The 9Marx Interpretation of Acts 2:41

“The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.”
The Westminster Confession of Faith, I.IX


“I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.”
Abraham Maslow, “The Psychology of Science: A Reconnaissance”


Jonathan Leeman is the editorial director for 9Marks. He is highly educated, has written several books, is an adjunct professor at several seminaries, and the BFF of Mark Dever. He recently blocked me from his Twitter account, likely because of my response to his Tweet below.

As most of you likely know, there are work-arounds that enable you to continue to view the Tweets of those who have blocked you.

I like to keep an eye on Jon Leeman because he is a big-shot in the 9Marx para-church group. I believe that future generations of Christians will view 9Marx in the same negative light as they now view the Shepherding Movement, popular in the 1970-1980s. Both movements have, in my opinion, caused great harm to many disciples of Christ.

Yesterday I came across a few Tweets published by Jon Leeman. Since I can no longer reply directly to his Tweets, I thought they were important enough to bring to the attention of those outside of the 9Marx echo chamber.

First, let me say that of the 9 marks of a healthy church Mark Dever has chosen to put into a book, only two receive prominence. Those two are church membership and church discipline. Not many could name the other seven because they don’t get near the attention from Dever and Leeman.

The other item that receives a fair amount of attention among the 9Marxists is their odd take on baptism. I have written a few articles about it, the latest can be found here. With few exceptions they don’t believe anyone should be baptized until they reach the age of legal adulthood and are living on their own, having had time to prove the validity of their rebirth. Adults should also be closely monitored to ensure they are authentic Christians prior to baptizing them. Spontaneous baptisms, such as found throughout the book of Acts, are frowned upon.

I guess if any individual can rightly judge the heart of man, Mark Dever and his disciples should be the guys who could do so.

But not so fast.

Dever has had a few well known failures on his judgment of a man’s heart. Most notably would be Anthony Moore. Moore was a graduate of Dever’s 6-month internship program and was being pushed to prominence in the 9Marx conference world. Moore was also the lead pastor of the Fort Worth Campus of Matt Chandler’s Village Church.  Moore was fired from that job when his assistant pastor revealed to Village Church leadership that Moore had filmed him numerous times in the shower at Moore’s residence. Moore was then hired by his BFF, Thomas White to work at Cedarville University. Eventually, Moore’s past was revealed and White also had to fire Moore to save his own bacon. It was revealed that while attending Dever’s intern class, Moore – a married man, had written at least one email expressing his feelings to the guy he later voyeuristically filmed in his shower!

One would think if Dever had failed so terribly in his judgment of the heart of Anthony Moore, a man who had spent many hours with while Moore was an intern at his church, he might want to reconsider his baptism policy. You would be wrong.

Now on to the Tweets I saw yesterday.

Say what? This is, in my opinion, a classic example of the hammer and nail quote at the top of this article. It’s also a classic example of eisegesis – “the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one’s own ideas.”

Had the highly educated seminary professor merely read a few verses more in Acts 2 he would have had an answer to the question “To what number?” Specifically, they were added to the number of those who were being saved. It goes without saying they were added to the “Church Universal,” but I think it’s a reach to say they were added to the church of Jerusalem.

I admit I got a laugh out of this response to my Tweet:

I guess Jon Leeman has a study guide coming to market soon (a common and effective ploy by Christian publishers to increase revenue) for the book he and Collin Hansen authored titled, “Rediscover Church.”

Ah, now that is a good question. I don’t know if this questioner is referring to Baptist Churches, but she very well may be. After all, there are literally hundreds of Baptist churches where abusive and wicked pastors abused children and they were never disciplined. Many shuffled off to other Baptist churches and nothing was even said!

I think we should let Mark Dever answer this one. Perhaps he can start by answering why he allowed CJ Mahaney to flee church discipline at Covenant Life Church and attend Capitol Hill Baptist prior to taking his dog and pony show to Louisville to “plant a church.” Maybe at the same time Dever could answer us why he co-signed a statement with Ligon Duncan and Al Mohler supporting their friend, CJ Mahaney in the midst of the sexual abuse of children scandal within the Sovereign Grace denomination. (A statement Dever and Duncan have never retracted.)

It seems to me that the churches where pastors stress church discipline the most never get around to applying it to themselves. I think it would be very unloving (and unwise) to encourage someone to attend such a church, much less sign a membership contract!

Comments

The 9Marx Interpretation of Acts 2:41 — 164 Comments

  1. Great music vid!
    Makes me think of Johnny Cash at Folsom Prison.
    Portrayed really well (my opinion) by Joaquin Phoenix in the film Walk the Line.

  2. “I believe that future generations of Christians will view 9Marx in the same negative light as they now view the Shepherding Movement”

    IMO, you can extend that observation to the whole of New Calvinism from which 9Marx was spawned. When the dust of the new reformation has settled, church history will record the NeoCal movement in the chapter on cults.

  3. Muff Potter: Joaquin Phoenix in the film Walk the Line.

    Thanks, Muff. I also like the song and the film. Was that film released before or after Gladiator? At any rate, I now have trouble thinking of Joaquin Phoenix as anyone other than the wimpy Roman emperor. I guess that means he did a great job in the role!

  4. Max: IMO, you can extend that observation to the whole of New Calvinism from which 9Marx was spawned. When the dust of the new reformation has settled, church history will record the NeoCal movement in the chapter on cults.

    I agree. So much bad fruit.

  5. There are a number of examples in Acts where a person is baptised immediately after conversion, without having a church to go to.

    One is the story of the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts 8, another is the Philippian Jailer in Acts 16.

    Notably, Simon the Magician was baptised (acts 8.16) prior to his apostasy.

  6. Ken F ( aka Tweed): TGC has been pushing the book

    Thanks, Ken. I would imagine that’s because Collin Hansen, the co-author, also has a financial interest in sales of the book. As the Vice President and Editor in Chief of the TGC he likely can promote whatever he wants.

    But perhaps I am just too skeptical. Maybe this book is vitally important to the health of evangelical churches. I’ll leave it to somebody else to read and review it.

  7. From the post:
    “First, let me say that of the 9 marks of a healthy church Mark Dever has chosen to put into a book, only two receive prominence. Those two are church membership and church discipline. Not many could name the other seven because they don’t get near the attention from Dever and Leeman.”

    Good observation, and demonstrated here in yet another book:
    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/themelios/review/the-church-and-the-surprising-offense-of-gods-love-reintroducing-the-doctrines-of-church-membership-and-discipline/

  8. “a classic example of eisegesis”

    There would be no New Calvinism without stretching Scripture out of context to fit their theology. NeoCal elite continue to prove they are Biblically illiterate when interpreting some of the most important passages of Scripture.

  9. “It seems to me that the churches where pastors stress church discipline the most never get around to applying it to themselves. I think it would be very unloving (and unwise) to encourage someone to attend such a church, much less sign a membership contract!” Todd

    You have that right!

  10. When I read Ephesians 5:25-8 (which I’m assuming are the verses Leeman is alluding to in the first tweet) I understand Paul to be saying that Christ is the one who makes his church, both the men and women in it, holy. Christ makes his church holy through his love.

    I think Paul is telling husbands to love their wives in the same way – NOT to try to have the same effect as Christ (that’s impossible – only Christ makes his church holy), but to love in the same self-sacrificial manner.

    I’ve often heard these verses taught in the same way Leeman teaches them – that it is the husband’s responsibility to prepare his wife for Christ. But this is NOT what Paul is teaching.

