Why Didn’t The Chapel Church Board of Trustees Follow Their Constitution in Removal of Tim Armstrong?

But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning.  – 1 Timothy 5:20 NIV


“Whatever their bodies do affects their souls. It is funny how mortals always picture us as putting things into their minds: in reality our best work is done by keeping things out…”
C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters


The Wartburg Watch has been tracking the opprobrium taking place among The Chapel Church of Akron since it was announced in late May that senior pastor Tim Armstrong had terminated the employment of Mike Castelli, the lead pastor of the Green campus church. As I delve ever deeper into the story it has become evident that, to borrow a phrase from Shakespeare, “something is rotten in the state of Denmark.”

Several members and former members of The Chapel have told me that Senior Pastor Tim Armstrong has been abusive of staff members for years! The Facebook post below indicate that this abuse has been going on for seven years; that is to say, the entire tenure of Armstrong’s employment at The Chapel Church. The author of this Facebook post states confidently that “The Chapel has the full report on this and needs to be transparent.” I assume he, among others, have passed the information they have compiled on Armstrong’s behavior to The Center Consulting Group, the company hired by The Chapel Church to conduct an investigation into this affair. The Trustees and members of the Constitution Committee are now in possession of the report, but in spite of claims they have made early on in this process of “maximum transparency” and “utmost transparency,” they have remained very tight-lipped on the specifics of Armstrong’s behavior, other than to quote The Chapel’s Constitution saying Armstrong is “unable to fulfill the duties of senior pastor and therefore cannot be restored to the role of senior pastor of The Chapel.”

The unwillingness of the Board of Trustees and the Constitution Committee to name Armstrong’s sins and publicly reprove him as required by Scripture (1 Timothy 5:20) does an injustice to the victims of Armstrong’s abuse. Further, their choice to allow Armstrong to write a note to church members in the Leader Update of July 30, in which Armstrong made no mention of his workplace harassment was unwise. This harassment is not only sinful, but is likely unlawful. What bothers me is that The Chapel’s leadership stated that Armstrong is unable to fulfill the duties of senior pastor and therefore cannot be restored to the role of senior pastor of The Chapel,” yet, without a confession of sin and a public rebuke, Armstrong will find it relatively easy to land another job in “Christian ministry” where his workplace harassment/abuse will likely continue.

In my opinion, there are some Trustees who have been negligent in their oversight of the church. There is absolutely no way that at least some of the men on the Board of Trustees were not aware of Armstrong’s consistent pattern of conduct that substantiates the concerns raised
about Pastor Tim’s leadership of the staff.”


“Leaders who stand conveniently silent – or willfully ignorant – regarding the abuse and exploitation of God’s people by another leader, are idolaters.They sacrifice innocent men, women and children on the altar of their own ease and self interest, which they often justify by their own warped concept of unity and misguided sense of friendship.

Understand that eventually you will be forced to give an account of your silence – not only to God, but in the “here and now” to His people whom you profess to serve.”

The Sin of Silence, by Jim Wright


I also have another issue with the Board of Trustees. In their Leadership Update of May 22 they stated:

“Just as our church constitution gives the Senior Pastor full authority to make this
employment decision, under Article 7 (Section 2), it also gives the Board Chairman,
under extraordinary circumstances, the authority to call a Constitution Committee to
inquire into the appropriateness of such a decision. This provision is known as a
meeting of the Constitution Committee.”

Clearly, at least a few of the men in leadership have read their church’s constitution, yet they failed to fully comply with it.  The Constitution Committee investigated Tim Armstrong and determined by a unanimous vote that Tim Armstrong was “unable to fulfill the duties of senior pastor and therefore cannot be restored to the role of senior pastor of The Chapel.”  The Board of Trustees voted unanimously in agreement with this, though both groups only required a 2/3 majority. So far, so good.  But they skipped over the third constitutional requirement – a 2/3 vote by church members!


ARTICLE VI
LEADERSHIP AND BOARDS


C. DISSOLUTION: The senior pastor shall give a written twomonths notice of resignation to the
trustees and staff leadership team. Involuntary termination related to inability to fulfill duties of the office, immorality, or infidelity to the Chapel doctrinal statement requires a twothirds vote of the constitution committee (Article VII, Sec. 2). A twothirds vote of the board of trustees, and a twothirds vote of the members voting at a members’ meeting called for this purpose shall also be required. 


Was this failure to follow the requirements of their church constitution a mere oversight? Doubtful. There are some sharp men on the Board of Trustees and the Constitution Committee, including one man who is a former assistant prosecutor. (More on that below.)

My guess is the leaders made a conscience decision to skip the membership vote. They would have had to reveal information that they don’t want the members to be made aware of. Perhaps they are fearful if some of the information got out there would be many people who would resign.  So much for transparency.

I would guess Armstrong was also aware that a members vote was required, this could  prove embarrassing to him and harmful in his search for another cushy job in the ministry, so he agreed to go quietly, in the name of unity, don’t you know.

Below is a video from the Cayahuga Falls campus on August 1, 2021. The lead pastor at that campus is Stephen Neumeyer. Stephen is also a member of the Constitution Committe and a former assistant prosecutor in Cayahuga County.

Did you catch his words?
“God uses sinners, …and yet there is also a time when we have put ourselves in such a situation that we cannot lead anymore and that is what has happened… it was easier to be a prosecutor at times because we at least expect criminals to act a certain way.”

Whoa! What exactly has Armstrong done? Neumeyer has made it clear that he doesn’t believe Armstrong can lead anymore; that he has acted in ways you would expect criminals to act, not a senior pastor!

I would guess that Neumeyer had no input on the statement the leaders put out for public consumption. I get the feeling that Neumeyer is an honest, honorable man and if he had his way Armstrong would not have been allowed to write a letter, to be included in the document, in which he admitted to no wrongdoing.

From my research I am now relatively certain that Mike Castelli is an honorable man and a faithful pastor. Members of the Green campus love him.

Here is what the Leaders Update from July 30th said about Castelli:

“By way of brief background, on May 20, 2021, Pastor Tim Armstrong sought the resignation of Pastor Mike Castelli. Pastor Tim made this decision based on his belief that there existed under Pastor Mike’s leadership a culture among the staff at the Green Campus that did not support Pastor Tim’s overall vision for the church. Pastor Tim felt that these cultural differences were contributing to a breach in the foundational unity of our church. When Pastor Mike declined to resign, Pastor Tim terminated Pastor Mike’s employment.”

I don’t believe a word of it. Why should I believe a guy that has been removed from his position for a pattern of abusing staff?

I was told by a person who is aware of many first-hand stories of Armstrong’s manipulative and fear-based leadership tactics that Mike Castelli called him on his behavior one too many times.

When Castelli was fired by Armstrong, church members from the Green campus were understandably upset, even outraged. A petition drive was started and in less than 8 hours they had over 700 signatures. Many of the people who signed the petition left positive comments expressing their love and respect of Mike. Many said if Mike goes they will be looking for a new church.

I hope Mike is speedily restored to his job as pastor, and that without any profession of not fully supporting Armstrong’s vision, or any other such nonsense. He doesn’t deserve what he has been put through, nor does his church.

I wonder how many other staff members have been put through hell, fired, had their reputations tarnished, etc. because of Armstrong’s abusive ways? I feel sorry for them.

Two other comments; in the spirit of “maximum transparency” what’s the reason executive pastor Jim Mitchell has been placed on administrative leave? Nobody seems to know.

Lastly, after further contemplation I hope Tim Armstrong remains on the Cedarville University Board of Trustees. Tim and his hunting buddy, Thomas White deserve each other. If you are thinking of sending your child to that pricey institution all I can say is, buyer beware!

