Closeup of Clouds on Jupiter-NASA
“People have always struggled with the same needs – to be accepted by their friends and family, to find their way to God, and to make a contribution to their world… there have always been charismatic figures ready to take advantage of those most afraid and most hopeful.” Churches that Abuse by Ronald Enroth
The Stockstill Legacy Church aka Bethany Church
This post is about Bethany Church in Baton Rouge. This church has had three generations of Stockstills running this church. If you take some time and read through the church website, you will quickly see that the Stockstills appear to be the only authority in this church. In fact, Joel Stockstill, brother of head pastor Jonathan Stockstill, along with his former wife, Amie (who died from cancer) ran the infamous and apparent cultish *teen intern” program. The church is huge and has several locations. However, there do not appear to be any oversight committees or elders for this church.
The church is charismatic in practice according to their affirmation of faith. I found these particular affirmations interesting.
- We affirm that the “stripes” placed upon Jesus Christ at his crucifixion provide physical healing to all who will believe and receive.
- We affirm the ministries of Ephesians 4 (Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers). (ed: CJ Mahaney loved his title of Head Apostle…)
- We affirm that all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are operative today. (ed. I’m waiting for them to raise someone from the dead)
Jonathan Stockstill appears to have taken a similar path to Mark Gungor. There is no mention of any education beyond high school but he claims to be an internationally recognized worship artist. In fact, he is now recording songs at Bethany. Looks to me that recording music is his thing and he mixes it into his role a Bethany. He is one busy guy and apparently overlooked what was going on with the “training” of the interns. According to NBC News:
the 40-year-old pastor is trying to preserve his public image as a hip preacher who relates to younger people and who is also the frontman for a Christian rock band called Deluge.
I might disagree. I bet there is a monetary incentive in tying his music to his church but that’s for another day.
NBC and other major news outlets have picked up this story of interns getting abused.
On May 18, 2021, NBC posted This church program is accused of abusing teens with extreme ‘boot camps,’ ‘fight nights’ and shame.
“Boot camps” where the trainees learn the Way of the Cross by exercising until they vomit or soil themselves — and by hefting heavy logs on their shoulders through the sweltering summer heat.
Participants who are Black or suspected of being gay being taunted with racist and homophobic slurs, and female interns being fat-shamed.
This program was called 220i which comes from Galatians 2:20 NIV.
The little *i* means that the person is supposed to be like that verse. It Is misinterpreted by the church to mean the kids mean very little and that is how they were treated.
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Things were reportedly out of control at this program run by the head pastor’s brother, Joel.
The UK Daily Mail posted Leaders of a Louisiana megachurch ‘forced teens on $5k Christian leadership program to exercise until they were sick, used homophobic and racist slurs and shot them with paintball guns from golf carts’
- The ‘220i’ scheme was run by Bethany Church between 2005 and 2013
- The program is also said to have staged fight nights between attendees
- Other accusations leveled at the 10 month long camp include regular weigh ins with those deemed overweight ‘called out publicly and put on restricted diets’
- Pictures show attendees carrying heavy logs and taking part in boot camps
- One mother told NBC she was was forced to ‘rescue’ her daughter from the ‘cult’
- Others describe being forced to cut ties from their family and having their ‘clothing, our hair, or make-up, even our weight’ policed by leaders
- They also say ‘extravagant gifts’ were encouraged for the program leaders
- Youth pastor Joel Stockstill, his late wife, Amy, and current wife, Amie are said to have been behind the alleged abuse at the student ministry
- The church has denied the allegations; Joel’s brother Jonathan, the church’s current lead pastor, posted to Facebook to publicly apologize for the program
Make sure you understand this. These teens had to pay $5,000 just to be part of the program. This did not include charges for room and board as well as travel.
- Youth pastor Joel Stockstill is also said to have supervised the workouts riding on his Segway. Stockstill, his late wife, Amy, and current wife, Amie are said to have been behind the alleged abuse at the student ministry.
- One mother told NBC she was was forced to ‘rescue’ her daughter from the ‘cult’.
- Others describe being forced to cut ties from their family and their ‘clothing, our hair, or make-up, even our weight’ being policed. They also say ‘extravagant gifts’ were encouraged for leaders.
According to NBC:
So far there doesn’t appear to have been an apology from Joel Stockstill, who boasted at a 2011 leadership conference that “the Lord has given me a creative ability for servanthood and discipline.”
