“I was a disembodied, wandering viewpoint.” — Olaf Stapledon
Subtitled: One more stupid post from Desiring God.
I hate it when I waste my time reading the nonsense that some women post who are writing for groups like The Gospel Coalition or Desiring God. It is obvious that such women have husbands who have received their education at Southern Seminary, and are now pastors of Baptist churches which push “biblical counseling.” Such women push nonsense that women who are not “one of us” are doing nothing to help their disembodied souls by their internet presence.
This tweet from Desiring God made the rounds a couple of weeks ago. At first, I thought it was a joke. Truly. I couldn’t believe that anyone would write such an ill-conceived tweet as this one.
It was so stupid that I thought it must have been written by John Piper. Imagine my surprise when I discovered that it was written by a woman, Tilly Dillehay, writing for Desiring God. Here is a link to her post entitled How Satan Undoes a Mom: Spiritual War in Motherhood. I have read other posts by Tilly but found they were filled with the typical ultra-hard complementarian stuff that attracts The Gospel Coalition and Desiring God. Where have I heard Tilly’s name before?
Tilly Dillehay and using the rod on little children.
I wrote this post about her apparent advocating for the spanking of babies/little children and The Gospel Coalition loved it. The Gospel Coalition and ACBC Promote Spanking Babies and Little Kids ala Ted Tripp. Folks, Our Children Aren’t Sheep To Control With the Rod.
In this post, I quoted extensively from her deeply concerning post which was featured by The Gospel Coalition in 2020. How the Rod Can Point Children to God. Here are some quotes from that post.
…But what I want to argue for here is a simple and fairly uncontroversial statement: the Proverbs commend the use of the rod. They assume that the principle of the rod is an essential part of loving our kids.
…Finding out how to communicate that authority without the physical rod will require great wisdom. It’s another reason why we need to be willing to humbly ask for input from experienced parents who’ve walked a similar road. And for the parents whose children don’t fit into these narrow exceptional cases, exceptions shouldn’t be used as an excuse to ignore Scripture’s call.
…(I wrote) Tilly goes on and on about out-of-control children and teens. She mentions one boy who said to his parent, “Shut up and drive.” She then came to the conclusion that the only way to prevent such absurd behavior is to use the rod because the Bible obviously says so.
Here is where it gets dangerous. The rod can be used on babies.
…I wrote: Tilly obviously has no trouble with someone who recommends using the rod to punish a baby. She got downright excited that Ted Tripp has a *full chapter on the use of the rod.*
…She wrote: And Tedd Tripp has a full chapter on the rod in Shepherding a Child’s Heart.
…I wrote this: So I must assume that she believes in using the rod on an eight-month-old baby!
Tilly’s church believes in the ACBC way.
In that post, I also noted that the biblical counseling group, ACBC, recommends Ted Tripp’s book as well. Her husband is a pastor at this church, Grace Baptist Church of Hartsville, TN, which is a proud supporter of ACBC.
So what did Tilly do now? Dee, once again, is a victim of Stan.
Tilly’s tweet spread through the Twitterverse right quickly. Needless to say, it was roundly laughed at and censured. Let’s look at the quote on its own.
Some of Satan’s best work is accomplished by women talking to women, in the floating world of disembodied souls on the internet.
Tilly, living in the middle woods of Tennessee, is obviously well protected from icky topics like sex abuse in the church. Surely, if she were not so isolated, she would be aware of what many women who talk to women on the internet have done to expose and fight sexual abuse in the wider church. Except, you see, Tilly is making use of the internet to send her disembodied podcasts onto the web to speak to women about such important subjects things as marital submission and hobbies in the home on Home Fires. She also blogs with her husband, Justin, at While We Wait. Apparently, since she is fearful that Satan might come and get her, I assume that she never, ever speaks to anyone on the internet unless she can see them in their full-bodied state. Except, she does allow one to leave a comment which appears not to be a hot commodity over there.
In fact, it seems like Tilly is out there drumming up business for her site more than I am. Podcasts, interviews, blog posts, etc. Let’s look at some of her thinking in the Desiring God post.
Satan targets moms.
Satan’s warfare on woman and her seed is not a side project. It is a major part of his strategy. To Satan, mothers represent the unrelenting multiplication of hated human images of the hated God-man who is coming soon to end his evil reign. Mothers are stewards of the home, superintendents of the precious time called childhood, where Satan hopes to do his worst work — and often sees worse defeat.
Except, Satan does not target moms anymore so than other humans in other occupations. I took a look at the internet. Here are more groups that some think Satan targets.
- Satan zeroes in on young people. YOU are at the top of Satan’s hit list. Satan is out to get YOU—dead or alive!
- Because as followers of Jesus, the enemy has placed a target on your back and mine.