Comments

Why Didn’t The Chapel Church Board of Trustees Follow Their Constitution in Removal of Tim Armstrong? — 124 Comments

  1. My husband’s Facebook post is quoted above. I was one of the first on Armstrong’s chopping block in January 2015. After 17 on Chapel staff, I was fired soon after he became senior pastor. Never saw it coming! (It’s a long story and would love to share it with you if you’d like to contact me.) You are spot on in your assessments. Armstrong is a cold hearted, vindictive bully and is being coddled, when he should have to answer for his behavior. And you are correct in your assessment that Pastor Mike Castelli is an honorable, humble man with an amazing shepherd’s heart for his church. (Pastor Neumeyer is an honorable man as well.) This whole thing is heartbreaking, but we know God will bring all truth to light.

  2. Tim Armstrong had the Trustee Board “under his spell.” They weren’t allowed to talk to pastors other than Tim. That allowed Tim to paint whatever picture he wanted of pastors and staff, and there was no way for the trustees to verify with anyone. There was a toxic loyalty to Tim.

    While this worked, and allowed Tim to fire many staff and pastors at the Akron campus that didn’t “share his vision” or “caused disunity”, it didn’t work when he came after Mike Castelli. While Mike was grilled for hours in front of the trustees, Tim, and an attorney hired by the trustees, he suddenly made the trustees begin to question Tim’s decision making. Mike is an extremely godly, humble, intelligent man. However, the trustees do not have employment responsibility over Mike. By the Constitution, Tim was allowed to fire Mike.

    Tim’s action came as a surprise to the trustees, though. There was still a lot of disagreement among the trustees with Tim regarding this decision. In the rush to get a communication out to the congregation, a whole lot of people, including Tim’s legal representative, were allowed to edit that first letter. That’s why it’s a case study in awful communication.

    Essentially, the trustees have come to realize since May 22 that they were completely bamboozled by Tim Armstrong.

    If you’ve ever read “A Church Called TOV”, the first half of the book describes Tim Armstrong’s organization. On the other hand, the second half of the book, talking about the “circle of TOV”, describes perfectly the Green Campus under Mike Castelli. Somehow, Mike was able to filter nearly all of the toxicity coming from 10 minutes up I-77, take it upon himself, protect his staff and congregation, and lead a loving, fruitful, gracious congregation. I literally don’t know how he didn’t have a heart attack or mental illness.

    I’m confident Mike will be back leading Green, as long as he and the trustees can come to an agreement that the campuses will have autonomy in the future. This is the second time the pastor in charge of Central Administration had tried to take over at Green. It happened under Paul Saratarelli, also. Mike needs assurance that this won’t happen again. He needs to be free to shepherd his people without fearing he’ll be replaced by the next guy who thinks he can just take over a large congregation in the suburbs. As a Green attender, it amazes me that there’s more to Green than a nice building and a large congregation. We actually love each other and get along and are excited to do ministry together because of the way that Mike lives out the scriptures for us, surrounds himself with great people who love Jesus and love Mike, and shows us how to extend God’s love to others.

    As far as Jim Mitchell, no one seems to know what will happen. The generally consensus is that Jim was also under Tim’s spell, and did his bidding as Executive Pastor. This doesn’t excuse what happened, and only the Constitution Committee and Trustees know the depth of Jim’s guilt in the many firings, demotions, heavy-handedness, etc. However, I can’t see how Jim will ever be able to continue as Executive Pastor.

    One major concern right now is for the Staff and congregation in Akron. Unfortunately, they were mostly unaware that the investigation had anything to do with toxic leadership by Tim, and now they’ve lost their pastor. The lack of transparency from the Constitution Committee has been hurtful, but I think that might just be a continuation of Tim’s culture of secrecy. It would have been helpful if they had signaled this before so Akron wasn’t blind-sided.

    The Chapel has a lot of healing to do.

  3. I was just a volunteer and I was one in his horrible wake….My mom and I were carrying Sunday School decorations into the church, we had dropped some, he walked around us and never once looked back to see if we were OK or if we needed any help! This was just after he became Sr Pastor. I had lost ALL respect for him.

  4. My suspicion on the basis this post is that the voluntary resignation has been tendered, it contains an effective date two months out, and there will be pay (at the least use of vacation time) during that period. Possibly not an ideal outcome, but an “easy” path in the midst of the process towards an involuntary termination. Just organizing a meeting of the members of a multi-campus church could easily take most of a two month period, and getting a two-thirds vote of the congregation without a long pre-discussion period would be a gamble, especially in the presence of fanboys.

  5. The constitution is there for the difficult circumstances. If the elders ignore it, especially when ignoring it bypasses the authority of the congregation established in the constitution, I believe it indicates that something similar to an insurrection has occurred.

  6. Abuse = reviling. 1 Corinthians 5:11 says “. . . not even to eat with such a one”.

    Not rebuking him publicly is just a continuation of what can only be described as a long pattern of ungodly behavior by the lack leadership.

    Rot at the core infects the rest.

    I suspect the following is their motto:

    “Can’t have people know what is going on or they will leave and take their money with them.”

  7. A Church Constitution that cannot, and indeed fails to restrain the ambition of a strong-man, is no Constitution at all.

  8. “It was easier to be a prosecutor at times, because we at least expected criminals to act a certain way.”

    Final statement on the vid, & a humdinger at that.

  9. Mr. Jesperson: A new name in the sexual assault category of “pastors.” And now GRACE is involved in the investigation: https://julieroys.com/pca-min-joshua-chung-alleged-misconduct/

    The linked article is similar to so many “church” abuse articles (very big sigh, and no offense intended by what might sound like my “ho hum” attitude).

    One difference I noted in the linked article was the lack of multiple quotes by “church” types of accountability and / or transparency (which lack and / or omission could have happened for any number of reasons).

  10. Headless Unicorn Guy: Pastor/Rapists

    Has any pastor or teacher ever preached on this evil?
    Do any churches offer training on how to do church and protect yourself and your loved ones?

    Is this the elephant in the room type of deal?
    Heads in the sand?

  11. Ava Aaronson: Has any pastor or teacher ever preached on this evil?

    When it’s become a Privilege of Pastoral Rank?
    “TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!”

  12. The whole issue of constitutions, by-laws, etc. in church government is laughable. When I served as a state demoninational executive charged with working with ministers and churches (Pre-fundie SBC), I was astounded how regularly these documents were ignored when issues with ministerial staff came up.

    For instance, most by-laws directed that an issue should be brought to the deacons and if not resolved there, then taken before the congregation for a vote. The reality in most situations is that staff were fired by the deacon board, a few powerful deacons, or some folks in the church who “had money” and paid the minister to “leave quietly.”

    Thus, the efficacy of any “document” lies in the integrity of those are entrusted to administrate it.

  13. I’ve been attending The Chapel for only a couple years now but not a member. I liked TA’s sermons and thought he delivered the message very well, but was unaware of the behind-the-scenes issues that were going on. Never talked to TA one-on-one so I’m not sure if everything was a façade or not.

    Along with Mike Castelli, I hope they decide to re-instate Jim Mitchell too. In the only one-on-one meeting I had with Pastor Jim, he felt very sincere, kind hearted and understanding. As someone else put it, I think Pastor Jim was also “under the spell” of TA and he just followed orders. Like Pastor Mike, Pastor Jim has also been a 20+ year staffer and I hope the trustees can see that Jim more-or-less just got caught up in the new leadership.

  14. “Several members and former members of The Chapel have told me that Senior Pastor Tim Armstrong has been abusive of staff members for years!”

    In the news today, additional allegations came forth about a leading politician who created a work environment that was “toxic, hostile, and abusive.” TWW continues to report the same thing about about ministers and ministries. This ought not to be.

  15. Chapel attendee: Along with Mike Castelli, I hope they decide to re-instate Jim Mitchell too. In the only one-on-one meeting I had with Pastor Jim, he felt very sincere, kind hearted and understanding. As someone else put it, I think Pastor Jim was also “under the spell” of TA and he just followed orders.

    Thanks for your comment, Chapel attendee. I don’t doubt Pastor Jim made a favorable impression on you, but it’s hard to gauge a pastor on one face to face conversation. Hopefully the Constitution Committee will get the facts as they continue their investigation.

