Is the SBC Going to Hell in a Handbasket?

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An amusing anecdote from my trip. Gruyeres is a charming medieval village. The historical castle and the old village are located on a hill above the rest of the town. We visited the 13th century castle. I learned that the villages in Switzerland are quite proud of the accomplishments of their residents, no matter the century. One old village building had been converted into a museum, the most unexpected HR Griger Museum. Griger is a famous Swiss artist but not for what you might expect.

He was awarded an « Oscar » in 1980 in Hollywood for the movie « Alien ». He was the designer of the Alien beast and different other biomechanical creatures.

To make the atmosphere even more unusual, there is a bar across the way, designed by Griger, which evokes memories of the movie. This was one of the last things I thought I would see in Gruyeres. Of course, I insisted on taking the tour.

A bar completely designed by Giger built on the left hand side of the Museum is the last living master piece of the artist where the atmosphere and the sensation are incomparable.

There is something amusing about learning of Charles the Bold and HR Griger, both residents of this famous village, separated by about 550 years! From what I gather, Griger was more successful than his ancestor.


Ed Kilgore posted the provocatively titled: The Southern Baptist Church Is Going to Hell in a Handbasket. I had to laugh. I have used these words in a not infrequent manner at home. I learned something new. Did you know that it is part of the Baptist culture to maintain a strict church-state separation? According to BJC:

The BJC’s mission is to defend and extend God-given religious liberty for all, furthering the Baptist heritage that champions the principle that religion must be freely exercised, neither advanced nor inhibited by government.

…The separation of church and state, or the “wall of separation” talked about by colonial Baptist Roger Williams, American leader Thomas Jefferson and the U.S. Supreme Court, is simply shorthand for expressing a deeper truth: religious liberty is best protected when church and state remain institutionally separated and neither tries to perform or interfere with the essential mission and work of the other.

For many Baptists, religious liberty is tied to the notion of “soul freedom,” which each individual receives as a gift from God. For others, it is tied to freedom of conscience. Church-state separation is the means of protecting these personal liberties.

That sure surprised me as I look back at how many Baptist leaders, Jerry Falwell, for one, appeared to believe that the passing of certain laws or the election of certain politicians would make America a Christian nation. The 90s saw a time of rapid increase of membership in the SBC.

Kilgore reports the following which is no surprise to me. It has long been known that the SBC has inflated membership numbers due to the fact that virtually no one ever leaves the roles of the SBC. I have been aware that many of the SBC leaders are cognizant of this problem. I wonder if I am still on the roles?

Now the edifice of Southern Baptist confidence is eroding. SBC membership has dropped for 13 consecutive years, with the sharpest drop occurring most recently. No longer can Baptists mock “liberal” mainline Protestants for membership declines

The article points out that the SBC, often the moral arbiter has been caught, quite literally with its pants down as they face the incredibly disturbing reports of sex abuse in the SBC.

The article discusses that Russell Moore and Beth Moore have left the building. Russell Moore now attends an Acts 29 church and Beth Moore is still exploring where to lay her head. This is happening at the same time that Rick Warren has ordained 3 female pastors. Such a move in the SBC is an anathema to the male-only rule. Yet, it appears that the SBC doesn’t know quite what to do about it. Throw Rick Warren’s church out of the fold? It has yet to happen. They know how $big$ and influential his church is.

However, Beth Moore and Russell Moore are often called “liberals” by the conservative wing of the SBC. However, King thinks this is nonsense.

The reason Russell Moore’s “J’accuse!” in particular is roiling conservative Christians is that he is claiming they exhibit precisely the bad faith, idolatry, and hedonistic license they have so often accused those outside their ranks of manifesting.

…In one of the leaked letters that is creating such grief, Russell Moore recalled one SBC leader very recently saying, “The conservative resurgence is like the Civil War, except this time, unlike the last one, the right side won.” This coming from a denomination in which racial diversification was supposed to be the preferred strategy for offsetting membership losses! Late last year there was a damaging mini-exodus of Black pastors from the SBC

King raises an interesting question. Will the SBC face its own schism? Here is where I’ll disagree with King. It is so easy to leave the SBC and change the baptist church into a *nondenominational” church with baptistic practices. After all, what is the reason for staying in the SB except for the very nice retirement package offered to those affiliated with the SBC. I have often wonder if the churches who chose to affiliate with the SBC did so for the retirement package as opposed to the oft-stated cause” We want to participate in their missions program.” Am I cynical? Perhaps. However, I do not think we will see a parting of the way like the Lutherans in the 70s or the Anglicans and Episcopals in the recent past.