    The commands are sobering enough without adding the impossible burden of trying to accomplish something only Christ can accomplish.

    Plus, I guess single ladies are out of luck in Leeman’s paradigm.

  11. I used to be a big fan of Bob Mumford and even subscribed to the New Wine magazine for a long time. But when he formed “covenant relationships” with the other 4 and began to incorporate extra-scriptural requirements for believers, a red flag went up. Especially when the “5” insisted that the meetings take place in homes and that nearly all decisions had to be approved by either them or their subordinates, I stopped listening and cancelled my subscription.

    I was pleased when Mumford repented and admitted the teachings had, “resulted in “perverse and unbiblical obedience” to leaders.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherding_movement

  12. Regarding the pic of Leeman at the beginning of post: I don’t mean to be unkind nor judgmental of outward appearance, but why would folks trust their spiritual lives to someone who looks so gruffy? My Dad told me to never trust a preacher with slick hair and a gold choker chain … I’m not sure what he would think about this new breed.

  13. It is truly amazing how quickly a “godly leader” will start “teaching” “principles” that build him, and his position “up”, at the expense of servanthood as taught by the NT…. It just happens again and again… just like the women at the Franklin Tn church… sigh..

  14. Hey Jonathan Leeman, how about if the wife recognizes Jesus because she is a Christ follower rather than a husband follower? Guessing that’s a novel thought for you. How arrogant and completely belittling that you would think the only way a woman would know Christ is through a man. And how about that 3000 people were baptized and were added to “those who accepted his message”?

  15. Leah Jacobs: how about that 3000 people were baptized and were added to “those who accepted his message”?

    Or were “added to those who had been baptized”?

    There was no “Jerusalem Church” at the time, with a website and membership contracts and a superstructure of authority-hungry “leaders.” There was just some men and women waiting, fearfully but with faith, on the Lord, and then BOOM.

  16. “Applies his spin to the Bible, the Word of God.”

    Dangerous path. What does the Bible say about people who add even one iota of their own spin … and then go preach their spin to others, as truth from God? Spin doctors posing as HS gifted teachers, does it get worse in the shadow church, misleading those hungry for God…

    We have used the Thompson Chain Reference Bible for years, because how the Bible explains itself, as stated at the beginning of this post, is the door to authentic and sincere understanding.

  17. Speaking of discipline, one might examine the list of articles on 9Marks’ staff pages for discussions of disciplining overseers (which per Biblical guidance includes removal and in cases of conduct crossing over to civil and criminal misconduct would logically involve rendering unto Caesar (also cf. Romans 13). One might not find an overabundance on that, but one might some telling items as far as their view on authority, especially top-down:

    https://www.9marks.org/about/mark-dever/

    https://www.9marks.org/about/jonathan-leeman/

    Check out the short article ‘How Mark Dever Passes Out Authority’
    — arguably amplified by the picture chosen. See if you see the concept of discipline, which we hear is so needed for the sheep, expressed as a priority.

    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/how-mark-dever-passes-out-authority/

    And noting another article from Jonathan Leeman that caught my eye:

    https://www.9marks.org/article/what-does-first-among-equals-mean-on-an-elder-board/
    An ‘elder friend’ “I need an education on the topic of “first among equals” as it relates to elders.” Leeman begins his answer: “In my experience, this is a question a lot of elder boards wrestle with in one form or another.”

    The quote “first among equals” doesn’t receive attribution. Noting that it’s not a Bible term, it’s telling to see where it does pop up:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primus_inter_pares

    “Historically, the princeps senatus of the Roman Senate was such a figure and initially bore only the distinction that he was allowed to speak first during debate. … the Archbishop of Canterbury of the Anglican Communion and the Ecumenical Patriarch of the Eastern Orthodox Church fall under both senses: bearing higher status and various additional powers while remaining still merely equal to their peers in important senses. …. The Dean of the College of Cardinals in the Catholic Church is generally considered to be the first among equal Prince of the Church in the College, which is the Pope’s highest-ranking council and elects as conclave (where an age limit applies) the papal successor, generally from its ranks.

    But wait, there’s more: “In each local Harvest Bible Chapel (or Vertical Church), the Senior Pastor is an elder who is “first among equals” of the other elders within that local church. The church’s position on what this means is that “All elders are equal in authority but not necessarily equal in influence.” This is differentiated from plural eldership where unanimous voting occurs. Instead, the governing principle is for the first among equals to possess a 50% voting block among a large group of elders. …
    In the People’s Republic of China, during the collective leadership of the Politburo Standing Committee which Deng Xiaoping put into place following the death of Mao Zedong, the term “first among equals” was often used to describe China’s paramount leader.” And for me, Orwell’s Animal Farm maxim that some animals are more equal than others sprung to mind.

    And of course, there’s this, which may not be cited copiously in 9 Marks land as being wrestled with (e.g. how can I avoid ruling and exercising authority over congregants?), but seems apt — and the presence of this mindset would seem to be the mark of a healthy church:

    Luke 22:24-27: “And there was also a dispute among them which of them is thought to be the greatest. And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles rule over them, and those exercising authority over them are called benefactors. But you shall not be thus. Instead, the greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and the one leading, as the one serving. For who is greater, the one reclining or the one serving? Is not the one reclining? But I am in your midst as the One serving.”

  18. I have long been confounded by evangelical leaders who would argue against an infallible pope in Roman Catholicism and yet treat their own positions as above question by those who disagree. Their followers are lemmings who need to follow them over the cliff instead of being allowed to ask, “Wait, do you know where you’re going?”

    And why do members need to covenant with a church or a wife with a husband in matters that solely rest with an individual’s direct relationship with Christ? Last I checked, salvation and sanctification are not available through a fellow human being.

  19. What the bananas? They were baptized to “membership in the church of Jerusalem?”

    This mass baptism happened at Pentecost, when “God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven” were staying in Jerusalem (Acts 2:5) to celebrate the Festival of Weeks. And then go back home to Parthia, Mesopotamia, Egypt, etc. after the celebration. NOT commit to the as-of-yet-non-existent “church of Jerusalem.”

    I think it eminently more appropriate to call this the first mass commissioning of church planters and/or missionaries, given the wide dispersal of participants that was likely to happen after the festival was over.

    Leeman didn’t do his homework. This is in the VERY SAME CHAPTER that he is quoting from. He didn’t have to read very far back to get the appropriate context.

  20. “Exceptions exist but ordinary baptisms should be INTO church membership.”

    Exceptions exist? Sounds too much like “results may vary” which only makes me want to laugh.

    First question, is there more than one kind of baptism? ie are there EXTRAordinary baptisms? No? Didn’t think so.

    Second question, anyone know much about the Amish? In that community baptism is the ceremony where an adult is willingly initiated into the Amish church. To be clear an Amish person is not baptized into Jesus, but into a life of following the local bishop as he leads that local Amish community. This is the reason Amish communities can differ so much; each local bishop sets their own rules for community behavior. To be in the community is to be saved, to be excommunicated is to lose standing with God (Although no Amish person has assurance of salvation, but that’s a discussion for another day.). Seems to me Leeman’s fixation on setting and maintaining authority is no different than the Amish.

  21. Fisher: Seems to me Leeman’s fixation on setting and maintaining authority is no different than the Amish.

    The New Calvinists’ proper term is actually “New Puritans” because of that belief.

