presence of the Spirit among the group.

    That sounds like a competing answer to the proposal that “the ‘love one another’ relationship is the core,” but I think the two are intimately connected.

    Jesus’ great ‘supper discourse’ in Jn 14-16 has two big themes, “love one another” and “after I depart I will send the Spirit.’ One could regard these two themes to be independent, but I think there’s evidence from later developments in the NT churches that they are closely related.

    In Revelation, in a section of ‘letters to the churches’ that are explicitly characterized as “what the Spirit says to the churches”, the church at Ephesus is warned that because its love is deficient, it is in danger of becoming a ‘not church’ — it’s lampstand would be removed from among the lampstands of the other churches — which I think would imply the departure of the Spirit.

    In Ephesians 4, Paul presents a long list of interpersonal transgressions, warning not to do these things, and concludes with the command to ‘not grieve the Spirit’

    We tend to think of the ‘location’ of the Spirit as being ‘within’ individual believers. We are less cognizant of the possibility that the Spirit may inhabit the relational spaces between believers, analogous to the way that, during the public ministry, Jesus was at the heart of the relational network among the apostles.

    If the relational spaces between believers in a congregation are not characterized by love … perhaps that is grievous to the Spirit.

    This might shed additional light on the prominence of Paul’s “one another” commands that appear throughout his letters to churches. Perhaps these are not optional; perhaps they are indispensable.

    And perhaps that’s why Jesus, in the supper discourse, brings up the Spirit only after camping for a while on the importance that the apostles ‘love one another.’

    ———–

    I’m sure this is a distinctly minority view, but there might be some value in it for present-day churches.

  65. linda: First Baptist Springdale is now multi campus Crosschurch … is a stage extravaganza, not a worship service in my humble opinion.

    Big screens, fog machines, tight jeans … church as entertainment … all flesh, no spirit … stage instead of altar. From the words of an old song “God don’t like it and I don’t either.”

  66. Iwoots: That is quite a bio (at the top) of what Alex Himaya has accomplished, all by his lonesome!

    One is never more perfect than what is written on their resume.

  67. linda: First Baptist Springdale is now multi campus Crosschurch. We enjoy visiting them when in the area for the excellent “show” but spend most of our time watching the intricate choreography in place. It is a stage extravaganza, not a worship service in my humble opinion.

    In the words of the prophets Emerson, Lake, and Palmer:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwSTe9uit48

  68. Friend: I believe that comments from first-time folks get a quick glance, to make sure you aren’t worried about our car warranties expiring and whatnot.

    And to screen for sock puppets.
    Every time a corrupt church or preacher-man got exposed here, this blog used to get flooded with loud and vicious first-time commenters/Defenders Of The Faith.

  69. Muff Potter: Fear.
    Fear that if they don’t toe the line the way they’ve been indoctrinated, they cannot be pleasing to the LORD.
    Fear of hell when they breathe their last for not pleasing the LORD.

    That was true of my time in-country in the Seventies.
    FEAR, FEAR, FEAR, FEAR, FEAR.
    And some of the damage will be permanent.

    Ava Aaronson:

    The solution is to read the Bible for oneself. Cut out the middleman; stop listening to him, stop paying/funding him. Our Creator God of the Bible doesn’t need our money.

    Problem is, you will “read the Bible for yourself” through the screen of FEAR FEAR FEAR. It can take years (if not decades) for this to fade.

    Because “the middleman” has gotten inside your head, and does not come out.

  70. Follow the money. Damn. Reading this post makes me sad, furious, and a bunch of other negative things all at the same time. This place is being run as a money grab by the evidence, rather than a church.

    Jesus wept.

  71. Saying “I’m a visionary” is sorta like C.J. Mahaney self-proclaiming “I’m an apostle.”

    “I give this piece of advice to each one of you. Don’t cherish exaggerated ideas of yourself or your importance, but try to have a sane estimate of your capabilities by the light of the faith that God has given to you all” (Romans 12:3 Phillips)

  72. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): There’s more…… https://battlecreekchurch.com/allin/. Scroll down, click on the header arrows and check it out.

    Thank you for the link, Nancy2(aka Kevlar). I skimmed through the FAQ questions and answers and two stood out for me….and I noticed right after I read the FAQ but before I read Todd Wilhem’s comment (his comment right after your comment) that he briefly mentioned one of the same things that stood out for me.

    The two questions and answers stood out for me so much that I wanted to include them both in their entirety….and my apologies if I’m duplicating someone else’s comment….I haven’t finished reading through all the comments….I was so taken aback by these two questions and answers that I wanted to comment before I finished reading the rest of the comments.