- Someone who has stepped up to spiritual leadership
- Your mind
- How Satan Targets Children
Ok, that’s enough wasting my time. It boils down to this. Everyone on this planet is a target for Satan. Satan is known as the accuser and it is something that all of us as Christians struggle with from time to time. However, it seems to me that Tilly is a bit insecure with her role as a mother. It appears that this is an easy way to build up her security as a mother by claiming that Satan is especially targeting her. “I’m really important because Satan is targeting me.” Let’s look at what she said one more time.
Some of Satan’s best work is accomplished by women talking to women, in the floating world of disembodied souls on the Internet. So every Christian woman who would grow in wisdom actively pursues sound doctrine (Titus 2:1), letting the word of Christ dwell in her richly (Colossians 3:16), regularly meditating on what is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, and commendable (Philippians 4:8).
I have used my disembodied time on the Internet routing out sexual, physical, emotional, and spiritual abuse on the internet. In so doing, I have become friends with those who are doing similar disembodied work. Without us Ravi Zacarias would have died as a great leader, Bill Hybels would still be leading Willow Creek, and James MacDonald would still be in charge at Harvest, Jules Woodson’s abuser, Andy Savage, would still be leading a megachurch. Southern Seminary’s president, Al Mohler, would still be best buddies with CJ Mahaney and friends.
I almost forgot about the non-disembodied accusations of abuse at John Piper’s Bethlehem Seminary and Church. Desiring God, who published this post, is linked to all of that as well. It seems like Satan has done a pretty good job targetting all of that.)
If anyone wants to see the effects of Satan’s work, spend some time getting to know the victims of Sovereign Grace Ministries, now known as Sovereign Grace Churches. (Those SGC people get really bent out of shape when I call them SGM. It’s a pain to write the whole thing out but I want them to feel “comfortable….”)
Those of us who have labored in the area of abuse have learned that friendships can be formed via the internet. We can labor together to illuminate the ugliness in the church. (I wonder if Tilly thinks that Satan targets the church at all.) Those of us who have labored in the area of abuse have learned that friendships can be formed via the internet. In fact, Todd Wilhelm who writes at this blog became a friend when he was still in Dubai. I wrote his story of abuse at the hands of a 9 Marks church.
So, back to my embodied state since I have to make dinner. However, never forget that the Daughters of Stan (sic) and the men’s auxiliary. Sons of Stan, are doing great work on the internet. Maybe Tilly could drop by, in her disembodied state, and see what God is doing.
Dee, weren’t you also accused of some kind of involvement with satin?
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Dee might have satin sheets on her bed.
The “Floating World” (ukiyo-e) was a prominent genre of Japanese visual art during the Shogunate (~1600-1868ish). Pretty much everyone is familiar with it—it’s those Japanese woodblock prints that still continue to captivate. The most famous is “The Great Wave off Kanagawa,” by Hokusai Katsushika. It’s part of his 36 Views of Mt. Fuji, but the mountain is absolutely dwarfed by this monster wave with finger like extensions reaching out to grab at the three small boats below it. I saw a print and several of the print blocks (one for every color) at the Boston MFA and the most surprising this is how *small* it is (10.1 inches by 14.9 inches).
I’m kind of offended that the writer appropriated “floating world” for whatever she was trying to prove.
Isn’t Mrs. Dillehay a woman talking to disembodied women on the internet? Her tweet makes no sense.
Assumes women are not spiritually mature enough to tell Satan from God.
It took the devil himself to encourage Eve to sin
Adam, it merely took a request from another human.
What does this say?
Sounds like Ms. Tilly has had her derivative brain washed. I think some of these women who have been ensnared by the beauty of complementarity – with no hope of escape – desire for some sick reason to draw others into the bondage.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Yes but I find more jokes when i discuss the one about Stan. However, I did get one joke out of satin. I said that O’m cheap. I only wear wash and wear.
It says more than complementarian men want to hear.
To me it says that Adam chose death rather than be parted from his Eve.
I’m sure that statement would set her off!
“We can labor together to illuminate the ugliness in the church … Those of us who have labored in the area of abuse have learned that friendships can be formed via the internet.”
Ah yes, the beauty of friendships and fellowship in this labor of love. Ever grateful for you all here at TWW, and anticipating meeting some day in the presence of our Lord.
Thanks to our lovely Dee for providing this platform, by the grace of God.
God bless you all, fellow laborers and lovely friends.
Partners in bondage? Misery loves company?
OTOH, there’s myth making regarding the bravado veneer camouflaging just-beneath-the-surface evil men.
History writer Erik Larson notes that Martha Dodd, daughter of our US Ambassador to Germany in the 1930s, dated the genocidist leader and a couple of his henchmen, (“In the Garden of Beasts”). An American woman, IOW one of us, oblivious to evil while engaged and enamoured with its shiny macho lover leaders.
The intellectual cultural elite who disdain the needy can be such a luscious worm that the hidden hook is noted but ignored. Gulp.
I’m trying to make sense of it – not so sure it can be done.
