“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
John 13:34-35
Below is a recording of the live feed from the first service at the Grace Chapel in Franklin, TN. This occurred yesterday, August 29, 2021.
Sarah Berger and Steve Berger were senior pastors of Grace Chapel. Steve faced heavy criticism for his participation in the right-wing march in Washington D.C. on January 6, 2021, though he claims he was not among the crowd that stormed the Capitol, having returned to his hotel by 11:00 A.M.
In late January, Steve Berger said that he and his wife, Sarah Berger, would be leaving their roles as senior pastors.
“The time is right for Sarah and I to transition from the role and responsibilities of senior pastor, to the role and responsibilities of being the founding pastors of Grace Chapel,” Berger said. “I need to transition from leading the team, to encouraging, empowering and releasing them to lead all of the rest of us, including myself.” (Source)
Grace Chapel is the home church of Tennessee Governor Bill Lee and State Senator Jack Johnson.
There is more going on at Grace Chapel than power struggles and hurt feelings, way more, but I will get to that in a minute.
As you saw, the live feed came to a screeching halt. This is exactly as it played out Sunday morning. Then the second service was abruptly cancelled!
I did see a Tweet by an individual reportedly in attendance at the first service and this person said there was no altercation.
The really tragic story is the one related below in a very well written article on Medium. I had not heard anything about this until Sunday.
Please, please read this! I hope to write more on the story at a later date. As it is, I cannot improve on the work done below.
A Tennessee Girl Says Her Father Raped Her and Murdered Her Brother.
I would also suggest you read this article. Grace Chapel is attempting to shut Shannon Ashley up. She authored the above article on Medium.
Grace Chapel Church threatens legal action against blogger over ‘defamatory statements’
First?
what? 1
Our “governor” is Bill Lee and Jack Johnson is a state senator in TN, not a U.S. Senator. Though from 2018, a good background piece: https://www.memphisflyer.com/a-look-at-bill-lees-uber-conservative-home-church
Thanks for the corrections and link, Luckyforward. I made the corrections.
Perhaps it is just me, but I cannot get the Wayback Machine’s link to fully load.
There are many “ministers” and “ministries” in America that need to be cancelled. If they don’t implode, they explode … trampling the name of Jesus in the street.
Another site for info: https://www.williamsonhomepage.com/news/williamson-county-family-exchanges-litigation-over-accusations-of-child-abuse-murder/article_4e0c95c4-c890-11eb-a417-cf5b79d77d40.html
I couldn’t either.
It’s not just you. It loads the top pictures, then tries loading again…
That said, while there may have been a plan in place for the Bergers to transition out, but I think the transition was sped up after it became very clear that Steve Berger had lied about seeing Antifa at the January 6 insurrection. A quick search of the web shows that he made the statements on January 6 and was forced to apologize on January 7.
https://www.wsmv.com/news/governor-lees-pastor-apologizes-for-his-account-of-dc-riots/article_24a3a080-5156-11eb-9f75-371cdbbda8bd.html
I don’t think Steve Berger was forced out because he believed and promoted the Big Lie about the election–that it was stolen–but because he lied about who was at the insurrection. I believe that many people hold the same beliefs about the election that Berger did, and don’t truly acknowledge the current president. Some may even still believe that “God” is going to overthrow the government and install the former guy.
I took a look at Grace Chapel’s beliefs because I was trying to figure out if they were Pentecostal (no answer on that) and it’s clear they’re all in on complementarianism. And, while they don’t flat out state it, it’s clear they’re against transgender people, to wit:
I’m not a biologist, nor did I take it in college (I placed out) but I have to point out (just as I did with the 2017 Nashville Statement) that this language is incoherent as it fails to recognize the existence of intersex persons, people who have (for various reasons) characteristics of both sexes. To be clear, transgender and intersex are two different things, but this statement is just incoherent.
It’s clear that I’d be completely unwelcome at Grace Chapel, not just because I acknowledge biological reality, not just because I support my transgender friends, but because I’m vocally anti-complementarian.
Now, getting down to Grant and Gracie. *rubs face with hands* There’s something hinky going on, but I suspect we’re looking at the outworking of the idea that patriarchs own their children and children are just supposed to take it if their patriarch is prominent in the community. I know that’s horrifying, but I think that’s at work here. It makes me sick to say, but I don’t think Gracie and Angelia are going to get any justice because of the powers at work here.
I am “afraid” that were are going to see allot of similar “division”…. The depth of “political” mixing with “Christianity” in the US going to have allot of long term, painful, consequences…
Burwell Stark,
Thanks Burwell. Yes, I just noticed that. I tried loading another story from Medium and get similar results. It seems Medium may have done something that prevents stories on their platform from being saved to The Wayback Machine.
That.
That seems to be the take here in Nashville . . .
It’s no secret that an overwhelming majority of white ‘evangelicals’ are very much into right-wing politics.
Here in my Southern Calif. locale, it’s as true as the additive property of addition.
From my limited research I think Grace Chapel leans Pentecostal. They had Michael Brown speaking at their church last week on human sexuality (https://gracechapel.net/online-media/). I would liken Brown to the Baptists John Piper, although I don’t think Brown has any children famous for their TikTok videos!
As for complementarianism, based on a quote in this article I would say they are not all in, or at least were not when the Bergers were in control.
“The time is right for Sarah and I to transition from the role and responsibilities of senior pastor, to the role and responsibilities of being the founding pastors of Grace Chapel,”
It is very interesting “down South” that we may have churches with husband and wife pastors and the remaining church structure is often very complementarian.
