Beth Moore Leaves the SBC. Whether a Woman Is Famous or Not, the Poor Treatment of ALL Women in the SBC Portends Poorly for the Denomination

“My family are very, very religious in Texas. They’re Southern Baptists. I left to go to New York when I was 17 and I realised I wasn’t Southern Baptist. That’s not how I am inclined.”  Lynn Collins


What I saw or was told at my former SBC church

1. I asked why women couldn’t help with the offering.

I was told that only deacons could receive the offering. If women were to help, people might think women could be deacons. This church had male elders and deacons. I then watched as young boys helped with the offering. So it is better to think that young boys could be deacons as opposed to women?

2. Why was my name not listed with those of the two men with whom I taught adult Sunday school?

I taught an adult Sunday School class with my husband and another man. My name was never listed in the church bulletins even though I taught as many classes as they did. A few women wanted to go and speak to the pastors but I told them not to do it since I was afraid they would not allow me to continue.

3. Why didn’t the church announce that young earth creationism was a mandatory belief of the church?

When a group of young earth creationists invaded my Sunday school class and behaved rudely when we discussed both an old earth and a young earth, I asked the lead pastor when we hadn’t been told that young earth was the mandatory belief of the church,. He told me that they didn’t announce it so that people wouldn’t bypass joining the church. I told him I would never have joined the church had I known. (I knew that my time at the church would be limited.)

4. The lead pastor told me his elders had only disagreed with him twice in 28 years and this was a good thing.

This told me the church was controlled by the lead pastor and led me to believe that he had poor oversight.

5. One of the pastors wrote a list of who or what to vote for in each election.

I told people that this was wrong and was informed that he has “always done this.”

6. The head elder spread a rumor that my marriage was in trouble as I advocated for transparency in a horrific sex abuse situation that affected 13+ young teens.

He apologized a couple of years later to my husband only. I was just the wife and my husband could convey the message to me. I assume he did not announce his mea culpa to all those he told in my former church.

7. I will not recount the shameful response I got when I, along with others, confronted the church about their actions in the horrific sexual abuse scandal in this church.

The story has been told too many times.

8. It was a seminary student at SEBTS (an SBC seminary) who molested all those boys in an SBC church.

Just one more SBC scandal.

So, I walked out of that SBC church and vowed I would never darken the doorway of another SBC church. I found a home in the Lutheran church.

What Beth Moore saw in the SBC

Beth Moore has left the SBC and will no longer publish with LifeWay, an arm of the SBC. Religion News Service posted Bible teacher Beth Moore, splitting with Lifeway, says, ‘I am no longer a Southern Baptist’.

“I am still a Baptist, but I can no longer identify with Southern Baptists,” Moore said in the phone interview. “I love so many Southern Baptist people, so many Southern Baptist churches, but I don’t identify with some of the things in our heritage that haven’t remained in the past.”

Moore told RNS that she recently ended her longtime publishing partnership with Nashville-based LifeWay Christian. While Lifeway will still distribute her books, it will no longer publish them or administer her live events.

…From 2001 to 2016, Moore’s Living Proof Ministries ran six-figure surpluses, building its assets from about a million dollars in 2001 to just under $15 million by April 2016, according to reports filed with the Internal Revenue Service.

Her publications were the best sellers for the already financially hurting LifeWay.

1. The SBC and women

Moore also became increasingly concerned about her denomination’s tolerance for leaders who treated women with disrespect.

In 2018, she wrote a “letter to my brothers” on her blog, outlining her concerns about the deference she was expected to show male leaders, going as far as wearing flats instead of heels when she was serving alongside a man who was shorter than she was.

2. The SBC and abuse

She also began to speak out about her own experience of abuse, especially after a February 2019 report from the Houston Chronicle

3. The SBC and politics.

She became concerned that many leaders in the SBC supported the status quo.

Moore had what she called “the shock of my life,” when reading the transcripts of the “Access Hollywood” tapes, where Trump boasted of his sexual exploits with women.

4. She was treated poorly by a senior evangelical leader when it came to her preaching one Sunday in a church.

Controversial California megachurch pastor John MacArthur summed up his thoughts in two words, telling Moore, “Go home.”

5. She is looking for a new church-even a Lutheran church- a good choice IMO 🙂

Moore and her husband have begun visiting a new church, one not tied as closely to the SBC but still “gospel-driven.” She looked at joining another denomination, perhaps becoming a Lutheran or a Presbyterian.

There are lots of similarities between our experiences except, of course, she is a star in the evangelical world while I’m just an average woman who passed in and out of the SBC’s doors. But I guess it doesn’t matter. Our experiences were way too similar which may indicate that the average woman in the SBC is in for quite a discouraging ride.

The heat is on in the SBC. African American pastors are resigning from the denomination. DR Dwight McKissic, who has stood firmly with women who have protested the stories of sexual abuse in the SBC, says he may be one.

Women, as well as African American pastors and their congregations, are leaving the SBC. There continue to be more reports of sex abuse in the SBC, even after the ineffective Carin Well conferenceI have reason to believe that there will be more reports on the mishandling of sex abuse in the near future.

Looks like the dark days in the SBC may grow even darker.

Comments

Beth Moore Leaves the SBC. Whether a Woman Is Famous or Not, the Poor Treatment of ALL Women in the SBC Portends Poorly for the Denomination — 304 Comments

  1. I can understand, what you are saying in your post. But, it seems so foreign to the Southern Baptist churches, I have known all my 37 year old life. I’d never heard of elders until the last few years, just deacons. I’ve always seen females teaching Sunday school, even mixed-gender adults and their names were listed alongside the men, some even taught solo. Even, when I joined a rather large Southern Baptist church (I think it is a mega church by definition) we had a woman, who wasn’t a preacher but she was on the ministry team and would lead us in prayer from the pulpit.

    Personally, I have liked Beth Moore, but I have been developing issues with some of her positions lately. Which isn’t unusual I rarely agree with most preachers or teachers, especially the more famous they become. But, I have much more of a problem with these pharisaic “leaders” who seem to be trying to push women to the back, when it is the women who largely built these churches just as they did the New Testament church.

    I agree the SBC must do A LOT more on sexual abuse. Though I will NEVER support Critical Race Theory in the Church, nor anywhere.

    I just want a moderately conservative church. Where you can be Arminian, believe in the scriptures and miracles, worship God, and nothing else is required. I want Baptists to rediscover the historic Baptist position that every man(&woman) is their own priest and theologian. Where you don’t have to believe in strict gender roles or follow the Law, to be a member. In other words be Baptist again.

  2. 1. The day the SBC discontinues being an entity would be a day that benefits Christianity as a whole except for the fact that so many of the manipulators will move to more hidden venues.

  3. #3 from the first list is classic cult behavior. Cults and other controlling groups never let people have all the information before making a decision.

  4. “Why didn’t the church announce that young earth creationism was a mandatory belief of the church?”

    This is now default evangelical theology. Remember when confessing Christvas Lord and Savior was point one – in fact, the only point. Now it’s the heretical notion of “inerrancy,” and at my evangelical alma mater, this is now first; confession of Christ is *fourth.*

  5. Thanks to the pandemic and the Tom Randall scandal at my now former church, I took a year off from church in all forms. I won’t be going back, and I’ve never been happier or healthier, which is a lot to say, considering the year we’ve just had.

    I cannot and will not go back because I now see that the toxicity is EVERYWHERE in organized Christianity.

    Everywhere.

    Some churches may appear more progressive or woke, but too many toxic tendencies remain. Abuse comes in many very subtle forms that easily go undetected when you are surrounded by them on a regular basis.

    This is why for me it’s no wonder that we see endless scandals coming to light.

    They will never end. Remove the abusive pastors. Gut the elders boards. Disband the SBC. It does not matter. More weeds will appear to take their place.

    Christian churches are fertile soil for abusers to flourish.

    I urge you any of you who have never done so to take a sabbatical from all churches in any form for a few months and reevaluate their culture with a fresh perspective and a critical eye.

  6. From Wade Burleson’s lesson Wednesday evening against church tyranny and for mutual submission and equality;
    Emmanuel Enid (Oklahoma),Wednesday Night Study – Fraudulent Authority – Lesson 9:
    “When someone asks you, “Who governs your church?” the typical evangelical response is “Jesus Christ.” The scripture teaches every member of the church has equal moral and spiritual authority. The church is a democracy of equals, not an oligarchy of superiors. Congregationalism alone represents this equality.”
    Full hour lesson and Q and A: https://www.facebook.com/emmanuelenidok/videos/5096360523771375
    Advance about 5 minutes for the start of the teaching.

    MOD: Please note that your attempts after this comment to put up links in comments to notes in your or someone’s Gmail account just do work. Please don’t do that. GBTC

  7. The logical end of the beliefs of New Calvinists is that they will end up with no women to marry, they will start taking their daughters hostage to force marriages, or they will turn into something like what’s in the Handmaid’s Tale. Their belief that women aren’t really human like them, shouldn’t have human needs and wants, and aren’t deserving of dignity, choice, and consent is just going to drive all the women away.

    I used to watch one of those shows that had former fundamentalist Mormon cult members who rescued others from the cult. One of the shows was about a young man who had been kicked out because he (and young men like him) would take an extra wife away from the other, much older men in the group. So most men were kicked out of the group so the leaders could have more wives. The story the leaders told for this was that those men were evil and essentially, not saved. The young man was trying to find his mother, who had been sent into hiding by his father because he was afraid that other men would try to steal her. He finally found her working at a poultry plant, but living in poverty because her husband made her send most of her money back to him. She was horrified to learn that her son had been kicked out, and kept asking what evil things he had done to be kicked out by the leaders. Really, his only “sin” was being male and younger than the leaders. He talked about how much of the cult’s beliefs were just outright lies and revolved around the leaders’ greed and lust.

    I am actually surprised Moore lasted this long, but I imagine extracting herself from Lifeway took some time (especially knowing how litigous they like to be). I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot more women stop “submitting” to their husbands and exit their churches or marriages because of the abusive theology of the SBC.

  8. d4v1d,

    “White evangelicals are the least likely faith group in the United States to get vaccinated for COVID-19, according to a new study from the Pew Research Center.“. From the Christian Post

    Humm, Vaccines are not a medical procedure, they are a public health procedure. The primary reason a population should be vaccinated is to protect “the population” from the communicable disease.. i.e. you do it to “ love your neighbor”….
    But, when a “unwritten rule” of theology is to not trust science, you get “I do not trust” the vaccine…
    but the, you should not listen to me since I am one of those back- sliden, compromised, secular humanist Christain….

  9. I wonder whether there is a correlation between “scale” of a SB church and the presence or degree of, for lack of a better word, patriarchal thinking on the part of the leaders. Smaller churches are more reliant on female volunteers and might, as a practical matter, be more courteous in the interest of not alienating an essential part of the volunteer workforce. Small churches would, I imagine, also be less attractive targets for takeover and reconfiguration away from congregational rule toward pastor/elder cabal style governance.

    I used to be dismayed by the problems of the churches, because I believed that the churches could be a force for good in the world. It seems, in US at least, that some of them are part of the problem (the public health problem, for example; one can think of others as well) and lately I interpret the problems of the churches to be a manifestation of Romans 1 style “under the sun” wrath. On that interpretation, things will not improve for them under there is significant repentance and change.

  10. Samuel Conner: Small churches would, I imagine, also be less attractive targets for takeover and reconfiguration away from congregational rule toward pastor/elder cabal style governance.

    You would think this is the case, but they don’t seem to follow that logic. I think they want to capture as many convention votes as possible, and maybe it’s just easier to quickly take over smaller churches, but they seem to go after small churches the same amount or more than larger churches. Small Baptist churches often put a lot of power into the hands of one pastor, so that might be appealing to a baby pastor. They also will plant a new church next door to a small/medium sized New Calvinist church and steal the members of the other church without mercy (currently happening where I live).

  11. Beth Moore certainly didn’t mind the SBC while it was making her rich.

    Viya con dios.

  12. Raswhiting: From Wade Burleson: “The scripture teaches every member of the church has equal moral and spiritual authority. The church is a democracy of equals, not an oligarchy of superiors. Congregationalism alone represents this equality.”

    All with gifts equally appointed (gender not mentioned) by the Holy Spirit for all in the church. The Body of Christ is amazing, if we recognize what the Holy Spirit (God) has given (gifted, no $$$ involved – not transactional) the faithful, the elect, the remnant. Beyond God Himself, what we need to function as a spiritual & social organization, honoring God, following Jesus, walking indwelt by God’s Holy Spirit.
    Romans 12
    1. Prophecy
    2. Service, helps
    3. Teaching
    4. Exhortation
    5. Giving ($$$)
    6. Leadership, Admin
    7. Mercy
    1 Corinthians 12
    8. Wisdom
    9. Knowledge
    10. Faith
    11. Healing
    12. Miracles
    Prophecy (listed a 2nd time)
    13. Discernment
    14. Languages
    15. Interpretation
    16. Apostles
    Teachers (listed a 2nd time)
    Service (listed a 2nd time)
    Admin., leadership (listed a 2nd time)
    Ephesians 4
    Apostles (listed a 2nd time)
    Prophets (listed 3rd time)
    17. Evangelists
    18. Pastors
    Teachers (listed 3rd time)

  13. Ava Aaronson: Beyond God Himself

    Better worded: How God Himself through His Holy Spirit equips us to function as His Body together, helping each other & honoring Him, socially & spiritually functional. 18 gifts from the HS and via the Faithful and for the Faithful in community under the authority of God, not others.