“I just have supernatural creative ideas on how to administer the rod of brokenness to the backside of a foolish intern,” he said in a video posted to YouTube.
Here is an apology, of sorts, from lead pastor and internationally recognized musician who does not seem to have had any specialized training for the ministry. This was posted on his FaceBook on April 28, 2021.
NBC documented allegations that Joel and his wife would target kids who were fat. They also encouraged black interns to conform to white beauty standards.
Joel Stockstill eventually remarried, and ex-interns said his second wife, Amie, would “police our clothing, our hair, or makeup, even our weight,” Emerson said.
“Every week, she checked our BMI, and if you were above a certain BMI, you got called out publicly and put on restricted diets. There are girls still suffering from eating disorders because of this,” Emerson said.
Amie Stockstill would tell the female interns “to be fat meant that you had sin in your life,” Claire said. She would also force the Black interns to “succumb to whiteness” by relaxing their hair and “conforming to white beauty standards,” she said.
In the meantime, the church was allegedly marketing this program to other churches. According to NCC News:
Bethany Church marketed the 220i ministry to other churches, drawing participants from across the United States and from countries as far away as Malaysia, the ex-interns said. The interns lived at the church in a dormitory-type setting for the duration of the 10-month program.
Black male interns got the worst of the allegedly bad housing. According to NBC:
“I lived in a four-bedroom house with 21 girls,” Claire said. “We only had two bathrooms. We only had one kitchen, one laundry room. The house’s A/C was broken during the summer, and they never fixed it. We were constantly sick because of the close quarters and how old and moldy the house was.”
There was next to no privacy, and they were monitored by “housemoms” only slightly older than them “who would punish us for minor ‘infractions,’ like talking to a boy, by making us scrub floors and do other menial labor,” Claire said.
Things were no better for the male interns, especially the Black male interns, who were relegated to the filthiest rooms in the dorms the church used, the interns said.
Lawsuits may be in the works
According to Christianity Daily:
Those who talked to NBC News, on the other hand, viewed it as a public relations gimmick intended at averting a “potential lawsuit by the more than 100 men and women” who have formed an online survivors’ group.
I wish them well and intend to keep following their efforts.
What an awful story. Those poor precious young people. I hope that they realize that their lives have infinite value. They deserve healing and comfort. And they deserve justice.
New stories coming out every week, abuse is almost everywhere, they all seem to fit the pattern of no accountability.
Sigh…. this stuff will never end….. and, of course, the “leaders” proclaimed how pious they were….
The first two points in their “Affirmation of Faith” are also affirmed by my Word-of-Faith/Prosperity-Gospel/Catch-the-Fire/New-Apostolic-Reformation neighbor.
Every time I think I should reconcile with her, I shudder inside and remember that some people can only be “loved in Christ” from a safe distance.
Those poor kids. And those poor deluded parents, paying $5,000 just so their kids could be abused. I thought internships were supposed to pay the interns, not vice versa.
Yes, I know there are unpaid internships — or, as my kids would call them, “fuhgeddaboudits” — but even those unpaid internships didn’t require the interns to cough up $5,000. Good grief. What a scam.
More from Jonathan Stockstill’s post on Facebook:
“… As the lead pastor of Bethany, I would like to take responsibility and repent to anyone that had a negative experience. Please forgive us. I know that a singular post from me will not even come close to healing the wounds, but on behalf of the current leadership of Bethany Church, I’m asking that you forgive us. We didn’t represent Christ well to you, and for that we are sorry. As a pastor, my heart is broken. I desire to see people healed, free, and loving Jesus, and this program did not do that. Bethany is two years away from being sixty years old as a ministry. Through the years, we have seen tens of thousands of people put their faith in Jesus, be water baptized, follow Christ, and connect to a healthy church community. We have been a pillar of light and strength to the communities to which we belong. To think that in any way we have caused pain is heart breaking and not at all who we strive to be. Again I ask, that you please forgive us.”
Here’s how I might translate this: It would be such a shame if our abusive program, which lasted a mere eight years, threatened our future. Surely you didn’t expect us to notice the racism, sexism, and fat shaming we designed into the program.
“This program was called 220i which comes from Galatians 2:20 NIV.