Part of her tweet: “ ……..in the floating world of disembodied souls on the internet.”
Uhm, she thinks there are souls floating around on the internet???
Sounds kinda like some twisted form of Catholic purgatory.
“Some of Satan’s best work is accomplished by women talking to women, in the floating world of disembodied souls on the internet.”–Tilly Dillehay
what utter horsesh|t.
spoken by Tilly Dillehay as she promotes herself and her cottage industry of talking to women in the floating world of disembodied souls on the internet, plastering her name and photograph everywhere.
it’s just too much…
terrifying is what I would call these ‘christians’ who advocate the beatings of infants
I mean something very sick is going on in a person’s soul when they ‘justify’ the abuse of an infant in the name of God, that can be the ONLY reason for such evil
all of this misogyny, child abuse, and disrespect for the dignity of other human persons must come out of the same deep well that goes down into hell and also brings up the kind of prideful, self-worshiping men who need to be treated as though they were born to stand on a pedestal and look down on women, seeing the women as sub-humans incapable of being worthy of respect
it’s a sickness, this evil . . . likely the result of self-idolatry and pride run amok in a closed society where unkindness to a small infant is seen as ‘Christ-like’ . . . this is as bad as it gets in these cult-like enclaves
images of children crying in that film ‘Jesus Camp’ . . . heart-breaking cruelty and mean-spiritedness . . . thanks for letting me rant
“I’m trying to make sense of it – not so sure it can be done.
Part of her tweet: “ ……..in the floating world of disembodied souls on the internet.””
well, it can’t be any more disembodied than phone calls, texting, emails, or sending letters the old-fashioned way through the mail. so no more o’ that, Tilly.
“I’m trying to make sense of it …“ ……..in the floating world of disembodied souls on the internet.””
maybe she communicates with ghosts on the internet. ‘
aside from ghosts, no one on the internet, making phone calls, sending texts, emails, and letters is a disembodied soul.
we are all sentient beings with flesh and bone. making contact with each other through the marvels of technology.
for better and for worse. like everything in life.
“I’m trying to make sense of it …“ ……..in the floating world of disembodied souls on the internet.””
this ‘disembodied souls on the internet’ thing is simply self-indulgent writing.
the product of someone who records their thoughts & takes them [and themselves] too seriously, and who is unaware of the logic and clarity meter that could be used for the sake of excellence and the reader.
but i don’t think excellence or clarity was the objective, but rather marketing shenanigans as she tries to sell her brand:
scaring her readers with a vague sense of a dire problem they have which she just invented, so that she can be the one with the answer.
just like Minute Rice (so you don’t have to be like those other female failures with their embarrassing problem of rice that isn’t separate)
Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 1 Peter 5:8
Interesting you should post this….. I have been thinking/reflecting on the pasT OP’s, and our pastor had a message that included an aspect of the great commission is not just “telling the Gospel, and what we “don’t do”, but what we positively do.”
So many of the OPs on TWW are not just about the “bad behavior” of various “leaders”, but the “protection/justification” of the bad behavior, at the expense of the VICTIM. This is an antithesis of how Christ says we should behave.. Maybe if the person of this OP would focus on helping others, she might be less “concerned” about stan attacking her?
As in Empathy?
I was thirsty and you gave me water, hungry and you fed me, naked and you clothed me. What you do to the least of these you do to me.
Jesus. Our Lord and Saviour.
And those who don’t get it, Jesus will one day declare as not his followers. Rude awakening.
Plenty of so-called Christian ministries put out their message over the airwaves to collect $$$ for their cause.
Distance and virtual doesn’t hinder their money collection.
We are seeing these kinds of comments on the Web because your efforts (and the work of compatriots such as Julie Roys, Rachel Denhollander and others) are hitting these issues squarely. Hard Right Evangelicals correctly see their patriarchy project as being at great risk in this age of women’s empowerment with large cracks showing in its foundations. As the now discarded Ronnie Floyd noted, “we’ve lost the women, we’ve lost the youth, we can’t lose the base” [of white males]. Dillehay is writing not to women, who can see through her nonsense immediately, but to their conservative, patriarchal husbands to whom she asks to shut down their wives’ Internet connections. I can imagine a thousand Baptist pastors walking in to their wives and pulling the modem plug or installing control software on their computers “to keep Satan out of our home”. Yeah, right.
***Your adversary the devil prowls around the internet like a virtual roaring lion, seeking disembodied souls to devour.***
There! Fixed it for ya!
From Tilly Dillehay’s article How the Rod Can Point Children to God: We’re ambassadors to our kids. Ambassadors of grace, of love, of joy, of order. We’re ambassadors of God’s own heart. And in order to show the Lord to our kids, we must be willing to love them as he loves us. While we have no guaranteed outcomes about the hearts of our kids when we discipline them, we do have clear promises about God’s discipline of us: “For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it” (Heb. 12:11).