Yeah, like unnecessary COVID deaths among church members who received anti-vax/anti-mask messages from their pulpits.
Max–sometimes I wonder how those anti vax pastors will manage when the butts are in the grave, not in the pew?
I don’t understand why pastors and founding members always think they should be treated as better than any other person in a church. Yes, they founded the church and were leading it for 27 years. But, so what? They are not infallible and are not supposed to be entitled to anything for this, other than the normal respect and consideration anyone else should receive in a church. I think this expectation is what is wrong at most Churches and ministries today, when the leadership considers themselves to be extra special. It is the opposite of what is Christ-like and what being a Christian is.
Berger was not forced out because of his political views or that he is an “Extremist Christian”. His views are applauded by the church.
Hmmm … they didn’t think that through, did they?!
Max,
When it is “fake news”, or “secular humanist, left wing plot”, they would not think of it because they know COVID is not that bad..
ANti-Vax Talk Radio hosts (wannabe heirs of Rush Limbaugh) seem to be dropping left and right:
https://digbysblog.net/2021/08/29/how-many-talkers-will-die-for-maga/
But it’s not going to make any difference.
The Dwarfs are for The Dwarfs, and Won’t Be Taken In.
Again, “THE DWARFS ARE FOR THE DWARFS!!! WE WON’T BE TAKEN IN!!!”
“And because they Won’t be Taken In, they can never be taken out.”
— Aslan of Narnia
Michsel Brown is definitely Charismatic. He was involved with the Brownsville Revival in the late 1990s. In the last few months, he’s had to call out some “prophets” for their false prophecies regarding the former guy. Brown is also virulently anti-LGBTQIA, which means he wouldn’t respect me as a human being.
I’m just going to go back to this statement from Grace Chapel’s beliefs:
I don’t know why, but this just *hurts*. It’s like God only cared about people being born the right sex (in which case, what about intersex people), but what about everything else?
I think it would *crush* me if I believed God made me the way I am. It’s easier to believe and deal with it if I’m made up of a combination of genetic, biological and social factors. But if I was told that God made me or gifted me with high functioning autism, major depressive disorder and asexuality, I would be profoundly devastated. Because this is not a life I’d wish on anyone.
So it hurts when someone says “God wonderfully and immutably creates…” I honestly hope that’s not the case.
Im safe from Ida
Praise the Lord!
Muslin–please know not everyone is that cruel! We used to live in a town known for medical treatment of those with a whole variety of sex/gender biological/mental/emotional differences. The first thing that we had to learn was to chuck the stereotypes. We had to learn not everyone is born xx or xy, and shoot we don’t have sensitive enough testing to know for sure how many may be chimeras. We had to learn some are apparently born xx and that is how they function and feel. Same with xy. But some folks are xxxy, some are xxy, some xyy, and I in the last 20 years we learned even more such as xx but no estrogen receptors, etc. Second thing we had to learn is that within how an individual is born there can be a whole host of how they feel in the interior life. And then within that combo, there are those are living with what they understand of that and those “in rebellion” as one gay friend put it. (She meant if you do not have a genetic issue, if you are not attracted to the same gender, but choose to live gay to yank society’s chain.) And yes, there are a few in that category also.
So how about this idea: back in Eden yeah it was supposed to be male and female, but we goofed that up and now some are born “not”, some are born with asthma, some are blind, some of us have odd colored eyes or hair compared to the norm, etc. We are all fearfully and wonderfully made but with a whole host of conditions that may frustrate, sicken, anger, confuse, delight, encourage, or whatever us. Genetic roulette.
But you are STILL fearfully and wonderfully made just as you are! And on the other side, all those things that trouble us here will be gone!
We treasure your insight and are not too worried about your differences!
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
I’m with you Muslin, I’m on your side with this one.
Hard-core fundagelicals are some of the cruelest people around.
They teach that God doesn’t care about your ‘feelings’, so why should they?
I’d like to see the letter Rogers sent out labeling Berger a “Christian extremist”. I wonder what evidence supported that conclusion, if it was the conclusion stated in the letter.
The fact Rogers was in DC on 1/6 may help Berger’s case.
Re vax in fundyland: see NYT video “Dying in the name of vaccine freedom” on youtube or online. It details my region and what we deal with.
The second link worked for me.
There are strange things, possibly murder and sexual abuse going on with Judges who should be recused overseeing judgments.
That’s because socio-economic status trumps gender in complementarianism (and patriarchy), though you’d be hard-pressed to hear a modern complementarian acknowledge this. This is PURE speculation on my part, but the (patriarchal) antebellum south had large plantations run by a “master” and “mistress.” But in more industrialized or urban communities, the factory owner’s wife wasn’t really visibly involved in the day-to-day operations of the business. Maybe that trickled down to present-day churches.
They’re Calvary Chapel, according to that (non)denomination’s church directory.
Explains a lot.
https://calvarycca.org/churches/
Jerome,
Yup
Can someone please explain to me why it’s a good idea to have piano music playing over Gracie’s testimony? Does the person posting the testimony think her words are insufficient and need to be complemented by emotional manipulation? Just let her speak!
Max,
Like Wade Burleson?
Their “church”. As opposed to the Body of Christ.
Paul didn’t have a church. Neither did Peter.
