Books, Back Scratchers and Biblical Discernment

“In the country of the blind the one eyed man is king.”
-Desiderius Erasmus

Man has lost the basic skill of the ape, the ability to scratch its back. Which gave it extraordinary independence, and the liberty to associate for reasons other than the need for mutual back-scratching. – Author: Jean Baudrillard

Today’s post is not a wordy one, it doesn’t need to be. Yesterday I listened to Mark Prater’s weekly video. For those of you unfamiliar with Mark, he is the number two man in the Sovereign Grace denomination. I often listen to Mark. I find him entertaining and informative, although probably not in the way he would hope.

This week Mark was promoting a recently released book by Michael Reeves. Michael is from the U.K. and has a delightful accent that we Americans are so captivated by. He is also an author of some renown in the gospelly-centered world of 9Marks/T4G/TGC.  If you don’t know what those acronyms stand for you likely have never heard of Michael Reeves. In a former life, when I was a member of a 9Marks church in Dubai, I had the pleasure of meeting Michael Reeves and Kevin DeYoung, the second man whose work Mark Prater was promoting this week. Both Reeves and DeYoung were featured speakers at separate mini-conferences frequently hosted by the United Christian Church of Dubai.

Mark Prater goes to great length in his video extolling the virtues of Reeves’ latest book and DeYoung’s latest article. I don’t doubt his sincerity, but these days I avoid reading most things produced by those in Prater’s circles – the gospelly centered crowd, if you will.  I just can’t stomach men who sound so spiritual in their books, yet see nothing wrong with openly supporting Sovereign Grace Churches. And I can’t help thinking that is exactly why Mark Prater is promoting their material. Loyalty has always been rewarded in their circles.

While I don’t possess the pedigree of Mark Prater or those who run in his crowd, allow me to recommend a book that you will never hear recommended by a leader in Sovereign Grace. I believe that anyone who reads this book will be deeply affected in their heart and spurred to action, whether that be sitting with the broken, praying for the broken, speaking for the broken, or whatever it is that the love of Christ compels you to do. Christa Brown is a hero of mine, and I trust she will be a hero of yours too after you read her book.

Below is a clip from a lengthy interview of Michael Reeves by Jeff Purswell. Purswell is a pastor at C.J. Mahaney’s Louisville Southern Baptist church and heads up the ten-month “Pastor’s College” which boasts an enrollment of ten men.

Kevin DeYoung is another favorite of the Sovereign Grace folks. He has stuck with them through thick and thin. He authored a statement of support for C.J. Mahaney signed by Rev Kev and a few of the leaders of the Gospel Coalition. Kevin also signed off on Mahaney’s fitness for ministry way back in 2011. Kevin was joined by Carl Trueman and Ray Ortlund in that action. All three men showed us what great discernment they possess. Below you will find further evidence of Kevin’s discernment, nay, not just discernment, but “theological discernment!”

Comments

Books, Back Scratchers and Biblical Discernment — 118 Comments

  1. Remember, “discernment” only applies to the order tribe…. I NEVER apply “discernment” to MY tribe

  2. Todd, thanks for this post. Indeed, Christa Brown is amazing, the real deal, and her writing a watershed moment among God’s people. Ever grateful for her continued testimony, her life, her story of triumph, her tweets of wisdom & honesty.

    Ms. Brown’s testimony is indeed light in a world of darkness among religious institutions. As Emma Thompson has shared, every woman, from the age of 15 forward, knows predators are out there. Unfortunately, even in the church, even in the pulpit & church leadership.

    Unfortunately church leadership seems to silence the truth (“The church of truth without Christ”: Flannery O’Connor) and back their bros, as your post again reminds us.

    O/T Question: Are you familiar with Converge as a church org? Has Converge been covered here on TWW or at Thou Art the Man?

  3. Ava, loved the *Wise Blood* reference!

    OK, when I saw that Kevin DeYoung is in NC, I just had to know where. So I looked it up. Christ Covenant Church in Matthews, right near Charlotte. So then I went to the website and looked up the leadership.

    The first thing that struck me was how lily-white and well-heeled they looked. I’m not into white guilt *at all* — I think obsession with race is stupid — but I’m used to a lot of ethnic and economic diversity at church, so that much affluent, tony, silk-and-linen-clad whiteness strikes me as kind of odd. OK, that’s petty. Sorry. I’m baaaaad.

    The second thing that struck me is that they have EIGHT pastors for a church with 750 families. And that’s not even counting all the directors of this and that.

    Is this typical?

    St Matthew’s in Charlotte is the largest Catholic parish in America, with nearly 36,000 parishioners. (It’s also pretty one-percenty, I must admit. Those suburban big-box parishes are not my cup of tea, but that’s a whole other discussion.)

    Anyway, be that as it may, St Matthew’s has THREE priests. Three, count ’em 3, to serve a parish of over 35,000.

    There *are* four deacons…but, if you know anything about Catholic deacons, they are busy career professionals who may fill in for Father for the occasional baptism, wedding, funeral, or homily. Not full-time staffers IOW. Basically just on call.

    OK, I know I’m being catty, but seriously…who needs EIGHT pastors? For a church with maybe 3,000 members max?

    Sorry for getting off-topic. I will now slink away and repent for judging by appearances.

  4. There’s much more to Michael Reeves than a delightful accent and he doesn’t need to hang out with certain evangelicals to push his books. He”s the principal of the Union School of Theology in Wales (formerly Barry Bible College/ Evangelical Theological College of Wales/ WEST) with a number of regional and international learning hubs; former director of Theology for UCCF and was an associate pastor at John Stott’s old church at All Soul’s Langham Place. It might be simply that they appreciate his good theology.

    On the subject of “bad theology”, this is an interesting article published on the TGC website recently.

    http://www.mikeleake.net/2021/03/an-autopsy-of-the-yrr-movement.html

    Max, you’ve predicted this for years!

  5. Lowlandseer,

    Thank you for the link. This cult of personality enabled CJ Mahaney to continue with his destructive path. No one should appear at his church or support him. It brings pain to victims.

  6. “Mark Prater goes to great length in his video extolling the virtues of Reeves’ latest book and DeYoung’s latest article.”

    There is no shortage of flattery and brown-nosing in the New Calvinist movement. The syrupy dudebro backslaps have reached sickening levels. They promote each other … until one of their potatoes gets too hot to handle. Then it becomes “Driscoll who?” … “MacDonald who? … “Tullian who? … etc.

  7. Catholic Gate-Crasher,

    Top-heavy with pastor$ that in turn set up their money tables in the temple.

