The view outside my window today.
“You know it’s a real salvation when Baptists use cold water.”
― Jared Brock, A Year of Living Prayerfully: How a Curious Traveler Met the Pope, Walked on Coals, Danced with Rabbis, and Revived His Prayer Life link
As you can see, it is a beautiful day on 30A in the Panhandle of Florida. It is my last day here and I plan to enjoy every last bit of it! Tomorrow we drive home. My husband and I are the workhorses for the family, carrying beach items and heavy suitcases while the rest of the family flies down here. I hope that the gas situation is improving. We drive straight home and will need gas along the way. So, this post will be short but quite interesting.
What is the SBC going to do about this? A gauntlet has been thrown down by Rick Warren of Saddleback Church. The Baptist News reports: Largest church in SBC ordains three women as pastors For those of you who don’t know, Saddleback Church is the largest church in the SBC. That’s right! The quasi denomination that, according to the Baptist Faith and Message, does not ordain women! Uh oh!!
The largest church affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention ordained three women as ministers May 6, sending shock waves through the male-centric leadership of the nation’s largest non-Catholic denomination.
Saddleback Church, founded by Pastor Rick Warren and his wife, Kay, in 1980, announced on Facebook that on May 6 it had ordained three women as ministers in a “historic night.”
On Mother’s Day, which fell three days after Saddleback’s ordination, the Sunday morning online message was given by Kay Warren. Although she is not among the newly ordained, her delivery of the Sunday morning message in worship was sure to further alarm the strictest of male leadership advocates within the SBC, who insist women should not preach sermons to men.
It has been a hard year for the SBC. Numbers in the SBC continue to decline. Beth Moore has ditched the SBC in search of a denomination that treats women with more respect. To top it off, there has been an exodus of well-known African American black pastors.
Baptist News Global reports that this situation at Saddleback could cause problems for the beleaguered SBC.
In recent years, the SBC has expelled churches from membership when they go against the denomination’s stated positions on key issues, such as LGBTQ inclusion. While local Baptist associations have removed churches for ordaining women, the SBC has not.
The Saddleback news, however, could push that issue to the forefront, as some SBC pastors immediately took to social media over Mother’s Day weekend to call for Saddleback’s expulsion.
JD Greear, having presided over a number of issues including sex abuse in the SBC, critical race theory, and the departure of Beth Moore, claims he is “disappointed” with Saddleback’s decision. I bet he can’t wait to end his presidency in June. Here it is, straight from the horse’s mouth. Saddleback Church and Women Pastors
This weekend, Saddleback Church celebrated the ordination of their “first three women pastors” in what they called “a historic night” for the church. Unsurprisingly, this has led to a lot of discussion over the past few days about the role of women in the church and the future of complementarianism.
While I have long respected Saddleback’s ministry impact and heart for getting the gospel to the nations, I disagree with their decision to take this step, and would even say I find it disappointing. As Pastor James Merritt noted, we can affirm both (1) that God calls men and women to vital ministry in the church and (2) that God’s Word clearly reserves the office of pastor/elder/overseer for qualified men. (That these three terms refer to the same office can be seen by comparing the three terms’ parallel usage in 1 Timothy 3:1–7, Titus 1:6–9, and 1 Peter 5:1–5. For more, read our position paper below.)
Reading on, you can see The Summit’s view of the position of women in the church. It is really quite simple. No Women Pastors or Elders. It’s the same old, same old no matter how much he *elevates* women. It hasn’t worked. There is a reason that Beth Moore said “Outta here.”
To make matters worse, Al Mohler blundered when he quoted from a slaveholding SBC founder. According to Baptist News Global:
Other denominational leaders stopped short of calling for expulsion but made their displeasure clear.
Al Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., and candidate for SBC president this summer, posted on Twitter a comment from John Broadus, one of the seminary’s slave-holding founders, about why women should not be allowed to “speak in mixed public assemblies.”
The real issue: What is the dilemma facing the SBC with this move by Saddleback?
OK. We could do the obvious and debate egalitarianism versus complementarianism just like this guy over at Julie Roys’ blog post on this matter: Saddleback Church Ordains 3 Women Pastors, Defying Southern Baptist Position.
It’s the same old set of arguments that will never be resolved. I want to try something different.
So let me spell it out.
- If the SBC does nothing, this opens up the possibility of other churches doing the same. But this flies in the face of the Baptist Faith and Message.
- If SBC central acts to remove Saddleback, this will prove that the denomination does have a hierarchy that can get rid of churches. This will provide fodder for the current lawsuits which are aimed at the SBC.
- Will the SBC attempt to get a local SBC state organization to throw out Saddleback? This could also backfire on the SBC.
So, what do you think will happen? Back to the beach. Coming home tomorrow.
1
Saddleback was on one of my pre-COVID alternate routes home from work. Big Box Mega off Santiago Canyon Road, with a dedicated four-lane bridge for its driveways across the ravine separating it from the street.
Don’t know much about it (other than that above), but in past blog coverage Rick Warren has shown (and talked) a lot more sense than your typical MegaPastor. This might be a shot across the bow of the SBC.
“Getting rid of churches” in the SBC only means they aren’t part of the denomination. They will still have services the next Sunday.
But most likely nothing will happen. Because Saddleback is important. Eastside Baptist of Whoville isn’t.
I wonder why Saddleback didn’t 1) leave the SBC and then ordain female pastors or 2) make a strong stand for female ordination within the SBC before Sunday and thus make these ordinations part of its protest? It seems odd to do something like that in direct defiance to the SBC Faith and Message. I’m not debating female ordination one way or the other, I’m just wondering why it was done this way. Anyone know? It seems like sometimes individual churches do things like this to see how the larger denomination will respond – kind of like searching for SCOTUS cases to bring up important issues.
What do I think will happen? A couple lone-wolf bishops of the Episcopal church did this decades ago in Philadelphia – ordaining 11 women without official authorization – launching a wave of schismatic departures and exmigrations that continue to this day, leading to the founding of a small denomination appropriating a name of an worldwide organization they are explicitly not part of. The SBC is larger, more complementarian, and infinitely more conservative. This will no doubt give TWW much to write about, and soon.
Is the SBC important? How about the JD fellow? What’s his shelf life?
Time to unpack this term, in real life.
Was Beth Moore ordained? Should she have been? Does it make a difference?
Is there required education involved?
There’s a lot going on here.
Men elevated them.
https://www.ranker.com/list/famous-female-pastors/reference
Ava Aaronson,
JD’s out of here in June and then back to The Summit.
Ava Aaronson,
I use the term “ordination” to describe an organization authorizing someone to perform a certain function or act in a certain position, usually in a religious sense. It’s the stamp of authority an organization puts on its officers. It doesn’t mean anything more than that in my mind. Some religious organizations ordain men and women, some only men. It’s basically what Paul instructed Timothy to do when he said “appoint elders”. It’s whatever the organization decides to do.
Those early irregular ordinations of women led to the regular and accepted and indeed welcome ordination of women in the Episcopal Church.
I know some mainline families who specifically sought out churches with both male and female pastors, so that their children would see women and men serving in all roles.
As a woman, I appreciate belonging to a congregation that has both men and women pastors. It is easier for me to talk about certain subjects with a woman, and I appreciate the education and training that are required for ordination. And yes, once in awhile it is refreshing to hear a sermon that touches on motherhood from a mother’s point of view.
The value of an individual church to the Southern Baptist Convention is measured in dollars funneled to the denomination … it really is all about who has the most bucks. Churches support SBC entities (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, etc.) via allocations to the “Cooperative Program” and Christmas/Easter offerings. In the case of Saddleback, this could be multi-million dollars annually directed to SBC. With that much at stake, the big boys may look the other way for a while. I suspect this matter will be a hot button item at the SBC annual meeting in June in Nashville … somebody will surely bring it up in open mic sessions at the conference … it could get very interesting, perhaps weeping and gnashing of teeth.
But the SBC limits congregational autonomy in this area.
Individual SBC congregations used to ordain women. Then they fired them all, some years ago, around the year 2000 I believe.
I’m talking in terms of what the SBC will do in this case. That should have been clear from my original post.
But if it wasn’t, here’s what I meant.
Saddleback gives a lot of $ and brings in publicity to the SBC. The fictional small town church I created, of course, does not. So Saddleback will be ignored, while the smaller church would be removed for the same offense.
They limit it only to the extent as to who can be part of the denomination. The church can be kicked out on Saturday and Sunday it still holds services. They can always join the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, the Alliance of Baptists, or become a true non-denominational congregation.
I spent 70+ years in SBC ranks (I’m done with them now, but not done with Jesus). During my long tenure as a Southern Baptist, some of the best Bible teachers I knew were women. Women were always the first to minister to the hurting. Women volunteered to lead various church programs and did so with excellence. Women should have been pastors in SBC all along … they’ve been filling that office without the title for nearly two centuries. In Christ, there is no distinction by race, class or gender (Galatians 3:28).
Here’s what they said when the “updated” Baptist Faith & Message was presented for approval at the 2000 SBC Annual Meeting:
https://www.baptistpress.com/resource-library/news/lifeway-releases-2000-edition-of-baptist-faith-and-message-tract/
“ORLANDO, Fla., June 14…messengers to the annual Southern Baptist Convention…approved a revision of the 1963 Baptist Faith and Message.”
“Adrian Rogers, the chairman of the Baptist Faith and Message Study Committee…said that in no way does the document, particularly the section on the pastorate, dictate who a Southern Baptist church may hire as pastor.”
“In answer to debate coming from the floor, members of the study committee repeatedly defended the…document, as a statement of belief and not as a binding or governing document on Southern Baptist churches”
“As Pastor James Merritt noted, we can affirm both (1) that God calls men and women to vital ministry in the church and (2) that God’s Word clearly reserves the office of pastor/elder/overseer for qualified men”
+++++++++++++++++++
does it now
office schmoffice
and i note that women do the work- the same work, and more- but without the fancy title and the corresponding fancy paycheck, and at most a fraction of a voice and a fraction of a vote. sort of a fraction of a person.
‘the office of’ is meaningless. as meaningless as a cardboard Burger King crown.
but if it’s that important to them to believe that the God of the universe wants them to wear cardboard crowns as a symbol of their manhood and God-ness and authority, then so be it.
i’ll be over here with so many others in the outside world, marveling at the ridiculousness of it all.
I am quite certain that as soon as the SBC kicks Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville out of their denomination they will work on kicking Saddleback out!
And representations made when it was published:
https://www.baptistpress.com/resource-library/news/lifeway-releases-2000-edition-of-baptist-faith-and-message-tract/
“NASHVILLE, Tenn….The 2000 edition of the Baptist Faith and Message tract became available July 17 from LifeWay Christian Resources of the Southern Baptist Convention…[after being] adopted by messengers June 14 at the annual meeting ”
“the Baptist Faith and Message outlines basic Baptist beliefs”
It is “not a binding document or creed”
“Work on the statement began after messengers to the 1999 SBC annual meeting in Atlanta approved a motion calling for appointment of a committee to study the statement and to bring a report to the 2000 meeting. Subsequently, a 15-member Baptist Faith and Message Study Committee was appointed by then-SBC President Paige Patterson.”