So the parent stands in the place of God to their children? Is a person to assume God uses a rod to physically discipline children? And no matter how the parent physically disciplines their child, or on how extreme the physical discipline might get, is a person to assume this would be how God loves a child? And somehow, this is going to point or lead a child to God? And this will teach the child grace, love, and joy?
And her concluding sentence might be re-written: “I’m only doing this because I love you.”
This whole expression of faith needs to be set off!! What a mess!! I feel so sorry for those poor souls, particularly the women and children, who have become entangled in this web.
Which translates to “I’m only abusing you because I’m sick after consuming rotten theology.”
Savior today … Judge tomorrow. Your choice.
Nah, just the usual New Calvinist purgatory.
I wonder if people are ever taught that this might be read in more than one way….and that a person needs (or people need, or a people needs) to be careful on how they respond.
Is the reference purely to a physical thirst and / or hunger? Is the reference purely to a spiritual thirst and / or hunger? Is the reference to a combination of physical and spiritual thirst and / or hunger? And are people taught the reference might, in any number of ways, and for any number of reasons, be used to manipulate?
I always love it when things like this are couched in a church with “grace” in the title . . .
I have seriously limited understanding of sheep. In searches of sites about herding sheep, the rod is not described as something the shepherd uses to hit the sheep. The shepherd might throw it toward a predator to scare it away. If part of the herd is heading in the wrong direction, the shepherd can also throw the rod wide of them, to startle them into rejoining the other sheep.
These folks never talk about the staff. The shepherd’s staff, or crook, can be used to hook around the neck of a sheep, raise its head, and guide it back to the herd. The staff also serves as a walking stick, lamp holder, and something to lean on.
The traditional language in Psalm 23 is, “Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me.” I don’t know anyone who is comforted by the sight of parental weapons such as paddles, plumbing line, wooden spoons, clothes hangers, a raised hand, flying fists, and kicking feet.
To quote a little kid during a children’s sermon discussion, “You give ’em the sammich first, and after that you talk about Jesus.”
So is Miss Tilly’s post her confession that she is a disembodied soul doing Stan’s work on the internet?
Oh my Tennessee, yeah, I get where her head is. Not in this century. But some of us disembodied souls are caring for people, leading people to Christ, getting the work of the Church done on the internet because, well, covid.
So how is her disembodied ranting the work of God and the rest of us, not so much??
Regarding sheep, and what shepherds in Navajo country and Wyoming have taught me: it isn’t a tool of punishment, but can be seen as “discipline” in its truest definition: getting a stray back on the right path. Yes, newbies may be afraid that if they reach out with the crook to hook a leg and bring a sheep back from the brink of disaster they might hurt it if they hit it by accident (beat it). It won’t. Bring it back from disaster anyway.
Fits perfectly with Biblical injunctions not to spare the rod, and that the child won’t die if you “beat it.” Not whale the tar out of said child, but turn the child from disaster. It is a metaphor. Not a weapon. For crying out loud, do not fear grounding a kid, using a time out corner for a toddler, or taking the keys away from a teen. You will not kill them. Do it if they need it. Perfectly fine to offer a balanced meal with no snacks forthcoming for those that refuse to eat it. Missing one meal won’t kill them, they might learn to love a new food, or maybe they will choose to fast the lutefisk. Let them. Do not pander to them, just let them choose and live with their choices. It is how they learn.
A good shepherd is constantly aware of where the sheep are, what the hazards are, and knowing the overall dumbness of sheep knows they will have to keep the sheep safe “by hook or by crook” even if it kills them. The shepherd, that is. Not the sheep.
I am so glad I get to follow The Good Shepherd, even when the hook annoys me. He died for me, so I trust He is not about to let me wander over the cliff.
In Judaism, there is no separation between body and soul, you (generic you) can’t have one without the other, hungry is hungry, end of story.
Christianity on the other hand (for the most part) teaches sharp lines of demarcation between body, soul, and spirit.
It’s as if the New Calvinists have made a dirty word out of “grace.” Buyer beware of churches named “Grace This” and “Grace That” … grace is not always Grace.
Pastor: “What is brown and lives in a tree in the forest?”
Pastor: “What is brown, lives in a tree in the forest, and has a bushy tail?”
Pastor: “What is brown, lives in a tree in the forest, has a bushy tail, and eats acorns?”
Johnny: “Well, Pastor, I know I’m supposed to say “Jesus”, but it sure sounds like a squirrel to me!”
“To Satan, mothers represent the unrelenting multiplication of hated human images of the hated God-man who is coming soon to end his evil reign”
I’m sorry but I was under the impression that the Lord Jesus had already done this and delivered us.
