The ARC Takes on Luke MacDonald’s (James’ Son) Church While Planning on Treating the Sex Abuse and Mental Health Problems of Pastors

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“I do respect people’s faith, but I don’t respect their manipulation of that faith in order to create fear and control. ” Javier Bardem


I don’t understand why the ARC leadership continues to get it so wrong. Could it be that they believe that forgiveness means that every guy who decides to mess around with employees or congregants is automatically forgiven? Do they believe that they can *cure* them of such behavior? Just like their belief that flowers don’t grow where demons tread, do they believe any guy who comes bearing roses and promises is an angel? I don’t know. Take a look at their latest hire.

Luke MacDonald, James’ boy who allegedly urinated in a meeting, is now the latest new hire of the ARC.

I’m sure this one is going to go well.  Let me start by saying that if you read one thing, read this next sentence. Luke MacDonald, in my opinion, doesn’t belong anywhere near a pulpit. (In case you want to know what I keep saying “In my opinion” think lawyers. It is merely my opinion not a statement of fact…) For those of you who are interested in MacDonald’s history of urinating during a meeting, read Julie Roys post Former Harvest Members Alarmed by Return of Luke MacDonald; Warn of Bullying & Bizarre Behavior

They recount bizarre stories of Luke MacDonald urinating in meetings, throwing chairs in a rage, and failing to report abuse of a minor in Harvest’s youth ministry.

…George said the meeting took place in Luke MacDonald’s office as Luke sat behind his desk and George was seated on the opposite side. George said that while MacDonald was explaining to George that he was going to get the position, MacDonald took a cup off the top of his desk. Then, George said he heard what sounded like MacDonald urinating in the cup.

“I asked him, ‘Are you peeing in that cup?’ To which he said, ‘Yeah,’ pretty nonchalantly, and moved on as if it wasn’t an issue,” George recounted.

George said MacDonald then put the cup of urine on his desk and commented that he could make George do anything he wanted George to do. George said he responded by saying “no” and laughing nervously.

George said he did not get the full-time position, and soon afterwards, he was fired from his part-time position, as well.

There’s more, much more. Needless to say, I am not impressed whatsoever.

I agree with Julie. This appears to be a strange system of accountability that, in my opinion, will lead to problems with the hiring of MacDonald. Given his history, there are bound to be problems.

The ARC is going to treat pastors who have sexual abuse and mental health problems. Why? Because they can and will do it with the tithes of their people.

Let’s start off at the very beginning with the big applause for Pastor Dino who appears to be now involved in two lawsuits for covering up sex abuse. (See Wednesday’s post.) YEP. LET’S GIVE IT UP FOR DINO!!!!!

Forget about the victims. And good buddy, Dino, is going to help Hodges cut down on all of the sex abuse in the ARC! Think I’m kidding? The video below will help me make my case.

The Zechariah fallacy

Let’s start with this premise that Hodges repeats through this video which is from Zechariah 13:7 NIV.

“Awake, sword,against my shepherd,
against the man who is close to me!”
declares the Lord Almighty.
“Strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered,
and I will turn my hand against the little ones.

He claims this is what happens to the poor members of churches when Satan, who is in a spiritual battle against the pastors, wins. The poor, stupid sheep scatters away from the church. Therefore, Hodges has to focus on the pastors to prevent this from happening. Except, read the commentaries. Here is just one from the Geneva Study Bible.

The Prophet warns the Jews, that before this great comfort under Christ would come, there would be a horrible dissipation among the people: for their governors and pastors would be destroyed, and the people would be as scattered sheep. And the evangelist applies this to Christ because he was the head of all pastors;

“The Shepherd” is a foretelling of Jesus. It is a prophecy of what was going to happen to the Jewish kings and rulers, as well as the people. They would scatter until the day Jesus comes and calls His little ones to Him. I don’t care how good the pastors of the ARC are. They are not Jesus.

Lots of immoral failings of pastors in the ARC (His words, not mine.) Good night! That many?