    But, I have to admit after knowing hundreds of New Calvinist men, that this is only about the third time I’ve heard any of them mention Jesus. So if women are supposed to know Jesus through men, I wouldn’t be going to these guys.

    But really, I think Jesus can probably manage just fine without them, as upset as that would make them.

  22. JDV: Instead, the governing principle is for the first among equals to possess a 50% voting block among a large group of elders.

    Wow, that’s interesting.

  23. I attended a seminary course taught by Jonathan on Baptist Polity. He is clueless to the harm caused by authoritarian 9Marks churches. They disobey Jesus. In their Puritan zeal to pull up the weeds, they pull up the wheat as well. Then they throw both into the fire. They truly believe that they “stand in the place of God” (as Dever claims in his book), while actually they lack discernment. I asked Jonathan about Zach Moore, a 2009 9Marks intern, 2010 9Marks staff member, and 2011-2012 pastoral assistant as at CHBC, who has left the faith and claims to be an atheist. And I asked him about me, who was the victim of a 9Marks excommunication for defending a godly friend who was excommunicated from my church. Basically, he has no answer. You won’t find Zach Moore on the whitewashed list of former CHBC interns. Not good PR, I guess.

  24. JDV: “first among equals”

    While the new reformers scramble to be the most powerful and influential in the New Calvinist kingdom, Jesus still shouts from Heaven “the last shall be first, and the first last” in ‘My’ Kingdom. The NeoCals just don’t get it.

  25. ishy: this is only about the third time I’ve heard any of them mention Jesus

    In the strange religious world of New Calvinism, church leaders talk a lot about “God”, with only occasional reference to Jesus, and nary a word about the Holy Spirit. Icons like Calvin and Piper get more air time in NeoCal sermons than the precious name of Jesus.

  26. IMO there’s a lot of theological assumption in that quote from WCF that leads the OP. It’s a common view, that the only context that matters to the interpretation of Scripture is the rest of the Scriptures. “Clear passages interpret obscure passages” is a bedrock principle of protestant interpretation. It’s not clear to me, however, how one would establish that a text that is clear meaning is unquestionably relevant to a text whose meaning is obscure.

    We lack most of the context (the knowledge that was possessed by both author and recipient of the NT letters, for example), and looking for it elsewhere in the biblical texts is not a guarantee that one will find everything one would like to have, or that what one does find is relevant.

    One could wonder whether this principle is itself rooted in Scripture; I know of no texts that prove it — it’s a theological assumption about the nature of the Scriptures and God’s purposes in them. As such, it’s no more infallible that those theological assumptions.

    And it’s not clear that it leads to a “single” answer to the meaning of obscure texts.

    I think it’s often best to simply recognize that “we don’t know”, and not insist on finding an answer to every difficulty.

    Here’s a long-standing example that, as far as I know, does not have an unambiguous answer from the Biblical text: in Jesus’ famous saying about “offering his life a ransom for many”, from whom did Jesus envision his death would ransom people?

    Ransomed from God? from the Devil?

    My favorite answer is “from pagan Imperial Rome.”

    But there is no definitive proof from elsewhere in the biblical texts.

    I think we should have a sparser, less elaborate, humbler theology.

  27. Wild Honey: He didn’t have to read very far back to get the appropriate context.

    But of course the Biblical illiterates sitting in NeoCal pews wouldn’t catch this. Their leaders know this and use it to their advantage. It’s easy to fool religious fools … New Calvinism wouldn’t exist if they weren’t in such abundance in the American church. When the masses don’t read the Bible themselves and pray for the Holy Spirit to teach them, a good communicator can get them to believe anything = New Calvinism.

  28. SMull: Last I checked, salvation and sanctification are not available through a fellow human being.

    “There is salvation in no one else but Jesus, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)

  29. Samuel Conner: One could wonder whether this principle is itself rooted in Scripture; I know of no texts that prove it — it’s a theological assumption about the nature of the Scriptures and God’s purposes in them.

    True. And “sola scriptura” itself is refuted by scripture.

  30. Samuel Conner: it’s often best to simply recognize that “we don’t know”

    In digging through Scripture to get a clearer interpretation for a certain passage, I’ve hit dead ends and had to put things in the “Great Mystery” category … to be revealed later.

    When I was a young man, I was intrigued by the long wilderness journey of God’s people after exiting Egypt … they wandered for 40 years on what should have been a relatively short trip to the promised land! I kept asking myself “Why?!” Then one day I ran across Deuteronomy 8:2:

    “You shall remember always all the ways which the Lord your God has led you these forty years in the wilderness, so that He might humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart”

    How long have I wandered in my Christian journey until I knew what was in my heart. I’ve been humbled and tested more than once.

  31. Ken F (aka Tweed): You’ll be excited to know it’s available in ESV.

    Darn it! Do the NeoCals have to ruin everything?! I don’t believe Dr. Thompson would be excited about this development.

  32. SMull: treat their own positions as above question by those who disagree

    Worship the Dear Leader, that’s motive, for him to do whatever, anything his ego, desire, lust pleases.
    Overpay the Dear Leader, that’s the means to do anything.
    Not hold Dear Leader accountable for his behavior, that’s opportunity for him to have license for ongoing patterns of criminality.

    Any wonder why there are criminals in the pulpits, in leadership? They’ve been handed carte blanche means, motive, opportunity, the three elements of crime.

  33. Ava Aaronson: Worship the Dear Leader … Overpay the Dear Leader … Not hold Dear Leader accountable

    The religious racket is perhaps the most criminal of all. A prosperous safe harbor for bad-boy-preacher-boys with a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a bag of gimmicks.

  34. Ken F (aka Tweed): True. And “sola scriptura” itself is refuted by scripture.

    Thank you! Throughout this discussion, I’ve been biting my tongue. I’m so glad someone else said it. 😀

  35. Dale Rudiger: I asked Jonathan about Zach Moore, a 2009 9Marks intern, 2010 9Marks staff member, and 2011-2012 pastoral assistant as at CHBC, who has left the faith and claims to be an atheist.

    Thanks for your comment, Dale. I have had several email exchanges with Zach Moore. Your statement about him is correct. I had the following email exchange with Zach:

    May 27th, 2020

    Hi Zach,

    This is Todd Wilhelm and I write a blog called “Thou Art The Man.” I hope you are well. You may recall that 2 years ago we exchanged comments on an article about Mark Dever and 9Marks. I would like to know if you can give me an estimate of how long it was from the time you left CHBC because of your becoming an atheist until the time your name was removed from the CHBC Intern List?

    I ask because Anthony Moore remains on the CHBC former intern list even though he was fired from the Village Church in January 2017 due to being a sexual predator, and then fired from Cedarville University in April 2020 for the same reason.

    I assume Dever knew of the firing of Moore from the Village Church and I know he is aware of Moore’s firing from Cedarville University.

    Thanks,

    Todd
    ——————
    May 27th, 2020

    Hi Todd,

    I remember. I don’t remember the exact timing but I’d say I was removed within a matter of weeks.
    ——————————-

    Anthony Moore was fired from the Village Church in January 2017, he was fired from Cedarville University in April 2020. He was not removed from the Capitol Hill Baptist Church past intern list until sometime between October 13, 2020 and October 19, 2020.

    Think about this for a minute.

    Dever removed a guy from the past intern list who announced he was an atheist in a matter of weeks. Yet a guy who committed multiple felonies by recording videos of his friend in the shower remained on Dever’s past intern list for nearly 4 years!

    Why?

    I have my suspicions as to why, perhaps someday they will come to light.