Hmmmm…
Folks, I crave your prayers for my brother, who is in terrible pain right now. He was in an auto accident four years ago, the pain from pinched nerves is getting worse, and getting pain care is difficult because of the fear of “OMG you might get addicted to opioids”. If you could pray for relief for him, it’s really got him rattled. Thank you.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Just prayed for your brother, Dee. Chronic pain is so wearying, and sometimes it’s difficult to find Pain Dr.s who aren’t just into doing lucrative procedures.
A HUGE difference in American religiosity. The average pewsitter has no idea they are in the kingdom of men rather than the Kingdom of God … doing church, but not in the Church.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
I just prayed for your brother.
Max,
Nice way of putting it… I am disgusted at the short video of the Sarah Berger’s behavior…
“What about me?!” … “What about me?!!”
Listening to music triggers a release of dopamine to the brain. It’s a common gimmick in certain church services to control emotions. Charismatic groups are masters at this.
From the OP: “Steve faced heavy criticism for his participation in the right-wing march in Washington D.C. on January 6, 2021, though he claims he was not among the crowd that stormed the Capitol, having returned to his hotel by 11:00 A.M.”
I don’t know what time the man returned to his hotel, but he made inflammatory, inaccurate statements about January 6, then issued a retraction that continued to distort. He claims that he drove to DC on January 4 for meetings set up earlier. Odd timing, given months of publicity about big plans for January 6. (If you’re curious about early January, check Wikipedia, “Timeline of the 2021 United States Capitol attack.”)
The mayor of DC was expecting trouble. She took the extraordinary step of asking people not to come into town on the 6th. Some hotels and Airbnb canceled reservations. Many people worked from home.
If Steve Berger didn’t notice a growing sense of menace on January 6, why did he leave before the main speakers took the stage?
If he did anticipate violence, why did he initially describe the scene this way? “Everybody that we were sandwiched together [with were] totally polite, couldn’t have been more kind. I never heard a single cuss word, never heard a problem, never heard anybody be ugly. I heard plenty of ‘excuse me,’ ‘oh, I’m sorry’ [and] ‘hey, make way for the lady with the stroller’ — it was unbelievably polite.”
https://www.williamsonhomepage.com/franklin/grace-chapel-church-senior-pastor-makes-baseless-claims-that-antifa-members-masqueraded-as-trump-supporters/article_d8b47e42-510f-11eb-b837-d7e1080cc0db.html
In the dystopian SF novel Gather, Darnkess! by Fritz Leiber, the Heirarchy (global religious dictatorship with Medieval Catholic trappings) uses “parasymp organs” to manipulate its pewsitters through music. With subliminal tones and pitches designed and tested to trigger dopamine-rush emotions in the kept-ignorant uneducated commoners. Whether to induce Love for The Heirarchy or murderous rage against “Witches” (dissidents). The Priesthood of the Heirarchy use science and applied science (especially in the fields of psychology and propaganda) as priestcraft to keep their mark on their animate property.
I live in the general area of Calvary Chapel’s Vatican/Ground Zero; Calvary Chapel DOMINATED Christianese media throughout the area. Even “Independent Nondenominational ‘Fellowships'” here are Calvary Chapel clones with the labels switched. There was literally NO Salvation outside of Calvary Chapel.
And as a survivor of The Gospel According to Hal Lindsay and Jack Chick, I have ALWAYS gotten a “bad vibe” about CC. Nothing I could point to and say “AHA!”, nothing that could survive the full-auto return barrage of Bible Bullets, but a general “ripple in The Force” of something WRONG. Like the CC System distilled down and concentrated everything that could go WRONG in a church.
The same Plantations whose labor needs were met by a simple matter of Black and White?
A Peculiar Institution of Animate Property?
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Count me in too.
that’s why they call it “dope”amine
I read the OP about three to four times, once last night, and a few times just now.
I’m not exactly sure why this is being featured on this blog.
I could see where the bottom links (about Gracie alleging her church / Christian school covered up for her father sexually assaulting her, or failed to report it or what not) could be the focus.
So…for some reason (political?? or what, I’m not sure), there is a civil war in the church under discussion in the OP, people are throwing punches at each other, etc.
(That is a story that would fit more over on my blog than this one, I think.)
Other than the links to Gracie’s story, I’m not seeing how the content above that portion fits in with the usual topics of this blog (spiritual abuse or “ChurchToo” reports)?
There are many white, progressive women who consider themselves Christian who conflate leftist beliefs and causes (and this is also true of progressive Christian churches and denominations)…
(such as being pro-abortion, lax borders, thinking Christian bakers should be forced or guilt tripped into baking “gay” wedding cakes or celebratory “transgender transition” cakes, etc)…
So they end up thinking that…
“Christianity or Jesus Christ = Progressive Policies / Views / Values”
This conflation of Christianity with politics is ~just as~ common on the left as it is on the right.
Above, someone was mentioning transgenderism
While it is true that there are some persons born as being intersex, the majority of humans are born either biologically male (XY) or female (XX).
People who are born with XY chromosomes are not female by birth – that is biological reality, too.
If a person born as XY, and his mother names him “Fred,” but later in life, as an adult, he chooses to twirl around in skirts and to call himself “Sally,” I don’t get too worked up over that.
I do draw the line, though, at there this encroaches on the safety, opportunities, or rights of biological girls and women. And it sometimes does.
Meaning, among other things, I do not support natal men who identify as women being permitted into women’s prisons, women’s domestic violence shelters, women’s restrooms, etc.
Though I am not a liberal, I largely agreed with liberal author J. K. Rowling’s position on this matter in this open letter she wrote:
https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/
^Rowling received a lot of death threats from trans persons and their allies on social media for that open letter, and other times she’s tweeted about her views on the topic. I think her open letter was perfectly reasonable.