[among those appointed by Patterson to craft the BFM2000 were: Adrian Rogers (chairman), Albert Mohler, Steve Gaines, Fred Luter, Jerry Vines, Susie Hawkins, Richard Land]
https://bfm.sbc.net/study-committee-members/
Todd Wilhelm,
I dunno, Todd. Sovereign Grace of Louisville ain’t got no uppity women preachers.
It’s a much greater affront to SBC holiness to have a woman preacher than it is to have a sex offender/abuser/pedophile/adulterer/wife beater…….
SBCers in general don’t even take kindly to having a woman teach a mixed-gender adolescent Sunday school class, ya know with teenage boys in the class and everything!
Yeah, that’s a lie.
Not a single, solitary woman can show up for services in an SBC church, and there can still be church services. If not a single, solitary man shows up, there is no church service.
Not a single solitary woman can show up for a business meeting in an SBC church, and there can still be a full blown business meeting. If not a single solitary man shows up, there is no business meeting.
So, how can women be so “vital”???
SBC Conservative icon W.A. Criswell’s wife Betty taught “Some of the wealthiest and most influential businessmen in Dallas”
p. 130 in W.A. Criswell’s authorized biography:
https://books.google.com/books?id=iVrkAAAAMAAJ
“She teaches a couples’ Sunday-school class at the church”
Betty Criswell was still teaching her class at FBC Dallas when she died at 93:
2006 obituary
https://www.baptistpress.com/resource-library/news/w-a-criswells-widow-betty-dies-at-93/
“Betty Criswell, who led her 9:30 a.m. Sunday School class in studies throughout the books of the Old and New Testament, last taught on July 9….She ‘was a force in the church in her own right, not least by building a Sunday school class attended by 200 to 300 people and broadcast on radio throughout the region”
Yes, exactly. Throwing a church out of a denomination is not trivial. Nor is it trivial for a church to split from a denomination. “If you don’t like it, just leave” is rarely a feasible idea for a group of people who might have been together for generations, complete with the bodies buried out back.
I agree with your overall point, but people need to be ordained to do certain work in the church. In the SBC of course women cannot be ordained and therefore preach. In a lot of denoms, only ordained men and women can perform certain sacraments (baptism, confirmation, ordination, confession, absolution…).
This guy, Samuel Clark, that Dee quotes above, he’s not just against woman pastors, he’s against women in any sort of authority:
“They can ordain all they want but the God of our universe does not ordain women to be over men in spiritual leadership, or or any other part of society.”
*snort*
At my job, I have to use my soft power as the representative of my group to get things done (or not done). Last month I was on a call and we were discussing taking down one of our major payment flows for 15 minutes to run a file through during the business day. This made the hair on the back of my neck stand up and I said, “[My team] would prefer that you not do this until after the end of the day. Compared to the amount in that one file, bringing down this particular payment flow even for 15 minutes could have unexpected consequences [goes into brief detail]. I’m against it.” I’m not going to say that my word swayed them, but my experience certainly factored into the decision not to pull down the payment flow and the file got taken care of another way.
And yeah, I’m a woman.
And Beth Moore was/is a Bible teacher.
So, money. $$$.
who happen to be of a certain approved gender.
Kind of an affront to all of the mostly good guys among us.
2003 newspaper article describing Betty Criswell’s teaching ministry at FBC Dallas:
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/411853342/
“She led Bible studies at churches in Kentucky and Oklahoma, where her husband served as pastor before taking the reins at First Baptist of Dallas in 1944. And for the past 32 years, she has taught Sunday mornings before a class of 300 at First Baptist. KCBI-FM has aired the class at 930 am every Sunday for 25 years.”
“Her teaching attracts people of all ages, from young married couples to a few of [her] contemporaries. Dr. Ron Anderson, president and chief executive officer of Parkland Health & Hospital System, joined Criswell’s Bible study after listening to her radio broadcasts for years. The class ‘is a place you look forward to going to’, Anderson said…Criswell works through one book of the Bible at a time, alternating between the Old and New Testaments…At last week’s class, she spent an hour lecturing on the first half of Luke 18…Attendees followed along with their Bibles as she led them through related texts in the book of Daniel. She called on class member Lamar Cooper, interim president of Criswell College, for his take on the text”
W.A. Criswell said he “was never nervous before an audience except in his wife’s class, where he feared he might disappoint in comparison”…called her “the finest Bible teacher I have ever heard”…and “used to say that his wife devoted more time to her weekly lessons than he spent preparing his sermons”.
“‘The amount of time she spends preparing is phenomenal’, said the Rev. Robert Jeffress, 47, pastor of First Baptist Church in Wichita Falls. He likes to joke that he was exposed to Criswell’s teaching before he was born — his mother attended Criswell’s class while she was pregnant.”
Because if not a single, solitary woman shows up to the SBC potluck, there is no potluck.
And legally binding marriage ceremonies.
People conveniently forget (or maybe it’s an American thing because our social classes are a bit more fluid) that, throughout history, women in higher castes of society have ALWAYS held authority over men in lower social classes. Even in patriarchal societies.
I mean, can anyone really picture Lady Violet winsomely submitting to Sprat or Mosley?
Phoebe?
Paul in Romans 16:2 instructs them to “welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well.” (ESV!)
Let ‘em call a catering service.
https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2021/05/14/southern-theological-baptist-seminary-fire-destroys-apartments/5102302001/
May 14, 2021
“A ‘major fire’ destroyed multiple student apartments at the Southern Theological Baptist Seminary’s Louisville apartments Friday evening…All residents in the building evacuated safely, Louisville Fire Lt. Col. Mike Hendrickson said. He confirmed there were no injuries reported in residents or firefighters…fire officials believe the blaze may have started on an exterior balcony, but they are still investigating.”
Friend,
“people need to be ordained to do certain work in the church. In the SBC of course women cannot be ordained and therefore preach. In a lot of denoms, only ordained men and women can perform certain sacraments (baptism, confirmation, ordination, confession, absolution…).”
++++++++++++++
ordained schmordained
(sorry for how that sounded, friend)
i reckon women preach sermons in the SBC regularly at various functions, just not the Sunday morning function because they’re not allowed to touch the magic pulpit or the magic mic.
.
.
sacraments aren’t work, but rather incantations that are spoken. the fact that only special people can do it (sometimes dressed up in the christian version of a witch’s hat and cloak) gives it a magical aura.
i know this is coming across offensively or disrespectfully — let me clarify:
i respect the ‘sacraments’ (although that word has never been a part of my church experience). communion and baptism are just things we do, like taking vitamins.
i give myself communion; i’ve baptized myself a few times as a symbolic expression of newness of life, so to speak, because God redeems me.
.
.
i could perform all these sacraments for anyone and do a darn fine job. i might not have the magic permission in a given organization, but i’m still 100% capable and can do them elsewhere.
what i’m proposing is that women are doing all the functions, all the work, just without the magic office, the magic cardboard crown, the magic pulpit, minus the magic incantations (which anyone could do), and minus the magic garb (which anyone could wear).
.
.
women do it all, just without the hokus pokus.
it just seems so silly to me to spiritualize the male-hokus pokus with shock and awe, while women just get on with it and get the job done.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
this is such a good point!
i’m going to remember this one, …for just the right moment in just the right conversation with just the right person danging their male headship in front of me.
elastigirl,
dangling
Wild Honey,
ah, the magic minister who says some magic words and *poof* love is suddenly legal!
(i’m so sorry for how i’m sounding… it’s just been years YEARS of enduring so much silliness pretending to be gravitas… i can’t stand it any more)
Wild Honey,
“People conveniently forget (or maybe it’s an American thing because our social classes are a bit more fluid) that, throughout history, women in higher castes of society have ALWAYS held authority over men in lower social classes. Even in patriarchal societies.”
+++++++++++
yeah, it’s this thing that’s happening these days where people with influence decide to rewrite history and current events for their own opportunism, as if just saying the scripted falsehoods suddenly makes it true.
and then the simpletons hear it and read it, and just regurgitate it.
amazing, how easily it can happen. and how damaging and dangerous.
They’re laughing at most of us in this debate. Calvinism and “Armenianism”, or putting down women, were never any more important to the “neo-cals” as a whole than to the various factions of “baptists” as a whole. My hunch is the 2000 document was a pretend fad. Mohler’s job was to create a diversion to be seen to keep a visible element preoccupied. In “dialectics” each “thing” is meant to give way to the next “thing”.
Will they stop devaluing, rationing or vetoing the gifts in men OR women, girls OR boys? Because there are MANY ways of carrying ON doing all that. The more we waste energy on worrying about the latest identical variation, the less energy we’ll have to for seeking the right ministering for us and those around us.
If we tell seekers and the undecided that the surface is what is important, irregardless of whether the low key deadpan manoeuvres to quash the gifts in you and me, might be just as harmful as the over-the-top in-your-face ones, then they are going to think Jesus wants them to fall for superficial propaganda, and then Jesus will ask us questions about that.
Tactfully keep your conscience intact from whoever would breach your boundaries whatever trendy label they might put on themselves to make it look right. That’s the example the world needs, not one counter-pincer movement after another. The world understands justification with God very well, and it saw to some extent that there was no “what next” from at least SOME of the mega personalities. The “new Christian” apparently “stopped raging”. The REAL question to ask is: “what then?”
Not 10 years ago, Crosspointe had a female pastor but just changed the name to “Director”. But in function and practice, it was exactly the same position. I forget her specific title, but it was definitely pastoral in practice (I knew her). Something like Director of Discipleship. Crosspointe still has two female directors in less directly pastoral positions. So, I dunno if Greear was been misquoting Merritt here.
ishy,
To clarify, last I heard, Merritt only believed the position of “lead” pastor was reserved for men. Which would be contradictory to Greear’s statement.
There is a SBC church here with a similar setup, and women in pastoral positions titled “Minister” but not the “lead” pastor. And I suspect this is what Saddleback did, but was just honest and used the word “pastor”.
The SBC has had female in ministerial positions for years, even after the takeover. They just weren’t supposed to be ordained or called pastor.
Slowly Belying Complementarianism (?)
Reminder, JD Greear’s own practices at Summit Church have been chastised by Tom Ascol’s lieutenant Jared Longshore (Founders faction of Southern Baptists):
https://twitter.com/JaredLongshore/status/1125913457692483585
May 7, 2019
Jared Longshore: “I too was surprised with Owen [Strachan] to see @jdgreear, president of the SBC, endorse in the context of the church’s gathered worship service, a woman teaching and preaching to the corporate body.”
Jerome,
So they say but what happens when a bunch of SBC churches follow? I smell trouble…
Jerome,
Trouble a-brewing…
Heading home today on a 12-hour drive with gas shortages. This should be fun.
