2 Southern Baptist Leaders Arrested Within 3 Weeks of Each Other For Child Pornography, Social Media to Blame

“Oh for the old days, the old days when NO restaurant was open on Sundays. Oh for the days when ‘blue laws’ were in effect all over this country. But, those days are gone. There are a significant amount of people who appreciate that the streets of our city could be just a little safer with no Sunday sale of liquor.”

William Milam, “Guestview” for the Pensacola News Journal.  July 17, 2016.

The Wartburg Watch wrote about William Milam on December 16, 2020.  Milam, arrested on December 14, 2020, was charged with two counts of promoting sexual performance of a child and twenty-five counts of possession of child pornography. Milam was the pastor of Olivet Southern Baptist Church at the time of his arrest.

Source: ABC3 WEAR-TV

The Wartburg Watch has obtained the arrest record report, as well as other court documents in this case. You may read the arrest record below, but be advised they contain graphic descriptions of child pornography contained on electronic devices belonging to William Milam. If you find this type of information offensive please don’t read the arrest record below.

Arrest Record for William M… by Todd Wilhelm

Note that LE found a suitcase belonging to Pastor Milam that contained “adult sexual enhancement devices” and “young girls socks.” I will spare you Pastor Milam’s explanation for these socks, but left unasked was if the socks had come from young girls that the Pastor had sexually molested.

Pastor Milam also admitted he “preferred viewing images of children around 12-15 years old” however he admitted that he possessed images of children 8-9 years old. Five of the felony counts contained images of 3-5-year-old girls. I guess Pastor Milam conveniently forgot about those images!

In the court record below, you will see that on December 28, 2020, it appears that the now-former pastor of Olivet Southern Baptist Church, William Milam, plead not guilty to the 27 felony counts he is charged with. You may be wondering, as I am, why Milam plead not guilty when, after being advised of his Miranda rights he proceeded to sing like a canary to the agents who were questioning him. Granted, Milam doesn’t seem to be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I assume he was acting on the advice of his defense attorney, so there must be some logical explanation for this. Perhaps this is the way the game is played and a plea-bargain will be worked out in the future, I really don’t know.

The next court appearance for Milam is scheduled for April 8th. The Wartburg Watch will be tracking this case and plans to keep you updated. In the meantime, if you or anyone you know has children and has ever had any dealings with William Milam, you would be well advised to have a serious conversation with your child. I would not be shocked to find out that Milam has done more than just look at child pornography on the internet. Additionally, my guess is this guy has been engaging in these activities for years.


Approximately three weeks after Southern Baptist Pastor William Milam was arrested another Southern Baptist church had one of their Elders arrested. John Griffin was a lay Elder who ministered to senior adults. This from a Ministry Safe news release:

John Griffin was a member of Riverbend Community Church. (Prior to 1998 the church was named First Baptist of Ormond Beach, but like so many Baptist churches, they changed their name, apparently, the word “Baptist” in the name  scares people away, therefore many Baptist churches go stealth mode, enabling them to attract the unsuspecting!)

Here is a list from the “Resources” page of Riverbend Community Church’s website.

Yep, potential members should be happy to know they can find Riverbend Community Church listed on both the 9Marks and Founders Ministries websites!

Obviously, I would not claim the SBC, 9Marks and Founders Ministries approve of child pornography, (just as the Roman Catholic Church does not approve of child pornography or pedophilia)  yet I suggest that it would be a worthwhile endeavor to examine why pedophiles seem to find a haven in these types of churches.

Below are the 30 felony counts Elder/Pastor John Griffin has been charged with. Once again it appears a wolf has snuck into the sheep-pen, even though he was undoubtedly thoroughly examined by the Riverbend Community Church pastors prior to being allowed to become a card-carrying, membership contract signing official member. (In the video where Pastor Scott Menez explained the John Griffin scandal to church members he mentioned the super intense scrutiny with which they examined John Griffin prior to ordaining him as an Elder. Another fail.

In addressing church members, Pastor Scott Menez seems intent on making it clear that John Griffin is a lay Elder/Pastor, not a paid staff member. I don’t really understand the point of this. Does Menez think that a paid Elder is incapable of doing what Griffin has done? Or is it perhaps an attempt to minimize the damage, you know, keep members from leaving Riverbend Community Church in droves?  And then Pastor Menez, while advising people not to judge John Griffin because nobody has spoken to him makes the comment that social media is evil!  Go ahead and judge the evil press and social media, but don’t judge Griffin.  OK, gotcha Pastor Menez. I grow weary of the tiresome screed trotted out every time some man of the cloth is discovered to be a horrific sinner. I guess it frustrates these leaders to have no control over the minds of the rock-throwing rabble, nor can they control the conversation.

Give it up Pastor Menez. While nobody is denying John Griffin a fair trial and the presumption of innocence by a jury of his peers, it is not a reach to suspect that when Law Enforcement swarm your house and upon examining your computer find 200 files of child pornography it’s not a reach to say this guy has a lot more to worry about than news reporters and social media gossipers.

More of the same from Pastor Menez.  Social media bad, very, very bad.

And now we have heard what the real issue is in the eyes of the salaried Elders. Their job is to protect the church, and by church I don’t believe Pastor Menez is talking about the individual believers, but rather, the 501C3 corporation. Or to state it in plain English, the paid staff are worried about their paychecks.

This last clip amazes me. Church members are not to gossip “till they know the truth.”  So gossip is acceptable after that?  And if nobody knows anything, nobody has talked to Elder Griffin, how can you possibly justify removing him from office? I smell hypocrisy here, but anything goes when your job is to protect the church, right?

The good ship SBC is listing heavily to port and I see no hope of recovery. Time to deploy the lifeboats, paid staff board first, of course!