Here is a link to that Sunday morning service in it’s entirety. Two things I noticed: when the pastor totally lost control of the entire situation during a megachurch’s Sunday morning service (which just makes me wonder about his ability as a leader), in what large church would a random guy be able to come up in the middle of a sermon and gain microphone access? Most large churches would have their security all over that in 5 seconds. Also, is it just me, or does “rando-guy” start shaming the congregation, while the pastor allows it? Finally, I live in the same area where this church is located: I don’t know too much about the church, and so I am not gonna defend (nor oppose) the founding pastor, whom I’ve never met, regarding what went down on Sunday. But what made me want to comment on this particular blog entry was the story related to the Solomon family. I’ve been following that story for months now, and it’s an extremely strange and long, drawn out story with multiple players involved. I most definitely won’t pass judgment on who I think is innocent or guilty within the Solomon family, but I WILL say that after following the Solomon family’s story for quite some time now, I’m not sure the founding pastor deserves to be accused of protecting an abuser. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R5by1wm4lwI&noapp=1
linda,
Are you the same linda that used to post here when I was more or less a regular participant several years ago?
If not, I apologize for my following comments; if you’re not the same linda, the following is not applicable to you, please disregard.
(Assuming you’re the same linda I conversed with on here years ago),
I am having a difficult time understanding how you can be oozing with compassion for people who may feel they fall outside gender norms,
yet,
when, in the past, a few years ago, I was discussing (on this very blog) how so many churches and their doctrines end up marginalizing adult, single women (via the Billy Graham Rule among other things), you proceeded to criticize single women and put us down…
As though all single women who may want to ask a married man for help with a flat tire or leaky faucet (and they can’t afford a plumber) is obviously trying to start an affair.
That linda at that time told me unequivocally that I, a single woman, cannot and should not ever even think about asking any married man for help in any way.
Single women are totally on our own and shouldn’t expect help from any church people (especially married ones), is what that linda was saying a few years ago.
The mind boggles at the very selective compassion practiced by some Christians.
I don’t know why transgender people would be deserving of compassion or consideration but non-trans single women are not.
^If that’s not you, but another linda, please disregard this message.
linda,
I am not anti-vaccine, but a lot of our civil liberties are being chipped away at here in the USA by various levels of government.
I think the Covid virus is being used as a pre-text by the American government to clamp down on people’s civil liberties.
Some other governments of other nations have also gone nutso and overboard over Covid – Canada and Australia come to mind.
linda,
linda,
I am not anti-vaccine, but a lot of our civil liberties are being chipped away at here – the virus is being used as a pre-text to accomplish that. I find that alarming.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Hope your brother recovers & does better.
This is absolutely dripping with condescension.
(Off Topic) – If Headless Unicorn Guy is still reading here:
Your brother you’ve spoken of in the past.
It’s possible he has N.P.D. (Narcissistic Personality Disorder), or falls somewhere on the narcissism spectrum.
I know in the past when I mentioned what I learned in my research on sociopaths and psychopaths, you thought the traits I listed sounded like your brother.
Rather than have psychopathy or sociopathy, he may have NPD, or be at a lower level of narcissism.
Narcissists technically can feel empathy, but they choose not to
(it would take me ten pages to explain why that is so. You can research Narcissism online to find out more, if you like).
Narcissists are somewhat similar (IMO, from what I’ve read) to the sociopaths/psychopaths but are not identical.
They will not care about your feelings or about meeting your needs, but they want you to care deeply about meeting their needs.
They can become vengeful and nasty if they feel slighted by you in some way.
Narcissism comes in different “flavors.”
Not all narcissists are Overt, or are the stereotypical “Grandiose / Malignant” types who act very boastful, proud, and extroverted.
There are other types, such as Covert / Communal / Vulnerable, etc.
Of course, there can be overlap on these things, from what I’ve read.
(A psychopath can also have narcissistic traits, for instance. But a Narcissist is not necessarily a psychopath.)
If you research this more, you may find that your brother matches one of the categories of narcissist.
Friend,
How so?
It sure wasn’t written with a condescending attitude.
California is already in the process of allowing bio men who ID as women into women’s prisons – and the officials there are handing out condoms to the bio women.
Apparently, it’s OK by those who support Trans Rights for bio women to be raped by men who claim to be women.
Carrying on to what I was saying to HUG…
This has implications for some of the types of abusive pastors or Christians discussed on this blog:
I am willing to bet a lot of the attention seekers who identify as Christian would fall into the “Communal” (type of Narcissism) category.
They’re the ones who do things like volunteer to feed orphans in Africa as part of some church ministry, and then they post photos of themselves handing soup to orphans to their social media so you can see it.
They don’t really care about helping children, it’s all about image (“look how wonderful and giving I am to feed orphaned kids!”), and getting “Likes” on Facebook for such content.
You can read more about that here, or just by doing a search for the phrase “communal narcissism”:
What Is Communal Narcissism?
https://www.choosingtherapy.com/communal-narcissism/
For any interested, I started occasionally doing posts about the Trans craze over on my Daisy blog.
I may do a few more posts about it in the future.
From what I’ve been seeing over the last few years,
Transactivism (MtF) is a Men’s Rights movement.
Most of those claiming to be Trans do not have gender dysphoria. Many of the MtF transgenders have Autogynephilia. You can google for more on that.
