Hubble photo of a dying star called CW Leonis:@EuropeanSpaceAgency/Hubble, NASA, and Toshiya Ueta (University of Denver), Hyosun Kim (KASI)
“The Christian shoemaker does his duty not by putting little crosses on the shoes, but by making good shoes because God is interested in good craftsmanship.” ―
It looks like I first posted about Doug Wilson in 2012. Just as Mark Driscoll and CJ Mahaney, in his day, Wilson is a gift that keeps on giving. Today, I had considered a couple of different posts but they just didn’t interest me. I try very hard not to waste your time. The following article by the Guardian caught my eye.‘Make it a Christian town’: the ultra-conservative church on the rise in Idaho and I was all in.
Wilson has trained his family well. It appears the next generation is now part of his enterprise.
While the church’s previous controversies have centered on its founder and pastor, Douglas Wilson, a new generation of male church leaders – including Wilson’s son – have found ways to expand the church’s reach in Moscow and beyond, even gaining footholds in mainstream popular culture in the broader US.
Wilson has already attracted the undying loyalty of a bunch of The Gospel Coalition dudeboors (Yep-I write it by accident but it made me laugh so I kept it.) Such admiration for this nonsense insures Wilson’s disturbing ideas on slavery (he believes it was a net good) will live on in the Reformed Baptustcand PCA circles.
While the church’s previous controversies have centered on its founder and pastor, Douglas Wilson, a new generation of male church leaders – including Wilson’s son – have found ways to expand the church’s reach in Moscow and beyond, even gaining footholds in mainstream popular culture in the broader US.
His son, ND Wilson has gained some success as a children’s author. He also has had to deal with a brain tumor. As the mother of a daughter who suffered a brain tumor, I wish him a full recovery even if I disagree with his political and theological leanings. From Wikipedia:
Wilson is the son of Calvinist minister Douglas Wilson and author Nancy Wilson. He was named after the biblical figures Nathan and David,[2] and was educated at Logos School.[3]
In sixth grade, Wilson decided that he wanted to become a writer, but he did not do any lengthy fiction writing until some years later.[4] Wilson graduated from New Saint Andrews College in 1999. He studied theology through Liberty University from 1999 to 2000, and he received a master’s degree in liberal arts from St. John’s College in 2001.[5]
During his graduate studies, Wilson began to work seriously toward writing children’s fantasy. Of his first (unpublished) novel, “The Seventh Sneeze,” he would later joke, “The title was the best thing about it.” Wilson abandoned that project and launched a second attempt, which would ultimately become his 100 Cupboards series.[4]
Wilson began teaching at New Saint Andrews College as an adjunct professor in 2001. In 2005, he was named a Fellow of Literature at the college.[5] The same year, Wilson announced in Books & Culture magazine that he had made a near-duplicate of the Shroud of Turin image by exposing dark linen to the sun for ten days under a sheet of glass on which a positive mask had been painted,[6][7] and in doing so, “caused some uproar in the Shroud of Turin world.”[8]
Along with writing and teaching, Wilson currently serves as the managing editor for Credenda/Agenda magazine.[5]
Wilson is married. He and his wife Heather [5] have five children.[9]
In 2017, Wilson underwent surgery to remove a brain tumor.[10]
The Guardian article goes on to outline the many tentacles of Christ Churches which find their center on the ever-controversial leader of Christ Church. He STILL is and will be in control for some time to come, in this writer’s opinion.
…In 2005, Wilson asked a judge for leniency in the case of Stephen Sitler, a former student at a Christ Church-aligned college, New Saint Andrews College (NSAC). Sitler was at that time convicted of sex offenses involving children.
…In the early 2000s, Wilson received criticism over a book, Southern Slavery as it Was, which he had co-written in the previous decade with J Steven Wilkins. Wilkins is a Louisiana pastor who was a co-founder of the neo-Confederate organization, the League of the South. His church is a member of Wilson’s congregational umbrella group, the CREC.
The book depicted slavery in the antebellum southern United States as “a relationship based upon mutual affection and confidence”, and argued that the enslaved enjoyed “a life of plenty, of simple pleasures, of food, clothes, and good medical care”.
…Christ Church’s eventual aim is what Wilson explicitly describes in a 2016 book as “theocracy.”
…Within a network of educational institutions, publishing houses, churches, and national associations that Wilson has founded or led, a small number of men, from a small number of families, have come to exert significant power within the organisation and Moscow.
Not least among these is Wilson’s own family, with him as its head.
…At NSAC, for example, the college president is Wilson’s son-in-law, Ben Merkle. Another son-in-law, Luke Jankovic, sits on the board of trustees, as does Wilson himself and Christ Church’s associate pastor, Toby Sumpter.
Douglas Wilson is also on faculty at NSAC, and is listed as a senior fellow in theology. Also on faculty are his son Nathan (ND) Wilson, a fellow of literature; and his brother, Gordon Wilson, a self-described “young earth creationist” who believes that God created the earth in seven days, is senior fellow of natural history.
It is interesting to note that one elder, Anthony Crapuchette, a church leader, is involved in businesses that tie into Wilsons’ political philosophies. I decided to mention him because I liked his name. His fingers appear to extend into many areas such as job search sites and real estate.
Andrew Crapuchettes has started a new venture, a jobs website called Red Balloon, which advertises itself as connecting “employers who value freedom with employees who value it too”, in “a world beyond cancel culture, where employees are free to work … without fear that they will find themselves on the wrong side of their employer’s politics”.
One local businessman spoke on condition of anonymity. Let me jump in here and say that I have spoken with folks from Moscow (the home of the University of Idaho) and all but one expressed concern that there would be retaliation visited upon them or their business if the *good folks at Christ Church” found out about it.
He added that the church’s anti-mask and anti-vaccination positions, as well as its attempts to “take over local institutions” like a food co-op, had polarized the community.
Doug Wilson attempted a biblical defense of fake vaccine IDs.
This information is what really attracted my attention in this article.
Last month, a video version of a post by Wilson at his well-read blog was removed from YouTube. The blogpost, entitled “A Biblical Defense of Fake Vaccine IDs”, was based on a conspiracy theory asserting that the vaccine response was a “power play” on the part of the Biden administration, which intended to leave the restrictions in place permanently.
I assume the YouTube video was based on Doug Wilson’s blogpost at Blog and Mablog, wrote A Biblical Defense of Fake Vaccine IDs. Here is what Wilson said.
In my evaluation, we are not yet in a hot civil war, with shooting and all, but we are in a cold war/civil war, and nothing is more obvious than the fact that we are in a cold war/civil war. The situation is extremely inflamed, and does not show any indication of improving at all.
…But their problem was that they spooked everybody way too well, and so we just blew by the last escape ramp. It turns out that the panic porn is addictive just like other forms of porn are. Some people need to be scared, and they need to wear masks, and they need to feel all trembly in the knees. So we are now confronted with a very long line of VARIANTS, which will also be as deadly as the FIRST ONE, which is to say, not very.
One quick comment: As of today, @749 million people have died of COVID. We lost 3,000 people on 911 and have lost 2,000 more first responders from related illnesses. We started a war over this which lasted for 20 years. Yet Wilson begrudges the seriousness of 749,000 US deaths? Good night! But, this is a guy who seems to think pedophiles, like Sitler, are not a big deal, in my opinion.
After harping on the unfairness of it all, Wilson goes onto list Seven Principles Regarding Fake IDs
- First, if you are in a position to resist openly, do that. Don’t go straight to the fake documentation. If at all possible, resist openly, in concert with any others in your same position.
- Second, if you are not in a position to resist openly, then feel free before God to resist in this clandestine way.
- Third, the legitimacy of using such IDs is not limited to gospel issues only. …rank the situations where you would be willing to go this route in order of importance, starting with gospel and worship, then your livelihood, then buying groceries, and so on, down to which restaurant you go to on your anniversary. Just go to the restaurant that doesn’t check IDs, and enjoy your date
- Fourth, the ethics of the thing are clear enough, meaning that you can be right with God and use a fake vaccine ID. But that doesn’t mean you should risk going to the federal penitentiary in order to take your family to Disneyland.
- Fifth, if you are a Christian elder or pastor, and you can’t see your way clear to do this kind of thing yourself, at least have the decency not to rat out Christians who do have that liberty in their conscience. In other words, do not even think about requiring vaccine IDs in order to come to church, and do not dare to discipline one of your members who uses fake ID in order to retain his ability to feed his family
- Sixth, don’t be a chump, meaning that you shouldn’t have your cousin draw you a fake ID on the back of a napkin. If you are going to use a fake ID, then don’t settle for less. Use only the best. Use only genuine fake IDs.
- Seventh, imagine yourself telling stories to your great grandchildren. Imagine that this nightmare period is past, and the true nature of “the troubles” has become obvious to all. Behave in such a way now as that you will not be ashamed to talk about it afterwards. If we win this thing, make sure you have some good stories.
Arrrgghhhh! I can’t take it anymore. The comments are interesting or is the word I’m looking for exasperating? Thankfully, there are some good defenses of simple obedience to the government which is born out of others, like my family (and all of yours), who have seen and cared for the awful effects of COVID. Has Wilson seen any men who far healthier him dying of COVID? My family members have. A few weeks ago I spent 12 hours in a local Emergency Department dealing with a stupid medical issue. My little bay was next to the door of the waiting area which was filled to overflowing. Those medical people worked their butts off yet were so pleasant to someone like me who was not really sick.
My tirade is over. Make your own decision. And in case you wonder why all the dudebros love Wilson, take a listen to John Piper…
Lying for Jesus!
I personally know people working on the COVID vaccine, and have served on NIH review panel dealing with COVID detection technology…. But again, I am part of this grand conspiracy, I guess.. I wish it were as exciting as Wilson makes it sound….. errrrrrr
And if your conscious is clear then lying is just fine (head exploding).
His theological reasons are hysterical.
Clandestine …… Ooooh! So lying and behaving illicitly and secretively is Godly now?
Does that apply to women, too?
Andrew Crapuchettes has started a new venture… connecting “employers who value freedom with employees who value it too”, in “a world beyond cancel culture, where employees are free to work … without fear that they will find themselves on the wrong side of their employer’s politics”.
~ ~ ~
[Wilson’s] book depicted slavery in the antebellum southern United States as “a relationship based upon mutual affection and confidence”, and argued that the enslaved enjoyed “a life of plenty, of simple pleasures, of food, clothes, and good medical care”.
~ ~ ~
If this is how Wilson’s church views the position of enslaved people in the antebellum South, I’m not so sure I’d want to be working for an employer a church leader endorses.
Idaho is nut-bag heaven and I for one am glad that the FBI keeps a close watch on the radical enclaves in the region. Wilson has said in so many words that he supports the violent overthrow of our form of Government.
On that basis alone, he has earned himself a place on the FBI’s watch list.
The nonsense Wilson espouses does not rise to any significant level of concern in my mind other than being on the lunatic fringe side of the spectrum.
However, reading “The Hiding Place” might give pause for blanket statements about lying.
There was lying to occupying German forces and stealing from them (food ration cards) in the name of Jesus.
… for power? For position? Anyone with a bully pulpit can create their own reality (noted Adam Schiff at the Commonwealth Club of CA last month). Or anyone with a pulpit; (Jesus exposes bully religious leaders in his “Woe to you Scribes & Pharisees” rant).
Careful about citing a state. There’s AZ, MN, etc., enough to go around. #1 bruhs & fangirls.
Re: lying for position, various Moscow websites trace savvy but unscrupulous moves to assume power, followed by a trail of lies and misdeeds. Read then emerge from the cigar smoke to take a shower.
… the purpose being what?survival? Like Jean Valjean in Les Miserables?
David and his men took bread from the altar but Jesus refused the invitation from satan for bread in the wilderness during his fast.
Bread. Opposite actions, both in support of God’s Kingdom.
David fought & slew Goliath but fled from Saul and refused to slay him. Courageous actions, though opposite.
Context. Purpose.
Religious leaders confronted Jesus with the letter while ignoring the spirit of the law.
Ava Aaronson,
Have you read “The Hiding Place” by Corrie Ten Boom? It was not about survival. It was about hiding and literally saving the lives of many Jews in occupied Holland.
Once she and her family were caught, they were sent to the camps themselves and Corrie endured horrific treatment and saw worse at the hands of the Germans. All while showing the most amazing love.
One of the most challenging and inspiring Christian books ever written.
One thing I love about being a Calvinist in Australia is we just don’t have that Southern baggage and mega-patriotism informing our words and deeds.
We’re certainly not perfect, but we have learned from our mistakes.
For example, have a read from TGC Australia about Covid. It really got up the noses of TGC people in the US:
https://au.thegospelcoalition.org/article/covid-vaccination-and-the-church/
Afterburne,
Been there. The ten Boom home.