Comments

2 Southern Baptist Leaders Arrested Within 3 Weeks of Each Other For Child Pornography, Social Media to Blame — 84 Comments

  1. I am confused. Our justice system has NEVER been about keeping people charged with a crime secret. We now live in a culture that information can be more rapidly presented, and it is harder to try “put a lid on it”. How does that make “social media bad”??
    So, either these two “charged fellows” have lots of child porn on their computers by choice, or it was planted. I do not know about the preacher in tapes or not, but I sure do not, and most people I know , DO NOT have kiddie porn. The preacher says we do not know, huh? I find it really hard to believe that cops plant hundreds of kiddy porn photos on peoples computer???

    W/to the first, guy does it not surprise we he likes cite old… “ it use to be so-much better in the old days”.. yup, especially in South when you were a rich, white slave owner…

  2. “In addressing church members, Pastor Scott Menez seems intent on making it clear that John Griffin is a lay Elder/Pastor, not a paid staff member.“

    I must have missed a distinction in the NT — or in the marks of a healthy church — concerning paid / unpaid as far as the worthiness of “leadership“. But what does it matter if worthiness is essentially to be assumed by the title held?

    https://thouarttheman.org/2016/12/29/9marks-churches-unhealthy/

    (Dever) — “The kind of trust that we are called to give to our…leaders in a church, can never finally be earned. It must be given as a gift–a gift in faith, in trust more of the God who gives than of the leaders he has given.”

  3. After watching the videos, there is the question: The pastor mentions protecting the church from Satan & the world; does he mean protecting children (as these cases both involve porn that violates children), or is he indicating protecting an institution? Perhaps I missed it, but does he ever mention concern for the violation of these children?

  4. My heart skipped a beat when I saw the photos of the “Elders”. Since when has SBC had woman elders? Is this a progressive SBC congregation? Then I saw the caption,”Elders and their wives.”
    Progressive SBC congregation goes back to being an oxymoron.

  5. Other posts that may interest those of you here include a weekend discussion on familiar preachers you have talked about here proclaiming empathy to be sins on Warren’s blog and commentary on the SBC bigwig and his black employee “pastor” who is not qualified to lead by Julie Roys. You might want to check those out too.

  6. JDV,

    This is a very interesting observation…. I agree, why should “being paid, on staff” matter?? Are we supposed to be under “more authority” if they are paid?

  7. “… apparently, the word “Baptist” in the name scares people away, therefore many Baptist churches go stealth mode, enabling them to attract the unsuspecting!” (Dee)

    This deception is quite common in SBC’s church planting program. You want find “Southern Baptist Church” on the sign out front. Most members of SBC church plants (aka reformed theology plants) don’t have a clue that they are Southern Baptists. Affiliation with SBC is neatly tucked away in a remote corner of the church website, if mentioned at all. Church planters conceal their identity, but don’t have a problem taking SBC church planting funds.

  8. “Church members are not to gossip “till they know the truth.””

    Ahhhh, the gossip card … it’s used frequently to silence the pew. In my long journey through SBC life (I’m done with them now), I found that the church grapevine was often more truthful than the church leadership spin on things. See something, hear something … say something! “Gossip” your head off until someone listens … children are at stake.

  9. Loren Haas,

    “Then I saw the caption, ”Elders and their wives.””
    +++++++++++

    oh, how i love to exist only in relation to a man with a name.

    but my knees start knockin when i’m a nameless entity known as the “and their wives” species.

  10. Max,

    As we have seen in most of the “Cases” discussed on TWW, there is some aspect of the “powers that be” to hide/cover abuse… and in many cases this hiding/cover up results in more people abused in the future, let alone the damage to currently abuse person by “negating” their abuse “for the sake of preacher boy/church”. And, the first card to play by the enablers is “gossip”!

  11. Ava Aaronson:
    After watching the videos, there is the question: The pastor mentions protecting the church from Satan & the world; does he mean protecting children (as these cases both involve porn that violates children), or is he indicating protecting an institution?

    Since Kiddie Porn and Child Molesting has become a Privilege of Pastoral Rank (“Touch Not Mine Anointed!”), you do the math.

  12. Loren Haas: My heart skipped a beat when I saw the photos of the “Elders”. Since when has SBC had woman elders? Is this a progressive SBC congregation? Then I saw the caption,”Elders and their wives.”

    Properly Winsome and Biblically Submissive Wives.

  13. “Wolves” in “sheep clothing” have always existed both inside and outside the church.

    Always will as long as both are inhabited by people.

  14. I find it highly unlikely that I will ever attend a church service again. Even weddings, the past few years, I’ve skipped the service part.

    And I’m just your run of the mill “done”. No abuse or particular bad experience.

    How many people are going to give church a miss in the ‘new normal’? Once they realize how much freedom they can have without church.

    I know milage can vary but it seems the benefits of church are becoming less than the risk.

    This doesn’t help. In fact my kids were going to go to the church youth group at my wife’s church. Not liking the idea so much right now.

    Yes I know this happens in the secular world but God is a powerful force multiplier.

  15. Jeffrey Chalmers: “powers that be” to hide/cover abuse … “for the sake of preacher boy/church”

    Yes, happens too often … a potato is protected until the potato becomes too hot to handle. Then it becomes “Hybels who?” … “Driscoll who?” … MacDonald who?” … and countless others of lesser notoriety. At the root of the problem in most churches is an unspiritual deacon/elder body, who are yes-men who should be shouting “No!”

  16. Jack: Yes I know this happens in the secular world but God is a powerful force multiplier.

    God becomes weaponized like a Hex-man’s familiar spirit.

    Both Pennsylvania Dutch and Appalachian lore are full of Hexen and Witch-men and Conjure-men using their bound spirits/supernatural powers as personal Enforcers to extort goods, money, and sex from those around them.

    What was that about “As Witchcraft(TM)”?