If things weren’t bad enough, it looks like a battle looming on the horizon between SBC’s “Old” Calvinists (Ascolites) and the “New” Calvinists (Greearites). Al Mohler and his Mohlerites tout New Calvinism but are really Old Calvinists under their skin. At the end of the day, Calvinism will win since the former non-Calvinist SBC is essentially dead. And, of course, Mohler will win too, slithering his way through the battlefield.
There is right now a chair of an SBC entity’s trustee board, whose church has a female associate pastor. Yes, ordained.
Saddleback is so big they are practically their own denomination. They could easily just separate and continue as they are. As long as I have been aware of Southern Baptists, they have needed to argue about something.
Linn,
Saddleback is huge, and it rakes in a lot of money, too. Hmmmmm, I wonder what is more important to the SBC leaders…… cash, or their so-called convictions?
I omitted the marriage sacrament because so many lay people can register as wedding officiants. Of course, it’s unlikely that many churches would let a lay person officiate inside the church building. But members of that church could have a ceremony in a hotel ballroom or on a beach, with a lay person officiating.
As a couple, DH and I needed to apply for a marriage license at City Hall and take it to the church. The officiant (an ordained woman btw) signed it, and we are able to get duplicate marriage certificates from our good ol’ local government.
Marriage was seen as a civil institution as early as Plymouth Colony. In colonial times, the town clerk recorded marriages (and births and deaths), even though couples might have had a church wedding. When any one church, such as the state religion, has monopoly control of marriage and birth records, all of a sudden there are lots of couples deemed to be living in sin, and lots of illegitimate children, despite couples having church weddings.
Yes, I understand. We are both talking about gatekeeping. I only wanted to point out that puh-lenty of denoms have been welcoming women into the official ranks of the ordained for a long time.
Fun fact, Margaret Towner was ordained in the United Presbyterian Church (now PCUSA) in 1955. And yet the SBC keeps on pretending that this is a Thing That Has Never Ever Happened.
They certainly don’t have anything to lose … losing the SBC wouldn’t be a bad thing considering the direction it is taking. A once-great evangelistic/mission-minded denomination is no more.
Yes, indeed. During my 70+ year tenure as a Southern Baptist (I’m done with them now), I grieved during congregational business meetings when the brethren and sistren fought over everything from the color of the carpet to the color of the preacher. Yep, there was a lot wrong with the SBC before the New Calvinists showed up to finish it off.
The New Calvinists took over the SBC for the stuff (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, 45,000 churches, huge Cooperative Program treasury). Through stealth and deception to accomplish this mission, they have proven they have no convictions.
I suspect that the New Calvinists, now firmly in control of SBC, will wink at Warren on this. IMO, the new reformers believed that SBC nickels and numbers would go up when they restored the lost gospel to the denomination (gospel = Calvinism). Since that didn’t happen and the beauty of complementarity is not as popular as they thought it would be, they will now appear more female-friendly … perhaps allowing wimmenfolk to run with the pastoral pack but never be the lead dog.
Well, that’s the thing about SBC ordination and weddings. Neither are sacraments. In fact, as long as you are male, if you want to get ordained, it’s really easy to find some small country church to do so. I knew a number of guys at seminary who did exactly that. I don’t really think SBC ordination is all that different from me going online and paying to become a legal officiant from some random website.
right on the SBC’s website: “the BF&M and resolutions are not binding upon local churches.”
https://www.sbc.net/about/what-we-do/faq/
“FAQS…Can women be pastors or deacons…The BF&M statement says, ‘While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture’…The Southern Baptist Convention also passed a resolution in the early 1980s recognizing that offices requiring ordination are rightly addressed to men. However, the BF&M and resolutions are not binding upon local churches.”
Mayhap they’ll hone their bronze swords to a keen edge and go to war just like Joshua did?
Now that would really be following the Bible!
They’ll even restore said miscreant to the pulpit rather than let a woman anywhere near the dang thing…
Friend,
ok, yes, I see.
it’s all so silly. ‘ordained’, ‘pastor’, minister, director, administrator, coordinator, assistant, volunteer, free agent…
all can be doing the exact same thing, it’s just that the more lofty the title the more of the emperor’s clothes you wear. ha, the pretense.
“…a function by any other name would perform as well…”
(well, if i can mix metaphors, might as well mix literary references, too)
And Quakers had women elders from their beginnings in the 1600s and women were certainly allowed to speak. The latter is probably the reason that most white female abolitionists who publicly spoke were Quakers.
Some interesting info in https://bwim.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Durso-final.pdf
“She-Preachers, Bossy Women, and Children of the Devil: A History of Baptist Women Ministers and Ordination” Pamela R. Durso
It gives info on Ruby Bixby who was licensed to preach in 1846 (Freewill Baptist). She was also a pastor. And also much else on other women ministers in the Baptist churches. This is more of a survey than in depth.
ishy,
Hmmm… “ordination”.
In contrast, the NT lays out qualifications for church leaders. Does ordination include these, ever? By any umbrella org? Does the org hold the leader to standards, so when he/she goes off the rails, the ordination is terminated? There’s a lot more to NT ordination than gender.
From the org participant POV (“pew” writes Max), when it is NT appropriate to NT terminate the org in regard to whom it ordains/not ordains?
Terminate would be walk away, pocketbook in hand. Church org participation, by NT definition is voluntary; not a cage. Following JC is never a chain gang.
Dee’ post, especially the concluding “possible” scenarios, is exactly why I am thankful I have a career in a “ secular humanist” education field. My world is FULL of politics, and I just accept it, and so do my colleagues… Do we grip, heck yes!! Do we try to do “the right thing”? yes, most of us… it is really a small number that are the real”bad actors”, and I think many of them are “a little off”…
BUT, we have NO “spiritual pretense”…
In contrast, just about everything in a “church” has “spiritual overtones”, or outright…. you are evil, I am righteous…. yet, given all the poo poo we read about on TWW, I think the politics are as bad if not worse..
SIGH….
I smell a SCAM dee, just another manufactured crisis by which big oil can jack prices at the pump.
Great analogy.
Yes, absolutely. When people spend three years at an academically rigorous seminary, their character might very well be observed and tested daily. I know of people who were refused ordination because they were cohabiting, and cohabitation was clearly against ordination rules in their denom. Seminarians might also be expected to participate in the campus community as a rough model for congregational life. They might find their attitudes challenged by wiser older faculty members.
Also, some denoms have a lay committee from the home congregation accompany the candidate from call to ordination and beyond. These groups are supportive and also challenging.
Yeah, well…….
The BF&M also affirms the “priesthood of the believers”/“priesthood of the believer”. But by definition, a priest is the equivalent of a pastor. So, if women can’t be pastors (priests), then how can we be Southern baptists?
Al Mohler very publicly DISSENTED from the 1984 SBC resolution against women pastors and their ordination:
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/8500722/the-courier-journal-4-aug-1984-southern/
August 4, 1984
“In the wake of the recent Southern Baptist Convention resolution on women, we the undersigned…express our disapproval of this action”
“Mary Kahler Mohler, R. Albert Mohler,…”
What will happen? The LCMS would kick them out post haste. The SBC will check to see how much $$ they contribute to various SBC coffers, then kick them out or bad mouth them and let them stay, depending on the tally.
No matter which side of women’s (and mens!) ordination you stand on, I can handle it. What turns my stomach is for a group to proclaim they do it one way and the waffle when the dollars hit the fan.
Actually I would respect the SBC if they ousted them. At least that would show consistency, and those for women’s ordination would be free to boycott them if they so choose.
“Thus saith the Lord …”
“Touch not My annointed . . .”
The god game.
In contrast, the book of Acts is just that, acts: an angel bringing disciples out of prison, Ananias & wife’s demise, Herod’s nasty death. There were acts of Jesus’ followers: unity, sharing, eating & praying together.
Talk is cheap. Evangelism as sharing the Good News falls short in the acts category, talk evidence by the reality of living.
OK Hebrews 11, the hall of faith gang that never saw on Earth their dreams realized, but they paid their faith forward with their very uncompromising lives. Faith lived.
It’s never just about talk & proclamation.
Jerome,
And in the aftermath? The follow-up?
It is worse because the “spiritual overtones” elevate Everything – EVERYTHING – to Cosmic Importance. GOD or SATAN, NOTHING IN-BETWEEN.
Look at Religious Dictatorships – even those of secular Pseudo-Religions like Naziism and Communism. Religious Dictatorships are often the NASTIEST of dictatorships, because every jot and tittle is of Cosmic Importance and the motivation is Cosmic-level Perfection of (My) RIGHTeousness.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Didn’t the SBC vote a congregation out of the SBC because they called a female pastor to lead pastor? There must have been little money coming in from that church. I’m sure they can split hairs on this issue to keep the cash flowing . . .
With Book of Joshua Rules of Engagement?
Book of Joshua: The Live Role-Playing Game – From Massachusetts Bay Colony down to today.
as of now, oceania has always been at war with eastasia, comrades.
Muff Potter,
The $5 million they payed to get back online will certainly be passed through to customers. 😉
You might want to hole up where you are for a couple more days until the supply chain gets restored. Though I’ve heard rumors of $7-a-gallon in Richmond.
Out here in Cali it’s normally $4 a gallon, but the joke is $3 of that is taxes.
I have lived through two schisms. They can really traumatize congregations and individual members.
People go to church for lots of reasons, one of which is to take a break from conflict in their daily lives, and to renew their commitment to living for a purpose beyond themselves. Weekly church fights completely undermine the Sabbath, while not actually teaching people the skill of resolving conflict.
There is a very good chance that people who are put through a schism will leave the church and never come back.
Reconciliation is one of the best principles of Christianity. Yet some churches would rather expel people than find common ground.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
OT
Here’s a recent breakdown for you. As you know, it varies a bit by region, availability, etc.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/story/2021-03-12/how-much-are-you-paying-in-taxes-and-fees-for-gasoline-in-california%3f_amp=true
Bobbed Hair, Bossy Wives, and Women Preachers by Stan Gundry | April 30, 2005
link: https://www.cbeinternational.org/resource/article/priscilla-papers-academic-journal/bobbed-hair-bossy-wives-and-women-preachers>
Victorious,
Link didn’t work, but I shaved its pandemic beard and got there:
https://www.cbeinternational.org/resource/article/priscilla-papers-academic-journal/bobbed-hair-bossy-wives-and-women-preachers
Friend
Thanks, Friend!
While it may be affirmed in SBC’s statement of faith, the New Calvinists do not preach/teach it. That long-standing Baptist doctrine, along with soul competency, have all but disappeared from SBC life.
Friend–this isn’t really a schism. A schism would have had Saddleback going FIRST to the SBC and telling them “here we stand, we can do no more” and THEN began working for a way to reconcile….or not. Instead they tossed a bomb and it appears now to have put the SBC in a no win situation. THAT, on the part of Saddleback, IS schismatic.