The little *i* means that the person is supposed to be like that verse. It is misinterpreted by the church to mean the kids mean very little and that is how they were treated.” (Dee)
Church leaders are treading on dangerous ground when they distort Scripture as as set-up to use and abuse children.
“Whoever misleads one of these little ones who believe in Me, it would be better for him to have a millstone hung about his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.” (Matthew 18:6)
At the rate reports of this nature are hitting the blogosphere, the heavenly host must be having trouble keeping up with millstone production.
“Impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived” (2 Timothy 3)
OT – Dee, I saw your Twitter comment about Kevin DeYoung’s recent TGC article about complementarianism. DeYoung makes a number of problematic statements, but those he makes in particular about slavery in the New Testament era make me want to vomit.
“It could be a step toward a better lot in life… slavery could be a manageable way out of dire poverty.”
Only had to pull out one of my Roman history books to find ample primary source references disputing this. If a man were murdered, and the suspect was one of his slaves, ALL the enslaved persons in the household could be (and were) executed. And we’re talking households of 400 enslaved persons. Corporal punishment was the norm, with floggings most common but branding, leg-breaking (remember, before pain medication and antibiotics), and eye-gouging not unheard of for minor or imaginary offenses. Enslaved women’s “services” in the bedroom were freely given away. Slaves died of maltreatment and exhaustion, particularly those who worked in the mines, on farms, or as public (government-owned) slaves.
About 30% of the population in Rome were enslaved. They were born into slavery, prisoners of war, convicted criminals, persons involuntarily sold by their creditors to pay off debt, and had no legal rights or moral standing as persons.
They were NOT, as DeYoung implies, generally people using the status of “slave” as a stepping stone toward a better life.
DeYoung is trying to whitewash history to make this particular theology more palatable. It’s disgusting on so many levels.
I noticed in the Facebook post comments that the overwhelming “positive” comments about experiences about the 220i program came from men. And that the strongest stories of abuse came from women.
I am relieved that those people talking about negative experiences and telling people that there was abuse are not being deleted, as many pastors and churches would do.
re: ” (ed. I’m waiting for them to raise someone from the dead)”
One could add to this the even more basic “can they ‘pray to the Father in Jesus’ name and have it done for them, whatever they ask.’?”
Pretty clearly not, since the problems they have created for themselves are not going away.
—-
Regarding “220i”, I think this illustrates a flaw in a core evangelical approach to application of the NT, that one ought to “personalize the pronouns”, so that when Paul writes “I” in his letters, we 20th century readers should see ourselves in that text. This is a really effective way of recruiting people into service positions in ministry corporations (which is the context in which I encountered the principle — CCC in college — and seems to be the context at Stockstill family ministry inc.), but it might not be a wise way of making intelligent (and God-honoring) life decisions.
The question of how to apply ancient biblical texts to present-day life is more complex than simply “personalize the pronouns.” OTOH, I suspect that some texts can be relatively easily applied to present-day situations. For example, it looks to me like 220i was a work of iniquity, and its leaders might be people who, applying Mt 7:23, Jesus never knew.
Samuel Conner,
I agree with the observation of not correctly reading, and applying scripture… American Evangelicalism/Fundamentalism is so focused on everything being personal, about “me”… and text being literal, until it becomes ridiculous..
Friend,
I read “ends justify the means”…. my further question is.. What “Gospel “ are they preaching? Did Christ teach like this? Does their “ministry” demonstrate divine Love? apostle Paul is pretty clear that if you do not have “Love”, your “Gospel” is in question..
Yes, and more ominously, forget what Paul said about there being neither Jew nor Greek, and neither male nor female. They enforced the social system they want to see in the world, in my opinion.
Sounds like something Southern Baptist slaveholders (including some pastors and deacons) might have said to defend their Civil War support of “managing” slaves as they chained and beat them into submission. Slavery should never be considered a stepping stone to “a better lot in life” anywhere anytime. I guess DeYoung equates enslavement to “the beauty of complementarity”, thinking it provides women a better lot in life. When will the American church finally be done with these creepy New Calvinists?!!
That’s why the largest section in Christian bookstores is “self-help.”
My daughter taught first grade for a number of years. One year, she had a little girl who was always demanding attention. The child had to be first in line, first to answer a question, yelling over other students to be recognized, etc. She kept shouting “What about me?! What about me?!?” My daughter took her aside one day and said “Honey, this class is not about ‘you’ … it’s about ‘us'”, as she pointed to the other children. She said that truth struck home and the little girl then merged into the class as just one of the gang.