    From the FAQ (link provided by Nancy2(aka Kevlar)):

    What if I don’t have a job right now? What does that mean for my All In commitment?
    All In is about your total, radical, sacrificial generosity to God’s mission at BattleCreek. We believe that God calls us to action in times of hardship just as much as He does in times of abundance, and that looks different for every person. But All In is about a heart change – one that is only accomplished by surrendering our lives completely over to God in this area of giving. So that may mean that you are being challenged to sell things, to pick up odd jobs, or even to trust God in faith by making a commitment that you don’t quite know how to fulfill right now but that you believe God will provide for as you seek for ways to sacrifice and work towards that commitment. We would like for 100% of us to be a part of All In so that we can all be supporting, loving, encouraging, and praying for one another through this spiritually- stretching season at BattleCreek.

    From the FAQ (link provided by Nancy2(aka Kevlar)):

    What if I am severely in debt right now? Am I still supposed to give?
    If you are someone currently seeking to make payments to pay off debt right now, we commend you for making progress on that. And you should continue to do so. We would be happy to help you in this journey and/or to recommend a budgeting class that might minister to you. Being in debt does not, however, make someone “excused” from giving. Giving isn’t about what God wants from you; rather, it’s about what God wants for you. So it should be our joy and privilege to give at all times. Please contact us at….if you need assistance with this or if you would like to speak with a budgeting counselor, and we would be honored to help.

  73. researcher,

    This is very reminiscent of the “tin ear” toward sufferers that I noticed in the wannabe-mega church I attended in the late ’00s.

    There was a building campaign and associated fund-raising emphasis — as the world economy was tipping into recession and financial crisis.

    In one sermon, the pastor addressed a question that had been raised (or maybe it was a ‘straw question’ planted for the sake of congregational edification) — “what if I was down-sized and am getting by on unemployment insurance?”

    The pastoral response to this question was that it was not difficult to participate in the vision even in this situation. All one had to do was to look at one’s unemployment income and ‘move the decimal one place to the left.’

    That is conceptually easy, I suppose. Perhaps this could be considered ‘lifting a finger’ to help people move their heavy burdens.

    I was pretty stunned by the implied indifference to people’s hardship. Perhaps that’s part of pastoral job description for successful “evangelism/church growth” ministries in our day.

  74. researcher,

    Samuel Conner,

    Yep. It looks like some of our so-called “men of God” don’t care if you can’t pay your auto insurance, lose your home and custody of your children ……… as long as you donate generously so they can wear their Armani suits to the coffee shops on the church campuses.
    Arrrrggghhhhh!

  75. researcher: We believe that God calls us to action in times of hardship just as much as He does in times of abundance

    Warning, don’t deny your family the things they need to go “All In” for Pastor Alex’s $50 million goal. In times of hardship, make sure you provide for your family, before you give towards new stuff for the church. As Timothy noted:

    “Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever” (1 Timothy 5:8 NIV)

  76. Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    One of the deep sorrows of what I observed is that the pastor was not a bad or grasping man. He lived in a modest home in a working class neighborhood in an economically depressed part of the state. He was also, IMO, an unusually good preacher.

    I think that the congregation wanted to become a ‘mega’ — not sure why, but perhaps it was envy of large churches in the not distant vicinity. There was an element of “flock comparison” at regional ministerial gatherings. I think he resisted that ‘peer pressure’ for many years.

    An opportunity arose to acquire a large land parcel at a reasonable price, and this was interpreted to be ‘from God’ (the possibility seems to have been missed that it might be a ‘test’ rather than a ‘gift’).

    He changed, his preaching changed (became much more ‘fulfill the vision’ focused), and when the recession and financial crisis prevented the fulfillment of the vision, he was left with a ‘homeless’ congregation (the prior facilities were sold as part of the land purchase funding) meeting in ad hoc circumstances. I think it blighted his career. But maybe that is better than what might have happened had the vision been allowed to succeed.

    Maybe a lot of these superficially ‘successful’ megachurch leaders are actually worse off than him. They were given their hearts’ desires, and it changed them.

  77. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is a place for a healthy fear of God. I hope all murderers, molesters, rapists, etc have a very robust fear of facing God. Same with all us “lesser” sinners. We do need to understand that even if you are believing in a final restoration of all things, God does punish unrepentant sin, and there are consequences even for sin for which we have repented.

    None of us will get to take our pet sin to the hereafter.

  78. Thank you, Todd. There is much to unpack here, but I think it is safe to say that, biblically speaking, Himaya is not, and (currently) should not be, a qualified elder. Elevating one’s “vision casting” above spending time in Scriptures is virtually indistinguishable from worshiping a false idol. “Great is Himaya of the Oklahomans” and all that.

    Regarding Docent, if memory serves me correctly – and, tbh, it does less and less these days – JD Greear was an early promoter and consumer of their services.

  79. Samuel Conner: I was pretty stunned by the implied indifference to people’s hardship.

    Oh, but don’t you know that it’s necessary to put empathy on-hold until you reach the financial target? Don’t pay any attention to individuals when the institution is at stake!

    Jesus came to redeem and work through individuals, not institutions. The institution we call church is OK ‘if’ it is reaching lost folks for Christ, equipping them in the faith, and engaging them in the Great Commission. Anything less than that is doing church without God. The Kingdom of God (on earth in the here and now) is an entirely different enterprise than most of the visible church we see around us.