    For their book table$ they ask, “Is the Bible really all we need?” inferring that, for example, science expertise is unnecessary. And then they publish & sell their own books to say so. Hypocrisy. Maybe the Bible is the only theology book we need which would cancel out their needless publishing & money table$ in the temple.

    We’ll keep our books of scientific expertise and artful volumes of literature as well as DIY of gardening, cooking, & fixing things. Oh, and we’ll keep our testimonies of what really goes on with some of these predator pastors such as Christa Brown’s “This Little Light”.

    Enter a den of thieves and snake oil at one’s peril.

  8. Lowlandseer,

    Interesting link…. I agree, it was MAX has been saying… YRR preacher boys are clearly focused on themselves..
    It is really quite a expression of arrogance to think you have, not only the answers, but that their “words” are more important that the words of JC…

  9. Max: They promote each other … until one of their potatoes gets too hot to handle. Then it becomes “Driscoll who?” … “MacDonald who? … “Tullian who? … etc.

    From Eternal Hero of The Party to doubleplusunperson.

  10. Ava Aaronson: Enter a den of thieves and snake oil at one’s peril.

    Especially when that nest of vipers are perpetually Virtue-Signalling their own RIGHTeousness.
    You also see this in the Communists of the last century and the Uber-Woke of today.

  11. Catholic Gate-Crasher: OK, I know I’m being catty, but seriously…who needs EIGHT pastors? For a church with maybe 3,000 members max?

    No, you’re not being catty.
    Imagine if you will a post-apocalyptic world in which all the amenities we’ve come to enjoy in a civilized society have broken down.
    These guys would be more than happy to go on wars of ‘conquest’ and institute ‘Biblical’ dictatorships in their conquered territories.

  12. Lowlandseer: There’s much more to Michael Reeves than a delightful accent and he doesn’t need to hang out with certain evangelicals to push his books. He”s the principal of the Union School of Theology in Wales (formerly Barry Bible College/ Evangelical Theological College of Wales/ WEST) with a number of regional and international learning hubs; former director of Theology for UCCF and was an associate pastor at John Stott’s old church at All Soul’s Langham Place. It might be simply that they appreciate his good theology.

    Precisely. If you watched the 30 second video (third video of 4 in my post) you will note that Purswell lists Reeves’ qualifications. My point is not that Reeves is unqualified to teach, rather, it is what is a man who is so highly qualified in Christian doctrine doing teaching at the Pastor’s College of Sovereign Grace? Reeves, while highly educated, appears to be lacking in discernment and common sense. Or, perhaps he simply appreciates receiving a yearly all-expenses-paid trip to Louisville. Or, worse yet, maybe he, like his fellow countryman, Jonathan Fletcher, has no issue with men in the ministry who sexually abuse and/or coverup that abuse.

    Whatever the case, I submit that any man who teaches at the Pastor’s College is implicitly endorsing Sovereign Grace and demonstrates a total lack of concern for the victims.

    P.S. Maybe while Reeves is stateside he could make a side-trip to P.J. Smyth’s church in the D.C. area!

  13. Todd Wilhelm: My point is not that Reeves is unqualified to teach, rather, it is what is a man who is so highly qualified in Christian doctrine doing teaching at the Pastor’s College of Sovereign Grace? Reeves, while highly educated, appears to be lacking in discernment and common sense. Or, perhaps he simply appreciates receiving a yearly all-expenses-paid trip to Louisville. Or, worse yet, maybe he, like his fellow countryman, Jonathan Fletcher, has no issue with men in the ministry who sexually abuse and/or coverup that abuse.

    I think he is in it for the money and doesn’t give a hoot about SGM victims. I don’t care how well educated he is and I come from a family which values education. Many of these men are stupid when it comes to real life issues. Teaching at the crappy Pastor’s college? C’mon, man!

  14. Todd Wilhelm,

    And my point is that maybe they appreciate his teaching and he is willing to share it with them as he has done for several years. In the previous post someone quoted Spurgeon on discernment – “Discernment is not simply a matter of telling the difference between right and wrong; rather, it is the difference between right and almost right.” I prefer Corrie ten Boom’s view of discernment- “Discernment is God’s call to intercession, never to faultfinding.” Your scattergun approach to casting aspersions is quite remarkable but flawed nevertheless.

  15. dee: I think he is in it for the money and doesn’t give a hoot about SGM victims. I don’t care how well educated he is and I come from a family which values education.Many of these men are stupid when it comes to real life issues. Teaching at the crappy Pastor’s college?C’mon, man!

    Plus, it’s not as if Louisville is a desirable vacation destination. My husband is from Louisville, and I’ve been there countless times. Don’t get me wrong; it’s a lovely city, but Cabo or Tahiti it’s not.

  16. SGM appreciates anyone from who they can borrow legitimacy. Part of discernment is knowing when others are using your hard work and good name to wall paper over their shortcomings. SGM has operated this way since its inception.

  17. Lowlandseer: http://www.mikeleake.net/2021/03/an-autopsy-of-the-yrr-movement.html

    Max, you’ve predicted this for years!

    An easy prediction, given the bad-boy character of the new reformers! While I wouldn’t agree that the YRR movement in my area is dead yet, other Wartburgers early on had enough sense to know that it wouldn’t live long. It was too much about “us” and not about “Him” and “us” always runs out of steam after awhile when a movement promotes itself as representing Christ when it does not.

    On one hand, I’ll be thrilled when the New Calvinist funeral is finally preached … it’s never been about Jesus really. On the other hand, I will be saddened by the poor testimony the new reformers left during their tenure on earth – they have been arrogant, aggressive and militant … the fingerprints of God weren’t on the movement and its purveyors of Biblical error prevented folks from entering into His presence.

    From the article, Pastor Leake sums the YRR obituary perfectly:
    “All of the unhealthy cases of church discipline gone wild, spiritual abuse, cult of personality, etc. can be traced back to a failure on this very principle. And it, I believe, has lead to our fracture as a movement. The YRR is no more because it viewed itself not as a part of “the one, holy, catholic, Christian church” but as the school of piety. And in doing this it could not allow others to “be Christ’s”.”

    Where else are they going to go now, Al? Got any other great ideas to take the church off-track?

  18. Doubtful:
    SGM appreciates anyone from who they can borrow legitimacy. Part of discernment is knowing when others are using your hard work and good name to wall paper over their shortcomings. SGM has operated this way since its inception.

    That’s why Mahaney was hanging on to the coattails of Mohler, Piper, Dever, etc. He admitted as much, constantly fawning over them incessantly in public.

  19. dee: cult of personality enabled CJ Mahaney to continue with his destructive path

    Why in the world anyone would join Mahaney’s cult in the first place is beyond me! Did you ever hear him preach/teach? Good Lord!!