  36. Fisher: an Amish person is not baptized into Jesus, but into a life of following the local bishop as he leads that local Amish community. … To be in the community is to be saved, to be excommunicated is to lose standing with God

    I’m sure what follows is oversimplified: as I understand it, young unbaptized Amish are considered “innocents” in God’s eyes and are therefore not hellbound if they tragically die before adult baptism.

    Generations of my family have baptized babies in Lutheran, Methodist, Episcopal, Presbyterian, and Roman Catholic churches. A term used in many of our baptismal rites for all ages is “marked as Christ’s own forever.” For infant baptism, this represents the commitment of family and congregation rather than the infant’s declaration of faith (faith is declared later, at confirmation).

    Think about that: marked as Christ’s own forever.

    Even though baptism is not necessary to salvation, and some Christian groups do not baptize at all, I greatly prefer to view it as part of a Christian’s identity, rather than as a gateway to local 9Marx discipline (or Amish for that matter).

    The Amish link between baptism and obligation to the community hearkens back to the early church. In most churches I have attended, sacraments (other than ordination) do not confer congregational duties. Opportunities to serve are mentioned in the announcements, or sometimes people are politely asked to take on a responsibility. I dearly hope that 9Marx and kindred churches do not force baptism on people in order to press-gang needed volunteers.

  37. Fisher: First question, is there more than one kind of baptism? ie are there EXTRAordinary baptisms? No? Didn’t think so.

    Some Christian groups have baptism of blood which means someone who publicly accepts Christianity but is killed for that avowal before receiving a water baptism.

  38. Samuel Conner: in Jesus’ famous saying about “offering his life a ransom for many”, from whom did Jesus envision his death would ransom people?

    This is from Mark 10. According to Mark’s presentation in chapters 1-9, what do the many (Greek “polus”) need to be set free from? Sin, guilt, unclean hearts, disease, Satan, unclean spirits, wicked leaders, fruitlessness, natural disasters, faithlessness, futile traditions (which do not effectively deal with sin) – in short, the condition of an adulterous and sinful generation (8:38). See further Gk “polus” in Mk 1:34; 2:15; 3:7-11; 6:34; 9:14 with 19; 10:45; 14:24.

  39. Erp,

    Baptism of blood is not a sacrament of the church, though. It’s a recognition that a Christian was martyred before the person had a chance to receive the sacrament of baptism (by water). Or did you mean something else…?

  40. Leah Jacobs: Hey Jonathan Leeman, how about if the wife recognizes Jesus because she is a Christ follower rather than a husband follower?

    ^That made me laugh (and said pretty much what I was thinking, but much better and more succinctly.)

    Leah Jacobs: How arrogant and completely belittling that you would think the only way a woman would know Christ is through a man.

    That.

  41. Samuel Conner: Ransomed from God? from the Devil?

    This is the question that resulted in the ransom theory of the atonement that apparently was popular in the west until Amselm of Canterbury rejected it and proposed the moral satisfaction theory. That paved the way for Calvin’s penal substitution theory. Christians in the east never developed an atonement theory – they just believed in the fact of the atonement without trying to explain how it happened. Its’s more of a belief in it rather than a belief about it. As you stated, we are better off with a “sparser, less elaborate, humbler theology.” New Calvinism certainly cannot be accused of being too humble or not elaborate enough.

  42. LInn: a single never-married woman

    When a New Calvinist stands before the Judgment Seat and gets a glimpse of Heaven behind it, they will see many single never-married women standing among the angelic host. Whosoever will may come.

  43. Leah Jacobs: How arrogant and completely belittling that you would think the only way a woman would know Christ is through a man.

    I guess no one told Mary Magdalene that.

  44. Erp,

    I had never heard of that category, although seven of my personal acquaintances were martyred for their faith. And tragically a colleague has just confirmed (through three separate sources) of approximately 70 afghan brothers and sisters who were martyred for their faith by the Taliban last week. In the face of such horrors I am reminded why the discussions we have here are so important. We do not want to submit to or and encourage the rise of “Christian Taliban” where a small number of extremist men think they have the right to control everyone else. That leads to death.

    As for me this discussion about blood baptism convicts me to pray daily for God to deliver our brothers and sisters in Afghanistan.

  45. LInn: I also wonder how I, as a single never-married woman, would recognize my Savior without a husband to show me who He is.

    This is quite a contrast with the early church, where singleness and virginity were highly valued – for both men and women. If you read a list if ancient women saints you will get overwhelmed by the abundance of virgins. I’m not arguing for either extreme, but this does show how out of touch New Calviniam is with ancient Christianity. They are assigning spiritual value to a factor that is entirely cultural and relative.

  46. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I believe it’s going to be decent enough for a protest at Mark Driscoll’s church of “Where’s Jesus?” tomorrow.

    I so admire your nerve and initiative in doing these protests!

  47. Ken F (aka Tweed): singleness and virginity were highly valued – for both men and women.

    “Maiden” used to cover both states of being for women, and there was/is similar ambiguity in other languages. Preachers often omit this, and distort it.

    Another lost distinction is between virginity and celibacy. Roman Catholics understand the difference, but Protestants tend to assume they are and must be synonymous.

    But you’re making a further overlooked point. There has been so much toxic emphasis on virginity that we’ve lost sight of valuing single people.

    Meanwhile marriage has almost become an idol in some American churches.

    If churches valued everyone equally, they would discover that people in different marital states, and different stages of life, all offer things of worth. The two most prominent office volunteers in our church are older widows. They have tremendous skill and life experience, and choose to give vast amounts of time.

  48. Friend: If churches valued everyone equally, they would discover that people in different marital states, and different stages of life, all offer things of worth.

    That needs to be shouted from the rooftop … from every church roof across America!

  49. Leah Jacobs: Hey Jonathan Leeman, how about if the wife recognizes Jesus because she is a Christ follower rather than a husband follower? Guessing that’s a novel thought for you. How arrogant and completely belittling that you would think the only way a woman would know Christ is through a man.

    I had all kinds of crazy thoughts when I read Leeman’s remark ……
    Are all single women doomed?
    Are women who are married to men who are not Christians doomed?
    (Are only 9Marks men “true” Christians???)
    So Jesus is a savior only to the male population….. and He pawned saving women off on the imperfect men?
    Can I lead my dogs to Jesus?

    Females outnumber males in the USA, and more women attend church than men, so would practicing polygamy be a proper Christian thing to do in order to “ lead women to Christ”? Maybe that’s why Solomon had so many wives.

  50. Max: “I believe that future generations of Christians will view 9Marx in the same negative light as they now view the Shepherding Movement”

    They say you’re as sick as your secrets. The church is terribly sick. Lots of dirt under the church rug, particularly in the pastor’s study.

  51. Dale Rudiger: They truly believe that they “stand in the place of God” (as Dever claims in his book),

    Where does Dever claim that? That’s quite a claim! I’d love to have more info.

  52. Question for any Australians who may be reading:

    My husband (who has paid attention to conspiracy theories and, in my opinion, been easily led) believes that,

    “Australian society is breaking down. Australia has gone full-on c0mmuni$t. The whole country is under a Draconian lockdown, and trucks are now blocking all the main routes of transportation.”

    how accurate are these statements?

  53. drstevej: I’m Back on Line after Hurricane Ida blew through.

    Well gall-dang, I knew you could type more than just ‘1’ in the comment box.

