Dr Joe Rigney, New President of John Piper’s Bethlehem Seminary, and Doug Wilson Believe That Empathy Is a Sin

Triangulum galaxy- NASA/JPL-Caltech/UCLA

“I think we all have empathy. We may not have enough courage to display it.” Maya Angelou


Dr. Joe Rigney began serving as the President of Bethlehem Seminary and College on June 1, 2021. His education raised a few eyebrows. Trusty TWW readers will probably pick out the subject of interest.

  • B.A., Texas A&M (Communication)
  • M.A., Bethlehem College & Seminary (Biblical and Pastoral Studies)
  • M.St., New Saint Andrews (Classical Christian Studies)
  • Ph.D., University of Chester

New St. Andrews is the invention of the erstwhile Doug Wilson. I wonder if the new President ran around Moscow, Idaho, wearing a bowler hat and carrying a cane like the rest of the unusual folks who attend there.

I have been writing about Doug Wilson since early on in my blogging. I hold myself up as one person who “inspired” Wilson to remove one of his posts. I am quite curious if Rigney, a supposed academic, also denies HIV.

The following is a post I wrote in 2016. Wilson makes for interesting blogging.


Begin TWW excerpt

Doug Wilson is an unusual man link

I believe that Wilson thinks that most of us who do not agree with him are slanderers and are out to get him because he is *getting in our way.* Let me try to explain this in a way that some people hiding out in the kirk might understand. Doug Wilson is not a threat to the sexual revolution. Most people outside of Moscow, Idaho, certain homeschool cliques, and The Gospel™Coalition know nothing about him.

Wilson is a bit of a character. He appears to fancy himself an Oxford Don. He set up a church, which he calls a kirk, that he fashions after the church of Scotland in Moscow, Idaho. His web address is http://www.christkirk.com

The Kirk is an informal name for the Church of Scotland, the country’s national church. The Kirk of Scotland was in official use as the name of the Church of Scotland until the 17th century, and still today the term is frequently used in the press and everyday speech, though seldom in the Church’s own literature. However, Kirk Session is still the standard term in church law for the court of elders in the local congregation, both in the Church of Scotland and in any of the other Scottish Presbyterian denominations.
It was observed by a commenter from Moscow that a number of Wilson’s students in his college called New St Andrews (of course) are often seen wandering around Moscow wearing bowler hats, black robes, and sporting canes apparently channeling their leader’s Oxford don obsession. Do you all remember Doug Phillips who also used to play dress-up? Remember the *Indiana Jones in the Amazon* get up? Remember all Mahaney’s followers who shaved their heads in solidarity. (We called them mini-Mahaneys.)

Here is a list of issues that Doug Wilson has had to deal with. He appears to get frustrated when people do not see things his way and spends lots of time claiming that we can’t read.

Over the past few years, we have seen a number of people express concerns over Wilson’s views on various issues. His views on slavery are particularly concerning.

End TWW excerpt


In 2009, Christianity Today post this about Wilson: The Controversialist

f Doug Wilson most likely knew him in his other roles: pastor provocateur in a liberal university town; polarizing leader in the classical Christian education movement; nonconforming Calvinist who has made so many enemies in Reformed circles that no denomination will have him.

…Wilson’s congregation, Christ Church, was growing so rapidly that he didn’t have time to escape to seminary (save for one summer at Regent College in Vancouver), and did his best to study independently. His studies covered Scripture and the church fathers, but also led him further off the beaten track, to Christian Reconstructionism.

…Christian Reconstructionists are controversial, to put it mildly. The brainchild of Rousas John Rushdoony, an Armenian-American pastor and disciple of Presbyterian theologian Cornelius Van Til, Christian Reconstructionism’s core is the application of every jot and tittle of Mosaic Law to modern Christian life, and a postmillennialism that borders on a call for outright theocracy.

Wilson says he rejects the Reconstructionists’ political tactics and distances himself from the label, claiming that his view of Old Testament law is more subtle than theirs. But when I asked what he thought of the death penalty for homosexual acts suggested in Leviticus 20:13, he did not shy away from the theonomic hard line that disturbs many Christians. “You can’t apply Scripture woodenly,” he says. “You might exile some homosexuals, depending on the circumstances and the age of the victim. There are circumstances where I’d be in favor of execution for adultery. … I’m not proposing legislation. All I’m doing is refusing to apologize for certain parts of the Bible.”

What did John Piper say about his appointment?

You can see the entire 9-minute video of his lengthy discussion of how much he loves the guy but I will spare you.

Chancellor John Piper responded to the announcement saying, “I have known Tim Tomlinson and Joe Rigney longer than Bethlehem College & Seminary has existed. But since it has existed, both of their lives have been interwoven with mine and with the school. For the 11 years of this school’s existence, the grace of God in their lives has come cascading over the little waterfall of my life, becoming an ever increasing part of the reservoir of my thankfulness.”

“Year by year I looked upon their futures with glad trust that God would use them mightily for his glory through Bethlehem College & Seminary. That trust has been warranted—in the remarkable presidency of Dr. Tomlinson and the remarkable professorship of Dr. Rigney. As their trusted future has become a proven past, I am increasingly thankful,” he added.

It appears that Piper is also a big fan of Doug Wilson. I apologize that I did have to embed Piper’s thinking in its entirety. He’s a huge fan, just like he has been for Mark Driscoll and CJ Mahaney.

Joe Rigney gets himself into a pile of trouble by agreeing with Doug Wilson that empathy is a sin.

Hooooo boy!  This is a pile of silliness. As a nurse and the mother of a very sick child, I learned the difference. Sympathy is feeling bad when someone has a gravely ill child. It might involve sending a get-well card with a teddy bear and even delivering a meal to the family. It’s kind, thoughtful, and appreciated. Empathy, on the other hand,  is sitting with your friends during the 12-hour surgery, bringing sandwiches and raspberry muffins along with my favorite Charles Chips. It is laughing and then crying when the chaplain came in to speak with us with red lipstick all over her teeth. She was so kind but she kept smiling and the lipstick was everywhere. We didn’t laugh until she was gone and then cried that I needed the chaplain. They understood my nervous laughter and they wrapped their arms around me.

Empathy is far deeper and broader than sympathy and it seems like they have nothing better to do than attempt to say that empathy is actually a sin. If you want to watch the entire 1-hour love fest between these two men, I have embedded the video called “The Sin of Empathy.”

What did they say that caused the controversy (sparing you a lost hour of your life?)

Warren Throckmorton helps us out by quoting them in his well-written Empathy is Not a Sin.

When you start with man as image-bearing creature of God, you can understand why sympathy is good, but empathy is sinful.
Do not surrender our mind to the sinful emotional responses of others.

Rigney: That’s right. And the, and I think that actually is the most relevant difference between them because, so empathy is the sort of thing that you’ve got someone drowning, or they’re in quicksand, and they’re sinking. And what empathy wants to do it jump into the quicksand with them, both feet, and-and it feels like that’s going to be more loving, because they’re going to feel like, I’m glad that you’re here with me in the quicksand. Problem is you’re both now sinking.

Wilson: Right.
Rigney: Right. Whereas, if you do, I’m going to keep one foot on the shore, and I’m actually gonna grab onto this big branch, and then I’ll step one foot in there with you and try to pull you out. That’s sympathy, and that’s-that’s actually helpful. But to the person who’s in there, it can feel like you’re judging me.

Wilson: So sympathy’s clearly hierarchical
Rigney: Right. It implies that one person is the hurting, and one person is the helper.
Wilson: Right.

Rigney: And, and no, and that’s part of the problem is no one wants to feel like they’re the hurting. We want to equalize everything. And so, and so empathy demands, get in here with me, otherwise you don’t love me.
Wilson: But what do you lose— when you get in there with them, and you’re all in, they’re drowning, they’re in the quicksand, they’re in the trouble, and you identify with them completely.

Your darn right, Rigney. Empathy means you get into the waiting room with them. You cry and laugh with them. You bring food. Sometimes, you even have to go into the bathroom so you can cry for your friend alone. It’s a beautiful and hard thing. Yes, getting in there with them really helps.

Let’s talk about sin, a favorite topic of Wilson.

You have a friend who overdoses on Oxycontin and lands in the hospital. You had no idea she was addicted. You wrap your arms around her and tell her how glad you are that she is here with you. You bring her some flowers and maybe a milkshake if allowed. You help straighten her pillows and blanket and just sit for a while if she is up to it. Obviously, she has a problem with addiction. Is this time to speak with your friend? No! If I were a nurse, I would throw such a *friend* out of the room. This is not the time. She must get well first. Are you the right person to speak with her about this? Maybe not. Maybe she has a counselor? Maybe she’s not ready. But empathy means you come into her life and feel for her and her struggles.

A family member was in a horrific car accident years ago. He was on strong painkillers during his lengthy hospital stay and then rehab. Back then, no one counseled him about weaning off the meds. He went home, addicted. He then sought out drug dealers who kept him supplied until he ran out of money. Thankfully, there were those around him who cared enough for him to encourage him to seek help which he did. He deserved empathy as well as the tough talk that those who loved him eventually had.

I knew about his addiction but we weren’t close. I felt bad for him. I sent him cards but I was not able to empathize with him. He finally met others who had overcome their addictions and understood him. He had a friend to walk with him. That friend was always available to him, 24/7. Yes, that’s empathy. My cards were sympathy. Pounding him over the head with his *sin* would not have been effective in motivating him to seek help. That help brought him to a point in which he owned his addiction.

A Twitter discussion involving Dr. Rigney

I watched a Twitter debate with Rigney on the matter. Throckmorton kindly put a link to it. I loved this assessment of the discussion by Dr. Throckmorton. It made me laugh because it was so true. It is always about authority with these guys.

What the theodudes seem upset about is that they seem to believe empathy puts the person who understands another’s feelings and experience on the same level as the person who is being understood. They want to be in authority.

Doug Wilson was none too pleased about this discussion and wrote The Empathy Wars.

Here are the concluding words to his post.

Suppose someone has accused some powerful figure of serious sexual misconduct. No matter who we are, we must process the accusation. We will either do it on the basis of whether the claims can be objectively verified, or we will do it on the basis of whether the claims are being made against Brett Kavanaugh or Andrew Cuomo.

So if we are actually debating Empathy (B), and we are, then our ultimate choice is between courts or mobs, facts or feelings, justice or injustice, salvation or damnation. It is a debate of great moment. These things really matter.

Last Word
I began with the observation that this debate was an odd one. It is particularly odd when it comes to the debate among Christians, given how the life of our Lord Jesus is described for us in Scripture.

“For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.”

Heb. 4:15 (NKJV)
The word translated by the NKJV here as sympathize is, as it turns out, the Greek word sympathesai. I think that is more than sufficient, and if it isn’t, it ought to be.

An absence of empathy is associated with antisocial behaviors.

Dr. Throckmorton, a psychologist, had this important observation.

Empathy is simply understanding the inner world of other people. It is all about being able to relate to them and understand what they are going through. It quite important in human functioning and when absent is associated with cruelty and antisocial behavior

Could a lack of empathy point to Narcissistic Personality Disorder?

Dr. Throckmorton left a link to this paper from the NIH. Empathy in Narcissistic Personality Disorder: From Clinical and Empirical Perspectives; It’s a fascinating read but I think this sums it up.

Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is associated with an assortment of characteristics that undermine interpersonal functioning. A lack of empathy is often cited as the primary distinguishing feature of NPD. However, clinical presentations of NPD suggest that empathy is not simply deficient in these individuals, but dysfunctional and subject to a diverse set of motivational and situational factors.

However, we have to be careful. The conclusion to the paper states the following.

The variability in empathic capability among narcissistic individuals highlights the inaccuracy in stating that narcissism is simply related to a lack of empathy. Foremost, it points to the need for informed exploratory and flexible therapeutic interventions as well as awareness of possible functional changes or adjustments. By adjusting the framework of the narcissism–empathy relationship, therapists may be better able to understand narcissistic patients’ negative reactions to a therapist’s well-intended efforts (Glasser, 1992; Kohut, 1972), and their difficultly accepting therapeutic interventions, as an indication of compromised empathic functioning. Similarly, acknowledging empathic fluctuations in terms of motivational disengagement or difficulty regulating an affective experience can also encourage therapists to recognize conditions that enable and motivate the patient’s empathic engagement in order to encourage more flexible ways of interacting across interpersonal and social contexts. A shift to more proactive therapeutic understanding and interventions can ultimately replace the strong aura of condemnation that has been associated to prior views of narcissistic empathic functioning.