It’s amazing how many church folks – in both pulpit and pew – never get that. It’s never about ‘me’ … it should always be about ‘us’ as we do the Great Commission together.
“For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ … Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.” (1 Cor 12:12-27)
Wild Honey,
I was going to quote your entire comment, Wild Honey, but doing so would have made my comment way too long…
After reading Wild Honey’s comment….from the ABC News article: ““The name ‘220’ came from Galatians 2:20, which we all had to memorize during the boot camps,” said a former intern who attended the program in 2007 to 2008 and asked to be identified as Claire. “The emphasis of the verse was placed on ‘It is no longer I who lives.’ The verse was misinterpreted to control us and our will. In 220i, there is a lowercase ‘i’ to denote that we are not worthy of being called uppercase ‘I’, that we did not exist anymore…..This ideology set us up for mind control.”
The ABC News article quote sounds like basic worm theology / patriarchy / fundamentalism, and the interns were treated like slaves.
I might not have worded my comment very well or clearly, but does anyone else see the connection between the Kevin DeYoung article Wild Honey mentioned and the internship program? And then if (general) you take into account issues arising from the Bethany Church “affirmations”….
They are called “God’s Pet Kids” and the Evangelical Church is full of them, the adult versions. They easily follow their adored narcissist pied piper leaders.
The God of the Bible is no fool, no fan of selfish bully brats; He is never their leader. The christo-fascist bully brat pack follows someone else.
The God of the Bible truly cares for each one of us. Caring is sharing, never stomping on others to get what you want. Mutual lift.
researcher,
I see the connection, and I think it is disgusting… these church leaders clearly do NOT believe the same Gospel I do, and there is NO place for “preacher” to get into the business of justifying slavery… slavery does not “ treat your brother as you wish to be treated”
I think it’s more egregious than that. Do they (they-religious leaders en masse) even know that the Paulinian texts are private letters of instruction and advice to individual church leaders??? If they do know, they to not indicate that they know.
So many times, Paul’s letters are misinterpreted, misapplied and treated as being more important, more holy, and more sacred than Jesus’ words. Nowadays, Paul is more important than Jesus – the Prince of peace has been dethroned.
Never mind that Jesus said “love thy neighbor …..” and “do unto others……”. Nope, Paul is the primary, and almost singular focus in the NT.
Sometimes I would like to twist a little scripture. I would assume that if these so-called “men of god” treat people badly, then they wish to be treated badly themselves!
Something in one of the Bethany Church affirmations bothers me, but maybe I’ve just never heard this particular type of description. Perhaps some kind Wartburger could help me out?
One of the Bethany Church affirmations states: We affirm the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; those that are saved to the resurrection of life and those that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation.
Are there any Wartburgers who have heard the phrase “those that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation.”? To me, it sounds like Bethany Church is saying damnation is some kind of resurrection. Or maybe it was just sloppiness on their part….
I noticed other typos and / or poorly written affirmations. Or maybe some of the sloppiness was actually “sloppiness”, deliberately done to leave Bethany Church an excuse to say “But it’s written right on our website….you must have misunderstood.”
researcher,
This language sounds to me like pretty standard infernalist individual eschatology — there is a general resurrection of all the dead, some of whom are rewarded with (pick your sub-flavor of theology of rewards); the rest are punished in the lake of fire. I’m guessing that the purpose of this statement is to make clear that they do not affirm any form of annihilationism, in some flavors of which, it is only the righteous who are raised.
researcher,
The problem is their turning it into an “affirmation”, proper churches don’t have “statements of doctrine”, except a catechism that is used in a less general way. There is the Nicene Creed and Apostles Creed, and until recently most churches recited the Nicene Creed weekly, and some use the Apostles Creed yearly with the addition of simple statements recited jointly such as “Do you renounce the devil and all his works – we do”: nothing personal, nothing elaborate, lots of trusting in Holy Spirit in those around us.
What Scripture says is intended by God and its authors to have meaning and fundamentalists deny all meaning: for them the word is the thing (reifiers). Fundamentalists can’t teach reality. In logic, one merely can’t prove annihilationism for definite; and we certainly don’t have the slightest idea what “time” will be like; so it’s facile to pretend in such a specific way as they do. Then of course there are false ideas of “communion” in just about every denomination. Those “statements” alarm me for what they imply by what they don’t say by saying too much.
