The Tycho Supernova: Death of a Star-NASA
“It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
Today, I did some reading about Mark Driscoll. For the first time, I felt somewhat sorry for the people who attend the church. I read a newsletter put out by the church and I realized that they are deluded. I believe they have put themselves into a situation that is slowly marching to another epic failure. One thing Driscoll is good for is epic meltdowns. Why are those folks there?
Cognitive Dissonance
Quoting Wikipedia in 2009: I copied the following from Wikipedia in 2009. The presentation of this has changed, but I like the original quote.
“Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalizing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors. Cognitive dissonance theory is one of the most influential and extensively studied theories in social psychology.
Dissonance normally occurs when a person perceives a logical inconsistency among his or her cognitions. This happens when one idea implies the opposite of another. For example, a belief in animal rights could be interpreted as inconsistent with eating meat or wearing fur. Noticing the contradiction would lead to dissonance, which could be experienced as anxiety, guilt, shame, anger, embarrassment, stress, and other negative emotional states. When people’s ideas are consistent with each other, they are in a state of harmony, or consonance.
A powerful cause of dissonance is an idea in conflict with a fundamental element of the self-concept, such as “I am a good person” or “I made the right decision.” The anxiety that comes with the possibility of having made a bad decision can lead to rationalization, the tendency to create additional reasons or justifications to support one’s choices. A person who just spent too much money on a new car might decide that the new vehicle is much less likely to break down than his or her old car. This belief may or may not be true, but it would likely reduce dissonance and make the person feel better. Dissonance can also lead to confirmation bias, the denial of disconfirming evidence, and other ego defense mechanisms”.
Let’s bring this into the church. I am quoting myself again in 2009.
One of my pastors is currently teaching a series on dissonance in our Christian life. He believes that dissonance is built into the Bible and that this tension, when viewed positively, can lead to a significant change in how we deal with our Christian walk. For example, the Bible says, “Be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect.” Yet, we know that we are sinners and have no hope of being perfect in and of ourselves.
Some, without thinking this through, will run themselves into the ground trying to be perfect. If left unchecked, this thought process can lead to despair. Others throw their hands up and walk away from the faith or just live a hedonistic lifestyle because they cannot possibly “measure up” so why try? Others close their eyes to their sin and develop what is known as a “holier than thou” lifestyle.
But, as my pastor cleverly pointed out, there is the fourth option. He proceeded to have an imaginary conversation with Satan that went something like this.
Satan: “Do you realize that you sinned when you did this thing and that thing today? What a loser.”
Pastor: “You don’t know the half of it. I did those things along with all of these other things. In fact, I probably sinned in ways that neither you nor I realize. So, get lost.”
Let’s get back to Mark Driscoll and his obvious issues.
Christianity Today wrote: Former Mars Hill Elders: Mark Driscoll Is Still ‘Unrepentant,’ Unfit to Pastor
Julie Roys also addressed this in ‘Unfit’: Former Mars Hill Elders Call for Mark Driscoll to Step Down from Pastorate
Both addressed a statement issued from 39 former elders, calling Driscoll to repent and reconcile.
The Roys Report said:
The Mars Hill board of elders investigated formal charges against Driscoll in 2014 and found evidence of bullying, intimidation, and spiritual abuse. But rather than submit to the elders’ plan for restoration, Driscoll resigned.
“Accordingly, we believe that Mark is presently unfit for serving the church in the office of pastor,” the letter goes on. “Knowing that we have no formal authority in this current matter, we hope that Mark will voluntarily resign his position immediately.
“We also hope that those who have influence over Mark would encourage him to do so,” the letter adds.
CT reported:
The leaders who signed onto the statement say they felt a responsibility to clarify the charges against him as a way to warn current members of his church and continue to call the well-known preacher to the kind of repentance and restoration process he was never able to complete under Mars Hill.
“This letter isn’t new information. It’s just information that hasn’t been widely spread,” said Ryan Welsh, who had been pastor of theology and leadership at Mars Hill. “Our hope is not just to point a finger. Our hope is to protect people and, by the Spirit’s work, that Mark would respond.”
The 40 signatories represent the majority of the pastors who served at the church between 2011 and 2014, when formal charges were raised against Driscoll. The list includes former executive pastor Sutton Turner and former teaching pastor Dave Bruskus, who made up the executive team alongside Driscoll.
Their statement also includes a never-before-released document from October 2014 that details how the church investigation, conducted by members of the elder board at the direction of Mars Hill’s board of overseers, found Driscoll to be quick-tempered, arrogant, and domineering.
I’ve been following Driscoll since 2009, back when I was one of the first blogs to speak out against him. I met with an elder from Mars Hill. I spoke with members of the church who contacted me. I watched as the inevitable happened. Mars Hill imploded and Driscoll, who apparently didn’t feel that the captain should go down with the ship, sold his fortress of a house and headed to Phoenix. Driscoll, beloved by John Piper (he loved his theology), suddenly did a 180 and met with Robert Morris of Gateway Church who believes that Paul was afflicted with demons. He holds to the regular exorcism of demons since 95% of churchgoers are afflicted by demons. Way to go to keep them coming in for more.
It was during this time that I came to my own conclusion that Driscoll was Reformed when it was useful and went down the charismatic/demon road when it is useful.
What have we learned about Driscoll and his new gig?
- He still appears to have an anger problem.
- He has his own Lord of the Rings thing with circles 1-10.10 means you are BFFs with Driscoll. 8 means you will be fired if you are a security guard. I bet most of the congregation ranks somewhere in 1-2 rings.
- Grace still supports Driscoll which is worrisome.
- 2 of his kids are married and on staff.
- There is no *membership* whatsoever in the church.
- I wonder who donates the money for Driscoll to buy buildings. Who owns them? Driscoll?
- Is Driscoll setting himself up just in case of another grand fail?
The curious problem of people who attend Mark Driscoll’s church:
What in the world is going on? Surely they knew enough to check out Driscoll before they attended for the first time? I bet most of them know how to Google? Do they investigate how to just buy the best tires online but don’t even read about their pastor? Surely they know how crazy Mars Hill was? Don’t they see it in Driscoll now? Let’s take a look at Week of June 12th Newsletter
It looks so friendly and folksy. Yet, two words that I would never think of when I think of Driscoll are “friendly” and “folksy.”
The first thing is the author of the book who is coming to visit.
Read the words on the cover of the book: Total Forgiveness. “When everything in you wants to remember the pain, God wants you to lay it all aside.” Is Driscoll going down the road that he doesn’t have to repent and reconcile? Probably. Is this what he’s teaching at the church?
“It’s all lies” and social media is to blame for spreading this stuff.
Who is writing this letter? I think it is Driscoll as we read the rest of this treatise.
The Trinity Church is grateful for and committed to honoring the constitutional freedoms and liberties that allow us to freely gather in worship and express our love and devotion to God. At the heart of our church is a commitment to telling the truth according to God’s Word. We recognize, however, that others are free to exercise these liberties and freedoms in other ways, including by disseminating falsehoods and misinformation through social media and other platforms.
Social media and the like want to “destroy the church.”
Driscoll is obviously getting nervous. Here is a warning to all those Trinity folks who are secretly reading this, beware. When Driscoll gets nervous, things are likely to get difficult at the church.