So, who knows? But I do know and have experienced empathy which was most definitely not a sin.

Comments

Dr Joe Rigney, New President of John Piper’s Bethlehem Seminary, and Doug Wilson Believe That Empathy Is a Sin — 230 Comments

  1. Every once in awhile, I’ve done a few posts on my own blog about the topic of empathy.

    One reason I became sort of interested in this topic is that while I believe the Bible advises Christians to be empathetic (Romans 12:15), and for years, while my Mom was alive, I showed empathy to other people…
    the empathy I gave to others was not shown to me after my Mom died, not even by the people I had comforted years before when they were going through stuff.

    I’ve found if you go to another Christian during a trying time in your life, seeking some kind of emotional support, you won’t receive any.

    You’ll instead be on the receiving end of platitudes, shaming, or lectures about “getting over it.”

    Some people do remain stalled in anger or pain and probably should work past it,
    but there are times in life when some of us are just hurting, our hurt is a perfectly normal reaction, and we could use a lot of empathy to get through that.

    Anyway, here is one of the posts on my blog about it – tell me if this isn’t ironic, LOL:
    World’s Top Empathy Researcher Accused Of Bullying Colleagues
    https://missdaisyflower.wordpress.com/2018/08/16/%e2%80%a2-worlds-top-empathy-researcher-accused-of-bullying-colleagues/

  2. Been listening to “Jesus and John Wayne” audio book as I work in my wood shop. The author covers some of Doug Wilson’s shenanigans. She does a great job of reviewing and evaluating recent history of evangelical movement. She connects a lot of dots.
    Highly recommended if you want to know how we got to where we are today.

  3. For all of their scripture knowledge, you’d think they’d remember the shortest one: “Jesus wept” (John 11:35).

    The context? Lazarus had died. Jesus knew that Lazarus had died. He purposefully delayed his coming to Bethany so that Lazarus would die. He ALSO knew that Lazarus would return to life. (“So then he told them plainly, ‘Lazarus is dead, and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.'” John 11:14-15)

    Then, when Jesus goes to the tomb and sees Mary and the other Jews there weeping, and is confronted by Mary saying, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died,” what does he do?

    NOT tell them it’s all part of God’s plan.

    NOT tell them he’s excited to see how God will work through this trial.

    NOT tell them to have more faith.

    He is “deeply moved in spirit and troubled.” And he WEEPS. Not “cries,” but “weeps.” Gut-wrenching, snot-nosed, blothcy-faced WEEPS.

    And only AFTER this does he raise Lazarus from the dead.

    If that’s not empathy, I don’t know what is.

  4. “Year by year I looked upon their futures with glad trust that God would use them mightily for his glory through Bethlehem College & Seminary.”

    Woo-hoo. But seriously, who talks like this in real life?

  5. There is a connection here…follow the reasoning. If Wilson is Calvinistic in his (warped) theology then to show empathy over something God allowed/ordained is to be critical of God himself. This would lead to becoming emotionally and theolgically dead to the pain of others.

  6. ‘Suppose someone has accused some powerful figure of serious sexual misconduct. No matter who we are, we must process the accusation. We will either do it on the basis of whether the claims can be objectively verified, or we will do it on the basis of whether the claims are being made against Brett Kavanaugh or Andrew Cuomo.’

    I’m sorry, How is Doug Wilson qualified to state any opinion on handling sexual misconduct? You have got to be kidding me! The arrogance and self-deception of this man!

  7. A favorite verse that shows Christ as the Revealer of God, this:
    ” 36 When He saw the crowds, He was moved with compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.”
    (from the 9th chapter of the Holy Gospel of St. Matthew)

    so I went to find out if ‘compassion’ was a kind of ’empathy’, here:

    Merriam-Webster on EMPATHY (synonyms/antonyms)

    “the feeling that you understand and share another person’s experiences and emotions, example: He felt great empathy toward the poor.”

    SYNONYMS & Near Synonyms for EMPATHY:

    pity, sympathy, understanding
    charity, clemency, forbearance, lenience, leniency, lenity, mercifulness, mercy, quarter
    humanitarianism, philanthropy
    commiseration, favor, grace
    benevolence, care, compassion, gentleness, goodness, goodwill, humaneness, kindliness, kindness, meekness, mildness, niceness, softness, tenderness
    altruism, generosity, magnanimity, nobility
    affection, devotion, love, worship

    ANTONYMS & Near Antonyms for EMPATHY:

    hard-heartedness, mercilessness, pitilessness, ruthlessness, uncharitableness
    reprisal, requital, retaliation, retribution, revenge, vengeance
    venom, vindictiveness, virulence, vitriol
    atrocity, barbarity, brutality, cruelty, sadism, savageness, savagery, truculence, viciousness, violence, wantonness
    castigation, chastisement, discipline, punishment, scolding
    abhorrence, abomination, detestation, execration, hate, hatred, loathing
    cattiness, malevolence, malice, maliciousness, malignancy, malignity, meanness, nastiness, spite, spitefulness, spleen
    animosity, antagonism, antipathy, bitterness, enmity, gall, grudge, hostility, jealousy, pique, resentment
    bile, jaundice, rancor
    hatefulness, invidiousness
    coarseness, hardness, harshness, roughness

  8. Wild Honey,

    Yes! Exactly this! EVERYTHING about Jesus was done out of empathy. Becoming human, and coming to earth to not only share in our sorrows, but He became sin FOR us. Have these guys never even cracked open a Bible?!? Yikes!

    Maybe it would behoove them to memorize or even tattoo on their arm a little quote from Job, “I’m speechless, in awe—words fail me. I should never have opened my mouth! I’ve talked too much, way too much. I’m ready to shut up and listen.” -Job 40:4 (The Message) Perhaps they should go and do likewise!

  9. an example of the kind of empathic good-will that comes from Eastern Christianity:

    “”The Holy Spirit teaches us to love our enemies
    in such way that we pity their souls as if they were our own children.”

    (St. Silouan the Athonite, Writings, I.11)

  10. Cynthia W.:
    “Year by year I looked upon their futures with glad trust that God would use them mightily for his glory through Bethlehem College & Seminary.”

    Woo-hoo.But seriously, who talks like this in real life?

    Who says God “kissed” their church? Creepy.

  11. R,

    I suppose it comes from living in a bubble where nobody says, “Why don’t you just try talking like normal people?”

    Poetry is very well in its place, but if you can’t say your piece in straight-up prose, maybe you’re just babbling nonsense.

  12. Cynthia W.,

    sounds more like ‘palaver’ than ‘poetry’, probably the result of trying to ‘imitate’ what they think is spoken in Oxford (UK)

    (these guyz are putting on the dog for ‘show’, big time, they are running a clown show in trying to imitate the Oxford dons)

  13. Indifference to human life is sin. Extreme indifference is extreme sin. Apathy vs empathy.

    Love God, love your neighbor as yourself. JC

    The complexities of addressing a society’s human slavery is no small endeavor.

    The same with addressing sexual predators, particularly in church, where all is supposedly forgiven and redeemed.

    Hubris and laziness (also sins) can never measure up to addressing these real life events.

    U of Idaho professors as well as some in the Moscow community have posted online a legacy of arrogance, laziness, and shenanigans of Wilson.

    Seems there are locals, however, who connect with the kirk. Shallow so-called theology (theology lite, with junk food answers to complex problems) cloaked in a network of “church” has a certain social networking appeal. Folks are along for the ride.

    BBC also has the Along for the Ride crowd, obviously. Anyone with a conscience and a brain can see the disconnect with what their Dear Leader did to women vs his Dear Divorced Son.

  14. Cynthia W.: Woo-hoo. But seriously, who talks like this in real life?

    I know folks who loved his speech, worshipped the ground he walked on. They emulated his speech constantly. It was surreal and grating all at once.

  15. Abigail: If Wilson is Calvinistic in his (warped) theology then to show empathy over something God allowed/ordained is to be critical of God himself.

    This made wonder how much Wilson is impacted by the teachings of Jonathan Edwards. The top two search results are a couple of his blog posts from Sept 2019 defending Edwards’ purchase and ownership of slaves. Apparently, there is a right way and a wrong way to own slaves.

  16. We all do plenty of actual sinning that we need to confess. Why do they feel like they have to make up new sins?

  17. HereIStand: I’m sorry, How is Doug Wilson qualified to state any opinion on handling sexual misconduct? You have got to be kidding me! The arrogance and self-deception of this man!

    Arrogant and maybe, NPD.

  18. Bridget,

    I think it’s easy to admire and begin to imitate another person, and that can quickly lead to excess. If one is out in the world and involved with a lot of different people, one can notice it and remain reasonable, but in a closed community where everyone is doing it, look out.

  19. R: Who says God “kissed” their church? Creepy.

    Lisa Sproul says that Gods “fingerprints are all over” her and RCJR.

  20. Wild Honey,

    Well spoken Wild Honey!
    Well spoken, and a perfect rebuke to Piper and Wilson.
    Straight out of the Book they claim to revere above all else.

  21. Tina: If I’m reading the context correctly, the reference is to the human immunodeficiency virus, the virus that causes AIDS.

    That’s what I thought too.
    Rather than excavating another ten-meter grid like an Egyptologist would do to try and decipher the inscription on a plinth, I’ll just leave it at that.

    She wears an Egyptian ring, it sparkles before she speaks
    She wears an Egyptian ring, it sparkles before she speaks
    She’s a hypnotist collector, you are a walking antique

    — Bob Dylan —

  22. “wandering around Moscow wearing bowler hats, black robes, and sporting canes …Doug Phillips who also used to play dress-up?
    …..all Mahaney’s followers who shaved their heads in solidarity. (We called them mini-Mahaneys.)”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    sigh…. just like the identity crisis of a 12 year-old, playing dress-up to fit in.

    yet another example of how christian culture is like a Twilight Zone episode, being stuck in jr. high/middle school.

  23. What Rigney is describing is called codependency. His imagination extends no further than codependency, he is stuck in it, and is not capable of anything other than it; therefore the ideal world he wishes to enforce rigidly on this planet (out of freudenschade and cosmic scale drama) will not contain anyone that is capable of anything other than it.

    He is blaspheming real life empathy – and sympathy – of billions of people christian and non christian – people that keep me and you going. He is the puppeteer of all strings. He is the one who has foreordained our last detail, our last hair, like his father the Piper.

    An assistant minister I know (I thought assistant ministers were people you actually have a conversation with) when I mentioned a person I am close to – but at geographical distance – had described to me their sufferings (probably the topic was do you have people in your life and I hadn’t gone over the detail, simply the fact) he said I have got to take no notice.

    He obviously doesn’t think Jesus is someone I ought to want to pray to for someone. Now his church authorities have sent him for training for promotion and frankly I dread what is going to come of it when he is the boss of a parish, given the amount of chaos when he wasn’t (also down to other people).

    The church where I met him was very hysterical and they used to sing the ectoplasm song a lot (you know the one with “at-mo-sphere” pronounced in a soppy voice): hedonistic and desiring, with Bethelism and Torontulism thrown in (and Bromptosauruses – RZ associates).

    I am having shudders because of people – some of them at my church previous to that one – who were fixated with following these types, whom I knew less about then, otherwise I could have warned them. I didn’t realise they were all so interconnected.

  24. Ken F (aka Tweed): Speaking of Piper, here is what he tweeted about empathy:
    “If Jesus is not empathetic to your mistreatment, you don’t need to be. If he is, no one else needs to be. He will settle.”

    I’ve long said that if you (generic you) listen to these kinds of men, they will strip you of your humanity.

  25. elastigirl: yet another example of how christian culture is like a Twilight Zone episode, being stuck in jr. high/middle school.

    I have no doubt that Rod Serling and Buck Houghton could have written a disturbing episode with ‘christian culture’ as its theme.