  14. Jarrett,

    Jarrett: e. I’d never heard of elders until the last few years, just deacons. I’ve always seen females teaching Sunday school, even mixed-gender adults and their names were listed alongside the men, some even taught solo

    I’m glad to hear that. Wade Burleson’s church is run very differently as well. The problem is for most churches this is not the case. You are in a denomination which has played games when it comes to theology and polity for years.

    Jarrett: I will NEVER support Critical Race Theory in the Church, nor anywhere.

    The problem with the way you say this is the problem with the issue of race in the SBC. They botched it, big time. It could have been handled much differently just like your comment could have been handled. It is the emphasis that you place on *NEVER* which contributes to the sad issue that is confronting the SBC.

  15. Afterburne: except for the fact that so many of the manipulators will move to more hidden venues.

    They will always be with us. That is why an active denominational hierarchy is helpful.

  16. Clevin: , I took a year off from church in all forms. I won’t be going back, and I’ve never been happier or healthier, which is a lot to say, considering the year we’ve just had.
    I cannot and will not go back because I now see that the toxicity is EVERYWHERE in organized Christianity.

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts and actions. I get it. I am so sorry the Church failed you. It has failed so many. You are loved by your Creator.

  17. SenecaGriggs:
    You can never be a member of the SBC, you can only be a member of your local church.

    So, she will not darken the doorway of an SBC linked local church. YOur comment reveal to me the fact that the SBC is messed up. They are in danger of losing their silly *we are all autonomous* polity. Two lawsuits are challenging this. I wish them well. The SBC has played this game far too long.

  18. ishy,

    Thank you for a great comment. I became interested in the Mormons when I worked on the Navajo Reservation. The Mormons have a huge presence on the reservation and will bring children, with a parent’s permission to live in Utah with families.

    One time, when I was up in the corner of the reservationwhere their was a small part of Utah, I passed a compound with children(girls in long dresses) playing and men with guns patrolling. My Navajo interpreter told me that it was one of those groups where men have many wives. He told me, in typical Navajo joking fashion, “I can’t even deal with my one. How could I manage 10?” I believe that it was one of the places associated with Warren Jeffs.

    I am aware of the fact that many young men are thrown out of these groups so the older, creepy men can have all the young girls as wives. I have read a number of books written by exMormons although the Mormons in Salt Lake City deny any association with these groups.

  19. Jeffrey Chalmers: you should not listen to me since I am one of those back- sliden, compromised, secular humanist Christain….

    You are one of the most interesting, thoughtful commenters here! because I believe this and believe the science as to the age of the earth, I must be in trouble!! 🙂

  20. Samuel Conner: I wonder whether there is a correlation between “scale” of a SB church and the presence or degree of, for lack of a better word, patriarchal thinking on the part of the leaders. Smaller churches are more reliant on female volunteers and might, as a practical matter, be more courteous in the interest of not alienating an essential part of the volunteer workforce. Small churches would, I imagine, also be less attractive targets for takeover
    and reconfiguration away from congregational rule toward pastor/elder cabal style governance.

    Great comment. I agree with you. I have seen this in NC in the rural areas.

  21. Samuel Conner,

    I have also noticed the SEBTS is taking an interest in these smaller churches. I have heard of a few taking on professors who drive out on weekends. They are also introducing things like membership covenants.

  22. Charles Scott Shaver,

    Never forget that LifeWay made a bundle on her stuff. This is going to hurt them tremendously. She was allowed to not *toe the line* because of the income she generated. It works both ways.

  23. ishy: Small Baptist churches often put a lot of power into the hands of one pastor, so that might be appealing to a baby pastor. They also will plant a new church next door to a small/medium sized New Calvinist church and steal the members of the other church without mercy (currently happening where I live).

    This has been the experience at our little church, verbatim! The exception is that we were aware of what was going on and these sheep learned to bite back! They have tried to ‘reform’ us internally and externally, but we don’t want to be reformed–we want to be TRANSformed!

  24. d4v1d:
    “Why didn’t the church announce that young earth creationism was a mandatory belief of the church?”

    This is now default evangelical theology. Remember when confessing Christvas Lord and Savior was point one – in fact, the only point. Now it’s the heretical notion of “inerrancy,” and at my evangelical alma mater, this is now first; confession of Christ is *fourth.*

    The same reason a lot of SBC churches have removed the name ‘Baptist’ from their name….to not ‘scare’ people away. There are a lot of SBC churches out there hiding their affiliation in order to boost membership.

  25. Charles Scott Shaver: Beth Moore certainly didn’t mind the SBC while it was making her rich.

    You know, whenever a male pastor is making way too much money, keeping their family in board positions to reinforce their power, and living a lavish lifestyle, there’s always trolls on here and Twitter saying there’s nothing wrong with that.

    But a woman? Oh wait, that’s fair game in Christianland, because women shouldn’t have famous names or statuses in evangelicalism. How dare she? /s

  26. Charles Scott Shaver:
    Beth Moore certainly didn’t mind the SBC while it was making her rich.

    Viya con dios.

    I think you got it a little backwards, there. She was making THEM rich…until good old Thom Rainer flew Lifeway straight into the ground!

  27. Charles Scott Shaver: Beth Moore certainly didn’t mind the SBC while it was making her rich.

    Moore was making Lifeway rich! LifeWay used Beth Moore as a cash cow. They suckered Southern Baptist women across the country into paying for Moore’s books, CDs, DVDs, webinars, etc., from which they took a bit cut. Beth was one of only a few female teachers “blessed” by the New Calvinists to allow their women to listen to. Lifeway is going to regret losing her on the asset page; on the other hand, Beth will do fine without them.

  28. Anna: The same reason a lot of SBC churches have removed the name ‘Baptist’ from their name….to not ‘scare’ people away. There are a lot of SBC churches out there hiding their affiliation in order to boost membership.

    I dare say that none of the SBC New Calvinist church plants – around 1,000 per year – have Baptist in their church name. Most members don’t have a clue that their church is affiliated with SBC. You ‘might’ find reference to SBC in a remote corner of the church’s website, but the Calvinistas like to hide this fact. The reformed preacher-boys may be ashamed of being Southern Baptist, but they’re not ashamed to take thousands of dollars from the denomination in church planting funds.

  29. Root 66: They have tried to ‘reform’ us internally and externally, but we don’t want to be reformed–we want to be TRANSformed!

    Going to reformed school used to be a bad thing! Now, the New Calvinists promote it as ‘the’ thing. As you note, we need more “transformed” theology in SBC life, not reformed theology. Finding a real-deal Gospel preacher in SBC ranks is like looking for a needle in a haystack … you’re more likely to find them among the haystacks in rural America than in cities and suburbs where church planting is an easier row to hoe and an easier pocket to pick.

  30. Max: suckered Southern Baptist women across the country into paying for Moore’s books, CDs, DVDs, webinars, etc., from which they took a bit cut.

    Not just SBC women. She has/had a lot of fans in the mainline as well, and I’m sure in plenty of other places.

    Call it crossover appeal, good marketing, skill, blessing, transcendence, what have you… but she reached farther outside the SBC than any other luminary in recent memory. They liked broad appeal during the days of Billy Graham Crusades, eh?

  31. ishy: The logical end of the beliefs of New Calvinists is that they will end up with no women to marry, they will start taking their daughters hostage to force marriages, or they will turn into something like what’s in the Handmaid’s Tale. Their belief that women aren’t really human like them, shouldn’t have human needs and wants, and aren’t deserving of dignity, choice, and consent is just going to drive all the women away.

    I’ve always said they’d be much happier in a bizarre kind of Christian Pakistan.

  32. dee: LifeWay made a bundle on her stuff. This is going to hurt them tremendously.

    Where will the New Calvinists send their wimmenfolk to now? Moore was “blessed” by the new reformers, who allowed their women to listen to her – her grace message was compatible to their theology. I suppose Priscilla Shirer will now have to fill Beth’s shoes … look for LifeWay to start a big promotion of Shirer now.

  33. dee: I have also noticed the SEBTS is taking an interest in these smaller churches.

    80+% of SBC’s 47,000 churches have less than 200 members. The denomination will not be totally Calvinized until the New Calvinists gather these in.

  34. Jeffrey Chalmers,

    My question is how did just good sense and sound reason with regard to covid-19 get co-opted and hijacked by fundagelicalism?
    How did they turn it into a theo-political football?

  35. Max: Lifeway is going to regret losing her on the asset page; on the other hand, Beth will do fine without them.

    You’re right Max, they’re gonna’ rue the day, and all Lifeway had to do is not be so beholden to the SBC.

  36. dee: It is the emphasis that you place on *NEVER* which contributes to the sad issue that is confronting the SBC.

    I have no problem with talking about and confronting racism in the church or anywhere, but not through Critical Race Theory. Everything I have read about it and through research into it suggests to me it is the wrong way to go about about it. And, breeds more racist thinking rather than heals it.

  37. Muff Potter: My question is how did just good sense and sound reason with regard to covid-19 get co-opted and hijacked by fundagelicalism?
    How did they turn it into a theo-political football?

    I actually had Christian friends invested in that movement who sent me all kinds of stuff, and from what I can tell, most of the sources were secular. Just like the leader they all pledged themselves to had no interest in evangelicalism except in the votes it could bring him. The fact that so many evangelicals have gone off the deep end driven by secular sources is quite puzzling.

    I wonder if many of them really don’t care much about God at all, except in a perceived special status being an evangelical brings them. And what they are really after is the feeling that they are more special than others, not actually chasing God.

  38. Jeffrey Chalmers: “White evangelicals are the least likely faith group in the United States to get vaccinated for COVID-19, according to a new study from the Pew Research Center.“. From the Christian Post

    This has been a truly puzzling aspect to the COVID crisis. Following public health precautions during a once-in-a-lifetime pandemic is not a government overreach into religious freedom … it’s the right thing to do! Christian leaders, like MacArthur et al., have overreacted to this and made the whole lot of evangelicals look like simple-minded fly-over deplorables. When you’re stupid, you need someone to tell you what to do! Christians should be serving as examples of obedience in this regard, not a resistance army! This has been a spirit of rebellion, not the leading of the Holy Spirit.

  39. Muff Potter,

    That is the million dollar question….. we could pontificate for hours…. but the bottom line is downright scary to me… what’s next???

  40. Sigh. It’s not just SBC.

    All my “are you seriously this openly sexist?” experiences have been outside the SBC, in non-denominationals, a Conservative Baptist, and a Presbyterian church. They ranged from a pastor saying Lydia’s household was all female, to blaming Sarah alone for the Hagar/Ishmael situation, to being told I couldn’t teach a Sunday lesson even though I had more training than the pastor, to a pastor openly mocking his wife from the pulpit, to being reprimanded and then lied to for responding less-than-100%-positively to a feedback request when my husband’s similar but much-more-direct feedback was accepted.

    I would add, however, that the common denominator was new Calvinism. The Presbyterian service I attended was led by a Mark Driscoll fan. The Conservative Baptist church had been relatively more “soft” (tolerable) complementarian until a new senior pastor started quoting Piper, Chandler, and Dever in sermons. And the non-denoms were an A29 and an HBC.

    We’ve been taking a sabbath from church services for the last six months or so, and finding other ways to “worship” together as a family and meet with fellow believers. It has been a breath of fresh air. We fully intend to seek out a new church when things start opening up (have our eye on a handful to try out in the area), but I am not touching anything that smacks of new Calvinism with a 10-foot pole. Even complementarian churches are going to be hard to trust, but this is going to be a point of contention with Mr Honey and I, as he’s (in theory) complementarian.

  41. Root 66: This has been the experience at our little church, verbatim! The exception is that we were aware of what was going on and these sheep learned to bite back! They have tried to ‘reform’ us internally and externally, but we don’t want to be reformed–we want to be TRANSformed!

    The medium-sized SBC church here is fairly traditional in style, and the new church markets themselves as “contemporary” (ie. “trendy”), and that’s definitely working for them to take members away from the older church. Both are strongly New Calvinist, and the pastor of the older church has really offended a bunch of people in town because of his belief that everybody else is going to hell and deserving of poor treatment, so he’s burned a lot of bridges. I’ve heard hints that the new church has done some similar things now.

    The new church is a NAMB plant. There actually isn’t another New Calvinist church for about five miles and the new church plunked down right next door to the older church can’t be a mistake. But it a model that I think is strange.

  42. dee:
    ishy,

    Thank you for a great comment. I became interested in the Mormons when I worked on the Navajo Reservation. The Mormons have a huge presence on the reservation and will bring children, with a parent’s permission to live in Utah with families.

    The Indian Placement Program was ended by 1996. There were a lot of problems with the program, including child sexual abuse. The Wikipedia article has details.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Placement_Program

  43. ishy: everybody else is going to hell and deserving of poor treatment

    One time I was complaining to a pastor about another member’s actions (not criminal, but unkind). He said, “Imagine as a ground rule that we can’t ask anybody to leave. Now what should we do?”

    The question stopped me cold. An awful lot of churches and members go through life doing the (ahem) hard work of deciding who’s not allowed to join, and who needs to be thrown out.

    It’s actually much harder to include than to exclude; to find ways for more voices to be heard instead of setting silence as the default.

  44. ishy: The new church is a NAMB plant. There actually isn’t another New Calvinist church for about five miles and the new church plunked down right next door to the older church can’t be a mistake. But it a model that I think is strange.

    This happened in our town of roughly 40,000 that already had four established Southern Baptist churches. The new plant has plopped down barely a mile from us. And to make matters worse, they even approached us because they wanted to ‘partner’ with us, which is new-speak for ‘we want your building and really don’t care about you old people!’
    Don’t know how much longer we can stave them off!