Hebrews 2:14,15 – “14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage”
Or as a Scottish worthy wrote -“The prince of darkness and the king of terrors Christ repulsed before he died. They had no power over him; but by dying, by filling up and thereby blotting out the handwriting of ordinances, the charter, the dark diploma of death, he pursued the enemy, mightily entered his peculiar dominions, pressed his triumphant way to the very heart and citadel of them, overthrew inreigning righteousness the foundations of his power; and when Satan looked upon the handwriting of ordinances which condemned the children to death, after Christ’s death had been recorded there he saw that that once irrefragable document was clean obliterated—that the death it had formerly denounced amidst thunder and lightning, and the tempest, and the voice of words, was all executed, endured, and gone; that the only plea on which he had been accustomed to rest his malignant power was thus torn from his grasp; that the whole and very death by the power whereof the tyrant tyrannised, and in the face whereof the children trembled, was annihilated, while the Conqueror, who had endured all that death, was in death itself living in the power of an endless life, traversing the realms of the dead in the power of the life everlasting.”
(Hugh Martin, ‘Christ Victorious’)
Do I hear an “Amen”?
My sentiment too.
Why anyone would want Minute Rice when they can prepare and enjoy fragrant Jasmine Rice is beyond me.
I hope this mental processing makes sense…
When my oldest was 3 and my younger about 1.5, I had the realization that my (and my husband’s) relationship to them was likely the closest metaphor they would have for a relationship with God. And I thought to myself, how does the way I parent reflect how I view God to my children?
These days, there are still boundaries defining acceptable behavior and consequences for unacceptable. But there is a lot more acceptance of idiosyncrasies, patience for my fellow image-bearers, and so much less anger (on both sides of the relationship).
In the old days, what I did was more similar to Tilly’s methods (but not nearly as extreme). But no more.
Coincidentally, this happened around the same time I started reading the Bible on a daily basis, again. So, that argument doesn’t really work, Tilly.
When you (generic you) have been brought up in a particular manner and the church culture around you reinforces this manner, and it’s all you know but you realize it’s not working, it can be scary stepping into the unknown, because your children are at stake. But worth working past that fear, because your children are at stake.
This may be written by someone else above, but her conclusion sounds eerily similar to “Look what you made me do.”
Lately I have been convicted that I have been acting much more like an ambassador of the Law than an ambassador of grace to my children. It is statements like Dillehay’s, taken to heart by well-meaning parents who want to raise godly children, that lead to spiritual burnout among family members.
The disembodied souls of women talking to each other concerning things they shouldn’t worry their pretty little heads about. Like the sins of men against women and children done in secret by supposed ministers of the gospel.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
The church has a poor record of being fair and just towards women. But the powers that be don’t want that getting out.
(AN oldie but goodie: https://godaslove.wordpress.com/2015/08/04/why-im-an-advocate-for-womens-equality/
“I have to say this, um, I’m really concerned about how much time people spend on the Internet. I’m extremely concerned about it. Extremely concerned about it; here’s one thing, just even the blogs that mention Christian leaders, and I’m one of ‘em. Praise the Lord, I’ve made the Satan, Satan’s hit list now you know, but here’s what blows me away. You wouldn’t listen to gossip, but you’ll read it.” (Robert Morris)
Church leaders don’t like disembodied souls talking about them … the world might find out something they don’t like about their brand of religion, something they preach in error, something about their treatment of others, something they have hidden.
“It is fit neither for the land nor for the manure pile. So men throw it out.” (Luke 14:35)
= New Calvinist women
It’s worse than you think!!!
I went to the Diilehay blog and read a couple of posts. I’ve been a full-grown woman for a long time, yet I had no clue how totally, completely, irrevocably helpless women are. We are completely dependent on men for everything.
Women can’t jump start cars… (I‘ve done that many times…even swapped out corroded cables, etc…..was that a sin?). Women can’t put air in tires (yeah, I’ve done that, too.). A woman needs to be led everywhere by a man….. And, yes, there’s more. But, hey that’s a great thing, because it makes a man feel like a true and godly man when he has the opportunity to do all the things women cannot do because of our blatant incompetence.
Yes. This nonsense really is what they blog about.
I’m prolly committing an unforgivable sin every time I drive when hubby and I go somewhere together.
Sheesh. I’d be surprised if Miss Tilley really does blog and write the articles she takes credit for —- at that level of sheer helplessness, I doubt that she can even find a computer, let alone use one!
I wonder if she can even operate an oven or turn the thermostat down on a refrigerator without assistance from a real stud.
When my daughter was in college, she pulled over to a classmate’s car who was stranded. She retrieved jumper cables from her trunk, opened the hood on both cars, attached the cables and promptly started the engine. He was left speechless as the sinner drove away.
No, I believe this.
I wrote a few blog posts over eight years ago about a book called “The Resolution for Men” and it gives the scenario of a man falling asleep at the wheel and the woman trying to keep the car on the road from the passenger side to demonstrate what happens when men aren’t leading like they are supposed to. It’s revolting how much they want their women to be helpless and how much these women are willing to be helpless in order to be in a relationship with these fragile males.