King summed it up nicely:

It’s unclear whether the potential schism in the Southern Baptist Convention will spread to the breaking point, fizzle out, or get papered over. Similarly, the political fallout is hard to predict. But at a time when conservative white Christianity is the single strongest amalgam for the conservative populist political cause, which cannot afford many defections, the loss of unity and esprit de corps among the largest single group of evangelicals is no small matter.

Let’s end it on his words.

he SBC, the Christian right, and the broader conservative movement don’t seem to be growing, and they have a lot of sins to confess.

Sadly, the confession of sins does not take a high priority in the SBC. I know and I left.

Comments

Is the SBC Going to Hell in a Handbasket? — 92 Comments

  1. Administrative Note:

    Dee is having Internet issues at home. It comes and goes. Her ISP is coming out with a replacement modem and other tools to deal with the issue tomorrow afternoon.

    Her presence here may be light for a bit.

  2. Okay, 3, since it seems to be the norm. Why are the SBC grand poobahs rattling sabers and rallying the ever-decreasing troops instead of considering maybe they need to engage in self reflection to discern what they’re getting wrong? Never mind. They could never be wrong.

  3. I just checked in on Twitter before coming here and everyone is totally melting down! My feed was just a flood of tweets about Floyd insisting the committee would not be investigated. I mean, I’ve known for years that the SBC was corrupt. That became completely obvious to me through working at NAMB and then at seminary. Is it even worth saving?

  4. “That sure surprised me as I look back at how many Baptist leaders, Jerry Falwell, for one, appeared to believe that the passing of certain laws or the election of certain politicians would make America a Christian nation. The 90s saw a time of rapid increase of membership in the SBC.”

    I remember the early days when Pat Robertson began broadcasting his 700 Club and after a while, the talk veered in a political direction.

    Was this time in the fundamentalist-evangelical world actually the beginning of the formation of a very different faith community than the one proposed by colonial Baptist leader Roger Williams?

    I think it must have been. Maybe this early time was the beginning of an informal, yet very real ‘schism’, happening over decades in slow motion?
    The ‘politicization’ of the Church did not happen with one person or over-night; there was much ‘testing of the waters’ to see what would be ‘tolerated’ and as the old people died out over the last fifty years and the hymn books were put away, only then did political figures get called to come into fundamentalist-evangelical pulpits to speak to congregations, only then.

    I think the schism has gone about as far as it can without people having to take their heads out of the sand and look around and ask once more ‘to whom shall we go, Lord?’

    I just feel for the very old and the very young for whom Church is more than a social club or a political entry, but maybe instead a ‘sanctuary’ within a wider ‘family’ of those who care for them in their vulnerability.
    Maybe some stay for the sake of those who need their kindness? I wouldn’t judge, but the effects of politics and dominionism do seem to have been far more the result of ‘the Fall’ than not. The Church that has reached out to the wounded now itself needs healing on all fronts, from what? From pride, from hubris, from arrogance, and FROM the politically ambitious. May God have mercy for the sake of the very vulnerable in all faith communities.

  5. ishy: Is it even worth saving?

    Excellent question.

    Once in awhile a frustrated or disgusted TWW commenter calls for a whole denomination to be abolished. We don’t have the power to take such action. But members might ask, does the good outweigh the bad? If not, folks should leave promptly, instead of continuing to prop up an institution using their money, time, and especially their own reputations.

    Some institutions can be reformed, but the SBC refuses to listen to anyone inside or outside regarding abuse, excessive control of members, and overreach in the areas of politics, social issues, and now health and medicine.

  6. Falwell was never SBC; he was IBC. I know that seems piddling, but in that world it’s a huge difference.

  7. I see what is going on in the SBC as a sign of the problem in the people in general. Repentance is something that is rare. The SBC got big by giving people what they wanted. There is a lot of inner soul searching that needs to go on throughout the entire body of Christ. Without it things in the world will keep getting worse because our salt is not good for anything. I sure hope this goes beyond the outward pointed fingers with an inner examination that cleans the real problem up. Our ways are not His ways and our thoughts are not His thoughts.

  8. ishy,

    “My feed was just a flood of tweets about Floyd insisting the committee would not be investigated.”
    +++++++++++++

    so, what are the spectrum of consequences here for Schmonnie Schmoyd and the Executive Committee?

    they’re not untouchable.