  80. Samuel Conner: “flock comparison”

    “They who measure themselves by one another and compare themselves with one another are not wise” (2 Corinthians 10:12)

  81. Burwell Stark: Regarding Docent, if memory serves me correctly – and, tbh, it does less and less these days – JD Greear was an early promoter and consumer of their services.

    Oh yeah, he said they made him look good!

    “Docent has been a humongous help to me, saving me literally hours each week and improving the quality of my preaching dramatically. These guys are the real deal. I give them assignments and questions on everything from interpretation to cultural analysis to illustration, and they get me thorough answers, always on time. They are outstanding scholars and really “get” my job as a communicator. I often have people remark to me, “How many hours did you spend on that sermon? Where do you get time to do all that research?” Ha. Thanks, guys for making me look so good!” (J.D. Greear)

    https://web.archive.org/web/20210626030714/https://web.archive.org/web/20120317183037/http://www.docentgroup.com/pastor_stories

  82. A lot of this guy’s lingo brings up some PTSD for me after having listened for many years to Bill Gothard’s drivel and his ‘biblical principles’ concerning money. He always made people feel that no matter what they did, or how much they gave, it was just never enough. I am ashamed and embarrassed that he ever got a dime out of me. He is a snake-oil salesman of the lowest kind. We were always made to feel that we were ‘better Christians’ because we were broke and sacrificing, all the while funding his ‘ministry’. This group doesn’t sound any different. Beware of it!

    Whenever a preacher starts hounding you about money, ask him how much HE gives. That usually ends the topic rather quickly!

  83. BTW–the term “vision-casting” simply puts my teeth on edge. I HATE it! It sounds like something a witch would do.
    In my experience, the people ‘casting visions’ are usually too lazy to do something for themselves, so they tell other people that they ought to be doing it for them!

  84. Headless Unicorn Guy: Problem is, you will “read the Bible for yourself” through the screen of FEAR FEAR FEAR. It can take years (if not decades) for this to fade.

    Because “the middleman” has gotten inside your head, and does not come out.

    Not that I’m saying anything new….and no offense intended to you, Headless Unicorn Guy, by my generalization of your comment…it’s merely something that crossed my mind when I read your comment.

    For many people, the “middleman” can also be plural….the voice of an abuser (or voices of abusers) that get inside a person’s head….sometimes they fade, sometimes they never come out….and what the abuser(s) might use to abuse is a seemingly endless list. Rhetorical question: Is it any surprise that so many people can be easily (and sometimes unknowingly) triggered?

  85. Max: Oh, but don’t you know that it’s necessary to put empathy on-hold until you reach the financial target? Don’t pay any attention to individuals when the institution is at stake!

    If I remember correctly, didn’t someone at The Gospel Coalition (?) write that empathy is a sin? So if a person believes empathy is a sin, and they try to follow that belief, then (theoretically) they won’t need (or have any) empathy to put on hold.

  86. Max: They are outstanding scholars and really “get” my job as a communicator. I often have people remark to me, “How many hours did you spend on that sermon? Where do you get time to do all that research?” Ha. Thanks, guys for making me look so good!

    That’s it! Thank you, Max. I don’t know if Greear was being disarmingly candid, unintentionally ironic, or willfully ignorant, but his above statement says so much about him, his view of the pastorate, and his view of himself. But hey, now the SBC has an unabashed plagiarizer as president, which raises the question: why didn’t Litton just say he was using Docent’s services? Who could have disproven him?

  87. Max: I often have people remark to me, “How many hours did you spend on that sermon? Where do you get time to do all that research?”

    FWIW, Having listened to many of Greear’s sermons – visiting Summit and a in few other places – while I have many questions about what he said after he is finished preaching, these two never rank among them.

  88. Burwell Stark,

    I doubt that many members of Summit remember Greear’s sermons … most have probably forgotten what the point was by the time they get to their car. But they will all say “Man, he can sure preach!”

  89. Max,

    Too true. I remember one sermon, our last time visiting, though: it was on giving (natch) and Greear completely misinterpreted/stretched a Gospel passage (from Mark, I think) to make it about giving. I don’t remember the specific passage now, but I do remember that giving had nothing to do with the context.

    It was a stunning exercise in eisegesis.

  90. Max: Oh, but don’t you know that it’s necessary to put empathy on-hold until you reach the financial target?

    According to either J.D.Rockefeller or Henry Ford, “the financial target” is ALWAYS “just a little more than you got”.

  91. marco: It’s also a rehashing of the myth of the miracle church planter, i.e., “We didn’t know if anyone would come… NOW LOOK AT THESE NUMBERS Y’ALL!!!!”

    You can buy all the NUMBERS you want from Russian hackers.

  92. Max: marco: Himaya claim to be ‘pregnant with vision’

    Reminds me of Mark Driscoll who claimed “I see things”

    And with Deep Throat Driscoll, all the “things” he “sees” were Variations on the same Theme.