  17. Max: Yes, happens too often … a potato is protected until the potato becomes too hot to handle. Then it becomes “Hybels who?” … “Driscoll who?” … MacDonald who?” … and countless others of lesser notoriety.

    From Hero of The Party to doubleplusunperson.

  18. Jack: How many people are going to give church a miss in the ‘new normal’? Once they realize how much freedom they can have without church.

    Just so long as the new normal doesn’t wanna’ make church illegal.
    There hasn’t been a ‘freedom’ yet that doesn’t wanna’ curtail somebody else’s freedom.

  19. Muff Potter: Just so long as the new normal doesn’t wanna’ make church illegal.
    There hasn’t been a ‘freedom’ yet that doesn’t wanna’ curtail somebody else’s freedom.

    This is what an authoritarian church would want you to believe.
    “They” (government, the other political party, aliens – both extraterrestrial & illegal) aren’t to trusted.
    This includes police, prosecutors, social workers and anyone who isn’t ‘us’.
    If you live in North America, it is highly likely (in the extreme) that your local government contains a large number of Christian believers or those raised in a Christian culture.
    That includes all the agents of that government from law enforcement to sanitation.
    This idea that Christianity in the US & Canada is being persecuted is false.

  20. I usually just read and don’t comment here, but I’m a former Southern Baptist member and also a former reformed Baptist. I used to be quite enamored with organizations like The Gospel Coalition, 9 Marks, and The Founders. I think abuse flourishes so much in these circles because the men have such a ridiculous level of power and control, particularly over the women and children. Plus, it is constantly drilled into the members that we must “respect” our leaders (in other words, unquestioning obedience). Southern Baptists in particular are problematic. I know this has been pointed out many times on this blog, but I can say from my own experience that there is nowhere to go when you need help dealing with an abusive pastor. Each congregation is supposedly independent and so nobody in the convention wants to get involved. When our family went to another Southern Baptist pastor outside our church to get help, we went to someone we trusted and who we considered a close friend. But to our shock it was quickly turned around to be a problem with us! We were causing trouble, we weren’t supportive enough of our pastor etc. We were also told, “Being a pastor is such a hard job, that if I have to choose between the word of a pastor and the word of a church member I will always choose to believe the pastor.” It was very much a “circle the wagons” scenario with pastors protecting each other from the consequences of their bad behavior.

  21. Pastor Scott Menez up there claiming to be “telling the truth, being transparent with everything that we know”?

    Says, “John worked mainly with our seniors”

    Huh? John Griffin had been a teacher at the church’s ‘Christian Academy’!

    How are they ‘being transparent with everything’ and not mention that? At all!

    saved copy of page they quickly scrubbed from website:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20190121223550/https://www.riverbendacademy.org/christ-centered-biblical-perspectives/post/gods-providence

    March 10, 2016
    “God’s Providence” by Dr. John Griffin

    “I have the pleasure of teaching Old Testament Survey to the seventh and eighth grades at Riverbend Academy.” — John Griffin, Ed.D.

  22. Jack,

    I agree that we have a long way to go before church is outlawed in the USA. Also, the shoe is rather on the other foot. Since 1620, churches have sought to restrict freedoms in countless ways. The Puritans tried to keep Anglicans from having traditional (racy) celebrations. Maryland filled up with persecuted Catholics. Pennsylvania was a haven for Quakers, and Rhode Island for Baptists—all of them driven out of other colonies, to varying degrees.

    Who can forget the witch trials of 1692, Prohibition, and Sunday blue laws? We don’t even need to look at more controversial or current church activism, but it’s there too, every day of the year and twice on Sundays.

  23. Jeffrey Chalmers: W/to the first, guy does it not surprise we he likes cite old… “ it use to be so-much better in the old days”.. yup, especially in South when you were a rich, white slave owner…

    I am pretty old and some things were better in the old days. I have never been a rich, slave owner. but my great-great-great grandfather was.

  24. Jack: Friend: I agree that we have a long way to go before church is outlawed in the USA.

    It won’t happen

    Tell that to that Newsmax commercial that’s on heavy rotation on local AM radio.
    The one that starts out “THE BIBLE IS UNDER ATTACK!” followed by Persecution Pron buzzwords.
    After 15 months living in a pressure cooker, I’m ready to pitch the radio out the window without opening the window first.

  25. Jack: This idea that Christianity in the US & Canada is being persecuted is false.

    Relax Jack, I never said that it was.
    I was only positing a ‘what if?’.
    English Lit. is full of dystopian fiction, one of the best genre sellers at bookstores everywhere.

  26. Ken P.: I am pretty old and some things were better in the old days.

    Yes they were. I remember Perch fishing on Lake Michigan. When I was a kid you could eat your catch. Not anymore, the Mercury content is too high.

  27. Jack: It won’t happen

    No, the US is not going to criminalize religion, least of all Christianity.

    However, crimes do happen in churches and are sometimes in the church’s DNA. The Warren Jeffs gang claimed persecution instead of owning up to criminal behavior. Word of Faith Fellowship in Spindale, NC, is still operating despite very strong allegations of shocking abuse.

  28. Jerome,

    “John worked mainly with our seniors”–pastor scott menez

    Huh? John Griffin had been a teacher at the church’s ‘Christian Academy’!”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++

    the lying, dishonest, cowardly self-interest is utterly disappointing. The fact that I expected this kind of response makes it no less disappointing.

  29. Ken P.,

    I like to think that each “generation” has its “pluses” and “minuses” … Kind of what the book of Ecclesiastes talks about..

  30. Headless Unicorn Guy: Tell that to that Newsmax commercial that’s on heavy rotation on local AM radio.
    The one that starts out “THE BIBLE IS UNDER ATTACK!” followed by Persecution Pron buzzwords.
    After 15 months living in a pressure cooker, I’m ready to pitch the radio out the window without opening the window first.