The SBC has been pretty cut and dried re women’s ordination for decades now. Saddleback doesn’t need the SBC, nor the SBC need Saddleback. Nothing changes for people now attending Saddleback if that church is tossed. Baptists join a local church, not a denomination. So it might be pretty heavy if a local RCC church is tossed from the RCC but not so in the SBC. Churches regularly decide who to “associate” with. There was no drama, no schismatic angst, or whatever when several former SBC churches where we lived back in 2000 chose to either be independent, or join the IFB or CBF or whatever. All that really means is where a certain percentage of your mission money goes. Your building is only at risk if you borrowed money from a state convention with a reversion clause.
So in the SBC world, this is more a publicity stunt by Saddleback than anything else. I would respect the SBC if they tossed Saddleback. I do not respect UMC bishops that are taking action contrary to the voted wishes of the majority of the UMC.
When an individual or a group joins an organization with upfront stated rules of the game, it is childish to break the rules with a “what are ya gonna do about it now” attitude. If you don’t like the rules, leave.
If the rank and file at Saddleback are good with the ordinations they have already made plain they disagree with the BFM2000(which I loathe). So go already. There need be no drama, and life goes on exactly as before. Nothing has to change come Sunday.
The SBC is large. Saddleback is large. While it most certainly may be painful to some individuals when their views are at variance with whatever large organization they join, that is not sufficient reason for the WHOLE GROUP to have to change their beliefs to fit the pained one’s beliefs.
The SBC should stand firm on what they believe. If their beliefs have changed, say so. Since that has not happened, Saddleback should have tried to change things through the vote, or left first.
I see it much as if a guy married a gal promising to be faithful only to her. And then a few years down the line decides he wants to change the rules to bring in a “sister wife” or to have an affair. And then tries to take the role of aggrieved, beleagured, poor pitiful guy when wifey tosses him to the curb.
Unilateral rule changes are an unfair expectation.
One possible outcome for Southern Baptists would be for a few respected and influential leaders to change their minds about women’s ordination based on a more credible reading of the few NT texts which get all the attention (1 Cor. and 1 Tim.) and then work to change the BFM so that local churches have the liberty to make their own decisions about who they want to preach and teach. The Holy Spirit has already been poured out on both men and women so that both men and women prophesy (Acts 2), but it would be a certifiable 21st century miracle if the Holy Spirit was able to penetrate the minds and hearts of the strong males who dominate and the weaker males who let complementarian theology continue to hold sway in the SBC. If God can stop Saul on the road to Damascus, let’s pray for divine intervention that creates a radical about face for Wayne Grudem and Owen Strachan.
To my knowledge, Rick Warren has not been actively involved in the SBC … doesn’t attend annual conferences, etc. Saddleback is most likely affiliated with SBC because of past agreement/identification with Southern Baptist belief and practice, as well as a channel to evangelize and support mission efforts around the world. Of course, those things have been diminished since the New Calvinists took over … so Saddleback is doing what it wants to now, knowing ordaining women pastors would draw fire from the New Calvinists but not caring what they think. If challenged, they will simply withdraw their SBC membership and put their big bucks elsewhere.
There are lots of SBC name brand pastors who are not involved in SBC annual conventions … for example, Matt Chandler … Billy Graham also didn’t attend the annual conferences on a regular basis.
No doubt that SBC is well-stocked with influencers … I just don’t know how respected they are in Christendom these days. Too much fussin’ and fightin’, along with shifting theology and identity.
The key wordage “qualified male” really says it all.
Max,
You make a good point, but do you believe that an act of God could bring dramatic change?
I think that would be a good outcome, if Saddleback took the initiative, and if its members really do not consider themselves Southern Baptists.
However.
Unfortunately, the discussions between people who consider themselves Southern Baptists and people who consider Saddleback their community might get ugly and painful. These things sometimes happen at coffee hours, and during the Q&A after presentations. People won’t put it as Saddleback vs. SBC. They will either favor women’s ordination or favor the One And Only Biblical Way.
It’s always easier to stomp on some uppity women than to take on the entrenched and credible manly leaders of the almighty pulpit.
Why do these guys hate women?
And, I’d remind Jared Longshore that the first proclaimer of the Resurrection was Mary Magdalene, a woman.
Just going to point out that we’re in the runup to Memorial Day and the summer driving season, and like clockwork, the prices have risen. They’ll be up all summer long, then drop after Labor Day. The pipeline thing just gave companies the opportunity to start jacking the prices slightly earlier.
One of my coworkers is from Greece, but now lives in Charlotte. He noted that gas prices were zooming up, but were still nowhere near the ~$10 that Greeks pay for gas (remember, it’s liters and euros and not gallons and dollars). He wasn’t so happy about the “pumps being out of gas” part.
And that would hit them where it really hurt – their pocketbooks.
elastigirl,
No worries. I was just thinking more about Friend’s astute observation, and the only thing I could think where ordination would make a difference outside of the confines of the church body would be marriage ceremonies (since marriage has legal ramifications outside of one’s particular religious observations).
Maybe this recommends to a further separation of church and state, where only government officials can legally marry people. Like other countries (Germany comes to mind) where a religious ceremony is optional; to be legally married, it must also be done by a judge.
Just wondering out loud, and wandering into the weeds.
Totally. I had a similar thought about the ease of lay people being able to register.
Funny you should mention, but of the twelve weddings I’ve attended (including my own), only two were actually inside of a church building. And all except one were “church-ey” couples getting married.
Times are changing, I guess.
I think that on a sub-conscious level they realize that women (for the most part) are the stronger of our species, and they’re jealous and angry.
Jealous and pissed off too about the sexual power of women, a gravitational constant that they don’t have.
I have officiated 77 weddings.
85.7% are still married. Of these 62% have been married over 30 years and 83% over 20 years. I require at least four counseling sessions and do not agree to do the wedding until we have met 2 or 3 times.
I told one couple I could not do their wedding because I did not agree with joining together a man a woman and his mother. He was not happy but his fiancee was sadly nodding her head in agreement with me.
There is a old saying, “Marry in haste, repent at leisure.”
contrast:
Albert Mohler (2019) “God intends for the preaching voice to be a male voice.”
Charles Spurgeon (nineteenth century), sermon “All at It”: “We read that, ‘As for Saul, he made havoc of the Church, entering into every house and haling men and women committing them to prison. Therefore they that were scattered abroad’ (and these must have been men and women) ‘went everywhere preaching the Word’.”
Spurgeon suggests that the “manner in which the sister in Christ expresses herself” in preaching can be more compelling to some listeners.
source: Mohler
Baptist News Global
https://baptistnews.com/article/mohler-says-women-should-not-occupy-the-lords-day-pulpit/
source: Spurgeon
Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary’s Spurgeon Center for Biblical Preaching
https://www.spurgeon.org/resource-library/sermons/all-at-it/
There are many Southern Baptists these days who no longer consider themselves Southern Baptists. I became one at the end of my 70+ year SBC tenure, but held on a while thinking New Calvinism would go away. When it was clear that wouldn’t happen and that the new reformers controlled everything, I left. SBC is changing too much and too rapidly, belief and practices are shifting, folks are bailing out. SBC’s reformed church planting program – at 1,000 new churches per year – is trying to replace the 1,000 non-Calvinist churches which close per year for various reasons. The new bunch won’t miss Saddleback, only its money which they have been using to Calvinize the SBC.
Jerome,
That’s crazy! So what’s the point of the SBC?
From the SBC website: “The SBC is a collection of like-minded churches working in cooperation with one another to impact the whole world with the Good News of Jesus Christ.”
Except the New Calvinists now in control of the denomination don’t talk much about Jesus.
Max,
Apparently they’re not as like-minded as they’d like to believe.
That’s because “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus” is largely ignored these days.
To add to that, in the US couples can be married by a justice of the peace. A religious ceremony is not mandatory. A marriage license is madatory (issued by counties). This is a legal requirement that makes the marriage legal in the US and protects the legal rights of the couple. I’m personally glad that the government stepped in here. The church hasn’t done a very good job of protecting married women.
If reddit were to be believed, this happens way more than 1 out of 77, though. LOL
I spend a good bit of time exploring the issue of leaving your parents to cleave to your spouse. I have had couples delay their wedding to work through this issue. Some made progress others did not.
Except in Alabama where the couple now just has to submit a notarized form, no ceremony at all. https://www.alabamapublichealth.gov/news/2019/08/20.html
More like “IA! IA! CTHULHU FTHAGN!”?
Recently on the Mystery & Meaning blog, one commenter wrote to “Google ‘calvinism cthulhu’ sometime” and see what comes up:
https://uncertainvoices.wordpress.com/2018/04/18/the-cosmic-horror-of-calvinism/
https://hallofdoorsblog.wordpress.com/2017/12/01/calvinism-and-h-p-lovecraft/
And on a much lighter note: https://shirtoid.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/cthulhu-and-hobbes.jpg
Interestingly, the first Scripture reading for today’s daily Mass is the passage in Acts where *both* Priscilla and Aquila take Apollos aside in order to instruct him about Jesus more fully and accurately. Luke strongly implies — nay, states — that Priscilla participated in this educational enterprise!
Erp,
Wow. That is interesting.
Dee,
Since the LCMS doesn’t ordain women to the pastorate, do you have a problem with the SBC’s position regarding ordination women to the pastorate?
Jerome,
Context is everything Jerome as you well know. Before your Spurgeon quote, he says this – “ There is nothing whatsoever in the whole compass of Scripture to excuse any mouth from speaking for Jesus when the heart is really acquainted with his salvation. We are not all called to “preach,” in the new sense of the term, but we are all called to make Jesus known if we know him.“
Then after it he expands your quote saying – “What a minister is she to her family! A Christian woman in single life — in the family circle, or even in domestic service— what may she not accomplish, if her heart be warm with love to her Saviour! We cannot say to the women, “Go home, there is nothing for you to do in the service of the Lord.” Far from it, we entreat Martha and Mary, Lydia and Dorcas, and all the elect sisterhood, young and old, rich and poor, to instruct others as God instructs them. Young men and maidens, old men and matrons, yes, and boys and girls who love the Lord, should speak well of Jesus, and make known his salvation from day to day……If the church of God should once wake up, it will be as the sea when it returns to its strength after a long ebb. The Lord send it— send it now! But he will only bless the world in his own way; and one of his conditions is that the whole church should move. We must come back to the primitive custom: every Christian must be a herald of the cross.”
Dee, I’ve looked semi hard and it appears you cannot find a church that was founded solely by a woman and has thrived and survived with the woman at the helm. They do not appear to exist. In the black community you will find numerous churches founded by a woman but they do not appear to be strong or well attended.
You will find largish churches where women have been installed as senior pastors; but they do not appear to stay long.
So just pragmatically speaking, women do not appear to do well as senior pastors. They almost don’t exist except in the mainline where dying churches will have a female at the helm [ mainline ran out of male pastors 2 decades ago ].