  16. FormerVolunteer: I was just a volunteer and I was one in his horrible wake….My mom and I were carrying Sunday School decorations into the church, we had dropped some, he walked around us and never once looked back to see if we were OK or if we needed any help! This was just after he became Sr Pastor. I had lost ALL respect for him.

    Former Volunteer,
    Thanks for commenting. Yours story is, unfortunately, not uncommon among pastors who have lost their way and fancy themselves a celebrity.

    Were I a professor in a Seminary I would use your short comment as an example to my students of how important people should be to them. Your encounter made a lasting negative impression.

  17. Todd Wilhelm: Were I a professor in a Seminary I would use your short comment as an example to my students of how important people should be to them.

    Imagine the seminary courses that could be offered, were seminaries sincere about doing church safely, godly:

    -protection from & dealing with predators who use church as their hunting ground
    -what is a church predator
    -predator pastors among us
    -wrongful use of the Bible for misogyny
    -equality of race & gender as supported by Scripture
    -pastor or snake oil salesman (not using the church for $$$)
    -youth pastors or statutory rapists
    -supporting those dealing with DV
    -supporting those dealing with CSA

    What else?

    Almost everything TWW covers could be written up as a course in seminary. What aren’t seminaries covering these topics.

  18. Ava Aaronson: Imagine the seminary courses that could be offered, were seminaries sincere about doing church safely, godly:

    -protection from & dealing with predators who use church as their hunting ground
    -what is a church predator
    -predator pastors among us
    -wrongful use of the Bible for misogyny
    -equality of race & gender as supported by Scripture
    -pastor or snake oil salesman (not using the church for $$$)
    -youth pastors or statutory rapists
    -supporting those dealing with DV
    -supporting those dealing with CSA

    What else?

    Almost everything TWW covers could be written up as a course in seminary. What aren’t seminaries covering these topics.

    Care for career too often trumps care for the flock. With the worst of them, the former can be the main priority and the latter can be all but obliterated

  19. GPH,

    The right decision was made. It is not necessary to go into detail the abuse from Armstrong. It serves no purpose. Now is the time to trust God and His guidance for the future of the Chapel. The decision was made after a thorough investigation and much prayer. To criticize will only cause more disunity instead of peace.

  20. FormerVolunteer: I was just a volunteer and I was one in his horrible wake….My mom and I were carrying Sunday School decorations into the church, we had dropped some, he walked around us and never once looked back to see if we were OK or if we needed any help! This was just after he became Sr Pastor. I had lost ALL respect for him.

    I need hear no more about how great a preacher/teacher Mr. Armstrong is. If you have not love, you are nothing but a clanging cymbal. He’s in the wrong profession.

  21. Todd Wilhelm: Thanks for your comment, Chapel attendee. I don’t doubt Pastor Jim made a favorable impression on you, but it’s hard to gauge a pastor on one face to face conversation. Hopefully the Constitution Committee will get the facts as they continue their investigation.

    I have known Pastor Jim Mitchell for as long as he has been at The Chapel (30 years). He has always been an honorable and caring person. Even when TA began the “protection” of the pastoral staff by making it so that they weren’t so accessible, Pastor Jim was always available if one needed to talk.

    I believe that he too was sucked in to TA’s act like the trustees were and pray that he will be reinstated.

  22. Anita Levy: The right decision was made. It is not necessary to go into detail the abuse from Armstrong. It serves no purpose. Now is the time to trust God and His guidance for the future of the Chapel. The decision was made after a thorough investigation and much prayer. To criticize will only cause more disunity instead of peace.

    Why are you trying to silence people who are hurting, and who will benefit from solace?

    If the right decisions have been made, what harm can come from talking in great detail about the church’s brilliant solutions? Surely God wants his people to understand precisely what happened and to know in detail how they are now being protected.

    Silence is not the same thing as trusting God. Silencing a whole congregation? I’ve been in a congregation that was told by mere humans not to talk about something painful. The experience harmed people and drove many families away from the church altogether.

    I also note that you think this church will receive God’s guidance. Precisely how is God going to transmit this guidance, if everyone has been banned from using words?

  23. Friend,

    Since people like to quote the Bible in these situations, I like to always bring the story of King David up. Significant details of the infamous fall of David is recorded for all history… we are at least 1,750 years “after the fact” and we can read all the gory details, including the aftermath to Israel.. should we senor the Bible for any of the stories of leaders falling, and the aftermath?

    I complete agree with the post I am responding to, it sounds like this “fallen leader” left allot of “dead bodies under the bus”… those bodies should be told this behavior is not Christlike… publicly.. leaders, especially “spiritual leaders” have a great burden to behave Christlike, and be repentive when called out… guess what, it is “Biblical”!!

  24. Friend: Silence is not the same thing as trusting God. Silencing a whole congregation?

    “For everything there is a season … a time to keep silence, and a time to speak” (Ecclesiastes 3)

  25. Anita Levy:
    GPH,

    The right decision was made. It is not necessary to go into detail the abuse from Armstrong. It serves no purpose. Now is the time to trust God and His guidance for the future of the Chapel. The decision was made after a thorough investigation and much prayer. To criticize will only cause more disunity instead of peace.

    As far as purpose, the verse cited in the article appears to point to a purpose: “But those sinning, rebuke before all, so that the rest might have fear as well.” (1 Timothy 5:20)

  26. Commenting only on the article’s language about “potentially unlawful” removal. I presume this pertains to not having the congregational vote to remove for cause. Reading this as a lawyer, the whole process of removal for cause is rendered moot if the individual tenders their resignation, regardless of whether fault is present or not. Much like Nixon’s resignation rendered the impeachment/trial/removal process moot.

    To read the church constitution to require a vote of membership to remove for cause — after the official has resigned — would be the same logic whereby a church purports to retain church discipline jurisdiction over a member who has resigned and departed on the basis of a membership covenant. I would not expect TWW to endorse such an analysis.

    Whether it would be good/prudent policy to inform the congregation of the reasons for the officials departure in the interests of leadership transparency is a separate question. A congregational vote on the matter may be a useful symbolic action as well, though one without practical legal consequence. I don’t read quoted church constitution provision to require such a vote as a matter of law based on the organization’s internal governing document, or any external controlling law or regulation.

  27. JDV: so that the rest might have fear as well

    The fear always strikes the wrong people, though. Abusers know no fear except that of the loss of power, and their fellow elders and pastors will make sure that is never a threat.

    Meanwhile the pewsitters have learned all too well the power of fear, because they have been threatened with Hell if they dare speak up.

    It’s a tired old trick.

  28. Pray for Dee and her family:

    “My mother has been in the hospital with heart failure. My daughter’s wedding is next week. Needless to say, I’m a bit overwhelmed. That’s the reason I have not been posting on social media. If you have a moment, please pray for my family.”
    11:34 AM · Aug 5, 2021·Twitter Web App

  29. Friend: the pewsitters have learned all too well the power of fear, because they have been threatened with Hell if they dare speak up

    “God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind” (2 Timothy 1:7)

    If there is an atmosphere of fear in a church, you can guarantee another power is at work … and it’s not holy! If a church congregation feels they have no “power” over an abusive pulpit, they are wrong … they have authority in Jesus’ name to set things right, unless they surrender to a counterfeit authority over them. This is the danger of sitting under the “submit”, “touch not thine anointed”, “judge not” message gone amiss in the American church.

  30. drstevej: Pray for Dee and her family:

    “My mother has been in the hospital with heart failure. My daughter’s wedding is next week. Needless to say, I’m a bit overwhelmed. That’s the reason I have not been posting on social media. If you have a moment, please pray for my family.”
    11:34 AM · Aug 5, 2021·Twitter Web App

    Thinking of you, Dee….I know what it’s like to feel overwhelmed.

  31. I just prayed for you Dee. Praying that your daughter’s wedding will be a joyous occasion and that your Mom will be stabilized.