  93. Root 66: BTW–the term “vision-casting” simply puts my teeth on edge.

    #metoo
    I also think of sorcery whenever I hear the term. I would like to know how it gained popularity amongst the preaching class.

    A few other over-used phrases that I would be happy to never hear again:

    “on mission”
    “gospel-centered”
    “winsome”

  94. Todd Wilhelm: I would like to know how it gained popularity amongst the preaching class.

    I strongly suspect that it is rooted at least in part in an OT text, Pv 29:18, rendered “where there is no vision, the people perish”.

    I have heard it said that in a capitalist economic system, enterprises that don’t grow will stagnate and eventually fail. Many of these churches are functionally for-profit enterprises and perhaps a similar dynamic is at work, if not as a matter of necessity, then as a matter of mentality.

    I think that the continual pressure to grow, and the excitement that attends growth (“God must be pleased with us!”) might help to distract people from questions like “what have we become?”

  95. Friend: Is there a loophole for unemployed widows and orphans?

    I doubt it….I think that, one way or another, they’ve covered everyone.

    And I did a quick skim through the beginning of the online PDF of their 43 (!!) page All In booklet. When I reached page 16 (titled Giving Journey), I stopped reading. I’m not sure if I was left without words or if the words that crossed through my mind were too “colourful” to be uttered. In reality, what is written on their Giving Journey page in the PDF is, itself, well, I have no adequate words to describe it.

    Giving Journey categories listed on page 16: Initial Giver, Consistent Giver, Priority Giver, Surrendered Giver, and Eternal Giver. (I’m omitting the descriptions to keep my comment short.)

    All-In booklet PDF link (found on the same page as their FAQ): https://thechurchco-production.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/sites/759/2021/09/All-In-Booklet-Digital.pdf

  96. Burwell Stark: It was a stunning exercise in eisegesis.

    He must have ventured off-track a bit from the Docent sermon prepared by “outstanding scholars.” He shouldn’t do that – it’s tough enough following his sermons with him wearing those expensive sneakers on stage.

  97. researcher,

    Those quotes are incredibly offensive. It reminds me of the very, very, EXTREMELY wealthy church formerly known as Mormon, which is sitting on over $100 billion in assets (Wall Street Journal, Feb. 8, 2020, says $100 billion is under management by “Ensign Peak”, so it does not include real property). Yet the members are expected to clean their chapels (and I’ve heard the sanitation is generally not great as a result) and the leadership of the church formerly known as Mormon tells members in poor countries that they should pay tithing first before anything else.

    I used to live in Utah and I live in an area with a significant number of members from the church that used to be called Mormon live, and there are financially stressed people being told to pay 10 percent first and then feed their families. You have NO IDEA how much this infuriates me. And I can’t even see what Alex Himaya plans to do with $50 million, either.

    I refer to “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” as “the church formerly known as Mormon” because the current leader so hates the word “Mormon” he had the name changed and told the members that they “‘offend’ Jesus and please the devil when they use the term ‘Mormon.'” The press has been told to use that long name on first mention and then to use “The Church of Jesus Christ” on second mention. I don’t know that any news outlet has done that except for the ones owned by the church formerly known as Mormon. I believe it’s extraordinarily pretentious to use “The Church of Jesus Christ” as their name, given how many other churches there are; hence my use of “the church formerly known as Mormon.”

  98. researcher,

    Our mob is so old-fashioned. The names of our funds refer to what we are paying to support: missions, foundation, general, music, that sort of thing.

    Why would anybody want to be a Surrendered Giver? All the names strike me as intimate and intrusive.

  99. researcher,

    Per their All In booklet, they want to spend $22 million on the following:

    Our goal is to expand the reach of the Gospel in the
    Middle East and beyond, take CarePortal to the local
    school system
    , and create next-level ministry for those
    with special needs.

    What is CarePortal, you might ask?

    CarePortal
    CarePortal was implemented
    at BattleCreek to help
    vulnerable children, families,
    church members with
    needs. CarePortal provides
    a platform for BattleCreek
    Church families to love their
    neighbors and to share
    the Gospel.

    Now I’m one of those people who has *issues* with churches being in the schools. (It might come from living in Utah, it might come from being seven years old and being told by my 2nd grade teacher I was a pig because I didn’t pray before I started eating lunch. You pick.) “CarePortal” is making my spidey senses tingle and not in a good way. I know school districts are terribly desperate for resources right now, but resources should not come at the expense of vulnerable families being served up on a platter to a megachurch currently shaking down its membership for $50 million. Don’t plan on using our local school systems as recruiting stops for your church. (And I would feel the same about ANY religious organization doing the same!) Just Don’t.

    And on a different subject, since they’re collecting this money over 2 years (right now is the “pledge” stage), how long is it going to take them to consume $50 million on their not very detailed AT ALL projects?

  100. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: CarePortal was implemented
    at BattleCreek to help
    vulnerable children, families,
    church members with
    needs.

    Is this the same church that wants jobless people and those with debts to keep tithing? So… they see the need at church, make it worse, and then show up at public school to address the need?