    My intuition is that, in America at least, certain flavors of religion are earning for themselves a bad reputation, and perhaps may come (rightly IMO) in the not too distant future to be regarded by outsiders to be a public health menace. I suspect that the hysterical rhetoric is coming, in part, from a recognition that “we’re in trouble, and it’s mostly our own fault.” It’s easier to circle wagons and point the weapons outward than to self-reflect and change.

    ——

    some news that is actually useful:

    Try this in a pressure cooker — it’s quite good.

    https://www.31daily.com/worlds-best-pasta-sauce/

    The sauce comes out a bit watery in my experience (I chop the onion and leave it in) but you can exploit that by throwing dry pasta into the sauce and cooking again for a few minutes. The pasta absorbs the surplus moisture and comes out al dente .

    I’m told this works best with San Marzano tomatoes; I find it quite good even with generic cheap canned plum tomatoes. Those are dear in the local grocery; I hope to try this later this year with fresh produce from a small San Marzano plantation in back-yard. If I can just control the mold in my germination trays.

  31. Muff Potter: Relax Jack, I never said that it was.

    Point taken. But even in my wife’s non authoritarian church, there is (or was when I went) this passive aggressive narrative that somehow things were better in the ‘old days’, that the ‘christian’ way of life is under assault, specifically by science & the government.

    I imagine in authoritarian churches this narrative gets even more airplay. You can see how it can warp reality for those on the inside. This is fertile ground for abuse of all kinds.

    Our local mini mega has a jumbo Tron installed in the parking lot. The “dear leader” has his sermons playing all day long. Apparently you can drive up & listen on the radio. Very Kim il Sung.

    I love a good dystopian fiction novel. Sounds like some folks in these churches live in dystopia.

  32. Jack,

    One of my church’s former pastors got up in the pulpit one Sunday a decade ago and asked what was so great about the 50s (most of the attenders in that service were older Boomers). He went on with Jim Crow? Cold War? H bomb drills? McCarthyism?

    It was something that I think still needs to be said. Every “Golden Age” has its problems and we conveniently forget them.

  33. Samuel Conner: Try this in a pressure cooker

    Can’t wait to try this!

    Also can’t resist pointing out that the recipe says, “Never cook a tomato sauce in a covered pan.” You are breaking with orthodoxy, kind sir! 🙂

  34. SOME things WERE better in the 50’s. Hershey bars were bigger. They had not started using as much beet sugar or high fructose corn syrup in things like ice cream, ketchup, and candy bars and sodas, so there really was a better taste. But if you read labels and are persistent you can still get the good stuff. There was an expectation families would stay together and that sure beats the heck out of expecting the marriage to fail. But today at least if one party is abusive there is a chance to get out of Dodge.

    Some clothing is more comfortable today, but we have forgotten we can both be comfortable, easy care, and still look presentable. Just google “Walmart people” and you will see what I mean.

    The SBC was better, too. It was not fundy in my neck of the woods. It held up science instead of fighting it. Shoot, local SBC churches were mass polio vaccination sites in our area. Being oilfield, young earth was hooted as “backwards hillbillies” ideas. Women could take the offering, lead the singing, teach the mixed SS class. Women did not preach but in the absence of a man to do so women could “bring a brief devotional” of 20 minutes or so and give an invitation. The preaching job in our area was all volunteer, so women were not denied a career path. It was expected that you would actually repent of your sin and at least attempt to mend your ways if you truly got saved. And the focus was always on Jesus. We sang easy to sing songs everyone knew, with no paid musical staff, no paying for the music budget every year, worked great even with no pianist. Churches were smaller where everyone knew everyone else and pulled together. I remember once when a man was an alcoholic and an abuser and was not doing right by his family. Finally the Methodist Men and Baptist Brotherhood took him way out in the desert and explained some facts of life to him, including what would happen to him if he persisted. He cleaned up his act and was an accepted and valued member of the community.

    But do NOT try to take away my cell phone, my dryer, my dishwasher, or put me back in dresses and those awful starched nylon net can-can petticoats. Or little velvet bows on clips in my hair. DO bring back expecting folks to can the cussin, speak respectfully to each other, and mind their manners. DON’T expect black folks to sit in the back of the bus, step off the sidewalk, or use a different drinking fountain. DO bring back the sense of pride for all folks that led to trying to “better themselves” and “do for themselves.” Redesign the safety nets to help folks achieve that, rather than paying them to stay poor and then denigrating them for being in poverty.

    In short, SOME things WERE better in the 50’s and SOME things WERE horrible. Instead of just blowing the whole decade away, maybe we take the good and trash the rest. Would not hurt to do that today.

    Maybe we could trash all the hype, all the making church just another media venue with big screens and a kicking concert and just let the people in an area sing, pray, teach, preach, and live a life loving God and each other.

  35. Friend: Never cook a tomato sauce in a covered pan.”

    Ah! that helps to explain the wateriness.

    I’m compromising — my pressure cooker auto-temp regulates and does not burn; can be safely neglected while it cooks. An open pot simmering will condense the sauce, but may need to be stirred. I suspect that the elevated heat messes with the flavor, too. I’ll have to try a “jot and tittle” performance of this recipe just to see what I’m missing with my attention-saving compromises. My current method also saves on cooking the pasta in a separate pot.

  36. Jack,

    “Our local mini mega has a jumbo Tron installed in the parking lot. The “dear leader” has his sermons playing all day long. Apparently you can drive up & listen on the radio.”
    +++++++++++

    good grief, what a silly use of resources, plus light and sight pollution.

    logic and common sense: sermons are mutating away.