  32. Max: If there is an atmosphere of fear in a church, you can guarantee another power is at work … and it’s not holy!

    During my time in-country, FEAR was a constant. Fear of Nuclear War, Fear of Armageddon, Fear of Satan lurking everywhere, Fear of the Antichrist du Jour, Fear of Being Left Behind in The Rapture (any minute now… any minute now… any minute now…), Fear of God’s Wrath at The Great White Throne on J-Day.

    Fear manipulation was part of Witnessing(TM) then, whipping up Fear to a peak then offering the Plan of Salvation (in the accompanying tract) like selling a timeshare.

    Fear Manipulation, Guilt Manipulation. Leading to a deep distrust of God/Christ/Christians that could last for years.

  33. Chapel Choir Member: I have known Pastor Jim Mitchell for as long as he has been at The Chapel (30 years). He has always been an honorable and caring person. Even when TA began the “protection” of the pastoral staff by making it so that they weren’t so accessible, Pastor Jim was always available if one needed to talk.

    I believe that he too was sucked in to TA’s act like the trustees were and pray that he will be reinstated.

    Thank you for your comment Chapel Choir Member. I got the same feelings from pastor Jim too and appreciate the validation. In my meeting with him, I expressed how I was unwelcomed at other churches in the area. Pastor Jim sat with me for 45 minutes discussing this and said I was welcome to attend services at The Chapel. He easily could have asked me to leave, but I felt nothing but acceptance and understanding from him.

    I do not attend bible study groups at The Chapel, so I am not as involved as others to notice many staff changes. If I did not check the staff listing on the website from time to time, I probably wouldn’t have noticed these changes other than some on the worship team. Because I’m unfamiliar with larger churches, I thought this might be normal for them, but now I’m thinking it could be because TA forced some people out. One thing I did notice was that many times TA wasn’t present when the service started and would walk in late. Normal for other churches this size? I’m not sure. Hope I’m not being judgmental in this regard and if I am, I apologize.

  34. JDV: As far as purpose, the verse cited in the article appears to point to a purpose: “But those sinning, rebuke before all, so that the rest might have fear as well.” (1 Timothy 5:20)

    Yet all too often, they may as well be quoting a line from Zootopia:
    “FEAR ALWAYS WORKS!”
    — Acting Mayor Bellwether

    (Spoiler alert for those who have not seen Zootopia. Bellwether (a ewe – talk about sheep’s clothing) is the main Bad Guy, manipulating things behind the scenes to trigger an ethnic conflict/race war between Zootopia‘s majority herbivore and minority carnivore populations for her own political gain. The theme of Zootopia is that predator and prey species are trying to make a go of it together, despite each fearing and distrusting the other. Herbivore hindbrains cannot forget that the carnivores once hunted and ATE them; Carnivores cannot forget that herbivores outnumber them 10 to one and could mob them by sheer force of numbers.)

  35. To “A Lawyer,”
    Thanks for your comment, it’s great to receive legal opinions from an expert! I agree with most of what you have stated and I assume this is what church leadership would argue as well. What I disagree with is your opening two sentences:

    “Commenting only on the article’s language about “potentially unlawful” removal. I presume this pertains to not having the congregational vote to remove for cause.”

    I was not referring to Armstrong’s removal being unlawful. I was referring to his workplace harassment. Here is the quote:

    “Further, their choice to allow Armstrong to write a note to church members in the Leader Update of July 30, in which Armstrong made no mention of his workplace harassment was unwise. This harassment is not only sinful, but is likely unlawful.”

    While I am glad Tim Armstrong is no longer the senior pastor of The Chapel Church, I have a problem with how The Chapel’s leadership failed to follow their own rules in the process.

    Below is a quote from the July 30th Leadership Update:

    “After extensive review, the evidence reveals a consistent pattern of conduct that substantiates the concerns raised about Pastor Tim’s leadership of the staff. Given this troubling and consistent fact-pattern, The Constitution Committee unanimously recommended to the Trustees that Pastor Tim, in accordance with language outlined in The Chapel’s Constitution, is unable to fulfill the duties of senior pastor and therefore cannot be restored to the role of senior pastor of The Chapel. The Trustees unanimously voted to affirm that recommendation. Pastor Tim agreed to resign, effective immediately.”

    This narrative is not clear on how the sequence of events unfolded, but let me venture a guess as to what may have taken place.

    Initially Armstrong was asked why he fired Castelli. Armstrong stated that “there existed under Pastor Mike’s leadership a culture among the staff at the Green Campus that did not support Pastor Tim’s overall vision for the church.”

    The Trustees received a different story when they spoke with Castelli. About the same time “concerns of a very different nature were brought to the Board of Trustees, involving claims against Pastor Tim of harshness and fear-based leadership toward The Chapel’s staff.”

    Representatives from the Board of Trustees would have met with Armstrong to discuss Castelli’s response and the new claims they received. I doubt Armstrong’s response was forthright, and it conflicted with Castelli’s response. The Board then decided their best course of action was to place the Armstrong, Mitchel, and Castelli on administrative leave and call for a Constitution Committee to look into the matter. They also decided to hire The Center Consulting Group to help discover the truth.

    At this point Armstrong could have resigned to “preserve the unity of the church and staff.” He did not. I refer again to the July 30th Leadership Update. These are Tim Armstrong’s words:

    “My greatest desires are for the unity of the church and staff and therefore agree with the Trustee’s that it would be best for me to resign my position as Senior Pastor of The Chapel.”

    It is clear that on or about the last week of July 2021 some, or all of the Board of Trustees met with Tim Armstrong and told him that both the Constitution Committee and the Board of Trustees voted unanimously not to restore Armstrong to the role of senior pastor.

    At this point Armstrong realized the gig was up and decided his best course of action was to resign quietly, admit to nothing, and claim for the sake of church unity he would resign.

    My problem here is with the process as carried out by church leadership, independent of Armstrong’s actions. The title of this article is “Why didn’t The Chapel Church Board of Trustees Follow Their Constitution in Removal of Tim Armstrong?” As quoted in my article, the removal process required a 2/3 vote by three entities – the Constitution Committee, the Board of Trustees, and the membership of the church at a special meeting.

    In my opinion, the Board of Trustees failed to follow their Constitution when they met with Armstrong prior to the vote of the church. Of course Armstrong could have resigned at any time, but I feel it was wrong for the Board of Trustees to broker a deal with him prior to the membership vote.

    Again, in my opinion, the unity of the church could have been best maintained by following the rules laid out in their Constitution. Had the membership meeting taken place the church leaders would have had to plainly lay out the complete results of the investigation. It may have been ugly, but in the long run, truth is always the best policy. It remains to be seen whether the leadership will, at some point in the future, be completely transparent with members, as they have promised numerous times in their updates that they will.

  36. off topic.
    I excerpted long chunks of this very good, informative article you see below from ‘Christian Post’ to my Daisy blog.

    Part of the article mentions Nouthetic Counseling, and how it is detrimental to Christian women who were in abusive marriages
    (the page especially addresses verbal and emotional abuse):

    Spouses Suffering Abuse Find Empowerment to Leave Destructive Marriages in Secret Online Groups
    https://www.christianpost.com/news/christians-suffering-marital-abuse-find-empowerment-to-leave.html

    One point of a few I brought up in my comments about it over at my Daisy blog – this sort of thing is not confined to abusive marriages only.

    If you’ve ever had anxiety disorders, a bully boss at a lousy job, a terrible sibling or parent, (or whatever problem), when you go to another Christian about whatever the problem is, most of them will treat you the same way unhelpful pastors treat women in abusive marriages.

    The usual Christian will shame you for telling them, shame you for having negative emotions, tell you to just put up with it, just “pray” the problem away, just buckle down and try harder, etc.

    Women in abusive marriages get those lines and shoddy advice from Christians quite a bit, but so to does anyone dealing with other problems in life.

    It’s a really common situation for many people dealing with many different types of problems.

    I’m still rather astounded that in 2021 so many Christians and denominations are still acting this way.