  20. Bridget: That’s why Mahaney was hanging on to the coattails of Mohler, Piper, Dever, etc. He admitted as much, constantly fawning over them incessantly in public.

    Mohler’s wife called T4G’s Fab Four (Mohler, Mahaney, Duncan, Dever) “Al’s Little Playgroup” … that still creeps me out.

  21. Jeffrey J Chalmers: It is really quite a expression of arrogance to think you have, not only the answers, but that their “words” are more important that the words of JC…

    The mutant strain of reformed theology proclaimed by Piper, Moler, et al. precipitated the “we alone hold truth” attitude by the New Calvinists. The new reformers talk more about their icons than they do Jesus! The following passage describes them perfectly:

    “Knowledge alone makes people self-righteously arrogant, but love that unselfishly seeks the best for others builds up and encourages others to grow in wisdom.” (1 Corinthians 8:1)

    As I’ve said before, no one would accuse the New Calvinists as being a loving bunch … arrogant is always the first descriptor which pops to mind.

  22. Max: Mohler’s wife called T4G’s Fab Four (Mohler, Mahaney, Duncan, Dever) “Al’s Little Playgroup” … that still creeps me out.

    Playgroups are dandy when the participants endlessly fawn over you 😉

    And, yes, that is creepy!

  23. Bridget: Playgroups are dandy when the participants endlessly fawn over you

    “I could say to you we’ve not been given Dr. Mohler’s gifts, and it would be useless for me to encourage anyone to imitate Dr. Mohler’s mental ability … I’ve seen his stack of books. If you have a stack of books, I’m saying there’s quite a difference, pretty obvious difference, between your stack and his stack of books. So if you are comforting yourself, ‘I have a stack,’ well you might have a stack, but if we consider the nature and content of your stack as opposed to his stack, well, your stack looks pretty sorry and pathetic.” (C.J. Mahaney)

  24. Meanwhile the 10 churches that left to start their own “association” have added to the deception.

    They chose the name “Trinity Fellowship Churches”. Which is (not coincidentally) way too similar to “Trinity Fellowship Association of Churches” (a charismatic group which took in Driscoll, and which is as far from Calvinist as you can get). Obviously they want people who are looking for a charismatic church to stumble into their heresy.

  25. dee: I think he is in it for the money and doesn’t give a hoot about SGM victims.

    I wonder what the yearly dollar figure is for the fundagelical bizz?
    It’s gotta be huge.

  26. Catholic Gate-Crasher: EIGHT pastors for a church with 750 families

    CatholicGateCrasher, St. Luke’s in Mint Hill, where I attend, has 1,500 registered households. We have one priest; there are two deacons, both in their late 70s. Three admin employees, a music director, a part-time tech guy, and the high school youth leader. I think she’s part-time, too.

    Almost everything is done by volunteers.

    My impression is that some Protestant churches are very top-heavy with “leaders” and “authority figures.”

  27. Mark R: “Trinity Fellowship Association of Churches” (a charismatic group which took in Driscoll, and which is as far from Calvinist as you can get)

    Driscoll is now a Charismatic Calvinist. He’s forming new relationships with ministries within the Assembly of God. He’s a frequent speaker at a mega-AoG church in Missouri. He has reinvented himself.

  28. Cynthia W.,

    I’d want to know about what the ordained folks do with their time. The number of families doesn’t tell you how active they are, or what they request or need from the church. It takes a whole lot of time to visit hospitals and nursing homes, if the clergy actually do that. Planning for weddings and funerals is also very time consuming, as is writing sermons. Our congregation is gradually resuming in-person worship; in the Before Times, we typically had nine or ten services a week.

  29. Muff Potter: I wonder what the yearly dollar figure is for the fundagelical bizz?
    It’s gotta be huge.

    They don’t call it “The Jesus Racket” for nothing.

  30. Bridget: That’s why Mahaney was hanging on to the coattails of Mohler, Piper, Dever, etc. He admitted as much, constantly fawning over them incessantly in public.

    I’d use stronger language than “fawning over”.
    “Sucking up to” as a bare minimum.

    But as Disraeli observed, “With a ruler, you can lay the flattery on with a trowel.”

  31. Friend:
    Cynthia W.,

    I’d want to know about what the ordained folks do with their time. The number of families doesn’t tell you how active they are, or what they request or need from the church. It takes a whole lot of time to visit hospitals and nursing homes, if the clergy actually do that. Planning for weddings and funerals is also very time consuming, as is writing sermons. Our congregation is gradually resuming in-person worship; in the Before Times, we typically had nine or ten services a week.

    Every Catholic priest I’ve ever known has spent a ton of time visiting the sick. Maybe I’ve just known the good ones. But that’s pretty much an integral part of a priest’s job description.

    I belong to a rural Catholic mission. Our mother church is an historically black inner-city parish half an hour away. Our pastor, who serves both church communities, is from Cameroon. Our membership is about half Hispanic, with a smattering of Asian and African families. Our priest is stretched very thin between both churches, yet he is *always* available for hospital visitations, confessions, parish meetings, quincinieras (sp??), and other People Stuff.

    Is that what you meant? Just wondering.

  32. Todd Wilhelm: link to an excellent article titled “SPIRITUAL DYNAMICS IN ABUSE SCANDALS.”

    Yes, good article. His previous article about how to spot a Toxic Leader is also excellent. Quote:

    “The irony is that it is unbelievably easy to spot our toxic leaders. They are often the ones who refuse to use their privilege and high-performance gifting to expose and address the roots of our recent abuse crises.”

    (He credits Simon Sinek for framing his insights. Yes, Simon Sinek is very insightful about relationships & social contracts.)

    Thanks for the link to Lee Furney’s site.

  33. Max: “I could say to you we’ve not been given Dr. Mohler’s gifts, and it would be useless for me to encourage anyone to imitate Dr. Mohler’s mental ability … I’ve seen his stack of books.If you have a stack of books, I’m saying there’s quite a difference, pretty obvious difference, between your stack and his stack of books. So if you are comforting yourself, ‘I have a stack,’ well you might have a stack, but if we consider the nature and content of your stack as opposed to his stack, well, your stack looks pretty sorry and pathetic.”(C.J. Mahaney)

    We have a stack of books. It’s a big stack. It’s the greatest stack. Nobody else has ever had a stack like this. Don’t let Fake News tell you there’s a bigger stack. Wrong. This is the biggest, greatest stack ever. We built this stack, and Mexico paid for it. That’s how great a stack it is.

  34. dee: in it for the money and doesn’t give a hoot about SGM victims.

    Mobsters?