Head to video mark 13:25 (I listen so you don’t have to 🙂 ) Here is an approximation of what Hodges said.

Dino (!) and I right now are in the middle of 20 pastors’ moral failings and restoration. I feel like I’m seeing 3 of these a month. We need to prevent the house from burning down.

The solution? Hodges and Dino are going to build a lodge on the grounds of the Church of the Highlands for these pastors to come to for “treatment.”

Head to video mark 33.57-again approximate quote

We have committed $4 million to build this lodge. Dino and I are going to get these pastors counseling, help with finances, etc.

So guess where that money is going to come from? All those poor sheep who will scatter unless they have a shepherd. Except they already have one and Hodges forgot to mention that to them. Jesus is their shepherd. He will never be struck down and will guide his sheep safely home. It is hard for me to not think that the ARC leadership is manipulating their followers.

I predict there will be more stories to come and more posts to follow.

Comments

The ARC Takes on Luke MacDonald’s (James’ Son) Church While Planning on Treating the Sex Abuse and Mental Health Problems of Pastors — 80 Comments

  1. “Luke MacDonald, James’ boy who allegedly urinated in a meeting, is now the latest new hire of the ARC.”

    You can’t make this stuff up! When will this madness end?!

  2. “Shame on you ARC for allowing this to happen.”

    And shame on anyone who attends the church and donates money.

  3. ARC is not qualified to offer this treatment. Period, end of story. I’m also thinking (and maybe it will warn Chris Hodges and Dino Rizzo off) that offering treatment for pastors who are likely in serious trouble verging on or crossing over to actual criminality could leave ARC and Hodges’ church open for lawsuits.

    I’m just going to drop this article about the Servants of the Paraclete in New Mexico, where pedo Catholic priests were offloaded. People who are in ARC-sponsored churches or go to COTH really really need to read this article, because I’m thinking this is what Hodges and Rizzo is buying.

    https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/in-new-mexico-shadows-of-a-former-haven-for-troubled-priests/article_5cc9f68a-9c60-11eb-bc85-432a7bf03f2e.html

  4. From the OP: I listen so you don’t have to 🙂

    Thank you for ^That, Dee. 🙂 I only managed to watch the first few minutes of the video….to me, Chris Hodges comes across as fake.

    (I can usually manage to tolerate shorter snippets of these kinds of videos or podcasts, but not the longer ones….I’d rather read the transcripts (and reading transcripts has both advantages and disadvantages)).

  5. researcher: the video

    The speech presents as the infantilizing, condescending, and patronizing talk of a narcissistic leader, IMHO.

    Narcissistic leaders infantilize fellow adults as a maneuver of power and control. It’s the setup of a cult like that of Keith Ranier or Scientology or dare one say: Evangelical cults. Is the ARC a network of infantilizing cults? Just asking …

    Adult church participants are not children to be manipulated and controlled and infantilized.

    As a child of God, an adult is NEVER a child of another person.

    Thriving in and walking in the Holy Spirit of our Creator God are adults who live in love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control. NOT adults infantilized by a speechmaker like this guy with his flatscreen and Bible verses.

    The goal of his infantilizing speech is for the infantilized churchcult members to finance the infantilized churchcult leaders. The leaders “got caught up in” immorality, and possibly unlawful predation because infantilized leaders can’t control themselves.

    Truth, these are all adults. Infantilizing creates a cult.

  6. Muslin fka Dee Holmes: this article about the Servants of the Paraclete in New Mexico, where pedo Catholic priests were offloaded. People who are in ARC-sponsored churches or go to COTH really really need to read this article, because I’m thinking this is what Hodges and Rizzo is buying.

    https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/in-new-mexico-shadows-of-a-former-haven-for-troubled-priests/article_5cc9f68a-9c60-11eb-bc85-432a7bf03f2e.html

    And reading books written by or about people who were victims of predator priests that went through and / or stayed at the Servants of the Paraclete might be something else to add to their reading list.