He didn’t need any training.
HE WAS BORN A STOCKSTILL, and that’s what’s Important.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyh9w_AO3YE
Which actually happened in the early Empire, under either Claudius or Nero. A slave killed his master and all 400 household slaves were nailed to crosses regardless of age or sex. Caused quite an uproar throughout the City:
“QUARTOCENTI PRO UNO?”
There were actually contractors called “Tortures” (Torturers) who “disciplined animate property” for a fee. We know because some of their hiring contracts have survived. Contracts that include “equipment provided” (including scourges and crosses) and cleanup costs for damages caused by blood and/or other bodily fluids.
To Romans, nothing said POWER like the ability to kill without consequence.
Helped by Roman laws against adultery. Since slaves were personal property like your house or couch, you could no more commit adultery with a slave than you could with your couch.
“PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT!”
Fully expendable. (Just like Auschwitz.) If too many died off, just buy more.
There were always more incoming from the newly-conquered lands of the Empire.
A never-ending supply.
“ROMA! AETERNA! ROMA! INWICTA! WIWA ROMA!”
SO THIS IS WHAT THOSE NEWS ITEMS WERE ABOUT!
I remember hearing passing references to a Megachurch Boot Camp where the “Drill Sergeants” would ride around on golf carts or Segways screaming at the boots, but didn’t know the Megachurch was a family-owned business.
And getting the victims to pay FIVE GRAND APIECE for the privilege? NICE RACKET. Paying through the nose to be victimined – add-insult-to-injury humor worthy of Vladimir Lenin.
ION: Cricket
Not a good day for Yorkshire on Day 1 of the Roses match at Old Trafford; the visitors were reduced to 21-6 in the 18th over. But for a rearguard action by Duke and Patterson, who put on a remarkable 77 for the 8th wicket, the Tykes wouldn’t have made three figures. In the end they were dismissed for 159 – that 8th-wicket stand contributing very nearly half of the entire innings – with Lancashire in a commanding position on 95-1 at stumps.
Even more goings-on at Chester-le-Street, where Durham will have fancied their chances after winning the toss and dismissing visitors Essex for 182. In this case it was a single innings contributing half of the total, with Michael Pepper eventually trapped leg before by Chris Rushworth just 8 runs short of his century. But remarkably, the hosts were reduced to 58-6 before close of play. At the other end of the spectrum, the batting team of the day were Worcestershire, who reached 336-7 at home to Derbyshire.
IHTIH
Nick Bulbeck,
Hi Nick.
Like I’ve been harping for awhile now, sooner or later, one of these fundagelical rackets is gonna’ get their patooties sued off and hafta’ pay out the wazoo.
Scientology adjacent.
Nick Bulbeck,
Ava Aaronson,
…and to anyone else who likes to be mystified by sports, here’s some video that answers the question, “If a batter ran back toward home plate instead of going to first base as expected, would the inexperienced first baseman fall for the ruse and chase him?”
We’ve all been asking that question for years, right? 😉
https://twitter.com/MLB/status/1397965741916360714?s=20
Thank you for your helpful explanation. 🙂 From your explanation I realized I have encountered some variations on what you describe, but not in association with the phrase “those that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation”. And I had not encountered the terms “infernalist” or “infernalism”….
(I still have so very much to learn….very big sigh.)
(Psssst! A few of us don’t share that belief in the eternal torment of Hell. It’s a widespread teaching, but not universal. Popular notions of Hell are also influenced by writers such as the otherwise excellent Dante.)
researcher,
“Infernalist” is a somewhat pejorative term for that flavor of eschatology, and one may not encounter it very often, since the numerous proponents of this eschatology generally do not self-describe with this term.
Alas, the more one learns of the history of the churches’ theologies, the more one is likely to be discouraged. We’ve come a long way from the simplicity of the first churches. Ecclesiastes 1:18 comes to mind.
I think I maybe see what you’re getting at… Slavery (generally speaking) uses fear and intimidation to control, and a part of that is “othering” the enslaved. Both making the enslaved think they are so lowly they don’t deserve anything better, while also making the one holding power over the slave untouchable in their glorious glorious-ness, so that it is unimaginable that their glorious-ness could ever be on the same playing field as a slave.