Here is just one post of a few I’ve done on the subject:
Many Platforms are Banning or Blocking Ads or Pages for Abigail Shrier’s Book on How the Transgender Craze is Harming Teen Girls – the Silencing of Trans Dissenting Views
https://missdaisyflower.wordpress.com/2021/06/24/many-platforms-are-banning-or-blocking-ads-or-pages-for-abigail-shriers-book-on-how-the-transgender-craze-is-harming-teen-girls-the-silencing-of-trans-dissenting-views/
I also began doing posts on my blog about how anything and everything (including the field of science – and mathematics and engineering!) is being horribly politicized by “the woke” – and dissenting views are being shut down, particularly on Twitter and other social media sites.
That poor Christian baker who was sued over not wanting to bake a “gay wedding cake” a few years ago, was again sued a few months ago (or year ago?), but this time, he was targeted by a trans person who wanted a celebratory “transition cake.”
Daisy,
Oh, here’s a link to one news story about that (you can Google to find more)
– another source says that the biological women inmates are also being given ‘Plan B’ once the “men who identify as women” are housed with women inmates, because the prison officials are expecting the “transwomen” (bio men) to rape the bio women.
California Now Must Supply Woman’s Prisons Condoms Due To Biological Men Housed In Their Prisons
https://wbckfm.com/california-supply-womans-prisons-condoms-biological-men-housed-prisons/
Again, time permitting, I may occasionally being doing posts about this over at my Daisy blog. It’s already doing harm to biological girls and women.
Friend,
I notice you didn’t comment on the other concerns I raised in the post…
Like how I mentioned author J K Rowling received death threats and harassment from the trans community for stating her very reasonable views on these topics, and how the trans movement is causing harm to biological girls and women.
You’re only concerned that my description of a grown man who may want to wear lip stick sounds “condescending.” Seriously, that’s your priority?
The safety and well being of biological girls and women apparently means nothing if it goes up against what “transwomen” want.
But yet, we’re on a blog that (rightly) is concerned for the sexual or spiritual abuse of biological females (or biological males) in or by church people.
Wow, that went downhill quickly.
Berger’s FB page has a letter announcing he is resigning from the elder board is leaving Grace Chapel, and will not preach there again.
Luckyforward,
That is good news.
I wearily assume that he is not going to change professions.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
I’ll pray for him, Dee Holmes. Please keep us informed about your brother’s condition. May he ‘go under the mercy’.
Dee makes the news: https://julieroys.com/advocacy-group-grace-staff-changes/
While the blog thread drifts off-course, Grace Chapel of Franklin TN is imploding.
There is some real nasty people on that side of the isle too. And if you look though history it is nothing new. Just look at Earnst Rom, the leader of the Brownshirts. There is a lot of bullying going on and nasty talk by both extremes and I am not for any of that. Getting angry enough to start bullying others is not something that is good, and it is something we complain about a lot here in other contexts.
This topic is a bit problematic, because it pertains not just to behavior but to beliefs.
Maybe we need to talk about pie.
Thanks, Max.
Voice of reason.
Reading the Bible on one’s own is always helpful, as opposed to simply submitting to the latest from the pulpit.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Praying, for him and for you.
Ava Aaronson,
Thanks. I do appreciate it when others notice that I am for what is right, not was is political on either side of the isle. I see a lot of strawmen constructed for people who are not either hard, hard right or hard, hard left. They both make everyone out to be some kind of nut or go on some emotional rant about the evils of everyone with any kind of different belief system. Then they set fire to and burn the great majority claiming to be the good guy who actually is a very small minority.
Here I see some people rake the right extreme over the coals while gladly promoting the left extremes. To me that is just hypocrisy and we all know we need a lot less of that. There also is a bunch of pride and arrogance in that with no self-examination. We are all sinners. None of us have the perfect mind of God. Everyone of us has been deceived and from my experience will be in the future. Yet life serves up plenty of humble pie for those who choose to feast on it.
So long as we leave it’s approximation at 2 decimal places (3.14) we’re good to go.
Actually, it’s not, because (a) the American “Left” is *tiny* compared to the American Religious Right and (b) within the American “Left” there is a huge amount of suspicion of religion because “lefties” (such as they are) have seen what the Religious Right has done and want nothing to do with it.
As for why this is here, I don’t think it has so much to do with the Bergers’ political beliefs or that the governor of Tennessee goes there. Rather, this is an extraordinary break in the amount of control that megachurches have over what is said within the church. The only reason Sarah Berger was able to speak as she did was because of her position as the former lead pastor’s wife. And she got cut off after a minute, and the current leadership of Grace Chapel was so SPOOKED they cancelled the second service. It indicates to me that behind the scenes, things are *brittle*.
So what’s really going on over at Grace Chapel? If it’s like any other megachurch out there, there’s likely dirt and financial shenanigans. If the current leadership of the church isn’t worried that the Bergers might find an elementary school they can rent for a Sunday service, maybe they should be. (That said, the Bergers may have had to sign a non-compete to move into their current season, who knows?)
And while I don’t have any insight into the Grace and Grant Solomon story beyond the one Medium article and the subsequent cease and desist letter, I would point out that moving a child from the custody of *both* parents indicates *something* is very wrong. Add to that the letter *Grace Chapel* sent to the blogger (not the father of the Solomon children) and there’s something *very* weird going on. The church could have dropped a few thousand dollars to get that written and sent.
Anyway, those are my musings, but the way the church just shut down the discussion is very eybrow-raising.