    (as if they could possibly be ‘The Lord’s anointed’. as if anyone really knows what that even means)

    (it’s not out of the realm of possibility that there’s one or more committee members with enough integrity to stand up to this, which would add fuel to things)

  9. It would have been nice if the denomination funded the retirement of pastors of SBC churches but they don’t, never have. I get a nice retirement check because I (and the churches I served) put funds in a retirement account managed by the SBC’s GuideStone. My money, not theirs. No one is hindered from leaving the SBC because it would put their retirement at risk.

    You should find plenty of things to write about the next couple of weeks. Exciting times in our Grand Old Convention of autonomous churches and entities.

  10. Michael: Falwell was never SBC; he was IBC. I know that seems piddling, but in that world it’s a huge difference.

    Not true. He agreed to Paige Patterson that if the political conservatives won the SBC in 2000, he would join and throw in his support. And he did join Thomas Road to the SBC right after that. Patterson came and spoke at Liberty before that, I’m guessing to garner support for the takeover from all the SBC pastor’s kids that went there.

  11. elastigirl: so, what are the spectrum of consequences here for Schmonnie Schmoyd and the Executive Committee?

    they’re not untouchable.

    That’s a good question that was being heavily debated on Twitter. If they were investigated, I guess some of the committee has already expressed they didn’t want to get sued. So that tells me there’s something for them to be sued over.

    I don’t really remember anymore how the committee is chosen. I did see calls for them, but particularly Floyd, to be removed, but I’m not sure how that process is done. In my experience with people with a lot of power in the SBC, they probably don’t even believe they can be removed, even if there is a process (which I’m sure there is). The messengers voted for this investigation, but I wonder if the committee has any consequences for not carrying out a directive. I’m guessing they’d never allow something like that, but being removed or voted out is the only consequence.

  12. Dee, you mention that “no one ever leaves the roles of the SBC” and you wonder if you’re “still on the roles”.

    Is it possible that you mean “rolls”? I think your Autocorrect may have struck.

    (Hmm, I grew up Baptist. I wonder if I’m still on my old church’s membership roll. 🙂 )

  13. christiane: I just feel for the very old and the very young for whom Church is more than a social club or a political entry, but maybe instead a ‘sanctuary’ within a wider ‘family’ of those who care for them in their vulnerability….May God have mercy for the sake of the very vulnerable in all faith communities.

    That.

    christiane: The Church that has reached out to the wounded now itself needs healing on all fronts, from what? From pride, from hubris, from arrogance, and FROM the politically ambitious.

    That.

  14. Tina: Dee, you mention that “no one ever leaves the roles of the SBC” and you wonder if you’re “still on the roles”.
    Is it possible that you mean “rolls”? I think your Autocorrect may have struck.

    What has stuck is the fact that my internet is down in the house and my Grammarly and other helps are working much slower than usual. The Spectrum fixer is coming at 2PM today.

  15. William Thornton: It would have been nice if the denomination funded the retirement of pastors of SBC churches but they don’t, never have. I get a nice retirement check because I (and the churches I served) put funds in a retirement account managed by the SBC’s GuideStone. My money, not theirs. No one is hindered from leaving the SBC because it would put their retirement at risk.

    HI William
    Thank you for your comment. I have been reading SBC Voices over the last two days. It is so helpful. I agree. Stuff. is happening.

  16. Michael: Falwell was never SBC; he was IBC. I know that seems piddling, but in that world it’s a huge difference.

    True that. However the school and its direction is now solidly in the SBC camp.

  17. ishy: I just checked in on Twitter before coming here and everyone is totally melting down! My feed was just a flood of tweets about Floyd insisting the committee would not be investigated. I mean, I’ve known for years that the SBC was corrupt. That became completely obvious to me through working at NAMB and then at seminary. Is it even worth saving?

    Yep-it’s going to be a hot September in the SBC.

  18. SMull: Why are the SBC grand poobahs rattling sabers and rallying the ever-decreasing troops instead of considering maybe they need to engage in self reflection to discern what they’re getting wrong? Never mind. They could never be wrong.

    Repent? Repent of what?!!

  19. christiane: The Church that has reached out to the wounded now itself needs healing on all fronts, from what? From pride, from hubris, from arrogance, and FROM the politically ambitious.