  45. Root 66: And to make matters worse, they even approached us because they wanted to ‘partner’ with us, which is new-speak for ‘we want your building and really don’t care about you old people!’

    Ugh. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s exactly what the new church is doing. They do seem to take a marketing perspective of “We’re better and more fun than that other church!”

  46. Root 66: ‘we want your building and really don’t care about you old people!’

    Well, guess who has the church named in their wills? These folks don’t even know how to be cynical, er uh, be be good stewards and honor their fathers and mothers.

  47. ishy,

    It’s difficult for me to not become cynical, but what many of these new plants are doing is pretty underhanded and ugly. We got a family a couple of years ago when a ‘church plant’ assimilated their struggling church and basically kicked the members from the original church to the curb. As the old Baptist preacher Vance Havner once put it, “They’re playing marbles with diamonds.” They don’t seem to see the value of “seasoned saints!”

  48. Root 66: It’s difficult for me to not become cynical, but what many of these new plants are doing is pretty underhanded and ugly. We got a family a couple of years ago when a ‘church plant’ assimilated their struggling church and basically kicked the members from the original church to the curb.

    The New Calvinists are taking over the SBC through stealth and deception. They are arrogant, militant, and aggressive … there is nothing Christlike about their modus operandi. Kicking long established non-Calvinist members to the curb to harvest the church building for the reformed movement is looting and plundering the Body of Christ. There will be a payday someday.

  49. Max: The New Calvinists are taking over the SBC through stealth and deception. They are arrogant, militant, and aggressive … there is nothing Christlike about their modus operandi. Kicking long established non-Calvinist members to the curb to harvest the church building for the reformed movement is looting and plundering the Body of Christ. There will be a payday someday.

    Trust me…our little church has experienced every bit of this first-hand. Even still, most of our congregation probably still don’t realize that these kids are playing for keeps. I no doubt must sound like a stark-raving, paranoid conspiracy theorist, but I will continue to sound the trumpet about the dangers of NAMB and their church plants! They aren’t planting churches, they are planting reformed theology!

  50. I left the SBC 12 years ago at the age of 36. I have never looked back (except with dismay). I have found a home in the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, which is much more similar to the “old” Southern Baptists minus the racism. Women are pastors, deacons, and teachers. One of the other things I love is that all people and ideas are welcome. We have extremely conservative members and we have extremely liberal members and everything in between. We are okay with healthy disagreement, but don’t stop loving one another when we disagree.

  51. Root 66,

    Just like some people think I might go “over the top” with my raising alarms about anti-science thinking in evangelical/fundy world….BUT, when you at least partially understand the science, and realize how downright stupid these anti-science positions are (note, I am not calling the people stupid, just the position) I have to keep sounding the alarm bells……
    we are now experiencing unnecessary death and pain because of a lack of respect for COVID….

  52. Jen,

    “Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, …Women are pastors, deacons, and teachers. One of the other things I love is that all people and ideas are welcome. We have extremely conservative members and we have extremely liberal members and everything in between. We are okay with healthy disagreement, but don’t stop loving one another when we disagree.”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    well, this sounds almost like a shangri la…

    a test: would my bullsh|t bingo card, christian edition, end up blank for 6 Sundays in a row?

  53. Jen: I have found a home in the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, which is much more similar to the “old” Southern Baptists minus the racism. Women are pastors, deacons, and teachers.

    The Cooperative Baptist Fellowship sorta feels like Southern Baptist because it used to be! The CBF was formed after several churches left the SBC during the Conservative (aka Calvinist) Resurgence. The “conservatives” wouldn’t put up with “Women are pastors, deacons, and teachers” and whosoever-will-may-come preaching. SBC’s ‘ole boys still preferred a little touch of “racism”, oppression of women, and distortion of Scripture to support their aberrant belief and practice as the new reformation swept through SBC … thus, CBF was formed.

  54. Root 66: I no doubt must sound like a stark-raving, paranoid conspiracy theorist, but I will continue to sound the trumpet about the dangers of NAMB and their church plants! They aren’t planting churches, they are planting reformed theology!

    We wouldn’t keep spreading conspiracy theories if the New Calvinists would stop giving us so much evidence to support them!

  55. ishy: The logical end of the beliefs of New Calvinists is that they will end up with no women to marry, they will start taking their daughters hostage to force marriages, or they will turn into something like what’s in the Handmaid’s Tale. Their belief that women aren’t really human like them, shouldn’t have human needs and wants, and aren’t deserving of dignity, choice, and consent is just going to drive all the women away.

    I’m going to say that it’s hard to watch “The Handmaid’s Tale” because every time I see Commander Waterford, my Neo-Calvinist beard monitor goes off.

  56. Max: This has been a truly puzzling aspect to the COVID crisis. Following public health precautions during a once-in-a-lifetime pandemic is not a government overreach into religious freedom … it’s the right thing to do! Christian leaders, like MacArthur et al., have overreacted to this and made the whole lot of evangelicals look like simple-minded fly-over deplorables. When you’re stupid, you need someone to tell you what to do! Christians should be serving as examples of obedience in this regard, not a resistance army! This has been a spirit of rebellion, not the leading of the Holy Spirit.

    Not that this is going to make you feel any better, but I was reading an article by this guy Matthew Remski today. He has a podcast called “The Conspirituality Podcast” and it’s about how conspiracy theories have found a home within New Age/Yoga/crunchy mama communities. And he writes articles, like this one:

    https://matthewremski.medium.com/introducing-the-conspirituality-report-6ddcbba50b46

    He specifically drills into the North American yoga community and how so many of its influencers got sucked into various conspiracy theories. It’s worth a read, and you might get some insight into why so many Evangelicals are also on this bandwagon.

    The thing that disturbs me here is we know what causes COVID-19, we have a better idea of how to treat it, we know what steps need to be taken to contain it, and we have some vaccines to try and help and put out the fire. But from the first thing to the last, it’s like so many people have retreated to back before the 1800s, when the germ theory of disease was articulated. The people who lived in 1347-1350 who did all sorts of things to try and keep the bubonic plague away can be understood because they didn’t understand the disease’s method of transmission, at the very least. Today, people really have no excuse. *shakes head*

  57. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I’m going to say that it’s hard to watch “The Handmaid’s Tale” because every time I see Commander Waterford, my Neo-Calvinist beard monitor goes off.

    Oh, me too. I watched the first two seasons and it was just too much for me. Excellently done, but hits much too close to home for comfort. I read the book in high school, before I saw that movement take off.

  58. Lore Ferguson Wilbert recently posted on social media about her leaving the SBC (The Village) for the Anglican community because she was allegedly stalked, part of a smear campaign and received threats to her family for six years “due to her tie to the system”. I wonder how long she can continue to play victim and make false accusations without ever accepting accountability for what happened here: http://noedenelsewhere.com/from-recovery-to-abuse-part-i/

  59. ishy: One of the shows was about a young man who had been kicked out because he (and young men like him) would take an extra wife away from the other, much older men in the group. So most men were kicked out of the group so the leaders could have more wives. The story the leaders told for this was that those men were evil and essentially, not saved. The young man was trying to find his mother, who had been sent into hiding by his father because he was afraid that other men would try to steal her. He finally found her working at a poultry plant, but living in poverty because her husband made her send most of her money back to him. She was horrified to learn that her son had been kicked out, and kept asking what evil things he had done to be kicked out by the leaders. Really, his only “sin” was being male and younger than the leaders.

    ANIMAL HERD-HAREM BEHAVIOR.
    THE ALPHA MALE/HERD BULL CLAIMS ALL FEMALES IN THE HERD AS HIS OWN, AND DRIVES OUT OR KILLS EVERY OTHER MALE – EVEN HIS OWN MALE OFFSPRING WHEN THEY REACH SEXUAL MATURITY AND BECOME THREATS TO HIS OWNERSHIP OF ALL FEMALES IN THE HERD.

  60. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: The thing that disturbs me here is we know what causes COVID-19, we have a better idea of how to treat it, we know what steps need to be taken to contain it, and we have some vaccines to try and help and put out the fire. But from the first thing to the last, it’s like so many people have retreated to back before the 1800s, when the germ theory of disease was articulated.

    According to morning drive-time radio, the Governor of Texas has opened up all the state – no masking, no restrictions – and all the bars and stores and restaurants and businesses are packed. “NO I WON’T! AND YOU CAN’T MAKE ME! FREEDOM!!!!!”

    (Not spoken of are the Dallss Megachurches, AKA Jesus Christ Super-Spreaders. I wonder how much of the governor’s reason for this is “Because – BIBLE!” The fact that’s what first comes to mind really tells you about the state of American Christians today.)

    The city of Austin has retained its municipal mask mandate and is now being sued for Insubordination. The LOYAL Texas AG has Twittered about “Their Brains are addled from Oxygen Starvation from all the quadruple-masks they wear.”

    If neighboring states are smart, they’d be closing their borders to any and all Texans.

  61. Wild Honey: I would add, however, that the common denominator was new Calvinism. The Presbyterian service I attended was led by a Mark Driscoll fan.

    Did he wear a kewpie-doll fauxhawk and a Mickey Mouse T-shirt, threaten everyone, and have a potty mouth like Avisarla from The Expanse?

  62. Max: This has been a truly puzzling aspect to the COVID crisis. Following public health precautions during a once-in-a-lifetime pandemic is not a government overreach into religious freedom … i

    Max,
    Anti-Mask, Anti-Vaxx, and defying those public health precautions are now Litmus Tests of your Eternal Salvation. I even know what verse they’d quote – “‘Science’ Falsely So-Called or WORD OF GOD!”, “For Me and Mine, We Shall Serve The LOORD!” – amid hints of Antirhrist World System.

    The Dwarfs are for The Dwarfs, and Won’t Be Taken In.

  63. Jarrett: I have no problem with talking about and confronting racism in the church or anywhere, but not through Critical Race Theory. Everything I have read about it and through research into it suggests to me it is the wrong way to go about about it. And, breeds more racist thinking rather than heals it.

    I don’t think so. And I’m a white woman. I’d glow in the dark if it weren’t for the freckles. And I’m saying that we need to have a serious, serious discussion about the structural racism threaded through our society.

    Evangelicalism desperately needs to have this discussion because the actions and beliefs of so many Evangelical churches are steeped in the 400 years of white supremacy in the USA.

    Anthea Butler, an associate professor of religious and Africana studies, just had a book published by the University of North Carolina Press. It’s called White Evangelical Racism, and she writes it as someone who used to be in Evangelicalism. (Her MA is from Fuller Theological Seminary.) It’s a short and tough book.

    And it’s a book that most Evangelicals are going to avoid reading because Butler takes no prisoners. She makes it very clear that she thinks the biggest problem facing Evangelicalism is racism.

    And I think she doesn’t go far enough. In my mind, the problems with Evangelicalism can’t be summed up in one word. I think Evangelicalism is not just racist, but also sexist, mean towards anyone they consider to be horrible sinners, but at the same time willing to sweep child sexual abuse under the rug, and willing to make deals with devils to grasp all sorts of power. There’s no one word to describe the nexus of badness that is shot throuugh so much of Evangelicalism.

    Except “not of Jesus.” It’s not of Jesus.

    People ate going to have to talk about Critical Race Theory because it’s not going away. Evangelicalism needs this discussion in the worst possible way, because avoiding the issue is just pouring more fuel on the fire that is figuratively burning dowm the Evangelical brand.

  64. Headless Unicorn Guy: The city of Austin has retained its municipal mask mandate and is now being sued for Insubordination. The LOYAL Texas AG has Twittered about “Their Brains are addled from Oxygen Starvation from all the quadruple-masks they wear.”

    Texas AG Paxton has three felony charges pending against him since 2015 (not a typo) for securities fraud. In addition, seven *conservative* attorneys blew the whistle on Paxton late last year for taking bribes and using his office to benefit a contributor. Oh, and he was in Utah during the Big Freeze. Great guy, that Paxton.

  65. Headless Unicorn Guy:
    If neighboring states are smart, they’d be closing their borders to any and all Texans.

    Speaking of border closings for virus containment, this Telemundo special report didn’t get quite the headlines as the restriction relaxation, but is massively concerning as far as mixed signals and real dangers of spreading the virus:

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/after-border-patrol-release-asylum-seekers-test-positive-covid-brownsville-n1259282

    “After Border Patrol release, asylum-seekers test positive for Covid in Brownsville, Texas”
    ‘A number of migrants seeking asylum and released by Border Patrol have tested positive to Covid-19 tests in Brownsville, Texas. Some plan to continue their journey to other cities and states.‘

    What could go wrong?

  66. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Texas AG Paxton has three felony charges pending against him since 2015 (not a typo) for securities fraud. In addition, seven *conservative* attorneys blew the whistle on Paxton late last year for taking bribes and using his office to benefit a contributor. Oh, and he was in Utah during the Big Freeze. Great guy, that Paxton.

    Does he hold up a BIBLE in public?

  67. Friend: How does this happen, and in whom?

    CRT, (Critical Race Theory), classifies all people into groups, and pits groups against other groups based on victimhood mentality; there is no individual, the individual does not matter in this configuration.

    CRT is a non-stop grievance culture, where people are encouraged to forever think of themselves as victims at the hands of oppressors. It is quite divisive and inflammatory.

    From what I’ve seen and read, CRT is not a healthy way of addressing real or perceived racism.

    The discussion and contextualization in CRT of racism is not the same as what Martin Luther King, Jr. taught, ie, to judge each person by the content of his character and not by his skin color.