Grievously, these are extraordinary circumstances, as false and misleading comments on child safety have been circulating about the Trinity Church as part of an effort to “take down Trinity” and “destroy the church.” The safety and security of our attendees—especially the children—is a top priority for the Church. We have policies and procedures in place to protect children from all forms of abuse, and Church staff are diligent in ensuring that children are not placed at risk of being harmed. Some seeking to disparage and divide have claimed that Church staff did not follow these policies or keep pertinent records, but these statements are categorically false.
“It’s a vendetta.” He wrongly uses the family of a child who may have been inappropriately touched.
Driscoll is really getting off-balance here. No one, including myself, wish to be reminded of the pain and suffering that he causes. We are simply trying to prevent others from experiencing the same thing. There were lots of people under the bus in Seattle and I wager there will be lots of people in Phoenix under the bus.
I believe that even people who have worked with children can miss a predator in their midst. It happened in my former church. Note the assessment that there has never been one credible report of child abuse and that the report of one such incident was “false, groundless, and refuted.”
The Trinity Church has never received a credible report of child abuse by any staff member or Church attendee. This includes the demonstrably false allegation circulating online, which is based upon an admittedly unsubstantiated “feeling” of one former volunteer. This entirely false and groundless accusation has been refuted by numerous eyewitnesses, including the child’s parents. The child’s parents, who wish to remain anonymous for their family’s privacy and protection, gave the Church the following statement:
“We love the Trinity Church and its pastors and leadership. We have a background working with children and are constantly on the lookout for potentially dangerous people, especially those who might pose a danger to our children. We have never been concerned about the safety of our children at the Trinity Church. We are dismayed that those disseminating falsehoods have dragged our family into the middle of their vendetta against the Trinity Church.”
Now, the following is important. The “church” is looking at suing the people who have spread these falsehoods.
We are praying for all affected and grieve with the staff member and family at the epicenter of these harmful falsehoods. To mitigate further pain and damage, we have retained the law firm Fennemore to evaluate pursuing legal recourse against those disseminating these malicious and defamatory statements.
The people who attend this church have just been told that *the church* will go after anyone who is at *the epicenter* of spreading these falsehoods. I’d say that was rather intimidating.
Where does this leave the people and what does cognitive dissonance have to do with it? Red pill or Blue pill?
Many of us have been members of difficult churches and have dealt with problematic pastors. I was in a church in which legal threats were flung in my direction for simply trying to get to the truth. This was very hard for me. I considered myself smart and found out that I had no idea what was going on in my church. It took me over. two years to leave.
I get it. You found yourself in a good situation. You’ve made lots of friends. I bet the Driscoll’s are nice to you as they try to stop the flow out the back door. My guess is that you are only a “3” in reality. At some point, you have to wake up and decide which pill you want to take.
The last Sunday school class my husband and I taught was based on the famous scene in The Matrix in which Keanu Reeves is offered two pills. I’ll let a better writer than me discuss it. The Matrix’s Red Pill or Blue Pill—Which Is Better?
SOMETIMES EXISTING ON the internet can feel like being trapped in that dark room with Morpheus, the one where he holds out his hands to Neo and offers up either a pill of knowledge or a pill of blissful ignorance. Red pill or blue pill; know your enemy or live in peace; click or don’t click. Of all the ideas and images The Matrix sent spiraling into American culture—computer simulation paranoia, black leather trench coats, falling green code, spoons that don’t really exist—none has become so entrenched, or so contentious, as this one.
Of the two options, the red pill is more often discussed (it is Neo’s choice, after all). Yet as the world grows more polarized and less courteous, that blue pill is starting to look mighty swallowable. After all, life is hard, bad news is everywhere, and maybe, just maybe, ignorance is bliss
In the end, I guess it is up to the attendees. Do they wish to live in blissful ignorance or have a free mind? For me, it had to be the red pill. However, I get blissful ignorance. In this case and with this church, I think the word “blissful” is not one that will be used by most people to describe this church in the very near future.
Life is SO much easier when someone else tells me what to think, what to do, and what to believe. And the icing on the cake is that it is “God’s Will!”
Stupid people for giving Driscoll a second chance and a clean slate just so he can use and abuse a whole new group of people.
We knew he would. He wants a mountain of bodies behind his bus. He said so, himself.
I wish we could find the magic button the cuts off his financial support so that his Narcissistic Personality Disorder will no longer have free reign to destroy lives in the name of God.
Your post, Dee, is prescient. Here are quotes from Kyle J. Howard who is now doing youtube vids in response to the CT coverage of what was Driscoll’s tenure at Mars Hill. So good to have people like you, Dee, and Kyle J. Howard, with platforms using them for awareness. We have freedom of religion, which enables religious public leaders in general. We also have freedom of speech, which means we don’t have to be the blue pill people.
Kyle J. Howard @KyleJamesHoward re: Mark Driscoll’s legacy. Quotes I find helpful. Sharing is caring.
“2. Given all the evidence surrounding Mark Driscoll & the rape culture he cultivated (will speak more on), there’s no reason it should be assumed he truly cared about women as he gave them financial, spiritual, or emotional support VS he was grooming them.”
“3. Abusive men/predators do not only groom their ‘targets’ for their own personal perverted indulgences, they also can groom targets for others. Some actually prefer grooming targets for others rather than themselves. Mark used his spiritual power to groom women for ‘his’ men.”
“(4) In both this episode & the one before it, there was this subtle idea presented that Mark was a sincere guy who cared for people but simply went too far & was unhealthy. This has been odd to me as from my perspective (trauma informed counselor), all evidence points contrary.”
“(5) Mark Driscoll used his spiritual authority & power to subjugate women into a posture of submission whereby they would be conditioned to accept & even rejoice in being raped. His Elders endorsed this, & many evangelical leaders & organizations affirmed him in it as well.”
“(6) B/c Mark Driscoll claimed to be complementarian & reformed; various Christian influencers platformed him b/c they valued the power & influence of their ideological camp over the bodies & souls & women & the souls of men. Full stop, point blank, Hundred points symbol. Demonic Evil was overlooked”
“(7) I can’t stress how important it is that we use undiluted language when we identify abusive & toxic realities. Using terms & categories, that are shocking but true, both validates the trauma of victims & serves the need of true biblical repentance. We must call it what it is.”
And this is precisely why Driscoll has been, and is so successful in the Jeezus Bizz.
He caters to human frailty and makes good bank off of it.
Like a barker on a carnival midway he gets people to try their hand at ring toss or knock over the milk bottles (so to speak), never realizing that the game is rigged from the get go.
I wonder when he’ll pull up tent stakes again and look for pay-dirt elsewhere.
Gotta’ deal with the Blue Pill that Dee is writing about.
BTW, I LOVE your blog! You’ve got all the links lined up, with your own commentary. I’ll have more time tomorrow to read carefully. THX! Awareness helps deal with that Blue Pill.
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com
And here is another review of MD from a one-time admirer
https://theweeflea.com/2021/07/17/mark-driscoll-mars-hill-and-the-lessons-still-being-learned-ct/
From the former elders’ statement (after a lengthy opening “statement” within the statement): We grieve the harm that has come to The Trinity Church as well as the damage to the reputation of Jesus among unbelievers through Mark’s words and actions.