    And that would be a more difficult task for current SBC leaders than in times past. The New Calvinists are now firmly in control of the denomination – they have set up NeoCal leaders in all of its entities (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, and a growing number of once-traditional churches). The SBC elite and their followers suffer from the very things you mention: pride, hubris, arrogance and political ambitions. It would take an act of God to get their attention now. That ‘might’ come after SBC reaches the bottom of their handbasket hell, but I have my doubts that the new reformers will ever humble themselves, pray, repent, turned from their wicked ways, and seek God. They are right and the rest of us are wrong, you know.

  20. christiane: I just feel for the very old and the very young for whom Church is more than a social club or a political entry, but maybe instead a ‘sanctuary’ within a wider ‘family’ of those who care for them in their vulnerability.

    They are collateral victims of poor SBC leadership. God is close to the broken hearted, but resists the proud. He doesn’t show up at church-sponsored social parties or political rallies, but He hears the cries of the vulnerable who have been forgotten and mistreated in the family of God.

  21. “It has long been known that the SBC has inflated membership numbers due to the fact that virtually no one ever leaves the rolls of the SBC.”

    It is the unpardonable sin for a local church secretary to reduce the membership by removing names! That would make the church appear to be on the decline in its annual report to the SBC State Convention. Thus, reported members across all State Conventions has remained at around 15 million SBC total for half a century. I dare say that a close examination of names on the rolls at most SBC churches would include dead people, those who have moved from the community, those who have changed their religious affiliation, members who have not attended in decades, and those otherwise missing in action.

    My wife was a volunteer church secretary at a rural SBC church several years ago. She made an attempt to clean up the church roster by removing such names and was met with weeping and gnashing of teeth by church leaders … she decided to volunteer for children’s ministry instead.

  22. “I wonder if I am still on the rolls?”

    I am on three different SBC church rolls, continuing to receive correspondence from them even though we moved our membership years ago (due to relocation to another city, disgusted, and finally done).

  23. “one SBC leader very recently saying, “The conservative resurgence is like the Civil War, except this time, unlike the last one, the right side won.”

    Those who know SBC history know that the denomination was founded by slave-holding Calvinists (including pastors) who believed that sovereign God was on their side during the Civil War until early Confederate victories turned to defeat. Following the War, SBC distanced itself from the founders’ theology and remained distinctly non-Calvinist in belief and practice for 150 years … until Al Mohler and his Mohlerites began to drag the denomination back to its roots without asking the non-Calvinist majority if they wanted to go there!

  24. Max: “It has long been known that the SBC has inflated membership numbers due to the fact that virtually no one ever leaves the rolls of the SBC.”

    It is the unpardonable sin for a local church secretary to reduce the membership by removing names!

    Speaking earlier of Thomas Road, they count all the students at Liberty as members even if they have home churches where they are members. I wouldn’t be surprised to know that other SBC churches have really fudgy numbers like that. But then you have some New Calvinist churches who make it really hard to join their church. I imagine some use Grace Community’s model where you have to revise and revise and revise to get an acceptable testimony to join (although I am sure having a lot of $$$ to donate can accelerate that process).

    We keep hearing about all these people leaving the SBC, but I wonder how they know because many of those churches would never admit it?

  25. I wonder whether it occurs to (protestant) proponents of “politically muscular” christianity that a foundational principle of protestant thinking is that “law-keeping does not make one righteous”.

    But maybe what they’re after is not a righteous nation, just one that feels safe, or that they control culturally.

    Me thinks they have a bit in common with the people they diss as “snowflakes”

  26. Point of history: time was the SBC very much held to the separation of church and state. I strongly suggest refreshing with Mullins and Hobbs. They “lost it” when prayer was removed from public school WITH THE STRONG SUPPORT of the Baptist Joint Commission (or was it Committee?). SBC pulled out of that and then formed their own ERLC.

    Falwell did not start out SBC. The SBC changed, not Falwell. The SBC had taken on the mantle of the old temperance unions, only on different issues. The SBC originally was QUITE separation of church and state.

    Now, if the SBC were to actually revert to being Baptists it might be savable.

    Otherwise, no it is not going to hell in a handbasket. It is doing so in a fighter jet put into a deliberate nose dive.

  27. ishy: We keep hearing about all these people leaving the SBC, but I wonder how they know because many of those churches would never admit it?

    Exactly. I fully suspect that well over half of reported SBC members have exited in the last 20, while they are still numbered among the SBC faithful. They are probably still counting the multitude that left to form the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship during the Conservative (aka Calvinist) Resurgence.

  28. dee: What has stuck is the fact that my internet is down in the house and my Grammarly and other helps are working much slower than usual. The Spectrum fixer is coming at 2PM today.

    I feel your pain, Dee!