Apparently, some of his neighbors don’t feel the same, with their “Examining Doug Wilson in Moscow, Idaho” FB page, which documents lying and law breaking for power on their “A TIMELINE OF CONTROVERSY OF PASTOR DOUG WILSON OF MOSCOW, IDAHO.”
But as you indicate, maybe one person’s bravado is another person’s bravery. So no blanket statements about lying.
How about the child sexual abuse under his watch? No blanket statements? There’s a time and place and explanation for everything? Just a fringe doing its thing for Jesus so no never mind?
(editor: I know nothing about this. Since the comment does not make a direct accusation but I will allow it but be careful here.) Everyone should be looking into why Doug Wilson’s gay neighbor’s skull & jawbone were found in a hunting area. #JusticeForWilHendrick
“If you are going to use a fake ID, then don’t settle for less. Use only the best. Use only genuine fake IDs.”
Bwahahaha. Seriously? Almost as good as “Geniune imitation leather”.
Fisher,
If you are going to put money in the offering plate, use only the best. Use only genuine counterfeit money.
Some of the worst figures in history started out as the lunatic fringe. Doug Wilson unfortunately has quite a bit of influence because he is crafty, unyielding, and attention getting.
Neither you nor I want our country to reach a point where we have to lie to, or about, Doug Wilson’s supporters. And yet look: Locals who fear his power are already commenting anonymously. They know they have a lot to lose.
Where does it stop? How do we stop people like Wilson from building local theocracies that gradually take over a town, a county, a state, and more? Dee is helping, and we all need to do quite a bit more.
One thing we can do is strengthen non-extreme local businesses and institutions, so that people thrive without having to deal with folks like Doug Wilson. Give money or time to your local food bank or domestic violence shelter. Support teachers and health care workers, who are not in fact demons even though they have recently been demonized. Stay calm and cheerful in public. Show love to your family and friends.
“I have spoken with folks from Moscow (the home of the University of Idaho) and all but one expressed concern that there would be retaliation visited upon them or their business if the *good folks at Christ Church” found out about it” (Dee)
That speaks volumes about the control Wilson has over the city, as well as the unChristlike attitude of “the good folks at Christ Church” toward citizens who don’t agree with their belief and practice. Reminds me of Calvin’s lordship over Geneva in his endeavor to make the city a “Christian” utopia … dissenters were shunned, exiled, imprisoned, tortured, executed.
A biblical defense of slavery would seem to open the door to a re-evaluation and future affirmation of polygyny. Both are permitted, with some degree of regulation, in the OT.
Good advice
Jacob,
Bull’s eye.
The real issue here is dominionism:
Dominionism is the theocratic idea that regardless of theological view, means, or timetable, Christians are called by God to exercise dominion over every aspect of society by taking control of political and cultural institutions.
Best idea yet! (for Doug Wilson’s offering plate)
readingalong,
But I am sure that Doug Wilson would bring in the Secret Service and go after who ever put the counterfeit money in HIS offering plate…. Remember, ONLY Doug Wilson can determine when being dishonest is “spiritual”…
You know, I don’t have a problem with that. In fact, that’s righteous. What Doug Wilson is doing is all about self-aggrandizement. And he’s not the only one. Apologia Church is near my house and the pastor, Jeff Durbin, is anti-vaccine. Oh, and at least one family has left Apologia to go to Wilson’s “church.”
Right now, all of this has to be someone else’s problem, because I am exhausted. My evil too big to fail employer is doing a rollout on Monday of a major software package that is replacing a package we’ve used for the 20 years I’ve worked in tech. The newer package is “simpler” but I am not familiar with all the ins and outs, so I’m rather stressed at the moment. Oh, and I’m on call the first two days this software is rolled out and you know stuff is going to break once there are thousands of people actually hammering on the software in new and interesting ways.
So if y’all could keep me in your prayers, I’d appreciate it.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Surely if he can come up with a theological excuse for lying, he can come up with one for women pastors!
Afterburne,
Do you think there was a differenc.e I read the book and once went to a talk by Corrie. To save the life of Jews by hiding them and getting food for them is quite different than refusing to get a vaccine, IMHO. Even Jesus said there was a time to break the Law. He gleaned food to feed his people and even healed on the Sabbath.
I just stopped and prayed for you.I am so sorry. As you know, I’m a technopeasant and anytime I have to learn something new, I freeze. I cannot imagine having to run a huge new program like you must do. Hang in there, friend. I told my husband I wanted to fly out to hang with you and Todd this winter.
Samuel Conner,
He uses the OT arguments to back up his assertions. Surely he knows he’s playing games.
Friend,
Great comment.
You nailed it.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
My “Big U” rolled out a huge HR/fiscal program, right in the middle of COVID shutdown… TOTAL DISASTER…. I can even begin to explain all the “ISSUES”
It would be funny, if the implications were not as horrendous as it is..
Geneva with himself as Calvin, God’s Mouthpiece Upon Earth.
And if he succeeds, after a generation or two living in such a Godly Christian Nation, the name “Jesus Christ” will acquire the exact same baggage as the name “Adolf Hitler”.
P.S. I have the CDC vaxx card. Places and events I’d like to go to will not accept it as proof BECAUSE OF ALL THE COUNTERFEITS FLOODING THE MARKET!
Fake Marks for Tribulation Force: the Live Role-Playing Game.
Because Doug Wilson is Prophet, Priest, and Revelator, God’s Special Pet if not God Incarnate. Sitting in the Holy of Holies and proclaiming himself to be God.
“Remember… It’s not a lie if YOU believe it.”
— famous one-liner from Seinfeld
Both FEATURES, NOT BUGS.
Remember DW’s Hypermsaculinity.
“PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT!”
And a Manly Man of Power feels entitled to any number of women he wants.
Handmaids for the Supreme Commander.
“PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT!”
“PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT!”
After a generation or two living under such a Christian Utopia, the name “Jesus Christ” will acquire the exact same baggage as the name “Adolf Hitler”.
Wilson’s son ND (Nathan) was, to the best of my recollection, fired from one of his first teaching positions at a classical Christian school in Maryland around 2000/2001. For incompetence I believe.
Re PASTOR Doug Wilson:
“Nothing’s worse than a monster who thinks he’s right with God.”
— Captain Mal Reynolds, Free Trader Serenity
No, Captain, there is one thing worse:
A Monster who KNOWS he’s right with God.
Thank you! Rahab the Harlot also comes to mind.
The English Jesuit martyrs disguised themselves as merchants and tradesmen in order to bring the Sacraments to beleaguered Recusant Catholics during Elizabeth’s reign. Was that “lying”?
Also…I am not pro-mask or pro-jab. I hope that’s OK with y’all.
It certainly does not mean that I side with Douglas Wilson in any meaningful way! Au contraire. He’s a bigoted look IMHO.
Heyo, I want to apologize for my statement about ‘ol Mr. Wilson last night. As I re-read my original post this morning, I could not for the life of me figure out what on earth I was even thinking in my first paragraph. His comments about vaccination are not harmless in that they encourage behavior that can ultimately harm others.
I don’t drink, and even though I live in Colorado, I don’t inhale (or get near the stuff). So I can’t use either of those as an explanation. I am as baffled as to what I was trying to communicate as I am baffled by what I actually posted. Using a phone late at night when somewhat sleep deprived is the closest thing I can arrive at which offers any semblance of an explanation, but even that possibility still leaves me baffled.
I do stand by my criticism of blanket statements about lying though. My reference to “The Hiding Place” was an attempt to indicate that it may not always be wrong to lie. It certainly was not my intention to equate the harm that Wilson is doing by his encouraging others to lie for what is a completely bogus reason with the good that Corrie and others were engaged in while enduring the occupation in Holland during WWII.
Again, my apologies.
There is no Biblical defense of slavery when the whole of Scripture is considered. A “Christian” who holds a pro-slavery view does not love as s/he ought. Taking text out of context, living under OT law while ignoring NT commandments, and following leaders who don’t have their hearts screwed in straight doesn’t cut it with God in this regard.
“My tirade is over.” (Dee)
Please, not as long as there are “ministers” in America like Wilson, Piper, Driscoll, etc. etc. etc. We need more tirades from the Body of Christ about these characters … more boldness … more standing in the gap … more pointing the finger in David’s face … or these “deceitful men will go from bad to worse, deluding others and deluding themselves” (2 Timothy 3:13 Phillips).
Unfortunately, it already has for many.
It reminds of of this quote but CS Lewis
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under of robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber barons cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some points be satiated; but those who torment us for their own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
Max,
I would echo Jesus’s words, regarding Moses’ regulation of divorce, that “in the beginning it was not so, but because of the hardness of men’s hearts, God permitted it.” An objective evil that is not normative just because it was tolerated in the OT.
DW extols a bad thing that was IMO in OT times tolerated because of the hardness of the hearts of men.
Jeffrey,
For the life of me I cannot understand the complete irresponsibility of those refusing the COVID vaccine.
The world has had two centuries of solid science in epidemiology and the effectiveness of preventive vaccines.
How did we come to this?
Everything from every day rubes to irresponsible pastors refusing to be vaccinated.
OHHHH, that reminds me, at the same time, a new HR package is being rolled out. I’m not involved in that, but if it breaks, they’ll be coming to us to manage the task(s) of getting it working again. I’d say “thanks for the reminder” but nahhhh.
That said, our senior manager told us at our daily call this morning to be kind to ourselves over the next several weeks because there is a learning curve, we’re being thrown into the deep end, there are going to be issues and we’re not going to get it right. I appreciate him saying that; I’ve crossed swords with him and his demands in the past. He’s calmed down. I’ve calmed down too.
I’m still going to stock up on my favorite comfort foods for next week.
Good. Praying. God bless. Thx for sharing about Hokusai’s work. Fan.
Muff Potter,
I have been told what a “compromising Christian” I am because I think the earth is old and evolutionary science makes sense…. So, I guess I am not surprised that some “Christians” that are hostile to science being against Vaccine, but, the large numbers really baffles me…
It is VERY different, yes.
To turn Jews in for slaughter would have to show support for someone like Hitler.
To OPPOSE the rule of Hitler by trying to save Jewish lives would be to obey the higher law . . . . the Royal Law of Our Lord . . . to help bear one another’s burdens.
Refusal to get vaccinated? Most likely due to mis-information, but sometimes done out of ‘hubris’ or ‘pride’ associated with the support of a certain male political leader whose name we do not mention. By refusing, we endanger ourselves and others and contribute to the chaos that feeds that political leader’s ego. Of COURSE, many people associate refusal to get vaccinated with their ‘freedom’, but most of us realize that this goes way beyond just the one refusing the vaccination and impacts on the at-risk population in the vicinity.
… ” etc. Excellent quote.
As Adam Schiff said recently, we don’t need a despot. No one does.
In the church, same, no need for despots. Jesus is our Savior Who has given us His Holy Spirit as our Guide. We can reasonably each govern ourselves by the grace of God and power of His Holy Spirit. Discipleship never involves a despot.
Church leadership should be administrative at best, all 18 HS given gifts to the church functioning laterally. Under Jesus, no middleman.
The overreach of controlling an entire town “for the Gospel” seems self-defeating, demanding non-Gospel measures. Nothing to do with the Gospel.
Telling that the leadership in this Christian town venture thing glosses over sexual predation but demands control of women (and POC, via the leadership’s blessing of slavery). White male power for a Christian society? Not so much. Another Holocaust in the making, though, perhaps.
Politicizing public health hasn’t helped anything. Combine that with misinformation spreading through religious circles, attitudes that this is an affront to personal liberty, a widespread dearth of common sense, and you have a perfect anti-vax storm. I cringe thinking what would have happened to so many in my generation if we had refused to take the polio vaccine.
Muff Potter,
I think it’s more complex than that.
I think that US public health authorities have damaged the perception of their trustworthiness with at least part of the US public.
The vaccines are not sterilizing (don’t prevent infection — they reduce the severity of infection if one does become infected. That’s a significant benefit but I think the public perception, at least at first, was that the vaccines would prevent infection altogether. They don’t do that and that should have been made very clear from the outset, as a matter of informed consent to receive a not fully tested — by historical standards of vaccine testing — intervention, and also as a matter of conveying the necessity to continue to employ non-pharmaceutical measures to reduce contagion).
The immune response that the vaccines confer does not do much to stop upper respiratory tract viral proliferation, so that vaxxed people can become asyptomatic or low-symptom spreaders. This is also true of people who have developed natural immunity through having recovered from an infection. IMO everyone should mask, with high quality respirators (see note at end), when in the presence of people not in their “COVID pod.”
I think the official position, earlier in the year, that “you don’t need to mask if you get the vax” was a big mistake. Layered defense is best — vax and mask and avoid crowded indoor spaces.
Full disclosure: I was vaxxed back in the Spring, with the Jannsen single-shot. I’ve continued to zealous “distance” since then as I know I am not fully protected from infection and from the possibility of “long COVID”.