    Has anyone compared these outfits, these orgs/networks/bro-hoods to the/a Mob? And their molls, wives? The Covenant/Tithe Money collection as “protection”?

    What they’re doing is legal (or sometimes maybe not) but is it moral, ethical, or even Christian adjacent, at all?

  35. Cynthia W.: My impression is that some Protestant churches are very top-heavy with “leaders” and “authority figures.”

    It’s in our American DNA, we can’t help ourselves.
    American business is that way too, top heavy, short sighted and rapacious.
    It’s no surprise that big fundagelicalism would adopt the American business model.

  36. This latest rendition nefarious 501c3 group of cultic Calvinist churches has had more name changes than Carter has pills, what’s up with that? What are they trying to hide?

    Time for a closer look? ,

    hmmm…

    Rachael Denhollander discusses Sovereign Grace Scandal on The Story with Martha Maccallum,
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeY_7O5BvD4

  37. Muff Potter: American business is that way too, top heavy, short sighted and rapacious.

    Chicken v egg, which came first? – re: USA business and USA church/theology models of greed, grift, goons. Hybels & his partners, they found each other. Life and art.

  38. Max,
    Really thought I’d heard it all but no, here’s this bizarre middle school tribute to Mahaneys idol Mohler comparing “his stacks” to “yours”. Tried hard to dismiss the locker room image it conjured up in my mind but couldn’t. Ended up with a side stitch from laughing. How could anyone hearing this keep a straight face?

  39. Friend: The number of families doesn’t tell you how active they are, or what they request or need from the church.

    Yes and no. Membership rolls are kept up to date, as a rule, because Diocesan Support and Clergy retirement fees are assessed based on membership. In normal times, if listed members don’t seem to be attending, they get a couple of letters and a phone call, an offer of a visit … and then they’re deleted from the list.

    My pastor (normally, sigh) visited all the sick of the parish each week. Those opportunities have increased in the last three months, although he still isn’t allowed in some of the hospitals unless a patient is dying. Other events have been slow, as well, but he still does Mass seven days a week, for a total of ten services per week.

    Sermons (homilies) are often not strongly emphasized in Catholic parishes. Older people I know have stories about the old days when a person might choose his parish (in a city Upnorth) based on which priest had the shortest sermon. My pastor tends to begin, “I was just reading this book, *holds up book he was literally just reading*, and …,” but I think the secretary gave him a talking-to after the “Moby-Dick” one. He’s been quite inspirational recently.

    The logistics on events such as weddings and funerals are handled by lay people, mainly volunteers, but the priest will meet multiple times with the families involved.

  40. Max,

    This would be very comical, except that child abuse has been covered up by these clowns, and 10,000 of thousands have been mislead by them.
    Shall I most for you all my stacks of Science and Engineering books? Should I expect you all to bow down to me if I do it?
    As I understand it, good old CJ did not graduate from college, so maybe would should cut him some slack since does not even know what being a scholar is?
    But even more to the point, the NT speaks of having faith like a child, and not in a negative way….. I guess the dude bros did not read that part of scripture

  41. “Post”, not “most”

    And, should I get in a peeing contest with Mohler? I think my Engineering books should count for more than his theology, or whatever books he has piled up…

  42. Fisher: Tried hard to dismiss the locker room image it conjured up in my mind but couldn’t.

    Mahaney intended for that to happen. I’m sure his statement about Mohler’s “stack” precipitated much dudebro laughter … laughing when they should have been weeping over the condition of the American church and clowns like Mahaney who have been given a stage.

  43. Muff Potter: I wonder what the yearly dollar figure is for the fundagelical bizz?
    It’s gotta be huge.

    I’ve heard estimates as high as $1 trillion. Individual mega-churches are reaping multi-millions in offerings alone! Then there are book sales, conferences, etc. etc. And Jesus didn’t have a place to lay his head! “Sacrificing” for Christ has never been more profitable. Doing church in His name has never been more off-track.

  44. Jeffrey Chalmers: contest with Mohler? I think my Engineering books should count for more than his theology, or whatever books he has piled up

    Mohler has been promoted as an “intellectual”, but I’ve never thought he was very smart. But he was smart enough to sucker in and mobilize thousands of young reformed rebels to Calvinize the SBC for him. He is the de facto SBC King, sitting on top a huge heap of stuff (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, thousands of once-traditional SBC churches which fell to the NeoCal movement). Yep, he may not be intellectual at all but he has been a brilliant strategist.

  45. Max: Yep, he may not be intellectual at all but he has been a brilliant strategist.

    As I’ve heard said about another public figure with fanatical Christian support:
    “Not Intelligence, just Animal Cunning.”

  46. Fisher: Really thought I’d heard it all but no, here’s this bizarre middle school tribute to Mahaneys idol Mohler comparing “his stacks” to “yours”.

    “MINE’S BIGGER THAN YOURS!”
    (sound of zipper unzipping)
    “SEE? SEE? SEE?”

  47. Ava Aaronson: Has anyone compared these outfits, these orgs/networks/bro-hoods to the/a Mob? And their molls, wives? The Covenant/Tithe Money collection as “protection”?

    And Jesus Christ as their Luca Brasi.

  48. Cynthia W.,

    Lol re *Moby Dick*!

    As you say, sermons aren’t really our strong point. At our little mission, though, we’ve been blessed in recent years. Both our current pastor and our former pastor are from Cameroon. I don’t know what they put in the water in Cameroon. But, in my experience at least, Cameroonian priests give *the* most awesome homilies — tight, cohesive, compelling — totally extempore. Even my poker-faced husband is blown away.

  49. We won’t get fooled again?

    hmmm…

    As you may recall, Albert Mohler admitted his mon•u•men•tal mistake and withdrew his long-standing support (enforcement) for C.J.Mahaney. No such retraction has been acquired from Mark Dever to date. Will a discard happen prior to C.J.Mahaneys possible retirement? The 501c3 wolf has big teeth, the SBC (employer) no cloths? Could b. Stay tuned…

    Inter Mission,

    Ann Wilson of Heart – Won’t Get Fooled Again,
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE2vQe4-UmM

  50. Ava Aaronson,

    “Chicken v egg, which came first? – re: USA business and USA church/theology models of greed, grift, goons. Hybels & his partners, they found each other. Life and art.”
    +++++++++++++

    my view is removing financial profit from the ‘ministry’ equation would solve a lot.

    all roles and tasks are volunteered. at the end of the day, zero balance.

    i think it’s evident that the church institution simply doesn’t have enough capacity to support the careers of all who choose this as their profession.

    what ends up happening is the equivalent of the pet rock, Father Sarducci’s Mr. Tea, putting a Barnes & Noble across the street from the mom&pop bookstore that’s been there for decades, enron, ponzi schemes, double-dipping, embezzlement…

    stupidity, predatory-ness, stealing, dishonesty, & more, all dressed up in “for God’s kingdom”

    i’ll just call it dumb stuff and self-interest.