  26. R,

    “We all do plenty of actual sinning that we need to confess. Why do they feel like they have to make up new sins?”
    ++++++++++++++

    to conjure up something “new & improved!”, to make a name for themselves, build their brand.

    ridiculous… like dreaming up accessories for the pet rock and selling them.

    truth is, i’ve heard nothing insightful, nothing glistening with inspiration from any christian communicator in at least 27 years.

    either inspiration has been turned off hard at the tap by the cosmic creator, or else christian culture is repellant to it.

    or, really, christian paranoia has doused the place with Roundup to kill it all, and make sure nothing unauthorized will ever grow in the ground again.
    .
    .
    inspiration is an interesting topic… we could explore that for hours, days, at a table with a candle, beverages of choice, cheese, chocolate, olives, sprigs of rosemary, thyme & basil leaves, cigars…
    .
    .
    actually, i think we *don’t* do plenty of sinning. i think the sin list is short.

  27. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    Because he is bigger than Jesus, Holy Spirit and the Apostles, and because his word is better than Holy Scripture, he has succeeded in negating “when one suffers, all suffer”.

  28. Eric Bonetti: Does the phrase “bat snot cray-cray” come to mind? Even by my standards, he’s pretty out there, LOL

    Sure it’s not bat-poo-poo-crazy?
    (poo-poo being the alternate form of… well, the one that won’t clear customs)

  29. elastigirl: like dreaming up accessories for the pet rock and selling them.

    You have a way of hitting bull’s eyes.
    And they’re funny too.

  30. https://www.facebook.com/ExaminingMoscow/

    FB page with timeline. “We are a Christian organization documenting the serious and disqualifying errors associated with Doug Wilson, a self appointed pastor in Moscow, Idaho.”

    -Plagiarism
    -Cover of Predators
    -Tax fraud
    -“Center For Biblical Counseling: ‘We may disclose to the church leadership information which we believe is necessary for them to effectively and biblically fulfill their responsibility to shepherd.’ CBC does not respect your privacy and they will violate it without your permission… relevant because Doug Wilson blackmails kirkers and former kirkers into silence by threatening to publish their confidential information. He has an empire to protect; he does not welcome whistleblowers.”
    -Etc.

  31. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    You really need to read Edwards.

    “In sum, the Puritans’ position can be summarized as follows: Masters were expected to “care” for their slaves, while slaves were to submit to societal “order.” Jonathan Edwards’s view of slavery followed this position. According to Mark Va- leri, Edwards believed that owning slaves was permissible, since “God instituted social hierarchies as the means to social integration and solidarity.”28 Yet, Edwards argues that slavery should only be permitted “as long as they were treated humanely and encouraged to become Christians.”29 In his “Blank Bible” on Job 31:15, Ed- wards writes, “if I despise my servant’s cause, how much more may God despise me cause? I am God’s servant as they are mine, and much more inferior to God than my servant is to me.”30 It seems that he wanted to do his best to fulfill his duty to his slaves. This type of defending slaveholding was common in New Eng- land.31 Like Willard and Mather, Edwards “denied that there was any inherent infe- riority among different peoples in God’s eye”

    “What Edwards developed beyond Puritan beliefs. First, Edwards had a nuanced view of slavery. Although he owned slaves and defended slavery, he did not defend slavery wholeheartedly. Minkema argues that Edwards’s letter “acknowledged its inequities and disturbing implications.”34 Marsden also contends that although Ed- wards had a negative view of slavery, he believed it was necessary to permit a cer- tain amount of evil to maintain society because “the whole economy of New Eng- land depended on products produced by African slavery.”35 In this sense, Ed- wards’s attitude toward slavery slightly differs from the Puritans who preceded him.
    Second, Edwards acted in line with what he believed about slavery. He was the first minister at Northampton to baptize blacks and admit them into full church membership. Between 1735 and 1741, he baptized eleven blacks and seven of those became full members.36 While he was not the only clergyman who accepted to do so, nonetheless baptizing and accepting blacks as full church membership were certainly not common. Even by 1772, Ezra Stiles records “there were perhaps 26, and not above 30 professors out of Twelve hundred Negroes in Town.”37
    Third, Edwards enlarged on some of his predecessors’ understanding of “neighbor.” When Winthrop provided laws for New England Puritans, Winthrop limited the community only to Christians, not simply as “one man to another, as the same fleshe and Image of god” but “as a brother in Christ allsoe, and in the Communion of the same spirit and soe teaches us to put a difference betweene Christians and others.”38 Since Winthrop believed humanity had lost their inno- cence, he thought that only regenerate people who experienced saving grace could recognize the same gracious principle in other regenerate persons.39 Edwards took a different position. He defined neighbors as all human beings. He argued that if one defines neighbors narrowly as those of the same religion, it would be permissi- ble to lie to other nations because the law commands, “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor,” and other nations are not neighbors.40 Thus, Ed- wards believed the moral law should be applied to the treatment of all nations. This theology resulted in Edwards’s belief that European nations had no right to steal people from African nations.”
    (JONATHAN EDWARDS AND THE ANTI-SLAVERY MOVEMENT
    HEEJOON JEON*)

  32. Lowlandseer: You really need to read Edwards.

    I’ve read enough of Edwards to know that he is toxic. He wrote some beautiful things and some atrocious things. On the balance, I find him harmful. As for my comment about there being a right way to own slaves, that comment was directed toward Wilson. Although I don’t find anything praiseworthy in Edwards’ version of it either.

  33. Cynthia W.,

    Words dissemble
    Words be quick
    Words resemble walking sticks
    Plant them they will grow
    Watch them waver so

    — From An American Prayer
    by James Douglas Morrison —

  34. Ken F (aka Tweed): Lowlandseer: You really need to read Edwards.

    I’ve read enough of Edwards to know that he is toxic.

    Which is why I would wonder why anyone would “really need to read Edwards”. IAC, there are preacher-quoters of Edwards aplenty, as well as of Calvin. Flavors of late. Fans.

    OTOH, IMHO, life-changing texts or writers or life stories: Bible, Corrie ten Boom, Watchman Nee, George Müller, Francis Schaeffer, Billy Collins, Maya Angelou, Brother Andrew, Ste Jeanne-Françoise de Chantal.

    Personally, not a fan of CS Lewis, Mother Theresa. No judgment, though, on them and their fans. Just not a fan.

    Choice. Never a groupie.

  35. Lowlandseer,

    This is why we are all the slave property of Edwards. (I also think some of his strong statements about – relatively – rejoicing parents apply against tyrant leaders.)

  36. Ava Aaronson: OTOH, IMHO, life-changing texts or writers or life stories: Bible, Corrie ten Boom, Watchman Nee, George Müller, Francis Schaeffer, Billy Collins, Maya Angelou, Brother Andrew, Ste Jeanne-Françoise de Chantal.

    Add Elie Wiesel to the list.

    Ava Aaronson: Personally, not a fan of CS Lewis, Mother Theresa. No judgment, though, on them and their fans. Just not a fan.

    You’ve got guts, so I’ll chime in too by saying that I was never much of a Lewis fan either.

  37. Muff Potter: Elie Wiesel

    “Night” is amazing, and yes, another life-changing story for me. The town, even Wiesel’s dad, ignored Moishe the Beadle. Let us not ignore God’s messengers, though they be neither brash nor proud.

    Speaking of, getting back to our topic, Empathy, and even so far as to deem human slavery a plus, imagine that rendition of the Holocaust. When that day comes, may we heed the call of the “Moishe the Beadle” that God sends to warn.

    This very “teaching” of empathy as sin is a landing place for pure evil. It is teaching white as black and black as white (nothing to do with race here, folks, simply opposite colors, with no judgment about either. Just speaking of a major disconnect, a catastrophic deceit. Big lie. As twisted as it gets.)

    Oy vey.

  38. His views on slavery are particularly concerning.

    You mean that “Peculiar Institution regarding Animate Property”?

  39. A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants. A woman receives, surrenders, accepts.

    Now doesn’t that sound like a RAPIST’s mentality?

  40. Muff Potter: Ken F (aka Tweed): Speaking of Piper, here is what he tweeted about empathy:
    “If Jesus is not empathetic to your mistreatment, you don’t need to be. If he is, no one else needs to be. He will settle.”

    I’ve long said that if you (generic you) listen to these kinds of men, they will strip you of your humanity.

    Their message seems to be, Don’t get involved, don’t let your hands get dirty, just lecture them about the Law.

  41. Evangelical super-pastors keep blaming the demise of the church on their congregations and the culture. I think at some point there is going to be a huge implosion and the church will totally lose most of its societal influence-except maybe for smaller congregations that really do practice what they preach. I know a few of those, and most of them are not white evangelical. They are Black, Hispanic and Asian Evangelical.

  42. Headless Unicorn Guy: A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants. A woman receives, surrenders, accepts.

    Now doesn’t that sound like a RAPIST’s mentality?

    One difference: Most likely a rapist is not quoting Chapter & Verse as he “penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants” while the victim “receives, surrenders, accepts”.

    If I may quote Chapter & Verse with an entirely different approach: Revelation 3:20 illustrates Jesus as a man fellowshipping with us by our invitation, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.”

    Not the conquering approach. Granted the aforementioned conquering approach is about a man with a woman, but is this conquering approach really what we learn from Scripture?

    The kirk has a counseling center where all disclosed is not private but can be shared with the kirk’s leadership for church discipline (shepherding) at leadership discretion.

    In marriage counseling, this man conquering the woman approach is their model of a healthy marriage?

  43. Ava Aaronson: “Night” is amazing, and yes, another life-changing story for me. The town, even Wiesel’s dad, ignored Moishe the Beadle. Let us not ignore God’s messengers, though they be neither brash nor proud.

    The smart ones (Jews) liquidated their assets early and got out of Europe early.

  44. Ava Aaronson: One difference: Most likely a rapist is not quoting Chapter & Verse as he “penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants” while the victim “receives, surrenders, accepts”.

    In addition to being a Holy Book with no equal in all the world and in all of history, the Bible has also been used by the unscrupulous to advance their aims by using it’s very loftiness to bamboozle the weak.

  45. Muff Potter: In addition to being a Holy Book with no equal in all the world and in all of history, the Bible has also been used by the unscrupulous to advance their aims by using it’s very loftiness to bamboozle the weak.

    Very well stated. Brings to mind Jesus’ face-off with satan in the wilderness, only JC was in no way bamboozled. Our wonderful Lord Jesus. May His Holy Spirit guide us.

  46. This is a prime example of why I love Sabine Hossenfelder so much. She takes the kind of logic we use to ask critical questions of religious institutions and applies it to scientific institutions and guess what? She finds the same kinds of problems there. Here is her latest video about a paper she was told to write that got cancelled, refused to be published, just because it was too logical and honest. Can Physics Be Too Speculative? An Honest Opinion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f23eWOquFQ0

  47. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    That’s certainly one way for Piper to absolve himself (and other believers) of responsibility in caring for one another, should anyone ask. “Jesus is all you need; why should I help?”

    Doesn’t really square with any other number of verses regarding loving one’s neighbor, bearing one another’s burdens, etc., does it?

  48. Wild Honey: Doesn’t really square with any other number of verses regarding loving one’s neighbor, bearing one another’s burdens, etc., does it?

    Without question.
    The Empathy is Sin folks must have a New Abridged Version of the Bible.
    From the Unabridged Version of the Bible, Matt. 25:

    “The Son of Man will come in His glory, all nations gathered; He will separate them as the shepherd separates sheep from goats; the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left.

    “He will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’

    “The righteous will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? see You as a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’

    “He will answer, ‘What you did for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of Mine, you did for Me.’

    “He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’

    “They will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or as a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’

    “He will answer, ‘What you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me, either.’

    “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    ——————

    Notably on a video posted above, Rigney claims that the person in need is the lowest common denominator in a group, therefore one would not want to empathize or sink that low with them.

    Wilson: So sympathy’s clearly hierarchical.
    _____________________

    Hierarchy in tact, don’t humble yourself like Jesus did, to help others and feel emotions with them: because Jesus wept.
    _____________________

    So with the Calvinists, first there’s no “Whosoever will may come to salvation” because that is already preselected. Secondly, don’t share in the sufferings of others because empathy is sin.

    Again, from the Unabridged Bible: “Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.” from James 1.

  49. Lowlandseer,

    Lowlandseer, you would be the ideal person to help me with your opinion as a probable representative of the unfashionable genuine calvinists.

    What do you think of Richard Swinburne? He has been hyped thus: “Richard Swinburne is an Emeritus professor at Oriel College, Oxford University, and is widely considered one of the greatest living Christian philosophers. He’s done original work in philosophy of science, epistemology …” His science work strikes me as a retrogressive version of statistics: hence religion, for Swinburne, is a “likely behaviour”.