  101. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Now I’m one of those people who has *issues* with churches being in the schools.

    And rightly so with what you’ve elucidated in your comment.
    But on the other extreme I take issue with those who have a sh*t fit over school kids meeting in an unused room on school grounds for a Bible study.
    Even though Congress has made no law establishing the practice, some folks still get their undies in a dither over it.
    I’d like to read some briefs or hear some oral arguments on how using a room on school grounds establishes a state religion.

  102. Headless Unicorn Guy: Problem is, you will “read the Bible for yourself” through the screen of FEAR FEAR FEAR. It can take years (if not decades) for this to fade.

    Because “the middleman” has gotten inside your head, and does not come out.

    The evil earworm.

    However, I’ve seen where by reading the Bible, entirely, for oneself, the earworm is silenced dead.

    In “Legal Grounds”, I write about this. Like scales falling and the blind see.

    Example: cherrypicking verses to subjugate women. Then read the whole Bible and see Jesus lifts women, the woman judge, women in business, women teachers, etc. No spiritual gifts are gender specific: Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4. The gender stuff churches teach is fabrication, IOW, lies.

    Same with church fund raising for pastors’ projects. They hijack verses. But it’s deception, IOW, lies. JESUS NEVER collected 1€ or 1 shekel.

    The Bible blows the DW JP et al stuff to smithereens. The narcssistic teachers depend on listeners to hang on their every word and NOT read their Bibles.

  103. Friend: The names of our funds refer to what we are paying to support: missions, foundation, general, music, that sort of thing.

    Why would anybody want to be a Surrendered Giver?

    Perhaps your question is rhetorical….

    Possible ideas for why BattleCreek uses the fancy titles like Surrendered Giver, etc.:

    -To make people feel like they are part of some elite crowd (and maybe some people will donate based on where they want to “fit in”).
    -Make it easier for BattleCreek to hide money spent on things like personal jets, fancy houses, etc.

    Personally, I dislike their fancy titles.

  104. researcher: That must have been awful….

    It was embarrassing (it was my first day in the classroom) and it caused me problems with the other kids who worshiped the ground this teacher walked upon. Ultimately, it’s not at the top of my Bad Days list. That spot is reserved for a Friday in August 1974, where, after my mother was taken away in an ambulance, the neighbor lady thought it would be most appropriate to read me Bill Bright’s “Four Spiritual Laws.” There’s a lot more I could say, but I’m going to shut up now.

  105. researcher: Perhaps your question is rhetorical….

    Thank you for your graciousness. My question both was and wasn’t rhetorical, and I appreciate your answers.

    I would imagine that considerable thought went into creating these titles, along with some scripting (“Now Bill here is one of our Initial Givers, but he’s going to be a Consistent Giver soon. Right, Bill?”). The titles do look as though one is supposed to progress from Initial Giver to Eternal Giver—from the broke newlyweds who work extra jobs to the broke oldsters who name the church in their free online will kits. The publication does not show percentages or amounts, but I’m guessing that each has criteria. Here’s the description of “Eternal:”

    “An Eternal Giver is someone who is thinking about the longer tail of generosity rather than just the shorter term of month-to-month generosity or even year-to-year. An Eternal Giver makes decisions in the short term that have longer term effects as it relates to their generosity capacity. They think of what home they buy, what car they purchase, how much savings they choose to keep, all in relation to their generosity capacity. An Eternal Giver is driven by the things of eternity, putting their hope in God and not in the things of this earth.”

    Even more alarming is the Surrendered Giver, who is supposed to give “100% percent” [sic]. Of what?

    The people who wrote this did not openly “consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these” (Matthew 6:28-29). Rather, they imply that Eternal givers can have it all! You can buy a house and a car, and plan for retirement… but go ahead and get a smaller house, a lesser car, and a less secure retirement, so the church can have a slice. Mustn’t get too hung up on appearances!

    Meanwhile, how many in this church cannot afford even a car, let alone a house and retirement fund? Should people trust in God to provide, or do their best in today’s economy? It seems that this church is trying to have it both ways, asking members to ignore their earthly needs while the church claims their earthly earnings.

  106. Friend,

    Cults like Scientology famously showboat a few celebrities (mega incomes) but generally drain the ordinary worker bee dry, right into poverty. Leah Remini and Mike Rinder expose this.

    Dave Ramsey has followers pay off debt, yes, AND live sacrificially to bankroll pastors’ dreams (demands, dynasties), all while also bankrolling Ramsey who is very monied via his “ministry”. Needy orphans & widows? … sign up and pay up, to support these “kings” and their dynasties. Empathy & compassion are sin, says “theology”.

  107. Muslin, I am with you re keeping the church out of the schools. Lived too long in Evanston Wyoming and by the Navajo reservation to want religion in the schools.

    Although if the kids want an afterschool Bible club I think they have that right!