  54. Paul K: Where does Dever claim that? That’s quite a claim! I’d love to have more info.

    I’d like to see it (if true) cited too.

  55. Friend: But you’re making a further overlooked point. There has been so much toxic emphasis on virginity that we’ve lost sight of valuing single people.

    I could never understand what the big deal is with virginity.

  56. Dale Rudiger: They truly believe that they “stand in the place of God” (as Dever claims in his book),

    I always knew that these guys have an over-inflated view of themselves, but this takes the cake (if true).

  57. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Females outnumber males in the USA, and more women attend church than men, so would practicing polygamy be a proper Christian thing to do in order to “ lead women to Christ”? Maybe that’s why Solomon had so many wives.

    As I’ve commented before, these guys are scared-you-know-whatless of the primal power of women. So is it any wonder they conjure up all manner of fanciful horse-poo-poo from the Bible in order to support their shtick?

  58. Samuel Conner,

    “I think we should have a sparser, less elaborate, humbler theology.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    sounds mighty good to me.

    and sounds like the opposite of job creation and industry-growth.

    which i’m sure would be a good thing.

  59. Heather:
    Wild Honey,

    “What the bananas?”. Love it.Gonna have to start using that phrase myself.

    I have young kids. It’s hard to predict which words and phrases they’ll latch onto. This helps me avoid awkward phone calls from their teachers!

  60. Wild Honey,

    “what the bananas”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    that’s great! “wtb!”

    here are some expletives my daughter started saying when she was 4 (for additional options):

    “oh mayonnaise!”

    or,

    “Bammo’s!”

    and when she really wanted to cause a scandal,

    “toilet!”

  61. Friend: “Maiden” used to cover both states of being for women, and there was/is similar ambiguity in other languages. Preachers often omit this, and distort it.

    I was not trying to open a discussion on the differences between virginity amd celibacy. Rather, I was attempting to show how much Leeman and this movement denigrate what used to be extolled, which shows that his standard is cultural rather than authentically Christian. I am not saying either extreme is right or valuable, I only intended to show the contrast. I apologize if I offended anyone by not being more clear.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_(title)

  62. From the 3rd edition:

    Pg. 37: “we stand in the place of God”
    Pg. 60: “it is appropriate for us to gather together and listen to one who is standing in the place of God”

  63. “There is something appropriate about us meeting together to listen to one who is standing in the place of God giving His Word to us, and to which we contribute nothing other than our hearing and heeding.”

    Apparently Apostle Mark Dever has received the Magisterium. He is teaching from the Catholic Catechism:

    87. Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles “He who hears you, hears me,” the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directions that their pastors give them in different forms.

  64. Ken F (aka Tweed): I only intended to show the contrast.

    Your point was clear and excellent. It got me thinking. I wasn’t offended, and I hope what I added also does not cause offense.

  65. Dale Rudiger,

    To Dale and the others who provided the sources, thanks! I think Dever’s error in these claims is that he is operating on presumption, claiming something to be true (that the pastor has been given authority by God) when he does not know if that is actually true or not. Dever doesn’t know how authority works.

    There are so many people who claim to have been appointed directly by God to do whatever they’re doing (preaching, counseling, leading a church, etc…), but I think those types of claims belong only to Christ (appointed and sent by God the Father) and Christ’s apostles (appointed and sent by Christ).

    I wrote a short article about my ideas on healthy authority. But here’s the difference between me and Dever: I’ll let YOU decide if there’s any merit to what I’m saying – I don’t claim to have been given divine authority!

    https://link.medium.com/1PIouHZVijb

  66. Ken F (aka Tweed): This is the question that resulted in the ransom theory of the atonement that apparently was popular in the west until Amselm of Canterbury rejected it and proposed the moral satisfaction theory. That paved the way for Calvin’s penal substitution theory. Christians in the east never developed an atonement theory – they just believed in the fact of the atonement without trying to explain how it happened. Its’s more of a belief in it rather than a belief about it. As you stated, we are better off with a “sparser, less elaborate, humbler theology.” New Calvinism certainly cannot be accused of being too humble or not elaborate enough.

    I believe it is misleading and inaccurate to say that Anselm “paved the way” for Penal Substitution. That’s a charge commonly made in Orthodox polemics. But, then, all sorts of wild charges are commonly made in Orthodox polemics.

  67. Dale Rudiger: “There is something appropriate about us meeting together to listen to one who is standing in the place of God giving His Word to us, and to which we contribute nothing other than our hearing and heeding.” (Mark Dever)

    Contribute nothing?! Not according to Scripture:

    “When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.” (1 Corinthians 14:26)

    Whose job is the ministry? Every believer has a part!

  68. Paul K: he is operating on presumption

    Scripture speaks much about arrogance and the sin of presumption. New Calvinism has a bad case of both.

  69. Samuel Conner: I think we should have a sparser, less elaborate, humbler theology.

    Yeah, like the one the early church had which turned the world upside down for Christ!

  70. Ken F (aka Tweed): “There is something appropriate about us meeting together to listen to one who is standing in the place of God giving His Word to us, and to which we contribute nothing other than our hearing and heeding.”

    Ha! Who needs the printed Word, or even literacy, when we have Mark Dever! …. ???

  71. Muff Potter: I could never understand what the big deal is with virginity.

    It’s a tribal thing Muff.
    Being certain that no other male DNA has been injected, thereby ensuring that your own will carry on, and not the other guy’s.
    Better an ensured virginity than having to go a-slaughtering a generation or two later.

  72. Catholic Gate-Crasher: I believe it is misleading and inaccurate to say that Anselm “paved the way” for Penal Substitution.

    I came to that conclusion on my own before I discovered orthodoxy, because just about every reformed explanation of penal substitution traces its development through Anselm. That might not be fair on their part, but it is certainly widespread. And both theories require a type of infinite satisfaction that had never been proposed before Anselm, so they have that in common.

  73. Friend: and I hope what I added also does not cause offense.

    No, I did not feel offended. I just wondered if I had offended, so I thank you for your reply. I still don’t know what to make of the contrasts between then and now. And I don’t known how much it matters.

  74. Muff Potter: Muff Potter: I could never understand what the big deal is with virginity.

    It’s a tribal thing Muff.
    Being certain that no other male DNA has been injected, thereby ensuring that your own will carry on, and not the other guy’s.

    Not just tribal.
    A male bear will kill any existing cubs the female bear has before mounting her.
    A male lion taking over a pride will kill any existing cubs before mounting all HIS lionesses.
    “NOT MY DNA!”

  75. Max: Contribute nothing?! Not according to Scripture:

    “When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.” (1 Corinthians 14:26)

    This also fits with the Jewish tradition that there can be multiple interpretations as each Rabbi doing the interpreting can read the same passage from different viewpoints and have slightly-different insights about it. (And then they hash it out — “Two Jews, Three Opinions.”)

    Judaism is s very earthy faith. There is always a human angle involved; it’s not a Party Line delivered word-for-word directly from Heaven in Kynge Jaymes Englyshe or classical Meccan Arabic.

  76. Catholic Gate-Crasher: But, then, all sorts of wild charges are commonly made in Orthodox polemics.

    Orthodox can be just as Fundy (and just as arrogant about their Theological Correctness) as any Calvinist or Fundy.

  77. Friend: Meanwhile marriage has almost become an idol in some American churches.

    “Almost”?
    You ever heard of “Salvation by Marriage Alone”?

    I’m RCC and though we can get on some weird tangents about virginity (especially when Mary’s in the mix), you don’t have to ring a warning bell and shout “Unclean!” for being single and older than 18.