    (One of the books I read about the Servants of the Paraclete definitely backs of Muslin fka Dee Holmes use of the word “offloading”….Servants of the Paraclete is a misnomer.)

  7. Ava Aaronson: Truth, these are all adults. Infantilizing creates a cult

    I have had a number of people who were part of this contact me. I have made it a priority to keep up with the ARC because they have some bizarre pastors like Robert Morris who attracts 20-30,000 people.

  8. It never fails to amaze me that a person can be effectively shunned from these communities for asking normal, healthy questions – but sexually assaulting a congregant or molesting a child is fine. They definitely won’t shun a person for that and instead trip over themselves to accommodate the person and give them more job opportunities and benefits.

    I don’t know a lot about ARC but it looks like they just had a major annual conference this past week? It looks like Christine Caine spoke at it.

  9. dee: It’s incomprehensible to me.

    I suppose we should give Luke MacDonald the benefit of the doubt. Just because his Dad messed up big time doesn’t necessarily mean he inherited the old man’s mean streak. After all, Scripture says “The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son …” (Ezekiel 18:20). However, the passage goes on to say “… the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.”

    “Urinating in meetings, throwing chairs in a rage, and failing to report abuse of a minor in Harvest’s youth ministry” are not “righteousness of the righteous” behavior. I sure hope the younger MacDonald grew up a bit before taking to the pulpit … but the wickedness he allegedly displayed in the above quote were things he did in a ministry!

    I’m afraid many have found Christian “ministry” in America to be an easy job, a trusted cover for misbehaving behind the curtain, a prosperous avenue to a healthy bank account. They are among the folks that Jesus talks about in Matthew 7 (“I never knew you”). I repeat: when will this madness end?!

  10. dee: And they are donating lots of money.

    Supporting church planting organizations was once a more genuine avenue for directing one’s hard earned dollars to spread the Gospel. I’m not sure what we are planting/spreading in some of these groups now. It is clear that some church planting programs, such as Acts29 and SBC, are all about planting reformed theology, not Gospel churches (unless you believe that Calvinism = Gospel, which 90+% Christendom worldwide does not).

  11. researcher: comes across as fake

    With a touch of charisma, gift of gab, working knowledge of the Bible, and a bag of gimmicks … you, too, could be a successful “lead pastor” in mega-mania.

  12. Off topic prayer request: we have an older, with many comorbidities, extended family member sick with covid. Sounds like needs hospitalization but no rooms available to transfer to, local hospital full. At home oxygen, due for regeneron today. This person is strongly convinced covid is a hoax and was not vaxxed. That is complicating treatment. Please pray for the patient AND the family. Patient has been providing family members with free daycare, many children exposed also.

  13. dee: Thank you! I have heard about this place and have not gotten around to reading about it.

    Well, in light of Chris Hodges and Dino Rizzo wanting to open up a retreat/rehab for pastors, I think it’s important to know about Servants of the Paraclete, because it turned into an absolute mess. The article I posted is from April 2021. Apparently the lawsuits started in the early 1990s, *before* the Boston pedo priest scandal exploded with the Spotlight investigation.

  14. I wish we could have a discussion of the ARC funding model. I believe the way it works is that if ARC approves a person to plant a church, ARC will provide some seed money and then the church, once established (and I’m sure there’s a timeline) has to pay into ARC. In loan sharking, this is known as “the vig” — cash paid back as interest on a loan. I am NOT saying that ARC is a loan sharking operation, not at all. What I’m saying is that it appears to me established churches are (oh, let’s use a churchy word) TITHING back to the mothership to permit the spread of the ARC model.

    Oh, and not all ARC plants succeed. I’m aware of an ARC plant in the southeast Valley here in Phoenix that failed and the pastor went back to (I think) Stockton, California.

  15. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    Here are some things I have read, especially at Leon Podles’ site: in 1981 the public scandal was big in the Fall River area, to where a known but not yet convicted murderer (John Feit) that had got a job at the Paracletes had deployed one of his customers.