  108. Ava Aaronson: Dave Ramsey has followers … live sacrificially to bankroll pastors’ dreams (demands, dynasties), all while also bankrolling Ramsey

    Ramsey has a symbiotic relationship with church leaders. They have a mutually beneficial relationship, with neither party really that concerned about the Kingdom of God. It’s just business as usual in the Christian Industrial Complex, where hard-earned money from the pew is passed to and fro.

  109. researcher,

    “All-In booklet PDF link (found on the same page as their FAQ):”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++

    well, i read a lot of it. my initial take-away:

    *a number of grammatical errors and odd use of commas
    .
    .
    *The Giving Journey portrays a person as
    not being a disciple of Christ,
    not understanding the preeminence of Christ,
    not understanding the power of the Gospel

    …unless he and she give more and more until it’s all of their money and resources to Battlecreek Church.
    .
    .
    *According to The Giving Journey,

    -the surrendered giver is supposed to “honor God with 100% of their resources”. 100%…?…hmmm…

    -the eternal giver thinks longterm…. well, after being pressured with that 100% figure, reading between the lines, the next step is willing your entire estate to BattleCreek Church, making it your sole beneficiary.

    (of course, they don’t come right out and say it explicitly)
    .
    .

    my word, what a piece of manipulation. brainwashing in print. tricking people to erode their boundaries.

  110. Max: It’s just business as usual in the Christian Industrial Complex, where hard-earned money from the pew is passed to and fro.

    IMHO, money goes directly to Dear Leader’s pockets (×2, preacher & Ramsey) not “to and fro”. Nothing “to and fro” about it.

  111. elastigirl: tricking people to erode their boundaries.

    It also seems to erode the boundary between “God” and “this church”. 100% of the created realm belongs to God, but it doesn’t follow that 100% of my resources belongs to my local congregation.

  112. elastigirl: my word, what a piece of manipulation. brainwashing in print. tricking people to erode their boundaries.

    How about: My word, what a crock of poo-poo!

  113. elastigirl: -the eternal giver thinks longterm…. well, after being pressured with that 100% figure, reading between the lines, the next step is willing your entire estate to BattleCreek Church, making it your sole beneficiary.

    (of course, they don’t come right out and say it explicitly)

    When I read through the BattleCreek All In Giving Journey page, the thought hadn’t even crossed my mind that they might have been aiming to get people to make BattleCreek Church their sole (or any kind of) beneficiary. I’m more familiar universities that use the term Planned Giving.

  114. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Bad Days list. That spot is reserved for a Friday in August 1974, where, after my mother was taken away in an ambulance, the neighbor lady thought it would be most appropriate to read me Bill Bright’s “Four Spiritual Laws.”

    I had to look up Bill Bright’s “Four Spiritual Laws”….I think your neighbour lady could have said something way more appropriate. And I can understand how hearing her read the “Four Spiritual Laws” bumped the day to the top of your Bad Days list.

  115. Friend: The titles do look as though one is supposed to progress from Initial Giver to Eternal Giver

    That thought had crossed my mind when I first read BattleCreek Church’s All In Giving Journey page. 🙂 I hadn’t thought as far ahead as you and elastigirl about people naming BattleCreek Church in their will.

    Friend: Even more alarming is the Surrendered Giver, who is supposed to give “100% percent” [sic]. Of what?

    When I first read the description for the Surrendered Giver, my thought had been that the 100% percent meant everything….that the Surrendered Giver was to pretty much sacrifice everything (up to and including their life).

  116. researcher,

    People in my grandmother’s generation used to name their churches in their wills. They would leave a specific sum, or a small percentage of the estate. (I’m talking about people who scrimped and saved, not wealthy folks.)

    When I found TWW, I read about church takeovers in which new leaders make the oldest members feel uncomfortable. Some churches discipline old members or even excommunicate them. This is just plain horrible, but it also guarantees that the old person will cut the church out of their will.

    Now, it seems, some churches are realizing their error.

  117. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: after my mother was taken away in an ambulance, the neighbor lady thought it would be most appropriate to read me Bill Bright’s “Four Spiritual Laws.”

    When All You Have is a Soul-Saving Hammer…

  118. Friend: Now, it seems, some churches are realizing their error.

    Pastor took over a mega after the founder retired. One year in (honeymoon over), new guy cancels the traditional worship service with all the white hairs. His preferred demographic is “Next Gen”.

    Obvious results.

    All subsequent sermon series have one focus: $$$. Out of necessity.

  119. Friend: Meanwhile, how many in this church cannot afford even a car, let alone a house and retirement fund? Should people trust in God to provide, or do their best in today’s economy? It seems that this church is trying to have it both ways, asking members to ignore their earthly needs while the church claims their earthly earnings.

    Meanwhile Senior Pastor Himaya has a home in the Tulsa area and a second home in Lynchburg, VA. His 2 oldest children stay/stayed there while attending Liberty U.

    Tuition at Liberty U is $21K per year. His oldest daughter just graduated and will be attending University of Texas law school in Austin. Tuition for out-of-state students is $54K per year.

  120. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: megachurch currently shaking down its membership for $50 million.

    There’s Moneyball and Moneychurch.