And, once again, the (frequently weaponized) “damage to the reputation of Jesus” card gets played….apparently this time that damage will only happen among unbelievers. And, of course, the mention of damage done to the reputation of Jesus isn’t mentioned until AFTER the harm done to The Trinity Church.
(Summarizing: To me, the elders sound like sanctimonious hypocrites, annoyed Mark Driscoll eluded their past attempts at the usual “church restoration” process.)
It will be interesting to see how the “Constitutional liberties” meme works out later in the year as the Delta variant becomes more prevalent.
This site may be useful (I have doubts about how complete the data is, since many public health authorities may not be testing for or tracking low-symptom breakthrough cases among the vaccinated; such cases may be capable of spreading the virus, so their prevalence is relevant to the risk of contracting the virus):
https://urbanobservatory.maps.arcgis.com/apps/MapSeries/index.html?appid=ad46e587a9134fcdb43ff54c16f8c39b
Per this link, current active case prevalence in Maricopa county is estimated to be 3.1 per 1000 population. So every megachurch meeting is a potential spreading or superspreading event. Perhaps best to let the worship band do all the vocalization.
Why Do People Attend Mark Driscoll’s Church?
Same reason people are still discussing him online.
He feeds on attention… hand him an empty plate.
I’m curious about what the next waypoint on the theological journey might be. Is it conceivable that at some point “Word of Faith” might become useful? I have the impression that teaching has a large and lucrative audience.
“Let’s take a look at Week of June 12th Newsletter” …
“We had a great kickoff to our Summer Date Nights on Wednesday night, and we’ll be doing it again next week! Whether you’re married, engaged, dating, or even single, we hope you’ll join us for a special series this summer. Pastor Mark and Grace will be going through Song of Songs almost every Wednesday this summer and you won’t want to miss it!”
Whew! If it’s anything like his book “Real Marriage”, those folks are in for pornographic teaching from the potty-mouth of Seattle!
“Is Driscoll going down the road that he doesn’t have to repent and reconcile?” (Dee)
Does anyone remember a demonstration of sackcloth and ashes from Driscoll after his fall from Mars Hill/Acts 29 before he launched his unrepentant comeback in Phoenix?
“When Driscoll gets nervous, things are likely to get difficult at the church.” (Dee)
Whew! Driscoll can get ugly when he’s squeezed. “Will the real Mark Driscoll please stand up” … squeeze him and you will find out.
“Why Do People Attend Mark Driscoll’s Church?”
He’s entertaining! The Great God Entertainment sits on the throne in much of the American church. Millions of churchgoers can’t live without amusement … and Driscoll can get downright amusing! Driscoll was so amusing when he was a darling of New Calvinism, that thousands of Driscollites combed their hair like him and parroted his sermons … his style came in the face of everything that was “traditional” about doing church … his method and message were radical and the young reformers loved it! The curious, spiritually immature and irreverent love preachers like Driscoll. Why follow Jesus when you have Driscoll?! He’s so entertaining!
Do you recall also this discussion of Rev Robertson’s review of MD back in the last days of Mars Hill? http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/08/26/a-response-to-david-robertsons-critque-of-tww/
Therein, lies the success of Driscoll.
“For the time is coming when men will not tolerate wholesome teaching. They will want something to tickle their own fancies, and they will collect teachers who will pander to their own desires.” (2 Timothy 4:3 Phillips)
Just like the Taliban and ISIL:
“IN’SHAL’LAH!”
Yes, positive or negative – it makes no difference. Whenever you drop his name, it’s like saying “Sic ’em!” to a dog. Classical narcissistic behavior.
HE’S THE LATEST REALITY SHOW!
ALL THAT’S MISSING ARE GUEST APPEARANCES BY KIM KARDASHIAN AND HONEY BOO-BOO!
Why should you repent when You Can Do No Wrong?
“Missionary Man, he got GAWD on his side…”
— The Eurythmics
DrisColl is a psychopath and portrays himself as an Alpha dog.
This attracts other wannabe alphas.
I only feel sorry for the families who get dragged into this clown show.
It’s an educated guess, based on Thumma’s book “The Other 80 Percent”, that 80 percent of people at The Trinity Church are spectators that attend for the show and are neither aware of nor care about Driscoll’s character or behavior. Shocking for WW readers but I think it’s the reality – they simply don’t care. Most churchgoers I talk to about religious abuse don’t have any experience with it and don’t care. It’s like I’m speaking a foreign language that sounds boring. In a way, that’s kind of great – they haven’t been touched by it.
Of the 20 percent that are involved at TTC, it’s also a guess that many are seeking exactly what MD offers: an authoritarian who will “lead” them. Authoritarianism is appealing, as Anne Applebaum points out in “Twilight of Democracy.” It’s simple and promises safety. MD will find a core team who remains loyal to him and continue on.
I’m also guessing he’s pathologically narcissistic. The illness might progress to the point he alienates almost everybody, but it’s amazing how there always seems to be a group that will stick with a person like MD.
I’m not much of a betting man, but I’d wager that he’s preached on I Corinthians 6 to his congregation time and time again about how they ‘shouldn’t take a brother to court’. Yet, the first trick out of his bag is to threaten to sue anyone spreading ‘false information’ about his church. It’s the old, “good for thee but not for me” kind of thing.
Anyone attending that church needs to RUN! Run and don’t look back. He’s like Professor Harold Hill, slick enough to slip out of town the minute they catch on…and then do it all over again where he can find another town full of all-day-suckers!
The Apostle Paul well-warned us of the likes of Driscoll in II Timothy 3, so be on guard!
Just a thought, as I don’t remember actually listening to much (if any) of Mark Driscoll’s stuff: Maybe some of the people who listen to Mark Driscoll don’t really notice his potty mouth because some kinds of language, references, etc,, have become quite prevalent.
As an example of prevalence: Just recently (and in Canada), I watched a news story on TV with a not-prominent-person who is running for a not-big-time political office being interviewed. Part way into the interview, the person being interviewed said a word that the TV station bleeped out….the person being interviewed then looked down at their notes and continued speaking. It was almost as if the person being interviewed had scripted the word that was bleeped out. And I can guarantee there will be people who vote for this person….and unfortunately, the person who was being interviewed also fits the profile of a white supremacist.
Pastor Robertson thinks it’s evident Mark wasn’t a fraud when he started out. Likely so, but it’s also evident from his own testimony Mark was in it for a career from the get go.
“ I began reading such classics as Augustine and Aquinas, and read through the New Testament in less than two weeks from the Bible my girlfriend Grace gave me as a high school graduation present . Aware of what God was orchestrating, but still unyielding in my heart, I had one Christian friend who asked me over a burger one late night what I was planning on doing for my career. I told him that God was going to make me a Christian and send me out to plant churches like I had read about Paul. He laughed, unsure if I was mocking him, being serious, or trying to discourage him from giving me any more goofy tracts. Within a month, my lingering struggles with the Gospel disappeared and I began teaching a Bible study…”
During the last days of Mark’s Hill we had a discussion of Pastor Roberson’s review of MD back then.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/08/26/a-response-to-david-robertsons-critque-of-tww/
Who is or who are the “We” in those newsletters produced by The Trinity Church?