God deliver us from the learned helplessness promoted by this bunch. I’d rather be a resourceful and capable disembodied soul than a helpless church mouse that is afraid of her own shadow.
Both my daughters are sculptors. One has her masters degree in it. The other is working on it. Besides knowing their way around a wood shop, they both weld. My older daughter loves teaching women at the university how to weld. She says that it is very empowering.
The helpless church mice are depending on you to keep gossiping on the internet! While trapped in the fowler’s snare, they need you/us as their advocate if they have any hope of deliverance. Their souls are depending on it!
no way, jesus took it even a step further.
i found at least 4 or 5 pieces written by Tilly or her husband Justing which all used the word ‘disembodied’ several times. Sometimes in a positive context, sometimes in a negative context.
i think there’s a new word to add to Bullsh|t Bingo, christian edition, cards.
Seems to me that for a soul to be “disembodied”, a body would have to be deader than a doornail.
I’m tired and am over-extended in my embodied life. I don’t do near as much of this gossiping as I used to. But I’m glad that there are those that keep doing it and I can check in to see how we have been progressing against the warped teaching that disempowers women and breeds controlling and abusive men.
How creepy is that?! These New Calvinists just get stranger as time goes on.
Amen! Many protestents are squeamish about the line in the Apostles Creed saying “He descended into hell.” But the ancient belief is he went there to destroy it, also known as the “harrowing if hell.” It is captured well in what is arguably the most famous and popular Christian sermon in history: John Chrysostom’s Pascal Sermon from the 4th century. Here is the 2nd half:
“He that was taken by death has annihilated it! He descended into hades and took hades captive! He embittered it when it tasted his flesh! And anticipating this Isaiah exclaimed, ‘Hades was embittered when it encountered thee in the lower regions.’ It was embittered, for it was abolished! It was embittered, for it was mocked! It was embittered, for it was purged! It was embittered, for it was despoiled! It was embittered, for it was bound in chains!
It took a body and, face to face, met God! It took earth and encountered heaven! It took what it saw but crumbled before what it had not seen!
“O death, where is thy sting? O hades, where is thy victory?”
Christ is risen, and you are overthrown!
Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen!
Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice!
Christ is risen, and life reigns!
Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in a tomb!
For Christ, being raised from the dead, has become the First-fruits of them that slept.
To him be glory and might unto ages of ages. Amen.”
I suppose one could argue it is so famous partly because it is so short, but it is also very good.
Winsomely disembodied in a teachable gospel saturated way for the lord’s sake?
She has a problem. She seems to see things! Disembodied usually refers to spirits or ghosts.
No one here is disembodied.
Well, about 1/3 of my senior engineering design course is women ( might be higher, have not bothered to check).. and guess what, they do just as well as the guys….. guess I have a class full of “sinners”?
well, i have a little time to kill this afternoon.
i looked up ‘disembodied’ with various different christian culture words (like TGC), and it turns out it shows up a lot. in literal ways and all kinds of abstract ways.
many articles about Dietrick Bonhoeffer contain the word ‘disembodied’.
here is how christian culture uses the word (*these are my favorites!):
*disembodied christological abstractions
disembodied seminary education
*disembodied brain of Christ
(…all in all, i think christians take themselves far, FAHR, too seriously.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“It is captured well in what is arguably the most famous and popular Christian sermon in history: John Chrysostom’s Pascal Sermon from the 4th century.”
i’m really irritated that i’ve grown up in church and never were things like this mentioned.
it’s as though christianity stopped when John put his pen down when he was done with his ‘Revelation’, and then it started back up again mid-20th century.
I wonder if one can be winsomely disembodied.
Mrs. Muff drives everywhere we go, I HATE effing DRIVING!
Ken F (aka Tweed),
And the grand irony is that hell is the first thing fundagelicals threaten you (generic you) with for not believing a certain way.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Dangit. Somebody beat me, again.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
““He that was taken by death has annihilated it! …It was embittered, for it was abolished! …
It took a body and, face to face, met God! It took earth and encountered heaven! It took what it saw but crumbled before what it had not seen!'”
i’ve tended to think time is not linear (despite linear things happening, like the 8 minutes it takes from dried pasta to soft, chewy pasta).
i tend to think the spiritual realm is outside of time (like the hereafter where my mom, mother-in-law, and grandparents are; I assume God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are there, too)
maybe it’s like this: when you get an idea and think it through from beginning to it’s logical conclusion —
like a vacation.
you lie in bed and have the idea, you start to mentally plan it all, the arrangements, the packing, the travel, the time there and all the events and activities, the re-packing, the return travel, the return home, the unpacking, climbing into one’s bed…
just where you were at the genesis of it all.
a circle, a sphere,…
it all happened both in the space of several weeks and in the space of a few minutes.
so, in a similar way, the logical conclusion of hell/evil/darkness is that it can’t survive the fact of Jesus Christ. perhaps it’s no longer a reality.
although we encounter echoes of something that’s kaput.