I am not Dee, but here’s my perspective. The first “lady minister” I saw was a powerful example, over fifty years ago, and I prefer denoms with male and female clergy. However, if I had to change churches, I would consider healthy congregations with male leadership—whether it was a small place that happened to be led by a man, or a denom that does not ordain women.
The key word is “healthy.” The SBC has turned women’s ordination into a Biblical Hill To Die On. It allowed “autonomous” congregations to ordain women, and then changed its mind. In more recent years the SBC has devised ever more elaborate arguments for excluding women. The SBC denies its own history of recognizing women as teachers, preachers, and missionaries. There’s also the rather large issue of the SBC’s vacuous handling of abuse.
This denom does not show signs of facing challenges and change graciously. It just keeps finding more ways to slam the door, and more doors to slam.
But what if the judge says no? In reflecting further about this, that only works if the government is a just gatekeeper. Right now we might think that congregations are more restrictive than government, but that has not always been the case.
In parts of the US, it was illegal for people of different races to marry until the US Supreme Court issued the Loving v. Virginia case in 1967. Sometimes governments change their minds, too, and decide to ban things that were previously legal or not addressed by law.
Government is always the ultimate gatekeeper in marriage, for reasons of property law, heirship, etc. Still, I think a society is better served when a variety of voices (many officiants) are heard, and the government sticks to record keeping and public health with regard to marriage.
Those “elaborate arguments” caused a huge split in SBC ranks during the Conservative (aka Calvinist) Resurgence. Many churches exited SBC to form the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, where the spiritual gifts of female believers are embraced rather than excluded, where women have a voice and ministry as God calls them.
Rick Warren wrote “purpose driven life”. This book was such blatant market manipulation telling you that God’s purpose is to get you into a church and start paying dues.
My wife’s church tried it’s program complete with canned sermons from Saddleback itself. Book starts with a covenant and the church instituted a membership contract after the program completed.
As far as I was concerned the point was to get paying bodies in the seats and keeping them there by getting them to promise, before God no less, to stay.
Didn’t seem to work, I didn’t see the church attendance go up. I fact after that program, it was the beginning of the end for church and I.
I think Rick Warren sees the way the wind is blowing and giving the customers what they want. The motivation is either to entice more followers or keep followers there. Warren is big on market research so probably has the data to back his choice.
I wasn’t even aware Saddleback was SBC. Wonder how many attendees were aware.
Btw “purpose driven” material was very popular at garage sales for a while. Warren made his cash and I’m not sure his program was helpful.
Check out the young Al Mohler’s view on this in a student Q&A shortly after assuming the presidency at Southern Seminary in 1993. His cold, robotic stare and “I’m right; you’re wrong” smirk are unsettling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk_VQgsjFz8&t=14s
There are numerous SBC churches where members are unaware of SBC-affiliation … particularly, the 1,000 annual church plants where New Calvinism is planted with SBC funds taken out of the pockets of non-Calvinist church members around the country. Heck, church members of current SBC President J.D. Greear did not know they were Southern Baptist until he ran for that office!
Complementarian ideologues do not want to be confounded with facts, especially when they come from the Bible.
Wayne Grudem has done a whole tome [Evangelical Feminism & Biblical Truth – An Analysis of More than 100 Disputed Questions)] in which he ‘debunks’ passages in Scripture which are at odds with Complementarian ideology.
Yes, I see them all the time while looking for fishing tackle. Discarding religious books of that sort is usually a sign that a movement is over, rather than passing them to friends and family. I long for the day to see Piper books selling for a quarter! (not to buy them, but to rejoice that Piperism and New Calvinism have fallen out of favor)
Cult leaders always do this. They go through elaborate gyrations of taking text out of context to support their aberrant belief and practice.
Max,
Gerrymandering the Bible.
Jack,
You have that right!
SenecaGriggs,
First, you are not answering the questions I asked. For you, this is another argument.
However, you didn’t search hard enough. Try Bent Tree Church. There are others (and these women are conservative, BTW.) That is as far as I will go with you on this subject. Yes, I know you don’t want women in the pulpit. That is not the subject of this post. The subject is far more interesting than the typical screeds like this.
1) Does he debunk them with SCRIPTURE(TM) Verses?
2) The name is “WAYNE GRUDEM GO WAYNE GRUDEM!!!! (sparkle sparkls sparkle SQUEEEE!!!”)
And given that Saddleback does not seem to need SBC then they can do whatever they want.
Anyway I thought SBC wasn’t a denomination. Thought the church was free to do as they are “called”.
It could be a dare. SBC does nothing, oh well.
SBC kicks Saddleback out and Warren takes on the mantle of protector of the masses.
Or maybe Warren really doesn’t like Calvinism. Kills his “feel good” vibe.
And that vibe is what keeps him popular.
I don’t think Hawaiian shirts were worn in Geneva.
Look semi harder. I can think of several Christian movements founded and led by women. When people die, their influence might very well live on, but a lot of denominations and groups have fallen by the wayside over the centuries. Should we blame men for the current-day lack of Dowieites? Why yes indeed, we should.
You’ll find things if you look for them. No fair shutting your eyes.
Technically, SBC is a “convention” of like-minded churches (which are not really). Practically, SBC is a denomination given its structure of various entities supported by 45,000+ SBC member churches. Individual churches are autonomous and free to act as they wish as long as they conform to the “denominational” statement of faith (the Baptist Faith & Message, 2000 revision).
… which the New Calvinists have mastered to a fine art. They manipulate selected Scripture to favor their aberrant theology … a theology which has been rejected by 90+% of Christendom for the last 500 years.
Colorado recognizes common law marriage. All a couple has to do is present themselves to the world as husband and wife. They need not cohabit first. That means you will need a divorce should you decide to split. When we lived there a whole lot of folks were living out the first half of the law, but conveniently ignoring the second part when they split up.
An old friend starting living with her boyfriend. She told me they were having trouble getting her on his truck insurance, so they told the agent that she was his wife. Should have seen her go white as a sheet when she learned that now the state considered them legally wed.
Warren has been elusive over the years on whether he is a Calvinist or non-Calvinist and has stayed out of the SBC fray in this regard … except we get some insight here:
“Theologically, I am a monergist and firmly hold to the five solas of the Reformation. It’s pretty obvious from the book that I believe in foreknowledge, predestination, (see chapter two, “You Are Not An Accident”) and, especially, concurrence — that God works in and through every detail of our lives, even our sinful choices, to cause his purposes to prevail.” (Rick Warren)
https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/is-rick-warren-a-calvinist.28785/
Max,
Max, the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship is essentially dead –
Friend,
Ah, if there was only an example you could give me. In a country this big and diverse, there must at least be a couple of churches founded and maintained by a woman but you can’t easily find them. You CAN find women Evangelist/teachers/”prophets”/speakers etc. in abundance. You can find women who started movements. But finding women who founded and continue to pastor growing churches is difficult.
Dee, I suspect Saddle back will dis-associate itself from the SBC. [BTW, I’m not SBC, haven’t been for decades.]
Actually, scripture does not require both man and woman to leave their parents.
Gen 2:24 For this reason a man (eesh) shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife (ishshaw)and they shall become one flesh.
This rule of marriage is mentioned in Matt. 19:5, Mark 10:7, and Eph. 5:31. Jesus left His Father and His heaven’s abode to come and cleave to His Bride, the church.
Dee, I checked out two or three “Bent Tree”[s] – none women led. Briscoes have long since left their Benttree fellowship who’s senior pastor appears to be a man
Victorious,
Katharine Bushnell does an excellent treatment of the ‘leave and cleave’ thing in her book God’s Word to Women.
Eph 5:31 FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.
Eph 5:32 This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. (CAPS in NASB)
SenecaGriggs,
Churches don’t always thrive or grow under male leadership, either.
Mark Driscoll, as but one example, has at least one failed church under his belt, and he’s looking to ruin the second one.
Looks like lots of testosterone and a lone X chromosome is not a guarantee for success.
Maybe if Christians could get the biologically intersex to head their churches.
Muff Potter,
Yes, Muff, I have her book in hard copy which I bought many years ago, but it’s also here on the internet:
https://godswordtowomen.wordpress.com/100-lessons/
And just because a church is large, doesn’t mean it’s healthy. I think we’ve seen countless examples of that, including Mars Hill.
There were a lot of Methodist churches and international churches founded by women. Women figured prominently in the entire Methodist movement since John Wesley licensed Sarah Crosby in 1761.
Victorious,
Ephesians 5:31-32 … folks get hung up on the first verse and miss the overall message in the second.
Amen!! Mega is sometimes small in God’s eyes. In my area, I can think of several “mini” churches which demonstrate better spiritual health than the megas which entertain crowds every week. They may be small in number, but they have pastors who love and care for the flock and members who minister to the hurting in the community … while the megas sway to the beat.
When the music minister of my sister-in-law’s small SBC church resigned, she volunteered to lead the music and choir programs until they could hire another one. She is a talented and experienced musician so they were glad to have her. For THREE years she functioned as unpaid music minister, leading adult and children’s choirs and congregational singing. At the end of three years the church announced a search for a new music minister and she applied for the job, the one she had been doing for free for THREE years. They declined to hire her, because, wait for it, she’s a woman and woman can’t lead in a SBC church.
It’s hypocritical stuff like this that led me away from the SBC and into the Episcopal church. My pastor is a woman and she’s a very good pastor. She leads a vibrant and active parish and she’s a pretty good preacher too. I’ll never again be a member of a church where I’m a second-class citizen.
There are NO second-class citizens in the Kingdom of God … only in the religious kingdoms of men. In Christ, there are no distinctions in race, class or gender. Men and their theologies enslave you … Christ sets you free.
Christine,
“At the end of three years the church announced a search for a new music minister and she applied for the job, the one she had been doing for free for THREE years. They declined to hire her, because, wait for it, she’s a woman and woman can’t lead in a SBC church.”
++++++++++++++
women do all the work, & more, without the magic donger of privilege.
ishy,
I think it’s strange that a Complementarian would use such points in support of their view anyhow…
I don’t recall the Bible saying one can or should use the crowd size of a church or the popularity of its preacher to determine if those in charge are competent to do so or should be in charge.
“So the last will be first, and the first last.” (Jesus)
Let me quote from a SBC blog’s comment about SBC on Abuse victims. Same should apply to woman pastor (/sarcasm)
“in my view since the SBC as a convention ordains no ministers, hires no ministers, supervises no ministers, and has no power to fire any local church minister. An independent investigatory body would have no power to do anything in regard to the local church…”
The magic dongers will not see the 22nd century.
Their shtick is dying out, and they’re runnin’ outta’ gas…
… and volunteering your time.
Excellent comment. This is how that book read to me, but I wondered if I was the only one.
Your entire comment unpacks a lot. So, thx. Much appreciated – your insights.