    To some authorities, “breaking scandals” don’t matter, or are considered a bonus (designer melodrama, “God’s swill” to prove we are immanent or something like that).

  16. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: In loan sharking, this is known as “the vig” — cash paid back as interest on a loan. I am NOT saying that ARC is a loan sharking operation,

    Saying that it’s not (loan sharking) would be like saying that Nicky Santoro never worked for the ‘bosses’ back home, during all time he plied his trade in Vegas…

  17. Max,

    Need one more qualification: The working knowledge of how to strike holy fear into people’s heart to fear/respect you.

  18. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: ARC funding model

    On the org site, “About”, the history is a business rainmaker (finance) and a couple of franchise wannabes (“pastors”) to orchestrate the startups (plants).

    In our area, there are ARC plants and joiner churches – some with satellites, listed in the ARC church locator.

    So how and why does a local church happen? A charismatic leader appears, drawing bods and bucks, enough to support local staff and the umbrella org dues? Then business as usual?

    Once the local church is up and running in the org fold, how are bridges and boundaries built and maintained? What makes church the place to be, that is, healthy, nurturing and safe? Scanning the NT for role models here …

    Do they even teach church healthy social protocols in seminaries, or wherever the church leaders, elders, and overseers are trained? (Hopefully there’s training.)

    The church leader peeing in his coffee mug at his desk during meetings … does seminary OK this etiquette? Not sure it would fly in a normal workplace. The mug urinator, not the witness, would be the one unemployed, normally. In a normal workplace, that is.

  19. Sowre-Sweet Dayes: Need one more qualification: The working knowledge of how to strike holy fear into people’s heart to fear/respect you.

    That’s included in the basic tool kit of a narcissist long before they choose ministry as a career track. The Wartburg Watch has reported on many such characters; they can be found in both mega and mini ministries across America.

  20. Max: Sowre-Sweet Dayes: Need one more qualification: The working knowledge of how to strike holy fear into people’s heart to fear/respect you.

    That’s included in the basic tool kit of a narcissist long before they choose ministry as a career track. The Wartburg Watch has reported on many such characters; they can be found in both mega and mini ministries across America.

    As one of them recently said “I know myself, I’m not changing” (Tim Armstrong)

  21. Sowre-Sweet Dayes: The working knowledge of how to strike holy fear into people’s heart to fear/respect you.

    “FEAR ALWAYS WORKS!”
    – Acting Mayor Bellether, Zootopia

  22. Max: As one of them recently said “I know myself, I’m not changing” (Tim Armstrong)

    Because when you are already Perfect In Every Way, any change at all will introduce Imperfection.
    i.e. Any change at all will be For the Worse.

  23. The opening quote: “I do respect people’s faith, but I don’t respect their manipulation of that faith in order to create fear and control.” Javier Bardem

    “When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?” (Luke 18:8) … or just churches full of folks using a counterfeit faith?

  24. Old Timer:
    Oh ick. I keep thinking it can’t get any worse, and it does.

    I wonder how bad it will get.

    A sobering verse this is:

    Eccl 1:9 History merely repeats itself. It has all been done before. Nothing under the sun is truly new. (NLT)

  25. linda,

    Linda, I’m so sorry your family is going through this, and will pray about the changing situation. I hope your relative cooperates with the Regeneron monoclonal antibody treatment, which does help if given early. The relative’s household and carers need to protect themselves: masks, distancing, ample ventilation, testing, etc. If people do this calmly, the patient might also be calm.

    (Topics for family to think about, but maybe not discuss today: everyone over age 12 who has been in contact with this patient should be vaccinated, and parents should give some thought to their free day care. I’m not sure how long immunity lasts after Regeneron, but unvaccinated people who get covid have low covid immunity after just a few months.)

  26. linda,

    Linda, I prayed just now for your family member sick with Covid and for others exposed. May health and wisdom prevail in this situation.