    CRT rejects that thinking and says that all white people are racist merely for having white skin and for being a part of “whiteness.”

    CRT advocates even teach that black people (who reject CRT and leftist views) are not “politically black,” and hence do not matter, or should not be taken seriously.

    Asians are re-defined by CRT-ists to be “white adjacent,” where-as previously, they were considered to be “POCs” (Persons of Color),

    but because Asians (as a group) do not fit CRT propaganda
    (ie, of non-whites, that is POC, not being able to be successful in a culture due to the supposed existence of “white privilege.” Asians, as a group, have been very successful in American culture, a fact which throws shade on CRT. So Asians then have to be re-defined and re-classified as non-POC by CRT-ists)

    CRT advocates believe one must be “anti racist,” which is not understood by them to be the same as being “non racist.”

    It’s a very cult like, religious mentality, but one that doesn’t offer grace, forgiveness, or second chances (as in Christianity); you have to continually, in CRT, (if you are a white person), forever be guilty of “racism” and forever confess to being racist until the day you pass away.

    CRT advocates and SJWs (Social Justice Warriors) demand that everyone judge everyone by what group he or she belongs to, and to judge people based upon skin color.

    The negative ramifications of CRT have been in the news constantly the last year, I don’t know how it’s possible to miss this.

    Many college students these days are demanding to be racially segregated. They want their “safe spaces,” meaning, they want to have dorms and other areas on campuses where white people are not allow to live in, visit, or use.

    CRT ends up resulting in other, additional insanity such as this:

    “Mom (who is a black lady) slams woke high school for failing her biracial son (who is half white, half person of color) ‘because he refused to confess his white dominance’”
    https://www.the-sun.com/news/2497271/mom-slams-woke-high-school-failing-biracial-son-whiteness/

    There are web sites out there which explain what CRT is, what its adherents believe, and which critique it. All you have to do is google for it. 🙂

  68. Jarrett: Everything I have read about it and through research into it suggests to me it is the wrong way to go about about it. And, breeds more racist thinking rather than heals it.

    In complete agreement with you on that.

  69. JDV: The conversation is growing more robust, going by an article from this week:

    ‘Asian Americans Emerging as a Strong Voice Against Critical Race Theory’

    And how will they (Asian Americans) escape the Paris mob and Madame Guillotine?
    (so to speak)

  70. I am sure not a fan of all of Beth Moore’s political views and how she’s pretty… generally… selective on her social media and interviews in feeling or expressing her outrage over political sexism, depending on which party is in consideration.

    That aside, yes, the Southern Baptist set of churches, thanks in part to that odious gender complementarianism they like to peddle, is rife with sexism.

    I’m just surprised she stayed as long as she did, and that it took her this long to leave.

    I too was raised in the SB set of churches and don’t really consider myself Southern Baptist anymore, for various reasons, their support for complementarianism being but one reason.

    I wondered at my blog a few years ago when (… sorry, how is her name spelled, Aymme? Amy? Aimee Byrd?… who wrote a book against hyper- complementarianism)
    – I’ve wondered how much longer until she finally realizes that complementarianism is sexist in any and all contexts and walk away from all of it, not just some of its more extreme aspects.

    (Beth Moore seems to be tilting that way.)

    I mean, I don’t think she (Byrd) uses complementarianism to describe her own views – but she believes it’s “biblical” for women to be barred from certain positions in churches based on their sex alone, which to me is the same thing as a ‘soft’ form of complementarianism.

    I’ve wondered how much longer ’til she (Byrd) sees right through that and how sexist that is and leaves whatever denomination she’s in that supports that stuff.

  71. Daisy: “Mom (who is a black lady) slams woke high school for failing her biracial son (who is half white, half person of color) ‘because he refused to confess his white dominance’”

    Sounds like the good old days in the Soviet Union under comrade Stalin…

  72. Muff Potter: Sounds like the good old days in the Soviet Union under comrade Stalin…

    I suppose so, yes, LOL.

    CRT (wokeness, and related views) has been responsible for a lot of nuttiness, suppression of free speech, job firings, and intolerance the past year and a half or so.

    Most recently, and amazingly, the school subject of Mathematics was deemed “racist.”

    And, some of the CRT crowd have seriously argued in the past few months that “2 + 2 = 5” is a correct answer; if one says, no, there is only one correct answer to that math problem (which would be “4”), one is told no, that type of thinking is a sign of “white privilege.”

    Entertainment and book publishing companies are now banning or offering up “disclaimers” in front of 20, 40, or 80 year old TV shows and movies (including the kid’s show “The Muppet Show”), because older content offends the sensibilities of (mostly) under- age- 40 CRT / SJWs today.

    It’s gotten way, way out of hand.

    The folks who publish Dr. Seuss books are so afraid of the “woke” (pro CRT) crowd, they pre-emptively self-banned six of Dr. Seuss’ books several days ago. Then e-bay refuses to allow anyone to re-sell copies of those six titles (much of Big Tech is also on the side of CRT).

    This is not “the free market at work,” or “holding people accountable for what they say,” it’s the suppression of free speech. Companies (and individuals) are afraid of the nasty, vindictive woke one percent on Twitter coming after them now.

    The CRT crowd think that the “OK” hand symbol is a secret “white supremacist” hand gesture. It has gotten people fired.

    SDG&E Worker Fired Over Alleged Racist Gesture Says He Was Cracking Knuckles
    https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/sdge-worker-fired-over-alleged-racist-gesture-says-he-was-cracking-knuckles/2347414/

    “A Ramona man says he was fired at his job at SDG&E after a stranger posted a picture of him on Twitter and accused him of making a white power sign with his hand”
    —–
    ^This is one of the consequences of CRT and everything it entails. Everything is considered racist now.

  73. well, there’s this:

    for disclosure, i’m a white/caucasian/european descent person.

    i attended a bible study where it turned out i was the only white/caucasian/european descent person. i was sort of ignored, not out of anything malicious — just because i was different.

    the ice breaker was something about answering the question “what’s your favorite comedy”. lots of exhuberant laughter ensued. my favorite comedy was the only one mentioned with white/caucasian/european descent actors. no response. simply because it wasn’t on their radar.

    we paired up in groups of 2 or 3 to pray. everyone angled their bodies towards others to form these groups, angling away from me. i was groupless, so i inserted myself into a group.

    again, nothing malicious at all. i was just different, and people gravitate towards what is familiar, what they inherently belong to, what they know. because there is safety and confidence in that.

    can’t say it didn’t sting, but it was mild. I’m quite sure my companions there have experienced worse.

    but the point is when it’s the reverse, when the person of color is the minority in a white majority and one or some in that white majority have power, and the white individual(s) gravitate towards what is familiar, what they inherently belong to, what they know, the mild sting turns into something potentially life-altering.

    a bible study is one thing; the career world, the courtroom, etc. are something else- venues of great consequence.

    there may be zero malice, and every desire to be right and fair. Everyone in that bible study had that desire. it didn’t prevent them from turning away from, and turning towards & favoring what was familiar, what they identified with.

    in a bible study, it’s not big a deal. in situations where there is power to change lives (and that power more often than not is held by someone with pale skin) the consequence is potentially great.
    .
    .
    i’m repeating myself.

    i find these topics very complicated and hard to sort out. I look forward to feedback.

  74. Got the Dirty Lowdown?

    hmmm…

    Is the SBC suffering an intrinsic loss of HOPE?
    AND___
    All the things that need to happen but won’t.

    bump

    Will damage to FAITH be next?

    skreeeeetch…

    This religious Jones isn’t where it’s at?

    In the purest pursuit of reformed orthodoxy, will LOVE be net sum sacrificed NEXT?

    I wonder, wonder, wonder?

    Could b.

    Is The SBC, a safe ministry?

    Stay tuned>..

    Sòpy

    Inter mission…
    LOWDOWN’ BOZ SCAGGS cover by
    – GrooveTrain
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I8hk4hyxko

  75. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    I’ve seen people explicitly deny germ theory online recently, saying it’s a Rothschilds’ conspiracy. They conveniently forget that scientists, medics, veterinarians & others work with physical proof of micro-organisms daily, all over the world, looking at pathology slides & similar…you’d think someone would have blown the whistle by now.

    My old vet, Dr Bee, now with Jesus, was the first person to link what he was seeing in cows locally to something ‘like scrapie in sheep’, later confirmed to be Bovine Spongiform Encephalitis, or Mad Cow Disease. Now that wasn’t caused by a bacteria, but a prion (a mutant protein), but it’s just to show these people aren’t messing about & the science is robust.

  76. BeakerN: They conveniently forget that scientists, medics, veterinarians & others work with physical proof of micro-organisms daily, all over the world, looking at pathology slides & similar…you’d think someone would have blown the whistle by now.

    I have only a basic science education, and I’ve looked at germs under a microscope. I also know that I’m much more likely to get a cold if there’s someone with a cold in my vicinity. In the same vein, I’ve stood on mountains or flown in planes and seen the curve of the earth, so I know the earth is not flat. I can’t fathom flat-earthers, because it’s so easy to disprove. With that one, I honestly can’t even fathom why it’s important? There’s nothing about the earth being flat that would improve it over a round earth, and a lot of reasons a round earth revolving around the sun would benefit.

    I’ve been reading some things about conspiracy theorists and what it takes for them to leave their conspiracy theories. Apparently, a lot of them leave because they finally realize that even if their conspiracy theories are true, there’s not much that would change in outing them. Because the world kinda stinks no matter who is in charge of it. Also, to have any impact, a secret cabal eventually becomes public no matter what they do. Otherwise, they are pretty much useless. Yes, sometimes, they “win”, as we saw with the New Cals, but we are seeing now that the New Cals are doing themselves in, because it’s a movement filled with narcissists who all want to be in charge, and their horrible attitudes have just caused people to stop following them.

  77. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    Really, some strange opinions on COVID on this thread. There is a 99.5% recovery with COVID. And to suggest that Governor Abbot and AG Paxton are wrong to open up their state because the science says that masks don’t work, is wrong.

    The female who keeps writing comments about this should look at the volumes of studies that show masking does not work. Even the Pope didn’t wear a mask in Iran. If COVID is so fatal, why wouldn’t a leader like the Pope have worn a mask? Where are the mortality statistics to support her statements?

  78. ishy,

    Perhaps Beth Moore should have demonstrated the kind of resilient faith that “counts it all joy” to endure “suffering” for the cause of Christ rather than to grandstand her wokeness?

  79. Max: This has been a truly puzzling aspect to the COVID crisis.

    My perception is that mass movements need enemies for the sake of identifying the in-group versus out-group boundaries, and for arousing passions that promote the solidarity of the in-group — I suspect that a great deal of JM’s rhetoric can be attributed to this, for example. It may not matter much what the criteria are for assigning “enemy” versus “friend” status.

    It might be that in the course of recent history, the contingencies that led to the identification of sound public health policy as “enemy” were purely accidental. It is not hard for me to imagine that a prior national leader could, with relatively minor modification of rhetoric and behavior (adjustments that were surely advocated by some of his advisors), have provided an example to the nation that would have improved the public health outcomes relative to what actually transpired.

    I don’t think one should expect rationality in what mass movements “decide” to oppose.

  80. ishy: Yes, sometimes, they “win”, as we saw with the New Cals, but we are seeing now that the New Cals are doing themselves in,

    There is a way that seems prosperous to a movement, but the end thereof is ruin

  81. I once read one of Beth Moore’s books. As a man I’m clearly not part of her target audience, but I found her perspective helpful with regard to a personal issue I was dealing with at the time. More recently, I’ve found some of Ms. Moore’s statements to be problematic, and not simply her views concerning a certain political figure. Her gender is not of concern to me; I’m not a complementarian.

    Beth Moore’s decision to leave the SBC will likely cost Lifeway plenty of money, but I don’t see how her departure, in and of itself, will cause much change in the SBC. (Nor did former president Jimmy Carter’s departure from the SBC some years back.) When the SBC is willing to take sexual abuse seriously, eliminates Calvinism and shows J.D. Greear, C.J. Mahaney, Albert Mohler and Paige Patterson the door, that’s when I’ll know major changes are finally taking place.

  82. Charles Scott Shaver,

    Why should she stay up and *count it all for joy*when she can go elsewhere and not have to put up with the garbage? I left and have found a church in which I have been treated respectfully, as well as having my faith stretched. Just like a wife should not stay with an abusive husband, a church member does not have to stay in an abusive system.,

  83. Charles Scott Shaver,

    As one who has an MBA, LifeWay has not been all about money if they were attempting to build a successful business as a purveyor of books, materials, etc. They have made some stupid decisions and paid their CEO way to much money for embarrassingly few results. And then there was the fancy dancy building.

    Moore’s departure will place a further strain on this entity. If I were in charge, I would sell the entire business and enter into a contract with a successful business to distribute the materials. However, that would prevent the SBC from offering another million dollar jobg to a BFF.

  84. Daisy: The negative ramifications of CRT have been in the news constantly the last year, I don’t know how it’s possible to miss this.

    About 99% of what I have read of CRT is disparagement. It puzzles me that a particular scholarly movement from the 1970s is suddenly causing so much furor. That was the root of my rhetorical question.

    For a long time, one of our children played a sport for a team that was mostly African American. When we traveled to certain parts of our county, we were treated as “the black team.” People refused to talk to us. One time the hosting team preemptively summoned the police, before a game, because they “expected trouble” from us. I learned that this was a known technique for painting certain teams as undesirable.

    I guess I should have called the Sun or another tabloid to report this painful incident, but I was more concerned about the safety and emotional wellbeing of a few dozen youngsters.