  37. Friend: the pewsitters

    It’s my hope that one day the “pewsitters” will realize they are the Church. On Roys’ recent podcast, Rebecca Davis talked about going upstream to stop people from falling into the river in the first place. I think one of the cliffs “pewsitters” are falling off is the abdication of their collective authority as the Church and their submission to self-appointed leaders who think the Church exists to serve them, instead of the other way around. I think “pewsitters” are so accustomed to thinking this way at this moment in evangelical history it will be 5-10 years before large numbers even begin to entertain the thought they don’t have to be slaves to their leaders.

  38. Chapel attendee: Pastor Jim sat with me for 45 minutes discussing this and said I was welcome to attend services at The Chapel. He easily could have asked me to leave, but I felt nothing but acceptance and understanding from him.

    How awful that you felt unwelcome at other churches. Granted, every group has its quirks, but a church will wither if it wards people off.

    I do not think that any pastor could “easily” ask a visitor to leave. I understand that you are saying he treated you kindly, but you sought a pastor to discuss participation in that church. You were not committing a crime or even a small violation of etiquette. You were offering to be a part of the congregation! Any pastor should express THANKS to you.

    May God bless you as you continue your earnest quest for fellowship.

    More generally (not about you)…

    All of us need to hold pastors to a far higher standard.

    A pastor is not a bouncer at a disco.

    We are the people of God, and the church is supposed to be God’s house.

  39. Chapel attendee: One thing I did notice was that many times TA wasn’t present when the service started and would walk in late. Normal for other churches this size? I’m not sure.

    For a while, TCC was ‘his’ church … he could do whatever he wanted to.

  40. Chapel attendee: Thank you for your comment Chapel Choir Member. I got the same feelings from pastor Jim too and appreciate the validation. In my meeting with him, I expressed how I was unwelcomed at other churches in the area. Pastor Jim sat with me for 45 minutes discussing this and said I was welcome to attend services at The Chapel. He easily could have asked me to leave, but I felt nothing but acceptance and understanding from him.

    You are welcome! Pastor Jim was the associate choir director for many years then was the head of the music department from 1998 until TA came in 2014 and Jim was promoted to Executive Pastor. So I am very familiar with him. He has always been a very humble man.

    I have not been in the choir since 2017 when I had to move back to the area I grew up in to take care of my Dad. But even then he was always accessible.

    Just recently I texted him in March to see if I could call him with a prayer request. He was in meetings but said he would get back with me.
    A couple weeks later I stopped in at the church to see if I could talk with him. His secretary said he was in meetings but she would let him know I had stopped by.

    Before I even got out of the church building he came to find me apologizing for having not having gotten back with me. I shared my prayer request and he immediately prayed for the situation.

    That speaks volumes to me of the kind of man he is. I truly pray that he is reinstated. I pray the same thing for Pastor Mike.

  41. Chapel Choir Member: Before I even got out of the church building he came to find me apologizing for having not having gotten back with me. I shared my prayer request and he immediately prayed for the situation.

    He does sound like a caring and skilled pastor.

  42. Friend: I understand that you are saying he treated you kindly, but you sought a pastor to discuss participation in that church. You were not committing a crime or even a small violation of etiquette. You were offering to be a part of the congregation! Any pastor should express THANKS to you.

    Yes, you are correct. My wording was a little backwards. After my 45 minute discussion with Pastor Jim Mitchell, I felt nothing but acceptance and understanding from him and he welcomed me to worship there. Jim easily could have said The Chapel wasn’t for me, like other churches have done. Thankfully this was not the case.

    Friend:May God bless you as you continue your earnest quest for fellowship.

    Thank you Friend for your encouragement and support!

    Chapel Choir Member: Before I even got out of the church building he came to find me apologizing for having not having gotten back with me. I shared my prayer request and he immediately prayed for the situation.

    That speaks volumes to me of the kind of man he is. I truly pray that he is reinstated. I pray the same thing for Pastor Mike.

    I agree, what a good story that shows who Jim Mitchell is. Thank you for sharing more details. Any time I would see Pastor Jim on Sundays either walking in/out of church, he always went out of his way to say hello to me. Also pray that Pastors Jim and Mike are re-instated after the committee’s investigation.

  43. Paul K: I think “pewsitters” are so accustomed to thinking this way at this moment in evangelical history it will be 5-10 years before large numbers even begin to entertain the thought they don’t have to be slaves to their leaders.

    Sheila Gregoire and co. speculated today that the church is going through another reformation. That was oddly encouraging to hear.

    Fast forward to the 44:20 mark to hear this section of the podcast: https://tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2021/08/podcast-on-sex-new-reformation/

    PSA, if you listen to the earlier part of the podcast with young children around, there will probably be some awkward questions to answer later on.

  44. Wild Honey,

    Ms. Gregoire has an interesting market niche, but her message is, “God demands women put out!” just like all the patriarchy-bros. When one starts from the premise that an enormous amount of attention to having sex is “Godly,” one always comes back fairly quickly to “God demands women put out!” I got strong whiffs of Mark Driscoll.

  45. Todd Wilhelm:
    Ava Aaronson,
    That’s a fairly complete list. Perhaps a few hours could be spent on servant leadership!

    Based on a lifetime of church. and time spent working in a denominational organization, my impression of “servant leadership” is that it sounds great but in actual practice becomes, “You be the servant, I’ll be the leader.”

    Jesus never told his followers to be leaders. He told them, “Anyone who wants to be first must be the very last, and the servant of all.” (Mark 9:35)
    Paul called himself a “servant of Jesus Christ.” (Romans 1;1,Philippians 1:1)

    It’s not Scripture, but I like this definition: “Leadership is not about being in charge. Leadership is about taking care of those in your charge.” (Simon Sinek)

  46. emr: Jesus never told his followers to be leaders. He told them, “Anyone who wants to be first must be the very last, and the servant of all.” (Mark 9:35)

    There seems to be a strong tendency to read that text as continuing, in a circular fashion, back to “and then you’ll be first!” However, I think a stronger reading is that wanting to be first is problematic.

  47. emr: my impression of “servant leadership” is that it sounds great but in actual practice becomes, “You be the servant, I’ll be the leader.”

    Christianity has built-in paradoxes. Unfortunately some among us invent more and more of them, and abandon all attempts at thinking. Why stop at life overcoming death, when you can say that red equals green? Sure, that’ll preach.

    And likewise here with the servant leader trope. I’ve long suspected that adding “leader” was the only way to get 100% all-male authority class to call themselves servants.

  48. emr,

    In my secular humanist, Big State U, I have had “leaders” that were totally “in it” for themselves, and I have had leaders that pursued “servant leadership” . It is possible.

  49. Friend: What even is that?

    Latest buzzword for Clergy Holds the Whip, Laity Feels the Whip.
    Making long prayers for justification.

  50. The funny thing is, all those servant leaders disqualify themselves from being considered leaders as soon as they want to be so considered.

    Basically Jesus said: you want to be important in the church? OK, go clean the toilets. Scrub the floors. Clean the toys in the nursery of baby spit and who knows what else. Clean out the dreaded church fridge, clean the oven, scrub down the kitchen. And oh, do it all Tuesday in the early morning so no one ever knows you did it.

    THAT is “being a leader.” The first to get their hands dirty WITHOUT the view or approval of other human beings.

  51. Todd Wilhelm:
    To “A Lawyer,”
    Thanks for your comment, …

    Thx for the clarification on what you see as the legal issues, TW. I still think the removal process here does not indicate impropriety in the context of US common law or organizational law as scoped by the church constitution. There may be fair comment to be offered on how this removal occurred, on the basis of scripture, principles of transparent leadership, or other moral/leadership grounds. But I think an assertion of legal error or impropriety would not survive summary judgment in any court or employment commission in the land.

    As in every case, for the right fee there is always a lawyer willing to make the contrary argument. 😉

  52. Cynthia W.,

    Yes, I think she is open about her niche audience. That’s an interesting observation of whiffs of Mark Driscoll, given what she said about him earlier in that particular podcast. May I ask what specifically triggered the thought that she says that “God demands women put out”? I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts particularly in context of what she defines as “sex.”