There is a segment of churchgoers in America who prefer pastors who walk and talk no differently than them … it makes them feel better about themselves. They like camping out where there is no challenge to live more moral, pure and holy lives. It’s created a whole new market segment for ministers like macho-man, potty-mouth Driscoll.
RE: Why do many people still follow Driscoll?
An answer about at least some followers: Idolatry
From Rebecca Davis at Here’s the Joy blog —
” Christians can fall prey to various kinds of idolatry. But there’s one I believe urgently needs to be discussed, one that I haven’t heard preached from the platforms of popular speakers.
And that is idolatry of popular speakers.
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. (2 Timothy 4:3-4)
This refers not only to the smiling Joel Osteens of the world who promise you that all is well no matter what. It also refers to preachers who lay heavy burdens on your shoulders, because you may feel like heavy burdens are exactly what you need to feel like a Christian. This is what may “suit your own passions.” ”
https://heresthejoy.com/2021/07/when-does-sin-become-idolatry-a-new-perspective-on-an-old-question/
Could be. I’m not sure I think many people are even that sophisticated.
I visited a large local church last year. I didn’t realize it when I went, but the services are 2 hours, with an hour-long sermon. Problem was, the pastor only had 20 minutes of content. And it was not very deep to begin with. In the last 20 minutes, he pretty much just kept repeating the same things over and over again without really saying them in a different way. It was frankly a terrible sermon.
As we were walking out, the group behind me was talking animatedly about how good the sermon was. I was utterly baffled.
… and flee to Texas to be “restored” by Robert Morris … then launch another new & improved ministry somewhere else
Ava Aaronson,
Thank you for you comments on this and the news of Kyle Howard’s Youtube post. I have watched it and it is good, just as you said.
Here is a link to it for others if they have not seen it yet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNK5O3K4jJU
Actors would have no stage if it weren’t for an audience willing to buy tickets to the show.
Dee should add “aka Cassandra” to her name because she seems to be afflicted with the same curse: telling true prophesies that no one believes (TWW’rs don’t count).
Yes, the lure of the “Inner Ring” … the prominence and power of being a chosen yes-man … where you have an open mind about bad-boy behavior by your leader until your brain falls out.
Preachers who swim in shallow water can find plenty of American churchgoers who will swim there with him. It’s not surprising that some church folks leave a sermon ranting “Wow, Daddy, Wow!” while others say “Whaaaattttt?!”
I wonder what their standard of comparison was.
I suspect that there can develop that might be thought of as a kind of “co-dependent” relationship between a preacher and his communication style and his audience and its response to him.
Remember Art Azurdia and his (to many of us) exaggerated (and distracting) gestural habits (or perhaps they are affectations)? Some of his enthusiasts seemed to find his style to be really compelling, even “world class”. Perhaps it’s possible to acquire a taste for a particular preaching style, and after having acquired the taste, to judge all preaching in terms of that.
—
This is why I always make my wake-up coffee a generic brand of instant. It’s truly awful (but effective for its principal purpose), but whenever someone shows me the hospitality of a cup of just-brewed real coffee, I am genuinely delighted and appreciative.
He hired a white shoe (aka EXPENSIVE) law firm over in Phoenix to send cease and desist letters (three pages!) to two former TTC volunteer security guys. They considered it, took legal advice and still went on Julie Roys’ podcast. And yeah, the letter was allegedly all about alleged child grooming, which is a subject very near to the heart of our blog mistress.
I could say a lot more but I’m tired from being on call and other people have said what I would say but better.
Good thread! Some random thoughts of my own regarding why stay in some churches:
We are in a pandemic, and in my area we are completely underwater, with the hospital full, the regional hospitals trying to find places to send people, and covid surging. Big time surging. And yet the churches are running full tilt, not requiring vaccines nor masks to attend, just chiding the cautious as not trusting in God. They are complaining about it being difficult to get people to staff VBS, to attend church, ramping up concerts and pushing those several day fill in the blank women’s Bible study conferences.
I thought we would “know they are Christians by their love.” Where is the love in knowingly exposing people to a plague that is killing people, sickening others, etc.? We have the technology and ability to do church in innovative ways, such as parking lot church, online small group Bible studies, phone trees to make sure everyone is still in contact with the rest of us and is ok, not needing anything. We have scads of opportunities to reach out and actually help our many people who do not have access to tech that would let them shop curbside, get vaxxed people helping some who need help getting to medical and social service and addiction appts, or find help with eviction moratoriums running out. We could do this. We could be the church.
Instead if we don’t worship at the idol of the pulpit (or altar) inside a building we are “faithless” and should be shunned or denigrated.
Revival starts with a costly cleansing of the church, not the lost, so maybe we should all duck and cover?
I agree with ^That, Max, and I can see how what I wrote in my comment might have conveyed what you wrote (about this segment of churchgoers)….and I know what I’m about to write is neither new nor original.
I think the idea I was trying to convey is where a person (or group of people) is at in their life at a given time. Not necessarily (as you often – and I agree with – write), and I am paraphrasing: They don’t know they are deceived because they are deceived. And then there is the (sometimes unknown and / or unrecognized) need to belong. And some of this can lead a person (or group of people) into (or into creating) a cult.
Even ^That explanation isn’t totally what I meant. And any personal example I can think to write risks – to some degree, anyway – my safety. In many of the ways of life, I am (and I don’t write this as a pity-party, nor as if others haven’t learned in a similar fashion), self-taught and / or learned through (often negative) personal experience. There were no loving people in my life….whether to guide me, to give advice, etc.. And as I write this comment, I think I what I was considering (and conveying poorly) in my earlier comment was the idea that maybe – at some earlier point in my life – I might have been (even if only for a short time) a person like those who attend a place like Mark Driscoll’s The Trinity Church….and maybe I would have actually attended The Trinity Church….and I wouldn’t have known any better.
Maybe all my rambling is merely an attempt to say that perhaps I can empathize with some of those who attend The Trinity Church….
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Actions speak louder than words. Thankful for you.
That’s one toxic & effective Blue Pill that you’ve noted. Front Row.
Another Blue Pill is the yearning to be in the Inner Circle. Row 2, eyes trained on the Front Row as wannabes will do.
Finally, there are the Just-Along-For-The-Ride “Christians”, filling up the rest of the room, every seat with full view of the Stage. Also frequenting Potlucks & Superbowl Parties during the week.
The Blue Pill drill in 3 Acts.
Thanks, Dee, Julie Roys, Kyle James Howard, et al, for covering this saga.
Thanks, TWW readers & commenters. Light shines in the darkness & the darkness doesn’t get it. We (God’s precious beloveds) can be so much better than what this convoluted “ministry” presents.
On to the next level of edging to Scientology, separating families, one of Sci-toe’s old tricks, as exposed in another article by Julie Roys. [Sci-toe = $$$-grifting scheme. Wonder if it’s what these ministry leaders have in mind in adopting Sci-toe practices. Elron H. was clear of his motives in Sci-toe.]
https://julieroys.com/driscoll-demand-loyalty-divides-daughter-in-laws-family/?mc_cid=c774c045c0&mc_eid=785f4029ac
That’s some Blue Pill: getting adults that should know better to reject their loving families.