    As a(n apparently) white person, I felt sickened by this whole experience. Not just because it happened, but because I had been on the white side of such incidents as a child, and had virtually no awareness of my own role, let alone the effect on others.

  85. Samuel Conner,

    You suggest a reasonable hypothesis.. In the fundy world I grew up in, there was a definite “us” vs “them” mentality.. and creating a “us” vs “them” allows rulers to keep the followers in line…

  86. Julann Roe,

    Have you ever seen a 3 month old baby with COVID? My daughter has. Have you ever seen people with the after-effects of COVID like heart issues? My husband has? Have you ever watched a loved one die of COVID? A friend has. Have you ever met a woman who has a seriously disabled young adult child for whom COVID would be devastating? I spoke to a woman at the pharmacy yesterday who was close to tears, worrying about his health. She hasn’t been out of the house except for meds, etc in the past year.

    Keep reading your studies. In the meantime, my family will continue to care for patients and that lady at the pharmacy will continue pray her son gets on the list soon for the vaccine.

  87. singleman,

    I agree with you. The only thing her departure from the SBC may cause is the demise of Lifeway.Well, may be not. The *CEO* of Lifeway is a great position for the boys at the SBC to confer upon one of their buddies. Maybe it will be a giant vacuum cleaner, sucking up $$$ from the SBC to continue instead of closing shop and getting a real company to handle their business.

  88. dee,
    Save your bandwidth, Dee.
    Every word you say is going to be All Fake News, China Virus HOAX Dictated by The Deep State, Librul Lies from the Pit of Hell.

    And such PERSECUTION only makes Julann all the more convinced of Her RIGHTness — after all, the Social Media and Website studies agree with her 110%!

    The Dwarf is for The Dwarf, and Won’t Be Taken In. WWG1WGA!

  89. dee: the demise of Lifeway

    Thom Rainer did the hatchet job on LifeWay before he left for greener pastures. There’s not much left of it.

  90. BeakerN: I’ve seen people explicitly deny germ theory online recently, saying it’s a Rothschilds’ conspiracy.

    Rotschilds?
    That’s an old Code Word for The JOOZ.

    Look at Europe during The Black Death; everyone knew it was caused by The JOOZ pouring poison in Christian wells at night. And the (Final) Solution was obvious.

  91. Samuel Conner: mass movements need enemies for the sake of identifying the in-group versus out-group boundaries

    In the case of Anti-Maskers and Anti-Vaxxers, MacArthur’s fringe of the church (and many others like him), became their own worst enemies. We had friends die of COVID after contracting the disease in church.

  92. Sòpwith: In the purest pursuit of reformed orthodoxy, will LOVE be net sum sacrificed NEXT?

    Look at what happened in the purest pursuit of Marxist-Leninist Orthodoxy.
    (Paging Comrade Pol Pot… Paging Comrade Kim Jong-Un…)

  93. ishy: sometimes, they “win”, as we saw with the New Cals, but we are seeing now that the New Cals are doing themselves in, because it’s a movement filled with narcissists who all want to be in charge, and their horrible attitudes have just caused people to stop following them.

    I think you are onto something here. @2005 was the birth of the Calvinistas. I remember reading about it and thought that this might accelerate the numbers of people leaving the church. The authoritarian thing doesn’t play well. As far as I can see, they have not been terribly successful and lots of people are leaving the church and especially the SBC. But then again they would say that those leaving were not true believers anyway.

    Yesterday, my daughter called me telling me that my Lutheran pastor (who will marry her) sent her the vows for the ceremony. She was gearing up to tell them she would not say the *obey* word. I told her I knew him and I doubted that would be a problem. Well, the vows were perfect and demonstrated mutuality in the promises. So glad I’m out of the SBC.

  94. Muff Potter: JDV: The conversation is growing more robust, going by an article from this week:

    ‘Asian Americans Emerging as a Strong Voice Against Critical Race Theory’

    And how will they (Asian Americans) escape the Paris mob and Madame Guillotine?
    (so to speak)

    The Replubique of Perfect Virtue always beckons with bared breasts from the other side of the “Regrettable but Necessary” Reign of Terror.
    When there are No More Infidels/Heathens, start on the Heretics.
    When there are no more Heretics, start on the Apostates.
    When there are no more Apostates, start on the Insufficiently Devout.
    The Republique of Perfect Virtue beckons.

  95. ishy: we are seeing now that the New Cals are doing themselves in, because it’s a movement filled with narcissists who all want to be in charge

    I “prophesied” that years ago. Narcissism is the elephant in the room with the new reformation. There are too many wannabe chiefs scrambling to get to the pinnacle of the NeoCal pyramid. They all wait for each other to mess up, so they can move up a notch. The movement will kill itself from within … in the meantime, the new reformers have/will do tremendous damage to the Body of Christ in America. But what the enemy meant for evil, can be turned to good “IF” God’s people humble themselves, pray, repent, and turn from their wicked ways … unfortunately, I don’t see much movement in that direction.

  96. Julann Roe,

    Students in my undergrad senior design class conducted a mask study, supported by a MAJOR automobile manufacturer, following well published studies, and proper masks do REDUCE aerosols emitted by humans. All the sound studies I have read say proper masks do help..
    But again, you probably consider me to be part of “deep state”??
    P.S… if you ever need surgery, make sure you tell your surgeon, and all the people to NOT ware masks since it is all BS..

  97. Chrstn:
    Lore Ferguson Wilbert recently posted on social media about her leaving the SBC (The Village) for the Anglican community because she was allegedly stalked, part of a smear campaign and received threats to her family for six years “due to her tie to the system”. I wonder how long she can continue to play victim and make false accusations without ever accepting accountability for what happened here: http://noedenelsewhere.com/from-recovery-to-abuse-part-i/

    Thank you for reminding us about her. I was concerned a couple of years ago. I am not a fan of her writing as well. I need to look into this a little more closely.

  98. dee,

    99.5% Recovery. Read the statistics. And have compassion for those who are sick.
    The COVID – 19 virus was never isolated. America’s Frontline Doctors. This all depends on whom you are listening to. Which doctors? Which epidemiologists? There is no agreement. So please, be careful to denigrate those who have different perspectives.

  99. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    No, Dr. Kory. America’s Frontline Doctors. Such a Christian approach to gaslight me. I have the freedom to believe other medical professionals, is that not the case Mr. Protestant?

  100. dee: they would say that those leaving were not true believers anyway

    “They went out from us, but they were not of us” … in my case, they got that right! Why would I want to attend a church where Jesus is not present? Heck, the New Calvinists hardly drop His name … they quote Piper et al. more than they do the words in red. So Jesus just moves on down the road and they never miss Him.

  101. Julann Roe,

    So, is the > 500,000 deaths in the US attributed to the COVID just BS?…
    is my classmate, that was still on supplimental oxygen, after being sick with COVID for ten week just full s$&#?

  102. dee,

    Some folks handle adversity better than others. Holds true for Christians and non Christians alike.

    Beth Moore is free to affiliate or hang with whomever she wishes.

    I won’t be losing any sleep for her OR the SBC.

  103. Julann Roe,

    Never isolated? I have been on NIH panels that evaluated technologies to detected COVID… we know what COVID is… are you saying I am a full of s$&#?

  104. Jeffrey Chalmers,

    What is the size of the filter of an N-95 mask? What is the size of the COVID virus? In the operating room, what is the HVAC system? How many times does the air in the operating room turn over in an hour? What training does OSHA give to the physicians in the hospital on proper mask protocol? What are the protocols for masks written by OSHA (hint: they were written in the 1970’s)?

  105. Julann Roe,

    Your very question demonstrate you do understand filtration… I could direct you to textbooks we use, but given your wanting to believe what you want, I doubt you believe it anyway…

  106. dee,

    I’m not sure the SBC has successfully carried out a “business model” since prior to the CR debacle.

  107. Jeffrey Chalmers,

    How many of those deaths were directly because of COVID? How many deaths had co-morbidities? How many deaths were written down as COVID because of a financial incentive from the government? Are the general flu statistics the same as last year or non-existent as of today? How many deaths could have been prevented after June 2020 if Fauci and the NIH wouldn’t have demonized hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin, because of their links to Bill Gates and Fauci’s investments in the vaccine companies? Why do you believe whom you believe?

  108. I gotta get “political” on this.
    All the Christian attitude and behavior that has come under scrutiny here at TWW – the YRRs, the CELEBRITY MegaPastor cults, the male-supremacy, the fanatical LOYALTY to the above – explains why Christians have become so totally fanatically politicized over the past few years.

    They just transferred that behavior from their Church sphere into the Political sphere.
    Direct lateral transfer from Private Revelation/Dreams/Visions to QAnon Q-drops.
    Direct lateral transfer from My Celebrity Christian Leader to He Who Must Not Be Named.
    Direct lateral transfer from one church-turned-CULT to a political CULT-turned-New-Church.
    Retaining all the RIGHTeousness and Fanatical Attitude they learned in Fundagelicalism.

  109. Julann Roe,

    Your response is priceless…. but you forgot some more of the internet conspiracy theories:
    The virus was created by the Chinese to destroy us
    The virus was created by the Democrats to destroy “45”
    That the system was purposely restricting tests to make “45” look bad, or just plain incompetent ( I had a 45 supporter say my wife, a physician, was incompetent in being able to get her patients tested last March)
    I could go on…. I bet you could also….

  110. Max,

    Perhaps the apparent demise of Lifeway was a contributing factor behind Beth Moore’s silent and graceful departure from the SBC as opposed to misogyny and racism?

  111. Julann Roe: There is a 99.5% recovery with COVID.

    Sounds like you’ve been taking your queue on COVID from John MacArthur. Responding to a question from one of his church members on whether or not Christians should get vaccinated, JMac responded:

    “As it is now, you have a 99.998% chance of having no lasting effect from COVID. From what we hear, the vaccine is 94% effective. So, why reduce your odds.”

    As of the count today, 530,000 Americans didn’t have that chance. Medical professionals have known since the 17th century that masks help prevent respiratory disease. Vaccines have been used successfully since the 18th century. An anti-mask/anti-vax attitude has no place in a civilized society, where scientific advancements in healthcare are designed to protect us not limit us.

    (as a side note, this is the first year in my long journey on planet earth that I have not had a winter cold … I attribute that to wearing a mask, social distancing, and sanitizing … long after COVID is gone, I’ll still be doing those things during the cold/flu season)

  112. dee: Thank you for reminding us about her. I was concerned a couple of years ago. I am not a fan of her writing as well. I need to look into this a little more closely.

    No problem. Her post was perfectly timed around the day the news broke about Beth Moore. Her reasoning is a really strange reason to “leave the SBC”. Her allegiance has never been to the SBC. It has always been to The Village Church and Matt Chandler. The fact that they happen to be part of the SBC has never been a factor for her, at least publicly. So for her to piggyback off of what is popular in the news right now seems disingenuous to say the least. She was never a victim in that system. Ever. She was in the in crowd. Given a platform. Had a book published. Gained followers on Instagram because of her ties. The list goes on. She alluded to the fact that she left because she was scared of “stalking, smear campaign and threats to her family” because of her ties to SBC. It allegedly happened for six years, so it would have started around 2015. The timeframe where she had a falling out with a roommate and the word got around about Lore’s spiritual abuse. She is not a victim of anything. No one has stalked her. The blog post about her was not a smear campaign. No one has threatened her. And nothing brought against her has ever had anything to do with her ties to SBC. If anything, it was her ties to Acts 29. She will go to her grave never accepting responsibility for anything, and she will have to answer to God for that.

  113. Jeffrey Chalmers,

    What is scary, Jeffrey, is that there millions of Americans holding the same views as Julann. We will never get 75 % Americans vaccinated to achieve the desired herd immunity against COVID. Heck, we can’t get 75% of the populace to agree on anything!

  114. dee–we lived between Farmington and Bloomfield when hantavirus hit. That was a truly scary time, huh? SOOO glad it was not politicized. Can you imagine that, since it did on occasion go pneumonic and spread person to person.

    I think the response to covid may or at least could open some eyes to the truly dangerous path of denying science due to one’s religion.

    Covid is real, and masks work. In fact, they may work in another way besides slowing direct spread. Now we know there is correlation between pollen levels and covid levels. From what I read it does not matter if a person has pollen allergies or not. Pollen inhibits the natural production of natural antivirals. Wear a mask and eyewear also reduces pollen exposure, which may be very important this year.

    I assume your area gets a “pollen fall” in the spring. We get it here, where cars etc just turn yellow from the heavy layer of fallen pollen.

    Mask up everybody!

  115. Daisy: Most recently, and amazingly, the school subject of Mathematics was deemed “racist.”

    And, some of the CRT crowd have seriously argued in the past few months that “2 + 2 = 5” is a correct answer; if one says, no, there is only one correct answer to that math problem (which would be “4”), one is told no, that type of thinking is a sign of “white privilege.”

    It’s hard to fathom how standard arithmetic could even remotely have racist undertones. I can’t wait to see what they can derive from a standard equation of a line in slope-intercept form: y = mx + b
    If these people ever came to power (perish the thought!) I’m certain Orwell’s works would top the list of banned books.

  116. Julann Roe: How many of those deaths were directly because of COVID? How many deaths had co-morbidities?

    The CDC publishes a chart called “Weekly number of deaths (from all causes).” It shows abnormal numbers of deaths every single week from 28 March 2020 until 13 Feb 2021. (Note that it takes a few weeks for local coroners to report deaths to state and US authorities.) The chart itself goes all the way back to January 2017, offering four years of data.