  78. Max: Most New Calvinist belief and practice bears no resemblance to the early church.

    Why should it?
    Like Mohammed, Calvin was the later Prophet with the Revelation superseding all previous ones.

  79. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I believe it’s going to be decent enough for a protest at Mark Driscoll’s church of “Where’s Jesus?” tomorrow.

    “Where’s Jssus”?
    Thrown under the Trinity Church bus, just like the Mars Hill bus.

  80. Samuel Conner: Ransomed from God? from the Devil?

    My favorite answer is “from pagan Imperial Rome.”

    Like something I saw on History Channel before it went Von Daniken (“All Ancient Aliens, All The Time”):

    The show was on the Book of Revelation from a historical perspective, approaching it from a Preterist POV. At the end, the host is standing among some stones and concludes “But one of the Prophecies HAS come true.” The camera zooms back to show he is standing in what’s left of the Forum of Rome, literally no stone standing atop another. “Rome HAS Fallen.”

  81. SMull: I have long been confounded by evangelical leaders who would argue against an infallible pope in Roman Catholicism and yet treat their own positions as above question by those who disagree.

    Not only that, Speaking Ex Cathedra claiming Absolute Infallibility far greater than that claimed by ANY actual Pope.

  82. Ken F (aka Tweed): because just about every reformed explanation of penal substitution traces its development through Anselm.

    Not just reformed, other variants of Christianity will claim that PSA is taught directly from Scripture, Anselm or not.

  83. Friend: A term used in many of our baptismal rites for all ages is “marked as Christ’s own forever.” For infant baptism, this represents the commitment of family and congregation rather than the infant’s declaration of faith (faith is declared later, at confirmation).

    I like the wording “marked as Christ’s own forever”….and I like that you wrote For infant baptism, this represents the commitment of family and congregation rather than the infant’s declaration of faith.

    I would, however (and no offence intended), quibble a bit about the phrase “faith is declared later, at confirmation” (although some of my thoughts behind my quibble reflect things that have caused both the Church and the “church” endless debate(s) 🙂
    ).

  84. Dale Rudiger: “He who hears you, hears me,”

    Full text: “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.” Luke 10:16

    Boy does this scripture get abused by a lot of people, including Catholics and the man we are talking about. Go back up to the first verse. Jesus picks 72, and ONLY 72, and sends them ahead of Him. He is going to each town in the flesh, so that those who do not listen to the 72 are not going to listen to Him either later for they carry the same message. To claim that you are #73 is a bold and incredibly stupid claim. It makes me think of these other words of Jesus, “For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.” Matt. 24:5

    What Jesus is saying is that many will tell people that Jesus is indeed the Messiah and yet will deceive them with what else they have to say. The Pharisees claimed to be speaking for God in this exact same way, yet Jesus calls them hypocrites. This is one case where using other scriptures does shed light on claims. There is a valid principle that when interpretations of one scripture flat out contradict others then the interpretation is invalid. If theologians only followed that their books would be a lot smaller.

  85. Muff Potter: other variants of Christianity will claim that PSA is taught directly from Scripture, Anselm or not.

    I kept getting pressed to read “Pierced for Our Transgressions” because it is the gold standard for proving PSA. So I finally read it at the beginning of the pandemic. Nothing undermined PSA for me as much as that book. The scholarship is astonishingly poor, as is the eisegesis. The section on church history is so badly twisted that the only explanation is fraud. It convinced me that the theory is much weaker than I had initially thought.

  86. Friend: Meanwhile marriage has almost become an idol in some American churches

    This ties in with the emphasis on authority in these churches. Someone always has to be in charge of the “lesser” ones. In patriarchy (biblical or otherwise), women need to be kept under control. Speaking as one of those never-married females, I think that’s why I’ve never had a clear place in church structure. Under whose direct authority am I? Who will prevent me from being a loose cannon and actually saying what I think? That’s far too dangerous.

  87. researcher: I would, however (and no offence intended), quibble a bit about the phrase “faith is declared later, at confirmation”

    Thank you, I see that that is inexact. I put it that way because many folks are taught and taught and taught that infant baptism is wrong because babies don’t know what they believe. To that I say, sacraments are mysteries to most of us, and no amount of Sunday school will define them all.

    Since the BBC is the ultimate authority on such things (<—humor), here's a link to some very simple explanations of confirmation:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/ritesrituals/confirmation_1.shtml

  88. SMull: women need to be kept under control.

    When we were newlyweds, one time I got slightly upset about something at a family gathering. One of my older male relatives buttonholed my husband and said, “You’re not doing your job!”

    My husband asked, “What’s my job?”

    “Controlling your wife’s emotions!”

    Afterward hubby and I laughed and laughed about this. Honestly, I had forgotten that my parents’ generation somehow thought husbands were capable of controlling wives’ emotions. Trust me, a lot of the men and women we knew were completely wacky, far beyond human control!

  89. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Mohammed, Calvin, Joseph Smith, Elron Hubbard…

    Dear Leaders for every gen. A couple of current Evangelical Dear Leaders come to mind, too.

    Qualification of a Dear Leader? Power, vice, & acquisition of resources w/o accountability to those who supply resources and grant power, as well as personal vice w/o social consequences.

  90. Headless Unicorn Guy: there can be multiple interpretations

    My pastor was talking about today’s Gospel, the healing of the deaf/mute man, and several times he mentioned more than one possible interpretation, from the books he reads, and then said, “I don’t know which is right, and it doesn’t really matter.”

  91. Ken F (aka Tweed): I kept getting pressed to read “Pierced for Our Transgressions” because it is the gold standard for proving PSA.

    I just ordered it.
    I’ll give it a read.

  92. Muff Potter: I just ordered it.

    I’m wondering how your markups of the book will compare with mine. The book reminds me of one I read many years ago: “Jesus: Prophet of Islam.” The author read into bible verses what the verses do not say, and quoted patristics out of context to prove that Jesus was only human and not divine. It was very compelling until I investigated all the quotes for myself. It’s exactly the same with this book.

    The PSA advocates would be much more honest to admit that the patristics did not teach it, and then explain why they were wrong. Calvin took a similar approach with the topic of free will. Here is what he says in his institutes about the patristics’ teaching on free will:

    Moreover although the Greek Fathers, above others, and especially Chrysostom, have exceeded due bounds in extolling the powers of the human will, yet all ancient theologians, with the exception of Augustine, are so confused, vacillating, and contradictory on this subject, that no certainty can be obtained from their writings.

    He did not explain why they were wrong, but he at least had the honesty not to put words in their mouths.

    9Marx does pretty much the same twisting with their teachings on authority, discipline, membership, gender roles, etc. Perhaps fact checking is a lost skill among their followers?

  93. Sort of on topic: I was clued in that if you go to Al Mohler’s website, there is a video of a conversation between him and a retired Catholic archbishop. I put it on to listen, made it maybe 20 minutes into it before shutting it down because the content was not being presented in an interesting way, at least to me. BUT the closeups of AM were chilling to me. He looks absolutely dead in the eyes. Dead. Even when he sounds somewhat animated about the topic, his face is liking looking at a cadaver. Could be ill health, just how he looks, or sign of spiritual issues, who knows, but I found it absolutely chilling.

  94. Friend: many folks are taught and taught and taught that infant baptism is wrong because babies don’t know what they believe. To that I say, sacraments are mysteries to most of us, and no amount of Sunday school will define them all.