FWIW, I’ve found 3M Aura 9205 and 9210 1N95 respirators to be comfortable to wear and not hard to breathe through. They are no longer exhorbitantly priced. I have read that cloth masks and surgical procedure masks are much less effective against the Delta variant than they were against the original “wild type” virus.
Samuel Conner,
One husband is plenty for me, but thank you for the thought.
1 John 2:5-6
“ But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.”
Wilson’s goal is quite obviously to be a despot. He does not walk as Jesus walked —- he doesn’t even pretend to try. He does not “abide in Christ”. He is nothing more than a power hungry heathen, preaching a false gospel.
I hate to keep always coming across as anti-NeoCal … but there sure is a lot of bad apples in that barrel. What is about their flavor of religion that makes their leaders so arrogant, controlling and mean-spirited?
The vaccines have done their jobs so well that few people (in the U.S., at least) have first-hand knowledge of how awful the diseases are that many of the vaccines mitigate.
My grandma lost a little sister (3 years old, I think) to measles. Was talking to one of her friends who grew up near a polio sanitarium; she said vaccines were seen as a God-send in their community.
In my family, their generation and the next all got vaccinated, for everything (even the anti-maskers got the covid vaccine). This is the same side of the family that grew up in Nazi Germany, so believe-you-me, there is a strong distrust of authority figures in all three generations. But my generation is the only one with an anti-vaxer. In her defense, she was on the receiving end of government-sponsored bureaucratic penny-pinching that resulted in medically induced hepatitis (among other things). But her declaration that she “will not live in fear” is not letting her see through her distrust of the government and big pharma, even if what they are wanting her to do this time around might actually be to her benefit.
And I don’t know what the solution is. Because she will literally martyr herself (and probably her child) before giving in, she is that convinced of her righteousness.
Old Max got his COVID booster shot today. I can now do what I always wanted to do, if I could just remember what that was.
Agreed. That was an unfortunate (putting it mildly) mistake.
I remember a recent post regarding Wilson tolerating marital rape. Pardon my sass but if you treat her the way these yahoos do in how they perceive women…no wonder the wives are NOT interested in sex!!!! Seriously!!!! Also there are two sides of the vax issue….look up VAERS website….research young men with heart issues…look around our society and you will see heavily vaxxed areas having high covid rates…folks the vax isnt working as sold!!!!
“I’m used to my bifocals,
Mu dentures work just fine;
I can live with my arthritis,
But I sure do miss my mind.”
Perhaps this has the causality backwards — maybe that personality type gravitates toward that flavor of theology. Maybe it’s a form of ‘self-selection.’
There has been a lot of conflicting and bad messaging, which has made the problem worse. There are also valid concerns about risks and side effects (Norway and Sweden banned the Moderna shot for males born before 1991). And there are odd results that don’t seem to follow the predictions. For example, I live in one of the lowest vaccinated states where case and death rates are plummeting, but they are on the rise in CO with an 80% vaccination rate. That seems backwards. I am not at all an anti-vaxxer, but I can understand why reasonable people don’t want to get the vaccine. Unfortunately, this issue, like so many others, has become highly polorized with little room for anyone to voice a non-extreme opinion without getting chastised by one side or the other. We’ll all be able to armchair quarterback this 20 years from now.
Is it possible that they are trying to emulate their deity?
Headless Unicorn Guy,
A little powder
And a little paint
Make a lady
What she ain’t.
Bait and switch. Bait is discipleship. Switched to despotism.
I tend to agree with Sam on this one.
That flavor of theology attracts those nasty personality types, giving them Divine Sanction to be arrogant and nasty.
Then the whole bunch – both pulpit and pew – are spiritually sick.
I disagree. That demographic was already primed to mistrust.
They were already circling the wagons. QAnon was making inroads by that point. Covid restrictions only worsened the paranoia.
Max,
What kind of personality feels the need to be subjected to that type of “leadership” anyway?
Samuel Conner,
I think that is the issue. A specific type of personality created the theology in the first place. This theology then acts like a magnet to pull others of like mind into its orbit.
I recall something very different, a lively discussion around August/September 2020 about what would constitute acceptable effectiveness. The answer was 50%. When the vaccines were released, they offered much higher levels of effectiveness, up to the mid-90s in percentiles. Researchers are still figuring out how durable immunity is from cases and vaccinations.
As you realize, there’s no such thing as a 100% guarantee in medicine. Some folks, though, seem to relish spending all day yelling, “See? It doesn’t work!” (Personally, I’ve had the initial vaccination and booster, and I still wear a mask and limit outings. My life is different but still productive. I can do this awhile longer to protect myself and others.)
Well, it turns out that the only valid reason to leave a church is if their theology goes bad, and only after one speaks to the pastor to try find unity. This should work well in Wilson’s church for anyone who thinks there could be reason to leave. See this new article from TGC for details:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/leave-your-church/
I think Samuel Conner hit on this when he said in an upstream comment “Maybe it’s a form of ‘self-selection’.” Folks who desire a particular belief & practice seek out those who deliver it … and this can range from good to bad. Charlatans will jump at the opportunity to draw “self-selectors” in by saying “Tell me which way you want to go and I’ll get out in front to lead.” As I’ve noted before, all it takes is a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, a working knowledge of the Bible, and a bag of gimmicks to have a successful ministry in America. Bad-boy-pulpits attract bad-boy-pews because the bad-boy-pew loves to have it so.
“The prophets prophesy falsely, And the priests rule on their own authority; And My people love to have it so! But what will you do when the end comes?” (Jeremiah 5:31 AMP)
Right now, only 58% of the US population is fully vaccinated. Our population is over 333,600,000 people. That leaves about 193,000,000 people without vaccine protection, although some will have immunity after recovering from covid.
As of yesterday, over 750,000 Americans have died of covid.
Covid itself causes far more heart issues than the exceedingly rare vaccine reactions. Covid can lead to permanent damage to the lungs and other organs. Covid is causing the deaths of some pregnant women and babies in the womb.
The VAERS database is just a set of reports of things that happen after a vaccination, regardless of the cause. It takes skilled analysis to determine whether there’s any link between a vaccination and an adverse event. The CDC runs the VAERS database. Here’s what they say about its limitations:
“While very important in monitoring vaccine safety, VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness. The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable. Most reports to VAERS are voluntary, which means they are subject to biases.”
For example, unregenerate men who want their wimmenfolk to sit down, shut up, and submit will seek out an ungodly minister and ministry which preach that.
Aaugh, math challenges today. The 42% unvaccinated is about 140 million Americans.
(At this writing, the pugs are examining the original comment, so maybe this correction will show up first.)
Codependent. They find each other.
Happens in marriage, too. Dateline said recently: It’s not about murder but about sick relationships and the choices ordinary people make, resulting in murder.
In church, there’s that inner circle sitting in the front row and following the pastor around … the sick ones, in codependency with Dear Leader.
The quality of a church is the quality of its healthy relationships (not hierarchy, not building, not programming or performances). Relationships. Nothing more, nothing less.
We could list earmarks and red flags.
-administrative but not value-based hierarchy
-lateral standing of all adults in power and voice
-all eighteen spiritual gifts in equal practice
-nine fruits of the Holy Spirit expected & demonstrated
-care for needy orphans & widows
-what else?
Dealbreakers:
-predation
-misuse of, over collection of, funds
-bullying
-politics
-subversion of any race, gender demographic
-what else?
How women are treated, openly admitted with theology: SBC, DW & kirkdom, JP & DG, MD & his latest dynasty. Dealbreaker.
Politics, sex, and money: Falwell, Graham, and their ilk.
Money: Copeland, Olsteen and their ilk.
Predation: Tullian Tchivijian and his ilk.
They find each other.
Why some of these fringees have a network. Fan girls and bro boys. Readymade.
I can empathize….in the past, I was heavily involved (but not always with the same employer) in implementing and / or upgrading and / or programming software. I’m guessing you’re going to receive a ton of calls….
If I wasn’t having issues with God (and praying to Him), I’d pray for you….the best I can do right now is let you know I empathize.
That. (To what I’ve highlighted in bold.)
I saw a New Calvinist wearing a t-shirt “Jonathan Edwards is my Homeboy” … also popular “Charles Spurgeon is my Homeboy” with a pic of him smoking a cigar.
I suppose faithful followers in Moscow, Idaho wear t-shirts with “Doug Wilson is my Homeboy” with his image smoking a cigar.
Friend,
Since “personal testimony” seems to take priority to sound statistics of large populations to many people these days, I personally know someone with lung damage from COVID AND know plenty of “second hand” stories of young people with long term damage from COVID.
Maybe if I yell enough people will believe my “personal testimony”?? Maybe I should grow a beard, smoke a cigar, and drink whiskey??
The issue I was touching on was “effectiveness at what?”
The 2020 clinical trials (for Pfizer; not sure about the others) measured the clinical end point of severe disease and found excellent efficacy are reducing the frequency of that. I don’t dispute that.
But to actually stop the epidemic, you need to interrupt the chain of transmission, and that requires significant reduction in cases of early milder disease where the virus is proliferating in the upper respiratory tract. This was not tested for in the Pfizer trial (again, not sure about the others). They didn’t test non-symptomatic trial participants to see if they had contracted the virus in spite of the vaccination.
Basically, these vaccines are really useful for reducing likelihood of death from severe cases of COVID. They aren’t great at reducing transmission because they don’t sufficiently reduce all, including mild and asymptomatic, infections — they are not sterilizing.
These vaccines are not going to get us to “herd immunity”, and I suspect that continuing spread won’t do that either, because the protection one gains from recovering from the disease is also not sterilizing.
What we need are vaccines that induce sterilizing mucosal immunity — that prevent viral proliferation in the upper respiratory tract. I have read that these are under development, but won’t be ready until 2022 at the earliest.
My niece lost her maternal grandfather to COVID (a 62 yo man that I’d known for decades…… and, I went to school with his wife.)
Neither the grandfather nor his wife were vaccinated. The wife caught COVID at her workplace, and brought the virus home to him. He was hospitized for three weeks, was intubated for two weeks, and died in a medically induced coma. The coma was induced to stop the pain. The hospital copay is astronomical. His wife will probably have to file bankruptcy, and may very well lose their home and farm.
I believe every American has been impacted by the pandemic … with a family member, friend, neighbor, colleague contracting COVID. It is not a hoax, the vaccine is not a grand design to track you or strip you of your personal freedom, it’s not the mark of the beast … it’s a very real disease, with deadly effects. Mass vaccination is our best chance to beat this thing.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
That is so awful and sad. I’m sorry the family is going through this tragedy and continuing crisis.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
The cost, both real dollars, and “opportunity lost” costs is a huge deal…. No matter how “independent” one thinks they are, we are a VERY interrelated society, that are barring the costs of COVID…
Getting a vaccine, and wearing a mask, is so trivial compared the burden that COVID has, and will continue to place on society….. sigh…
But then, I am just a stooge for left wingers, so you should ignore everything I just said…
The beard will interfere with your mask seal. I suspect that tobacco will not improve the health of your oral mucosa.
Whiskey? Maybe turn it into hand sanitizer.
OTOH, I suspect that reducing the frequency of bathing would promote others’ cooperation with one’s attempts to “socially distance”.
Gallows humor in the sight of the gallows.
The British Medical Journal has just published a study about reduced life expectancy in several dozen prosperous countries, in the year 2020. In the U.S., men lost 2.7 years, and women lost 1.6 years of life expectancy.
“More than 28 million excess years of life were lost in 2020 in 31 [prosperous] countries, with a higher rate in men than women.”
The study is highly technical, and heaven knows I’m not a statistician. Other thoughts welcome, including corrections of my interpretation. Here’s the link: https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj-2021-066768
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
This is terrible.
I’ll add that COVID is the trigger in this case; thousands others will suffer similar misfortunes this year due to other kinds of medical emergencies.
It’s the American way.
These days I’m not proud of my country.
I’ve always pictured Wilson like the old posters in the old Soviet Union, the ones of Comrade Stalin.
I’m still proud of my country.
She’s the best act to ever hit the world stage.
What I have no use for are the idiots who hide behind her skirts and throw toddler tantrums about their ‘American Freedom’ to not get vaccinated.
We now have an animal reservoir for the CV:
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/962218?src=soc_tw_211106_mscpedt_news_mdscp_deer&faf=1
This was probably inevitable when the decision was made in early 2020 to, in effect, tolerate community spread.
—
Muff Potter,
I have the impression that many precarious workers are concerned about vaccine side effects — cannot afford to lose a day’s income if they have an adverse reaction, and cannot afford the medical bills. Of course, they cannot afford to get ill with CV, either, and will be strongly tempted to show up for work even if they feel unwell.
IMO we should be paying people to stay home when they are ill.