  53. linda,

    Excellent comments, linda. That’s very much what I was thinking, that Jesus is saying, “The problem is that you want to be ‘first’ at all!”

    This is not to say that there’s no place for leadership in the church or elsewhere. I just don’t think that situation is addressed by the verses under discussion. Good leadership is much more about a combination of high character and high competence, and affixing “servant” to that really isn’t helpful.

  54. Cynthia W.: Ms. Gregoire has an interesting market niche, but her message is, “God demands women put out!” just like all the patriarchy-bros.

    God demands no such thing.
    Be wary of anyone who says that God demands this, that, or the other, when you (generic you) know in your own spirit as an individual human being, that it Does Not Apply to you.

  55. Wild Honey,

    Part of the issue with the book is that she’s trying to say both A and not-A: that sex isn’t simply a genetical act to void the prostate and/or experience a physical release, and also, that sex is simply a genital act that’s “needed” to void the prostate and/or experience a physical release. She wants to say both that sex is an incredible, god-given, unitary experience and a household product like a clean toilet or weed-eating.

    Chapter 8 was particularly difficult (though I managed not to throw up): she uses “lazy” and “incredibly selfish” to describe a person whose “spouse has a stronger felt need for sex than you do, and you “choose not to give it to them because of convenience,” “convenience” meaning, “I’d rather do other stuff.” I translate that as, “God demands women put out,” because sex is a household job like changing a diaper, and you wouldn’t say, “I’d rather read a book than change the baby’s diaper,” would you?

    Zooming out to look at the larger picture, I think the source of the cognitive conflict is the unsupported premise – It’s “The Question-Begging Fallacy,” simply asserting what needs to be argued – that “great marital sex” is the pinnacle of human relationship. This belief devalues every other relationship besides a spousal relationship (given that Ms. Gregoire does not roll in fornicating or adulterous sexual relationships). The vast majority of the relationships in every person’s life – ALL the relationships in the lives of unmarried people – are categorically declared less-than because they don’t include f*****g.

    I know I’m rambling on here, but at least I’m not throwing up.

  56. Muff Potter,

    Gregoire makes handsome bank off of what she sells, and she does it by tapping into insecurity and the very human desire for validation.
    I think Eurythmics put it best in 1983:

    Sweet dreams are made of this
    Who am I to disagree?
    I travel the world and the seven seas
    Everybody’s looking for something…

  57. Muff Potter,

    I don’t want to be judgmental, and I’m sure there are many who are helped. However, I think her anthropology is destructively wrong in some important ways.

    For example, at the beginning of Chapter 12, she says orgasm is “the pinnacle of human emotional experience.” That is JUST SO MULTIPLE EXPLETIVES WRONG.

    She keeps saying, “God wants you to have amazing, mind-blowing, toe-curling sex!” (Where is that in the Bible?) It’s fine, I guess, if she believes that, especially if it’s stated contra the opposite, such as, “God doesn’t want you to,” or “God wants you to have unpleasant sex.”

  58. emr: “Leadership is not about being in charge. Leadership is about taking care of those in your charge.” (Simon Sinek)

    … and “taking care of” folks in church doesn’t mean getting rid of anyone and everyone who gets in the way of ‘your’ “vision” … as a hit man “taking care of” those whom the crime boss doesn’t like.

  59. Cynthia W.: Ms. Gregoire

    Comment on the very interesting side topic discussion of Ms. Gregoire:

    Her message of mutuality during intimacy is good. Both the guy & the lady should experience pleasure, equally. If not, something is wrong.

    However, the pinnacle of human experience, emotionally & everything else, IMHO, still goes back to Jesus’ recommendations to:
    1. Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, & strength
    2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

    Neither of these requires marriage and often have nothing to do with marriage; marriage has its place, nothing more or less. The sex focus (focus!) is a myth, a rabbit hole, maybe even a black hole. There’s more to living than life in the sack; it has its place, nothing more, nothing less. “Wide my world, narrow my bed” some say.

  60. Max: emr: “Leadership is not about being in charge. Leadership is about taking care of those in your charge.” (Simon Sinek)

    … and “taking care of” folks in church doesn’t mean getting rid of anyone and everyone who gets in the way of ‘your’ “vision” … as a hit man “taking care of” those whom the crime boss doesn’t like.

    1. I like Simon Sinek’s take on leadership, the social contract, etc. His videos on youtube (free) and books (including audio for when busy with no time to even sit down) are interesting, thought-provoking. “Leaders eat last” is another of his sayings.

    2. Now that you mention it, Max, YES, I’ve seen the hitman action live in churches that have a boss-don (with followers who kiss his ring) in charge.

  61. Max: … and “taking care of” folks in church doesn’t mean getting rid of anyone and everyone who gets in the way of ‘your’ “vision” … as a hit man “taking care of” those whom the crime boss doesn’t like.

    If a person is attending a church, and they are not part of the vision of that church/leadership, then leave the church.

    IOW, if a person is an orphan or a widow, for example, and the church they attend has NOTHING (not even encouragement) for orphans & widows, then that person should not feel guilty or unseen or shame, they should just LEAVE.

  62. Ava Aaronson: The sex focus (focus!) is a myth, a rabbit hole, maybe even a black hole. There’s more to living than life in the sack; it has its place, nothing more, nothing less.

    Yes, I totally agree with this. Ms. Gregoire’s emphasis seems unbalanced to me.

  63. Cynthia W.:
    For example, at the beginning of Chapter 12, she says orgasm is “the pinnacle of human emotional experience.” That is JUST SO MULTIPLE EXPLETIVES WRONG.

    *drily* as an middle aged single woman who is not in a sexual relationship and not interested in being in a sexual relationship, I guess I’m just doing it wrong. And I don’t think the orgasm is the “pinnacle of human emotional experience.” I do think that the pinnacle of my human emotional experience is best expressed by 1 Corinthians 13:12: “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

    I have had those moments, they are overwhelming and unforgettable. The orgasm doesn’t really match up to that.

  64. Cynthia W.,

    I can’t speak for Sheila, so I’ll just provide some additional context from Chapter 8 of “The Great Sex Rescue,” if this is the book you happen to be referring to, since a similar statement to what you quoted appears on page 140.

    “If you are continuously choosing video games, Netflix, or anything else over your spouse and your marriage, your marriage will seriously suffer long-term” (pg 141.” I note that Gregiore’s examples are choosing entertainment and personal gratification (video games, Netflix, pornography, etc.) over an emotionally intimate encounter with one’s spouse. The example you chose of changing a dirty diaper is at least contributing to the healthy functioning of the household, but that’s a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison.

    “Nevertheless, let’s not be quick to assume that a spouse withholding sex is always doing so for selfish or sinful reasons” (pg 143). The remaining 13 pages of the chapter touch on topics such as sexual abuse and trauma, physical sexual dysfunction of both men and women, emotional abuse, lack of emotional intimacy (“Many sexless marriages have, at their root, not a selfish refusal on the part of one spouse but rather an attempt at emotional protection,” pg 147.), and even marriages in which intercourse takes place but is one-sided in the pleasure department (so, more like a clean toilet than a stash if ice cream in the freezer, if we’re comparing to household products). In fact, when talking about their survey results, “almost no sexless marriages were caused by women giving up on sex WITHOUT CAUSE” (pg 152, emphasis mine).

    Was there a particular place in the book that states that great marital sex is “the pinnacle of human relationship”? I saw it described as a fulfillment for emotional connection in the context of MARRIAGE (as you noted, she IS addressing a niche market), but not a hierarchy of the marital relationship compared to those with one’s parents/siblings/BFFs/children/etc.

  65. Max: … and “taking care of” folks in church doesn’t mean getting rid of anyone and everyone who gets in the way of ‘your’ “vision” … as a hit man “taking care of” those whom the crime boss doesn’t like.