Which kinda goes against the whole “he emptied himself, taking on the likeness of a SLAVE,” doesn’t it? How many of these leaders would have allowed themselves to be hazed and shamed like they did to the teenagers under their care? Instead, they revel in their power, which is the exact opposite of what Jesus did.
Jesus:
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble of heart; and you will find rest. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” Matt. 11
JC: the guy with the light touch & humble heart.
We’ve all heard the stories of youth used and abused and internships. Here we have a church doing so, and without the MSM’s investigation, it just goes on.
We did volunteer missionary service in our young adult years, before having children of our own. We were not minors, however, like in this post.
We invested several years of our young lives overseas, so it was 100% commitment, in a sense. All expenses paid and we didn’t have to raise support. All needs cared for, with humanitarian comfort and appropriate time off. We were respected and appreciated. (Sometimes someone had a bad moment or a bad day, but that’s life, normal.) We entered without investing our own money and walked away without material gain. All good.
There is a place for service and volunteerism. Abuse and using people – minors in particular – should have no place in churches & ministry.
Nick Bulbeck,
Here’s what some hardy lads do in Scotland:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysb4XRCN2eA
MSM?
You mean the Secular Antichrist Lügenpresse(TM) with their Fake News(TM)?
I’m a former youth minister and I also know a person who did this internship. I used to “religiously” devour sermons from Joel Stockstill in my mid 20s when I first started doing youth ministry. I really looked up to him and his brother.
My biggest red flag came when he called people “fags” from the pulpit. In fact when people walked out he said he did not care. To me this did not sit well and I stopped following his ministry. I can only imagine the damage done to the young people in this church. Only God knows.
It’s the age-old pulpit abuse of 1 John 2:19 “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us” (1 John 2:19). This position has been too often used by aberrant ministers and ministries to convince those who stay that exiting members were the bad boys, not them. When people walk away from a church for whatever reason, pastors care … genuine servants of the Lord never say they don’t care.
Churches which do are not genuine Christian ministry. They are not part of the Kingdom of God on earth in the here and now. Christian leaders (real ones) never abuse and use people – to offend a minor is to tread on dangerous ground.
Max,
In fact, our church small group just discuss 2 Peter, and our leader pointed out how Peter was calling out “bad leaders” back then, including “using” pew peons… nothing new under the sun…
I also agree with Max, Paul, the poster child of the Neo Calvinists, is quite clear on the “fruits of the spirit”, and what “loving” our fellow man is.. All of these clowns we read about on TWW are not practicing NT “love”, and many clearly violate clear principles of leadership set out in the NT..
Our society has always rewarded boldness, even when it’s just plain hateful.
Hatred needs to be identified and challenged, before it draws a crowd.
Nick Bulbeck,
Whoa! Speaking of resurrection……… great to see you back, Nick!
Stick around a while.
Thank you for ^That information, Friend. 🙂 Most (if not all) that I have encountered in Christian teaching is (general) you are either going to the Kingdom of Heaven or the eternal torment of Hell.
One of the things I treasure about TWW and Wartburgers is how much I learn from reading the posts and all the comments….
^That’s good to know….I had wondered why, when I did a very quick search, the information I was finding was so limited (or was way too academic for my interest).
^That. Very big sigh….
And the one (or ones) holding the power over are frequently cult leaders….
That might depend….some leaders start at the top, and some leaders work their way up the ladder. And sometimes the leaders that work their way up the ladder are worse than those that went before them (having learned the tricks of the trade on their way up the ladder, as well as learning what those above them might not have seen or experienced).
Having lived in Baton Rouge for the past 20 years we have some excellent churches here as well. Evaluating/Selecting a church can be difficult.
I took a position on a church staff early in my ministry. The first say we arrived after my hiring we were at church in a line where folks were greeting us. I will never forget the elderly lady who shook my wife and my hands and said, “You must have a lot of faith to come here.” I did not know what she meant then but I soon found out!
I am glad that you realize that time is relative and that logic needs to be used. You are the first who has recognized that time or its actually space-time is just a dimension of this universe. A God who sits outside of it can fill space-time the same as the x,y and z axis. God is present now, and is present in our past and is present in our future and that is why He calls himself I AM. The physics of a place or a lake that is made of fire is something that is not explained in depth so to do conjecture is very pointless. What is not conjecture is that this phrase was chosen for a reason and in order to communicate something very negative about the place. To deny that this lake exists is to contradict the very words of Jesus. To those who deny hell and judgment, which Jesus talked about, how can you trust what He said about Paradise or anything else for that matter? Truth is not a pick what you want and the rest just ceases to exist because it is unpleasant kind of thing.