Sorry, J.K. Rowling is no liberal. She is being rightly derided and criticized for making life difficult for transgender women in the UK. And I would just point out what my male to female transgender friend says about going to the bathroom: “I just want to do my business and get out.” Finally, I know women who are not transgender but who dress in a style that’s maybe a bit more unisex or even “butch,” and they’ve been harassed by the guardians of restrooms who doubt they’re women. That’s what this transgender witch hunt is doing.
I feel VERY strongly about this, I know how much transgender women have been harassed by the righteous and NO, NOBODY chooses to be transgender. Not when you *will* get harassed or even killed by people who see transgender people as threats. I was in my 20s and remember all too well how the nascent Religious Right in the early 1980s decided gay men were horrible, horrible people, carriers of a terrible, dangerous communicable disease passed by their unnatural sex acts and God righteously struck them down in judgment. (Of course ignoring the hemophiliacs and heterosexuals, because getting AIDS wasn’t just a matter of sex.) What’s happening with transgender women is more of the same.
Tired of this nonsense.
Friend,
a layer of melted dark chocolate poured on the crust, allowed to harden before pouring in the chocolate filling. then home-made whipped cream on top.
Possible, nothing.
I’ve been certain of it for 50 years.
It ain’t low-level, that’s for sure.
Like the unofficial distinction between a psychopath and a sociopath:
A psychopath cannot tell the difference between right and wrong. (Just “I WANNA!”)
A sociopath can, but doesn’t care. (Again, “I WANNA!”)
Search (on Google or YouTube) the names “Chris Chan” and/or “Sonichu” sometime and make sure you have a gallon of brain-bleach handy. This guy’s been infamous for a couple decades as a walking dumpster fire/train wreck in various fandoms. (And recently his “fame” is reaching outside of those bubbles. Like YouTube and recently the evening news.)
Well, Sonichu got in the news a couple months ago when he was arrested for sexual assault on his 80+ year old invalid mother. And when busted, he/she/it came out as a Trans Woman so he/she/it could go to women’s prison for the above-described reason. Like I said, a walking dumpster fire.
Daisy,
Daisy:
You mentioned Seneca Griggs (remember him, WWers?) on your blog.
He’s currently camping out as Wondering Eagle’s regular troll, doing his usual thing (and getting counter-trolled by another commenter who goes by “Jack”).
This may come out awkwardly, and is not meant to minimize your struggles. But speaking as a high-functioning autistic woman with clinical anxiety… in this equation, I think society is the one who is broken, not you.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Yeah, those ones.
Not saying it’s right. Just a curious connection.
Daisy–our civil liberties are not being chipped away due to covid. That is an ultra right wing myth.
Already we figured out when people go around with the anus exposed there are germs which are normal there which wind up in food and drink, which are not good places for them. And already we demand those anuses be covered. So now in a pandemic we know when people do not wear a mask they risk exposing others to a deadly virus. Not too big a stretch to mandate covering the mouth and nose for now, just as we mandate covering the anus in public.
For decades people have been mandated to get vaccines for school, many workplaces, for travel and for military service. Adding a new disease to the ones we vaccinate for is in no way stripping people of their rights.
The one’s who are having their rights stripped are the elderly, the immunocompromised, and all those who do not want to risk long covid. We are STILL basically in lockdown because we live where the vast majority will not mask, social distance, or vaccinate.
What about our rights? Oh, I know, “we have the right to stay home.” Well, its time to flip that and let the anti science crowd stay home. We demand our rights now.
Todd Wilhelm,
I have been reflecting on this as well. The short video clip of Sarah Berger is VERY disturbing to me, and systematic of all sorts of spiritual abuse. There is just so much “wrong” with it…..
Ava Aaronson,
I agree
The irony with me is that my fundamentalist background did pound the Bible into me… while they were selective in their practices, we did read the Bible (the KJV, which is the only True translation mind you). Even back then, while I was “immersed” in fundamentalism, their inconsistencies/heresies/dogmatism stated to become apparent to me… so, one could argue that the fundamentalist did teach me to trust the Biblical narrative over them!
I would say reading the Bible on your own has reached the critical stage in the American church! It’s the only way for believers to discern genuine vs. counterfeit ministers and ministries. Blindly following “men of God” in the pulpit these days is a dangerous proposition. You must have a plumb line of Truth in your life … and that comes from personal Bible study and prayer. You have to dig your own spiritual well.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
“I desire, I apply might ‘cuz might is right, I acquire so it’s mine.”
The Dear Leader + followers MO.
Jesus was/is no Dear Leader. No place to even lay his head, no Earthly dynasty to speak of. Went to the cross as a onesy then defied death to reign. Nothing by the might of man. God.
For everyone striving for a place at the table of their church’s inner circle, behold what a church’s inner circle is all about. Here in all its rank splendor. Big red flag. Feature not a bug. Ugly. Egomaniacs. Sick human behavior. No Jesus to be seen. No HS love, joy, peace. Thx but no thx.
I’ve been on the edge of that sort of teaching in times past. There’s a great difference between men pounding Scripture into you vs. allowing the Holy Spirit to teach you Truth. Just being immersed in the Bible through fundamentalism won’t necessarily deposit what the inner man needs, if the Holy Spirit is superseded by the teachings and traditions of mere men.
… may get you a bit of power and prestige, but will bring leanness to your soul.
Max,
I would add that the name “Christian”, at least partially, comes from the concept of “following Christ”. So, if one wishes to “follow Christ”, we should read what Christ “taught”. For me, and good starting point is the “Beatitudes” I, for one, will say, dwelling on them makes me lower my head and realize I come far short of following these, let alone many of the other teachings…..