    If there are POC attending a local church, and the leadership does not address the POC issues they are facing in society, then leave & do not support the church where congregants are unseen.

    “But there are too many issues to address. We don’t have time.”

    Oh yeah? There are 52 Sundays in a year, and decades of church attendance by each parishioner. Lots of opportunity.

    Many of the issues regular people face day-to-day are NEVER addressed from the leadership. Such leadership loves itself, NOT neighbor as self. Been there, seen that. Moved on.

    In Julie Roys’ article about BBC & institutions today, it was exactly that. People kept going to the leadership about their concerns, getting a nod, then NOTHING done. Leadership moved on. Over & over. Time for supporters to move on, then. Leadership doesn’t have time? Then “the rest of us” don’t have time for their church cosplay, either.

  66. Wild Honey,

    Yes, that was the book. I read it over strong feelings of revulsion, just to be fair.

    She used the words that orgasm is the pinnacle of human emotional experience. Now, it is true that not everyone gets stone-cold fixated on the actual words of texts the way I do. Other people would say, “Oh, I get what that’s intended to convey; don’t be so literal, Cynthia.”

    However, I think the intense emphasis on the marvelous magnificence of sex, and the constant connection of that to “What God Wants For You,” is … what’s a good word … really “niche” … and denigrating to all one’s other relationships and even to all one’s non-bodily-function-related intimacy in marriage.

    It is also true that Ms. Gregoire’s ministry and books may be just the thing for some people.

  67. Ava Aaronson,

    Granted, that particular sentence could be more qualified. The entire sentence is, “Ponder that for a moment: at the pinnacle of human emotional experience, it’s not about THINKING as much as it is about BEING” (pg 217, emphasis original). Here, it’s in the context of orgasm. But if I were to take it out of this context, it’s an umbrella statement that could be applied to any number of positive, strong emotional encounters. Cuddling with one’s child to give comfort after they’ve had a bad fall. Helping a beloved, elderly parent or grandparent with a task and joyfully shouldering that responsibility. Being a listening ear or a shoulder to cry on to a friend or loved one who is undergoing trauma.

    If we’re going to refrain from cherry-picking Gregiore’s latest book, shouldn’t we also balance this particular sentence with the number of times she mentions the guiding principle of living like or being like Jesus, who (at least in the Protestant tradition Gregiore ascribes to) was never married and lived without sin, so likely never had sex?

  68. Friend: What even is that?

    I listened to an interview with Kristen Kobe Du Mez (spelling?) on the Holy Post in which she claimed “servant leadership” was first coined for middle-management training for Walmart employees. I’d have to check sources, but she’s legit. Anyway, I want pastors to be servants…not leaders, not servant leaders, but servants. The only way to do this IMO is for the collective congregation to be the ultimate authority in every church or denomination. Service always flows upward to the highest authority. If pastors have more authority than their congregation, the congregation will serve the pastors, not the other way around.

  69. Wild Honey: shouldn’t we also balance this particular sentence with the number of times she mentions the guiding principle of living like or being like Jesus

    Yes, we should. There are many good points among the ones with which I disagree.

  70. JDV,

    “Care for career too often trumps care for the flock. With the worst of them, the former can be the main priority and the latter can be all but obliterated”
    +++++++++++++++

    as i see it, it’s become standard practice, such that even the best of them don’t really question it. it’s assumed to be biblical & God-sanctioned.

    I see pastors everywhere simply accepting everything their peers are doing and everything endorsed with a big name — without scrutiny.

    it’s amazing to me how professional christians are so easily taken in, without consideration for how ethical, how destructive to human lives…

    the lack of awareness of consequences is staggering.

    (and now i’m going to make a very plain-spoken observation: women in leadership do not miss the spectrum of consequences)

  71. Cynthia W.,

    “orgasm is “the pinnacle of human emotional experience.”
    ++++++++

    no it’s not.

    and it’s not because i may or may not have had sex with both

    1) ‘Sheldon’, (“who can do your income taxes. If you need a root canal, Sheldon’s your man”)

    2) Mr. Incredible

  72. Cynthia W.,

    “She keeps saying, “God wants you to have amazing, mind-blowing, toe-curling sex!” (Where is that in the Bible?)”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    an argument from silence.

    “if that’s what you want, great! if you don’t, ‘tcha, fine. Let’s just work together to create something good.”–God

  73. Vicki Caswell:
    My husband’s Facebook post is quoted above. I was one of the first on Armstrong’s chopping block in January 2015. After 17 on Chapel staff, I was fired soon after he became senior pastor. Never saw it coming! (It’s a long story and would love to share it with you if you’d like to contact me.) You are spot on in your assessments. Armstrong is a cold hearted, vindictive bully and is being coddled, when he should have to answer for his behavior. And you are correct in your assessment that Pastor Mike Castelli is an honorable, humble man with an amazing shepherd’s heart for his church. (Pastor Neumeyer is an honorable man as well.) This whole thing is heartbreaking, but we know God will bring all truth to light.

    Max: … and “taking care of” folks in church doesn’t mean getting rid of anyone and everyone who gets in the way of ‘your’ “vision”… as a hit man “taking care of” those whom the crime boss doesn’t like.

    Max: … and “taking care of” folks in church doesn’t mean getting rid of anyone and everyone who gets in the way of ‘your’ “vision”… as a hit man “taking care of” those whom the crime boss doesn’t like.

    Max: … and “taking care of” folks in church doesn’t mean getting rid of anyone and everyone who gets in the way of ‘your’ “vision”… as a hit man “taking care of” those whom the crime boss doesn’t like.

  74. elastigirl: if that’s what you want, great! if you don’t, ‘tcha, fine.

    Yes, moderation rather than browbeating. I think I might be overreacting due to trauma and a categorizing and syllogizing habit of mind. However, even a few people’s somewhat understanding is encouraging: maybe I’m not completely crazy!

  75. elastigirl,

    Google turns up a remarkable number of correlations of “Sheldon” and “income tax.” I did not include “root canal” in the search ;-).

  76. elastigirl,

    “new levels of awareness”
    +++++++++

    …which, really, just serve to resort it all with obvious common sense taking *at least* the top 10 spots.

  77. Cynthia W.,

    no need for 53 new christian books, 87 different blog post articles from 87 different professional christians to come up with what everyone else already knows.

  78. elastigirl,

    “varied and assorted life experience = new levels of awareness. as i see it.”
    ++++++++++++

    so, i’m not being all that succinct today. what i mean is one who is not a potato just sitting there at once sees the deeper meaning and significance and the fact most of it can be boiled down to common sense.

  79. What a sad and hurtful time for so many of us who called the Chapel our church! Not only do we hurt, but Christianity experiences such harmful damage. Heaven must be weeping over this also. All things work for good for those who love the Lord ~ in his time and will.
    But my main concern and heartache are for Pastor Burnham and Pastor Larson! I am assuming this situation has not been kept from them. Their hearts must be breaking as they see this turmoil going on where they spent so many successful years serving our Lord and a growing, Christ loving congregation. My prayers are for those faithful men as they grieve over what has happened after 80 plus years to The Chapel in Akron!

  80. Beverly Bertka,

    Beverly, I really feel bad for you and all the members of your congregation who are going through this. I hope you come out at the end with pastors who really care for you and are part of a positive experience of Christ for everyone in the church.

  81. Beverly Bertka: My prayers are for those faithful men as they grieve over what has happened after 80 plus years to The Chapel in Akron!

    And one unfaithful man has tainted the foundation they laid. It didn’t have to be. The Board of Trustees should have dealt with Mr. Armstrong years ago to protect the church, its members, and its legacy. So what if he was a “great teacher” … there are lots of great teachers in the Body of Christ who have integrity.

  82. Paul K: The only way to do this IMO is for the collective congregation to be the ultimate authority in every church or denomination. Service always flows upward to the highest authority. If pastors have more authority than their congregation, the congregation will serve the pastors, not the other way around.