  27. Max: allegedly urinated in a meeting, is now the latest new hire

    When we volunteered with a youth sports league, one coach was a screamer and all-around maniac. We asked the commissioner why they didn’t get rid of the guy. Answer: “Show some compassion! He doesn’t have much else in his life. Besides, it’s hard to get people to coach.”

    It’s also hard to attract good people when Coach cusses out 7-year-olds. Good families refused to let their kids play for this coach. Good coaches didn’t like being associated with him. Other adults and kids learned they could get away with amazingly bad behavior. His teams ended up having obnoxious, threatening parents, as well as vulnerable kids with trusting or apathetic parents.

    I am, ahem, pleased to say that Coach Nutcase eventually took things too far and was banned from coaching, not just in our program, but in a rather vast region.

    Organizations that promote and celebrate obnoxious, unhinged people will get more and more terrible over time.

  28. Old Timer: I keep thinking it can’t get any worse, and it does.

    With each new generation comes a new wave of ignorance at various levels, including a spiritual lack of knowledge which opens the church to ministers and ministries which are not of God. A prayerless people are powerless against the “wiles of the devil” (Ephesians 6:11-13).

  29. Friend: I am, ahem, pleased to say that Coach Nutcase eventually took things too far and was banned from coaching, not just in our program, but in a rather vast region.

    Organizations that promote and celebrate obnoxious, unhinged people will get more and more terrible over time.

    After awhile, most organizations take on the personality of its leadership. There are many churches in America with “Pastor Nutcase” in the pulpit. Why are they there? … evidently, the pew loves to have it so:

    “The prophets prophesy falsely,
    And the priests rule on their own authority;
    And My people love to have it so!
    But what will you do when the end comes?”
    (Jeremiah 5:31)

    TWW is doing its part to inform and warn the Body of Christ about “obnoxious, unhinged” church leaders. Unfortunately, too many churchgoers seem to like church wild and crazy, with “Pastor Nutcase” at the helm … it makes them feel better about themselves.

  30. Friend: Organizations that promote and celebrate obnoxious, unhinged people will get more and more terrible over time.

    They all find each other.

    Like attracts like.

    Wise to steer clear.

  31. Ava Aaronson: Like attracts like.

    There wouldn’t be so many wackos in the pulpit if it weren’t for enough wackos in the pew financing them. Pulpit actors would have no stage if it weren’t for a gullible audience willing to buy tickets to their show.

  32. Max: There wouldn’t be so many wackos in the pulpit if it weren’t for enough wackos in the pew financing them.Pulpit actors would have no stage if it weren’t for a gullible audience willing to buy tickets to their show.

    Max, you may not think of yourself as a preacher, but I find your posts one of the last bastions of old time SBC preaching, before the wackos in both pulpit and pew became so numerous! Keep saying it like it is!

  33. Friend: I’m not sure how long immunity lasts after Regeneron,

    Those who get Monoclonal Antibody infusion have to wait 90 days before the start of getting vaccinated because the Antibodies are likely to interfere with immune response. But they wear off, also!

  34. dee:
    Todd Wilhelm,

    And they are donating lots of money.

    Oh My! Maybe they should follow the example of Pastor Roland, who wants to donate $2000 to needy souls— like Me! He keeps texting me:
    “ 1 of 5 FRM:RS Baptist Church.
    SUBJ:DONATION
    MSG:I’m Pastor Roland, one of the ministers in RS Baptist Church, Who is responsible for supporting (Con’t) 2 of 5the needy who are genuinely in a financial predicament due to the pandemic and recent disaster with the sum $2,000. If you happen to (Con’t) 3 of 5 be one among those going through financial predicament due to the recent disasters, kindly provide us with the following details to (Con’t) 4 of 5 know you more.
    Name:-Pastor John Age:-75
    Profession:-Pastor Emeritus
    City:-Minneapolis State:-MN
    Mobile number:-612-5555555
    Note:- Not everyone is eligible for the
    (Con’t) 5 of 5 donation. Stay Blessed. Pastor Roland
    RS Baptist Church. (End)”
    I try to tell him I’m doing ok, with a modest retirement from the BBC and some book royalties, and in a pinch I could borrow from Abraham (he’s rich as Croesus) but Pastor Roland keeps insisting (maybe because I’m a fellow Baptist).