(Personally, I’ve always seen my purpose as serving widows & orphans, and among them, the least of the least, which doesn’t fit with most books, theology, sermons, church programs, etc. Yet, there is plenty of work to do, so my Kingdom purpose calendar is plenty booked.)
Friend,
Friend,
I’m an Episcopalian and have no problem with the ordination of women. I was simply asking how the SBC’s stance was any different than LCMS’s.
Blinkers, this made me laugh. When I was in high school “dong” was a slang, and I’ll leave it there. This probably the only religion blog where one can have a Beavis and Butthead moment…
Oh boy, you guys are killing me!
The book seemed to be written for a house audience. I can’t see anyone new to the faith signing a contract to stick with the program… before G-O-D. I think he compared it to the covenant with Abraham or some such crud. I don’t think Abraham had to sign anything.
Anyway I signed my copy “Sqinky the Wonder Squid” before it went in the recycling bin.
He and all the guys had to have surgery, which became tradition.
Thanks for clarifying. In my answer I was trying to assume that you were asking in good faith.
I’m still not Dee, but…. 🙂
All of these male-led groups point out that Scripture has no record of women as Jesus’ disciples. That alone I can deal with. What bothers me is what else a group does to exclude women, or anybody else who would like to participate fully.
Gilbert Bilezikian’s post on “WHY JESUS CHOSE MALE APOSTLES” is very helpful.
https://godswordtowomen.org/Apostles.htm
SenecaGriggs,
You didn’r search hard enough. Pete Briscoe appointed Joanne Hummel as a pastor. She is now the co pastor of the church. I know her personally and was quite friendly with Pete.
SenecaGriggs,
I’m getting irritated with you. This is about comp for you. I want to discuss another matter. To make matters worse, you are wrong in your research.
Scripture also has no record of acolytes assisting Jesus during his earthly ministry.
Does that mean Churches should not have them?
And by extension, they should not be performing duties during services?
The Bible is a great and wonderful thing but I also think that it’s possible to get carried away with it, to the point where human freedom and initiative get squelched.
dee,
I wonder who Mr. Griggs ‘really’ is.
Indeed, the Bible is a great and wonderful thing!! I can’t lay it down. It truly is a Living Word: “For the Word that God speaks is alive and active; it cuts more keenly than any two-edged sword: it strikes through to the place where soul and spirit meet, to the innermost intimacies of a man’s being: it exposes the very thoughts and motives of a man’s heart.” (Hebrews 4:12)
Unfortunately, men have used it as a weapon for personal gain and power, distorting Truth into mistruth and half-truth to control others. They will pay a price for that.
Jack,
“…and as he happeneth upon her labouring as she did scour the cup and platter from the evening meal, lo, a schwing from heaven was sent to his holy male headship and being so moved he declared “my fair maiden is without a leader, therefore must i lead her in all leadership”. thus with his donger that dangleth, lo, he stood beside her stalwart as her covering, and there he tarried long for so greatly does she require man to guide her in all her endeavors.”
Well, we KNOW he has a dong.
Otherwise, why would he be so much into “Woman, Submit!”?
In the words of the prophets Buckner & Garcia:
“TWANG YOUR MAGIC TWANGER, FROGGY!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZmrpu2Uw48
I’m guessing it’s ‘Jimmy’ from olden times here at The Watch.
If memory is correct, I think he got ejected by our blog queen for siding with an abuser in that long ago past.
That musta’ hurt like hell.
I wonder how many of em’ didn’t make it cuza’ sepsis and gangrene.
Depends onbthe state. Texas has common-law marriage, which is proven by three things: intent, holding out as married and living together. My parents thought they’d been legally married in CA (long story, they weren’t). They were legally married in Texas by opening a joint checking account and living together.
When I was 36, my dad was getting close to retirement age, soy oarents thought it might be a good idea to get documentation if their common law marriage and wnt down to the courthouse. Another long story short but my mother made the ckerk backdate her marriage to the date of the California marriage, not the first day thry lived together and held out in Texas (something something about making her kids illegitimate).
At the very end of the story she admitted to misspelling my name on my birth certificate. I have not fixed it. I’m not sure I want to.
Maybe because of the patriarchy that is completely shot through our society, Seneca? As a guy you’re likely not to notice.
Women were considered male property up until rather recently. Perhsps Jesus was acting within the patriarchy of his time and did not call women as discipkes for that reason.
That said, if one believes Jesus is God, you’d think he’d be able to work it out so that the first witness to the Resurrection was a man, not Mary of Magdala. Way to undermine the authority of the male disciples!
Both, and. It’s why I read the Bible myself, and sometimes keep my own counsel in that regard. Yes, the enemy used the Word of God in tempting Jesus Himself. Jesus likewise answered back.
What happens if people live together with joint checking, but both of them don’t WANT to be married to each other? Does the state override their wishes?
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
SenecaGriggs:
Dee, I’ve looked semi hard and it appears you cannot find a church that was founded solely by a woman and has thrived and survived with the woman at the helm. They do not appear to exist.
—-
Muslin reply:
Maybe because of the patriarchy that is completely shot through our society, Seneca? As a guy you’re likely not to notice.
—
Daisy says to that:
Thank you for mentioning that.
Many churches are complementarian and ban women from being leadership positions, and women raised in comp churches (as I was) get sexist, defeatist messages from the time we are girls which heavily discourage us from chasing down any dream or goal that does not involve “being married and having children.”
We are taught that anything that does not involve being “June Cleaver” is us “wanting to be men.”
It’s no wonder there haven’t been more women preachers or leaders in churches, when many churches and denominations prohibit them in the first place, or send messages that women have no value – leadership is for men only, they say.
Women were also banned from serving in combat positions in the U.S. military for many years, yet, I’d see sexist chuckle heads online mention “but there aren’t many women in the military, especially not combat roles.”
Well, yeah, that’s because they weren’t permitted to enter those roles, even though some of the ones that did enter said they wanted to (because promotion largely came thru serving in combat in some branches).
There’s nothing like a person or group creating a problem (or rules) and then criticizing folks who fail under the problems (or rules) they created to begin with.
For the most part, either state or local associations expel SBC churches – they do have the authority and bylaws to do that. Very rarely has SBC as an entity in its entirety expelled a church. Here within the last 2 years or so, the ELRC did “disfellowship” 4 churches, I believe, for keeping pastors/staff members who were proven to be sexual deviants or abusers in some form or fashion.
But, hey, Brian Lorrits is still a pastor at J. D. Greear’s church. Maybe it’s not what they did, but who they know???
Not a fan of GB, but here is an interesting explanation:
https://godswordtowomen.org/Apostles.htm
After all, all church leaders are not Jewish, like the 12 disciples were. Neither are they male, like the 12 disciples were.
Since we are discussing gender & leadership among Evangelicals, here is an interesting study from the “Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion”:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jssr.12717
The parallels for Evangelical women searching on the internet would be … recipes for Chocolate Chip Cookies? IDK.
Ava Aaronson,
Is “Pastor John” around today? I’m sure he’d have an interesting reaction to the study.
Yes, he adds that the all-(Jewish)-male tradition ignores Pentecost.
I would also say that religion is allowed to move with the times. For example, we are no longer required to live in the Roman Empire.
Seneca
You are irritating me. You are attempting to discredit Joanne by calling her nice, lovely, etc. which is a far cry from calling her theologically competent or a good preacher. It would be like me calling a make pastor handsome or chivalrous. etc. I’m not approving the rest of your comments. I wish I could send you back to the Internet Monk.
When evidence lights the room: google search record.
Research:
“Linking Evangelical Subculture and Phallically Insecure Masculinity Using Google Searches for Male Enhancement” by Samuel L. Perry & Andrew L. Whitehead
11 March 2021 https://doi.org/10.1111/jssr.12717
dee,
The Bible nowhere states that being pretty, lovely, or nice are disqualifying traits for a person to be in leadership or in a pastoral position.
But that’s the whole point of those rules!
I’m not sure exactly what the dispute is about, but would guess it concerns women being written off as merely decorative.
Awhile back I joined an academic program that had just started admitting women. Trust me, some men spent a lot of time ogling us and letting us know whether or not we added value by giving them something to look at. Did they want to talk about research? In many cases, no. A few resented our presence and yet wanted us physically. They could not wrap their primitive minds around the idea of an intelligent woman with something to add.
Friend,
“Awhile back I joined an academic program that had just started admitting women”
++++++++++
for real?? i mean, not the freemasons but as you say an actual “academic program” that still found a way not to permit women until the relatively recent past?
how commonplace is this in academia? if anything is enlightened beyond caveman existence i would have thought academia would lead the way.
Jack,
Risque humor aside, the point is that those brands of Christianity who still deny women full enfranchisement, will not see the 22nd century, they will die out.
Friend,
My point is that comps like to cherry pick & take out of context biblical verses as grounds to prohibit women from being pastors, in the guise they are being faithful to the Bible,
not like the non-comps, who supposedly “cave to culture” & “play loose” with scripture…
Yet some of the comps appeal to non-biblical premises to defend their position, which they swear is entirely “biblical.”
linda,
Very well said. It was news to me that Saddleback was an SBC church. Even so, if they believe the BFM is wrong, there is a process by which they could try and change it. If you go about the process and the change you want doesn’t happen, you can just leave. Saddleback is basically its own denomination anyway. And there are other Baptist groups that do ordain women.
Muff Potter,
I assume you are referring to the ordination of women as pastors/elders. If so, this is most unlikely. The Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox aren’t going anywhere anytime soon. Worldwide, most Anglicans do not ordain women. The LCMS is doing just fine. The conservative Reformed churches the United States continue to do fine with membership.
Whatever one believes about women’s ordination, maintaining the male only position isn’t hurting the bodies that hold to it. In the modern West, the bodies that have embraced it are the ones dying out. Pentecostalism would be the exception, but it’s been my experience that even in those Pentecostal bodies that allow it, male pastors are far more common.
Equivalent programs for men and women existed in the same geographical area. I arrived shortly after they admitted each gender to the other gender’s programs. (This was a thing for a very long time… Harvard and Radcliffe is probably the most famous example.)
At my institution, the women’s programs were more open to including men than the men’s programs were to including women. As a result, for some ten years, the net number of opportunities for women declined because men would not give women roles in their fiefdoms, whereas the women said to the men, “Welcome!” That eventually evened out.
Assuming that you are referring to women’s ordination, correlation is not causation.
The US mainline churches hit a high point in the 1950s and have been declining since. More recently, church membership and religious participation overall have been falling off in the US. I don’t think anyone has proven that ordaining women is leading to the demise of these denominations. Conflict might, if people fail to listen and reconcile; but churches can have wild conflict over just about anything.
Apart from all of that, is a fear of decreased attendance a good reason to keep doing the same old thing for another couple of centuries? Why shouldn’t a group do what it judges to be right?
Final point: The Roman Catholic church might not be dying out, but it has a critical shortage of priests.