US is limping along on the legacy of the greatest generation. Not sure how much longer that will carry us.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Samuel Conner,
Friend,
++++++++++++++++++++
…struggling with a family member over this.
(i’m wondering if life, our relationship, will ever be the same again…
just watched Invasion Of The Body Snatchers – i feel like Donald Sutherland)
BUT, in my quest of putting together arguments and compelling information,
how would you weigh anecdotal data to scientific / statistical data in the pursuit of the truth of a matter?
.
.
(can scientific / statistical be thought of as the same category of information?)
golly, even the question is complex — the truth of a matter… truth in different categories doesn’t always intersect, despite all being valid and true).
.
.
Signed,
Agony Street
elastigirl,
“how would you weigh anecdotal data to scientific / statistical data in the pursuit of the truth of a matter?”
++++++++++++++
(in reference to my comment yet to appear)
for example, descriptions of first-hand experience someone has with covid and vaccine of is anecdotal.
at least, i think so (creative person here, lost in creativity, but trying to sound more scientific)
We have a current extended family member in ICU from covid. She is a rabid anti vax anti mask anti social distancing proponent. Only now she was finally admitted to hospital in a state that is on crisis care. Her kidneys have pretty much failed, and we do not know if that has caused permanent brain damage.
Family faces huge bills and struggles with scheduling, etc, around her needs and her “stuff.”
Her freedom may have bought her death. And took away around a dozen people’s freedom.
The “my body, my choice” argument. Which takes no account of how you affect other people around you; so sad, and misinformed.
elastigirl,
None of the concerns I have raised have been based on anecdotes. You can read the Pfizer 2020 study protocol — prevention of infection is not a clinical outcome that is measured. What is measured is reduction in severe disease, and it was successful (against wild-type virus, the basis of the mRNA sequence. I have the impression that it is still quite good at reducing the incidence of severe disease in more recent strains, though passaging of the virus through a highly vaccinated population would reasonably be expected to select for less susceptible new variants — one of the side-effects of wide distribution of a non-sterilizing vaccine).
I don’t trust anecdata. At the same time, I’m uneasy at the way our public health authorities have handled the results of the studies. The messaging, earlier this year, that you could let down your mask if you were vaxxed, was IMO deeply unwise, and communicated the impression that vaccinated people were not at risk of contracting or spreading the virus, both false. I suspect that the motive was to incentivize people to do something in their self-interest — to get vaxxed — but the consequence is that many people who are vaxxed think that they don’t need to mask when around potentially infectious strangers, and that they themselves are not at risk of being low- or no-symptom spreaders.
We seem to have forgotten the elementary principles of public health, that date back even to before the advent of vaccines.
In my experience (here I am with anecdotal report!), people against the vaccine won’t listen to scientific, statistical arguments, which are the most accurate source of overall information. I’ve tried to pass along to a few people info. like the fact that, in our area, 90% of those in the ICU with COVID are UNvaccinated, still.
But anecdotal experience can be powerful. One of my patients won’t get any vaccines because one of her children died in infancy after a vaccine. Causal? Who knows. But understandable, from her point of view.
Don’t worry. We have their DNA. You can’t ‘teach’ a sense of honor, no. But something ‘happens’ when those we love are threatened by a common enemy and something ‘kicks in’ that is ‘less selfish’ and ‘less self-centered’ than our modern society. It did for the ‘perfect’ ones, but not until Pearl Harbor was attacked, only then did all he11 break out and FINALLY, we faced the monster Hitler. Finally.
Charlottesville was a warning that the monsters are waking up again. And Jan. 6th was a call to arms to PROTECT our Constitution.
Ava Aaronson,
Great comment, Ava Aronson
There have been some studies on the positive correlation between ‘fundamentalism’ and certain personality types, yes.
elastigirl,
Perhaps more directly in answer to your question,
I think that well-designed studies, executed as designed, are what we should rely on.
There is, however, a problem. Google “replication crisis”
So it may need multiple studies by independent groups, including groups that don’t have a financial interest in the outcome, before one can be confident
Friend above mentioned a troubling article recently published in the BMJ.
Here’s another one that touches very close to “home”:
https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635
In the old days, mistakes of this kind would damage careers. I don’t know if there will be consequences to this one.
I guess my attitude is “trust studies that are trustworthy, and try very hard to identify which those are.”
like Gilead in the Handmaid’s Tale? God forbid!!!
“Study Suggests Coronavirus Infections Rampant in Iowa Deer … deer hunters in several states have been warned to take precautions, such as by wearing rubber gloves and a mask when handling white-tailed deer”
Ironic. Some of the most vocal anti-vaxxers-anti-maskers in my area are good ole boy deer hunters! I doubt they will wear masks when field-dressing their deer if authorities advise them to in our State.
I’m afraid a lot of Americans believe the following quote in regard to the COVID “hoax” and statistics … “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”
Fortunately, our ancestors didn’t pull that with smallpox, mumps, measles, whooping cough, polio, etc. etc. … or we wouldn’t be here talking about COVID … they got vaccinated!!
I noted the BMJ article was written by Paul D. Thacker. FWIW, and based on the opinion and writings of someone I trust (and who I don’t always agree with), I would not trust Paul Thacker.
researcher,
What is BMJ?
What is FWIW?
Thank you.
Another family member (extended, not household) related to the first just tested positive. Not very sick, but this person is I believe also unvaxxed, a diabetic with resulting amputation of a limb, anti mask, anti social distancing. Also in a state with crisis level of care. Praying for no complications. Scary.
Passions about covid have been running so high that even the calmer folks among us are believing and saying things that might not be true. I would certainly listen to the personal story of someone I know well, but not second- and third-hand stuff.
Every patient needs to be heard; that’s one way side effects are discovered. However, even the patient doesn’t always know what’s causing their medical problems.
The pandemic is recent, ongoing, and ever changing. If people want to form opinions about vaccines, boosters, masks, indoor dining, remote learning, and all the rest, the only choice is to look at reliable information. Medical school websites (such as Brown and Johns Hopkins) have excellent resources. Twitter accounts by medical experts, such as Ashish K. Jha and Bob Wachter, have good analysis with links to studies and stories.
We are living in such weird times. It’s almost like everybody is supposed to say, “I can’t love you if you believe _________.” Yet people are complicated; they are more than any one issue. I wish this particular topic did not carry health risks to family and community.
Sometimes the best we can do is to protect ourselves, emotionally and in other ways.
christiane,
The Tale is a warning, IMHO.
I appreciate your comments, too.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
I’m not hostile to the vaccine. I am very wary of the long term effects. Both the Pfizer and the Moderna are the first ones made with messenger DNA,and we just don’t know enough.
It also bothers me that boosters are being pushed so soon.
FYI, I’ve had 2 Moderna, but will only get a 3rd if I am told if I don’t I can’t work. (I am a plastics formulator, so remote work doesn’t work).
I will also pass on a trip to Greece if we have to have a negative test to get back into the US. (I don’t have the greatest of confidence in the tests either.)
readingalong,
I read story somewhere about a Doctor that was literally a couple minutes away from administering a vax to a toddler and the toddler, who had no history of such a thing, had a seizure. Had the timing been reversed just a few minutes . . .
Ken F (aka Tweed),
I can overlook a lot of differences of opinion in theology when in a church. Like being an egalitarian yet having only attended complementarian churches for the last 10+ years.
But when a leader establishes a pattern of behavior that causes me to loose trust in them, I’m outta there.
I have a friend who pastors a local SBC church. He wanted to do a trial run of changing the service times, and enough deacons got on board with the idea that they went ahead with it. His wife told me that long-time members were threatening to leave, accusing him of doing this solely for his benefit (which wasn’t accurate). I told her, “If they’ve lost trust in you, it’s probably best to let them go gracefully.”
What pastor is going to want someone around who distrusts them (rightfully or not)?
Looking at things solely through the lens of theology is simply not helpful, for members OR leadership.
Check out the old black and white film version (1956).
In my opinion, it’s a superior production.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
How awful. Praying for the family.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
These stories are so very sad.
May the great Mercy of the Lord be upon them.
YES.
A dear childhood friend is high-risk, and her husband and young son are both immunocompromised. All three have received the vaccine. She just told me her father, who lives 12 hours away and by now hasn’t seen them in nearly 2 years, continues to refuse to either social distance for 10 days prior to a visit or to alternatively wear a mask while they visit. He is furthermore accusing her of keeping his grandson from him.
Oh, and by the way, she has a Ph.D. in genetics and the study of infections diseases is one of her “hobbies,” so she kinda has an idea of what she’s talking about.
My parents and one sibling are in this camp. Up until covid, I thought I had a good relationship with my parents. But after antics surrounding a sister’s wedding this past December that involved outright deception to my face (long story), I was a hairsbreadth away from telling multiple members of the family that I wanted nothing to do with them for a very long time, their relationship with my children be danged [edited to make it past the pugs].
What has helped me preserve my sanity, and at least some shreds of our relationship, is telling myself that they are in a cult. I could very well be wrong, and perhaps I am the one in a cult (they certainly think so, though I’d point out that I’M not the one who LIED to FAMILY).
This old post from Julie Anne has helped provide something of a shield against the guilt-tripping, is what I told my friend. Sometimes, at least. https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/08/02/help-my-family-member-or-close-friend-is-trapped-in-a-high-controlling-church-or-cult-how-can-i-encourage-them-to-leave/
Anyway, that very circuitous story to say that facts and questioning of data are NOT what Julie Anne said got her out, as you have also observed, but that the most important thing to do is keep the bridge of relationship open.
Looking back at the nearly two years we’ve been dealing with this virus, there have been quite a few confident assertions that were overturned as we learned more. Nearly everything we know about this virus and its treatments have changed over time (e.g., masks were uneccessary until they were necessary, travel bans were bad until they were good, lockdowns were bad until they were good until they were bad, mandates were bad until they were good, the vaccines couldn’t be trusted until they couldn’t not be trusted, vaccinated did not need to wear masks until they needed to, etc.). So I will be very surprised if what we know with certainty today about vaccine benefits and risks doesn’t change over the next few months or years as we learn more.
TGC tends to do this – make it all about one issue to the exclusion of other important issues. It’s a form of grooming that weakens discernment.
Thank you for bringing this up. It’s good that you have been vaccinated.
The vaccine does not change DNA. Pfizer and Moderna are mRNA, messenger RNA vaccines (not DNA). Here’s information from the University of Missouri:
“It’s important to know that mRNA doesn’t affect your genes in any way because it never enters the nucleus of cells, where your DNA is kept. After the mRNA does its job, it breaks down and is flushed out of your system within hours. It’s also important to know that although mRNA technology for vaccines is new, the mRNA technology itself isn’t. Therapies using mRNA have been around for years and are currently being used to treat cancer and viral diseases.”
https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/what-you-need-know-about-mrna-covid-19-vaccines
Sounds heartbreaking, as well as maddening! Very sorry to hear about your painful situation.
Theology as grooming for predation. Needs to be explicitly declared.
Jesus exposed the theology as grooming for predation religious leaders in His day. So these theology groomer predators stalked Jesus. Unstoppable Jesus. Then they executed Him. He was still unstoppable. LOL.
Serious stuff, but the theology predators were hilariously defeated. No match for the Son of God.
We make go down for Jesus. However, Jesus is never defeated. For the win.
Wild Honey,
I am spent my life in science/engineering, and last year NIH asked me to chair a review panel on proposals to develop rapid COVID tests… The applicants, and fellow reviewers, were all highly qualified to do the work.
So, in the scientific world I has some level of respect….. So, I am stating, COVID is REAL and doing GREAT damage…. Are all vaccines completely safe?? No, ALL vaccines have a small chance of causing problems…. It is a issue of public health, and trade offs to minimize societal suffering..
Further, ALL drugs and medical treatments involve risk…. My favorite is the FACT that young people treated and “cured” of cancer have a high chance to get cancer from the chemotherapy agents used to kill their first cancer years later…..Chemotherapy drugs are NASTY!! But, it is better to at least out live your first cancer..
In contrast, Since my high schools days, I have off and on been “questioned” ( or worse) with respect to my carrier by “devote, fundamentalist Christians” …. They say I have “sold out/compromised” my faith by “believing in” secular humanist science….. Now I see “non- devote” saying similar things, just that we scientist are now part of a “left wing” conspiracy…. Sigh…. I am just trying to pursue truth… (note, I use a small “t”)
OK, OK … but what about that chip thang tracking my every move?! And the mark of the beast … it causes infertility … masks make you inhale carbon dioxide … all that’s true ain’t it?
Friend,
I agree with what was said about the mRNA vaccine. Human bodies do NOT have the enzyme “reverse transcriptase” which turns RNA into DNA. In fact, there are specific anti-viral drugs which block “reverse transcriptase” which is made by some viruses to “insert” the viral RNA into human DNA.