(i’m wondering if anyone is on my wavelength, here. i’m having pasta and water at the moment and nothing else.)
This makes me laugh.
My dad, the history buff with a blackbelt and a woodworking hobby whose man-card is so intact he boasts about having only daughters, made sure all four of us knew how to change a flat tire, jump-start a car, and put air in the tires before he’d let us go for our driver’s licenses.
Even though we always attended complementarian churches growing up, he told us quite frankly that he wanted us to be able to take care of ourselves. That way, should we choose to get married, we could do it out of choice, and not out of necessity or desperation.
It sounds like a Jeremy Bearimy kind of timeline: https://thegoodplace.fandom.com/wiki/Jeremy_Bearimy_Timeline
…men who neither want nor need the women in their lives to be beholden to men.
The infantilizing codependency of men who need to be #1 and their women who need to be their fangirls … no thanks.
It’s a choice. Some choose that route. Frankly, I don’t see this anywhere in the life and ministry of Jesus. The theology behind this codependency is contrived myth.
That’s pretty close to the EO view of heaven and hell:
I feel the same way. My protestant upbringing taught me a thin slice as if it were the whole thing. Early Christianity actually allowed a lot of leeway an anything not addressed in the Nicene Creed. The Creed served as guardrails, with a lot of room to maneuver between the rails. Protestants tend to squeeze the rails together too tightly.
Is that like online courses?
I added check the oil.
While a lot of them live like hell during the week.
Which made it easier to control the masses.
Like a rock star going through groupie after groupie after groupie.
Chesterton used the image of a large mesa where the Church/Creed has fenced off the surrounding cliffs. Within those fences there was a large area with a lot of variety (just don’t climb over the fences to the cliffs). And that if the fences were removed, everyone would clump together in the middle out of fear of the cliffs.
If I remember right, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine talked a lot about “Linear Time” vs “Non-Linear Time”.
I’ve wondered what would happen if they could NOT mention Hell for a month.
Would we see their heads exploding?
DILBERT: What was thet noise?
DOGBERT: A paradigm shifting without a clutch.
When OUR Founder (Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russel, Sun Myung Moon, David Koresh, Jim Jones, Mo David, Hal Lindsay, Doug Wilson, Head Apostle Mahaney, Deep Throat Driscoll, Pious Piper, Our Pastor-Superapostle) was Anointed by GOD to Restore The Original New Testament TRUE Church…
I mean, really.
The exact same mythic view of church history (or lack of it) as the Mormons, Moonies, and JWs.
Some pasta remains linear during and after cooking. Spaghetti, not so much.
Great word picture. How many protestants even knkw about the Nicene creed. That fence was pretty much removed, and replaced by ever more restrictive statements of faith and distinctives.
Or for not being predestined a certain way in eternity past…
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Thankfully there is some good work being done among Protestants to advocate for a greater understanding and fellowship with the Early Church. It seems that “Theological Retrieval” is being discussed by clergy from a variety of backgrounds.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Like I said, clumping together in the middle, walling themselves off from fear of the cliffs.
Like that 2004 Shymalan movie that used to be cited a lot here, The Village.
How does one find people like that? I am continuously amazed at how bad evangelicals are at basic fact checking. For example, for reformatuon day there is a quote going around crediting Martin Luther with the five solas. But that catchy phrase is a 20th century invention never articulated by the reformers. But don’t be stupid enough to correct them… It won’t turn out well…
Knew I was forgetting something!
Oh yeah, and don’t forget to check the blinker fluid! 🙂
Ken F (aka Tweed),
No kidding (to all of what you said) – http://www.credomag.com is a great start. The list of fellows is a nice mixture of men and women across many different denominations.
Regarding the Five Solas, I just listened to a LCMS podcast discussing SDG. It seems that was better articulated by the Reformed crowd than Lutheran/Melanchthon, though JS Bach made it a centerpiece of his compositions. That is not to say that Luther/Melanchthon did not imply SDG, they simply did not articulate it as such.
I just re-looked at the list. I think their fellows may have changed recently (for instance, I thought KSP was one but do not see her listed).
He’s SOOOOOOOOO SPESHUL, Isn’t He?
SOOOOOO Godly and SOOOOO Christian that Satan himself singles him out for Speshul Attention.
In FRP gaming, I’ve always had a soft spot for “Rescue the Damsel in Distress” scenarios.
The difference is, I KNOW it’s a Theatrical Convention, a storytelling trope, a Shtick.
THESE MANLY-MAN CHRISTIANS DON’T!
(Some Gift of Discernment…)
And speaking of “disembodied souls”, ISN’T A DISEMBODIED SOUL IN FLUFFY CLOUD HEAVEN (like a Shade in Hades) WHAT THESE GUYS ASPIRE TO BECOME? FOREVER?