Watch any documentary on Keith Raniere of Nixim fame and substitute Driscoll’s name for Raniere’s and you will know everything you need to know about him.
Ava Aaronson,
You’ve just described every SBC New Calvinist church in my area. Populated by: lead pastor, associate (wannabe-lead) pastor(s), yes-men elders in the Inner Circle, elder candidates in waiting paying their dues, gullible pew-sitters financing the mess. Coming to a church near you (as soon as they take one over)!
I understand what you are saying, Researcher, and I too empathize with those who are drawn to certain ministers and ministries hoping they can find a place to fit. This makes such church leaders even more sinful when they use them rather than love them. Negative personal experience can be a great teacher if we learn from it. Many Wartburgers have walked that path.
C.S. Lewis dealt with this in That Hideous Strength,the third book in his trilogy.
This five-minute clip of Driscoll saying “I see things” should have been a red flag. Interestingly, he calls his “gift” discernment, not prophecy or knowledge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVyFyauE4ig
Yes, near us, too.
3 Blue Pill varieties (maybe more) propping up the guru guy that the Blue Pill-ers see on the Staged Big Screen while the actual little guru fella’ makes sure he stays hidden behind a curtain of NDAs.
Ted,
Thx, Ted, I’ll check it out, tho’ not a major fan of CSL (mediocre fan). He’s not one of the 5 guys I sleep with…(reading before lights out. And yes, I sleep with girl books, too).
My particular and peculiar interest is the nexus of linguistics and cognition. This sentence set off all my alarms:
“we believe that Mark is presently unfit for serving the church in the office of pastor”
“The church?” And Mars Hill arrogates to God’s voice in this? I would say there a lot dark on both sides of the spectrum. What is lacking is humility from any of these parties.
Driscoll ‘is’ a red flag!
d4v1d,
“This sentence set off all my alarms:
“we believe that Mark is presently unfit for serving the church in the office of pastor”
“The church?” And Mars Hill arrogates to God’s voice in this? …What is lacking is humility from any of these parties.”
++++++++++++++++++++++
yeah… i really want to know why it wasn’t enough when i myself said, “mark driscoll is a d|psh|t”.
Well, I mean, these were people that went to his church in the first place. It’s not like Driscoll was ever known to hide his personality or his beliefs. I’m not even sure he’s smart enough for that…
As well as his essay “The Lure of The Inner Ring”.
How much dagger-and-poison behind the scenes to elder candidates to elder and associate pastor to The Iron Throne?
(In Frank Herbert’s Dune, the Gentleman’s Weapon was a poison-tipped stiletto. What does that tell you?)
Time to pad away.
And padding away is never a good sign.
Heavily padding usually does NOT work out.
Like when Peter Jackson had to stretch his adaptation of The Hobbit from two movies to three.
Or when S.M.Stirling ran out of story two books into a contracted trilogy. Padded the last book with one long climactic battle cribbed scene-by-scene from the movie Zulu.
And a third of the Didache (from roughly 100 AD) is all about how to recognize a con man in the pulpit.
My deliverance ministry is making coffee for my wife every morning (even though I am more of a tea drinker in the morning). I think I do it more for me than for her because it pains me to watch her drink instant coffee.
Coffee ministry. Lovely. Right on the home front, back at the ranch. Not rocket science but seems wonderful.
Idk if this qualifies for “biblical manhood” but “biblical manhood” doesn’t seem all that biblical.
However, @MargMowczko does wonderful biblical scholarship. Her tag:
“Grateful for the new life Jesus offers to every person on the planet. Advocate for mutuality and unity between women and men in ministry and in marriage.”
Interesting how some homeboys + theologies don’t recognize her scholarship.
He didn’t have to. He could have just made a movie of the book! Admittedly, that would have required fast-forward through much hiking, especially in the dark, but he could have made a movie of the book.
I enjoyed the first Hobbit movie because of the Dwarves. I got drunk with those guys in the San Antonio in the mid-80s.
Biblical manhood is making coffee because the Bible says he brews. I am secretly trying to turn her into a coffee snob by grinding the beans just before I brew them. But I fear I have not succeeded yet because she will still drink instant with no indication of disgust. Oh well, I try. I am consoled by the fact that she prefers mine over instant.
Ava Aaronson,
“biblical manhood”
+++++++++++++++++++
I can make a stronger case for biblical stamp collecting, drawing heavily from Paul.
Elastigirl,
LOL. Nice.
Stamp collecting, polishing rocks, & model airplanes. Biblically, of course.
Like to hear that sermon. See that theology. Makes about as much sense as the manhood deal.
Nothing quite like the aroma of fresh coffee wafting through the morning mood.
As always, you are sharp witted and a skilled wielder of words.
I’d pay money to see you up against one of those neo-cal nincompoops in a debate.
Muff Potter,
We’ll, shucks, muff.
Your empathy moves you to concrete expressions of mercy, which minister both to your wife and to you.
Oh but, Sister Linda, what will we do for money if we can’t pass the offering plate?! Well, they could trust God, I suppose.
“His mind is a morbid jumble of disputation and argument, things which lead to nothing but jealousy, quarrelling, insults and malicious innuendoes — continual wrangling, in fact, among men of warped minds who have lost their real hold on the truth but hope to make some profit out of the Christian religion.” (1 Timothy 6:5 Phillips)
Literally in the last 24 hours I experienced this in conversation with an old believer friend who wants to meet for dinner and conversation (in a local favorite dining establishment that is always crowded) and who refuses to mask.
I think that she doesn’t understand that masking is as much about “protecting others in case you are have a low-symptom infection and might infect others” as it is about “protecting yourself from other infected people.” It’s an expression of “love of neighbor”. I would like to think that this pandemic is not revealing that “the love of many [has grown] cold,” but I’m not confident of that.
I think that the national public health authorities have done a dismal job of communicating, and my friend’s beliefs about the implications of her vaccination status for mask wearing are to a significant degree a consequence of that. But I think there’s also a religious element, which perhaps does not control her thinking, but can be used to justify it. CDC has said “masks optional for the vaccinated” (though they appear to be walking that back in the face of the Delta variant) and my friend prefers to not mask. Then, “if I die, I’ll be with the Lord, which is better by far” provides a spiritual justification for what one prefers to do anyway.
This looks to me like a plain case of “putting YHWH to the test”
I think that a lot of people are feeling holy about choices that endanger others and that are, in practical effect, an expression of hatred of neighbor rather than love.
Max–the few churches, mostly liberal ones, that are doing this right in the pandemic set up online giving very early and their web pages are thanking their people and others in the community for a level of generosity that exceeds what they were enjoying pre pandemic.
Same with the one fundy that is holding indoor services now but discouraging the unvaxxed from attending. They put the service on the radio and urge everyone that hasn’t been vaxxed or has other health concerns putting them at high risk to “attend church with us this morning by the blessing of the radio.”
Personally I think it goes more deeply than just the $$. I am beginning to think it is a level of narcissism that goes farther than NPD. These old boys seem to NEED people “worshipping” them, aka in church looking up at them for hours on end. The serpent is in the church, and where most folks least expect to see him. The pulpit and worship team.