  35. linda: Max, you may not think of yourself as a preacher … one of the last bastions of old time SBC preaching … Keep saying it like it is!

    Linda, I did some lay-preaching in SBC ranks, as well as a long-time Bible teacher (Sunday School, training union, workshops). I exited SBC when the new wave of Southern Baptists no longer wanted to hear what I had to say – they don’t like it like it is.

  36. Ex SBC SS teacher and Mission Friends leader here. Left when Jesus was no longer the final arbiter of the Bible, but just “timeless truths.” Also around that time changes in the little book “What Baptists Believe” astounded me. Herschel Hobbs was out, and the new version was distinctly unBaptist.

    My husband found the last straw was the preacher telling us his job was to listen to and follow God, and our job was to listen to and follow the preacher.

    Not.

  37. linda: Left when Jesus was no longer the final arbiter of the Bible, but just “timeless truths.”

    The authority and influence of Jesus is waning in the American church; it’s not only an SBC problem. The new reformers hardly ever talk about Jesus or the Holy Spirit … it’s all about “God” (and Piper, of course).

  38. linda: My husband found the last straw was the preacher telling us his job was to listen to and follow God, and our job was to listen to and follow the preacher.

    A lot of churchgoers have ended up off the track believing that nonsense! That’s exactly why the New Calvinists tossed out long-standing Baptist doctrines of “soul competency” and “priesthood of ‘the’ believer” when they took over the SBC … they don’t want the pew seeking God and listening to Him … they want everything to be filtered through the pulpit … dangerous spiritually to be hanging out in such places.

  39. readingalong: Those who get Monoclonal Antibody infusion have to wait 90 days before the start of getting vaccinated because the Antibodies are likely to interfere with immune response. But they wear off, also!

    Good information, thanks! It’s great that so much research is going on around the world, so patients can get sound help. Regeneron is still in short supply but so valuable. I’ve read that the new Merck antiviral capsule, molnupiravir, might be approved next month.

  40. linda: My husband found the last straw was the preacher telling us his job was to listen to and follow God, and our job was to listen to and follow the preacher.

    Not.

    How ’bout the pastor getting a real job like your husband, and everyone listens to & obeys God. Cut out $$$ing & kowtowing to the middleman. Jesus cut out the middleman 2K years ago.

    No-middleman Faith, as recommended in the book of Hebrews, Bible.

  41. Blog headline:

    “The ARC Takes on Luke MacDonald’s (James’ Son) Church While Planning on Treating the Sex Abuse and Mental Health Problems of Pastors

    The vast majority of churches (from what I’ve seen from reading online news reports and what members say and from having been a visitor to churches myself)
    cannot help lay persons (the ‘pew potatoes’) with “sex abuse” issues or “mental health problems” (or being in domestic violence situations – or 50 billion other situations out there),
    so what, other than hurbris, makes this particular church group think they can successfully treat or help preachers with any of these problems?

    LOL!

    I some times feel as though I need a t-shirt that says something like,
    “I survived Christian culture and really bad theology, and all I have to show for it is this stupid shirt!”

  42. Daisy: what, other than hubris, makes this particular church group think they can successfully treat or help preachers with any of these problems?

    Beyond hubris is the $$$ involved in paying for real experts & the money grab from a church “expert” claiming to have expertise that they simply don’t have.

    Historically, there were villages in our world where local snake oil salesmen declared themselves experts in dealing with disease & every other challenge known to humankind. Casting spells, mixing potions, repeating mantras.

    This hubris, money grab, & unwillingness to engage scientific experts brings to mind that historical situation, except this is 2021 in the USA. No excuse to fall under this spell, but people do. God help us all.