The inner circle in a church usually has very little to do with the inner man.
The irony is that if one reads the whole Bible on one’s own, the heretics are outed. No need for rocket science theology. The tremendous burden of fundamentalism is lifted without jumping into the toxic soup of I can have whatever I want ‘cuz anything goes.
Amen and Amen!
Which is human behavior not supported by the Bible itself.
Jesus knocks at the door, Rev. 3.20, or IOW, “the Dove don’t shove”. The HS gently nudges, which we miss if we aren’t listening. God spoke to Elijah in a soft voice.
Personally, I have no time for theatrics, pounding and yelling, from the pulpit. Raise your voice, I’m gone. It’s unnecessary, demeaning, and unhealthy.
Speak in a normal tone of voice, like Malcolm Gladwell or Michael Lewis or Simon Sinek or a normal college professor. Explain without threats or degradation.
Another POV, everything to do with inner man’s empty black hole of depravity using others to build a personal dynasty INSTEAD of being filled with the love. joy, and peace of the HS and following JC.
Warning signs: covenants, NDAs, grifting off people’s resources, misogyny, politics, yachts, not recognizing all 18 gifts of the HS to the church, not addressing needs of orphans and widows, running church as a business – sometimes even for profit, predation in church as a hunting ground, etc.
Luckyforward,
Friend,
I see hope for the Grace Chapel congregation in Steve Berger’s attempt in January to back pedal. His newly announced departure suggests that the congregation believes he went too far.
Based on painful off-topic comments, TWW folks are worried about whether extreme folks are typical of the group they either represent or claim to represent. That is a worthy question. It’s too easy to use a bad example to discredit a whole group.
Unfortunately, it’s also easy to excuse somebody else’s bad behavior simply by saying, “I don’t do that.” Challenging another person’s behavior can be almost unthinkably hard, as it will bring conflict to the surface. Multiply that by a lot if challenging a founding pastor in this era of suffering.
I hope that Grace Chapel moves toward healing, and provides an example the rest of us can use.
Christian Industrial Complex … personality cults … mega-mania … doing church without God
Much of the American church has been swept up by stagecraft, with the Great God Entertainment sitting on the throne. Actors strut their stuff on stage while a gullible audience applauds them on.
“The prophets prophesy falsely,
And the priests rule on their own authority;
And My people love to have it so!
But what will you do when the end comes?”
Jeremiah 5:31
Amen! Which is the ultimate objective at the heart of many Wartburgers, IMO. Beyond informing and warning the Body of Christ about wayward ministers/ministries and throwing up red flags about aberrant beliefs and practices, I truly believe that TWW commenters yearn to see the Body of Christ healed from these wounds.
Although there are times the Holy Spirit can nudge quite firmly…. 🙂
(Speaking from personal experience… 🙂 )
I was young and now am old … I’ve experienced that in my Christian journey. On occasion, I ignored a firm nudge to run when I thought “I” was right to stay. Most of us still learn by the great teacher Experience, but it would have been an easier row to hoe if we had our ears tuned to the Greatest Teacher.
Amen to seeing that healing, although I freely admit that I don’t think there ever will be healing for ANY church (and that ALL need it!) as long as we insist on a clergy laity divide that Jesus was quite clear was not to exist.
Your mileage may vary! Peace!
“Want. Take. Simple.”
When did this happen? When? WHEN? Seriously, I want to know. Then I’l point out that there are far, far more examples of heterosexual men sexually assaulting women and girls.
It you think I’m going to stand idly by while you demonize transgender persons, Daisy, you’re very wrong. That kind of poison leads to suicides and murders, with the anti-transgender activists showing no mercy, just like the anti-gay types from the 1980s and 1990s. They were wrong then, you’re wrong now.
Nope, I completely get it. I wish society was more accepting of those of us who are not neurotypical, but it’s not and it’s hard.
There is genuine Gender Dysphoria, and there will be those who will fake it to Game the System.
Or even worse (and more pathetic) those who will fake it because it’s become Fashionable.
(Don’t laugh. I saw that happen with Teh Gay in early Furry Fandom.)
This is now up on Roy’s: https://julieroys.com/chapel-ohio-second-pastor-resigns/
Headless Unicorn Guy,
To my surprise, a neighbor has been making a slow transition over the past few years and is now living as a woman. If the neighbor’s goal is to become a rapist, there are far more efficient ways.
Heinous crime tragically does happen. However, a lot of anti-trans worry about sexual assault in women’s restrooms is replaying arguments against the Equal Rights Amendment. Older arguments about segregated restrooms might also be echoing.
This remains pretty far off topic; I am responding because the black-and-white teaching in many churches does tend to create perceived enemies and a perceived need to take a stand. In my high school youth group, the gay kids were preached into invisibility. They came out as adults.
Not to mention that what Daisy is repeating is a bunch of fear mongering. None of this has happened at this point. If rapes occur, people would be prosecuted. Saying that this is going to happen is just sickening.
I am still trying to figure out how a column dedicated to discussing a particular church issue was highjacked into a discussion of gender issues . . .
Luckyforward,
It’s not completely off topic. Muslin aka Dee Holmes mentioned Grace Chapel’s teachings about human sexuality on Monday:
I’m just going to go back to this statement from Grace Chapel’s beliefs:
“WE BELIEVE that God wonderfully and immutably creates each person as male or female.”