Ken–an the first baseball game was in Genesis 1. In the Big Inning God…
Good one Max.
The irony and spoof level is both sad and funny.
In (a tiny, itsy bitsy, teeny weeny) defense of Driscoll, he’s at least not physically having his chief female disciples recruit other women and then brand them with his initials. That said, he is mentally and emotionally branding him with his brand of toxic beliefs regarding the relationships between men and women, within families, and between people in the church and outsiders who may (like me) be standing out on the sidewalk. One might argue that what Driscoll is doing is worse than what Raineire did.
Along with that, I want to point people to what Kyle Howard had to say the other day after the most recent episode of Rise and Fall of Mars Hill dropped:
youtube.com/watch?v=WNK5O3K4jJU
Howard is blunt–he says that Driscoll was grooming women for whatever their husbands wanted to do to/with them. Basically Driscoll was/is? grooming women to ignore the idea of consent in marital sex and basically be their husbands’ Real Dolls. I’d remind everyone that non-consensual marital sex is a crime in all 50 states. But Driscoll is hardly the only preacher out there to talk like this.
The website Jezebel published a long article about purity culture and sex yesterday, including quotes from Sheila Gregoire and a number of women who experienced physical and mental sexual problems as a result of purity culture and preaching about not withholding sex.
https://jezebel.com/i-didnt-want-to-deny-my-husband-his-martial-rights-for-1847361950
The title of the article is “‘I Didn’t Want to Deny My Husband His Marital Rights’: For Many Evangelical Women, Sex Comes With Pain and Anxiety”.
Just as a side note, I’m glad that Raineire didn’t actually set up a religion like L. Ron Hubbard did. Perhaps that was his mistake. It would have been more difficult to have gone after him had he cloaked his “Executive Success Program” in a veneer of religion.
Dave A A,
Yes. It’s a strange one.
That is a great book, more relevant today than ever IMHO.
Nice spin 🙂 The problem is she can drink instant coffee with no pain. There are so many things we learn about our spouses AFTER we get married.
“she and her husband decided to leave Seattle and go wherever the Driscolls went.”
https://julieroys.com/driscoll-demand-loyalty-divides-daughter-in-laws-family/
This family moved to Phoenix with the Driscolls, the father still commuting to his work in Seattle during the week.
—————-
The relationships people have with these NPD pastors seems similar to what we see on Dateline weekly. Beware building relationship & community with an NPD. It’s a con, it’s toxic, destructive, sometimes deadly. An NPD will love-bomb the Common Sense & Reasoning out of a person from the get-go until all is lost & it’s too late. The Inner Circle is entrapment.
The moment we begin our spiritual journey with God as our Father, Jesus as our Savior, and the Holy Spirit as our Guide, we are in the Inner Circle. Maintaining this Inner Circle with God Himself (not a pastor) is our spiritual trek to lead us to the rest of our abundant life. (We can see a pastor but our relationship with God is spiritual so it requires faith, which is a stretch at times. Israel wanted a king they could see.)
Personally, I rely a great deal on Scripture to keep out of trouble & seek closeness with God in this world – my own reading, never to tell others what to do, but strictly for self-awareness.
A NXIVM reference!
Now that Cult’s gotten a lot of coverage on YouTube. When a Cult Leader brands his women with his (owner’s) initials, the word really gets around. And I think he had them branded near their genitalia – Really? Like he could get more obvious?
“Biblical Manhood – Just Like NXIVM, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
A Lifetime Pilgrimage to always be with her Real LORD and God?
Such vivid memories as a kid, figured out later what was really coming down.
Our NPD pastor was constantly drumming up entertaining events beyond Sunday morning, to get everyone to “church”. After whatever was on stage reeled in one’s emotions while dumbing one’s brain, the plate was passed to empty one’s pockets.
Clear childhood memory. Every week. The pastor’s eyes sparkled, as he rubbed his palms together, shifting his feet, while calling for the offering plate to be passed, followed by a commanding prayer.
What happened to the money? A child doesn’t see that.
Nowadays, giving has switched to online transactions. So the con must adjust.
There’s a trajectory. Question: Where is a Dear Leader on the spectrum at any point in time? How far are they will to go, and does it ever stop? The underlying overreach is ultimately the trifecta of power, $$$, vice: all insatiables.
Those who moved with Driscoll from Seattle to Phoenix … there were those who moved to Albany, New York to be with Raniere. IMHO, relocation to follow a spiritual leader is a major life commitment.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Or a Groupie following her Rock Star wherever he might go?
Harley Quinn following her Joker?
Jesus would have none of it. Yes, he called a few disciples that he personally mentored to accompany him while NOT collecting $$$ from them (nothing glamorous, bare bones needs met, no yacht nor manse nor fancy sneakers, possible martyrdom). Most often, Jesus sent people back to their day-to-day lives in their work and with their families.
The current Dear Leaders have nothing in common with Jesus.
Idolatry.
IMHO, we struggle with the spirituality of our relationship with God. We look for a king, that we can see, even if from a distance, but with our physical eyes. With maturity in our walk with God, our spiritual vision becomes more astute, with less need for a visible Dear Leader king.
Max,
what he has disclosed about his wife publicly is the reddest light of all – how could someone who loves his wife put her under the bus like that? And she seems to adore him and seems to be a good mother. (?)
Misogyny on steroids. His words about Grace have exposed his own pitiable condition. The term ‘jerk’ comes to mind.
On behalf of the woman (God bless her) who generously shares her story with Julie Roys ( https://julieroys.com/driscoll-demand-loyalty-divides-daughter-in-laws-family/ ), she notes that part of the reason for leaving Seattle to relocate to Phoenix with Driscoll was that there were some issues in her extended family in Seattle. She wanted her own little family to have a “fresh start”.
Perhaps the people that follow these Dear Leaders are looking for close relationships that their biological families do not offer. Looking for love.
Lots of families have problems. That said, beware of snuggling up to anything a Dear Leader offers. Dear Leaders & their communities may present far worse problems.
Many of us have learned a lot from the school of hard knocks.
I belonged to a church back in the 80s that was pastored by a Narcissist, though I didn’t know to label him than until only a few years ago.
But that Narcissist wasn’t as smart, slick, or smooth as Driscoll.
It was from that experience that I engaged the Driscollites that I encountered on-line back in the days of Mars Hill. But those Driscoll mini-mes were convinced that I was just a tightly wound prude that was jealous of how popular, smart, and well-read Driscoll was.
There was no convincing them otherwise.
And what will we do for community if we opt out of Dear Leader & his network?
Yesterday I read a commenter that said they’d been alone without loving human relationships for so much. too much, of their life.
(Regarding biological family of origin – if it’s not loving, that’s a huge factor, major deficit, for a person. Truly. And not their fault. So a person becomes a Christian, follows Jesus, and is looking for new and improved human relationships. This can be a long haul journey.)
Imagine some who get snagged by a Dear Leader + community are on the long haul trek, earnestly looking for a loving community in their vicinity.
Yet, one must beware & be aware. Sometimes going it alone with God, even for a long haul, is far better, much less complicated & safer than what a Dear Leader et al have to offer. If it’s too good to be true, it probably isn’t true.