But again, I am part of the “left wing” or “secular humanist conspiracy, so if you are a devote fundamentalist, you should not listen to anything I say… (I am not joking about this, I have specifically told this..)
BMJ = The BMJ (British Medical Journal)
FWIW = For What It’s Worth
An mRNA vaccine is just a string of code pre-compiled in the machine language of human cells’ mitochondria:
INSTRUCTIONS – CRANK OUT ONE BATCH OF THE FOLLOWING:
[Surface signature of the pathogen; in COVID’s case, the characteristic spike protein of the virus’s outer shell]
END
That one batch floods the body with a one-shot FAKE version of the pathogen, training the immune system to recognize and attack the REAL pathogen should it appear.
But a True Believer can ONLY look at things through the lens of Theology/Ideology.
Nothing exists outside of Theology/Ideology.
Especially when that Theology/Ideology and Reality are completely different and Theology/Ideology must prevail.
Problem is,
“God lives in the Real World.”
— favorite tag line of Eighties talk-show host Rich Buhler
And nothing prevents an abusive Cult (in all but name) having Correct Theology. This was a big problem with the Christian Cult-Watch groups of the 1970s (my time in-country, getting abused by a Not-a-Cult). The Christianese Cult-Sniffers defined Cult ONLY in terms of aberrant Theology, NOT aberrant/abusive Behavior. So a LOT of Not-a-Cults (like the one which messed me up) flew right under their radar because their Theology was Correct. (Really helped that their Theology was the same as the Cult-Sniffers: Rapture Ready Jack Chick Fundagelicalism.) AND THEY WOULD USE THAT THEOLOGICAL VACCINE PASSPORT AS A FURTHER WEAPON TO ABUSE THEIR PEOPLE.
“Just like justifying abortion, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
Tip: “Just like Fill-in-the-Blank, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!” is NEVER a good sign.
And should have learned to stay far far away from Christians(TM).
I was STEM long before the term STEM was coined, and speak from experience.
Not only TRVE, these days it’s become a Litmus Test of Salvation.
More likely Bowler hats, Brollies, and Veddy Veddy Faux-British accents.
With Haggis and Scotch for Communion.
Never mind The Matrix, we’re all living in a South Park episode.
A Righteous enough Cause justifies any evil/atrocity whatsoever to bring it about.
Examples: Two Centuries of Revolutions from Paris to Phnom Penh.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Yup…
I think of many, many more… both “secular and “religious”
Ken F (aka Tweed),
You might be surprised about how “little” we know about allot of medical science….. I know I am, and the more I understand, I feel the less I really “know”….
I couple of years ago I had my Prostate cut out, because of “low level” cancer…. Because of my knowledge, and role in our UniversitiesComprehensive Cancer Center, my doc’s gave me all the information they could, and test results, and let me decide which treatment path to undertake. Despite being a VERY common cancer, with a TREMENDOUS amount of research being conducted by VERY SMART people ( some of which I am fortunate to have met/know), the lack of deep understanding is shocking to me…. Nevertheless, I got it treated…. I saw my grandfather die of metastatic prostate cancer, not pretty…. and he was a stubborn, old guy that prided himself on seeing doctors…. And died a NASTY death……
Jeffrey Chalmers,
Opps
Old guy that prided himself on NOT seeing doctors!
readingalong,
Thank you, readingalong.
I am more surprised by people who think the science is settled. For all the hope in the various vaccines, the reports are pretty disappointing: immunity appears to wane after only a few months, it looks like multiple boosters could be necessary (while the makers of the vaccines are reaping record profits), breakthrough cases are rising, the vaccinated appear to transmit the virus almost as well as the non-vaccinated, vaccination does not remove the need for masking (humans are not designed to wear masks forever), there are more and more reports of vaccination side effects (Norway and Sweden banned the Moderna vaccine for males born after 1991 due to the risk of serious complications), and the list keeps growing. With the benefits appearing to be much less than advertised, short term risks getting more attention, and the long term risks still unknown, it’s becoming less unreasonable not to want to get the vaccine. And making it mandatory, with stiff penalities, is not helping to convince the unconvinced. Hopefully some of the new (and perhaps old?) drugs will make a positive difference in making this a more manageable risk. In the meantime, it is sad to see how different views on best options has caused so much division. And now Florida has the lowest per capita infection rate in the nation. I don’t think anyone expected that.
Regarding your previous comment about seeking “small t” truth and this comment about how little we actually know with confidence, it seems to me that science and theology have many of the same end goals.
A former pastor (the church was abusive but not everything the pastor said was nutso) talked about God revealing himself through general revelation (nature/creation) and special revelation (scripture). What is science, if not the study of God’s creation? And theology, if not the study of God’s scripture? Both study God, just through different lenses. The two have not always been so “incompatible,” as historical figures like Copernicus and Pascal can show us.
Speaking as an outsider to the professions of both science and theology, that is, so feel free to completely disagree.
Wild Honey,
On the contrary, I agree… In fact, I routinely say, Physics/Chemistry tells us that an electron is both a particle and a wave (more accurately a probability density function). In “practical” sense, this is “non-sense”… But tell that to the people were vaporized, and suffered and died in Japan from the A-bomb. About as “pragmatic” as it gets.. The are allot of other examples in physical world that I would contend is beyond our deep understanding..
Now consider the concept of the Trinity, or God all knowing, or transcending time? Or, even more relevant to TWW, free will vs predestination. Despite what the Pied Piper says, there is strong evidence for Free Will in the Bible..
Just in case Researcher hasn’t answered: I don’t know “BMJ” but “FWIW” usually means ‘For What It’s Worth”.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
I did get vaccinated against COVID . . . and still got COVID.
Would I get vaccinated again?
YES!!! (I fortunately was not terribly ill. I hate to think what would have happened if I hadn’t been vaccinated.
W
Tina,
And that is the key…. If one listens carefully, I never heard a promise of not getting COVID; what I heard s a much lower PROBABILITY of dying, or being in the ICU…….
Evidence based medicine HAS too be based on probabilities..
I have a PhD friend that use to work at Merck….. he said you would be surprised how strong the placebo effect is… SO,you must do large trials and develop strong statistics….
“Personal testimonials” do NOT cut it
Tina,
So thankful Tina that you had a mild case of COVID. I’m sure the vaccination helped with that.
Scripture speaks much about the sovereignty of God. Scripture speaks much about the free will of man. Salvation works in a way that is beyond human comprehension. To attempt to put the mind of God into a neat systematic theological box is to stand in arrogance before the Creator.
Max,
Amen
As others have pointed out it is mRNA not DNA.
But here’s a tidbit for you:
Researchers have been studying and working with mRNA vaccines for decades.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html#:~:text=mRNA%20vaccines%20have%20been%20studied,into%20an%20mRNA%20vaccine.
I think you’ve hit on a key point. In the evangelical church, and I’m sure many/most others, “Personal Testimonials” are a key part of the experience.
Fourth, Wilson believes the ethics of Christians using fake IDs is clear, but that doesn’t mean you should risk going to prison to take your family to Disneyland. You must use wisdom and do a cost-benefit analysis before using a fake vaccine ID. Seventh, Wilson wraps things up by urging you to imagine telling stories to your great grandchildren after all this has been exposed and is long past. Behave now so as to not be ashamed later after it is all over about how you acted. Have good stories to tell others later. For example, a story about resigning from Hitler Youth as soon as it is safe to do so does not constitute a “good story.”
I don’t know why anti-vaxxers are so worried about being turned into Frankenstein … they are already scary enough!
For those praying for our family: please keep it up. Altered mental status of patient number 1 not improving. Tests to be run, suspicion is covid blood clots in the brain. No clue if that is fixable if it is the case.
This is a very high price to pay because you fear a shot millions have taken.
NC Now,
Not just in evangelical/fundamentalist circles, but in hard core “Marketing”, personal testimonials is used….
linda,
Linda, I prayed for your family just now … for healing of the COVID patient and wisdom for family members still holding an anti-vax position. These are difficult times for so many Americans going through the same thing with family and friends.
putting this pre-emptively into moderation.
The first part of this post, which I just noticed, may help to understand why it is possible to have a jaundiced view of our national public health authorities while at the same time not being an anti-public-health-interventions nutcase.
We have lost institutional capacity and competence.
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2021/11/book-review-scott-gottliebs-uncontrolled-spread-debacle-at-the-cdc-and-pandemics-national-security-threat.html
These sound great, but I’d say it’s a good thing we already started vaccinating people rather than let the disease run rampant until 2022 or later.
I had a shingles vaccine years ago, and then a more effective one when that came along. One of our children had the prevailing meningitis vaccine, and then had to have a more effective one required by an educational institution. Similar things have happened with smallpox and polio inoculations, and I believe pneumonia shots as well. Better things come along, but meanwhile we use what we have, eh?
We haven’t just lost it, though. We have hounded public health officials into resigning, trolled them, shouted them down, picketed their homes, caused them to invest heavily in personal security for family survival, etc., etc. And we’ve done similar things to doctors and nurses. Some among us have demolished testing facilities and ambushed vaccination sites.
The CDC, FDA, New York State (and other states’) health authorities, et al., did make mistakes as this virus, to which no human had any immunity, began to take lives around the world. They also had to deal with chaos and opposition from some of their own political overlords.
My wild guess: the country would be in far better shape today if the grand public had decided to cooperate with the health authorities early and consistently. Many people have continued to adjust their behavior as scientific understanding of the virus has developed.
Friend,
“Medical school websites (such as Brown and Johns Hopkins) have excellent resources. Twitter accounts by medical experts, such as Ashish K. Jha and Bob Wachter…”
+++++++++++++++++++
Thank you, Friend, for the general good advice. I’ll check these sources out. I’m familiar with Ashish Jha.
I’ve also run across this panel discussion.
Robert Kaplan’s remarks (1:37:54) [UCLA, NIH, US Agency for Health Care Research, Stanford]
and Peter Doshi’s remarks (1:48:40) [Univ of Maryland, Professor of Pharmaceutical Health Services Research]
…were, well, thought-provoking.
https://rumble.com/vokrf7-sen.-johnson-expert-panel-on-federal-vaccine-mandates.html
I like the name Crapuchette. It sounds like the french “Crapule” which designates a crook.
One would like to think that over the past 21 months the national health authorities have learned from the mistakes. I don’t see a lot of evidence that they have.
The controversial mandates for vaccination in the workplace offer, as an alternative for those who don’t want to receive the vaccine, masking and periodic testing. It would make sense to mandate masking and periodic testing (with quarantine of patients who test positive for active infection) for everyone, as these (particularly if the masks are of high quality — N95 or better) can slow transmission. But vaccination with a non-sterilizing vaccine as an alternative to masking/testing … that’s the same mistake that CDC chief Wollensky made earlier in the year, and that she eventually walked back.
I think the mistakes are still being made.
Re: the erosion of institutional capacity and competence, I think this goes back decades, and has at least two parts. “Smaller government is better” is a catchy aphorism, but it is not a blanket truth. Also, unfortunately, effective public health systems by their very success tend to suppress awareness of the dangers they are confronting, and this leads to complacency and pressure on funding. That our elected leaders have presided over this erosion suggests that the problem is broader than the public health system.
Thank you for continuing a nuanced discussion.
Perfect is the enemy of good.
Constant testing is costly and stressful; just ask my relative who had to have a PCR test three times a week for five months. Relative’s setting now has vaccine requirement plus indoor masking, but most other restrictions have been dropped—and infections are near zero.
The available vaccines make a large and measurable difference in reducing both infection and transmission. Here’s one BBC story about the effects of a single dose of a two-dose vaccine:
“Those given a first dose of either the Pfizer or AstraZeneca vaccines – and who became infected three weeks later – were between 38% and 49% less likely to pass the virus on than unvaccinated people, PHE found. … protection against Covid was seen from about 14 days after vaccination, with similar levels of protection regardless of age of cases or contacts, PHE said in a statement. … this protection was on top of the reduced risk of a vaccinated person developing symptomatic infection in the first place, which is around 60 to 65% – four weeks after one dose of either vaccine.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56904993
@Samuel Conner:
As a kid, I still knew people dealing with the consequences of polio, and I still suffered from pertussis (“whooping cough”) as a kid at one time – it was horrible.
Many people fear the side effects of vaccinations more than the illness they have never seen/met, and when vaccination becomes a political issue, or even the mere existence of the virus becomes a political issue…
Strangely, in my teens and twenties, I always had Americans down as hard-headed pragmatists (“Whatever works”). No longer.
That was before the fundamentalist takeover of churches and politics.