    The church needs a Billy Beane and Paul DePodesta to value church members and pull together an amazing church community of undervalued but highly valuable church members while not breaking the bank.

  121. researcher,

    re: the various “ranks” of givers.

    I wonder what the ‘end state’ of this would be in a notional community/municipality in which all the citizens were members of the congregation, including all members of the city government.

    Presumably, taxes would be reduced and services cut in order to facilitate more ‘eternal giving’ into the congregational budget. As municipal services shrank, it would be necessary for people to make do out of their own resources or simply tolerate the lower level of services. Those with higher incomes could relocate into gated communities with contracted services to replace the defunded municipal services. The rest would get by in increasingly ‘developing world’ conditions.

    Big government is bad, unless the ‘government’ in view is the government of ‘the local church’. Voters beware.

  122. Todd Wilhelm: Meanwhile Senior Pastor Himaya has a home in the Tulsa area and a second home in Lynchburg, VA. His 2 oldest children stay/stayed there while attending Liberty U.

    Tuition at Liberty U is $21K per year. His oldest daughter just graduated and will be attending University of Texas law school in Austin. Tuition for out-of-state students is $54K per year.

    Actually, that is brilliant! Buy a second home on the money saved from tuition! Then sell it for a profit when the kids graduate!

  123. Samuel Conner: Those with higher incomes could relocate into gated communities with contracted services to replace the defunded municipal services.

    Inclduing GQWD’s Anointed Pastor & Elders.
    Will they only exit their enclave/fortress surrounded by armed bodyguards like Comrade Bob of Zimbabwe?

  124. Friend: Some churches discipline old members or even excommunicate them. This is just plain horrible, but it also guarantees that the old person will cut the church out of their will.

    That’s why you have to preach Anti-Vaxx, Anti-Mask, HydroxychloroQAnon, Medical Freedom, and COVID HOAX.

    To make sure the geezers kick off from COVID before they can change their wills.

  125. Max: Actually, that is brilliant! Buy a second home on the money saved from tuition! Then sell it for a profit when the kids graduate!

    And chalk it all up to “See How The LOOOORD PRovides!”
    God of the Rich and Powerful and no one else.

  126. researcher: I had to look up Bill Bright’s “Four Spiritual Laws”….I think your neighbour lady could have said something way more appropriate.

    But then she wouldn’t be Saving your Soul(TM)!
    Brownie points at the Bema for her Sales Record! A-B-C = Always be Closing!

    (The most charitable interpretation is “Wretched Urgency” – if she didn’t Save Every Soul she comes across 24/7/365, God Will Punish Her. “Work for the Night is Coming” and all that.)

  127. Friend: Is this the same church that wants jobless people and those with debts to keep tithing?

    GOD NEEDS TO BLESS PASTOR WITH A NEW PRIVATE JET!

  128. Headless Unicorn Guy: A-B-C = Always be Closing!

    Given this refers to “Bill Bright’s Four Spiritual Laws”, it was no surprise when I found Bill Bright was originally in sales.

    FYI “Four Spiritual Laws” is the Campus Crusade version of high-Pressure Salvation Sales Pitch. Doesn’t have the graphics of a Jack Chick tract, but same general idea.

  129. Headless Unicorn Guy: And chalk it all up to “See How The LOOOORD PRovides!”
    God of the Rich and Powerful and no one else.

    I would predict that over time, it’s gonna’ be harder and harder for these guys to operate.
    Nowadays, and largely because if the internet, more and more of them are getting exposed for what the are:
    Grifters, plain and simple.

  130. Well, this is certainly eye opening. And has shaken me deeply. This “All In” series made me feel “uncomfortable” all along. I kept getting tinges of “is this spiritual abuse”?

    As a newer believer & new to Tulsa, I began attending BCCC 9/19. I found AH to be an excellent preacher (though I just can’t swallow the evangelical teachings around headship…& though he has not spent much time on the topic since I began there, it’s clear what he teaches.) Learning he buys sermons, etc,…now I question everything he has ever said & the direction of the church.

    I KNOW preachers cannot do everything their congregants want/need from them. I know the needs of the body are overwhelming & preachers need to maximize their time, manage it wisely while staying focused on God above all. It must be an overwhelming task. Still, all the marketing/fundraising consultant fees and now learning “sermon fees”…make my head spin.

    I will say one thing about the Care Portal. My community group is involved in donating to the Portal. We research needs on the Portal, pray and determine which need we can fill, then do so. I have found it to be a strong method of alleviating immediate needs for people/families in harms way; specifically abuse situations.

    I have a lot to think about.

    One question:
    How does one find an authentic Gospel centered church in the Tulsa area…& one who teaches what Jesus showed us; men & women are gifted/empowered with the Holy Spirt?