So, as you stated, Max, we can “trust God, I suppose”. When God is all you’ve got, He is all you need. God’s love is never late.
Yes. Which makes ministers and ministries who use such people, rather than loving them, that more sinful. “Love” is not the first word that pops to mind when describing a NeoCal leader … “arrogance” is. When previous relationships have failed them, these poor folks become even more confused and disillusioned when they learn who Dear Leader really is. Only those in the “Inner Circle” experience some sort of relationship with Dear Leader; pew-sitters never do.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
I read the linked article.
I didn’t think it was possible to have that much angst over sex.
But then again, given the ethos of fundagelical culture, it’s no surprise that they make way more of it (sex) than it actually is.
Not so sure everyone does need a king. Humans are social animals and people will gravitate towards someone who appears to know what they are talking about.
But do we “need” a king? That’s a message from a long gone culture filtered through the modern church’s culture of compliance.
The people of the Bible couldn’t fathom the concept of constitutional democracy.
Heck, we struggle with it now.
Full disclosure, I’m an avowed socialist.
For me, the disagreeableness of instant coffee as wakeup beverage is part of its therapeutic effect. One can’t stay drowsy with that taste in one’s mouth!
Before I leave TWW to go watch Olympic coverage, I’m still left with Dee’s opening question:
Why do people attend Mark Driscoll’s church?
Approach with appropriate distance, to something/someone good, can work well.
Good point. And it also increases the chances that it will be the worst thing to happen to you all day.
Yup. Pastors in our (now former) church sat around twiddling their thumbs or acting like pouting toddlers when told they couldn’t hold in-person gatherings. Granted, they streamed Sunday services (which was nothing new), but that was it. Nothing for elementary students or middle and high schoolers. Only one thing for adults, at a time that was only convenient for retired people and homeschooling mothers.
It was up to the lay folks who organized Zoom Bible studies, socially distanced coffee at the park, mailings of stickers and coloring pages to the preschoolers and families going through particular trials… THAT’S where I saw the love of Jesus on display last summer. Disappointingly, not at all from the paid pastoral staff.
Oh. Except that one time the senior pastor bragged from the pulpit that the pastors were all calling everyone in the church to check in with them. Only to find out later that they foisted much of it off on lower-level staff, and just a quick text message, at that.
Unfortunately a poser can do the same thing. Throw in the threat to your soul or worse, exclusion from your social group, or a combination of both, that can work also, just not in your favor.
God is a force multiplier for these groups. They don’t believe in “enlightened monarchy”.
Yes, authoritatians have easy answers to complex questions – unfortunately, all of these answers are wrong.
elastigirl,
You asked me in another post what concerns I had about GRACE. I have replied to that question. See my reply here:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2021/07/21/the-day-god-didnt-kiss-bethlehem-baptist-church-4-pastors-have-resigned-including-the-lead-pastor-and-theres-even-more/comment-page-1/?unapproved=450023&moderation-hash=32ae395e8058423a3858fc40d002ad80#comment-450023
This was in my daily news “feed”:
https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/562654
There’s evidence that soybean oil consumption could modulate brain function. In particular:
“The team determined a number of genes in mice fed soybean oil were not functioning correctly. One such gene produces the “love” hormone, oxytocin. In soybean oil-fed mice, levels of oxytocin in the hypothalamus went down.”
It never occurred to me that there might be significant feedback effects of “Big Ag” on interpersonal relations and larger social structures.
Perhaps peoples’ preferences in style of “church” could be affected?
If we are what we eat, Americans are soybeans. Soybean oil is a key ingredient in most processed foods.
Perhaps the New Calvinists eat way too much processed food, since they as a group particularly have a problem loving others as they ought.
Driscoll has uttered things about the relationship with his wife that should never be in a pastor’s vocabulary. The more he did it, the more the young reformers loved the potty mouth from Seattle.
More than 90% of soybeans grown in the U.S. are genetically engineered. Most processed food on store shelves contain soybean oil … read the labels. Are genetically modified foods safe for humans? Food scientists say they are. Mice may tell a different story.
Barbara Roberts,
Thank you, Barbara, for taking the time to put all those thoughts together. I’m very sorry for the ‘whitewash’ situation you describe in Australia.
All the things you describe are more than I can respond to — i’m too far removed from the situation and there’s too much i’m not privy to. although my response is not what matters, but rather the fact that you stated your views for the record here.
but I feel your disappointment and I know it’s rotten to experience.
Had to go to you comment to see what GRACE you were talking about. Thought for a moment you meant Grace Driscoll due to the topic of this blog and comments. Cool response to a different GRACE bth.
Jerk is not a strong enough word. But it is possibly the best word for a family friendly comment.
Yes, Driscoll’s misuse and abuse of Grace is epic.
Since we ARE talking about Grace DRISCOLL here, I’d like to link to an old but well visited guest post on my old, mostly inactive blog. An open letter to Grace Driscoll written by a friend back in 2012.
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2012/01/dear-grace-driscoll.html
“You could be a very powerful force for good Grace Driscoll. I have tears in my eyes imagining strongholds falling for many if you are able to recover your spiritual authority as equal co-heir (Gen 1:26-28) and help(ezer) your husband …”
The un-Biblical subordination/domination of female believers within New Calvinism would come to a screeching halt if women would rise up en masse, declare “Enough is enough!” and start dragging their sorry husbands/boyfriends out of the mess. We need boldness for such a time as this, not submission to an illegitimate authority.
All thugs have their “old ladies” perched behind them on their Harleys. Adults. Choice. Pathetic.
Mice may tell the truth. And it’s not Mickey Mouse.
Ava, you’ve given me a new image of New Calvinism to ponder.
TBH, Calvin evades or escapes or maybe avoids me. Until I started reading TWW, I had no idea, even after living in Switzerland. Looking at how
Calvin ended up treating some who disagreed with him, I’m definitely not a fan of New or Old Cal; not against, just don’t need his stuff over the long haul. Maybe it worked back then. Seems like some of it didn’t.
Luther wrote a treatise in 1543 titled “On the Jews and Their Lies”, in which Luther repeatedly attacks the Jews. Some say this was used in the WW2 Holocaust. The Reformation via Luther’s work was a watershed moment. Luther had become a leader but when he didn’t get his way, like so many other leaders, he slipped up.
The Pope(s)? Mixed bag there, too.
A person’s name, other than Jesus, used to describe faith for the ages, I figure, may result in cracks in the foundation.
A person’s testimony? Yes. Meaningful. Hudson Taylor, for example. Leaders leading by the lived examples of their lives, with excellent consequences that follow (not camouflaging evil), makes sense, IMHO.
Catholic parishes in our area do amazing work. Social justice (not politics). Same with other denoms; some do unquestionably good work.
All the good work is coming from the same Source, our Creator God. Unity.
The predators, also from the same place, evil. Gangsters.
The Along-for-the-Ride folks? Surely God has that figured out.
Wenatcheethehatchet has some intriguing reflections on Mars Hill Church and MD posted in recent days. This one goes into MD’s pre-occupation with male/female relationship.
https://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2021/07/supplemental-reading-for-those-who.html
This is a way-out speculation, but if it’s true that “industrial/processed food” can modulate brain function and the way emotions such as love and loyalty are expressed in brain function and subjectively experienced in individual consciousness … that suggests a possible “take” on cultural phenomena that have been of concern to the churches, such as the long-lamented decline of marriage.