    That.

    Friend: here’s a link to some very simple explanations of confirmation:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/ritesrituals/confirmation_1.shtml

    Thank you for the link to the article, Friend. 🙂

    There was some interesting information in it….I don’t know enough to evaluate the accuracy of the article, but I do know enough to know that a short blurb at the beginning of the article saying they were generalizing / condensing / whatever would have been helpful to people not used to the BBC (UK) style of writing (and who might believe everything in the article). And including some kind of source / resource list would help those of us who wanted to do further research to see if a) they (the BBC (UK) and / or their sources / resources) were factually accurate, and b) might be interested to more details.

  95. Ken F (aka Tweed): 9Marx does pretty much the same twisting with their teachings on authority, discipline, membership, gender roles, etc. Perhaps fact checking is a lost skill among their followers?

    Daily Bible reading and prayer are lost disciplines among many followers of Christ. Thus, they have no fact-checking ability when error is proclaimed from the pulpit. 21st century churchgoers are easy targets for New Calvinism and 9Marx false teaching.

  96. Max: 21st century churchgoers are easy targets for New Calvinism and 9Marx false teaching.

    TGC’s FB page very recently recycled this article on authority by Leeman:
    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/king-david-final-words-godly-authority-2-samuel-23/

    Quotes from the article:

    “He gave churches the permission slip to wield the keys in matters of doctrine and membership (Matt. 16:13–20; 18:15–20; 28:18–20).”

    “How will you use whatever authority God has given you? Will you use it like Satan wants you to use it—to the detriment of others and your own self-indulgence? Or will you wield it like the perfect Son—for the growth and good of all whom you would lead?”

    They have convinced themselves that the authority they take is for the good of others. This quote from CS Lewis is applicable:
    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

  97. SMull: I have long been confounded by evangelical leaders who would argue against an infallible pope in Roman Catholicism and yet treat their own positions as above question by those who disagree.

    So true! Some of the popes seem more reasonable and open to discussion than some evangelical leaders (*cough* MacArthur)

  98. Max: Daily Bible reading and prayer are lost disciplines among many followers of Christ. Thus, they have no fact-checking ability when error is proclaimed from the pulpit.

    Please bear with me as I assert that the Bible was not produced with the intention of being fact-checked.

    Yes, people need to read the Bible and compare it with sermons. The pulpiteers of today’s 9Marx, SBC, and beyond are using bad translations, quoting out of context, cherry picking, preaching in bad faith, warping the meaning, and hurling proof texts in all directions. Reading the Bible would set believers straight (assuming they used a decent translation and looked into some of the ancient texts).

    But we can’t fact-check much in the sense of finding independent documentary evidence of, say, the Song of Solomon. And I think that is fine.

    Faith is about meaning. We take something away from faith when we impose journalistic or scientific standards on our ancient sacred texts. Our Scripture is ample for guiding us in the Christian life.

    To use an earthly example, I don’t fact-check the beautiful, loving message my child wrote inside my birthday card. I read the message and treasure it, and the message builds my love of that child.

  99. Ken F (aka Tweed): They have convinced themselves that the authority they take is for the good of others.

    As HUG would say:
    “So what if I rack him till’ he dies, I will have saved his soul!”

  100. Ken F (aka Tweed): I’m wondering how your markups of the book will compare with mine.

    We’ll see.
    I would surmise that they have all their ducks (verses) in a row; a QED ‘proof’ that PSA is the only way to make sense of the Cross.

  101. Muff Potter: I would surmise that they have all their ducks (verses) in a row; a QED ‘proof’ that PSA is the only way to make sense of the Cross.

    Sounds like you already read it.

  102. The greatest 9Marx ™ commandment — Heb 13:17.
    The second is like unto it— Heb 10:25
    Again I can’t recommend enough the interview Leeman did with Dever and Schmucker about how they cleaned up the CHBC membership rolls. https://www.9marks.org/conversations/episode-149-on-cleaning-the-membership-rolls-part-1-with-matt-schmucker/ It illustrates how everything they do and teach about “membership” and “discipline” flows necessarily from their (mis)understanding and (mis)prioritizing these 2 verses,
    One tidbit— they asked everyone in the “membership” rolls to sign a statement of faith, and later a “covenant”. Some people did both, and they STILL excommunicated them due to failure to “attend”.

  103. Friend: Please bear with me as I assert that the Bible was not produced with the intention of being fact-checked.

    Yes, people need to read the Bible and compare it with sermons. The pulpiteers of today’s 9Marx, SBC, and beyond are using bad translations, quoting out of context, cherry picking, preaching in bad faith, warping the meaning, and hurling proof texts in all directions. Reading the Bible would set believers straight (assuming they used a decent translation and looked into some of the ancient texts).

    But we can’t fact-check much in the sense of finding independent documentary evidence of, say, the Song of Solomon. And I think that is fine.

    Faith is about meaning. We take something away from faith when we impose journalistic or scientific standards on our ancient sacred texts.

    That.

    Friend: Our Scripture is ample for guiding us in the Christian life.

    No offence intended, Friend, I just thought I’d add that the statement could potentially come across as a bit simplistic….

    Friend: To use an earthly example, I don’t fact-check the beautiful, loving message my child wrote inside my birthday card. I read the message and treasure it, and the message builds my love of that child.

    🙂

  104. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    Nice attempt to backtrack Ken. Chrysostom and Ignatius – as well as all the others I mentioned a few weeks ago when you made your nonsensical claim – appear to preach PSA. 🙂

  105. Lowlandseer: when you made your nonsensical claim

    That is very insulting. I have read every quote in context to check for myself. I am not uninformed. None of the patristics taught PSA. They discussed penalty for sins, they discussed God’s wrath, and they discussed substituonary sacrifice, but never in the context of Jesus satisfying the wrath of God by having the full fury of God’s wrath poured out on him. People have used their quotes in isolation to falsely make it look like they taught PSA, but none of them taught what John Calvin invented. If you want to believe otherwise, that is ok. Each person should figure this out for themselves if they think it is important.

  106. Paul K: I wrote a short article about my ideas on healthy authority. But here’s the difference between me and Dever: I’ll let YOU decide if there’s any merit to what I’m saying – I don’t claim to have been given divine authority!

    https://link.medium.com/1PIouHZVijb

    Thank you for the link to your article, Paul K. As you wrote in your comment (and in your article), I think an important thing to remember is healthy authority….and maybe I accidentally overlooked it in your article, what happens if a person (or people) need to break the chain of command (for example, to act as a whistleblower).

  107. JDV:
    But wait, there’s more: “In each local Harvest Bible Chapel (or Vertical Church), the Senior Pastor is an elder who is “first among equals” of the other elders within that local church. The church’s position on what this means is that “All elders are equal in authority but not necessarily equal in influence.” This is differentiated from plural eldership where unanimous voting occurs. Instead, the governing principle is for the first among equals to possess a 50% voting block among a large group of elders. …
    In the People’s Republic of China, during the collective leadership of the Politburo Standing Committee which Deng Xiaoping put into place following the death of Mao Zedong, the term “first among equals” was often used to describe China’s paramount leader.” And for me, Orwell’s Animal Farm maxim that some animals are more equal than others sprung to mind.

    This “first among equals” is also how Robert Morris describes his position among the elders at Gateway Church. In his book “The Blessed Church” he states the following (Chapter 27 under the sub-heading “Pastor’s Administrative Authority”, bracketed items are my own):

    “The senior pastor [Morris] functions as the chairman of the board [of Gateway Elders]. I [Morris] am in every sense an elder too — but a special kind of elder — one who is the chief among equals.”