  43. Max,

    For one thing do you see pastors mix? The model for us is that we are not supposed to bear wholesome company to the depressed. If we are a bit naive, can he not reciprocate and give us frank guidance how to help? As for “sex abuse” issues this has already been commented on. If they didn’t project the image of “a pastor for ever after the order of Gobbledigook” these things however grave would seem less of a letdown surely? Ephesians 5 lists pastoring as a distributed gift alongside others, not an elite job.

    Max: and Piper

    I saw people get pie eyed about the Pied. First they walked out, then the place they walked out from fell apart (for everybody).

  44. Ava Aaronson: How ’bout the pastor getting a real job like your husband, and everyone listens to & obeys God. Cut out $$$ing & kowtowing to the middleman. Jesus cut out the middleman 2K years ago.
    We agree! We moved on. And while we did find other churches that were healthier, the pandemic has given us a chance (excuse?? lol) to continue the worship at home routine longer than younger, healthier folks may choose. Not sure what we will do when the pandemic passes. Our area is still hit quite hard so we have time to decide.

    No-middleman Faith, as recommended in the book of Hebrews, Bible.

  45. Ok either fat fingered something or my computer is still nuts following last night’s storms.

    But for the record: we left the SBC long ago. Tried visiting two here, froze out of one and sit was “fake Baptist” and the second one is pretty much doing the same stuff as all the hypercharismatics are doing. Got tired of the preacher endlessly, every sermon, saying we were all too well behaved. Truth was the people just were not going along as he and the music leader tried to manipulate crowd emotions.

    Yuck. We found another place to worship, but the pandemic stress has shall we say shown some serious cracks in that church’s foundation. Still praying. For me I think a good SS, if I can find one, when it is safe to go out and about more, will be about it.

    But we are enjoying a good season of revival in our own souls, enjoying zoom and online SS and churches. Yesterday we worshipped with a small group of PBU in eastern Tennessee. Always wanted to do that, never could find one when we travelled there.

  46. Ava Aaronson: Historically, there were villages in our world where local snake oil salesmen declared themselves experts in dealing with disease & every other challenge known to humankind. Casting spells, mixing potions, repeating mantras.

    “Just like Witcchraft, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”, eh, Ava?

    Back in my Cal Poly days, a guy I knew described in detail how to work “expert consultant” as a scam.

  47. linda: My husband found the last straw was the preacher telling us his job was to listen to and follow God, and our job was to listen to and follow the preacher.

    Clericalism and Priestcraft, the Priesthood’s boot on the Laity’s neck by Divine Right – Wasn’t that one of the Reformers’ big beefs about Romish Popery?

  48. linda: he and the music leader tried to manipulate crowd emotions

    Seems that intimidation, manipulation and domination are in the tool kit of a lot of “pastors” these days … none of which are fruit of the Holy Spirit. Buyer beware!

  49. linda: I think a good SS, if I can find one, when it is safe to go out and about more, will be about it

    I know several members at an SBC New Calvinist church takeover (they are non-Calvinist) who opted to stay but attend Sunday School only. They were told by the young whippersnapper reformed pastor to start attending worship services so they could be under his preaching … some left, some were shunned … a good friend was “excommunicated” because he chose to attend SS there, but attend another church’s worship service. The NeoCals can be brutal.

  50. Michael in UK: Ephesians 5 lists pastoring as a distributed gift alongside others, not an elite job.

    Whose job is the ministry? Every believer has a part!

    “From Him the whole body, the church, in all its various parts, joined and knitted firmly together by what every joint supplies, when each part is working properly, causes the body to grow and mature, building itself up in unselfish love.” (Ephesians 4:16 AMP)

  51. Michael in UK: I saw people get pie eyed about the Pied. First they walked out, then the place they walked out from fell apart (for everybody)

    “If this teaching or movement is merely human it will collapse of its own accord” (Acts 5:39 Phillips)

  52. Max,

    Max–when we can go back out in the world we know folks at a definitely NOT SBC SS that are pretty laid back and very kind and loving. I think that would be our first foray.