  37. Samuel Conner,

    “I hope to try this later this year with fresh produce from a small San Marzano plantation in back-yard. If I can just control the mold in my germination trays.”
    +++++++++++++

    how exciting!

    i love recipe talk! and you grow your own vegetables, too! we’re musing about doing such things.

    i’ve experimented with seeds in growing ornamental things — it’s never worked out very well. i think to some degree i’ve overthought things.

  38. elastigirl,

    But, when you are the “anointed one”, ever sermon you preach needs to be heard!!
    Back in the dark ages, I remember how my fundamentalist church made us go out handing out tracks, sometimes door to door… any opposition we got was “persecution”, and our dear leaders were convinced this “the way to do it”, and lost of peer pressure if we did not do it….
    now we use media to doit, except when the media is negative, then it is evil..

  39. So a pastor who is condemning social media while using social media to get his message out? Anyone here see what I see? He doesn’t know what the truth is so essentially lets pray for the pastor and assume he’s innocent of over 200 plus images of child pornography!!! Who are these people? And this is why we are so done with organized church and have gone underground to find the church. If anyone wonders why there has been a mass exodus from church attendance it’s because of hacks like these who attempt to control people ( no different that the federal government) in order to have worker bee’s and collect money for their pockets! It’s really disgusting. I wonder really how much ever really go’s to the ministry of spreading the gospel and tending to those who are in need? I highly doubt very much. There is way to much abuse going on and no checks and balances with incoming money. It’s a multi billion dollar industry collecting non taxed unchecked funds that is given to the church and we wonder why God says money is the root of all evil. This is really sad because my heart is breaking for these little ones who are going through this and probably still being abused as I type my comment. We need to pray for the little ones the children the young girls not this degenerate evil wicked pastor! I’m sorry he’s evil and whatever God does or doesn’t do with him I could care less. I’m reserving my prayers and heart for those girls.

  40. Jeffrey Chalmers,

    “made us go out handing out tracks, sometimes door to door… any opposition we got was “persecution”, …

    now we use media to doit, except when the media is negative, then it is evil..”
    +++++++++++++++++

    i marvel at how christians take themselves and what happens to them so seriously. Analyzing it all. Agonizing over it all. it all must mean something — God is up to something! Satan is up to something!

    i’d most of the time “it all” = simply extremely mundane things that mean absolutely nothing.

    “persecution” is often just a natural and normal response to someone crossing someone else’s boundaries.

    –“this is kind of a violation — how is it you have the presumption to invade into something this private and personal?”

    –“i’m under a lot of pressure with many obligations today, with a headache — frankly, i don’t have time to pander to your need to proselytize me.”

    –“no, actually you’re not entitled to lecture me, and it’s amazing you think you are.”

    (spoken as a christian in theory and practice, but who doesn’t want to be associated with the word anymore because it’s about marketing and politics, and ironically such a bad brand)

  41. Hi Dee, I just spoke to a Pastor Brian at this church and told him that he should reach out to you and have a conversation at what they can do to advocate for these victims along with giving TWW a run down of what things they have put in place to protect the members and how transparent they have been with their members. I shared with him what TWW has done for us and why you advocated for Billy. Why you had to advocate for us because of what our former church did to both of us. Now this may or may not be a solution to start solving some of the problems but my point in calling was to express my anger and frustration over the level of trust given to elders but also at least give them a perspective from the victim’s point of view and family. I told him that had our church acknowledged and supported my son that no one would run from a church like that over a child abused but rather stand firm and stay because it would be a safe place for family’s to worship. However I shared with him how we were treated and what TWW did for us that it would be a blessing to his church if they opened communication with TWW and at the very least a conversation with you. He agreed and said he would give you a call and maybe get some suggestions from you on how they as a church can do better or do more. I don’t know if he will actually follow through but I told him that should he have a conversation with you it may help improve the situation they are experiencing. I told him that you are a lovely woman who truly advocates for victims with in the church of this nature and I don’t know where Billy and I would have been without the support of you, deb, and TWW readers. I shared with him how you were able to help get us through that difficult time and how the church on social media (TWW) provided so much support that contributed to our healing. I shared with him how well Billy is doing today and his recovery from the assault that he would not have done so well without the support received here. I want to see churches reach out to TWW and start changing what they do. I know it may seem like an impossible task but if they manage to even help one person in their church by allowing the authorities to do their job and provide support to the victims when abuse occurs then it’s worth the conversation. I believe there are so many wonderful christians in these churches that we need to start trying to reach in if possible and TWW has the platform. Anyways this is just my two cents worth. Dee you know I adore you so much for what you did for us I just don’t have words. TWW is a blessing and I am hoping that we can encourage churches like the ones above to start addressing the seriousness of abuse when it happens and the victims rather than hiding and covering up. I told Pastor Brian that true transparency and being willing to be open with members would benefit not hurt them. I know if we had gotten that at LBC we would have stayed. Looking back though the blessing was we got out of a church that doesn’t fit our theology. I woke up however it shouldn’t have been so painful to find that out. Ok well I hope he touch basis with you because if he doesn’t then he lied to me and there will never be improvement.

  42. Friend: Also can’t resist pointing out that the recipe says, “Never cook a tomato sauce in a covered pan.”

    I use a screen mesh cover when I make spaghetti sauce, very low heat to simmer, the screen mesh keeps the sauce bubbles from making a red splatter mess when they burst but lets the steam escape.

  43. shauna,

    You did a great thing shauna. Yes, bridges need to be built, and there needs to be more communication. Open communication, and honesty, could go along ways to turn around the sickness in the American Church.
    To be perfectly honest, I do NOT get my “jollies” reading/commenting on TWW. I have plenty other things to spend my time; but I am willing to support victims, and expose abuse, especially when it is covered up in the name of Christ..