  51. Catholic Gate-Crasher,

    The Spanish-speaking congregation, where I am music director, was totally flummoxed by “Moby-Dick”. We had a priest from Nigeria in our parish in Oklahoma twenty years ago, and he was very impressive. When he sang in Igbo after Communion, that was a shock to the staid, Midwestern congregation, but he quickly became very popular.

  52. Muff Potter,

    Biz and spin.

    “If Keith Raniere was brilliant about anything [reality of 2.6 GPA against claim of being the smartest man in the world], it was highly skilled with manipulation.”

    Sounds like another “brilliant” guy, but in the Evangeo-World, RZ.

  53. Jeffrey Chalmers: I guess the dude bros did not read that part of scripture

    Nah … they camp out in about a dozen passages which they twist to support their aberrant theology. If they read the whole of Scripture, they would learn they’re off-track.

  54. Cynthia W.: but I think the secretary gave him a talking-to after the “Moby-Dick” one. He’s been quite inspirational recently.

    I don’t quite get it Cynthia.
    How could Melville possibly be offensive?

  55. “501c3 Religious Barracuda” perhaps ?

    hmmm…

    If you happen to run into a proverbial 501c3 school of barracuda, I suggest you ex•tri•cate yourself from the deep immediately. Remember, they won’t quit until they are satisfied. Sovereign, is not of God, their Grace is not authentic as may be initially perceived…
    Soverighn Grace Churches? They have no bonafide lease on heaven. Beware of fishy parishioner (rental) agreements. This organization is inherently designed to fool you. The deception invariably goes in before the name goes on…

    Watch yourself.oK

    Inter Mission,

    Ann and Nancy Wilson of Heart – “Barracuda” (live)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P8HD0fbZso

  56. Muff Potter: How could Melville possibly be offensive?

    Not offensive, just mostly incomprehensible, especially to people who don’t speak English. There might have been a point regarding not being obsessed, but it wasn’t clear to me, and I read most of the books Father reads.

  57. Cynthia W.: The Spanish-speaking congregation, where I am music director, was totally flummoxed by “Moby-Dick”. We had a priest from Nigeria in our parish in Oklahoma twenty years ago, and he was very impressive. When he sang in Igbo after Communion, that was a shock to the staid, Midwestern congregation, but he quickly became very popular.

    Gosh, if those things were combined—a chant in Igbo and a homily about Moby Dick—I’d go to that church every Sunday just to see what happened next!

    I get it, though… people don’t go to church to be challenged in confusing ways. Father owes folks a clear sermon (although Melville doesn’t owe anybody a better masterpiece). Congregations can get stuck, though. For years, our old church put stuffed animals in the windows on Easter. This became a Tradition, and there was much howling in protest when some innovator replaced them with Easter lilies one Easter.

    Your priest sounds rather brilliant, getting people talking about obsession. Sounds like it might not have been entirely deliberate, though. 🙂

  58. Friend: I get it, though… people don’t go to church to be challenged in confusing ways.

    Yes, that’s the point. You want to challenge people in ways they can related to and try to achieve, such as being good to their families and neighbors.

  59. Muff Potter: Like I’ve quipped before, there’s no bizz like the Jeezus bizz.

    Biz & J-biz. Hollywood & Chollywood: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nadria-tucker-cw-superman-and-lois-hollywood-toxicity_n_603d5eb8c5b6ff75ac3ea433?uy5
    Good Ole Boys’ networks (with molls), at their core, one & the same.

    Regarding books, sociologist Mary Li Ma, PhD, @maryma9966 & @wipfandstock are producing: “Babel Church: The Subversion of Christianity in an Age of Mass Media, Globalization, and #MeToo”:

    – church & mass media
    – evangelicalism: consumerism, entrepreneurism, social engineering
    – ambition + scandal
    – corruption, prejudice, abuses
    – “why US evangelicalism w/its global projects have succumbed to the temptations of worldly power at the expense of vulnerable members in the body of Christ” [‘cuz sin/the flesh, Satan, & the world?]

  60. Friend: Well, for one thing, Queequeg had tattoos…

    Not just tattoos, MOKO.
    I’ve always suspected Queequeg was supposed to be Maori. A lot of illustrations depict him with Moko, Maori facial tattoos.

  61. Max: Driscoll is now a Charismatic Calvinist. He’s forming new relationships with ministries within the Assembly of God. He’s a frequent speaker at a mega-AoG church in Missouri. He has reinvented himself.

    Yeah, that’s been one of the surprises coming out of the YRR movement, and that is how it has influenced groups far beyond Baptist churches. Personally, I don’t think it’s so much because the AoG churches that have gone sorta-Calvinist like the neo-Calvinism so much as they like the authoritarianism that comes with the neo-Calvinism.

    Really, I think a lot of YRR and Neo-Calvinism can be boiled down to authoritarianism, which is very attractive to people looking for the ultimate control.

  62. Catholic Gate-Crasher: As you say, sermons aren’t really our strong point. At our little mission, though, we’ve been blessed in recent years. Both our current pastor and our former pastor are from Cameroon. I don’t know what they put in the water in Cameroon. But, in my experience at least, Cameroonian priests give *the* most awesome homilies — tight, cohesive, compelling — totally extempore. Even my poker-faced husband is blown away.

    Liturgical church pastors are generally taught serious homilectics at seminary. On top of that, because people expect a not longer than 12 to 15 minutes sermon, they should know how to get to and make a point within that time. It’s hard to listen to someone preach for 45 minutes or an hour, when it’s possible to cut out so much and still get the point in much less time. Sometimes I think that long-winded preaching is an exercise in ego and selfishness.

  63. Sigh. Sometimes I sure miss the little holiness church we attended during one posting in ND. At Christmas we had the congregation sing Silent Night. Well, duh. But we sang it in our heart languages. There was Laotian, English, Spanish, Norwegian, and German. Maybe more, but those that I know of. You would not believe how beautiful it was, not cacophony as you might expect. Same when we sang shall we gather at del rio. Oops, the river.

    I know it isn’t exactly Lutheran kosher, to mix my religious metaphors, but I still think a church full of folks totally committed to Christ and with hearts cleansed and filled with the Spirit is a foretaste of heaven.

    No church bosses. No rulers or elders, just brothers and sisters all.