Thanks. I’ve heard of that site but have not followed it. I’ll give it a look. For getting perspectives from patristics, EO sites tend to have lots of quotes from early Christians because they place huge emphasis on the consensus of the “Holy Fathers.” I don’t always agree with or like their views, but I like how they challenge my thinking.
I’ve found the same thing with Catholic thinkers, usually Jesuits.
Fundagelicalism is not about thinking, it’s about fear of hell and obeying.
Thank you for your reply and explanation, Friend. In the times I attended church, I can only remember one instance when there was a bit of an explanation about the rod and the staff….and that was only a few years ago in the non-denominational charismatic church I attended for a short time. And I probably haven’t seen an extensive number of examples of shepherds (whether in books, paintings, sculpture, etc.)….and in the examples I’ve seen, the majority of examples I remember were showing the shepherd holding / carrying / walking with the staff somewhat like a walking stick….on the rare occasion the shepherd was using the hook on the staff to rescues sheep.
For whatever reason (maybe spiritual abuse related?), I never thought of researching the subject myself….and I tend to like doing research.
And not intending to sound defensive or cause you any offense, Friend. I’m merely puzzled and trying to puzzle something out. You quoted the phrase from Psalm 23 “Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me.”. Although I’ve heard and read this quoted many times over my lifetime, I don’t remember finding it comforting….but maybe that’s because I lack the understanding of the correct use of the rod and the staff (whether mentioned in the context of a shepherd or the Shepherd).
Thanks for raising this. The parents who think God demands use of the rod quote Proverbs 13:24, “He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes” and 23:13, “Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die”(KJV).
Psalm 23 is apparently about a shepherd caring for sheep, protecting them. “Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies. Thou anointest my head with oil. My cup runneth over.”
I don’t know if the Hebrew word for “rod” is the same in both books of the Bible. This might be a case of the KJV language confusing lots of people, including me. I did find one site that says the word in Proverbs is the Hebrew term for “scepter,” which I don’t think a shepherd would carry… but a scepter is also not a traditional tool for spanking.
Wish I could look this up, but unfortunately I need to run errands in real life right now. Maybe somebody else knows?
Thank you for ^That, Muff Potter. What you wrote got me thinking….
I realize I’m making generalizations, and that most of my experiences have not been good….and I’m not intending to cause anyone any offense. In my experience, I’ve found many Christians, medical doctors, counsellors, different kinds of therapists, etc., don’t consider the whole person (mental, physical, emotional, spiritual)….their thinking has tended to be somewhat like the saying “When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.”. And that kind of tunnel vision has frustrated me for a very long time….
Yes, Wild Honey, you’re mental processing made sense to me. 🙂 And thank you for taking the time to write it down in a reply to me.
Thank you for the link, Max. 🙂
For some reason, I feel particularly disembodied this morning. So watch out … I might get out of control on my comments! (perhaps it’s the time change)
Maybe you should lay off of the decaf and go full octane.
What I found when i looked at Credo is it is very much Calvinist
So much so that they show Tim Challies’ endorsement in the about page.
Oh, no doubt about it. Their magazine team is a Who’s Who of Calvinism in America; their “credo” is definitely reformed. They’ve even provided a platform for such NeoCal bad boys as Mark Driscoll and James MacDonald!
That is a good observation. Challies aside, I don’t think they are “new” Calvinists (YRR) but many are the more traditional Reformed.
Another site I like is 1517.org – confessional Lutheran, not Reformed.
Like “People’s” or “Democratic” in the name of a Third World country.
“The more adjectives about Democracy in a country’s official name, the nastier a Dictatorship it is.”
— TV Tropes
I have long maintained that Christianity NEEDS a transfusion of Jewish attitudes. The earthiness, the emphasis on here-and-now, on living your life, on Tikkun Olam, the sense of humor, the respect for learning and the arts…
Yes, I would put most of them as “classical” Calvinists … “Old” Calvinists as opposed to “New” Calvinists. They are not as radical, militant and aggressive as the NeoCals and typically more civil in their discourse and respectful of other expressions of Christian faith. Within SBC, the “Old” (Founders Ministries) might not agree with the message and method of the “New”, but they have tolerated the NeoCals in order to accomplish a common mission … Calvinization of the largest non-Calvinist Protestant denomination in America.
“TODAY THE SBC, TOMORROW THE WORLD!“?
One of his favorite ways to seed this destructive question in our day is through social media and podcasts. The Internet is a new way that women, even those working at home, can regularly access a steady stream of advice, solicited and unsolicited. Our friends offer advice on how to deal with husbands and children. Images, shows, and books offer advice on what is good and beautiful, what can be expected (or demanded) out of life. Women, who love to give and seek advice, have a daily choice to make about what advice we look for, what we listen to, and what voices influence our daily decisions.