  131. SAMD,

    Great post. Thank you for sharing. An authentic Gospel centered church will have financial transparency and published accountability, unlike Alex Himaya and Battlecreek. Additionally, a pastor’s lifestyle will be reflected in their Christ first actions unlike Himaya. Did you know that Alex was barred from coaching his son’s flag football team for physical assaulting an opposing elementary school player? Don’t believe it? He apologized from the stage accompanied by acoustic guitar. I bet BC doesn’t have that tape saved. Regarding care portal, it’s a perfect example of Himaya doing less with more.

    BC has also moved all “members” needs to care portal, that is of course, normal members. Have you been to a new member dinner! First thing Himaya says is: “ I don’t do hospitals.” Yet, he does, but only for $$$ members. It helps if you also have a membership at Southern Hills….. I could write a book on this subject….

    Back in the day, my wife was on the prayer team at BC, the team that prayed during the service, amongst other things, they were instructed to pray that Alex wouldn’t say anything stupid during the service. True story. But just like other systems, without financial transparency and accountability, things just got worse and worse. Himaya refuses to make changes. He’ll ignore your emails and block you on social media instead. Additionally, just like the poor widow found out, his staff will take down any post that they think places him in a bad light. BTW, if you go to the BA campus, check out the large teleprompter on the front of the sound booth that he reads those sermons from with some ad lib. Also, stay tune for part 3 of Todd’s series on Himaya, BC, Julie Bullock, and Generis. I bet it’s going to be a banger!!! Share these articles with your community group, maybe if enough people see the truth and hold BC accountability, things can change. However, Himaya LOVES the high life, so I doubt it. All the best

    BA Okie

  132. SAMD,

    Thank you for sharing your experience. I hope Todd’s insights help you to understand your situation and decide how to proceed.

    Most churches are a mixed bag. Even the abusive ones might have good preaching and some beneficial programs. People have their reasons for staying, whether or not a place makes it hard to leave. If you are looking for a new church, I suggest that you peruse websites, watch some sermons online, and be open to different traditions. There is much variety in the Kingdom. TWW has a lot of information on why to avoid membership covenants and complementarian teachings.

    If you don’t mind sharing insights, how do you research needs on the Portal? In abuse situations, attention can put safety at risk. Is the information completely anonymous? (I have seen some prayer lists that are highly anonymous, and others that give full names of adults and children and describe their problems, so that people can “pray specifically.”)

  133. Headless Unicorn Guy: Brownie points at the Bema for her Sales Record! A-B-C = Always be Closing!

    Your comment reminded me of one of Winners newest TV commercials. One of the first lines in the commercial has the executive-type person saying “ABCD – Always Be Closing Deals.” (Winners is a Canadian store chain, not sure if it’s in the U.S.)

  134. SAMD: one find an authentic Gospel centered church

    You’ll have to make your own assessment of the “Gospel-centeredness” of any specific local congregation, though if the congregation is part of a well-known denomination, that would probably give you significant insight into the structure of their beliefs.

    I would recommend, after you have attended a group long enough to know that you don’t want to run away, inquiring about “governance.” Ask to see the by-laws and the book of church order, if there is one. Do the by-laws and BCO indicate the risk of heavy-handed top-down rule, or is the governance ultimately rooted in the “consent of the governed” and is that consent in principle revocable on some reasonable schedule?

    Of course, run away from any group that demands that you execute a legally-binding contract to access the privileges of “membership”.

    ————–

    Here’s an interesting item that from the author’s perspective was not intended to have anything to do with church polity — it’s about ancient history and how we arrived where we are — but I think it is applicable:

    https://archeothoughts.wordpress.com/2019/02/14/archaeology-anarchy-hierarchy-and-the-growth-of-inequality/

    here’s the (IMO) “money quote”, that I think has a lot of relevance to church polity in our day:

    “Anarchy and hierarchy are not fundamentally incompatible, as long as hierarchy is voluntary and participatory. Hierarchy must result from the delegation of power, rather than from its assumption. That delegation must serve a particular, well constrained purpose, and it must be reversible at any time.”

    I think it might be possible to run an assembly of believers who believed in “hierarchy of self-giving love,” rather than “hierarchy of from-above-delegated-authority,” along such principles.

  135. SAMD: Well, this is certainly eye opening. And has shaken me deeply.

    Many of those who comment on TWW have been where you are and were delivered from the mega-mania-mess, personality cults, ungodly movements (e.g., New Calvinism), and other aberrations of faith. They share their experiences here to inform and warn the Body of Christ. When you are still in, you can’t help others out.

  136. researcher: We would be happy to help you in this journey and/or to recommend a budgeting class that might minister to you … contact us at….if you need assistance with this or if you would like to speak with a budgeting counselor, and we would be honored to help.

    We would be self-gratified to interfere in your designer outlet experience with our passionately crafted and curated power imbalance in order to potentise the guilt tripping.

  137. researcher: Your comment reminded me of one of Winners newest TV commercials. One of the first lines in the commercial has the executive-type person saying “ABCD – Always Be Closing Deals.” (Winners is a Canadian store chain, not sure if it’s in the U.S.)

    Don’t think so.
    Definitely not where I am in SoCal.

    Though the “ABCD” is the very definition of high-pressure sales types.