  29. ishy: Is it even worth saving?

    Well, I’m not at the point to toss it out … but the SBC for 150 years before New Calvinism was focused on evangelism and mission (two things dear to my heart – as it should be for every Christian, IMO. Those endeavors have now largely dropped off the SBC radar in favor of indoctrinating the masses with reformed theology and power plays by various factions to sit on the throne. The only way out of handbasket hell is for SBC to start preaching the Gospel again (the ‘real’ one), but I don’t see much movement in that direction.

  30. No, the SBC is not worth saving, because the Neo-Cals killed the essence of what the SBC used to embody: the priesthood of the believer. This was the first Baptist distinctive they threw out because it was considered “dangerous” for any person of faith to reach a spiritual conclusion on their own without the sanction of pastoral leadership.

  31. Luckyforward: the Neo-Cals killed the essence of what the SBC used to embody: the priesthood of the believer

    Yes, as well as soul competency, another Baptist distinctive that was diminished when the New Calvinists took control of SBC. Priesthood of ‘the’ believer and soul competency were core doctrines within SBC for 150 years BM (Before Mohler).

  32. Max: Yes, as well as soul competency, another Baptist distinctive that was diminished when the New Calvinists took control of SBC. Priesthood of ‘the’ believer and soul competency were core doctrines within SBC for 150 years BM (Before Mohler).

    ABSOLUTELY!

  33. ishy: We keep hearing about all these people leaving the SBC, but I wonder how they know because many of those churches would never admit it?

    An educated guess here, but I suspect that the declines are from churches leaving the org and going from 2 to 3X real numbers to zero and those that shut their doors for good. The result would be the same, from some wildly inflated number to the only real one possible: zero.

  34. dee,

    Interesting the unity built in recent years, over politics. Strange bedfellows. Never happened previously over spiritual values.

    Maybe politics are the “spiritual” values. Far cry from the HS. Not even adjacent nor approaching.

  35. EDavid Dougherty: EDavid Dougherty on Thu Sep 09, 2021 at 05:49 PM said:
    … no one ever leaves the rolls of the SBC

    I wonder if I’m still on the roll of the Baptist church I “joined” over 20 years ago. I was working at an SBC college and was taking classes for my own enrichment because employees got free tuition. One requirement was being a member of a church. I had no church because a previous ministry experience ended with me being alone in my bedroom with the barrel of a pistol in my mouth. Didn’t pull the trigger, obviously, but I wasn’t willing to trust another Christian “leader.” A fellow student was a pastor of a small church and kindly offered me a chance to become an official member with no real responsibly. So I attended once, I was voted in, and that was that. The college bigwigs didn’t care about me as a person or fellow Christian. They just wanted all the boxes to be checked.

  36. Mr. Jesperson: An educated guess here, but I suspect that the declines are from churches leaving the org and going from 2 to 3X real numbers to zero and those that shut their doors for good. The result would be the same, from some wildly inflated number to the only real one possible: zero.

    Very well could be. But I bet the actual numbers are much lower than reported. They really can’t afford all their infighting and power wars, but they are too enmeshed in their own egos to fix anything.

  37. SMull: Didn’t pull the trigger, obviously, but I wasn’t willing to trust another Christian “leader.”

    I am so very sorry that you had a church experience that put you into a suicidal state, and grateful that you are alive and free of that. I am also sorry that the college bigwigs did not care about you. Truly I hope that your life now has compassion as well as clarity and healing.

  38. A.Baptist:
    Dee — did you see Samantha Kilpatrick resurfaced?Investigating the SBC for Guideposts?

    Thank you for letting me know. I am not surprised. I hope its goes better than how it went in my former church.

  39. Friend:

    Truly I hope that your life now has compassion as well as clarity and healing

    Thanks so much. No, it hasn’t gotten better. I now work in a Christian nonprofit that isn’t Baptist in name but still has the theological foundation. The bullies and bigots win because they have the God-approved pants package. Still, there are wonderful people here, even if they’re not allowed a voice. Why do I stay? I’m autistic, so getting a payable job isn’t so easy.

    That was a source of my (many) negative experiences in the evangelical world. Not only am I a female who thinks (gasp), I’m incapable of conforming to established norms. But the upside is that I can view my Savoir without a pre-eastablished filter.

  40. Interesting. The phrase usually used over here is “going to hell in a handcart”. This was once rather waspishly parodied by Stephen Fry as “going to hell in a Bonham-Carter”.

    I hope this is helpful.