  64. Ava Aaronson:
    elastigirl,

    Listening to a podcast about Rainiere and Nexium (spelling?)…

    When does church become a cult?

    When does disciple-ing become grooming?

    When does leadership become the Mob?

    It’s NXIVM (pronounced Nexium) and really, Raniere’s huge mistake was to have not followed in L. Ron Hubbard’s footsteps and turned his outfit into a religion. As such, it was a secular “executive success program” with no religious trappings. Once the police and prosecutors had enough data regarding the various sex slavery charges, they could move in without worrying about religious sensibilities.

    This does not mean it’s impossible to do. The state of California arrested Naason Joaquin Garcia, the “apostle” of the “La Luz del Mundo” church based in Mexico, in June 2019 on charges of sexual abuse against minors. A state appellate court ruled in April 2020 this handful of charges (six?) had to be dropped because the state had violated Garcia’s right to a speedy trial. The prosecutors were all, OK, that’s fine, we have a LOT more–and proceeded to file 36 felony charges. Joaquin Garcia is being held on bail of either $50 million or $90 million (the latter I read in the Mexican press just the other day). Obviously, due to COVID-19, his trial has been delayed and delayed.

    La Luz del Mundo has a lot of outlets here in the Southwest USA, as might be expected, and Joaquin Garcia worked here in Arizona and California before he followed his father as “apostle.” El Pais (newspaper located in Madrid, Spain) did a long story about this whole mess. I’m going to post a link to the English story, but the Spanish original made me want to throw up. So you have been warned:

    https://english.elpais.com/usa/2021-02-19/the-underground-lair-of-la-luz-del-mundos-apostle.html

  65. Headless Unicorn Guy: Not just tattoos, MOKO.
    I’ve always suspected Queequeg was supposed to be Maori. A lot of illustrations depict him with Moko, Maori facial tattoos.

    You’ll be accusing him of supporting gay marriage next.

  66. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Liturgical church pastors are generally taught serious homilectics at seminary. On top of that, because people expect a not longer than 12 to 15 minutes sermon, they should know how to get to and make a point within that time.

    There’s an interesting point behind this, which is that it’s the bread and wine that is at the heart of the liturgy, not the speech – and certainly not the speaker.

  67. Nick Bulbeck,

    Er – this was a joke, BTW. I was trying to lump together a load of things that trigger a reaction from evangelicals. I considered using something like “you’ll be accusing him of once reading a book by an author who said something that, taken out of context, could be interpreted as questioning penal substitutionary atonement”. But, obviously, even I wouldn’t be that offensive.

  68. Headless Unicorn Guy: I’ve always suspected Queequeg was supposed to be Maori. A lot of illustrations depict him with Moko, Maori facial tattoos.

    That’s a fair theory (and all the more shocking if the tattoos represent a non-Christian culture!!!!). At first, Ishmael has a lot of trouble absorbing the appearance of Queequeg’s head. Ishmael is a somewhat naive narrator, and Melville did like to spin a tale.

    It’s a good year to ponder the theme of obsession. 😉

  69. Nick Bulbeck: You’ll be accusing him of supporting gay marriage next.

    Queequeg’s orientation has been a Topic since the book was published, and he was Ishmael’s bunkmate. Of course you knew that and you’re just stirring the pot, eh?

  70. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    Thanks for the link. Very evil; praying for the victims.

    Having read TWW for awhile, what stands out about this religious group:

    – “amassed wealth at the expense of the church’s poorest members” (even selling books as necessary “truth”, like this post describes, is not ethical, not right, and not Jesus; Jesus didn’t sell anything, except maybe carpentry before he began his 3-year ministry. Ministry was never earning a living for Jesus & His disciples.)
    – recruiting young girls, in this case, minors (Evangeos love to recruit “interns” – and tho’ of age, they still “use” them; the number of youth pastors who violate youth group kids should be a huge issue – today Dee tweeted about people calling on her to stop the transparency about such a pastor)
    – “its theology revolves around the idea of restoring the true Christian faith and also around its leadership, which has an apostle to guide the congregation. The figure of the apostle is indisputable and his command is decreed by divine right”. The authority piece. Common in Evangeo groups, too.

    So: goons (control/authority), graft (violating others), & grift (using ministry to amass $$$) – the usual suspect/evil practices of false religion and fake church.

  71. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: It’s NXIVM (pronounced Nexium) and really, Raniere’s huge mistake was to have not followed in L. Ron Hubbard’s footsteps and turned his outfit into a religion. As such, it was a secular “executive success program” with no religious trappings. Once the police and prosecutors had enough data regarding the various sex slavery charges, they could move in without worrying about religious sensibilities.

    This does not mean it’s impossible to do. The state of California arrested Naason Joaquin Garcia, the “apostle” of the “La Luz del Mundo” church based in Mexico, in June 2019 on charges of sexual abuse against minors. A state appellate court ruled in April 2020 this handful of charges (six?) had to be dropped because the state had violated Garcia’s right to a speedy trial. The prosecutors were all, OK, that’s fine, we have a LOT more–and proceeded to file 36 felony charges. Joaquin Garcia is being held on bail of either $50 million or $90 million (the latter I read in the Mexican press just the other day). Obviously, due to COVID-19, his trial has been delayed and delayed.

    La Luz del Mundo has a lot of outlets here in the Southwest USA, as might be expected, and Joaquin Garcia worked here in Arizona and California before he followed his father as “apostle.” El Pais (newspaper located in Madrid, Spain) did a long story about this whole mess. I’m going to post a link to the English story, but the Spanish original made me want to throw up. So you have been warned:

    https://english.elpais.com/usa/2021-02-19/the-underground-lair-of-la-luz-del-mundos-apostle.html

    They are here in Winston-Salem. (I live just north of Winston-Salem, but all my doctors [except eye doc and vet] are in the area of Winston-Salem I call Doctorville, close to the hospitals, so I go to Winston a fair amount. Until retirement several years ago, I worked there too.)

    Anyway, I used to drive by the Luz del Mondo church building all the time. Wondered what it was. Just figured it was some iteration of Pentecostalism.

    When I heard about the abuse charges against the founder, I thought the local outlet might fold up or move on. Nope. Still there, apparently going strong.

  72. Bridget: WHAT!??? This makes no sense. It’s insane.

    Yes it is insane. Hopefully Minnesota will change the law so that it will cause sexual predators to think twice before they act.
    And not just Minnesota, but all the states who don’t have strong laws and are squeamish about going after predators.

  73. Researching my upcoming book (or just possibly idly surfing YouTube sciencey vids) this week, I came across a compellingly interesting quote fae a Norwegian laddie named Dani Beck. Beck is a neuroscientist by trade, and also part of the burgeoning ‘science communication’ community.