    Take a look, and ask yourself whether this astronomical number of dead Americans would have died anyway.

    To view the bar chart, go to the link and scroll down:

    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

  117. Julann Roe: The female who keeps writing comments about this should look at the volumes of studies that show masking does not work. Even the Pope didn’t wear a mask in Iran. If COVID is so fatal, why wouldn’t a leader like the Pope have worn a mask? Where are the mortality statistics to support her statements?

    Them female’s just keep writing, don’t they?

    The pope was in Iraq, not Iran.

    No worries, them females have been messing with geography. Messing with the maps…no doubt for their own nefarious deep state purposes.

  118. Julann Roe: How many of those deaths were directly because of COVID? How many deaths had co-morbidities? How many deaths were written down as COVID because of a financial incentive from the government? Are the general flu statistics the same as last year or non-existent as of today? How many deaths could have been prevented after June 2020 if Fauci and the NIH wouldn’t have demonized hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin, because of their links to Bill Gates and Fauci’s investments in the vaccine companies? Why do you believe whom you believe?

    Look, gang. I’m not saying it’s aliens…but it’s aliens…

  119. Max,

    Max. I appreciate everything you wrote. I question, however, the attitude which insists that “anti-vaccination/anti-masks attitudes have no place in a civilized society”.

    Historically, there have always been anti-mask and anti-vaccine attitudes expressed by portions of the populations of ALL “civilized societies”. Don’t see that ending anytime in the future as long as humans are humans.

    Are you suggesting gulags or something as alternative placement for those who “have no place” among the civilized?

  120. Jack: Look, gang. I’m not saying it’s aliens…but it’s aliens…

    Well then, they need to get Tommy Lee Jones and Will Smith on it like pronto!

  121. The north american demographic has changed irrevocably. The principles of the constitution have never been applied fairly. To women or folks who have been marginalized by orientation or race.
    These folks are coming to the table and they’ve been suppressed for a long time. It’s going to get loud and cantankerous.
    This will lead to extremist behavior on all sides. Don’t get pulled into the rhetoric but we do need to listen to these voices and accept that not everyone has been treated fairly.
    The generation that’s speaking up now were kids who no doubt heard the stories of their parents and grandparents. They have a different perspective from those who controlled the standard narrative.

  122. dee: I agree with you. The only thing her departure from the SBC may cause is the demise of Lifeway.Well, may be not. The *CEO* of Lifeway is a great position for the boys at the SBC to confer upon one of their buddies. Maybe it will be a giant vacuum cleaner, sucking up $$$ from the SBC to continue instead of closing shop and getting a real company to handle their business.

    Moore has made them a lot of money because her materials are a lot less targeted than most New Calvinist books and studies. The New Calvinists are so insular that they can’t write outside of their box. And that doesn’t market well. But I don’t think they are capable of moving out of the box.

    But I laugh when people think Lifeway is all about “biblical truth”. They’re not. They’re about money, and that’s all there is to it. I worked at NAMB and saw how that crowd works.

  123. JDV: What could go wrong?

    Probably less wrong than unmasked political gatherings across several states spreading Covid-19.

    You’d think they would have tested them before they released them, though.

  124. Bridget: You’d think they would have tested them before they released them, though.

    The NBC article goes into intriguing detail. Asylum seekers are in a category of legal migration. These individuals tested positive and were given advice about quarantining and seeking medical help.

    This is not unlike what happens with other people in the US, which has 4% of the world’s population but 25% of the world’s covid cases. If I tested positive, I would be given advice about treatment and travel, but nobody would force me into isolation. (I have an isolation plan, and would follow it willingly.)

    Some US colleges do have rules for resident students who test positive: they must either decamp to an isolation dorm or go home for 10 days or so. Close contacts of these students, such as roommates, are often sent home too. Those who go home expose their families, often carrying the virus onto aircraft and buses, across state lines.

  125. Max,

    This “question of co-morbity” just demonstrates the ignorance of those that raise it….
    I have published papers with well qualified, experienced clinicians that deal with metastatic breast cancer and head and neck cancer. Years ago I had discussions with them about what actually “kills” patients with meta static cancer. Their response? “Jeff, that is a great question”… most apparently die from general organ failure, or their blood chemistry “going to he&&”… So, the complications of unrestrained cell growth ( i.e. cancer) kills them… and of course, many people with metastatic cancer are older with other “underlying conditions”… so guess what, those underlying conditions could “kill them”…
    or what about diabetes… common “cause of death” of long term diabetes patients is cardo-vascular failures.. so, what “killed them”?
    If you follow this persons questioning, or good old JohnyMac, the majority of the statics of death are wrong…. sigh….
    but, do not forget, JohnMac is a true “Man of God” that believes the Bible… I am just one of those evil, secular humanist, scientists.l.

  126. Charles Scott Shaver,

    You are aware that it was not solely Southern Baptists who bought her books, etc. I went to a bible study in one of my former churches that used her material and we were (and I continue to be) Charismatic.

  127. Max: We will never get 75 % Americans vaccinated to achieve the desired herd immunity against COVID.

    And I can testify personally that the vaccine works. About 3 wks after my 2nd vaccine, my daughter and then husband came down with COVID. Daughter coughed in my face (not her fault, she gagged while I was doing a Strep swab) and I slept next to my husband until he developed a fever – but did not get sick myself! 🙂 (and they seem to be recovered, though hubby got the monoclonal antibodies which likely helped)

  128. Jack: Them female’s just keep writing, don’t they?

    General curious thought …

    Does anyone here at TWW post with a gender-indicating name that is actually not the writer’s gender? Just wondering… And if so, wondering why.

    Non-indicating monikers work, too, like “Commenter” or “Follower of Jesus” or “Atheist” or “Baptist”. So, if some comment names cross gender, if that does occur, wondering why.

    Just thoughts. Your (question to all) thoughts?

  129. Friend: Asylum seekers are in a category of legal migration.

    I’m aware of the above.

    Glad they were tested and advised. They should be treated no different than anyone else once they’ve entered legally as asylum seekers.

  130. Julann Roe,

    Jack: The pope was in Iraq, not Iran.

    The Pope has also been vaccinated. Imagine that!

    I guess Julann would be just fine getting open heart surgery while no one in surgery is wearing a mask, since masks don’t work according to her.

  131. Bridget: I’m aware of the above.

    Glad they were tested and advised. They should be treated no different than anyone else once they’ve entered legally as asylum seekers.

    Agreed. Sometimes it’s hard to craft a response to a commenter and also include others, especially if some commenters/lurkers are wary of clicking links. That’s why I specified some things.

  132. Ava Aaronson: Does anyone here at TWW post with a gender-indicating name that is actually not the writer’s gender? Just wondering… And if so, wondering why.

    Yes, people do. Why they do is something only they can answer.

  133. Ava Aaronson,

    “Does anyone here at TWW post with a gender-indicating name that is actually not the writer’s gender? Just wondering… And if so, wondering why.”
    +++++++++++++

    elsewhere in social media / blogging land, I tend to participate in christian topics amongst other participants who are mostly christians. I use a male name. For a very good reason:

    When I use female name, I am either talked down to, mocked, or ignored altogether by christian men (regardless of how reasonably-put together my comments are).

    that’s the net effect of this religion of mine. isn’t it lovely.

  134. Jack: The north american demographic has changed irrevocably. The principles of the constitution have never been applied fairly. To women or folks who have been marginalized by orientation or race.
    These folks are coming to the table and they’ve been suppressed for a long time. It’s going to get loud and cantankerous.

    New book coming out. Voices.

    “White Evangelical Racism: The Politics of Morality in America”
    UNC Press*
    Author: @AntheaButler

    *”University of North Carolina Press publishes distinguished scholarship and superb general interest books. Founded in 1922.”

  135. ishy: Moore has made them a lot of money because her materials are a lot less targeted than most New Calvinist books and studies.

    I’ve never been able to pinpoint Beth Moore’s exact theological persuasion. Is she a Calvinist?

  136. Max: I’ve never been able to pinpoint Beth Moore’s exact theological persuasion. Is she a Calvinist?

    She talks about free will, so no. I think she’s more old school Baptist, and has theology similar to Paige Patterson.

    Anybody who claims Beth Moore is “liberal” doesn’t care about truth, just discrediting her without reason. She might be not extreme right-wing, but the assertion that she’s a liberal because she is against sexual abuse and racism is ridiculous. She’s said many of the same things as faker SBC pastors like Greear, but that she challenges them to follow through and act on what they say makes her “liberal”.

  137. readingalong: (and they seem to be recovered, though hubby got the monoclonal antibodies which likely helped)

    Monocolonal antibodies are now generally available as a treatment?
    I thought they were only for the Rich with Connections.

  138. Look, Julann is obviously a COVID Truther. And like TURHT!ers everywhere from 9/11 to Obama Birth Certificate, there is NOTHING that will shake their FAITH.

    The Dwarfs are for the Dwarfs, and Won’t Be Taken In.

  139. Julann Roe: une 2020 if Fauci and the NIH wouldn’t have demonized hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin, because of their links to Bill Gates and Fauci’s investments in the vaccine companies?

    doubleplusgoodthnk/doubleplusduckspeak!

    Regarding Hydorxy and that other miracle drug, do you also have the “PERSECUTION of Donald Trump” add-on? THanks to TRUTHers like you, there is now so much noise about “HydroxycholorQAnon” that there is NO discernible signal left.

  140. d4v1d: “Why didn’t the church announce that young earth creationism was a mandatory belief of the church?”

    This is now default evangelical theology. Remember when confessing Christvas Lord and Savior was point one – in fact, the only point. Now it’s the heretical notion of “inerrancy,” and at my evangelical alma mater, this is now first; confession of Christ is *fourth.*

    I think Inerrancy becomes little more than, “My literal reading of this English translation is infallible.”

    It is disonest of the church not to say up front that a Young Earth view is required, since that is something they go on about. It seems to me really kind of a bleak and faithless worldview – they must feel panic and dread at each new scientific discovery and either deny the science or read a garbled version of the science into the Bible. I remember that recently scientists have found that some dinosaurs might have had feathers, and I heard about Creationists arguing about whether feather-adorned dinosaurs fit into a “biblical worldview” or not (I’m not joking). I guess I should find out since my salvation might depend on how colorful dinosaurs were, lol.

    I know conservative Lutheran churches like the LCMS have doubled down on Young Earth Creationism, so it is not just a fundamentalist or non-denominational church thing.

  141. Julann Roe,

    That leaves .5% who don’t recover. And .5% of a huge number is a lot of people. Like over half a million. Because math. My mother, who was very healthy for her age and on zero medications, passed away from covid after being hospitalized for 3 weeks. She was alone. Nobody was allowed to visit her. We could not get calls in to her because she was too weak to answer them and the staff was too slammed to facilitate a call. She suffered unbearably without the comfort of her family.

    Now multiply that suffering and distress by hundreds of thousands. It seems to me that a follower of Jesus would not be claiming their “right” not to wear a mask, or argue about the science, but instead would be a good neighbor, show love towards others, and put on a mask that might, just might, save some of those hundreds of thousand of lives.

  142. I’m not sure Critical Race Theorists (at least those considered half way good) say 2 + 2 = 5. Or if they are, please point to the original work.

    They could be pointing out that even though 2 + 2 = 4 the underlying situation might be modeled wrongly or have other issues so 2 + 2 isn’t the right question. For instance (and not Critical Race Theory here) suppose one is counting places of worship in a town. One person might note that a town website lists 2 Baptist Churches and 2 Presbyterian church so say 2 + 2 = 4. Correct summing. However, another person notes the website manager possibly has a bit of a bias so walks around town looking for church buildings and comes up with 7 (the 4 from the website plus the Catholic, Episcopalian, and Orthodox churches). Person 1 might riposte that Person 2 is saying 2 + 2 = 7. Yet another person notes that person 2 was only counting churches so adds in the synagogue and the mosque that are also in the town and comes up with 9. Yet another person adds in groups (several households) that worship in someone’s house and don’t have a special building (she does a door to door survey) and get a few more (a Wicca Circle and a few house churches). And yet another person might note that quite a few people worship in their own homes with their families or individually (so adds in all the houses which have family or personal prayers or religious rituals). What is the correct answer?

  143. Leila,

    Please accept my sympathy on the death of your beloved mother. That must have been so very hard for your whole family. The isolation of the ill is an awful feature of this terrible time.

    You were kind to share this painful story, and I thank you for doing so.

  144. Erp: I’m not sure Critical Race Theorists (at least those considered half way good) say 2 + 2 = 5. Or if they are, please point to the original work.

    I don’t think so, either. But I’ve also noticed that the argument has become “CRT is evil, so we can’t talk about racism at all!” I wonder if that is what Dwight McKissik has been talking about when he says we shouldn’t throw it all out, even if you don’t like CRT. On the other hand, why can’t reasonable academics study theories they don’t agree with?

    And that makes me think that racism is very much a topic that needs to be explored in the SBC. I especially believe that to be so because the New Calvinists are using the same language to defend the subordination of women as the founders did for slavery. I think the SBC is dying, maybe even quickly, because they won’t talk about anything they don’t agree with, because they really don’t have the intellectual capability, nor the theological fortitude, to do so. They’re a bunch of pretend academics who really just want to create generations of brainwashed pastor-minions who obey without actual faith.

  145. Headless Unicorn Guy: Monocolonal antibodies are now generally available as a treatment?
    I thought they were only for the Rich with Connections.