  41. On a less serious note, it’s actually “H.R. Giger”, not “H.R. Griger”. I saw an interview with him once, and he certainly came across like the kind of laddie who would design that kind of creature…

  42. SMull: I had no church because a previous ministry experience ended with me being alone in my bedroom with the barrel of a pistol in my mouth. Didn’t pull the trigger

    I’m glad (as are probably many others) that you didn’t pull the trigger. 🙂

  43. Nick Bulbeck: The phrase usually used over here is “going to hell in a handcart”.

    Do people use “FUBAR” on your side of the pond? It also seems applicable for the subject of this post.

  44. Nick Bulbeck: The phrase usually used over here is “going to hell in a handcart”.

    I guess one would reach that eternal destination faster in a cart than a basket.

    (welcome back Nick – hope all is going well on your side of the pond)

  45. SMull: I can view my Savoir without a pre-eastablished filter

    And there’s freedom in that!

    “Plant your feet firmly therefore within the freedom that Christ has won for us, and do not let yourselves be caught again in the shackles of bondage” (Galatians 5:1)

    Welcome to the Wartburg community, SMull

  46. Max: Luckyforward: the Neo-Cals killed the essence of what the SBC used to embody: the priesthood of the believer
    Yes, as well as soul competency, another Baptist distinctive that was diminished when the New Calvinists took control of SBC. Priesthood of ‘the’ believer and soul competency were core doctrines within SBC for 150 years BM (Before Mohler).

    That, in fact, goes all the way back to Roger Williams. He likely “borrowed “ it from the Dutch Mennonites of the period. The idea that one cannot be coerced to join an “established “ church is one of the radical ideas of the sixteenth century.

    Williams and the Quakers of the period gave the Puritans no rest. The SBC is largely their intellectual descendants.

  47. Judas Maccabeus:
    I of course mean that the current SBC more resembles the Puritans than Williams

    Remember that “Puritans” come from the same word as “Purity”.
    As in “Purity of Ideology”.

  48. Nick Bulbeck:
    On a less serious note, it’s actually “H.R. Giger”, not “H.R. Griger”. I saw an interview with him once, and he certainly came across like the kind of laddie who would design that kind of creature…

    As in “One WEIRD Dude”?

  49. Judas Maccabeus: I of course mean that the current SBC more resembles the Puritans than Williams

    I wouldn’t compare SBC’s New Calvinists (the ruling party) with the Puritans. At least the Puritans followed strict moral rules. The can’t be said about anything-goes NeoCals, some of which have antinomian (lawless) belief and practice.

  50. SMull: The bullies and bigots win because they have the God-approved pants package.

    i.e.
    “GAWD SEZ I’M RIGHT –
    I HAVE A D*CK!”

    (So do I, but I don’t whip it out and brag about it as Proof of GAWD’s Speshul Favor…)

    P.S. The word “Bigot” comes from the phrase “By GAWD!”

  51. Judas Maccabeus: Williams and the Quakers of the period gave the Puritans no rest. The SBC is largely their intellectual descendants.

    Intellectual perhaps, but not very smart when it comes to exegesis of Scripture.

  52. ishy: Speaking earlier of Thomas Road, they count all the students at Liberty as members even if they have home churches where they are members. I wouldn’t be surprised to know that other SBC churches have really fudgy numbers like that.

    JUST LIKE SCIENTOLOGY!

  53. Judas Maccabeus: I of course mean that the current SBC more resembles the Puritans than Williams

    yes, when you consider how the Puritans persecuted Roger Williams whose ‘soul competency’ allowed him to follow his OWN conscience in matters of faith

  54. Dee “I have often wonder if the churches who chose to affiliate with the SBC did so for the retirement package as opposed to the oft-stated cause” We want to participate in their missions program”
    I don’t think you’re being cynical. As a (presumably) former member of a flagship SBC church I have long thought that retirement plans and other benefits were the driving force behind churches affiliating. I don’t think there is anything wrong with joining for that reason per-se, however there is a great deal wrong with not being honest and forthright with your individual church members. I also don’t know how tithes and offerings may or may not contribute to the massive Guidestone portfolio (someone may want to research that) which might change my opinion.
    Regarding the greater SBC response as well as the individual church member response to our leaving our church, I have no doubt that they treat us as unbelievers who have fallen away from the faith or were not true believers at all (scripture as we know well can be mis-used to support any argument). FYI: we are very much believers in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I could go on but I’ll stop here.