I don’t know about the rest of the world, but from the Anglican Church of Canada website: https://www.anglican.ca/ask/faq/ordination-of-women/
From: Ordination of Women in the Anglican Church of Canada (Deacons, Priests and Bishops)
“After the enabling legislation was passed by General Synod for the second time in June 1975, the first ordinations of six women as priests, took place on the same day, 30 November 1976, in four dioceses across Canada.”
“The first woman bishop in the Anglican Church of Canada was the Rt. Rev. Victoria Matthews. Bishop Matthews was elected Suffragan Bishop in the Diocese of Toronto on 19 November 1993. She was consecrated 12 February 1994.”
researcher,
Katharine Jefferts Schori was the first woman to serve as presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church in the USA, and the first woman primate in the Anglican Communion. Controversy and schism occurred during her term; these had been brewing for a long time.
The Anglican Communion is a network of national churches, each with its own Book of Common Prayer and governing structure. Ordination practices somewhat reflect the mores of each country. Problems can arise when one national member church determines that another national church has it all wrong, and tries to impose its will on another national church.
elastigirl,
Pugs are inspecting my reply. 😉
“SNIFF SNIFF SNIFF SNIFF SNIFF SNIFF SNIFF SNIFF SNUFFLE SLURP!”
Friend,
Sure on the correlation not being causation, but I was responding to the idea that if churches don’t start ordaining women, they’ll disappear. That hasn’t happened and if anything, evidence might point in the other direction. As far as membership declines across traditions, sure, though it’s a little more complicated than saying “the same thing its happening everywhere.” For all the statements about evangelicals, for example, also being in decline, they’ve actually held their own as a percentage of the total population. The mainline hasn’t. It’s cratering, and for many reasons. I suspect also that some of the purported conservative decline is also churches finally being honest about who is actually regularly involved. The SBC has long had inflated numbers because they weren’t good about cleaning up their membership rolls.
“Apart from all of that, is a fear of decreased attendance a good reason to keep doing the same old thing for another couple of centuries? Why shouldn’t a group do what it judges to be right?”
Well it certainly should not be a primary motivator. As you know, a lot of churches make decisions to change merely because they think they will attract more members. A group should do what it judges to be right, of course. Changing to approving of women’s ordination because one thinks the Bible actually teaches it, for instance, is better than changing because one thinks that’s the way to get people coming back to church. If people want a female preacher, there are lots of options already. By and large, people who are presently not in a church aren’t suddenly going to want to go to church because the SBC or (insert denomination here) decides to start ordaining women. If they really want to be in a church, they’ll find one today. They aren’t staying away because of conviction regarding women’s ordination. The only people who care about the issue are people who are already church members somewhere.
It will be interesting to see what happens in the Roman Church if the shortage of priests continues. I would be surprised to see them alter their theory of priestly ordination in the next hundred years, but I would not be surprised to see it change sometime in the future if the wider culture maintains its egalitarian trajectory. Rome has, after all, changed its mind a lot in history, but at the same time, I don’t think an egalitarian trajectory is guaranteed. History does have ways of surprising us.
researcher,
I’m fairly certain that most of the Anglican churches in the developing world don’t ordain women. Certainly not as bishops.
Muff Potter,
No disrespect intended. I completely agree.
Have you ever noticed that egalitarians don’t make a career out of cherry-picking Scripture in this regard. They don’t have to! It’s pretty clear that Jesus came to set folks free, with no distinction in race, class or gender. You have to torment Scripture to make it fit complementarian theology and agenda.
Robert,
Thanks for such a thoughtful reply.
At this point I only hope Christianity can survive its own scandals and the bad behavior of too many Christians.
Institutional Christianity is on a rapid decline for various reasons: https://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/
At the end of time, the Bible refers to only a “remnant” of believers. We are trending in that direction with each passing year. But, Praise God, there has always been the Church within the church, the genuine among the counterfeit, the precious needle in the haystack, the treasure buried in the field.
Robert,
I spoke in broad generalities, there will always be exceptions, holdouts that have no intention of allowing change.
And so it is under the big envelope of Christendom.
On the other end of the spectrum, then there’s this:
“Imagine thinking it’s ok to hear the gospel preached from a cartoon tomato but not a real life woman.” – @JaymesLackey
Among churches, you may be right. But the non religious are growing in leaps and bounds, outstripping both mainline & evangelical. All those mainliners went somewhere.
I daresay much of Christianity has become a game of passing water from leaking bucket to leaking bucket.
Sure, it’s going to take longer than my lifetime but Christianity doesn’t have as big a say at the table as it once did.
Everything from same gender marriage, to gender rights to roe v Wade to prayer in schools. The world is getting more secular every day.
So I agree with Muff on this one
Thank you for all the information, Friend. 🙂
Until not too long ago, I didn’t realize how many different “flavours” of Christianity existed….so many different labels, different creeds and doctrines, etc.. I knew some basics, I knew (not always accurately) bits and pieces about different groups….
(And the more I read about the different “flavours” of Christianity, the more I understand why there are so many broken people, so many victims….and the more I read, the more I realize that there’s a lot I don’t know or understand….very big sigh.)
(In my planning to return to physically attending the Anglican church once COVID-19 restrictions are lifted, I had looked up the Anglican Book of Common Prayer online and not known which one to buy….another very big sigh.)
Which edition does your Anglican church have in the pews? If you want to carry your own copy into services, that would be the one to get. Here are a few of the many other editions, which you can explore online.
The 1662 (British) edition has enduring qualities, although worship practices have moved on since then. It’s online at oremus dot org (which has lot of other great things, including a Bible search feature).
The Episcopal Church uses the 1979 edition issued by Church Publishing. It has both Rite I (thou) and Rite II (you)… to oversimplify! It can also be found at oremus dot org.
Some of the other Anglican denominations and congregations use the 1928 US edition of the Book of Common Prayer. A .pdf version is at justus dot anglican dot org.
If you want something a little more exotic, A New Zealand Prayer Book is very highly regarded. It’s here: https://anglicanprayerbook.nz/
Pondering this spelling and wondering if I need to research more editions… 🙂
Ava Aaronson,
“I tell you, if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.” (Jesus)
Friend,
Feeling rather dim-witted, but here’s a link:
http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/canada.htm
Friend,
Agreed. The good thing is that judgment begins at the household of God.
Jack,
I think that’s a very provincial view. The West is certainly getting more secular. Traditional Christianity of all stripes, however, is doing just fine around the world. Jesus will build his church with or without the West.
And people really aren’t getting less religious. They’re just choosing a different religion. Human beings are always going to worship something.
Now do Africa. Seriously.
At my parish (actually a little rural mission), we joke that Americans used to send missionaries to evangelize Africa, and now Africa is sending missionaries to evangelize America.
Our current pastor is from Cameroon. Our previous pastor is from Cameroon. Our fill-in priest is from Cameroon.
Notice a pattern here?
And it’s a common pattern across America, from what I hear. Not only for Catholics either.
I don’t know which edition of the BCP my Anglican church has in the pews, as I have not yet physically attended there. (I’m guessing the 1962 edition, as that is what is listed on the Anglican Church of Canada website). I “strayed” – in terms of physical and / or online attendance – to a few other “churches” since the last time I physically attended an Anglican church. I feel so lost….
I don’t know which edition of the BCP was being used in the last Anglican church I physically attended – I did not know then that there was more than one. I only remember being unhappy with the introduction of the Book of Alternative Services (BAS). But then, I have changed a lot since that time.
I now own quite a few different hardcopy Bibles, and I’m REALLY tempted to buy more than one edition (in hardcopy) of the BCP – I’m one of those people who (much as I know paper uses up valuable resources) loves (and prefers) to hold the physical book in my hands, physically flip back and forth through the pages, physically compare copies….and I don’t think I could ever (no offence to anyone intended) write in my Bible (except, perhaps, my name, to identify me as the owner?).
Yes, I live in Canada 🙂 (the land that can confuse people because we use both UK and US spelling). And – from what I have read in his comments – quite a distance away from (TWW commenter) Jack. (I empathized with him when he commented on salt on the roads.)
Once again, Friend, thank you for all your helpful links and information.
The Great White North, Eh?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PAe4KzypHY
Please say more about this. It unnerves me as a Christian to say that some people do not worship any god, but I have known quite a few non-religious folks. I don’t believe that they are worshiping themselves, their bank accounts, Hollywood, science, etc. They are not less moral than I.
Now that we’re the ones in need, they’re returning the favor.
Which is why the Rushdoonies, Seven Mountains Mandaters, and all the others are desperate to seize POWER (any way they can) and make sure THEY stay on top.
“Targeryen, Lannister, Baratheon – all the Great Houses want to stop the Wheel permanently with themselves on top.”
— Tyrion Lannister, Game of Thrones
I thought that Rabbi from Nazareth didn’t play the Game of Thrones…
GREAT ONE-LINER!
Yes, it’s true. In my experience it runs the gamut. Christianity was taken to colonies around the globe, commingled with local cultural mores, and is now being exported again, sometimes with missionary messages that were frozen in time.
My town has a small Prohibitionist stronghold, exemplified by African Christians who came here from a part of Africa with a large Muslim population (so who knows where the objection to alcohol originated?). Our local mainliners politely hide the wine when they all meet together. And I have fond memories of my strict teetotaling Methodist grandmother. I guess it’s all a grand continuation of Pentecost. 🙂
Well somebody needs to! I’m convinced that a great multitude of churchfolks in America don’t know the Lord. One of the greatest mission fields of lost souls on the planet is now the American church! There’s not enough real-deal faith in most religious communities to label them “Christian.”
🙂
(Although, for all I have a tendency to adopt speech patterns and / or words of other people, for some weird reason I have never used the word “Eh” a la Bob & Doug McKenzie….)
Robert,
“The West is certainly getting more secular. Traditional Christianity of all stripes, however, is doing just fine around the world. Jesus will build his church with or without the West.
And people really aren’t getting less religious. They’re just choosing a different religion. Human beings are always going to worship something.”
+++++++++++++++++
well…., define secular.
i’ve grown up christian, and have shed a shipload of christian nonsense: rules, customs, and ways of doing things based on a few things:
1) people mimicking each other in vocabulary, speech patterns, facial expressions, body language
2) habit — this is how it’s always been done. no one seems to know why, but no one really cares to find out, either.
3) “biblical” — because this is what NT church did it
(like, since the NT says “and they ate together”, therefore our church tasked desperately busy moms with planning meals for the church so they could “eat together”.)
4) peer pressure. because the current prevailing doctrinaires say so
(the ones with the most power, like John Piper, Wayne Grudem, TGC, etc). the fact that it was harmful and stupid didn’t factor in.
.
.
all of it the result of the insular christian cultural bubble. all of it qualifying as a sense of spiritual magical-ness.
all of it nonsense.
my life and my belief in God have been stripped down to what’s practical, basic, and simple.
i don’t resemble “christian”. i resemble any of the billions of kind-hearted, honest human beings.
would i also resemble ‘secular’?
it’s like this: if i resemble secular, it hasn’t changed my belief in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit and enriching experience of them one iota.