  44. Jeffrey Chalmers,

    Thank you Jeffrey. I haven’t commented here in awhile and when I do it’s usually because i’m expressing something from a parent perspective who has gone through this horrific ordeal. I felt compelled to contact them and ask them directly why would a pastor immediately discredit social media while using it and then carrying on to discuss praying for a wicked man who most likely will not change anytime soon. I’m not saying don’t pray for him but lets be honest here he’s not repentant he just got caught! Second I wanted them to know after asking my questions that the reason why i’m so furious is because we went through it and that they as a church need to encourage any member to contact authorities first if any abuse occurred with children there. He stated that he’s over senior ministry and didn’t have contact with the children because of their protocols. I went on to tell him lets be real I attended a church and allowed my son to run around not having a care in the world and that elders do have ultimate access especially when they counsel families and roam freely within the church. There’s no guarantee that he never had contact but I would bank my paycheck he has had contact with many children over the years. He said he couldn’t argue my point. Anyways I wanted to convey what it does not just to the child but the devastation from the parent perspective and what it means if a church would just support the family and victims allow the legal process to work. He agreed. I believe these are opportunities to dialog and engage. Dee has such an amazing platform and I encouraged him to contact her to seek advice from what they might consider the most unlikely source. I believe God can use Dee to reach those in the church even plead with some elders who may be teetering on the fence not knowing if they should speak up. Brent Detwiler did maybe if he had support from day one it may have went differently who knows. Anyways my hope is that God will encourage his heart to soften even more and contact dee maybe open conversation at what they can do better or share with dee what they are doing now to support the victims and law enforcement. my two cents worth…..

  45. shauna,

    While it sounds “trite”, we do live in a village, and everyone needs to participate. If enough people say enough, we are call out this disgusting stuff, and associated cover ups, there will be less if it. But we need a community of people doing it…. otherwise evil people can silence the few that speak out!!

  46. elastigirl: i’ve experimented with seeds in growing ornamental things — it’s never worked out very well.

    There is a lot of “art” in growing, IMO. I worry that this is being lost as smaller and smaller fraction of the population is involved in food production.

    A suggestion for experimental learning — it can be helpful to familiarize with the diverse range of “awakening from dormancy” behaviors of different species. I’ve learned by germinating experimentally on artificial substrate — I can see what the seed is doing. A useful method is to make a miniature humidity dome out of a flat sealable food container, such as a portion-saver or a chinese take-out plastic serving container. Damp paper towel in the bottom keeps the interior humid, and coffee filter on top of that provides a less-permeable substrate on which the seeds can germinate. Spread some seeds on the filter, seal the container and set in a bright window (or on heat mat) for warmth. If the seeds do not require cold stratification, they will eventually germinate, and this gives a way of quantifying the time to important germination events, such as first emergence of the radicle, that would be invisible if the seed were planted in growing medium. You can really see that peppers germinate more slowly than tomatoes, for example. Cucumbers germinate in less than 36 hours.

    Many seeds can tolerate removal from these conditions and relocation into growing medium. Some cannot, either because the seedlings are simply too tiny and fragile, or because the seedling is simply not amenable to movement after germination (I lost masses of Echninacea starts this way, for example).

    Some seeds require a period of damp coldness before they will germinate, and there are multiple ways to do this.

    I encourage you to experiment. It’s rewarding, and as it is nearly as easy to start 50 as 10 of a plant, it is easy to create a surplus that can be shared. Hummingbird attractors are wonderful gifts — good for the birds and good for the mental health of the people whose gardens attract these delightful visitors.

  47. Zla’od,

    Is this for real?
    And if so, do we need to change the laws and provide law enforcement with the tools to stop this scourge on our Nation?

  48. linda:
    SOME things WERE better in the 50’s.Hershey bars were bigger. They had not started using as much beet sugar or high fructose corn syrup in things like ice cream, ketchup, and candy bars and sodas, so there really was a better taste.But if you read labels and are persistent you can still get the good stuff.There was an expectation families would stay together and that sure beats the heck out of expecting the marriage to fail.But today at least if one party is abusive there is a chance to get out of Dodge.

    Some clothing is more comfortable today, but we have forgotten we can both be comfortable, easy care, and still look presentable.Just google “Walmart people” and you will see what I mean.

    The SBC was better, too.It was not fundy in my neck of the woods.It held up science instead of fighting it.Shoot, local SBC churches were mass polio vaccination sites in our area.Being oilfield, young earth was hooted as “backwards hillbillies” ideas.Women could take the offering, lead the singing, teach the mixed SS class.Women did not preach but in the absence of a man to do so women could “bring a brief devotional” of 20 minutes or so and give an invitation.The preaching job in our area was all volunteer, so women were not denied a career path.It was expected that you would actually repent of your sin and at least attempt to mend your ways if you truly got saved.And the focus was always on Jesus. We sang easy to sing songs everyone knew, with no paid musical staff, no paying for the music budget every year, worked great even with no pianist.Churches were smaller where everyone knew everyone else and pulled together.I remember once when a man was an alcoholic and an abuser and was not doing right by his family.Finally the Methodist Men and Baptist Brotherhood took him way out in the desert and explained some facts of life to him, including what would happen to him if he persisted.He cleaned up his act and was an accepted and valued member of the community.

    But do NOT try to take away my cell phone, my dryer, my dishwasher, or put me back in dresses and those awful starched nylon net can-can petticoats.Or little velvet bows onclips in my hair.DO bring back expecting folks to can the cussin, speak respectfully to each other, and mind their manners.DON’T expect black folks to sit in the back of the bus, step off the sidewalk, or use a different drinking fountain. DO bring back the sense of pride for all folks that led to trying to “better themselves” and “do for themselves.”Redesign the safety nets to help folks achieve that, rather than paying them to stay poor and then denigrating them for being in poverty.

    In short, SOME things WERE better in the 50’s and SOME things WERE horrible.Instead of just blowing the whole decade away, maybe we take the good and trash the rest.Would not hurt to do that today.