Maybe MD misdiagnosed the problem — instead of more frequent conjugal unions, he should have advised his congregation to source their food from local organic Community Supported Agriculture growers so that their hypothalamuses would produce enough oxytocin.
😛
This thought is offered mostly, but not entirely, tongue-in-cheek.
Samuel Conner,
Speaking of my most favorite Mark Driscoll/Mars Hill info herder, Wenatchee posted this last night speculating a possible/probably connection to Doug Wilson (One of the few people I consider to be even worse than Mark).
https://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2021/07/a-crawford-gribben-inspired-proposal.html#more
Some of the most loving and caring people I know eat lots of “industrial/processed food.” I hate to think what they would be like if they only ate organic food 🙂
It would be interesting to see how much loving behavior would result if you divided small children into two groups for a day, making half of them eat soybean salads and the other eat Happy Meals.
In case any readers don’t know, let’s be very clear. Luther wrote anti-Semitic vitriol. The Roman Catholic Church also had strongly anti-Semitic teachings up until the Second Vatican Council. We don’t need to blame today’s Christians for the past, but we do need to know about current and past hatred.
The US Holocaust Memorial Museum’s excellent film “Why the Jews?” gives this insight into Martin Luther:
In 1517, Martin Luther attacked the Pope and corruption within his own Roman Catholic Church, beginning the Protestant Reformation. The young Luther hoped that tolerance would persuade Jews to convert. But when Jews adhered to their own religious beliefs and refused to join his new reformed church, Luther’s disappointment turned to hatred.
“What then shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? . . .Their synagogues . . .should be set on fire, and what does not burn must be covered over with earth so that no man will ever see stone or cinder of them again. . . .Their houses also should be razed and destroyed. . . . All their prayer books. . .should be taken from them.”
The film can be viewed at the museum’s website. The full transcript of the film is also at this URL: https://www.ushmm.org/antisemitism/what-is-antisemitism/why-the-jews-history-of-antisemitism
Friend,
The LCMS (lutheran church missouri synod) has roundly denounced Luther’s anti-Semitism. In 1983, the Synod adopted an official resolution addressing these statements of Luther and making clear its own position on anti-Semitism. The text of this resolution can be read here:
https://lutheranreformation.org/history/luther-and-the-jews/
Thank you, Muff. And Vatican II changed Roman Catholic teaching.
In my opinion, Christians need to understand exactly how shocking and deadly past teachings were. Otherwise we might have a completely wrong understanding of the Crusades, the Holocaust, and some of the bad things happening today.
Thank you for mentioning there was a full transcript of the film, Friend. Had you not mentioned the transcript, I doubt I would’ve checked out the excellent link you provided.
That.
When leaders don’t get their way. Or, things don’t happen as they assume. Look out. Duck or run.
Oxymoron.
Yes. Change is good.
My point was to always scrutinize leadership while praying for & advocating for the trusting innocents (especially those who seek “family” at church):
https://medium.com/@jonesmary321.mj/moving-forward-b40408a3887b
Never trust one’s soul to a leader, especially the ones who claim to be the “have charge over your souls”:
“you respond and follow those who have charge over your souls” Pastor Tim Armstrong
The soybean salad bunch would lovingly wrestle the Happy Meal crew to the floor to steal their delicacies.
Pastor Driscoll
“WE WANT YOUR SOUL!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rTPXoE8pyI
Some 50 years after an Austrian cult leader with a funny little mustache (and his Inner Ring of pulp villains) used it as Celebirty Backup for his own anei-Semitic agenda.
In one word: KRISTALLNACHT.
Max,
Bwah ha ha!
Like hell I will.
Mara R,
“Why Do People Attend _______’s Church? Cognitive Dissonance? Perhaps They Chose the Blue Pill?”
✔ Cognitive dissonance
✔ Oxymoron
✔ Blue Pill
✔ “Pastor” __________ (fill in the blank)
Max,
Watchman Nee’s slim volume of a book entitled, “Spiritual Reality or Obsession”, addresses the Blue Pill or cognitive dissonance aspect of what some claim as the “Faith” Walk.
Personally, I believe God does miracles at His pleasure, just as in Bible times. However, there’s myth-making that is falsely labelled as God’s work. Watchman Nee wrote of this back in his day, and termed it: obsession.
When it comes to Driscoll, are his followers obsessed or possessed?
Why can’t it be both?
Thanks for posting the link to this helpful article. When I try to work through my own thoughts on this issue, I’m still so hurt and confused.
Most of these articles are written focusing on the effect on Evangelical Women, as they are the hardest hit. Being a guy, I read it with attention to the effect on Evangelical Men.
Like the one horror story in the comments where the wife was messed up enough to get vaginissimus(sp?) and turned away from sex because of the spasms & pain; her husband (who seems to have genuinely wanted the best for her) was advised multiple times by his Pastor to claim his marital rights and literally force himself on her regardless. Which he did, under the authority of his Pastor. Which messed him up as well – God Saith to Rape Her (which he wouldn’t have done except under Pastoral/Divine Command). This resulted in both of them getting even more messed up.
Though not as hard hit as the women, Purity Culture can also mess up Evangelical Men. Primarily because it fosters Unrealistic Expectations bordering on paraphilia. Think about it:
* NO experience with RL women, as even saying “Hi!” or making eye contact means you have committed to marrying her under pain of defrauding.
* Seeing the less-than-happy marriages that result would make you more reluctant to marry at all. But you HAVE TO. (Nort only Unrealistic Expectations, but LOW Expectations.
* Expecting your bride to flip from Virgin Unto Death to My Personal Porn Star the night after she says “I Do”, fulfilling EVERY sexual fantasy that has built up during all those years of Thou Shalt Not.
* DIY sex education seeping through the Purity Culture Barriers, giving you even more Unrealistic Expectations of what to expect. Like the jump cut immediately to the Main Event, without all the emotional bonding commonly reduced to “mere foreplay”. (This is NOT limited to the Christian bubble; I spent my whole adult life searching for companionship (“enjoying her presence”) in a world where all there was is Teh S!E!X!)
It’s almost like Purity Culture teaches and primes both sexes to not only expect the worst from each other, but trains them in Rape Culture. I’m surprised they’re not even more messed up than they are.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
P.S. I was NOT raised in Christianese Purity Culture – far from it – but I ended up internalizing most of its tropes. Extreme emphasis on Virginity until Marriage, Virgin/Whore Dichotomy, girls as some sort of DANGEROUT not-quite-human folk you associate with at your own risk (like some sort of Fae).
My only explanation for this is growing up emotionally isolated in a family who seemed to be time-stopped somewhere around 1953. This makes me think that Mythologized Fifties Culture may be the common key.
Sure.
TBH, I have no idea & little experience with this.
However, since Charismatic-type stuff is around, Nee’s book is helpful.
In his context of new converts in China against the backdrop of another religion, he writes of miracles. Then he notes obsessive behavior that falsely claims miracles. I found this informative.
As with sex topics, miracles topics can be taboo among Xians, or maybe more all or nothing. Nee seeks clarification.