    Swinburne promulgates a kind of demiurge (which bestows a different kind of disability and a different kind of philosophy on christians than on non-christians: extreme “analogy” of being). Swinburne’s own mentor was influenced by some over-ambitious mathematics that got punctured by Gödel, an honest agnostic.

    His “authoritative” stances uncannily resemble those of Piper who sees his model of “god” as merely commanding “morals”. One R Mouw stated Piper’s view is in the J S Mill / Bentham mould. According to Copleston, J S Mill saw belief in a finite “god” as socially useful.

    From both Piper and Swinburne an impersonal and too small god needs “sugar” coating. Hence these have been melded with emotionalised Saivite-like mysticism to form the atmosphere “emanating” from Oxford.

    How far in your opinion do Piper and Swinburne offer a case in point about what “proper” calvinism isn’t?

  50. Bridget:
    Cynthia W.: Woo-hoo. But seriously, who talks like this in real life?

    I know folks who loved his speech, worshipped the ground he walked on. They emulated his speech constantly. It was surreal and grating all at once.

    Hey watch the past tense!

  51. Empathy is motivated and driven by love. I’ve noted this time and again about the New Calvinists … love is not the first descriptor that pops to mind when talking about NeoCals; arrogance is. No church should have to suffer through a pastor who has no love and empathy for its members.

    “By this everyone will know that you are My disciples, if you have love and unselfish concern for one another.” (John 13:35 AMP)

    Without empathy driven by love, these men cannot be disciples of Christ. By their words, they demonstrate no understanding and awareness in their inner man about the feelings of others. They apparently have no capacity to imagine what another must be going through and don’t appear to be concerned that they do not. Disciples? I think not. Their inner man does not bear witness to such love.

    New Calvinism … when will this madness end?!

  52. R: I’m becoming increasingly convinced that they’re all bonkers.

    The end result of New Calvinism is madness. One cannot continually feed on such aberrations of faith without losing their minds after a while. They forfeit their spiritual bearings for the teachings and traditions of men which do not point true North … and eventually get lost.

  53. Ava Aaronson: So with the Calvinists, first there’s no “Whosoever will may come to salvation” because that is already preselected. Secondly, don’t share in the sufferings of others because empathy is sin.

    Calvinism was developed well before Poe’s law was formulated. If I did not know better, I would suggest that Calvinism started as satire, and no one got the joke. And once it got out, it could not be put back into the bag because too many people had invested in it and could not back out (sunk cost fallacy). But, of course, I say this as someone who does not understand Calvinism (which lumps me in with 100% of humanity).

  54. Ken F (aka Tweed): I say this as someone who does not understand Calvinism (which lumps me in with 100% of humanity)

    The vast majority of Christendom worldwide have rejected the tenets of reformed theology for 500+ years.

  55. Abigail: emotionally and theologically dead to the pain of others

    Here’s a real-life example of a man who wasn’t “dead to the pain of others.”

    A family lost a child to cancer. They had several children. An elderly gentleman from their church went to their house after funeral plans had been announced. He went to the backdoor through their screened porch, knocked, expressed his “sympathy” to the father and then asked him for all the shoes that the family would be wearing to the funeral. He then sat down on the porch with a shoe-polishing kit that he had brought with him and with “empathy” motivated by love and grief polished all their shoes. He left them by the backdoor and quietly left.

    Would Rigney and Wilson do this? Would they even think to?

  56. Max: Their inner man does not bear witness to such love.

    By observation, it seems relationships are transactional not unconditional. It’s self love, as in what do I get out of this. Marriage, family, church, work, and community so I look good. So I please myself. Those plundered at the side of the road? Walk on by. Unless a camera crew shows up.

  57. What did I miss? I followed the link and read “The Empathy Wars” and am not finding what many are finding. I am not finding the calvinistas saying all empathy is wrong. What I am finding is that it CAN be wrong, or a sin, or downright empty headed if it does not stay anchored in objective reality.

    Sort of like something we experienced in the 4 corners region: generations of alcoholism have produced many with FAS. I know, I adopted and raised one. It means a whole lot of people with a genetic propensity for addiction. Should we have sympathy for them? Absolutely!!!!!

    But when the local judges in our area had EMPATHY to an extreme degree, they would state openly that “Who cannot imagine themselves getting a dui? A repeat one? A twelfth one?” They would then base their sentence NOT on empathy with the family who lost loved ones due to the drunk driving of someone with 12 dui convictions still out of jail and driving BUT on empathy with the drunk driver.

    That sort of “empathy” would be, and was, in my never humble opinion, sheer nonsense and yes, sin.

    Or as our pastor at the time colorfully put it: suppose you came up on someone literally drowning in a back yard cesspool. Would you have sympathy and race to get them a ladder, or a rope, or the equipment so you could jump in and save them and then climb out? That is good, that is Christian, that is never sin. But if you just jump in and proceed to wallow in the muck with them without trying to get them out, that particular sort of empathy is just stinking stupid and would be sin.

    My reading of the articles referenced is that we SHOULD care, we should feel, we should of course feel normal human sympathy. What we are not to do is to so “feel with” that we lose sight of reality.

    That way we can see someone did not choose what sin they are tempted by, and may be living a nightmare battling it. We can sympathize and help all we can WITHOUT being so soft hearted that either we get caught up in it or decide “it really isn’t sin” after all rather than hurt their feelings.

  58. Ava Aaronson: It’s self love

    There is an epidemic of self-love, self-centeredness, and self-importance within New Calvinism. But this is not confined to the pulpit only; pew-members of the cult also demonstrate this. We have neighbors who were drawn into the snare of a local New Calvinist church – an SBC traditional church that was taken over by a NeoCal pastor through stealth and deception. Our neighbors have become aloof and distant … I suppose believing that they have been chosen before the foundation of the world and have no time for those who aren’t the predestined-elect in their neighborhood. The rest of us are getting along just fine without their friendship. I asked another New Calvinist pastor why members of his church were so unfriendly. He said “They aren’t unfriendly, just shy.” I replied “No, they are unfriendly.”

  59. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    “If I did not know better, I would suggest that Calvinism started as satire, and no one got the joke. And once it got out, it could not be put back into the bag…”
    ++++++++++++++++

    wow! what a great premise for story!

  60. Max,

    “then asked him for all the shoes that the family would be wearing to the funeral. He then sat down on the porch with a shoe-polishing kit that he had brought with him”
    +++++++++++++++

    this is so lovely.

  61. Max: Our neighbors have become aloof and distant … I suppose believing that they have been chosen before the foundation of the world and have no time for those who aren’t the predestined-elect in their neighborhood.

    Never underestimate the arrogance of Gawd’s Speshul Pets.

    “WE THANK THEE, LOOOOOOOORD, THAT WE ARE NOTHING LIKE ALL THOSE FILTHY REPROBATES OVER THERE…”

  62. Max: The vast majority of Christendom worldwide have rejected the tenets of reformed theology for 500+ years.

    TO which The Reformed respond with “Everyone’s Out of Step Except My Little Precious Johnny”.

    With quotes from the Bible or Calvin’s Institutes for Proof Text Justification.

  63. Ken F (aka Tweed): If I did not know better, I would suggest that Calvinism started as satire, and no one got the joke.

    Like Rosicrucianism or late-Elron-period Scientology?

    P.S. The mentality of The True Believer is incapable of getting a joke.

  64. Cynthia W.:
    “Year by year I looked upon their futures with glad trust that God would use them mightily for his glory through Bethlehem College & Seminary.”

    Woo-hoo.But seriously, who talks like this in real life?

    Someone who is deeply madly in love with the sound of their own voice and “see how clever I am?” with their words.

    We had a fanboy like this in local media SF & Furry Fandom. A legend in his own mind, a running bad joke to everyone else. His name even became a verb meaning “to get cornered by a motormouth who cannot stop talking about himself.”

  65. Abigail:
    There is a connection here…follow the reasoning. If Wilson is Calvinistic in his (warped) theology then to show empathy over something God allowed/ordained is to be critical of God himself. This would lead to becoming emotionally and theolgically dead to the pain of others.

    Nowhere do we corrupt so effectively as at the very foof of The Enemy’s Altar, My Dear Wormwood.

  66. Ava Aaronson,

    Another excellent summary…..
    I am confused, where is the stuff about “church membership” and “guys holding the keys”… ( sarcasm)
    but of course, we “bloggers” are just a bunch of children of stan…

  67. linda,

    1 Peter 1 addresses the differentiation of calamity we bring on ourselves as a consequence of personal willful choice vs bad stuff happens to good people.

    “If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.”

    The Good Samaritan stopped to help the plundered guy though they had no connection. There was nothing hierarchical or transactional or publicity conscious about it. He did the right thing, unto God.

    The semantics of this empathy vs sympathy game is cover for simply walking on by; it’s an extension of the emphasis on, and semantics of, God’s pre-selection of who gets to be saved by “grace”. When they mention hierarchy, these two theocrats blow their cover. Power is the underlying foundation.

  68. R:
    We all do plenty of actual sinning that we need to confess. Why do they feel like they have to make up new sins?

    More Totally Depraved Than Thou One-Upmanship?

    In old New England Puritan Journals, the number-one subject is obsessive navel-gazing sin-sniffing.

  69. elastigirl:
    Max,

    “then asked him for all the shoes that the family would be wearing to the funeral. He then sat down on the porch with a shoe-polishing kit that he had brought with him”
    +++++++++++++++

    this is so lovely.

    And done by ACTIONS instead of words.
    That’s the part that stands out to me.

  70. Muff Potter: Mr. Jesperson: Another child molester arrested. This one claiming to be an “Apostle:”

    Doesn’t Mahaney claim to be an apostle too?

    Not just a mere “Apostle”.
    “HEAD Apostle of The People of Destiny.” (chuckle chuckle)
    Now doesn’t that self-title just drip Arrogance and Ego?

    “If you come across a preacher who has titled himself ‘Apostle’ or ‘Prophet’, RUN!”

  71. Mr. Jesperson: Another child molester arrested. This one claiming to be an “Apostle:”

    He can take a number and stand in like with all the other pedo clergy…

  72. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    That reminds me of some teenaged science nerds I know. I figure they’ll grow out of it, especially if a few people kindly say, “You’re being a real bore, you know.”

  73. Cynthia W.:
    “Year by year I looked upon their futures with glad trust that God would use them mightily for his glory through Bethlehem College & Seminary.”

    Woo-hoo.But seriously, who talks like this in real life?

    Someone who is deeply madly in love with the sound of their own voice and “see how clever I am?” with their words.

    We had a fanboy like this in local media SF & Furry Fandom. A legend in his own mind, a running bad joke to everyone else. His name even became a verb meaning “to get cornered by a motormouth who cannot stop talking about himself.”

    Michael in UK: One R Mouw stated Piper’s view is in the J S Mill / Bentham mould. According to Copleston, J S Mill saw belief in a finite “god” as socially useful.

    Like Citizen Robespierre’s Cult of The Supreme Being?

  74. elastigirl: what a great premise for story!

    GK Chesterton wrote a book like this called “The Man Who Was Thursday.” It was about a detective who, in trying to break up a secret anarchist group, got elected as one of the seven leaders of the group, only to find out five of the others were also detectives who were faking it like he was, and the only non-detective was also an anti-anarchist.

  75. Ava Aaronson: Which is why I would wonder why anyone would “really need to read Edwards”. IAC, there are preacher-quoters of Edwards aplenty, as well as of Calvin.

    The common retort when flaws of famous figures are exposed is to minimize the flaws because they were just men of their time. If true, it means their teachings should be disregarded because they belong to another time.

  76. Muff Potter: The smart ones (Jews) liquidated their assets early and got out of Europe early.

    More than a few wound up in the Southeast corner of Wisconsin (town of Racine) where I grew up.

  77. Headless Unicorn Guy: Now doesn’t that self-title just drip Arrogance and Ego?

    Which is what qualified him to have written the highly acclaimed (among new-calvinists) book “Humility: True Greatness.”

  78. It’s my understanding that empathy has a biological basis in brain structure: the mirror system. Granting the validity of that proposition about the organization of the human brain, it seems kind of weird to regard this common aspect of human brain function to be intrinsically sinful — perhaps a better theological “take” would be to regard it to be part of “the image of God.” In my view, empathy propels people toward sufferers for the sake of helping them, which ministers both to the sufferer and to the helper, who inwardly experiences the suffering and whose experience of that suffering is palliated by the alleviation of the original sufferer’s suffering. Of course, this calls for wisdom; one can imagine circumstances in which empathetic helping could enable people to persist in unwise life patterns.