    They now have emergency use authorization, like the vaccines. A Dr. has to order the infusion, and there are criteria to meet, but at least where I live there is not a shortage. Some criteria: Mild enough symptoms to not need hospital or Oxygen therapy; symptomatic and w/in 10 days of starting symptoms. Age 65+ qualifies, as does any age with BMI > 35; also age > 55 w/ certain medical conditions.

  146. ishy: “CRT is evil, so we can’t talk about racism at all!”

    Insightful comment as always.

    Back in the day, people where I lived were fine, in theory, with the idea of civil rights. However, we shouldn’t listen to Martin Luther King, because he was (supposedly, mind you) a communist who smoked and cheated on his wife. At least he was non-violent, you say? Well, he SAYS that, but look at all the violence that just happens to follow all of his non-violent activities.

    So who else was there. Malcolm X? Radical! Angela Davis? Just look at the hair! We weren’t allowed to wonder what made these figures so adamant.

    Any black person who ran for office was automatically viewed as violent, corrupt, ridiculous, or angling for reparations. It’s stunning to recall how people in my town laughed and laughed at Shirley Chisholm’s campaign for president.

    Things have improved, but the echoes are loud.

  147. ishy: I wonder if that is what Dwight McKissik has been talking about when he says we shouldn’t throw it all out, even if you don’t like CRT. On the other hand, why can’t reasonable academics study theories they don’t agree with?

    Exactly. Blaming everything going on in our society right now on CRT is simply absurd. Also, painting it as ‘evil’ is just a lazy way of not wanting to study it at all. I wish people would stop with black/white with no gray at all when making judgments, especially something a “theory.”

  148. JDV: “After Border Patrol release, asylum-seekers test positive for Covid in Brownsville, Texas”
    ‘A number of migrants seeking asylum and released by Border Patrol have tested positive to Covid-19 tests in Brownsville, Texas. Some plan to continue their journey to other cities and states.‘

    What could go wrong?

    We could send them back to warzones?

    One of the things I’ve done in the last couple of weeks is completely drop Japanese to work on getting my Spanish up to fluency. As part of that, I’m reading Spanish-language newspapers. What I’ve learned is that Honduras and Guatemala are in drug wars that are fairly hot, and México’s is rather warm. I don’t know the players in Honduras and Guatemala, but for México, a good chunk of the trouble is coming from the Cartel Jalisco Nueva Generación (the successor to El Chapo’s cartel) duking it out with other, older cartels.

    In asylum law, immigrants are supposed to stop at the first country they come to that is stable and apply for asylum there. The question to be asked, “Is México stable?” Uhm, probably not.

    I’d also note that migration problems are not limited to Central Americans coming over the border. In the USA, we also have the problem of people overstaying their visas for all sorts of reasons, but the people doing that are those who can get visas to the USA in the first place. Other countries have immigration problems as well. I read an article yesterday from Chile about how, at Chile’s very northern border with Bolivia (which btw, is the Atacama desert) Venezuelans who had crossed illegally from Bolivia, were being flown back to Venezuela. If you look at a map of South America, you’ll see that the Venezuelans have to have crossed other countries to get to the Chilean border. In fact, it’s estimated that 4.6 million Venezuelans have exited the country in the last 8 years or so. A good chunk are in Colombia, but there’s quite a few here in the USA.

    Another country with an immigration problem is China at its North Korean border. So many North Koreans are desperate to escape the Hermit Kingdom that they’re willing to risk their lives to cross the Yalu River. But the North Korean army is there to try and catch them and send them to “reeducation camp”. China doesn’t want the North Koreans, and sees them as economic migrants. But a good chunk of the more organized migrants (as in, they found the money to pay people smugglers) are not staying in China; instead they’re smuggled out again to a third country like Laos or Thailand, which have South Korean embassies, and then they’re taken and resettled in South Korea.

    Immigration is a complex topic, it can’t be described as “they’re a plague.” In fact, before COVID-19, it was far more likely, due to frequent vaccination campaigns, that Central American refugees would have all their shots, as opposed to certain Americans who are vaccine-hesitant for themselves and their children.

  149. Leila,

    Thanks for courageously sharing. My heart goes out to you. Sorry for your loss. God bless. You are right. This is about much more than numbers. Each person is precious.

  150. ishy: I can’t fathom flat-earthers, because it’s so easy to disprove. With that one, I honestly can’t even fathom why it’s important? There’s nothing about the earth being flat that would improve it over a round earth, and a lot of reasons a round earth revolving around the sun would benefit.

    If the earth was flat, cats would have pushed everything off the edges already, as every cat valet knows.

  151. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    Thanks so much studying & then sharing information. Learned so much from reading your comment.

    Note to all: On twitter, Dee is asking about agencies working to help prevent trafficking at the US Southern border. Perhaps you saw her question and responded? Anyway, she appreciates anyone sharing this information there.

  152. Julann Roe: Really, some strange opinions on COVID on this thread.

    Not opinions, *facts*. Facts that COVID-19 deniers like my congressman try to sweep under the rug.

    There’s so much I could say here, but I will just make two statements: so far 99.5 percent “recovery” means 500,000 plus people dead in the USA. And it does not take into account people with “long COVID.” One of my friends caught COVID early and had one of the odd manifestations (mostly in her gut). So now, we’re a year later and she has postural tachycardia, which I invite you to look up. She can’t sit up in bed or stand up from a chair without her heart rate hitting 190 bpm, which was NOT a problem before she had COVID-19. She hopes that it will resolve itself over time, but so far that hasn’t happened. She is not the only one.

    As for masks, I would note that Japan, a wildly crowded country (126 million people crammed into a mountainous island chain the size of California), has had far fewer people get sick and die from COVID. That’s because there is a tradition of wearing masks in Japan when you’re sick or suffering allergies, as a courtesy to others. Because, basically, anywhere you go that is a city, there are lots and lots and lots of people around you. Oh, and another thing–mask wearing is so ubiquitous in Japan that the conbinis (convenience stores) have a section, sometimes an endcap, filled with various types of disposable masks. When the pandemic started a year ago, and PPE was in very short supply, I would dream that I was standing in front of those masks, and I’d wake up just as I reached to buy a package.

    The proof is in the stats: for a country with 126 million people, Japan has had 8,457 deaths. Part of this has to do with the masks, but part of it also has to do with Japan being very willing to lock down the country to avoid spread of COVID-19 variants. It was announced this week that only 2,000 persons per day are to be allowed into the country–including returning Japanese citizens–and they have to go through 14 day quarantine to ensure they’re not sick.

    You’d probably be opposed to masking up, limiting entry and requiring quarantine. Am I right?

  153. Friend,
    Thank you. It isn’t hard for me to accept my mother’s death. It’s terribly hard to accept that she was alone without family by her side. For the life of me I can’t understand how many self-identifying Christians are completely against the just-plain-kindness of mask wearing at this time.

  154. Ava Aaronson,

    Ava, thank you. I think the numbers are staggering. More American deaths than WWI, WWII, the Vietnam War, and 9/11. One in three Americans has lost a loved one to covid. Every death is, as you say, the death of someone very precious.

  155. Charles Scott Shaver: Perhaps Beth Moore should have demonstrated the kind of resilient faith that “counts it all joy” to endure “suffering” for the cause of Christ rather than to grandstand her wokeness?

    *cough* Beth isn’t woke. She still considers LGBTQIA people to be “not righteous.” This is, at best, unhelpful.

  156. Leila: For the life of me I can’t understand how many self-identifying Christians are completely against the just-plain-kindness of mask wearing at this time.

    Many American “Christians” have a spirit of rebellion on them. They wear “Don’t tell me what to do!” on their shirt sleeves rather than masks. Christ didn’t set us free to abuse our Christian liberties. When it comes to protecting the health of others, Christians should be setting the example to others, rather than rebelling against the recommendations of health and government authorities who know a whole lot more than they do about this deadly disease.

    I’m sorry about your mother, Leila.

  157. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: The proof is in the stats: for a country with 126 million people, Japan has had 8,457 deaths. Part of this has to do with the masks, but part of it also has to do with Japan being very willing to lock down the country to avoid spread of COVID-19 variants. It was announced this week that only 2,000 persons per day are to be allowed into the country–including returning Japanese citizens–and they have to go through 14 day quarantine to ensure they’re not sick.

    Proof, yet again, that the Japanese are more intelligent than Americans. Additionally, in their culture, they take better care of each other than we do in the good ‘ole USA. It’s considered an honor to personally care for the aged and sick there – we have institutions that relieve us of that responsibility.

  158. Julann Roe,

    I am going to ask you to move along. We are not discussing COVID and I think you will find a more receptive audience elsewhere. I am putting you into moderation.

  159. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: We could send them back to warzones?

    Immigration is a complex topic, it can’t be described as “they’re a plague.” In fact, before COVID-19, it was far more likely, due to frequent vaccination campaigns, that Central American refugees would have all their shots, as opposed to certain Americans who are vaccine-hesitant for themselves and their children.

    Circling back to the original post to which I replied:

    If neighboring states are smart, they’d be closing their borders to any and all Texans.

    My reply: “Speaking of border closings for virus containment, this Telemundo special report didn’t get quite the headlines as the restriction relaxation, but is massively concerning as far as mixed signals and real dangers of spreading the virus”

    The massive concern in this particular case has to do with virus spread. As a later post brought back up the issue of limiting entry and requiring quarantine as part of a separate back-and-forth, it’s a matter of consistent policy with all of that. The government either needs to provide that across-the-board.

    I don’t see a lot of villainy amongst the consistent posters here as far as indifference to human suffering, a “they’re a plague” mindset, etc, especially given the consistent subject matter of this site. I mean, sure, there might be grievous wolves amongst posters or hireling equivalents who can’t see the forest for the superstructure, but one can hope the majority are here for legitimate reasons and worthwhile purposes.

  160. Bridget: Exactly. Blaming everything going on in our society right now on CRT is simply absurd. Also, painting it as ‘evil’ is just a lazy way of not wanting to study it at all. I wish people would stop with black/white with no gray at all when making judgments, especially something a “theory.”

    I actually read the original “debate” and I’ll be honest, there was very little evidence in the “proof” that CRT or even racism was being discussed at all. It was a big reach.

    But having known Paige Patterson, it was his regular tactic to call out some political issue and act like it was the end of the world. And he always picked an angle that the majority of average Southern Baptists were going to pay little attention to, especially since it was usually more academic than mainstream. He really believed that would keep him at the top of the SBC totem pole. I don’t think I’m going too far out on a limb to say this tactic has been an abject failure for him. It’s not going to win back the SBC from the New Calvinists.

    If Patterson and friends had gone after Calvinism, instead of politics, they might have gotten somewhere.

  161. Headless Unicorn Guy: They just transferred that behavior from their Church sphere into the Political sphere.

    I just started reading “The Anointed” by Stephens and Giberson – it has something to say about this, too.

  162. Headless Unicorn Guy: Did he wear a kewpie-doll fauxhawk and a Mickey Mouse T-shirt, threaten everyone, and have a potty mouth like Avisarla from The Expanse?

    Nor did he complain about wives “letting themselves go” while wearing said Mickey Mouse t-shirt.

    No, actually, he was a good man who (despite these blinders) helped give me faith in other Christians, again. This was back in 2007. He was a young, single guy still in seminary pastoring bi-vocationally a congregation mostly made of young, single, ex-pat (read, “independent”) women. On the surface a recipe for disaster, possibly, but it was the best church experience I’ve ever had.

    It’s complicated.

  163. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: If the earth was flat, cats would have pushed everything off the edges already, as every cat valet knows.

    Nope. The sea dragons at the edge would scare the cats enough to keep them back. You know. The sea dragons that are shown on all the accurate world maps.

  164. Charles Scott Shaver: grandstand her wokeness?

    So it’s woke to care about the victims of sexual abuse, to expose poor treatment of women, to resist racism & sexism, to expect your denomination to follow Christ’s teaching, not one political figure? Count me in. Can you give me examples of Beth’s ‘wokeness’ that are not, at root, concern for decent things?
    The origin of ‘woke’ is in African-American culture to mean to be aware of, & stay aware of, injustices. Be wary of caricaturing that to the point where being concerned about injustice makes you a laughing stock.

  165. NC Now: Nope. The sea dragons at the edge would scare the cats enough to keep them back. You know. The sea dragons that are shown on all the accurate world maps.

    My cat would be way more afraid of the sea than the sea dragon. I think it’s the water they want to avoid…

  166. ishy: If Patterson and friends had gone after Calvinism, instead of politics, they might have gotten somewhere.

    IMO, Patterson wimped out when confronted with the more “intellectual” Mohler. He knew he couldn’t win the “C” debate when challenged with all their crafty arguments and twisted Scripture. But, of course that’s been going on in the SBC on several fronts … otherwise good whosoever-will Gospel leaders surrendered without firing a shot to the New Calvinist onslaught.

    Church history will record that a once-great evangelistic denomination was Calvinized because 45,000+ non-Calvinist SBC pastors did not inform their membership of the shifting belief and practice, to prepare them for the battle. I lay the primary fault in the demise of SBC at the feet of local church leaders who did not inform and prepare their congregations to make a stand against New Calvinism. It’s been an easy task for the Mohlerites to plunder all the SBC stuff (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, church planting program, thousands of once-Non-Calvinist churches). As an ex-SBCer, a member for 70+ years, it’s the darnedest thing I’ve ever seen in Christendom. If nothing else, Al Mohler has been a brilliant strategist and commander in chief of the SBC takeover.

  167. Tina–I live in the Ozarks, and some days if there is a breeze in pollen season you can see clouds of the stuff move along the road. My glider on the porch is normally bright red. In pollen season it is yellow. Ditto our white truck.