  53. Max: “Urinating in meetings, throwing chairs in a rage, and failing to report abuse of a minor in Harvest’s youth ministry”

    Max, if as a ‘boy’, he was urinating publicly and throwing chairs in rages, you would think the parents would take him to a good pediatric neurologist. Those extreme behaviors might NOT have been under his control totally, especially if he had suffered some kind of heavy epileptic activity as an infant or some such trauma during his development.

    He sounds like a ‘case’ for Dr. Phil’s best evaluators to look at. . . . but no, the ‘norm’ in that group sounds like he fit right in and is now helping to run the show. (?)

    When ‘acting out’ behaviors are extreme, sometimes it’s a warning sign for parents to get their children evaluated. But when the ‘acting out’ is not RECOGNIZED as part of abnormal behavior, we end up with a societal acceptance of anger, abusive behaviors, disrespect and incivility publicly. Question is, in what denominations are such behaviors seen as a way to ‘keep the sheep under control’??? May God have mercy.

  54. Max: There wouldn’t be so many wackos in the pulpit if it weren’t for enough wackos in the pew financing them. Pulpit actors would have no stage if it weren’t for a gullible audience willing to buy tickets to their show.

    Dietrich had something to say about this kind of repeating history. I saw this recently and it is absolute Gold: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww47bR86wSc
    It explains much more than just bad preachers. Foolish people are buying into many things today.

  55. linda: nd the second one is pretty much doing the same stuff as all the hypercharismatics are doing.

    To the point of running around screaming and slicing themsevbes with knives?
    “BAAL! BAAL! BAAL!”

    (“Ba’al” is supposed to be the Semitic root word for “Lord”. Think about it next time you run into an over-the-top Uber-Christian whose every other word out of their mouth is “The LORD”…)

  56. Max: Unfortunately, too many churchgoers seem to like church wild and crazy, with “Pastor Nutcase” at the helm … it makes them feel better about themselves.

    It’s like something I heard once about sex with a psycho:
    Teh Crazy is supposed to make them totally uninhibited dynamite in the sack, and that excuses everything.

  57. Sorry about the multi addresses. Computer is just plain nutso since we had severe thunderstorms Sunday night.

    Actually think it is the net connection. It went out and when it came back things are dicey.

  58. Ava Aaronson: Headless Unicorn Guy: Just like Witchcraft, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!

    Slam dunk.

    “Just like fill-in-the-blank, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!” is NEVER a good sign.

    Even in a Christianese bubble brim-full with Christianese knockoffs of EVERTYHING outside the bubble. Pretty shoddy knockoffs at that.

  59. linda: To the point of telling the pew peons if they just get excited enough the church would see a physical manifestation of the Holy Spirit drop from the ceiling.

    Or ride down a golden escalator from the penthouse of a certain NYC high-rise?

  60. Headless Unicorn Guy: (“Ba’al” is supposed to be the Semitic root word for “Lord”. Think about it next time you run into an over-the-top Uber-Christian whose every other word out of their mouth is “The LORD”…)

    I have started wondering if the “Not all who call ‘LORD! LORD!'” verse was a pun in the original language, i.e. “those who call ‘BAAL! BAAL!'” (or may as well be). Too bad puns don’t translate between languages; I understand every vision in the Book of Amos is built around a groaner of a pun in Hebrew.

  61. Max: At least Pastor Luke peed in a cup and not on the church floor … that would have been irreverent!

    LOL

    that caught me off guard, Max!

  62. ARC church guest speaker “prophecying” over people in the audience. He was speaking as if he was God. Not joking. Check out minute mark 41:00 where he was “prophecying” over Brandon Lake. (Bethel singer/song writer and worship leader at Seacoast Church.
    https://youtu.be/VzEc0r8je9U