    Roman Catholicism and the Lutheran Church have done this for centuries with strong central governments.
    Perfect?
    No, I am not saying that, the Catholic Church has had its own set of problems over time, but they’ve learned from them, what works and what doesn’t.
    Chapel Church, like so many in the fundagelical landscape are pastor-centric, the pastor answers to no one but himself.
    By contrast, the Lutheran polity has safeguards that prevents a tribal strong-man from taking over a pulpit and ruling as an autocrat.

  83. Muff Potter: No, I am not saying that, the Catholic Church has had its own set of problems over time, but they’ve learned from them, what works and what doesn’t.

    I see what you are saying, but the RCC’s gross mishandling of a calamitous child sex abuse problem is a show stopper for me. Their work against extending statutes of limitations serves to protect predators at the expense of victims. The good does not outweigh the bad… in my view.

  84. elastigirl: no need for 53 new christian books, 87 different blog post articles from 87 different professional christians to come up with what everyone else already knows.

    They don’t call it the CIC (christian industrial complex) for nuthin’…

  85. Mr. Jesperson: The story got picked up by Roys today: https://julieroys.com/ohio-church-pastor-harsh-leadership/

    Great! The more attention this story gets, the better. If enough people read about Armstrong’s heavy-handed, authoritarian ways there is a chance he may have to obtain a job outside of the 501(C)3 Institutional church world. (A slim chance, but a chance, nonetheless.) I will be watching to see if Cedarville University will remove Armstrong from their Board of Trustees – slim chance of that happening either!

  86. Tim was not at The Chapel even a month and wanted to upgrade or remodel parts of the church. I didnt like the idea , but who was I to argue. LOL a grma! Then no more Christmas concerts , no more Operation Chr. child, no more Labor of Love runs, and it goes on! wow! That was just from what I as a 47 yr member I saw. I didnt like it. I used to volunteer a lot! A greeter with my family in freezing weather, rain, or hot outside! After Tim never once said Thanks, we quietly faded out. This is just what I observed from the beginning of his,monarcy.

  87. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

    Bears repeating! I take enormous comfort just from knowing that, in the present, “I have been fully understood,” as well as the promise, “Then I shall understand fully.”

  88. Wabbitwady: Tim was not at The Chapel even a month and wanted to upgrade or remodel parts of the church … no more Christmas concerts , no more Operation Chr. child, no more Labor of Love runs, and it goes on! … we quietly faded out

    You were wise to leave when you did. The only way a narcissist can gain complete control of a church is to do away with the old in order to establish the new. He needs his own framework to manipulate, intimidate, and dominate … the system must revolve around him. All the things you mention were red flags that should have been dealt with decisively by the Board of Trustees, not to mention that they let him have his way for seven more years! When the fingers start pointing at TCC, they need to be squarely in the face of the Trustees.

  89. Todd Wilhelm: If enough people read about Armstrong’s heavy-handed, authoritarian ways there is a chance he may have to obtain a job outside of the 501(C)3 Institutional church world. (A slim chance, but a chance, nonetheless.)

    Oh, I’m sure we will see Mr. Armstrong pop up again in ministry after a short “restoration” period. His buddy network is already at work to secure him the next pulpit. The beat goes on with these characters. I pity the poor souls who inherit him.

  90. Max: Oh, I’m sure we will see Mr. Armstrong pop up again in ministry after a short “restoration” period.

    Just long enough to let the heat blow over and fabricate the New Vision from God to Comeback.
    (Like the mystery guy at the Wyoming gas station not only recognizing the ManaGAWD on sight, but laying on hands and Prophesying over him to Return before vanishing just like an Evangelical Angel Encounter.)

  91. Max: The only way a narcissist can gain complete control of a church is to do away with the old in order to establish the new.

    “It is not only necessary to destroy the Old Order, the New Order must be previously set up.”
    — Adolf Hitler, cult leader

  92. Friend: I see what you are saying, but the RCC’s gross mishandling of a calamitous child sex abuse problem is a show stopper for me. Their work against extending statutes of limitations serves to protect predators at the expense of victims. The good does not outweigh the bad… in my view.

    Disagree.

    Yes, there are still some Really Bad Bishops. But there are many more who are exponentially more transparent than just about any Protestant preacher I can think of.

    According to the (independent) John Jay Study, about 4% of Catholic priests were “credibly accused” of sex abuse over a 40-year period. That is 4% too many. But, according to all other studies, it is roughly the same as the percentage of clerical sex abusers in *every other* Christian communion. IOW: *All* churches have a similar *percentage* of clerical sex abusers. Most fly under the radar, and few even get reported, but that does not obviate the fact that they exist.

    Bottom line: The Catholic Church is not any more prone to this horrific evil than any other communion. Including yours.

    In fact, given recent reforms, we may now have actually cleaned up our act better than some other communions. Perhaps including yours.

    Please note that I am NOT even remotely condoning even a single instance of sex abuse. Far, far from it.

    Nor am I unaware of remaining issues, particularly among certain hierarchs, such as Cardinals Tobin and Gregory.

    But this idea that the Catholic Church has cornered the market on sex abuse is absolute baloney. The vast majority of our priests and bishops are neither abusers nor enablers. And I am tired of seeing good, hardworking, humble priests (like my own pastor) tarred with this very broad brush.

    Sin is an equal-opportunity affliction.

    There are 1.3 billion Catholics in the world and 70 million in America. No single Protestant group even comes close to that number. Percentage-wise, y’all have the *same abuse problem* we do. So, WADR, kindly dismount from your high horse and address your own communion’s issues. I guarantee that we are addressing ours…with the laypeople leading the way.

    BTW I am the daughter of a molestation victim (although the perp was not a priest), so I can assure you that I do not minimize abuse.

    Thanks for letting me vent.

  93. Cynthia W.: She keeps saying, “God wants you to have amazing, mind-blowing, toe-curling sex!” (Where is that in the Bible?) It’s fine, I guess, if she believes that, especially if it’s stated contra the opposite, such as, “God doesn’t want you to,” or “God wants you to have unpleasant sex.”

    Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends
    She got a lot of pretty, pretty boys she calls friends
    How they dance in the courtyard, sweet summer sweat.
    Some dance to remember, some dance to forget…

    — Henley, Frey, and Felder 1976 —

  94. Catholic Gate-Crasher: So, WADR, kindly dismount from your high horse and address your own communion’s issues. I guarantee that we are addressing ours…with the laypeople leading the way.

    BTW I am the daughter of a molestation victim (although the perp was not a priest), so I can assure you that I do not minimize abuse.

    Thanks for letting me vent.

    I always value your comments. Thank you for your response. I gave an opinion. Both of us are entitled to our opinions. Still… if abuse is equal everywhere, and everyone is equally ineffectual at preventing, exposing, or speedily eliminating it, maybe we should all consider leaving churches and abandoning Christianity altogether. My own congregation has extensive safeguards, and in exchange for the privilege of religious freedom, I keep an eye on things when I’m able to go there.

    I was sexually abused inside a Protestant church during a youth group event, so my high horse is actually an informed nag.

  95. Why did TA leave his previous church to take basically a lateral move? I never liked that from the beginning. Also I know from conversations with leaders and staff at the church he definitely played favorites and didn’t mingle with the “underlings”. Some barely knew him and I’m not talking about parishioners. Seems the only thing really important to him was his radio show the Worthy Walk. Kind of ironic.

  96. I sincerely hope the “trustees” will do a thorough investigation of ALL the information that is presented to them by this consultant group. I’m not so sure this toxic environment was not fostered by others. My concern is that the trustees harbor “warm fuzzy feelings” for Mitchell in that he’s been with the Chapel for 20+ years (or more). Certainly an administrative pastor carried out the directives of the lead pastor. Not saying he’s also guilty of the same leadership deficits but a thorough examination of those in top leadership roles is mandatory!

    My brief exposure while serving as an usher years ago left a lot to be desired from so called “higher ups”. My focus should always be you are doing this for the ‘Most High’ and not men. Remember, men will always fail you, Jesus will not!