    I have doubts about whether the critics of empathy understand the phenomenon. Given that empathy is a feature of brain function, and brain function is biology and is variable from person to person, it’s tempting to suspect that these critics might be on the end of the spectrum of brain function that is weaker in terms of the strength of the mirror system. Perhaps they have little empathy for the empathetic because, perhaps, empathy itself is alien to them.

    I suppose that in people who do not have a highly active mirror system, they might still be propelled toward sufferers by a strong sense of law obligation — “love thy neighbor as thyself”. And that would be useful (in analogy to the way that strong external constraints can — per Martha Stout in “the Sociopath Next Door” — compensate somewhat for deficient conscience in people with sociopathic personalities). But it seems to me that empathy is also very useful, and I would not want to live in a society of people all of whom lacked this capacity.

  79. linda,

    While I see Linda’s point, the track record of Doug Wilson speaks otherwise. As Max likes to say, so many of the subjects of TWW seem to ignore the words of JC… and focus on their “home boy” Calvin, and their living “saints”… to me, the words of JC, with respect how we should act and treat others are so CONVICTING it is no wonder “they” ignore JC’s words..

  80. Samuel Conner: “love thy neighbor as thyself”

    I’ll add that the existence of the mirror system and its involvement in the phenomenon of empathy and the helping behavior toward sufferers that empathy motivates could be regarded to be evidence that humans are designed at the level of brain structure to be well fitted to “love neighbor as self”.

  81. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    “And done by ACTIONS instead of words.
    That’s the part that stands out to me.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    minus any grandstanding whatsoever. he himself mattered not in the equation.

    (“He went to the backdoor through their screened porch, knocked,…”)
    Max,

  82. Samuel Conner: the mirror system

    This does sound like “Love your neighbor as yourself”. 3 notes:

    1. With “Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength” as the 1st commandment, we are guided by God’s Holy Spirit to do the 2nd in a healthy way for both neighbor and self. Sometimes it’s tough love for our neighbor.

    2. The Empathy is Sin** folks maintaining their hierarchy would not mirror or practice “neighbor as self”. Rigney says the needy are the “lowest common denominator”* in any social group.

    3. Because everything is transactional or what-will-I-gain-from-this-now, these EIS** folks see needy* as lowest. Jesus said to give & invite, while expecting nothing in return, no PR, no payback. If Dee Parsons lived this mantra, there would be no TWW. Jesus said God will someday reward us in the City that is to come, the City of Hebrews 11, the Hall of Faith chapter. This makes EIS** also a Faith is sin practice. Nope. Wrong. As all the lives in Hebrews point out, faith is not transactional in this world, only in the long haul. Faith and Holy Spirit-guided empathy are the long view for the future when Jesus separates the sheep and the goats.

  83. Samuel Conner: empathy is a feature of brain function … variable from person to person … might be on the end of the spectrum of brain function that is weaker

    And they all end up as New Calvinists?

  84. Jeffrey Chalmers: As Max likes to say, so many of the subjects of TWW seem to ignore the words of JC… and focus on their “home boy” Calvin, and their living “saints”…

    Because Homeboy Calvin and their Saints Come In The Flesh — they and they alone Have God All Figured Out.

  85. Ken F (aka Tweed): Which is what qualified him to have written the highly acclaimed (among new-calvinists) book “Humility: True Greatness.”

    Make that “HUMBLE Arrogance and Ego”. Better?
    HUMBLY proclaiming himself “Head Apostle”.

  86. Ken F (aka Tweed): GK Chesterton wrote a book like this called “The Man Who Was Thursday.” It was about a detective who, in trying to break up a secret anarchist group, got elected as one of the seven leaders of the group, only to find out five of the others were also detectives who were faking it like he was, and the only non-detective was also an anti-anarchist.

    Which I understand happened for real during the death throes of the Third Klan. There were Klaverns where everyone in the Klavern was an FBI informant.

  87. Max: Depends on which JC they are listening to … Jesus Christ or John Calvin.

    Beware of the religious leader who, when he doesn’t get the results he wants ($$$, following, PR), he diverges from the straight and narrow.

    Above I posted a link of a FB page that tracks this with Wilson. Lies, plagiarism, tax fraud, predator pals. Nothing clean and shiny. Read the documentation then take a shower.

    Another reason not to read the bios of Calvin & Edwards, more showers. What’s said, not so much. What’s lived is the real story. Track record, as Jeffrey Chalmers notes, above.

    OTOH, George Muller, Gladys Aylward and the ten Booms’ legacies stand the test of time. They sheltered orphans & Holocaust survivors. Pure empathy backed by action.

  88. Max: The end result of New Calvinism is madness. One cannot continually feed on such aberrations of faith without losing their minds after a while.

    That sparkling gleam in their eyes is Madness, not The Holy Spirit.

  89. Max: Without empathy driven by love, these men cannot be disciples of Christ. By their words, they demonstrate no understanding and awareness in their inner man about the feelings of others.

    Instead, they deomonstrate their own RIGHTeousness as The Predestined Elect.

    New Calvinism… Where will this madness end?”

    “IN FIRE.”
    — Vorlon Ambassador Kosh, Babylon-5

  90. Michael in UK: From both Piper and Swinburne an impersonal and too small god needs “sugar” coating. Hence these have been melded with emotionalised Saivite-like mysticism to form the atmosphere “emanating” from Oxford.

    Which would probably be laughed at by the REAL Oxonians.

    Drooling Fanboy Cosplay – “If I dress and talk like one, Then I Must Be One!”

  91. Ava Aaronson: Notably on a video posted above, Rigney claims that the person in need is the lowest common denominator in a group, therefore one would not want to empathize or sink that low with them.

    Herrenvolk cannot risk being contaiminated by Untermenschen.

  92. Headless Unicorn Guy: That sparkling gleam in their eyes is Madness, not The Holy Spirit.

    Notably in the Piper vid in this post. Also, drooling* over one of his fanboyz**.

    *drooling mentioned in your other comment.

    **they all find each other, with their adoration for sexual predators, slave plantation owners, and rapist-talk. Sick. There’s $$$ in this gig, which means the boyz have their Old Lady partners/enablers. The pew sitters $upporting? What’s not to like about a carnival? Sunday morning rallies & Friday night potlucks. Gather. The Predestined, I’ll-just-take-care-of-me crowd. Finding each other.

  93. Ava Aaronson: This very “teaching” of empathy as sin is a landing place for pure evil.

    “I Am Made of Steel — NO Sentiment –”
    — neo-Nazi cult leader, “He’s Alive”, The Twilight Zone, 1963

  94. Samuel Conner: It’s my understanding that empathy has a biological basis in brain structure: the mirror system. Granting the validity of that proposition about the organization of the human brain, it seems kind of weird to regard this common aspect of human brain function to be intrinsically sinful

    Not weird at all, and here’s a one-verse shutdown for any form of biological mechanism:

    “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”
    — Romans 7:18 —

    Again, one of the most used and abused lines of Scripture in all of fundagelicalism.

  95. Ken F (aka Tweed): This made wonder how much Wilson is impacted by the teachings of Jonathan Edwards. The top two search results are a couple of his blog posts from Sept 2019 defending Edwards’ purchase and ownership of slaves. Apparently, there is a right way and a wrong way to own slaves.

    Jonathan Edwards (the younger) (why yes, the son of Jonathan Edwards) was one of the first people outside of the Quakers to write about how slavery and the slave trade were wrong and should be abolished.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Edwards_(the_younger)

    And there’s no right way to enslave people. Nope, nope, nope, nopity, NOPE.

  96. elastigirl: (“He went to the backdoor through their screened porch, knocked,…”)

    This also signifies not doing the service to be seen. Service without wanting to be seen, which is true service.

  97. Ava Aaronson: Read the documentation then take a shower.

    Regular readers of TWW take showers often … it’s just one slimy story after another. The ails of New Calvinism make you feel particularly dirty. For the life of me, I can’t see why otherwise good people follow leaders like Piper, Wilson, Rigney and other NeoCal elite. They must be under a spell.

  98. Max: For the life of me, I can’t see why otherwise good people follow leaders like Piper, Wilson, Rigney and other NeoCal elite. They must be under a spell.

    Not too long ago I got this reply to a similar comment I had made:
    “You seem to be assuming Calvinists espouse Calvinism because they think it makes sense. Most Calvinists I know seem to espouse Calvinism precisely because it does NOT make sense — something along the lines of ‘I don’t understand it, I can’t explain it, it makes people angry, it makes me feel bad, and it’s harsh; therefore it must be true.'”

  99. Wild Honey,

    One wonders whether skeptics of the validity of empathy are actually able to “rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep”, or whether they have to pretend-act when in such circumstances. I suppose it’s possible to do that, perhaps even a technical skill that could be learned; we’ve seen stories of preachers who can weep on cue when it’s needed in a sermon. The tears are real, but there may not be much reality on the inside.

  100. Ken F (aka Tweed): Not too long ago I got this reply to a similar comment I had made:
    “You seem to be assuming Calvinists espouse Calvinism because they think it makes sense. Most Calvinists I know seem to espouse Calvinism precisely because it does NOT make sense — something along the lines of ‘I don’t understand it, I can’t explain it, it makes people angry, it makes me feel bad, and it’s harsh; therefore it must be true.’”

    Sounds like they are as confused with their religion as a termite in a yo-yo.

  101. Samuel Conner: One wonders whether skeptics of the validity of empathy are actually able to “rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep”, or whether they have to pretend-act when in such circumstances.

    Beware of preachers who cry without tears.

  102. linda: But when the local judges in our area had EMPATHY to an extreme degree, they would state openly that “Who cannot imagine themselves getting a dui? A repeat one? A twelfth one?” They would then base their sentence NOT on empathy with the family who lost loved ones due to the drunk driving of someone with 12 dui convictions still out of jail and driving BUT on empathy with the drunk driver.

    That sort of “empathy” would be, and was, in my never humble opinion, sheer nonsense and yes, sin.

    Or as our pastor at the time colorfully put it: suppose you came up on someone literally drowning in a back yard cesspool. Would you have sympathy and race to get them a ladder, or a rope, or the equipment so you could jump in and save them and then climb out? That is good, that is Christian, that is never sin. But if you just jump in and proceed to wallow in the muck with them without trying to get them out, that particular sort of empathy is just stinking stupid and would be sin.

    My reading of the articles referenced is that we SHOULD care, we should feel, we should of course feel normal human sympathy. What we are not to do is to so “feel with” that we lose sight of reality.

    That way we can see someone did not choose what sin they are tempted by, and may be living a nightmare battling it. We can sympathize and help all we can WITHOUT being so soft hearted that either we get caught up in it or decide “it really isn’t sin” after all rather than hurt their feelings.

    Just a thought, as I’ve been pondering the situations you describe. Perhaps they could be more accurately described as “enabling,” instead of “empathetic?”

    I think one can empathize with another’s struggles, while still putting boundaries/parameters around acceptable behavior. But being overly permissive, particularly to the point where innocent people are hurt as an effect, I would call “enabling,” not “empathetic.”

  103. Max,

    to be sure; I also worry about performative tears that are not an expression of genuine inward mourning. I worry about the possibility that critics of empathy don’t actually understand what it is; perhaps they don’t experience it, and when they weep with those who weep, it is merely performative obedience to a command.

  104. Muff Potter,

    It’s been too long since my days at the (now defunct) church that thought everyone should have the equivalent of a seminary education… Wouldn’t that be Gnosticism?

  105. Wild Honey: I think one can empathize with another’s struggles, while still putting boundaries/parameters around acceptable behavior. But being overly permissive, particularly to the point where innocent people are hurt as an effect, I would call “enabling,” not “empathetic.”

    Makes sense.

  106. Samuel Conner: critics of empathy don’t actually understand what it is

    A “pastor” who criticizes empathy is not a pastor. A true pastor “mourns with those who mourn.” If a shepherd does not have the capacity to grieve with those he leads, he is not truly called to that sacred office.