    Maybe we could trash all the hype, all the making church just another media venue with big screens and a kicking concert and just let the people in an area sing, pray, teach, preach, and live a life loving God and each other.

    linda,

    linda,

    Linda, i, too, experienced my General Baptist church in the UK in many ways just as you did. We were foremost in fighting racial injustice, supporting the poor, especially in the ways you mention, and, most importantly, preaching the whole gospel of Jesus Christ. Women were active in the ways you mention and we always had women deacons, Bible study leaders and teachers. We held to the priesthood of each believer as opposed to the SBC position of the priesthood of believers currently embraced.
    Now that we are in the US we are experiencing real difficulty in finding a church. Certainly the Gospel Coalition et al and Calvinist churches are out. Mega churches seem authoritarian and like companies.
    Ah well, it was encouraging to read your analysis which mirrors ours.

  49. linda: But do NOT try to take away my cell phone, my dryer, my dishwasher, or put me back in dresses and those awful starched nylon net can-can petticoats. Or little velvet bows on clips in my hair.

    To me “little velvet bows on clips in the hair” are what a Pretty Pretty Little Girl would wear, i.e. a CHILD.

    But then to a lot (of Males) who deify the Nifty Fifties, women are “Just like Children, WITH BENEFITS(TM)”.
    In short, SOME things WERE better in the 50’s and SOME things WERE horrible.
    “The Best of Times, the Worst of Times… In short, a Time Like Any Other.” — Dickens

    The reaction to The Sixties (now holding up Bibles) have DEIFIED the NIfty Fifties – NOT the REAL 1950s, but a Mythic Fifties according to Ozzie, Harriet, and Donna Reed with the addition of God-talk and BIBLE.

    “But EVERYBOY WENT TO CHURCH!!!!!”

    Instead of just blowing the whole decade away, maybe we take the good and trash the rest. Would not hurt to do that today.

    I am just old enough to remember the tail end of the REAL 1950s.

    Unlike Pleasantville which was “Nineties Good, Fifties BAAAAAD!”, in the Sixties we gained some things and lost some things. Was it worth it? Should we have kept some of what we lost?

  50. Zla’od: Er, perhaps I should mention that my time zone puts me a day ahead of most of you.

    That’s like answering that you (generic you) don’t need to primer coat stainless steel before painting.
    You either posted your original comment in support of anti-(you know what-ation) or you did not.
    My answer was a snarky satire to poke fun at the sites you linked to.

  51. linda: In short, SOME things WERE better in the 50’s and SOME things WERE horrible. Instead of just blowing the whole decade away, maybe we take the good and trash the rest. Would not hurt to do that today

    The problem is when people look back on the past as some sort of golden age. There were no golden ages. Everything that happened today just took place under deeper cover.
    The 50’s had a polio scourge and also gave us a polio vaccine.

    One of the key tools in the authoritarian toolbox is fear. A great way to encourage fear is to promote the idea that things are getting worse.

    We have problems today. Just different ones. Some of them are directly related to unresolved issues from the past.

    Just got my Pfizer vaccine 1st dose this morning!

  52. Headless Unicorn Guy: Unlike Pleasantville which was “Nineties Good, Fifties BAAAAAD!”, in the Sixties we gained some things and lost some things. Was it worth it? Should we have kept some of what we

    I was born in the seventies so don’t know the sixties from experience. But even when I was in the air force during the early nineties, women were not advised to walk alone at night where I was stationed, and this was a big training base. The reason? Men were just finished basic training and we’ll boys will be boys. This was 1992!

    I firmly believe that we do live in a better world. Diversity is good and a lot of the authoritarian belief systems like 9 marks and it’s ilk is a losing demographic trying to keep people behind theological barbed wire.

    In the short term there will be challenges. But I think their wall is crumbling.

  53. linda: SOME things WERE better in the 50’s … The SBC was better, too.

    Agreed. I was young and now am old. My SBC membership spanned 70+ years (including the 1950s). More than just being nostalgic about that time, the SBC truly was a different species then, the old days/ways were definitely better. The denomination has evolved into a different genus that us oldtimers don’t recognize. It no longer resembles “Church” in many places.
    If it’s still out there, you will most likely find it tucked away in rural areas where clergy/laity are not divided, where pulpit and pew work together to fulfill the Great Commission, where female believers are not treated like lesser citizens in the Kingdom, where people love each other as they ought, and where Jesus is still the main thing. Unfortunately, those places have been largely swallowed up by the New Calvinist movement in my area … so I’m done with SBC, but not done with Jesus.

  54. Max,

    There’s more hope than that imho. Two SBC churches near me are diverse and generous, as well as respectful of the virus that threatens human health. We just drove past one of them yesterday. Its illuminated sign flashed life-affirming messages: “Wear a mask,” “Wash your hands,” etc.

    These are not small rural places. One is suburban and one is downtown. Neither is a mega. And no, I have no idea what they are doing about the SBC’s larger controversies, but at a minimum they are little beacons of autonomous stability.

  55. Friend: little beacons of autonomous stability

    Agreed. There are exceptions to my “you’ll find them in rural areas” … it depends on leadership at individual churches regardless of location, be it rural, suburbia, or mega-downtown. However, most (80+%) of SBC’s 47,000 churches have less than 200 members and most of those are in rural areas … generally, these are still non-Calvinist Great Commission churches which have their spiritual heads screwed on straight when it comes to Jesus.

  56. Jack: In the short term there will be challenges. But I think their wall is crumbling.

    I think it is too Jack, their religion is not sustainable.
    The folks that initially put themselves under these despots may be starry-eyed and compliant at first, but over time (when the novelty wears off) they’ll realize they’ve been had and move on.