    Beck’s tweet went thus:
    SciCommers: Your desire for a platform or interest in several sciences should not supercede your responsibility and ethical duty to not speak on topics you are not qualified to. There exist others who know better and can do the job. Consider amplifying their voice instead.

    There’s a context to this, of course, which is the trend towards famous influencers becoming ever-more famous for being famous and, thus, becoming the only people who can actually make themselves heard. Thus, they can make videos or podcasts (or write books) on any topic and they’ll sell. It was, specifically, Beck’s suggestion of amplifying the voices of others that caught my attention.

    Among believers, at least one early Apostle had the quaint idea that there’s a Holy Spirit who gifts every believer. Now, of course, we understand that he was wrong, and that God can only build a church through the special giftedness of an anointed man because most christians can’t understand His Word. But I love this idea that a christian community can flourish without depending on a few (or just one) dominant influencers.

  74. Nick Bulbeck: there’s a Holy Spirit who gifts every believer … a christian community can flourish without depending on a few (or just one) dominant influencers

    The Church of the Living God is an assembly of Spirit-filled believers, each uniquely gifted to be a part of the whole. Whose job is the ministry? Every believer has a part! While God appoints/anoints leaders, they are no more important to the Kingdom of God than other believers who are called to fulfill the Great Commission together. This idea of a distinction between clergy and laity is a tradition and teaching of man, not the plan of God. But, if you can get the pew to believe there is a line in the sand, the pulpit can control and influence them.

  75. 501c3 religious Lunatic Fring, perhaps? Killing JOY…

    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Really, I think a lot of YRR and Neo-Calvinism can be boiled down to authoritarianism, which is very attractive to people looking for the ultimate control.

    .

    The makings of scripture abused organized weaponized Christianity, a form of twenty first century religious slavery. Beware.

    Not making this stuff up, folks.

    Insanity has come to a church near you?

    Could be.

    Watch yourself…

  76. Sòpwyth: scripture abused organized weaponized Christianity, a form of twenty first century religious slavery

    Amen! Unscriptural separation of clergy and laity, unscriptural distinction between male and female believers, unscriptural theology about God’s plan of salvation, unscriptural views of God/man/sin will enslave you to an ungodly authoritarian church structure … it’s a weapon that has been formed against you. Flee!

  77. Max,

    Amen…. just listening to our preacher message that says we are all ONE in Christ…. not a BIG DOG, with all the rest of the pew peons….
    I Corinthians… and Christ very words..

  78. Bridget: WHAT!??? This makes no sense. It’s insane.

    Any drunk woman is open season for rape now??

    Just ask the swarm of sexual predators attracted to Spring Break.

    “Candy is dandy
    But liquor is quicker.”
    — Ogden Nash, 1931

    Which DOES make we wonder about all the females going to Spring Break to PARTY! PARTY! PARTY!
    Where there is lots of easy prey (like Spring Break), the Predators will Swarm. And going into such danger to get drunk and/or high constantly (i.e. Constantly Impaired) for a solid week is just STUPID.

  79. Jeffrey Chalmers: we are all ONE in Christ

    Amen! “Gone is the distinction between Jew and Greek, slave and free man, male and female — you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28).

    Those who preach otherwise are just leavening the lump to get you to believe a lie, so they can manipulate and dominate you.

  80. Max,

    The video of Driscoll talking about throwing people under the bus that do follow his “vision”. Comes to mind….. and not just Driscoll…. I have personally heard the message you are “divisive” if you do not follow the “vision” cast be “dear leader”…

  81. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: It’s NXIVM (pronounced Nexium) and really, Raniere’s huge mistake was to have not followed in L. Ron Hubbard’s footsteps and turned his outfit into a religion. As such, it was a secular “executive success program” with no religious trappings.

    GO to YouTube and do a search on NXIVM sometime.

    I prefer Illuminaughti’s summary coverage:
    Original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAyqGCEIFGU
    Followup video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guO9pE7YLZI

  82. Nick Bulbeck: There’s a context to this, of course, which is the trend towards famous influencers becoming ever-more famous for being famous and, thus, becoming the only people who can actually make themselves heard.

    They’re called CELEBRITIES.
    The Rules of CELEBRITY are in effect, that’s all.

    “I ate the biggest pile of dog turds on Fear Factor — I’m a CELEBRITY!”
    — Country-western music video I saw many years ago, “Because I’m a CELEBRITY!”

    “I Wanna Be —
    I Wanna Be —
    I Wanna Be FAMOUS!!!!!”
    — Opening theme, “Total Drama Island” (animated reality show parody)

  83. Nick Bulbeck,
    And I remember a couple YouTube videos about Social Media Influencers throwing their CELEEBRITY weight around. The most blatant had to do with a Social Media Influencer (in Austrailia?) DEMANDING a free stay at a luxury resort or She’d Use Her Social Media Influence to bad-mouth them and kill their business. I think said resort sued said Influencer for that one.

  84. Nick Bulbeck: Your desire for a platform or interest in several sciences should not supercede your responsibility and ethical duty to not speak on topics you are not qualified to.

    Thanks for highlighting this person in the science community. This quote makes me think of somewhere else who this reminds me of. That person is Sabine Hossenfelder, a German scientist who is making enemies in the community for asking hard questions. Her YouTube video about “Does Infinity actually exist?” got me started on her. She has gone public with things like that the direction of physicists is going nowhere in learning anything new. They are stuck in a circle and she has called the “Many Worlds” interpretation as religion and not science which is true. But scientists talking about philosophy or religion are really out of their pond and tend not to do very well. There is probably a lesson here for all of us about not saying too much about what we know so little about…

  85. Nick Bulbeck: There’s an interesting point behind this, which is that it’s the bread and wine that is at the heart of the liturgy, not the speech – and certainly not the speaker.

    Yes, Nick, thanks for the reminder. While I was writing that yesterday, I was reminded that there are really no instructions about what a sermon or homily should contain. We have the example of the Sermon on the Mount, and there’s also that incident in Acts where Eutychus fell out of a window because Paul was preaching long. But there’s no description of “expository” preaching or other methods or styles of preaching, unless one completely cherry picks the Biblical texts. But we do have the example of Jesus at the Last Supper, and later, Paul in 1 Corinthians. (That said, I think some of the scary language used by Paul has been misused over centuries to keep people away from the Eucharist.) Again, thanks for the reminder.