  107. I don’t think ’empathy’ in the sense of humane compassion for people who are suffering (innocent people) can be put in the same class as the sickening practice of ‘enabling’ destructive and negative behaviors, no. Enablers are often as disfunctional as the ones they enable.

    I do agree with Samuel Conner, this: “critics of empathy don’t actually understand what it is”

  108. Max: A “pastor” who criticizes empathy is not a pastor.A true pastor “mourns with those who mourn.”If a shepherd does not have the capacity to grieve with those he leads, he is not truly called to that sacred office.

    This is the Holy Jerk with his pet Kirk in Moscow Idaho.
    Pope of the Payuse, would-be Rajneeshee.
    Does this really surprise anyone?

  109. Max: Beware of preachers who cry without tears.

    Or cry on cue at the same point in the Sincere Sermon.

    I’ve seen sociopaths turn the tears and remorse on and off like a light switch.

  110. Ken F (aka Tweed): “You seem to be assuming Calvinists espouse Calvinism because they think it makes sense. Most Calvinists I know seem to espouse Calvinism precisely because it does NOT make sense — something along the lines of ‘I don’t understand it, I can’t explain it, it makes people angry, it makes me feel bad, and it’s harsh; therefore it must be true.’”

    The less it makes sense, the more destructive the side effects, the more TRVE and Godly It Must Be.
    The more it conflicts with reality, the more TRVE and Godly it must be.
    A variant of Holy Nincompoop Syndrome, where the more stupid and ignorant you are the more Godly you must be.
    Great. Just great.

  111. TWW as the new vanguard for empathy? Its not only critics of empathy who “don’t understand what it is,” methinks.

  112. Max: For the life of me, I can’t see why otherwise good people follow leaders like Piper, Wilson, Rigney and other NeoCal elite. They must be under a spell.

    Remember all those Christian Apocalyptic End Times Fiction and Movies?

    Well, this is the effect they’re trying to achieve (and usually failing) with fictional Antichrist after Antichrist. “Strong Delusion That They Shall Believe a Lie.” NOt only believe the Big Lie, but cheer “THE VOICE OF A GOD, NOT OF A MAN!”

  113. elastigirl: instead of being a sniper, why not just explain your perspective?

    Ever noticed they never do?
    It’s always just one round squeezed off into the crowd.

  114. elastigirl: “wandering around Moscow wearing bowler hats, black robes, and sporting canes …Doug Phillips who also used to play dress-up?

    Oxford dons do not wear bowlers.

    Oxford dons wear the appropriate academic hat, some version of what Americans call the mortar board.

    At Oxford, bowlers are traditionally (now formerly) worn by “bulldogs” (campus police) and examination proctors. In days of yore, if students were getting up to mischief, they would flee at the sight of a bowler.

    https://oxfordhistoryreview.co.uk/oxford-bulldogs-bark-worse-than-their-bite

    The bowler is/was also associated with men of the London financial district, but that is a different place and job.

    If they are pairing the bowler with an umbrella, they can only be imitating John Steed in “The Avengers.”

    These guys in Idaho are incompetent.

  115. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Yup…. flee all that “human, secular learning”… or “man’s wisdom”… I have heard it used multiple times to justify one anti-science beliefs… then of course, it even makes more sense to use it justify your theology….

  116. Friend,

    “If they are pairing the bowler with an umbrella, they can only be imitating John Steed in “The Avengers.””
    ++++++++++++++

    and when not, it’s Curly from The Three Stooges.

  117. elastigirl:
    Wes,

    instead of being a sniper, why not just explain your perspective?

    By request, I shall do so. Empathy on TWW flows in a reflexively binary manner: the accused wrongdoer is fully bad, their motives unequivocally evil, their person and associates unworthy of empathy; the person wronged is fully good, their motives unequivocally pure, their person and associates showered with empathy.

    As a criminal prosecutor for more than 20 years, my experience is that in the great majority of cases accused wrongdoers are not fully evil monsters, and victims/complaining witnesses are seldom saints. The reality is, both sides of a civil and criminal conflict are usually flawed human beings whose lives have been turned upside down; often they’ve both made bad decisions that led to the specific conflict before a tribunal. That’s why civil and criminal processes adjudicate legal conflicts under rules of procedure and evidentiary standards… they judge a case, not the goodness or badness of the people involved in the case.

    My view is that TWW and its readers’ emotional responses to the matters reported here are commonly not terribly well informed… quick to judge the accused on an ad hominem basis, slow to “love their enemy.” This is not to offer a defense of those misdeeds reported here: I’m speaking of attitudes and how these matters are discussed.

    Obviously just my own views: yours may vary.

  118. Muff Potter: It’s always just one round squeezed off into the crowd.

    The Piperites communicate in one-liners … something they learned from Pied Piper tweets. An example of a recent Piper one-liner:

    “The fundamental change in your new nature is freedom from deceptive desires.”

    He needs to keep repeating that until the army of Piperites taking over churches by stealth and deception hear it!

  119. Wes: My view is that TWW and its readers’ emotional responses to the matters reported here are commonly not terribly well informed… quick to judge the accused on an ad hominem basis, slow to “love their enemy.” This is not to offer a defense of those misdeeds reported here: I’m speaking of attitudes and how these matters are discussed.

    Obviously just my own views: yours may vary.

    It does sometimes happen that I believe TWW when it is one of few sources about misdeeds in a church.

    Please look at this from the other side, though. Alleged victims have a hard time getting their message out. Meanwhile the alleged villains are usually surrounded by layers of protection: official statements, NDAs, membership covenants, customs of shunning and harassment, other pastors, elders, lawyers, associates, the church’s private police force, publishers, et al. And that’s just among evangelicals and fundamentalists.

    It took a lot of doing for a worldwide network of criminal sexual abuse in the Roman Catholic Church to be exposed. As you may recall, even when the Boston Globe began publishing the Spotlight series, the victims who came forward were reviled, detested, mocked, condemned, and of course accused of lying, just to bring down dear old Father Tony, and get 15 minutes of fame and a payday.

    I was victimized as a youth group member. Looking back, I can now finally see how vulnerable I was, how easy for a predator to identify. I also lacked credibility, if only because of my teenage wardrobe. My assailant could easily have said I wanted his attention.

  120. Friend: Please look at this from the other side, though. Alleged victims have a hard time getting their message out. Meanwhile the alleged villains are usually surrounded by layers of protection: official statements, NDAs, membership covenants, customs of shunning and harassment, other pastors, elders, lawyers, associates, the church’s private police force, publishers, et al. And that’s just among evangelicals and fundamentalists.

    Also, a lot of the people reported on here say awful things on a regular basis. And that is deemed normal and Christian-like by their followers. But if anyone says anything critical of them, no matter how gently, they are often accused of being terrible people, anti-Christian, and worse.

    I personally no longer care what people think is a “Christian” tone, because often, they make that dependent on who is talking. And I think a lot of people expect others to be “nice” in only the way they define, but they don’t hold themselves or their favored idols to the same standard.

    I also don’t think that someone’s tone online can be a consistent judge of empathy. That feels like a strawman to me.

  121. Wes: quick to judge the accused

    TWW has a long history with folks like Wilson and the New Calvinist movement he represents. Some of the Wartburgers have been negatively impacted through such ministries and comment from direct experience. There was nothing “quick” about this piece. It’s just another chapter in a long book about bad actors taking advantage of the American church. It’s hard to either sympathize or empathize with them considering the damage they have done.

  122. ishy: I think a lot of people expect others to be “nice” in only the way they define, but they don’t hold themselves or their favored idols to the same standard

    Worth repeating … so I just did.

    It’s the old “When you point a finger, there are three pointing back at you.”

    Only a Rigneyite, Wilsonite, or a Piperite would be critical of this blog topic and the comments posted.

  123. Wes,

    Posts: Trail. Pattern. Legacy. Links, vids & such. Personal testimony. Public record. Information. Informed. Comments.

    “Spotlight” began with one story, then uncovered LE, DOJ, predator collusion. TWW seems to expose what may look like a feature but may actually be a bug.

    In regard to this post? Here’s a trail, pattern, legacy, timeline of public record:
    https://www.facebook.com/ExaminingMoscow/

    LE & DOJ, when they do their job, look for same: patterns of behavior & establishing public record, while assessing public safety in regard to an offender.

    No one is completely good or evil. True. However, society must assess what is overlookable & what’s a deal-breaker. You are new in these parts? Welcome. However, sin leveling has also been discussed at length here at TWW.

  124. Max: They must be under a spell.

    TWW presents an opportunity (thanks, Dee!) for Christians to interact & engage outside a spell*: sharing personal experience, testimony of self & others, public record, vids, books, links, observation, perspective, POV, dot connecting, Bible verses outside the box of the latest leaders, quips, quotes, & yes, a recipe here and there. On the variety of topics that Dee, Todd, and guests cover here at TWW.

    *charismatic, authoritarian, cult, personality, skinny & swank, NPD, “Gospel”, academic, elitist

  125. Ava Aaronson,

    We also present Bible passages that directly confront the comments and behaviors of these “biblical leaders”… in many ways that is what bothers me the most…. These clowns claim how “biblical or gospel lyrics” they are….

  126. Jeffrey Chalmers: We also present Bible passages that directly confront the comments and behaviors of these “biblical leaders”…

    Yes. Which completely flies in the face of TWW commentors being portrayed as histrionic or uninformed or without evidence. Quite the opposite. It’s the disconnect of some leaders that begs to be exposed. Sorry, not sorry.

    That FB page of public record noted above speaks. So does the database of the Houston Chronicle in their “Abuse of Faith” series.

  127. Ava Aaronson: society must assess what is overlookable & what’s a deal-breaker

    If only the pew would do that more often … they are giving the pulpit in many places way too much wiggle room. New Calvinism should have been declared a “deal-breaker” years ago by the greater Body of Christ, not allowing them anymore room to indoctrinate minds with aberrant belief and practice. Piper should have never been “overlookable.”

  128. Ava Aaronson: TWW commentors being portrayed as histrionic or uninformed or without evidence

    The personal testimonies of Wartburgers who have been through the fire are not open to debate.

  129. linda,

    I read in The Metaphysical Club by Louis Menand that O W Holmes promoted judge practices according to whim and “convenience”. When a country or religion has no principles, it swings from extreme to extreme to extreme. Didn’t Twain (one of my top authors) depict this both before and after the Civil War?

  130. Max: personal testimonies

    From 1 John: “We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard…”

    A witness is evidence.

    Of course, others assess the validity of the hearsay, the witness’ testimony. And yes, one should assess leaders and their schtick, talk, testimony.

    A prosecuting attorney (male) replied to Rachel Denhollander on Twitter that he has seen pastors ALWAYS on the side of predators, but NEVER supporting victims. Not even once.

    More attorneys (mainly male) weighed in with the same observation.

    NT disciples proclaimed what they had seen and heard. The woman who saw Jesus alive after crucifixion also proclaimed what she had seen and heard. We assess.

  131. Wild Honey:
    Ken F (aka Tweed),

    That’s certainly one way for Piper to absolve himself (and other believers) of responsibility in caring for one another, should anyone ask. “Jesus is all you need; why should I help?”

    Doesn’t really square with any other number of verses regarding loving one’s neighbor, bearing one another’s burdens, etc., does it?

    Matthew 25: 31-46, anyone?

  132. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    I’ve not asked any of them, but is White Mountain to them like 1389 was to some of the Serbians? The New Frontiers (Virgoist) version of Calvinism (their own name for their beliefs) talks a lot about setting up the kingdom of this world.

  133. Wes,

    “Empathy on TWW flows in a reflexively binary manner: the accused wrongdoer is fully bad, their motives unequivocally evil, their person and associates unworthy of empathy; the person wronged is fully good, their motives unequivocally pure, their person and associates showered with empathy.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    thank you for your response.

    no one is wholly bad. certainly no one is wholly good. i’m sure this is not lost on anyone here.

    even so, why shouldn’t the collective empathetic response be allowed to naturally flow toward the hurting person, while making disapproval of the perpetrator and disdain for his/her actions clear?

    i imagine it goes without saying that church culture imbues its leaders with the weightier portion of the benefit of favor, credibility, and trust regardless of how earned or warranted.

    in the circumstances discussed here, truly the church institution and its leaders are Goliath.

    seems appropriate to me for a group of others to rally alongside the hurting one who has no power and no voice, and to make a collective loud sound and growing, “We are here! We are here! We are here!”.

    like the Whos of Whoville and the young twerp Jo-Jo adding his final breakthrough “Yopp!”
    .
    .
    tww is also a camp in the wilderness which many whose lives have been destroyed by degrees by the church institution have ended up.

    trauma takes years to work through. sometimes there is no one to talk to about these things except for friends at tww.

    the subject matter is triggers strong responses.

    it deserves strong responses.

    especially in the oxygen-depleted happy-go-lucky bubble of passive christian compliance.