Which ones? We’ve gotten mixed messages from the beginning. In the early days of this, when it could have made a difference, a now very famous Dr confidently told us the risk was low, go about our lives as normal, don’t wear masks, travel bans are unnecessary, etc. In hindsight, it was horribly bad guidance. In the meantime that same doctor has confidently reversed course on many of his other confidently made mistaken assertions. So it’s not surprising that people now question his judgment and accuracy on what he is confidently asserting now. Whatever turns out to be the right things for all of us to be doing now, all that past rhetoric did not help doubters get on board. Conspiracy theorists are going to theorize no matter what, but it could help if top authorities quit giving them fuel.
This is not true for military, federal employees, and federal contractors. Their only choice is to get vaccinated or request an exemption. My understanding is nearly all military exemption requests submitted so far have been denied.
I guess I spent too much time in the oilfield. What a geologist would confidently state as the situation down hole today might change by tomorrow morning when more tests were run. He was not wrong the first time, just got more data by the second day.
In the same way public health officials tell us what the data is showing them at THAT moment. An example is that we thought early on covid was only a severe respiratory disease. Now we know it affects way more systems.
The public health officials cannot tell you what they don’t know yet. But we accept the idea of gravity now, when once it was not known. Should we be spending our time grousing that “well they used to say xyz” or should we NOW refrain from leaping off tall buildings and expecting to fly?
It is time to stop refusing to get the vaccine, to mask up, and to social distance because “they changed their minds back then.” Yep, they did. More data came in. Thankfully, the policy wonks changed courses when the data changed.
If they come up with a sterilizing vaccine in a year or too, would it not be absolutely stupid to refuse it because first generation shots were not touted as sterilizing because they were not? But I can see it now “Well which is it, do they offer sterilizing immunity or not because in 2021 you said…”
Resilient people, survivors, pivot on a dime.
Except that these vaxxes are not anything like any previous vaccines — including the shingles vaccine — so it’s apples and oranges.
Even the WSJ — not exactly a foe of Big Pharma — is running an article (today) on the risk young males incur of developing myocarditis or pericarditis as a result of receiving the COVID vaccines. Yes, these cases are (supposedly) rare. But considering that young, healthy males have very low risk of serious harm from COVID itself, I’d say it’s absolutely not worth it to subject them to this mass experiment. I have two healthy millennial sons, and neither plans to get this jab. More power to them.
Previous vaccine trials were halted after just a handful of deaths. Yet VAERS alone has reported *thousands* of deaths from these vaxxes, and that number probably does not reflect all the actual incidents; many serious adverse reactions go unreported. One need not be a conspiracy kook to be concerned.
As for trusting the Experts and Authorities: Remember thalidomide? Remember the Tuskegee Experiment?
Meanwhile, the same Experts and Authorities are going out of their way to make cheap, safe, proven therapeutics like Ivermectin unavailable to anyone. Why? And why do the COVID vaxx manufacturers have ZERO liability while they’re raking in billions of dollars? These are legitimate questions. They cannot be dismissed as the ravings of a lunatic fringe.
My generation’s mantra used to be “Question Authority.” Now, apparently, it’s “Mindlessly Believe and Obey Authority.” Yikes. No thanks.
As for me and my house, we will trust the natural vaccine God gave us: a healthy immune system.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
I think that history will not approve of the now famous Dr, but I also think that his early bad guidance will be seen to have been in the context of an intensely politicized pandemic response, and that the “don’t worry, be happy, keep the economy strong” agenda was coming from the top.
I remember listening to Nancy Messonnier’s late February 2020 press availability, and feeling a chill when she mentioned that the US public health authorities were expecting that this would eventually break out into the community. That was her last availability; the markets did poorly in response to this news, and the US chief executive was not pleased.
What was needed was for senior career public health people to resign in protest and advocate for better policy (which, in the absence of preventions, prophylaxes and therapies, would have been the classic anti-contagion measures of reducing interpersonal contacts; these were implemented temporarily and inconsistently, and not very effectually).
A thing that has dismayed me is that the basically exclusive reliance on non-sterilizing vaccines as the route to “back to normal” has been continued across the change of administrations. Very little has been learned.
I watched this on Sen. Johnson’s YT channel (Kaplan around 1:10, Doshi around 1:18). I’d post a link, but the pugs are already working overtime on such things. The video was posted November 2 and is easy to find.
Their most serious claim is that the covid vaccines have not been proven to reduce deaths. Reuters has a very nice piece with links, “Fact Check-COVID-19 vaccines so far significantly reduce severe illness and hospitalization.”
Doshi climbs pretty far out onto a limb by complaining about definitions of vaccine and anti-vaxxer in Merriam-Webster. I don’t know a soul who checked the dictionary before making up their mind.
Doshi and Kaplan oppose mandating something that they assert is unproven, covered up, and curated by corporations. It’s a two-part argument: 1) we don’t trust this new product, so 2) the government should not require people to use it.
Well, what if they did buy the scientific claims? Sen. Johnson would almost certainly still oppose any vaccine requirement, even if it conferred sterilizing immunity 100% of the time.
That’s my take, although I’m having some trouble concentrating today.
At first, nobody knew exactly how the virus was transmitted (surfaces, air, water, food, even dogs and cats). It took time and studies to confirm some ideas and discard others. Production of PPE, etc., needed to scale up. Broad consensus emerged, along with questioning—much of it necessary.
I don’t listen to just one expert. Each day I look at sources with high-quality data. Where I live, state and local government erred on the side of caution, but had very few requirements legally enforced on individuals—a good balance. Our family followed requirements, advice, and requests put out by whoever we were dealing with, from the dry cleaner to schools and colleges, employers, government and military facilities, etc. These evolved but remained manageable.
Although covid is still a moving target, we now have tests for illness and antibodies, a half-dozen vaccines worldwide, and some notion that masks, distancing, and ventilation help. We have monoclonal antibodies for treatment, and will soon have two new pills in the armamentarium. That’s amazing progress in 23 months, I think.
The thought occurs that there is a similarity in the subject material of the original post and the direction that the discussion took toward debating secular policies.
There’s a “verification problem” and a “trust problem” in both realms — the churches and the State. In the church context, we encourage people to think for themselves and dig into the biblical texts to “see if these things be so”, and we consider that people who uncritically accept what their church authorities tell them are making themselves vulnerable to manipulation and mistreatment by actors who may be somewhere on a continuum from wrong-headed to actively malicious. We wish that it were not so, but “it is what it is.”
Is it really that shocking that the need to evaluate for oneself, and “verify before trusting” may exist in other realms as well? One certainly wishes that it were not so; it’s a heavy burden to ask people to make these kinds of determinations for themselves. But I think that the present circumstances suggest that, as in the churches, “it is what it is.”
Ours being a representative form of government, perhaps we can collectively demand better from our rulers in the future.
That sounds like the WRONG end of a Cost/Benefit analysis.
I wish they would have said more about what they don’t know. The problem was they were saying so many things back then with so much confidence. It was scientists, doctors, and political leaders from both sides (do you remember when some said they would never trust the shot because of who was pushing it?). I think, in hindsight, it would have been much better for them to include way more caveats back then because it would have given them more credibility now. Given the track record of statements made in the past, it’s not surprising that people would wonder if the same assertions being made today will turn out to be just as wrong in upcoming months or years, especially when new information continues to undermine those past assertions rather than affirm them. There is also that pesky historical phrase that some might remember: “Für Ihre Sicherheit!”
This is a very good point. We have learned that church leaders can be bad. Why should we not expect bad people in other institutions that we should be able to trust? We are also told to follow the money and be wary of those who are reaping huge profits. If we were to apply the same logic here…
Максим,
Enjoyed your comment.
About 754,000 Americans have died of covid. I am confident that no one on TWW blames them for their own deaths.
Life expectancy at birth in the US was about 40 years in 1860, and it is now about 78 years. That near doubling of lifespan does not represent improvement in the immune system or greater closeness to God. It comes a host of advancements developed by the God-given human mind—everything from indoor plumbing to chemotherapy.
Catholic Gate-Crasher,
This is what the CDC says about the adverse reactions to the vaccines reported to VAERS, including the over 9000 deaths of people after receiving a vaccine. The deaths may or may not be connected to the vaccine. Connections need to be made. Meanwhile over 750,000 have died in the US from Covid with 1000s suffering adverse long-term affects of Covid. Everyone gets to make their own decisions based on the facts.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html
Google Translate says this means “For your safety!”
Why did you type this in German? Are you drawing us toward the terrain of Godwin’s Law? Discussions do not improve there. I hope my hunch is incorrect.
It’s not Godwin’s Law. It’s a very pertinent historical parallel.
Do you not find this intense, relentless, all-out pressure — complete with punitive government mandates and mass job losses — just a teeny bit concerning? How can one not?
And since when is Big Pharma our concerned, compassionate, selfless protector and benefactor?
The CDC. Wow. Don’t question the authorities or the official narrative. Just obey.
I don’t even know what to say. Evidence keeps mounting *strongly* indicating a link between the COVID vaccines and serious adverse reactions. Entire countries are banning or restricting these vaccines.
Meanwhile, the vast majority of those who died allegedly *from* COVID actually died *with* COVID. Big difference. Most were elderly AND/OR had multiple comorbidities. Some were already in Hospice, for goodness sakes. Even the almighty CDC has admitted this.
For healthy young people, COVID poses almost zero risk. That is indisputable. It is *insane* to inject young kids, teens, and twenty-somethings with a potentially harmful substance — to protect them against a disease that poses virtually no threat to them in the first place.
There is so much information available now. Yet all we are doing is swallowing the CDC line, unquestioningly?? Because the government is infallible? Again, remember thalidomide?
That is not what Godwin himself says:
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-godwin-godwins-law-20180624-story.html
Dying *with* COVID is not the same as dying *from* COVID. Most of those who died had multiple serious comorbidities, as the CDC itself has testified. The vast majority were elderly. *COVID poses very little risk to healthy young people.* All of the data bear this out.
Vaccinating kids against a disease that mainly targets the elderly is insane.
Meanwhile, the vaccinated are now contracting COVID. Bigly. This, too, is borne out by mounting evidence. It has become too big to ignore, so the media are scrambling to explain it away.
Exactly, KenF!
And I say that as someone with a relative (BIL) who retired a few years ago after a long career as a High Mucky Muck at E.I. Lilly. That’s about as Big Pharma as it gets. (You should see their house. My house could fit inside it four times over.)
There are so many red flags associated with these jabs. I can’t believe people are just waving them all away and insisting on unquestioning obeisance to Pfizer, Fauci, the CDC, and the Biden administration. Apparently even asking *questions* is now verboten. How is *that,* in itself, not a red flag?
Ken F (aka Tweed),
You are confirming my suspicion. Please steer clear of comparing public health efforts, in a worldwide pandemic, with Nazi practices.
I think it’s considerably worse than that. I’ve read that even low-symptom and asymptomatic cases of COVID (conditions not tested for in the Pfizer trial) can have lasting negative aftereffects, and the frequency of this could be higher than 10% of infections. The disease can induce inflammation of blood vessels and can damage any organ.
I suspect that the number of people with some kind of lasting negative consequence from contracting the disease will eventually reach millions.
Something that is not known is whether repeated infection could lead to cumulative damage. The idea, which seems to be mainstream now, that COVID will become another annual epidemic, along with ‘flu and cold season, is troubling to me.
These unknowns IMO accentuate the importance of adding to one’s vaccination other measures, such as masking with good quality respirators and maintaining one’s “distancing” practices. It may not be safe to resume “life as normal” for a very long time.
As the virus is airborne, we probably need to think carefully about building ventilation, air filtration and air exchange with the outside. This is another area in which CDC has been slow on the uptake, though they seem to be moving in the direction of incorporating the implications of aerosol transmission into their safety recommendations. It’s a politically fraught question, because schools tend to be cash-strapped and ventilation upgrades are expensive. This is a cynical “take”, but I suspect that the pressure to vaccinate children is motivated in part by the cost of mitigating their exposure risk through improvements in school building ventilation. Vaccination is a much cheaper intervention.
As a health care professional, I get medical updates from multiple sources every week. The risk of getting heart effects from the disease is approximately 70x higher than getting myocarditis from the mRNA vaccines.
And don’t forget, there is another (though less effective) vaccine option not made using mRNA.
re: erosion of institutional capacity and competence,
Months ago US public health authorities elected to not attempt to understand the incidence of low- and a-symptomatic CV infection in US, recommending instead that testing for infection be focused on people with COVID symptoms.
That leads to this situation:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-u-s-is-relying-on-other-countries-data-to-make-its-booster-shot-decisions/
It’s a head-scratcher.
Not really. The article explains it pretty well. We have no way to gather data appropriately across 50 states and hundreds of healthcare providers. The people demand individuality, and yet they still want perfection from our government when making suggestions and mandates on vaccines.
Herding cats comes to mind . . .
Elsewhere on this thread are links to hours of recent hearings hosted by Sen. Ron Johnson. People have been questioning everything, in all settings, from the outset.