  86. Jeffrey Chalmers,

    “message that says we are all ONE in Christ
    ++++++++++++++

    [footnote, put at the top: Tangential Trixie went on and on, here]

    so, i’m just zooming into this concept, here.

    it’s one of those things i’ve heard a zillion times. in my memory, without any real context given — as if the words themselves say it all.

    to me, it’s pretty abstract, and leaves many question marks hanging in the air.

    (and abstract + inerrant/inspired = an all-purpose tool to manipulate people with, in the hands of a person wearing the anointed leader hat).

    …and totally negated in practice.
    .
    .
    the way i see it, it simply means the basics of Jesus Christ are the commonality, the point of agreement.

    the significance of Jesus Christ diverges from there.

    different atonement theories. different takes on inerrancy/inspired, to the point that whatever cherry-picked words any biblical writer writes are a candidate for “Jesus commands…”.
    .
    .
    the incongruity of “we are all ONE in Christ” with the behavior of the “we all” is over the top. “quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious…” (Anne Rice’s words)

    to be honest, it’s repulsive to me to be ONE in Christ with a good deal of what i see in christian culture. aside from my natural-born resistance to ‘group’, my own personal ethics and conscience reject it wholesale.
    .
    .
    as i see it, “we are ONE in Christ” is only possible if:

    –it is pared down: God becomes human out of love: Jesus of Nazareth was born, grew up, was killed, rose to life by virtue of his Godness. (to put it plainly)

    –no, ‘you/we’ and ‘your/our exclusive ideological group’
    aren’t the only ones who will be there. in fact ‘you/we’ are in for a big surprise.
    .
    .
    (i’m sure i went far too long stating the obvious)

  87. elastigirl,

    “no, ‘you/we’ and ‘your/our exclusive ideological group’
    aren’t the only ones who will be there. in fact ‘you/we’ are in for a big surprise.”
    +++++++++

    ‘heavenly eternity’, that is

    (gah… all those words and i mess up the ending)

  88. Ava Aaronson:
    Todd, thanks for this post. Indeed, Christa Brown is amazing, the real deal, and her writing a watershed moment among God’s people. Ever grateful for her continued testimony, her life, her story of triumph, her tweets of wisdom & honesty.

    Ms. Brown’s testimony is indeed light in a world of darkness among religious institutions. As Emma Thompson has shared, every woman, from the age of 15 forward, knows predators are out there. Unfortunately, even in the church, even in the pulpit & church leadership.

    Unfortunately church leadership seems to silence the truth (“The church of truth without Christ”: Flannery O’Connor) and back their bros, as your post again reminds us.

    O/T Question: Are you familiar with Converge as a church org? Has Converge been covered here on TWW or at Thou Art the Man?

    Ava,
    I know a guy who is currently an executive leader in a ministry called Converge. It is ostensibly a ministry that comes alongside churches and morally failed pastors during times of crises to help churches become healthier and supposedly “restore” the pastors. The leader I am referring to was previously a pastor and also held a license as a professional counselor. I disclosed to him an incident of what I now clearly understand to be sibling sexual abuse and told him (at the time) that I felt confused as to whether it was really abuse and if it needed to be reported. He said it did not sound like abuse and it didn’t necessarily need to be reported. It wasn’t reported. Years later, the older sibling was convicted for sex crimes against other children. Multiple mental health experts that were consulted at present unanimously agree that the original disclosed incident constituted sibling sexual abuse,

  89. Sour Grapes Churches?

    hmmm…

    If you examine the incorporation documents of this 501c3 organization, you will discover that this organization of churches is listed as a non religious non member non profit establishment.

    This 501c3 church group SGC/Soverign Grace Churches, demands accountability but provides none. Is this a cult? You decide.
    I suggest you RUN.

  90. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: It’s hard to listen to someone preach for 45 minutes or an hour, when it’s possible to cut out so much and still get the point in much less time. Sometimes I think that long-winded preaching is an exercise in ego and selfishness.

    If the sermons were shorter, there wouldn’t be as much opportunity to quote Keller, Piper, Dever, etc and show off their quotey quoting skills.

  91. Sòpwyth: this organization of churches is listed as a non religious non member non profit establishment.

    Wow. Not what I think of as religious institutions. Amazing what you find if you look at documentation and follow the money.

  92. Wild Honey: If the sermons were shorter, there wouldn’t be as much opportunity to quote Keller, Piper, Dever, etc and show off their quotey quoting skills.

    Or imitate the Puritans with their four solid hours of Predestination Theology.

  93. AJ,

    Thx.

    Safe places? No.

    A few years ago, the local school district was considering some changes at the HS. Students’ responded with the fact that they only get 1 shot at HS so don’t mess this up.

    While these churches try to figure out what to do about CSA, the kids only get 1 shot at childhood. Churches need to figure out how not to screw this up.

  94. Jeffrey Chalmers: I have personally heard the message you are “divisive” if you do not follow the “vision” cast be “dear leader”

    Multiple thousands died early deaths in wars following the visions of leaders desiring world domination. Thousands have suffered spiritual demise following visions cast in cults of personality. It’s better to be divisive than dead.

  95. Everybody wants to rule da pews?

    hmmm…

    In organized 501cg Christian religion, chicks are designated second class citizens…and da pulpit boyz rule da pews…

    bump.

    The exits are clearly marked…

    USE THEM.

  96. Sòpwyth: The exits are clearly marked…

    USE THEM.

    The Pandemic Pause should have caused a great multitude of church folks to reflect on how far off track some of their churches are. It’s hard to see the Christian Industrial Complex for what it is when you are in it … glancing at it from a distance with Bible in hand and comparing it to what Church is supposed to look like can be a healthy time during an unhealthy period.

  97. Sòpwyth: Go fish …

    “Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men” (Jesus)

    The Christian Industrial Complex doesn’t do much fishing … or following for that matter.

  98. Don’t Get Fooled Again?

    hmmm…

    When religious 501c3 Bible con scammers trump the ratio of religious closed Bible suckers, Follow Me, takes on a whole new meaning, ya think?
    .
    Might wanna Watch Yourself.

  99. AJ: It is ostensibly a ministry that comes alongside churches and morally failed pastors during times of crises to help churches become healthier and supposedly “restore” the pastors.

    “Restore” or “The Fix Is In”?

  100. elastigirl: (i’m sure i went far too long stating the obvious)

    For many (in fundagelical slavery), the stuff you went into is not obvious.
    They wouldn’t dare and think such thoughts.
    It would be like entertaining the possibility that they never got ‘saved’ in the first place.

  101. Headless Unicorn Guy: “Restore” or “The Fix Is In”?

    P.S. The blog ChumpLady.com (about aftermath of a cheating spouse and accompanying mind games) coined the term “Reconciliation Industrial Complex” for that kind of “Restoration”.