I was told by a UMC minister that the reason most UMC churches use grape juice instead of wine at communion was due to an agreement they made with Welch of Welch’s grape juice back when. Had to do with a large donation.
Anyone know the rest of the story??
elastigirl,
Secular—having no place for God or His church, no regard for it, ignoring it, etc.
I’m sorry that you have apparently suffered under a lot of legalism. Most of what you are complaining about in that list isn’t Christian.
Friend,
Religion can be very subtle. But everyone is serving something or someone. It might be a deity from another faith or it might be personal success, happiness, etc. Some of the things you list. Anything can become an idol.
One can worship idols and still be moral. Someone who has made their career success their ultimate goal in life, for instance, can still be a good neighbor. That isn’t going to save them, but we can still recognize that it is possible to be a nonChristian and still lead a moral life, at least outwardly.
My only point is that people may get more secular, but even that turns into a form of religion. Some of the most religious people I know are crusading secularists who want the complete banishment of God from the public square. Those same people can be exemplary when it comes to loving their wives and children, and doing other good things. You don’t need Jesus to be a nice person or to do good things for others.
“…at least outwardly”?
At one time I would have agreed with you, but I no longer hold these beliefs.
I won’t try to read your mind, but here are messages I was taught to carry inside. “All my non-Christian friends and neighbors were going to Hell,” I thought. This included most of my baptized, churchgoing, Bible-reading relatives who were not quite Christian enough for me.
Regarding non-Christians, I thought, “Oh, they might not be worshiping God, but surely they are worshiping something.” I look back and wonder why I thought so poorly of worship. Did I really think that someone could so easily replace God with a big house and a nice car, as we were taught in church? No. They are not the same thing. People without God do not worship a car. If we actually take the time to ask them, they will tell us what gives meaning to their lives. But we don’t; we are too busy informing them that they contain a God-shaped hole.
As a Christian, I would like to see less religion in the public square. These days, the only thing Christians do in the public square is try to mark their territory.
So that’s where I was and am. You are thoughtful and complex, and you are in a somewhat different place. Blessings to you. 🙂
Christianity is doing just fine around the world? Maybe Christians are but missionaries have been at since Paul and really the only big win was the Roman Empire.
Most Christianization from that time occurred on the point of a sword or gun. In North America most of the indigenous population that wasn’t wiped out by disease and forced collectivization into reserves was then sent to schools to ensure their heathen faith was completely stamped out.
For other mission fields – China 3%; India 2%, Japan 1%, Thailand 1%, Cambodia 1%, Indonesia clocks in at a whopping 10% – not really stunning numbers.
Ok – Africa is 49% Christian but the colonial powers had a field day carving up that continent. Now many countries that are the colonial legacy are stuck in countries with other people whom they don’t share ethnicity or language leading to a state of perpetual destabilization.
We did get a glimpse though of what would await the rest of us in the “evangelical paradise” of Uganda – death sentences for all who don’t meet the moral code.
Even the Middle East – birthplace of Jesus is only about 5%. There’s a mosque where the temple is supposed to be and I don’t think it’s going anywhere soon.
And don’t forget Turkey (0.4%) – why did Constantinople get the works? Nobody’s business but the Turks.
Look, I’m not saying this is the fault of modern day Christians but “doing fine” is in the eye of the beholder.
I think that if Christianity want people to buy what on sale there’s going to have to be a bit more buy in. I don’t think that’s going to happen without including the 52% of the population that is denied leadership in patriarchal religious systems.
That’s my “provincial” take on it.
Friend,
” If we actually take the time to ask them, they will tell us what gives meaning to their lives.”
Sure. But that thing is their God. They might not worship it overtly, but they do. I’m also not saying that everyone with a nice car, for example, worships that car. You can own a nice car and not worship it. If the God of the Bible is real, something will fill the void that is left when He isn’t worshipped. It might be unconscious, but it’s there.
I wouldn’t say that people easily replace God with anything. My own opinion is that most people in the West don’t give a whole lot of thought to what ultimately animates them, including professing Christians. Idolatry is very subtle. The Bible warns us about it again and again. I’ve been a Christian for most of my life, several decades at least, and I still find idols to worship.
” “All my non-Christian friends and neighbors were going to Hell,” I thought.”
Well, that does seem to be what the Bible teaches. The Apostles certainly seemed to believe it. Dying for Jesus doesn’t make much sense at all if you can go to heaven without believing in him.
“This included most of my baptized, churchgoing, Bible-reading relatives who were not quite Christian enough for me.”
No doubt some churches convey this message. That’s why I think it’s important to be in a church with a well-defined confession and book of church order. It helps one to draw important ecclesiological boundaries but not limit the kingdom of God to one idiosyncratic sect.
“You are thoughtful and complex,”
Thanks, and you as well. Blessings
I remember someone telling me years ago (at the peak of Bob & Doug) that their accent was actually an exaggerated rural/backwoods Ontario dialect.
As was said of the origin of Bob & Doug, “SCTV in Canada was longer (due to less commercials per hour) than in the US, but those extra minutes had to be filled with ‘Canadian Content’. And we game them ‘Canadian Content’ – what’s more Canadian than a couple hosers sucking down beer and frying up back bacon?”
(I suspect the original intent of ‘Canadian Content’ was Quebecois…)
https://www.umc.org/en/content/communion-and-welchs-grape-juice
Max,
Thank you, Max. It is more accurate to say that Welch’s grape juice was developed as unfermented wine, in response to temperance activists’ demands not to have alcohol at Communion. That’s a nice history.
It ties in with my early experiences at my grandmother’s Methodist church, where they still eschewed both alcohol and gambling. Lest we think it was all fire and brimstone, that church also secretly helped a Japanese-American family that had been sent to the town after release from an internment camp.
We attended an SBC New Calvinist church plant one Sunday when communion was served (I used to do that to see what made these new reformers tick). At communion time, the whippersnapper “lead pastor” flippantly declared “I bought the cheapest grape juice and crackers I could find at Walmart this morning. Grab some on the way out!” The young crowd laughed; we grieved.
I would have grieved too. Guess there is no more room for solemnity or contemplation in some churches. Or even basic respect for their own traditions.
A United Church I attended for a short time used grape juice for communion. And if I remember correctly, they told me using grape juice for communion had something to do with the historical merging with the Methodists.
From the Wikipedia entry on the United Church of Canada: “The United Church was founded in 1925 as a merger of four Protestant denominations with a total combined membership of about 600,000 members:[4] the Methodist Church, Canada, the Congregational Union of Ontario and Quebec, two-thirds of the congregations of the Presbyterian Church in Canada, and the Association of Local Union Churches, a movement predominantly of the Canadian Prairie provinces. The Canadian Conference of the Evangelical United Brethren Church joined the United Church of Canada on January 1, 1968.[5]”
I don’t think I ever heard an explanation for why some people use the word “Eh”. From what I remember, the use of the word “Eh” was pretty much interchangeable with how some people used the word “Hey”.
(For some reason, maybe because of people I met or heard, I always assumed “Eh” was a Canadian usage and “Hey” was an American usage.)
Anglican churches ordaining women (outside the usual suspects). Note the lists are not exhaustive as there are a large number of Anglican churches.
* Church of Southern Africa (best known for Bishop Tutu).
* Church of South India (most recently in the news for violating Covid-19 rules in a meeting of priests which turned into a superspreader event)
* Church of North India (though no woman bishop ordained yet)
* Episcopal Church of South Sudan
* Church of Kenya
* Church of Uganda (though no bishop yet)
Those allowing women priests but not bishops include
*Church of Burundi
*Church of Kenya
Those not ordaining women as priests include
*Church of Nigeria (though it has women deacons; the Church of England btw had deaconesses starting in the late 1800s)
*Church of the Province of Central Africa
*Church of Pakistan (though it has women deacons)
The diocese of Sidney in Australia does not ordain women (this is the wealthiest diocese in the communion due to large land holdings granted in the early days of colonization). The rest of the province of Australia does.
As an aside those with the most members at least nominally: England, Nigeria, [and then a big drop to] Uganda, Kenya, South India, South Sudan, Australia, Southern Africa….
The new reformers have entered SBC life like bulls in a china shop. Long-held Baptist traditions and sacraments have been replaced by pulpit irreverence by the more radical of the bunch. It’s a toss-out-everything-godly religion which makes me spiritually sick.
Denomination founded by a woman:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countess_of_Huntingdon%27s_Connexion
“The Countess of Huntingdon’s Connexion…founded in 1783 by Selina Hastings”
Biography of the Countess used to be a recommended read at 9Marks central!
https://web.archive.org/web/20080315075851/http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/we-provide/book-recommendations/
I assume by “new reformers” you mean Chairman Calvin’s Red Guard?
I understand you also find “Eh?” in Yooperland (Northern Michigan), so it might be a regional thing around the NW shores of the Great Lakes.
The Countess of Huntingdon’s Connexion, 2021:
https://www.cofhconnexion.org.uk/about-us
note:
“the Countess retained a personal interest in every one of her Chapels and made the final decision on ministers’ appointments”
The Connexion’s Rosedale Community Church:
http://rosedalechurch.org/about.html
“a Christ centred community dedicated to impacting Cheshunt, our nation and beyond with the love of God in the power of the Holy Spirit”
“Bethany Green (Pastor)
A member of the church since 2008, Bethany was invited to be the minister in 2018 after completing her B.Th. with Spurgeon’s Bible College and being ordained by The Countess of Huntingdon’s Connexion.”
Now imagine that from a Catholic POV, given the great importance Catholics put on “the Body and Blood”.
It would have been like the Ultimate Sacrilege, an Abomination of Desolation enthromed in the Holy of Holies.
That’s what saddens me so. There are some traditions that refrain from Communion (e.g., Quakers), but they don’t mock it.
Yes, as former UMC I knew the official version re the juice. What our interim pastor told us was that Welch in later years made a large donation contingent on the continued use of juice rather than wine. So now the UMC at least in the USA could not change that policy officially or they would have to return said funds with accrued interest. I wondered at the time which version was true, and tossed out the query thinking if anyone else had heard what Pastor L. said there might be truth there, if not, maybe she was misled.
I knew the Church of the Nazarene was drifting badly when we encountered serve yourself come and go communion. Now, for the record, some UMC churches we have known understood some people could not attend at the stated time and would set up a very reverent altar, quiet music and lit candles, and someone would stay and there would be a time of private prayer and come and go communion made available. All very reverent and tied in to the church body.
I am talking about a couple of Naz churches that would not take time out of the rock concert they held for communion, but once a month would put, yes, “the cheapest juice we can find and some crackers that were in the church kitchen” out on a side table near the back, and if anyone wanted communion they were to go and help themselves but please “do not interrupt the flow of worship.”
We returned to the Lutherans.