  55. Sharon: Regarding the greater SBC response as well as the individual church member response to our leaving our church, I have no doubt that they treat us as unbelievers who have fallen away from the faith or were not true believers at all

    I’m sure they used the old standby passage “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us” (1 John 2:19)

    When New Calvinism rolled into SBC ranks, I went out from them because I was not of them. I’m done with SBC … but not done with Jesus.

  56. Ken F (aka Tweed): Do people use “FUBAR” on your side of the pond?

    It’s not common over here, especially among the weans. For some reason it’s widely used among software developers, in the form of the standard example variables foo and bar. Personally, I don’t use them – if I need to use an example variable, I always call it foadyb. This is for historical reasons.

  57. researcher,

    Max,

    Thankyou both for your kind comments! I’ll try and post here a bit mair often the noo. I’ve been heavily involved in learning full-stack JavaScript which has involved a lot of online interactions – all good fun, but it’s sooked up most of my attention.

  58. Sharon: I don’t think you’re being cynical. As a (presumably) former member of a flagship SBC church I have long thought that retirement plans and other benefits were the driving force behind churches affiliating.

    I know they sure talked up missions giving as being the purpose for the SBC, even after the New Cals took over. Of course, I can’t even count how many times I’ve been lied to by a New Calvinist, so….

  59. QUOTE: It is so easy to leave the SBC and change the baptist church into a *nondenominational” church with baptistic practices. After all, what is the reason for staying in the SB except for the very nice retirement package offered to those affiliated with the SBC.

    According to GuideStone Financial Services’ website (under their historical timeline), part of the reason for their name change (previously they were the Annuity Board of the Southern Baptist Convention) was their intent to expand their offerings outside the SBC to “like-minded evangelical churches and ministries”. So if a church really wanted to either affiliate with, or leave, the SBC, GuideStone’s retirement offerings wouldn’t play a part.

  60. Michael:
    Falwell was never SBC; he was IBC. I know that seems piddling, but in that world it’s a huge difference.

    Originally he and his church were part of the Baptist Bible Fellowship International (a quasi-denomination which broke away from J. Frank Norris), but later he led Thomas Road BC into the SBC camp (the church was dually-affiliated with both). Liberty University never joined the SBC, but it left its fundamentalist roots and would now be considered non-denominational evangelical.

  61. Michael,

    Except toward the 90s, Falwell, as well as David Jeremiah, aligned their IFB churches with the SBC without renouncing the IFB.

  62. Mark R: Liberty University never joined the SBC, but it left its fundamentalist roots and would now be considered non-denominational evangelical.

    You have heard the one about “nondenominational evangelical” meaning SBC with the labels painted over?
    (Except if you’re where Muff & I live; then it’s “Calvary Chapel Clone with the labels painted over”?

  63. Max: I’m sure they used the old standby passage “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us” (1 John 2:19)

    And smack their lips at the image of you burning in Hell for all Eternity while they gloat from their catered Box Suites in Heaven.

    Yet another Verse that got Weaponized.
    Makes me thing of that Eighties Pat Benatar song, “Stop Using Sex as a Weapon”; just substitute “God” for “Sex” and you’ll see my point.

  64. Friend,

    I have offered that very expression of disgust toward the SBC here in the past.

    I’m not convinced they are doing less harm than good in the eyes of the non-Christian at large.

  65. Afterburne: Yet, to me anyway, the few words I have read seem more like poison than good news.

    I feel the same. I don’t know how he became so popular among New-Calvinists. But you can buy mugs and shirts with “Jonathan Edwards is my homeboy.”

  66. Ava Aaronson:
    dee,

    Maybe politics are the “spiritual” values.

    I hope this isn’t skating too close to the line of political discussion. If so please accept my apologies and remove this comment.

    Personally, I think we have witnessed the rise of a hard right pseudo-religious political cult. One that has supplanted God with a preferred ideology but which still has God mixed in as a part of it to provide legitimacy in the eyes of those who like to think they are Christian.

    I do think it has snared a good many of those who were/are truly Christian to some degree.

  67. Ken F (aka Tweed):

    . . . you can buy mugs and shirts with “Jonathan Edwards is my homeboy.”

    Too bad they don’t stamp that on their foreheads so they are more easily identified.

  68. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    That link is a perfect example of the verbose and “added to scripture” problem that exists in many camps. One scripture is turned into a diatribe of what one man thinks. And then the entire writing is taken as truth. It makes me ill.