The three vaccines available in the US were developed during the previous administration. Pfizer and Moderna received emergency use authorization in December 2020.
This is a worldwide pandemic, not limited to the US. The virus does not care where people live or what they think. It reacts only to levels of protection and vulnerability.
As of last week, approximately 52% of the world’s population had received at least one dose of a covid vaccine. Not many of those four billion people were merely bowing down to American public figures. A lot of them also did not have access to the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines.
Friend,
thank you, friend, for your response. I appreciate your perspective.
(mr. johnson I ignored).
elastigirl,
🙂
It seems to me like a perfectly good comparison. I am surprised by the harshness of your reaction. Did you read the article by Godwin? You misused his law in exactly they way he laments that people misuse it. I was making he point that people in charge have made mistakes that gave many reasons for doubters to doubt. On top of that, tyrannies in the past, such as the Nazis, used crises of one kind or another to consolidate power and squash freedoms – “Never let a good crisis go to waste” is not at all a modern idea.
Your complete rejection of making any any comparisons at all with Nazis has a bit of feel of “Touch not Thine anointed.” I don’t think that is what you meant to communicate, but it has that feel to it. Why are the Nazis off limits? It also makes it sound like no one ever in any circumstance should ever use the Nazis as an example of anything to avoid. But if we can never make a comparison to them we could be doomed to repeat history.
The Nazis did not take power overnight – it came gradually, little by little, until it was too late. “It’s for your safety” was great rationale – it served them well. A good trap looks perfectly natural until it’s too late to get out. This is what the Nazis did – all their reductions in personal liberty seemed rational, but they slowly eroded freedoms to the point that there was no freedom left. Are we there yet? No. But we need to be careful that we don’t repeat that dynamic. While this global crisis is different from the global crisis surrounding WW2, they have similarities in that they provide perfectly plausible rationale for the powerful to take more power.
I think it’s worth making comparisons like the one I made from time to time. But others have different opinions. I hope TWW does not become a single POV site with strict limits on what opinions are allowable.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
The article by Godwin is behind a paywall.
I don’t need to learn anything more about World War II.
Your observation is not original.
If you think your comparison is apt, I suggest you read reactions to your line of “thinking” from the Jewish leaders who have asked Americans not to parade around in yellow stars.
I did not get thenpay wall. Some quotes from the article:
“Since it was released into the wilds of the internet in 1991, Godwin’s Law (which I nowadays abbreviate to “GL”) has been frequently reduced to a blurrier notion: that whenever someone compares anything current to Nazis or Hitler it means the discussion is over, or that that person lost the argument. It’s also sometimes used (reflexively, lazily) to suggest that anyone who invokes a comparison to Nazis or Hitler has somehow “broken” the Law, and thus demonstrated their failure to grasp what made the Holocaust uniquely horrific.”
“GL is about remembering history well enough to draw parallels — sometimes with Hitler or with Nazis, sure — that are deeply considered. That matter. Sometimes those comparisons are going to be appropriate, and on those occasions GL should function less as a conversation ender and more as a conversation starter.”
“By all means cite GL if you think some Nazi comparison is baseless, needlessly inflammatory or hyperbolic. But Godwin’s Law was never meant to block us from challenging the institutionalization of cruelty or the callousness of officials who claim to be just following the law. It definitely wasn’t meant to shield our leaders from being slammed for the current fashion of pitching falsehoods as fact. These behaviors, distressing as they are, may not yet add up to a new Reich, but please forgive me for worrying that they’re the “embryonic form” of a horror we hoped we had put behind us.”
I think you and I are in complete agreement about the yellow star issue. But I was not making any allusions to the holocaust in my comments. To tie everything the Nazis did to the holocaust makes it sound like what they did would have been perfectly fine had they not killed the Jews. But as horrible as the holocaust was, it was only one aspect of their evil. And it all started in a way that seemed reasonable given the circumstances. It only became obvious after it was too late to stop it. That is the important connection right now because that is what the vaccination mandate fight is about.
Recommended reading, full of the desired complex implications:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/germany-wants-ban-on-wearing-yellow-star-to-protest-pandemic-lockdowns/
This does not obviate the fact that COVID poses very little threat to young people. Statistics bear this out. And one does not have to be in the healthcare industry to be able to read statistics.
Young males, in particular, are more at risk from the jab than from COVID itself.
Excellent. Thank you.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
I, too, hope that TWW does not become a single-POV site. I was beginning to fear that it was, with all the recent cheerleading for the jab and dismissal of “anti-vaxxers” as fringe kooks.
I am heartened to see that my fears are unfounded.
That’s my impression too, but I think that there’s a risk of binary thinking in terms of rejecting all protective measures because one does not want to accept the risk of one of them. We understand the long-term sequelae of low- and no-symptom CV infection even less than we understand current “long COVID” that is being seen in people with symptomatic disease. These may be significant even in the young, and people who believe, on current science, that they are not at significant risk from CV infection could be setting themselves up for future trouble if they reject non-pharmaceutical protective measures that can reduce their likelihood of becoming infected in the first place.
In my social circle, people who are vaxxed seem to think that masks and distancing are no longer important. Vaccination, they think, make’s them safe. I suspect that many who are at, on present understandings, at low risk of adverse consequences of CV infection — “I’m safe because of my demographic”, might similarly be rejecting all anti-contagion measures. I think that’s unwise.
Here’s a disheartening analysis of the “CV will become endemic and we will live with it” approach that seems to be mainstream now.
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2021/11/mckinsey-the-force-multiplier-for-the-opioid-crisis-goes-all-in-with-anti-public-health-messaging-on-covid.html
We may find, in a decades time, that CV directly and indirectly (through long-term sequelae) has become the leading cause of death, with life-spans significantly reduced. The thought that so many of us are dying “with active CV” rather than “from it” will not be of much comfort if this turns out to be the case.
Quoting the CDC does not equal “just obey.” Quoting the CDC is just that. Quoting the CDC doesn’t mean one doesn’t question the government. You shouldn’t imply that it does.
Some countries have suspended the use of one vaccine until further data us gathered. I don’t see where countries are banning “these” vaccines. I’m not sure what you were referring to by “these.”
The world is trying to deal quickly with a very terrible situation. There will be problems. Right now the death rate from people having Covid has been reduced. Long-term illnesses from covid have been reduced.
People can make their own choices.
The great thing about this discussion is that it is happening at all. It would be hard for us to cover this terrain thoughtfully in person.
TWW has an amazing range of beliefs and viewpoints. People don’t come here just to have their own ideas echoed and reinforced, right? We learn how other people think, what they believe, and a bit about how they arrived where they are. If we are decent people, we take a moment to weigh what’s being said… and continue to view others here as decent people.
Bridget,
The CDC has a useful bar graph called “Weekly number of deaths (from all causes).” The United States has had abnormally high death rates every single week since March 28, 2020. Figures are based on death certificates filed by local coroners nationwide. The “all causes” part cuts through concerns about causes of death being recorded incorrectly.
Here’s the link (scroll down to see the graph): https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
Friend,
Thank you Friend.
And we won’t falsely accuse, shame, or attempt to silence people based on incomplete information or false assumptions. Because a true Friend would never do that. 🙂
Well, thank you, Ken. As always, it’s impossible to hear tone of voice online, or really to gauge intention. This discussion has been harder than many. 🙂
It would be interesting to compare this with smoking, which results in more than 480,000 deaths each year (comparable to COVID), putting quite a lot of stress on the medical system, families, employers, etc. Can you imagine if the federal government implemented mandates that smokers could be denied employment, be denied medical benefits, be denied travel, be denied access to public places, be socially ostracized, and be court martialed? But that could never happen here…
It might not have been as hard if you had asked me for clarification rather than assuming the worst about me and then getting triggered by it. You might find that I am much more in agreement with you than you had assumed.
Yes, and thank you. I’d like to think that I strive to not think ill of those with whom I disagree, but perhaps I come across as cranky. I am exasperated with the people who are overseeing public welfare.
Over the last 2 years, I feel that I have been groping through an informational fog. And there are days when I wonder whether I may have had a low-symptom CV infection and am experiencing long-COVID ‘brain fog’.
It’s very hard to know what human authorities to trust, and whether one’s standards of verification are themselves trustworthy.
We can be patient with one another, and with ourselves.
My wife follows several long covid groups because she has found some great info for helping her with her long covid issues, which hit her harder than me. On FB search “Tom Bunker Long Covid” for one she likes. There is evidence that the micro blood clots can cause neurological damage and changes in personality. This is a viscious virus. I think it will take years to discover all the impacts.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
It’s almost as if these new viruses that arise have a malevolence of their own.
And hatched by the powers of darkness.
Biological weapon?
I think there is good reason to believe this virus is not natural.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
I don’t quite understand the comparison.
Smoking is not a contagious viral disease that can be easily passed to others by breathing on them. Covid is. It can cause as many or more problems than second hand smoke.
The smoke from cigarettes can kill other people, hence thousands of laws on the books throughout the US about where people can and cannot smoke. Smoking can cause higher car insurance. Governments are not allowing smokers to cause other people to become ill despite what an individual or business may think.
I personally believed that people shouldn’t be able to harm others by passing on a proven deadly virus. I’m against forcing people to get vaccines. I’m not against mandates to keep people safe via “either” vaccines or testing with masking.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Sorry your wife is dealing with long covid issues.
And we may find that the Jab has become the leading cause of death.
Meanwhile, I am not willing to risk my kids’ lives on a jab with questionable efficacy and possible horrific side effects against a disease that hardly affects them at all.
Your mileage may vary, but good grief, can’t we just live and let live?
On top of that, the 750,000 number is just bogus. The CDC itself (which Bridget is so fond of citing) has publicly stated that most of those deaths were not *from* COVID but *with* COVID. Only about 6% were from COVID alone.
Most of the deceased had multiple *serious* comorbidities, often including morbid obesity and diabetes. The vast majority were elderly. In a few notorious cases, deaths were recorded as caused by COVID when the victim had died in a motorcycle accident!
Question: If one is 89, morbidly obese, with diabetes and heart disease, declining daily and already in Hospice, and one dies after a brief bout with COVID…did one really die *of* COVID? I mean, this is a legitimate question, but we aren’t allowed to even ask it. We keep having our noses rubbed in the 750,000 statistic as if it is unassailable Gospel Truth. It’s not.
I’m sorry your wife and you are struggling with long covid issues. My younger sister got COVID early in 2020 and had a rough time with it and we’ve been following doctors interested in helping with that. We’re both very grateful that there were practicing doctors and researchers who were/are interested in looking for therapeutics and other doctors interested in sharing particular details of medical aspects of what was known as the year went on. If the proof is in the pudding, even with a sample size of 1, my sister is better off from the help of the therapeutics that were recommended.
I am one who read things early in the spring of 2020 that led me to look up definitions, like “herd immunity” and others and when the definitions came into being and how recently they were changed. I’m suspicious. I would like to trust the facts. But, from my perspective, facts are not necessarily in summary statistics. Facts might be in the raw data examined by an expert independent of Pharma/gov money and non-philanthropic(even though trying to pass as philanthropic) nonprofit money. Is that somewhere around? Trustworthiness would invite honest examination, I think, especially if they know they have a solid product. Summary statistics ought to be examined for bias, a basic “science” step, not that I’m an expert. And a scan of the short and long term horizons for whistleblowers ought to be a part of evaluation of facts/summary stats.
The replication speed of the delta variant is pretty evidently wicked. It’s a shame therapeutics that were already available weren’t embraced, even as a shot-gun approach, while the original variant was predominate, IMO. And if these therapeutics have the same or similar basic antiviral mechanisms as the “novel” pills, what is up with that? Is it “science?”
I’m not anti-vaxx, nor am I a “science-denier”, nor am I YEC. Three or four years ago I got an overdue vaccine. I held out a long time, for good reason, but eventually got a covid vaccine. Sweden and Denmark have paused the Moderna vaccine for ages born after 1991. I would love to see our “cutting edge science” used for personalized patient informed consent health care. Vaccine mandates seem like a bad idea. Stocking our medicine cabinets, whether vaccinated or not, with the helpful things that caring medical experts, practicing medicine, recommend seems like a good idea.
Looking only at numbers of deaths and the impact on the health care system, it is a good comparison. I agree there are other factors, but the numbers are what drive people to believe draconian actions are appropriate. No one would be pushing for these actions if COVID deaths were 75,000 instead of 750,000. I believe that when the dust settles, proper hygiene and self-isolating when sick will be found much more effective than the various mandates and lockdowns. I suspect it will take a while before we will have good data on the effectiveness of vaccine mandates.
Thanks. We had it back in Feb 2020, before there were tests for it. The way we know we had it, other than symptoms that matched so well, was my wife testing positive for the antibodies when she was doing medical workups to see if the vaccine would be safe for her. The long term impacts hit her harder than me. Her sister was hit very hard with it – went from being very athletic to having trouble climbing a flight of stairs.