I say all that because some over 24 years now ago I was shown a holding cell in hell designed for a goat, or a false believer. It was the most real thing I have ever experienced! I would much sooner doubt what we call this reality in this universe than that. To me to deny this lake and whatever physics might actually be involved with it is true and utter foolishness. If you want to be a Christian, you have to believe that Jesus is not lying about that. We do not have to fully understand its workings to know that it is somewhere we can go and that God does not want us to, but the choice is really up to us…
Mr. Jesperson,
I could almost write an essay on why the lurid fascination with and almost gleeful portrayal of hell?
So here’s the short version:
Why create and maintain a monument to the hatred and cruelty of the Devil?
Those who promote the common picture of Hell often point out that Jesus’ followers believed that all non-believers would go there. Then it’s a quick hop-skip to saying “you have to warn all your friends,” and “everyone in Communist countries will go to Hell, because they lived in a time when they heard Jesus’ name.”
Think about that for a moment. In the decades after Jesus’ death, the Christian movement was tiny and local. Why would a loving God send the contemporaries of the first apostles to Hell, when the first apostles had no chance to warn them?
I’m happy to reject teachings that threaten people with eternal suffering, especially for things over which they have no control whatsoever. Christians need to give up the tired game of “our little group is the only way to heaven.”
Being that it’s about a decade since these kids attended, it seems that it’s the former ‘clients’ speaking out. A lot of parents probably thought this was just great Christian character building. Yet another damning example of the culture of compliance endemic in the evangelical world.
A bit late in checking this thread — sorry.
The question is not “denial versus affirmation of Jesus’ gehenna sayings”, but rather “what did those sayings mean to their original hearers and how should we apply them to our present situation?”
There’s a strong case to be made that Jesus’ gehenna (literually, “hinnom valley”) sayings pertain to the imminent peril of national destruction, at the hands of the Romans, that faced Israel. This is “the coming wrath” of which John and later Jesus warned. And it did indeed come, and vast numbers of people of that “generation” of Israel did perish. But the ones who heeded Jesus’ warnings against participating in the rebellion, and who fled Jerusalem at the approach of the Roman armies, did not perish; they were saved from that peril.
How one applies these sayings to our present circumstances is a good question, and one that the churches have largely neglected, since they have focused on a vision of Jesus’ gehenna sayings as pertaining not to Israel’s then historical predicament of imminent national calamity but rather to a timeless vision of the universal human predicament.
I look forward with great curiosity to see how the Church’s theologians will rise to this challenge.
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FWIW, I once experienced a terrifying vision of post-mortem punishments. But I’m reluctant to regard it to be a form of extrabiblical revelation. I’m rather more concerned to try to understand what the biblical texts (and the prophetic utterances recorded in them) meant to their original recipients. That’s ground zero for constructing present-day applications.
Funny… I’ve heard the exact same thing about Six-Day Zap Creationism.
Remember YOU’re the guy who claimed Private Revelation direct from Christ that COVID was God’s Wrath poured out upon the church.
Infernalism check:
If the preacher or church would cease to exist if they could not preach Fear of Eternal Hell.
A lot of churches are based on FEAR, FEAR, FEAR, with Hell always ready as the OR ELSE!!!!!
Same with angels and demons, but that didn’t stop Medieval theologians from constructing elaborate detailed books and lists and charts in exquisite detail of all the beings in Heaven & Hell (a comllete census count including names, ranks/orders, and specialties).
Each generation of Angelologists/Demonologists would speculate based on the prior generation’s speculation taken as Absolute FACT, then the next generation would take their speculations as Absolute FACT and build on that. Continue this for several centuries at three/four generations per century and…
When I read your comment, Jack, I was reminded of the term “muscular Christian”, a reference I read many years ago in some Victorian era based murder mystery books.
From Wikipedia (on Muscular Christianity): Muscular Christianity is a philosophical movement that originated in England in the mid-19th century, characterized by a belief in patriotic duty, discipline, self-sacrifice, manliness, and the moral and physical beauty of athleticism.