  69. Bridget:
    Ken F (aka Tweed),

    . . . “added to scripture” problem that exists in many camps. One scripture is turned into a diatribe of what one man thinks. And then the entire writing is taken as truth.

    I am sure that this effect exists in all camps to some degree. The problem is that some of these ideas stray so much farther away from what was intended and are so much more harmful than others. ​

    Just because someone *thinks* they are “anointed” and has some measure of authority (legitimate or not) does not mean everything that pops into their head is from God.

    Many preachers would do well to keep their mouths shut – or at least learn to discern what might be meant for them only and not be forced upon others. In some cases these ideas are likely doctrines of demons and should not be mentioned out loud to anyone at all.

    I am quite sure that I have ideas that stray from what was intended. However, thankfully I don’t have a platform to spew them as “truth”.

  70. Afterburne: Ken F (aka Tweed):

    . . . you can buy mugs and shirts with “Jonathan Edwards is my homeboy.”

    Too bad they don’t stamp that on their foreheads so they are more easily identified.

    Make that Foreheads AND Right Hands.

  71. Afterburne: Personally, I think we have witnessed the rise of a hard right pseudo-religious political cult. One that has supplanted God with a preferred ideology but which still has God mixed in as a part of it to provide legitimacy in the eyes of those who like to think they are Christian.

    A similar thing happened with German Christians in the early 1930s. They were into full-honk Kulturkrieg against the HOMOSEXUAL and PORNOGRAPHIC Decadence of Weimar Berlin, and cleaved to a political cult of the time to restore Traditional Family Values. Even wrote about how the political cult leader was Anointed by God, cheering as said cult leader gave himself Absolute Authority. Kulturkrieg won.

    Then the Christians found out the political cult leader (an Austrian with a funny little mustache) didn’t need them any more; he had his own Loyal Base.

  72. Ken F (aka Tweed): They are only following the example of their homeboy, who wrote about it in disgusting detail here:
    https://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/contemplated.htm

    The formal name for that – where the Bliss of the Saved is watching the Torent of the Damned forever – is “The Abominable Fancy”.

    I wonder if “their homeboy” either lived too much in his frontal lobes of Theology or brought personal baggage (like a pessimistic and/or Depressive personality) into the mix, and that influenced his theology and sermons.

  73. “I desire to wake no dispute, will myself dispute with no man, but for the sake of those whom certain believers trouble, I have spoken my mind. I love the one God seen in the face of Jesus Christ. From all copies of Jonathan Edwards’s portrait of God, however faded by time, however softened by the use of less glaring pigments, I turn with loathing. Not such a God is he concerning whom was the message John heard from Jesus, that he is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”
    — George MacDonald

  74. Headless Unicorn Guy: The formal name for that – where the Bliss of the Saved is watching the Torent of the Damned forever – is “The Abominable Fancy”.

    A quote from Edwards:
    “When the saints in glory, therefore, shall see the doleful state of the damned, how will this heighten their sense of the blessedness of their own state, so exceedingly different from it! When they shall see how miserable others of their fellowcreatures are, who were naturally in the same circumstances with themselves; when they shall see the smoke of their torment, and the raging of the flames of their burning, and hear their dolorous shrieks and cries, and consider that they in the mean time are in the most blissful state, and shall surely be in it to all eternity; how will they rejoice!”

  75. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    Some consider(ed) him to be a Universalist. Maybe that is true, maybe not.

    However, based your quote of his above, it certainly seems that he had a better view of God than Mr. Edwards did.

  76. Afterburne: Some consider(ed) him to be a Universalist. Maybe that is true, maybe not.

    It is true. That said, there are different types of universalists. I used to believe universalism was heresy until I did more reading on it. There is a type of Christian universalism that has always been a minority view but has never been condemned as heresy by ecumenical church councils. Gregory of Nyssa, one of the Cappadocian Fathers who was responsible for the final version of the Nicene Creed, believed that all will ultimately be reconciled. His form of universalism was never condemned. George MacDonald was that type of universalist.

    Robin Parry, author of “The Evangelical Universalist,” wrote under the pen name Gregory MacDonald as a nod to both Gregory of Nyssa and George MacDonald. Parry makes a very good argument for that view while also acknowledging it is a minority view among Christians.

    There are basically three views of hell that are mutually exclusive but have good historical and biblical support: eternal conscious torment, annihilationism, and ultimate reconciliation. The arguments for (and against) all three are very compelling. None of the ecumenical church councils addressed which view is the correct one, which seems to indicate it does not matter very much. In any case, can one be a Christian and not hope for the salvation of all?