  108. Neil Cameron (One Salient Oversight):
    There are a number of examples in Acts where a person is baptised immediately after conversion, without having a church to go to.

    One is the story of the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts 8, another is the Philippian Jailer in Acts 16.

    Notably, Simon the Magician was baptised (acts 8.16) prior to his apostasy.

    And (because of their belief that baptism is required for salvation) this is how Churches of Christ operate. If someone is coming down for salvation, they baptize them then and there. Dever would not agree with their doctrine (nor do I) but their practice is in line with Biblical accounts and it is not spoken against Scripturally (only by the doctrine of their lord and savior John Calvin can they do so).

  109. Mark R: “first among equals” is also how Robert Morris describes his position among the elders at Gateway Church

    Of course he would!

  110. linda: First among equals

    “Primus inter pares” under Christ but preeminent among men? This doctrine has been used and abused by many corners of Christendom for centuries.

  111. Wild Honey: elastigirl,

    That’s hilarious!

    I liked elastigirl’s daughter’s using the word “toilet”….kinda like a child saying the less-than-polite form of “oh poop”.

  112. Ken F (aka Tweed): Each person should figure this out for themselves if they think it is important.

    To me it is important, which is why I have figured it out for myself.
    There isn’t a court in the land that will punish an innocent person for the crimes of another, so why would God design and orchestrate the horrific death by torture of his beautiful Son on my behalf?
    It’s as ludicrous as it is monstrous, and yeah I know there’s a clobber verse for that too (1 Corinthians 1:18).
    The way I see it, the doctrine of PSA is something extrapolated out from the old Mosaic codes requiring shed-blood animal sacrifices for the sins of Israel, and applied to this here and now.
    The problem for me (and I know I’m not alone) is that PSA teaches human sacrifice, and on that basis alone, I cannot sign onto it, my conscience won’t let me.

  113. Mark R: And (because of their belief that baptism is required for salvation) this is how Churches of Christ operate.

    That custom definitely has a better provenance (like the Book of Acts) than The Altar Call.

  114. Muff Potter: To me it is important, which is why I have figured it out for myself.

    Same for me. It became important when I got labeled as a heretic for questioning it. PSA has fatal flaws in multiple areas: moral, biblical, logical, philosphical, theological, historical, to name a few in no particular order.

  115. As to first among equals: I first heard it from a Lutheran pastor in training. Once ordained, it morphed rapidly to FIRST among equals. Then in the SBC around the time preachers became pastors, and BROTHER Sam became Dr. Smith.

  116. Ken F (aka Tweed): It became important when I got labeled as a heretic for questioning it.

    I was told by a Calvary Chapel guy that if I don’t change my tune, I’ll be cast into the Lake of Fire along with the Beast and the False Prophet on Judgement Day.

  117. Muff Potter: I was told by a Calvary Chapel guy that if I don’t change my tune, I’ll be cast into the Lake of Fire along with the Beast and the False Prophet on Judgement Day.

    Will the False Prophet be from Calvary Chapel?

  118. Muff Potter: if I don’t change my tune, I’ll be cast into the Lake of Fire

    When another member of my college fellowship accused me of witchcraft, I was terrified of what he could do to me. I was not afraid of damnation, because I knew he was wrong.

    Nowadays, accusations that I’m “not a Christian” just offend me. They’re a handy way tp disregard me and anything I might have to offer. OK, I’ll just hang out with people who don’t act like that.

    I don’t think threats cause anyone to repent. They just make people miserable, while excluding them. In the, uh, best case, someone might pretend to repent in order to fit in while either figuring things out or hiding the (perceived) problem.

    None of this leads to the building of a healthy congregation.

  119. Friend,

    I think it all boils down to just plain old tribal politics.
    You’ll see the same thing in Fred Flintstone’s Loyal Order of Water Buffaloes.

    So why did the other member accuse you of Witchcraft?
    Did you turn a salamander into a toad?
    Did you brew up a love potion for horny Hank so that he could pursue Missy Mulligan with some measure of success?

  120. Muff Potter: So why did the other member accuse you of Witchcraft?

    I looked at him across the room, and he noticed.

    That was enough.

    He spent a lot of time identifying “witches” on campus. I think they were all pretty and Jewish.

    I’ve told before about accidentally being around an exorcism. The guy who considered me a witch was an SBC preacher’s kid. The PK “cast demons” out of a student who was a Presbyterian. The Presbyterian had previously smoked weed before finding Jesus, and the demons supposedly got in through those “little doors” that Robert Morris likes to talk about.

    Our college fellowship had every problem, including the imaginary ones. We did help in the community, but spent way too much time making one another fearful.

  121. Friend: He spent a lot of time identifying “witches” on campus. I think they were all pretty and Jewish.

    Sure, we can laugh it off and chalk it up to the usual whack-job elements in fundagelicalism, but by and large we can thank The Founders of our Nation for ensuring that these types of guys will never accrue the power they so desperately crave.

  122. Muff Potter,

    “So why did the other member accuse you of Witchcraft?”
    +++++++++++++

    i bet it was something like “she turned me into newt once!….i got better…”

    plausible deniability

  123. elastigirl: i bet it was something like “she turned me into newt once!….i got better…”

    Not wanting to start an argument, but I’m pretty sure it’s because she weighs the same us a duck.

  124. OMG these men are freaking whack jobs! I’m always amazed at what he number of what appears to be normal people who listen to these hacks!

  125. Shauna: OMG these men are freaking whack jobs!

    Yes, a multitude of religious whack jobs have been herded into NeoCal ranks it appears.

  126. linda: the closeups of AM (Al Mohler) were chilling to me. He looks absolutely dead in the eyes. Dead. Even when he sounds somewhat animated about the topic, his face is liking looking at a cadaver. Could be ill health, just how he looks, or sign of spiritual issues, who knows, but I found it absolutely chilling.

    Mohler had the same dead stare when he took over the presidency at SBTS in 1993 … lifeless … religious but spiritually destitute.

    A glimpse of the young Mohler: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk_VQgsjFz8&t=74s

  127. This is even clearer in Acts 4-5. In the NIV translation of Acts 4:-35, it says: “From time to time, those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales Again we have a rash of imperfect verbs here, this time explicitly reflected in the NIV’s ‘from time to time.’ The periodic selling of property confirms our interpretation of Acts 2:44 above. This was not a one-time divesture of all one’s possessions. The theme ‘according to need,’ reappears, too. Interestingly, what does not appear in this paragraph is any statement of complete equality among believers. Presumably, there was quite a spectrum, ranging from those who still held property which they had not sold all the way to those who were still living at a very basic level.

  128. Max: Yes, a multitude of religious whack jobs have been herded into NeoCal ranks it appears.

    Or (like the Book of Revelation), does NeoCal ranks tend to attract whack jobs?

    “It’s not so much that ‘power corrupts’ tas hat power tends to attract the already corrupt and the easily-corrupted.” — Frank Herbert

  129. Алина: Presumably, there was quite a spectrum, ranging from those who still held property which they had not sold all the way to those who were still living at a very basic level.

    Like any RL community, there was variety within the whole.

    Too many churches interpret “Community” as “Conformity” worthy of Mao-era China.
    I think Steve Taylor actually did a song about it — “I Want to Be a Clone”.