The movement came into vogue during the Victorian era as a method of building character in pupils at English public schools. It is most often associated with English author Thomas Hughes and his 1857 novel Tom Brown’s School Days, as well as writers Charles Kingsley and Ralph Connor.[1] American President Theodore Roosevelt was raised in a household that practiced Muscular Christianity and was a prominent adherent to the movement.[2] Roosevelt, Kingsley, and Hughes promoted physical strength and health as well as an active pursuit of Christian ideals in personal life and politics. Muscular Christianity has continued through organizations that combine physical and Christian spiritual development.[3] It is influential within both Catholicism and Protestantism.[4][5]
I am more used to reading the phrase “We believe” on the “Beliefs” page of a church than I am used to reading the phrase “We affirm”. And reading Bethany Church’s “Beliefs” page was the first time I remember reading the sentence “The Affirmation of Faith Shall Be”, rather than “Statement of Faith” or something similar. But then, I have limited experience in what churches write on their “Beliefs” page….
(And my apologies, Michael in UK, for my late reply….I just read your comment this morning.)
The phrase that runs through my head is, “…as we affirm our faith in the words of the Nicene Creed.”
I don’t know all the arguments and distinctions. Some years back I attended a seminary lecture about the Creeds. The speaker said that the Creeds are a statement of the core beliefs of the Church, not intended as a test given at each worship service. An individual Christian might disbelieve or struggle with parts of the Creeds, yet recite them without feeling hypocritical. (Of course, one can always just stand there quietly.)
I find this easier when the form starts as “We believe…” However, I think the earliest forms of the Creeds began in the first person singular, “Credo” (Latin for “I believe”). The older Apostles’ Creed was and is recited at baptisms. Therefore the “I believe” form makes sense, even if the adult baptismal candidate is reciting the teachings of the Church rather than a check-list of individual beliefs: “This is what I have learned in my preparation” rather than “A list of confounding mysteries I have fully grasped.”
Short answer?
You (generic you) use your God given divine nature to determine what’s what.
Katharine Bushnell put it this way:
If we find even in the Bible anything which confuses our sense of right and wrong, that seems to us less exalted and pure than the character of God should be:
If after the most patient thought and prayerful pondering it still retains that aspect, then we must not bow down to it as God’s revelation to us, since it does not meet the need of the earlier and more sacred revelation He has given us in our spirit and conscience which testify of him.
Thank you for ^That, Friend. You have given me much to think about….
I’m not confident that this is a rare or exceptional state of affairs. It seems to me that the conceptual underpinnings of “Evangelicalism” require there to be post-mortem “bad news” in order for its conception of “the Gospel” to be “good news.”
RC Sproul (so I am told — didn’t hear this myself) has said of NT Wright’s scholarship on Jesus’ public ministry that “it kills the Gospel” — meaning, I think, that since NT Wright sees Jesus’ prophetic ministry as pointing primarily to Israel’s imminent peril (a small, rebellious nation in the hands of an angry Empire) rather than the conventional vision of individual eschatology (sinners in the hands of an angry God), and since we do not face this specific peril that Israel faced, the conventional conception of the Gospel doesn’t have any “hooks” on which to grab present-day people’s interest.
I think that Wright’s interpretation of Jesus’ prophetic ministry is sounder than the conventional evangelical vision, and I don’t know whether Evangelicalism will be able to adapt to that sounder vision.
Sounds like to Sproul (Senior or “Precious”?), Wright Wasn’t Spiritual Enough.
Though Wright’s earthiness and here-and-now emphasis IS much more in tune with the Jewish attitudes and traditions of the Rabbi from Nazareth’s contemporary target audience.
As I heard once on Christian radio (as KBRT was starting its decline):
“If you can’t love ’em into The Kingdom, SCARE ‘EM INTO THE KINGDOM!”
(And none was better at Scaring Them In than Hal Lindsay combined with Jack Chick. Fifty years later, the damage is still there.)
He was able to scare a lot of women his way, too … married four times.
Sorry HUG that you had to experience Hal Lindsay.
“Wanna go up to Heaven? ‘Cuse I’m the Rpature Man…”
Hal Lindsay ANC Jack Chick, actually.
The two go together to make a GREAT Tag Team/One-Two Punch.
Especially when received through a filter of borderlne-Aspergers Literalism.