As for all the appropriate measures to take, the extreme think bothers me more than anything. It seems like both sides are demonizing the other and people in the middle are getting attacked from both sides. So I pretty much agree with what you wrote.
I don’t know what the real number is, but I am convinced it is pretty high. My daughter is a completely burned out ICU nurse who saw quite a lot of people die from this, so I known it is a real thing. As real as this is, I still don’t think The Science (pbuh) has gotten enough cross examination.
As a side note, there is no such thing as “The Science.” Rather, there are flawed humans with specific skills, education, and experience who develop opinions and hypotheses for others to validate through testing. There is such a thing as consensus, but consensus changes over time as more is learned. There is no single thing that one can point to and say “this thing here is THE Science.”
I think it more likely an accidental eacape from a lab. It could be that some were trying to weaponize it, but if they were I doubt they were ready to release it because it did not benefit anyone other than some companies making huge profits from the impacts. It would have been much more effective to have a more selective weopon.
Out of genuine curiosity, are there any measures that you would recommend, to people who are close and dear to you, to reduce their risk of contracting the virus?
I have seen serious people (Scott Atlas comes to mind) who reckon that if you are young, it is actually advisable to contract the virus sooner than later, on the theory (I think) that it’s better to catch this, for the sake of developing natural immunity, while you are still in a demographic that (on the current understanding of ‘the science’) is at low risk of acute adverse consequences (the question of long-term sequelae is generally not prominent in these arguments; I think that should be included as a significant caveat ).
This seems to me deeply unwise, and that if one fears the vaccines, it would be advisable to employ all reasonable non-vaccine measures to avoid infection until such time as low-risk prophylactic and curative drugs become available.
Are there any practices you consider worthy of recommendation for reducing one’s likelihood of contracting the virus?
I’m afraid that managing the epidemic up to the notional capacity of hospital ICU wards — that’s what “flattening the curve” was about, after all (bad as it was, I think it was better than “let ‘er rip”, but ‘better’ shouldn’t be confused with ‘good enough’) — is going to have unintended long-term sequelae for the health-care system and society.
Is your daughter still working in medicine? Will she be able to find a way of practicing her skills that does not damage her own health?
——
I was taken aback at your mention of long COVID. I wonder how much unspoken suffering there is in TWW’s large readership.
The elevated all cause mortality statistics, helpfully linked by
Friend,
indicate that “something” changed in Spring 2020 that has accelerated the passing of people who would eventually die of some cause (as will we all).
Here’s a thought experiment. Suppose the price of gasoline falls dramatically and this leads everyone to drive more than they previously did, and the effect is stronger in the elderly, since they are more income-constrained. The elderly, of course, tend to have more co-morbidities, too.
Traffic accidents will increase, and the deaths, after auto accident trauma, of elderly people with comorbidities will also increase.
Should these deaths be attributed to the comborbidities — which certainly do enhance one’s vulnerability to death by auto-accident trauma — or should the deaths be attributed to the triggering factor — the traumas caused by the accidents?
I think the right way to think about this is that “comorbidities increase the likelihood of adverse outcomes of COVID.” COVID is what is pushing these people over the edge. To insist otherwise is to believe that if the pandemic had not taken place, we would still have experienced the measured acceleration in all cause mortality. That strikes me as a highly implausible belief.
I say this without rancor or exasperation.
She quit a few weeks ago – plans to spend a year recovering. On the bright side, she and her family will be moving in with us for awhile. Having young grandchildren in the house will be awesome.
Hmmm. I cited the CDC once. I’m not ashamed of citing them, nor in awe of them.
I spoke too soon and should have added:
Or maybe it’s a just a herd thinning mechanism, the like of which have been in play since the world began.
When populations of deer, pigeons, humans, what have you, get too big and start out-stripping their resources, Mother Nature is forced to take ‘thinning’ action.
Thank you all for this conversation.
the honesty, the intelligent thoughtful consideration on the subject… i am benefitting from it so much.
it’s the conversation that is impossible to have elsewhere.
The only “selection” for biological weapons is where they are released. Ricin, botulinum toxin, anthrax, cholera, pneumonic plague, COVID-19 (?) are not selective … all are likely candidates if a rogue nation wants to get ugly with its enemies.
I’m so sorry your wife’s sister struggles with long covid, too, and to that extent. I hope you all are finding helpful medical support. My younger sister lives far from any of us other siblings. As we spoke on the phone the spring of 2020, I could hear that the phone conversation left her struggling for breath. She didn’t have very good health insurance and she was fighting to do some pretty reasonable steps that were later confirmed by the doctors we follow. Finally, thank God, via cheap telemedicine access we connected with a doctor that was willing to offer a therapeutic and ongoing connection with her as she moved through the aftermath of how covid infection affected/affects her body. She later got the vaccine before I did and it set her back in terms of recovery, but the telemedicine doctor stuck by her with other therapeutics and she is able to work, as she wants to.
Yes, I am bothered by this, too. I think the bullying/ridicule bothers me the most and the big influencers, are in a position to have done the most of this(of both political and private parties). That’s the path my mind takes through it. A relative told me that they stopped at a gas/convenience store and saw a sign saying “masks are not allowed inside.” I think that’s a bit much, but I’m not as bothered by that as I am about the massive transfer of taxpayer money done without liability or accountability.
The deeper troubling thing for me is the change, or maybe takeover, or lack of respect or flexibility…something, it seems to me, in the practice/philosophy or definition of science. The word consensus doesn’t necessarily capture it for me. Sometimes outliers are full of relevant information. Didn’t science begin with curiosity and observation? Does science now=RCT only? I wouldn’t want to be in a control group and not get a treatment that I had a well reasoned faith in, or willingness to risk due to a well reasoned estimate of safety. I also wouldn’t want to be in a controlled study and be in the treatment group of a treatment where the dosage was limited/short of other reasonable medicine practicing experts’ recommended dosage, even if I had a choice to get the treatment. It seems “off” to me to have an “expert” tell people what they should want to participate in, especially without laying the whole deal out in a transparent way and answering all clarifying questions, without stifling them.
Thank you for letting me know.
Thanks. She is doing much better, but it’s been a long and slow recovery. For a while she was not able to work because of the brain fog. That has gotten much better and she is now getting ready for a half marathon. It turns out that pushing yourself too hard is counterproductive and can actually cause symptoms such as fever, cough, and fatigue to return even without a new infection. It seems to hit athletes pretty hard. She found help to slowly recover without overdoing it. It’s not clear whether or not the vaccine helps resolve long covid. For some it seems to make a difference, but others experience only a temporary benefit, and others experience no benefit. My sister, who is an alergist, says it helps the immune system better identify the spike protein as an enemy, which seems to be the reason it helps some with long covid. It is a wicked virus.
For some reason, anyone who questions the Party Line on vaccines gets accused of not taking COVID seriously.
This is so tiresome.
Yes, COVID can be really serious, especially for older people with comorbidities. I totally get that.
Yes, there have been many deaths, although nowhere near 750,000 from COVID alone. Yes, this is tragic, and yes, I have known one victim. (She was 89.)
This still does not justify jabbing healthy *young* people with an experimental therapy shown to be riskier to them than COVID itself.
What would I recommend for my sons? Exactly what they’re doing. My older son, a teacher, hikes every single day after school. Both sons eat healthily. It’s called an immune system, y’all. The stronger it is, the better.
Meanwhile, believe it or not, we are all going to die, and most of us won’t die from COVID. I turned 70 in April. I have lived my Biblical “threescore and ten.” I am on borrowed time now. My job is to prepare for eternity, not to scramble desperately to defer it forever. The latter is completely unrealistic anyway.
The old American shapenote hymns are very instructive. Many of them are about death, and they counsel us older Christians to welcome it, not desperately run from it. No, we don’t court it — Heaven forbid. But neither do we regard it as the absolute worst thing that could ever happen to us. Because it’s going to happen, whether we like it or not. And COVID will likely have little or nothing to do with it.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
I’m glad to hear that your sister-in-law found help and is already getting some of her health and athletic life back. Sounds like you and your family came across similar information that my younger sister and I found. I’m glad that information is out there and some practicing doctors have risked pubic exposure and the fallout from that to help as many hurting people as they can.
Thanks.
Ken S
I took some time to read your comments. Sadly, they are hype as opposed to careful research. Before you start, my husband is a cardiologist and was a researcher. I was also a nurse. Both of us believe that it is nonsense to say that the vaccine changes one’s DNA is silly. It sounds like a sy fy show in which we are all going to change into lizards.
Did you know that you can get opposing views with “proof” for anything you darn well wish and on any topic you wish? Take any dietary item, any fuel, any concerns on the environment, etc., how often to get a mammogram, how to treat (or not treat) prostate cancer, the use of antibiotics, etc., the age of the earth, the use of pesticides, etc.
And if you get the opposing view and start collecting more of it, it can become all-consuming. There was. a man I knew who was absolutely convinced that we would be back in the dark ages for Y2K. He ran around with a briefcase full of “proof.” He was such a believer, he quit his job and went to the Upper Michigan area to live off the grid, along with bags of seed and a hoe-to grow food. I shook my head. He thought I was insane for not believing him. When I joked that when the world fell apart, I knew where to go. Very seriously, he said “Sorry. We won’t help you then!” Good night!
What makes it even sadder is that the true believers never said they were wrong. In fact, one person said it was guys like him who saved the country!
Don’t you remember all of the talk about Satanic cults sacrificing babies? I put this into
Googles-
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=satanic+cults+sacrificing+babies&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
Ken, I believve that you are wrong and you are making this an us-against-them scenario. If you choose not to get the vaccine, so be it. But don’t try to tell me our “DNA” has changed and I don’t care what “proof” you have. There are many blogs out there that would love to interact with conspiracy theories regarding the vaccine. Please go there. You will be so happy.
You haven’t convinced any of is but I know that you know that you are smarter than all of us and maybe even a better Christian. That’ s how this all goes.
Dee, who is Ken S? Do you mean Ken F? If so, I am at a total loss. Far from presenting himself as a hubristic poseur who thinks he’s smarter than anyone else, he has consistently come across — to me, at least — as an incredibly humble, reasonable guy, who goes out of his way to see both sides.
I am gobsmacked.
I think I have often been abrasive and uncharitable. But Ken F? Never.
Is there really a Party Line here at TWW — a dogmatic line one is not allowed to cross? If so, that is truly disheartening.
I mean, it would be one thing if the dividing line was over sex abuse. But over a vaccine? :O
It’s insane the way these vaccines have driven a wedge through our society. We were polarized before. Now the polarization is off the charts.
Catholic Gate-Crasher,
it is a different Ken, not KenF.
seems to me dee is simply expressing her convictions just as you have.
Everyone associated with this blog comes from families and groups of friends who are educated and/or working in the science and tech fields. And we keep up. By that I mean we have all been studying various science issues for decades even if we don’t work in any particular field.
We are fairly confident we can tell the good science from the bad. We even allow people a lot of leeway when they head towards the bad. But we decided a long time ago not to allow people to to promote what we, in the end, consider bad science. Which in the end isn’t science. If someone wants to do this they can start their own blog. We will even point them to a starting point if they ask politely.
Much of this is discussed in the link to our commenting rules above the comment box.
Not me. But one could argue that it would be good for me to spend more time in the fiction secrion. Did you hear that all these various conspiracy theories were invented by the government to hide the real conspiracies? The fact that there is no evidence for it proves it is true.
For the record, I wasn’t attacking Dee. I was defending Ken F. Before I posted, I combed through the comments to find Ken S. Not finding him anywhere, I assumed Ken F was the intended addressee. Bad assumption but somewhat understandable, I think, given that there appears to be no visible post hereabouts by a Ken S.
I certainly would never, ever challenge anyone else — least of all the board owner — over the right to express an opinion. I am a firm believer in freedom of expression, although I dislike incivility and *ad hominem,* which sometimes accompany free expression (rarely here, thankfully).
I am glad to know that I, too, may express my opinion — even though my graduate degree is in English, not science, and therefore I am not even *entitled* to an opinion on the Jab, according to MBTC. 😉
Seriously, though, I have felt for some time now that my views are out of sync with the (apparently) dominant POV on this forum. So, it’s probably best that I focus my energies elsewhere. 🙂
LOL, sounds like my kids: “Everything is a psy-op.”
Hmmm… including the claim that everything is a psy-op?
If you ever feel like discussing this stuff further, Ken With An F, please feel free to email me at johnpaulsteve@gmail.com
Just to clear thinks up.
The person Dee referred to as “Ken S” was most recently posting as “Ken”. No suffix.
His comments on this post have been removed.
My real name is also Ken.
Guys like him were the reason I started using my current handle.
Don’t go QAnon on us, Max.