  134. Wes,

    “My view is that TWW and its readers’ emotional responses to the matters reported here are commonly not terribly well informed… quick to judge the accused on an ad hominem basis, slow to “love their enemy.””
    ++++++++++++++++

    ‘not terribly well-informed’…. like any group, each individual has a unique spectrum of informed understanding.

    i could argue the pants off you on certain topics.

    but tell us what you had in mind.

  135. Headless Unicorn Guy: The less it makes sense, the more destructive the side effects, the more TRVE and Godly It Must Be.
    The more it conflicts with reality, the more TRVE and Godly it must be.

    In other words, “We’re not happy ’till you’re not happy.”

  136. Wes: The reality is, both sides of a civil and criminal conflict are usually flawed human beings whose lives have been turned upside down; often they’ve both made bad decisions that led to the specific conflict before a tribunal.

    Actually, there’s no midpoint between a firefighter and an arsonist. Predators & children? Nowhere to meet halfway.

  137. Ava Aaronson,

    Nor is there for Preacher boys like Driscoll, Hybels, and James McDonald. When a person “claims” leadership, like these “individuals”, there are “standards”…. these guys, and many other discussed on TWW fail those standards, period

  138. Wes: Empathy on TWW flows in a reflexively binary manner: the accused wrongdoer is fully bad, their motives unequivocally evil, their person and associates unworthy of empathy; the person wronged is fully good, their motives unequivocally pure, their person and associates showered with empathy.

    It seems you might be doing here what you accuse others of doing – removing all options but the extremes. Projection? That said, TWW pretty much highlights extreme cases that have already caused extreme damage and often involve extreme obfuscation, denials, and gaslighting. So the sample population needs to be taken into account.

  139. Ava Aaronson: NT disciples proclaimed what they had seen and heard. The woman who saw Jesus alive after crucifixion also proclaimed what she had seen and heard.

    The blind man told the Pharisees what he had experienced when Jesus healed him. His testimony was simple “I was blind and now I see.” They threw him out of church. Jesus went looking for him.

  140. elastigirl: trauma takes years to work through. sometimes there is no one to talk to about these things except for friends at tww.

    Fully agreed. I want to add that surviving trauma does not necessarily mean that a person is insane, or that their story is inaccurate.

  141. Max: The blind man told the Pharisees what he had experienced when Jesus healed him. His testimony was simple “I was blind and now I see.” They threw him out of church. Jesus went looking for him.

    “They threw him out of church.” The guy Jesus healed!!! Good grief, Charlie Brown. “They” would be the esteemed religious leaders of Jesus’ day. Guess who running to be in the goat crowd on The Great Day.

  142. Ava Aaronson: Actually, there’s no midpoint between a firefighter and an arsonist. Predators & children? Nowhere to meet halfway.

    I understand what you are saying, but arsonists sometimes join fire departments so they can be around fire; and firefighters who started the job with good intentions do sometimes decide to start setting fires. They can be both hero and villain.

    Likewise, some abuse victims go on to abuse others. They can be both victim and villain.

    Yes, the villainy completely outweighs whatever good they did. They cannot be trusted with opportunities to do more evil. Treatment might be an excellent idea, though.

  143. Max,

    OT: so, Max, I’ve always wondered what it meant when you write that the Neo-Cals are not particularly fond of Jesus.

    Then today on twitter, someone self-described as “Samuel Perry @socofthesacred Sociologist | Author | Studying religion and power” posted lovely pics of visiting the Grand Canyon so I looked at his tweets where he lists 10 flags flying high of the “CN” crowd. Banner #3 is:

    “3. CONTEMPT FOR THE CROSS
    Christians don’t take up their cross in #ChristianNationalism. Because real Christians don’t lose in this life. They win. Laying down one’s rights for one’s enemies is like surrendering. It’s un-American; for losers. Therefore it’s also unChristian.”

    Now, this guy aside, I personally don’t think Jesus called us to be doormats. OTOH, there are times to not have to be the greatest & best & life of the party, king of the hill, type. Mutual respect would seem more sensible.

    So, I’m starting to get the picture. I grew up in youth groups where the hot guys & gals with all the $$$ & good looks & big names & attention (Bill Hybel-esque type A’s or NPD) were paraded as our models to emulate.

    That’s not Jesus.

  144. Friend,

    i think surviving trauma is the definition of being an adult. many things that seem generically right-of-passage-ish are often quite traumatic. and certainly some things are exponentially more traumatic than others.

    these things have a way of turning us from a potato just sitting there to a diamond. the facets are hard-won, expensive, of great value.

    surviving, as i see it, is depth of understanding, awareness, and credibility.

  145. Friend: I understand what you are saying, but arsonists sometimes join fire departments so they can be around fire; and firefighters who started the job with good intentions do sometimes decide to start setting fires. They can be both hero and villain.

    I don’t think we have the same POV here or understanding.

    “… be around fire” to save lives or destroy lives? Or build a campfire?
    … weld a pipe… torch crème brûlée. Fire is not the issue. What one does with fire is. Intent & desired outcome.

    A predator working with children so they can be around children?
    Sex offenders have to register for a reason.

    Arson is a line crossed, not by accident. Same with predation of children; never an “organic” moment when “things went too far”.

    We may have to agree to disagree. That being stated, the fact that sex offenders register in a community (even as Jesus forgives the truly repentant who demonstrate fruit – payback – for all destruction they caused) – I think this public registration is excellent. Anyway, it’s the law.

  146. Ava Aaronson: were paraded as our models to emulate.

    I think it’s not unusual to embrace Jesus as “savior” while fleeing from him as “example.”

    1 John 3:16 comes to mind, the “other Jn 3:16” that is rarely quoted.

  147. Catholic Gate-Crasher: Matthew 25: 31-46, anyone?

    In their belief system Paul and Calvin are the platinum standards.
    Jesus plays second fiddle.
    The likelihood is large that they’d come up with something like this:

    “Jesus is addressing the Jews of the old covenant, not present-day Christians.”

  148. elastigirl: i think surviving trauma is the definition of being an adult.

    Completely OT (sorry, Dee)… adulthood is such an interesting concept. I finally felt like I’d reached adulthood when I got a Costco membership.

    This was after graduating college, moving abroad all on my own, starting a career, getting married, and buying a house. But finally feeling like an adult? Not until that Costco card.

    Strange.

  149. Ava Aaronson: We may have to agree to disagree.

    Thanks, Ava. I don’t see anything to disagree about, but maybe I wasn’t being clear. Perhaps a more obvious example is the chief financial officer of a large corporation, who diverts money to numbered Swiss accounts. He did the work and also committed a crime. Maybe he set out to rob an employer, or maybe he turned to corruption late in his career. Does that make sense?

  150. Wild Honey,

    ha, that’s funny. we’re all kooky and complicated.

    i’ll sum up a bunch of words i tried to string together by saying we all have our weirdness. why settle for the so-called mainstream option when we could go for the unconventional thing that really intrigues and excites us, and strikes our honesty bell head on making it sing.

  151. Wes,

    We are usually using shorthand. I see a lot of sadness in most of these accounts about how the church top nobs got themselves into that mess.

    Your emotive ad hominem epithets “reflexive” and “unequivocal” are at least furnishing me an excuse to reinforce my message.

    I started joining movements of that kind 48 years ago. When did you start doing so?

    I am appalled at the lack of curiosity about the meaning of Holy Scripture including the continuing lack of curiosity by some TWW regulars. It’s as if some of us remain wedded to fundamentalism, indelibly marked by it, for ever after the Order of Gobbledygook.

    In my teens was a TV slogan, “power to all my friends, power that never ends”. What was that about?

    If I succumbed with my better start how did the prominent ones get like that? Some were older than me, but some are younger and “wouldn’t know” things I know. Some were richer than me before they started. Most “knew people”. Some went to some sort of “bible school” for at least a little while.

    Why do the followers think it is trendy to follow?

    Your “observation” of shortage of empathy on our part is not a deep one. You are glimpsing horror, like the famous “scream” painting.

    What do you think right theology is? You made 2 or 3 comments and I don’t see an opinion of yours. Others have asked too.

    Big, once stable denominations suddenly gutted themselves – suddenly gutted themselves – during my childhood. Where were we supposed to look? Were you even aware of that perspective?

    Who will pray Daniel’s prayer? Who will believe Ascension Holy Spirit truth? The entire NT and OT say, “don’t lord it, and don’t be lorded over”.

  152. Wes,

    We’ve all got to explore further, but can you offer any weight to the subject yourself? Empathy is in Ascension Holy Spirit truth. What do you think of that for example?

  153. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    No sadly this is the standard official “philosophy of religion” a.k.a apologetics a.k.a Christian teachings. If you think about it it neatly fits the whole thing we discuss.

    “Fundamentalism is what Christians do so it must be a good thing”. Just like from some of the Popes or Gradgrinds of old, we are not supposed to read our Bibles.

    Michael in UK,

    HUG, I am moved to add that Mill’s writings on logic and science were inconsistent and vague. He largely plumped for the dumbed down single difference model of thinking of the politician-dictator Francis Bacon.

    The genius of the Whigs in both Liberal and Conservative Parties was to make him go down as one of those English middle of the roaders. Even some at his time saw him as a Robespierre. He has of course renamed the brash new Goddess as Jesus Christ which makes it all right then. More balanced and nuanced advocates of science get seriously blackened, still.

    If Mill and Swinburne and Durkheim and Gradgrind look nice, that is the reason Piper looks nice.

  154. Muff Potter,

    One might argue a bit differently, that Jesus was addressing Israel under looming threat of destruction at the hands of Rome, while Paul was addressing Gentiles living in the futility of pagan idolatry. That Paul and Jesus do sound quite a bit different (there are no gehenna sayings in the Pauline writings, for example) might be attributable to this difference in audience.

    Calvin was addressing a completely different social universe.

    I used to think that every Bible text applied in the same way to every person at every time. I now think that’s a bit too simplistic (and yes, this does amount to a bit of a “walk back” on my prior citation of 1 Jn 3:16). But that’s a door that not everyone may want to walk through; the landscape on the other side can be quite disorienting.

  155. elastigirl,

    For every person that did that, there was another one interceding. If we’re to do as we’ve not been told, we have to stop our passivity. Why don’t we pretend there REALLY IS A “GOD”?

    The Wes’s might not have polish, but we can’t answer them till we’ve started on this. Daniel did it.

  156. Friend,

    This is, at least partially, what Max talks about having preacher boys that have not lived much being your “pastor”… there really is no substitute for living life, with responsibilities… and dealing with the “messiness” of life…
    Also, the longer I live and learn, the less I think/feel I really know/understand…..so many things have happened that I never would have “predicted”..

  157. Jeffrey Chalmers: preacher boys that have not lived much being your “pastor”… there really is no substitute for living life, with responsibilities … and dealing with the “messiness” of life …

    Never trust a pastor who hasn’t been through some stuff.

  158. Muff Potter: In their belief system Paul and Calvin are the platinum standards.
    Jesus plays second fiddle.

    No doubt about it. Even Piper gets more NeoCal airtime than Jesus!

  159. elastigirl: these things have a way of turning us from a potato just sitting there to a diamond. the facets are hard-won, expensive, of great value.

    Great words! At present, I’m still more spud than gem … but I’m not the tater I used to be.

  160. Ava Aaronson: Neo-Cals are not particularly fond of Jesus

    If they were fond of Jesus, they would talk more about Him! At the beginning of the New Calvinist movement, I used to listen to sermon podcasts by SBC-YRR church planters in my area (to see what made them tick). I listened with a pad of paper before me in four columns: God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Calvinist icon. I put a check by those names when they were mentioned in the sermon. Without exception, over numerous sermons, I recorded a lot of checks for “God”, with only a few for Jesus, hardly a mention of the Holy Spirit. Icons (Calvin, Piper, Driscoll, etc.) received many more checks than Jesus. It’s all about Sovereign God not the Living Christ … the balance is just not there in their preaching.