I’ll try to link to her full comment here:
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes
Administrative note:
Changing your name so you APPEAR to be a different person is against the rules.
Changing your name by mistake, because you want to use a new, better, slightly different name, or some other innocuous reason will still get you moderated. And then your comment will not appear until our highly paid crack staff gets to it. [/sarcasm]
Please be consistent.
GBTC
Second Administrative note:
Yes. Let this fade away and everyone go back to the original topic.
I tried to steer it back on the road last night with my comment “While the blog thread drifts off-course, Grace Chapel of Franklin TN is imploding.”
It’s my fault. I looked at their beliefs and found that they were hard core complementarian and they were anti-transgender. Right now, I’m just super-tired of the nonsense. I went through this before in the 1980s with the scaremongering over gay men and AIDS. Now it’s the ’20s and we’ve got panic in the churches over transgender people.
I’d just remind people that Jesus said nothing (that we know of) about LGBTQIA persons. And he did make a point of eating (a very significant act) with the social outcasts of his society. I’m now at the point where I’m not going to say what I think Jesus would do today, but I’d hope he’d stand with the marginalized and outcast.
Just to be completely sarcastic here, perhaps Grace Chapel should implode? (Sorry, not sorry, I had an invasive medical examination done today and I’m super-cranky. I’ll go offline now.)
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Hope you’re feeling much better by the time you read this.
Regarding “imploding” churches, Scripture says “If this teaching or movement is merely human it will collapse of its own accord” (Acts 5:38-39)
You have nothing to be sorry for.
Any organization, religious or non, that bases itself on fear to shore up a dictatorship, will collapse of its own accord.
I’m starting to wonder if this is the apostasy and delusion spoken of in 2Thes 2. The situation has become so strange and extreme.
I can see that belief leading to either pride, denial or anguish, none of these being good fruit. Why are Christians so anxious to add to the words of God? And at the same time, ignore all of the ones that were written? They never seem to be excited about just accepting people and loving them as they are, though that is what Jesus did.
That’s sure not what you see in the countless videos of the day’s events. Maybe he was seeing what he wanted to see.
If so, they are both completely missing the point. His kingdom is not of this world. If one extreme is in error, that doesn’t make the other correct, nor does the existence of one extreme justify taking the other extreme. The way usuallythreads along through the middle. Seek to enter by the narrow gate. God is love. It’s as simple as that.
I don’t even think many of these megachurches are really about Jesus or religion. They are moneymaking institutions for the benefit of their leadership. Otherwise, they would be planting churches in poor areas or a variety of areas instead of only the most affluent ones.
I would even venture to say that many of these political issues are held simply because they also benefit the leadership. Their members feel like they are in a special elite that “knows more” than others and are separated for a “special purpose”. Those tactics are the same strategies cults use to keep their members from leaving.
“The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and its members”
http://cultresearch.org/help/characteristics-associated-with-cults/
SiteSeer,
you might be interested in this:
” “I love local churches. But I have to admit I am hearing more from longtime church members who are quitting church life completely. One member wrote me: ‘The non-Christians I associate with are much nicer people than the members of my church.’” Rainer concluded: “Are mean churches really increasing in number? My anecdotal information would indicate they are.”
Given those realities, how might Christian churches and individuals remain or become “non-mean” amid the “meanness of this moment?” Let’s start with some questions:
When does “doctrine” or “conviction” camouflage the meanness of bigotry? Nineteenth century slaveholders convinced themselves that inerrant Scripture gave them permission to own other human beings. What meanness are we proof texting?
When does “Jesus is the only way” become a license for the meanness of religious violence verbally, politically or physically? Christian anti-Semitism is a 2,000-year-old case in point.
When does the “priesthood” of the individual believer become a tool fostering meanness in the body of Christ? How many church “splits” have been predicated on that premise?
When does the body of Christ (the church) move from gospel dissent to the meanness of the mob, “othering” those who disagree with us? Current religio-political polarizations, left and right, reflect that destructive dilemma.”
Siteseer, It looks to me like people are walking away from the ‘meanness’ in the Church;
although from some comments, we find out that some people walk away from ‘the Church’ because, for them, it’s not mean enough . . . go figure
there is more than some truth in Anne LaMott’s saying, ““You can safely assume you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
I think that the intensity of the mean-spiritedness shows both how anxious and fearful some folks are of societal changes, but also in the intensity of the full-on hate-mongering, there is an element of mental illness, for which one can only have pity for the one who is suffering.
christiane,
Siteseer, I forgot to add a reference to that quote:
https://baptistnews.com/article/the-meanness-of-this-moment-in-america-and-its-churches/
GBTC: Cleaned up the link a bit.
BINGO!
christiane,
Thanks for the help. 🙂
Yes, and the meanness is widely known because hate-preachers do everything in their power to make sure the whole world knows about it.
When I was a kid, churchgoers looked like anybody and everybody, especially like my grandma and her friends, who were all pretty nice. When I think of the word “churchgoer” now, my mental picture is more like an angry guy yelling that I’m on my way to Hell.
(I actually am a churchgoer, but I feel less typical by the year.)
I think even the Grandmas are mean-spirited now! The institutional church has drifted so far off track that the average churchgoer is not even sure what they are angry about. Meanness is not a fruit of the Spirit, but it appears to have settled over a lot of churches in America. But, Praise God, there is still a remnant of loving folks in church, where pastors and members truly love each other and minister to their communities in Jesus’ name … hope all the Wartburgers can find such a place in their area.