  57. Muff Potter: I think it is too Jack, their religion is not sustainable.
    The folks that initially put themselves under these despots may be starry-eyed and compliant at first, but over time (when the novelty wears off) they’ll realize they’ve been had and move on.

    Post pandemic, some churches will struggle. However there is an opportunity for moderate Christians to reclaim their faith

  58. Jack: there is an opportunity for moderate Christians to reclaim their faith

    That is my hope, although of course everyone has choices. I would wish that the abused feel free to leave bad congregations.

    If people no longer see the point of getting up early and going somewhere to get yelled at and lied to, they should consider churches where the yelling and lying are omitted. Hey, some places have evening services and casual attire!

  59. linda: SOME things WERE better in the 50’s

    Yes. But mostly only through rose colored glasses.

    Our SBC church didn’t want people of darker shades in the building. Much less in regular attendance. Our pastor who didn’t see an issue was gone after a business meeting on the subject.

    Also those darker folk were denied housing, business ownership, government programs and such and thus had money taken away from them by society.

    Looking back (I was too dense at the time to fully realize it) there were no darker folk in any of the mid to upper tier classes when I graduated from high school in 72. About 5 of the 235 were such. Most had dropped out. The folks running the schools said they were not smart enough. In hindsight they were not allowed to be smart.

    All kinds of teachers who were also in my church telling those objecting to the playing of Dixie as a school fight song to shut up and respect our traditions.

    And in other ways.

    Drunk driving and killing people was just a “bad thing”. Look up the stats.

    I had a sister die because she was born with bad kidneys. No transplants or dialysis then.

    Cancer was slice it out and see how long you lived.

    Need an ambulance? Call the funeral home and see if they could show up in an hour or less.

    Factories up river dumping all kinds of crap in the river you get your drinking water from? What’s the problems?

    Cars that lasted 3 years or so before they started falling apart? What’s the problem.

    But lets go back and get that candy bar. It was only a nickel around 1960. Which means today it would cost $0.44. Sounds like a deal to me. But the workers now are living a middle class life. Not one we’d consider in poverty today.

    My step grandmother had a saying about the “good old days”. It is GREAT they are gone.

    Oh, yeah, those Catholics? They are worshiping the devil.

  60. NC Now–I think you missed my point entirely. SOME things WERE better, not through rose colored glasses, just better. AND I said MANY THINGS WERE WORSE. I think you missed that point.

    We do not need to demonize the entire 1950’s over what was bad. We lose what was good if we do that.

    Me, I work for changing what was and still is bad, not complain about it. And I revel in the memories of what was, and still could be, good.

    Like bigger Hershey bars and no high fructose corn syrup.

    I am sorry your experience was bad. Mine was not. I did not live in the deep South and much of what you complain about I did not experience. I lost a cousin to cancer that would be curable now. That was bad. But I have lost them also in today’s world to drugs, something that was not happening in our neck of the woods then.

    There was less focus on drunk driving, and that was bad. But where I lived the counties were still dry and there just wasn’t as much of it. That was good.

    And not one kid in my elementary school (admittedly small) did not have a clue who his or her father was, or where. Not all were good parents, but all were known parents.

    Some things were worse. And some things are worse now.

  61. NC Now,

    Sounds like you were a “Southern” Southern Baptist, NC. I was raised in the Midwest … the 1950s in our neck of the woods was as Linda described. I had African American friends. We played together, laughed together, worked together, ate together. Their high school graduation rate wasn’t any different than other races. I suppose there were idiots where I lived who hated them, but I didn’t know any. If there were any rose-colored glasses in our parts, folks didn’t use them much.

    My parents went through the depression years, experienced poverty and poor health care, and World War II difficulties. They also experienced post-War blessings in the 1950s and considered even those times a better more gentler America than they knew in later years. I suppose the “Good Ole Days” depends on one’s experience and perspective. Heck, the NeoCals probably consider today the Good Ole Days since they have come into the world for such a time as this!

  62. Max: Sounds like you were a “Southern” Southern Baptist, NC.

    Nope. Much more center of the country, especially north/south.

    And much of what is better now has to do with non skin color.

    But much of what was considered “good” in the 50s till the 60s went nuts were a setup to the 60s and later. Way too many “good people” faking it.

    As to the earlier comment about living in a dry county so not much drunk driving, are you kidding me? Being in a dry county in much of the mid west just meant it cost more and you couldn’t buy it in normal retail situations. If people want to drink alcohol they get it and drink it.

    Lots of hangovers in our Sunday morning pews from people who swore that alcohol never passed their lips.

  63. Max: They also experienced post-War blessings in the 1950s and considered even those times a better more gentler America than they knew in later years.

    Back in the 1950s, people still remembered the GI Bill that gave a college education to many veterans. They knew where their VA mortgages came from. They remembered the days before Social Security. Granted, a lot of people might not have known or cared that it was far harder for members of minority groups to avail themselves of some benefits due to redlining and segregation. It took justice movements to start to even things out.

    1950s blessings also included the polio vaccine and other medical breakthroughs that helped children survive childhood. The space program was pretty wonderful too.

  64. NC Now: Lots of hangovers in our Sunday morning pews from people who swore that alcohol never passed their lips.

    And deacons who would smoke on the church parking lot.

  65. linda:
    Forgot to add:my family is not lily white, either.

    Depends on how you define “white”.
    100 years ago, my mother’s side would NOT have been considered white, but were starting around 70 years ago.

    My father comes from Pennsylvanis Dutch stock (which traces back to Hessian and Palatinate German “gone English”. My mother’s family came from somewhere in Northern Italy shortly before Italians became “white”. I think this makes me a one-man Axis Power.

  66. Thanks Dee, Billy and I are sending you big hugs over here in Texas!!!

    dee:
    shauna,

    I am more than happy to help. I am so proud of both you and Billy.