  161. Ava Aaronson,

    Moral of the story: It’s great to have Jesus come looking for you after you have been tossed out of church by Pharisees. There’s freedom in Christ … there’s bondage in much of the church.

  162. Max,

    Max’s exercise is a great way to “quantitatively” (the engineer in me comes out) to get a good idea what is important to your pastor… and church…. for so many “preachers” that claim to be so”biblical”, you could probably do the same with respect to how much of the Bible they really teach….. for many little on Bible, much on their “opinion”…. and little on the “hard verses”…. or apparent “contradictions”, if they contradict their pet doctrine…

  163. Max: I put a check by those names when they were mentioned in the sermon. Without exception, over numerous sermons, I recorded a lot of checks for “God”, with only a few for Jesus, hardly a mention of the Holy Spirit. Icons (Calvin, Piper, Driscoll, etc.) received many more checks than Jesus. It’s all about Sovereign God not the Living Christ … the balance is just not there in their preaching.

    When Max first mentioned this way back when I started doing looking at church websites with this in mind. Covenants, too. It’s pretty obvious Christ is often left out once you notice it.

    They talk about themselves and their friends A LOT, and sometimes more than any member of the trinity. They also often change their message depending on target audience. If they are targeting evangelicals outside the SBC, Jesus will get mentioned often. To their own — almost never. Same with the Holy Spirit.

    I started asking friends who still go to New Cal churches what books of the Bible got preached on. One of the largest churches (in the US) had been on the Torah for the past 10 years! None of them said they had heard a sermon on the Gospels at their church except one, who said it was on Matthew 18 and “gossip”. I have noticed, as someone with a degree in missions (and 94% of a masters degree in it), that I have never heard/read a New Calvinist mention the Great Commission in Matthew 18, but I’ve seen them reference the brother sins against you passage countless times.

    Theologically, Christ is normally mentioned as atonement but left out of most other of their big tenets. For example, 9 Marks left out “the greatest of these is love” in their 9 Marks of a church. Church discipline is hardly mentioned at all in the Bible but is a core tenet and treated like it’s a huge part of the Bible.

  164. Jeffrey Chalmers: Max’s exercise is a great way to “quantitatively” (the engineer in me comes out) to get a good idea what is important to your pastor… and church…. for so many “preachers” that claim to be so”biblical”, you could probably do the same with respect to how much of the Bible they really teach….. for many little on Bible, much on their “opinion”…. and little on the “hard verses”…. or apparent “contradictions”, if they contradict their pet doctrine…

    A number of people here have also noticed that many pastors that get written about here seem to fall to the “sin” that they preach against most.

  165. ishy: A number of people here have also noticed that many pastors that get written about here seem to fall to the “sin” that they preach against most.

    They’re truing to self-medicate in Secret.

    Like the one about becoming a paychiatrist because you’re crazy and hope to treat/cure yourself without anyone finding out.

    Or Rush Limbaugh, Number-One Fanboy of The War On Drugs while servicing a secret Oxycontin addiction.

    Or Ted Haggard, second only to Fred Phelps on the subject of Certian Christian Pelvic Issues until he got caught with a male prostie and (in bad disguise) was known at local gay sex shoppes.

  166. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Or they might be projecting. And to tie it back to the OP, perhaps if one is not strong on the empathy spectrum, the only reference one has for understanding other people is one’s self-perceptions.

  167. Jeffrey Chalmers: for so many “preachers” that claim to be so”biblical”, you could probably do the same with respect to how much of the Bible they really teach…..

    Don’t know about you, but EVERY RCC Mass I’ve attended has FOUR Bible passages in the first half (Liturgy of the Word) on a rotating basis:
    First Reading: OT
    Responsorial Psalm: Psalms
    Second Reading: NT (non-Gospels)
    Third Reading: Gospel

    Then the Homily (short sermon) is supposed to reference one or more of the Readings, but that can vary.

  168. Jeffrey Chalmers: what is important to your pastor

    Beware of church leaders who don’t talk about Jesus much … what’s the point in doing church if they don’t. Unfortunately, that is exactly what’s going on in the American church … so many churchgoers have gotten over Jesus, in both pulpit and pew.

  169. Headless Unicorn Guy: Then the Homily (short sermon) is supposed to reference one or more of the Readings, but that can vary.

    But that many readings would take away from the sermon! Can’t have the Bible be more important than the pastor! /s

  170. To pick up from numerous points in this thread:

    – single differences are vital when gathering evidence but must be eschewed when drawing conclusions like Piper does. We will always need to keep umpteen hypotheses open indefinitely

    – Samuel and Lowlandseer give us valuable insights into the development of Calvinism – thank you both. Slave holding by any sort of Christians of European culture was relatively newly invented in Edwards’ time, but not by him. I wonder whether Calvin and Edwards followed a hegemonic social model of church borrowed from some of the less good popes?

    – it was Samuel who the other week showed us the central meaning of Ascension

    – Ben Macintyre in Forgotten Fatherland traces chilling parallels between the Försters’ handling of Nueva Germania and the sort of churches often featuring here

    – Pius XII entrusted the world (in 1946) to the then American-based cartels – an “Americanism” that had been warned against 40 years prior. This part of their “manifest destiny” proved a burden too far for secular shoulders: this parellels Jeroboam II’s Make Israel Great again campaign (when Galilee got ethnically cleansed in 733, immediately after Jonah’s plea) and Josiah’s Make Judah Great Again, analysed by Jeremiah. America had tried to be “under God” in its own way and should have been left in peace and not overburdened on sacred grounds

    – Some misplaced elements within ecumenism were a misplaced reaction to the hysterical adoption of infallibility with its inevitable concomitant, infallibility creep: the real remedy to losing cool is not more losing cool

    – the bowler and cane (or brolly) sounds like John Cleese / Anthony Burgess

    – apparently not only did Calvin develop Calvinism as he went, there were reportedly offshoots in several countries in the 1560s, it got reinvented several times over between 1610-20, several times more in the 1680s, several more times from 1880-1920, and has been continually foaming in ever new varieties from 1945 to this day. Most fallacies don’t follow a Calvinist-Arminian divide and the alleged “two sides” exchange ideas – including some bad ones (e.g Durkheimist “apologists” that don’t speak for us). The Roman church both good and bad is very strongly Calvino-Arminian and v.v.

    – I love the repartee, wit and cultural references here

    – My heart always sinks when the bad pastors get excused on the grounds that their theology “is OK”

    – Fundamentalists (which are different again from what they intended in 1910) proclaim that Scripture has no meanings, thereby depriving you of the responsibility to enquire (behind their backs) into its meanings

    – In secular and spiritual contexts alike hegemonism and totalitarianism follow on from faulty ontology in which some organisation or “ideal entity” or some people are of a more improved grade than us. Nietzsche’s bitter satire (mis-edited afterwards) was alarm sounding and he searched the market place with a lamp in daylight for standards

    – Like I am getting the impression Heidegger personally did, the designer outlet church bosses have abolished human act, meaning, assertion, memory, reason, identity, knowing and being, in the name of an artificial “becoming”. They embody Will To Power

    (There are lots of free PDFs we can get at home)

    – A thankyou to Wade and colleagues for opening up prayer space every Saturday

  171. Michael in UK,

    “For every person that did that, there was another one interceding. If we’re to do as we’ve not been told, we have to stop our passivity. Why don’t we pretend there REALLY IS A “GOD”?

    The Wes’s might not have polish, but we can’t answer them till we’ve started on this. Daniel did it.”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    (so, this was in reference to the lovely shoe polisher.)

    i’m trying to get traction with your response.

    do you mean ‘we’ should stop our passivity by developing more of prayer discipline? as an expression of daring to believe there is really is a God who would hear and respond to our prayers?

    and do you mean that this discipline of praying prayers of faith (as opposed to wishing) is a prerequisite to being able to respond to criticism intended to be constructive? how so?

    and can you clarify the Daniel reference?

  172. elastigirl: i think surviving trauma is the definition of being an adult. many things that seem generically right-of-passage-ish are often quite traumatic. and certainly some things are exponentially more traumatic than others.

    these things have a way of turning us from a potato just sitting there to a diamond. the facets are hard-won, expensive, of great value.

    surviving, as i see it, is depth of understanding, awareness, and credibility.

    Last year a young adult in my circle went through a life-threatening time of depression that extended even to a team of people on suicide watch. Blessedly they survived and crept back, slowly but surely, to a place of brighter light, greater strength, and wisdom beyond their years. Yesterday I had a chance to speak with this precious individual, and I shared your insight: that the slow, careful work of recovering from trauma turns a plain old potato into a diamond.

    I wish you had been there to see this precious young face grow soft, and smile.

    Thank you again.

  173. Friend,

    well, damn! in the best sense.
    .
    .
    i’m so happy for this person. but that doesn’t sound quite right–

    i understand that a deeper settled feeling of a kind of peace (perhaps another way of saying ‘brighter light, greater strength, and wisdom beyond their years’) is never not in touch with dull pain of old.

    kind of like after a minor injury of sorts is taken care of, and you’re settled on a sofa or bed, the warm blanket feels really nice and you don’t feel so bad. in fact, you feel kind of good. but the sore bruising is still there.

  174. elastigirl: but that doesn’t sound quite right

    It doesn’t feel quite right, either, but the terror is gone. A person who has been that despondent needs a lot of time and loving support, and maybe a long spell of therapy and/or medication, to recover.

    There’s no guarantee that the monster will stay away. However, patterns of reflection and thoughtfulness help a great deal. People are safest when they can protect themselves, and when they summon help without hesitation.

    A change of circumstances can also help. This young person got out of a toxic situation and into better circumstances.

    For anyone who needs help for themselves or a loved one, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is 800-273-8255. Web address is https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/ … services are available in English and Spanish. Chat sessions are also offered.

  175. Michael in UK: the bowler and cane (or brolly) sounds like John Cleese

    Straight out of “Upper Class Twit of the Year” and “Ministry of Silly Walks”, but this time nobody’s laughing.

  176. Michael in UK: – My heart always sinks when the bad pastors get excused on the grounds that their theology “is OK”

    It’s the old “Purity Of Ideology is ALL That Matters”.
    (Now that GULAG is passing out of living memory, ask a survivor of Cambodia’s Killing Fields about that one.)

    This attitude was also endemic among all those Christianese Cult Watch celebrity theologians from the mid-Seventies to the mid-EIghties (pre- and post-Jonestown). They all defined CULT(TM) in terms of aberrant Theology, not repeat Not in controlling/abusive behavior towards their people. (The difference between a Theological/Heresy Cult and a Sociological Cult.)

    And those groups whose theology passed muster would weaponize their clean bill of health (certificate of Real True Christian from the cult-sniffers) as a further means of control and abuse.

  177. Max: Beware of church leaders who don’t talk about Jesus much … what’s the point in doing church if they don’t.

    It does kinda defeat the whole purpose of the exercise.

  178. I just listened to a podcast on this topic. My thoughts on this? It’s apologetics for sociopaths.

    Abigail:
    There is a connection here…follow the reasoning. If Wilson is Calvinistic in his (warped) theology then to show empathy over something God allowed/ordained is to be critical of God himself. This would lead to becoming emotionally and theolgically dead to the pain of others.

  179. Abigail: This would lead to becoming emotionally and theolgically dead to the pain of others

    An alternative interpretation is that the causality runs in the opposite direction — that people who, by the constitution of their persons, do not experience empathy will favor systems of theology that could be interpreted to normalize that. This seems to me the more probable explanation. There’s a correlation between personality type and the kinds of theology that a person finds appealing.

  180. Michael in UK: – Fundamentalists (which are different again from what they intended in 1910) proclaim that Scripture has no meanings,

    Which actually sounds more like Nihilism than anything else.

  181. Muff Potter: In their belief system Paul and Calvin are the platinum standards.
    Jesus plays second fiddle.

    Jesus is there only as a Celebrity Endorsement for Paul, Calvin, and Lead Pastor/Head Apostle.

  182. Ava Aaronson: The kirk has a counseling center where all disclosed is not private but can be shared with the kirk’s leadership for church discipline (shepherding) at leadership discretion.

    JUST LIKE SCIENTOLOGY AUDITING RECORDS!

    (Except Elron’s Inner Ring dressed in fake US Navy uniforms instead of Bowlers & Brollies.)