    Max–honestly I believe Beth Moore’s theology is whatever sells at the moment. When I first encountered her sessions in church she was pretty dispy, pretty rapture ready. Then fast forward about 10 or 15 years and she was full of talk about our being “chosen” in a way that fit well with the Calvinists. Right now, last one I listened to, she is pretty much in the same vein as Joyce Meyer. Joyce was word of faith but her later writings are pretty much once saved always saved with a strong layer of the old Holiness Movement tucked in. (And some LCMS perspective, which is also in her background.)

    Beth’s “wokeness” seems to me less about true justice and more about surface good girlness. Less about helping people sign up to vote and more about paying for the gas of the car behind you at the filling station or for the food at a fast food place. All of which are things the truly poor are not likely to be doing anyway. She has a video out about when “God told her to brush the hair of the old man at the airport.” Now, it is highly entertaining. Old time holiness folks will eat up the “God told me” and “Sometimes Jesus is just so pushy” and that sort of thing. Her root premise that we should be open to the leadership of the Holy Spirit is spot on. But there is a twist: it isn’t rooted in Scripture as it could have been. Rather, it comes out more as “Get saved and sanctified (my words, not hers, but a synopsis) and then everything that pops into your pretty little head is of God and to be obeyed.”

    She has moved over to the Holiness movement in regards to women preaching, and since that has been debated for ages no need to rehash it here. She as far as I know is truly pro life, not just limiting that to the anti abortion stand, which is only one leg of the prolife chair so to speak. She still holds the line that scripture forbids homosexual activity while being open that if that is your proclivity it must be a hard row to hoe, trying to live a pure life. But she is clear that it is also hard to live a pure life if you are straight and single and with a situation that makes marriage unlikely. She does advocate all humans should be treated with dignity regardless.

    But again, it is too perfected and polished, too all about Beth, and most importantly, as time goes by you can see her following whatever the fad of the moment is in the Christian Industrial Complex. And right now she is drinking heavily from the Paula White, Joel Osteen, and Joyce Meyer fountain.

    They do get some things right that some of us miss. But I urge everyone who regularly studies Beth Moore material to branch out to other teachers who are much more Bible based. Old time Calvies like Kay Arthur have some good stuff. Old time dispys like Anne Graham Lotz have some good stuff. And my personal faves are Hannah Whitall Smith, the LCMS Portals of Prayer Bible, and the RCC Lectio Divina Prayer Bible. Think there may be two similar titles there. I mean the one with devotions on every page. Or the more evangelical Abide Bible. And yes, Joel’s Hope Bible and Joyce Meyer’s two devotional Bibles can be helpful also.

    Just saying be careful and keep some very Scripture based writers in the mix.

  168. NC Now: Tempered glass sides. Like on those endless pools.

    Careful now, you’re about to create a new theology. 😉

    If you want help developing this, I’d suggest naming your church Endless.

  169. linda: fast forward about 10 or 15 years and she was full of talk about our being “chosen” in a way that fit well with the Calvinists

    That would explain why the New Calvinist SBCers in my area have (had) no problem sending their wimmenfolk to Moore’s conferences/simulcasts.

  170. linda,

    I have learned something from all the folks you list. The key is to listen carefully and filter their words through Scripture to see if what they are saying is truth. It seems that I have to sort out error from truth from all their teachings. No one has a corner on the Truth.

  171. Max: The key is to listen carefully and filter their words through Scripture to see if what they are saying is truth

    What are we really doing when we do this? When we “chew the meat and spit out the bones”? I think we’re thinking through what people are teaching, comparing that to our understanding of scripture, and coming to a conclusion regarding whether or not what they are saying is in line with our understanding of scripture.

    But is that the same as coming to a conclusion about what the Capital-T Truth is? I don’t think so. For some reason, we think so often in these categories of Truth and Error when what we are actually doing in our thinking is something that is, I believe, far below these two categories.

    I think there are relatively few doctrines that Christians can actually agree on as Capital-T Truth. I’m talking about those doctrines essential to the gospel. For example, the doctrines summed up in ancient creeds like the Apostles’ or Chalcedonian. And even those creeds have their critics!

    I think Christians can harm ourselves by attaching a Capital-T Truth category to doctrines that are in lower ranks than those that are essential to the gospel.

    This is where the danger comes in of conflating something like whether or not women can teach in church with Capital-T Truth. Christians simply have different opinions on this topic. But evangelical Christians, in my experience, RARELY or NEVER explore topics like these by reading a range of opinions. Instead, they let the demagogues think for them. And then they defend these demagogues as God’s anointed messengers.

    I think we Christians, especially evangelicals, would do ourselves a tremendous service by attaching Capital-T Truth claims to only those doctrines essential for the gospel.

  172. Paul K: What are we really doing when we do this? When we “chew the meat and spit out the bones”?

    All I can say is when somebody tells you to “chew the meat and spit out the bones”, first make sure they’re not trying to unload a bag of dry bones on you.

  173. Paul K: I think we Christians, especially evangelicals, would do ourselves a tremendous service by attaching Capital-T Truth claims to only those doctrines essential for the gospel.

    Eagle’s getting to the point where Evangelicalism is a Lost Cause, and with all these examples exposed here and at other watchblogs, I’m coming to agree with him.

    Stick a fork in it; it’s done.

  174. elastigirl:
    ishy,

    i want to know what law of physics keeps the sea-water from running off the earth-plate.

    “And then a MIRACLE Happens!”, just like with inconsistencies and absurdities in the Ken Ham crowd.

    “Yes, God can make a tree into a cow. But has He ever done so? Bring evidence, or this is all idle speculation.”
    — some Medieval Theologian weighing in on some Hot Theological Question

  175. Max: Many American “Christians” have a spirit of rebellion on them. They wear “Don’t tell me what to do!” on their shirt sleeves rather than masks.

    You’re sounding too theological, Max.
    “Spirit of rebellion” better described as acting like a toddler who’s never heard the word “no” before: “NO I WON’T! AND YOU! CAN’T! MAKE! ME! NYAAAH!”

    There are a LOT of arrested-development toddlers out there inhabiting adult bodies.

  176. ishy: The New Calvinists are so insular that they can’t write outside of their box. And that doesn’t market well. But I don’t think they are capable of moving out of the box.

    Because “the box” is there entire Universe.
    There can be nothing outside the box.

    (Reminds me of cult leader Cyrus “Koresh” Teed some 120+ years ago with his Cult of Koreshinaity: “The World is Hollow and We Live on the Inside”. If we live on the inside, what is on the outside? Answer: Nothing. The Inside is All That Exists. The Inside is all that CAN exist.)

  177. Max: lay the primary fault in the demise of SBC at the feet of local church leaders who did not inform and prepare their congregations to make a stand against New Calvinism.

    Well, I mean, it’s not like the New Cals have been honest about it. Patterson and friends should have known better, but the New Cals have been going on and on about how everybody should get along and there’s enough room for all of us, while teaching their pastors how to take over churches through surprise and force. But they should know by now, and they STILL aren’t trying too hard. Honestly, I can’t even figure out why most traditional Baptists even stay in the SBC at this point.

  178. Headless Unicorn Guy: If we live on the inside, what is on the outside? Answer: Nothing. The Inside is All That Exists. The Inside is all that CAN exist.

    Sounds like something from Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. I remember a radio dialogue going something like this:
    –“You mean, America only has one shopping mall now?”
    –“My friend, America IS one giant shopping mall! There is nothing outside. Only parking.”

    Apologies, Dee, for getting off-topic with HUG. I have been glued to the Beth Moore saga, and thanks for covering it.

  179. ishy,

    My friends still in the SBC do not believe at all that their churches are at risk. My closest friends all go to one Baptist church that is maybe 10 miles from NAMB and is fairly large and settled. They are also free will and very missions focused. Their pastor is about to retire. I warned them about hypercalvinism, and they insist “Our church won’t let that happen”, but they don’t really have an associate pastor to step into a lead role. It will be devestating, but I believe that if they continue to deny that it’s possible, then it’s very probable they will be taken over, because they refuse to prepare for it.

    I even know someone whose church was already taken over, and she tells me that they can’t really believe what I’ve shown her they do believe. She can’t stand the pastor, thinks he’s a jerk, but fervently believes he’s not going to follow through with all his covenant and discipline talk and it will all just go back to the way it was.

  180. ishy: the New Cals have been going on and on about how everybody should get along and there’s enough room for all of us

    I fault Frank Page for this. Before his fall from grace, in his capacity as CEO of SBC’s Executive Committee, Page told Southern Baptists for the good of the denomination to agree to disagree with the New Calvinists, get along to go along, and make room under the big SBC tent for their theology. An anti-Calvinist and staunch defender of SBC’s traditional non-Calvinist belief and practice – even writing a book “Trouble With the Tulip” – Dr. Page surrendered the battle to Mohler and the rest is history.

  181. Paul K,

    The Berean Christians searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul was teaching was true. Paul!

    If we search the Scriptures through a grid of theological preference, we could miss truth. But if we allow the Holy Spirit to teach us, truth will surface. The Bereans were declared more noble than the rest because they did that … as every believer should.

  182. Paul K: I think we Christians, especially evangelicals, would do ourselves a tremendous service by attaching Capital-T Truth claims to only those doctrines essential for the gospel.

    Is God’s plan of salvation an essential doctrine? Which plan of salvation do we attach a Capital-T Truth to … “whosoever will may come” or “predestined elect”?

  183. NC Now: Nope. The sea dragons at the edge would scare the cats enough to keep them back. You know. The sea dragons that are shown on all the accurate world maps.

    Some cats might consider sea dragons an appropriate challenge. 🙂

  184. Max: Proof, yet again, that the Japanese are more intelligent than Americans. Additionally, in their culture, they take better care of each other than we do in the good ‘ole USA.

    By coincidence, I noticed an article today about certain Japanese schools that require all students to have straight black hair. The rule is supposed to deter students from dyeing or their hair or changing its texture. If a student is born with naturally curly brown hair, it must be dyed black and straightened. As one sub-heading puts it, “Our School has a no-dye policy, so you must dye your hair.”

    To drag this back to the topic… every group has flaws. A wish for unity and ground rules can turn into mindless loyalty and absurd standards if people do not constantly analyze, discuss, and decide when and how to change. The SBC needs to encourage discussion without supplying the answer to every question.

    https://soranews24.com/2017/10/28/naturally-brown-haired-osaka-student-sues-government-for-forcing-her-to-dye-her-hair-black/

  185. Ted: –“My friend, America IS one giant shopping mall! There is nothing outside. Only parking.”

    As true as the associative property of addition.

  186. Max–so have I. But for those that think Beth Moore just teaches old time SBC teachings, not new Calvy, and is perfectly kosher being sold at Lifeway, there is a problem. She doesn’t. She comes pretty close at times to word of faith. Of course my local biggest SBC church actually teaches much more in line with Paula White than with the SBC.

    Go figure. But the key is to run everything by the Scripture.

  187. Turn it up?

    hmmm…

    Since U Been Gone?

    You had your chance SBC, and U blew it…

    Now I can breath…

    (4 the very first time)

    I’m soooooo movin on…

    YEAH, YEAH

    (grin

    Sòpy

    Inter mission,

    Turn It Up: Kelly Clarkson, Meghan Trainor, John Oliver & More Sing “Since U Been Gone”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1PG5xV4sKI

  188. Max: But if we allow the Holy Spirit to teach us, truth will surface.

    How DOES the Holy Spirit teach us? Explain the process to me. Explain HOW he teaches us. Sincerely, I have no idea what this means since the Holy Spirit is invisible and silent. This is not a challenge – I sincerely don’t know how one would explain this process.

    In my experience I have learned about God through reading and pondering scripture in the context of a community of people who do the same as well as drawing from scholars and teachers outside my local community. I switched from a young earth creationist to a theistic evolutionist through this process as well as from a Third-Wave charismatic to a cessationist. I consider I truly could be wrong on both stances and continue to ponder these things (probably not wrong on evolution though 😉 )

  189. Max: Is God’s plan of salvation an essential doctrine?

    Recently Leighton Flowers of Soteriology 101 brought up this topic. He’s a free-will “provisionist” – in other words he believes God’s gift in Christ provides for all who put their faith in Christ.

    Even though he is adamantly against Calvinism as a system that provides explanatory power for the scriptures, he views Calvinists as his brother and sisters in the faith. Why? Because they do not worship a different God. Both provisionists and Calvinists worship a God who is loving, kind, slow to anger, abounding in love, etc…

    Flowers can’t understand how Calvinists draw that conclusion about God in light of their soteriology (which is a fantastic observation and one which I share), but he doesn’t try to paint them as believing in a different God or gospel. Very wise in my opinion.

    Some Calvinists I know seem to conflate Calvinist soteriology with the gospel itself. This is an error in my opinion. This is where some maybe veer toward “a different gospel”. I think the Calvinist and Arminian systems (as well as other systems like provisionism) belong in the 3rd-rank doctrinal camp (doctrines important to Christian theology but not essential to the gospel or church practice).

  190. Paul K: How DOES the Holy Spirit teach us? Explain the process to me. Explain HOW he teaches us. Sincerely, I have no idea what this means since the Holy Spirit is invisible and silent. This is not a challenge – I sincerely don’t know how one would explain this process.

    In my experience I have learned about God through reading and pondering scripture in the context of a community of people who do the same as well as drawing from scholars and teachers outside my local community. I switched from a young earth creationist to a theistic evolutionist through this process as well as from a Third-Wave charismatic to a cessationist. I consider I truly could be wrong on both stances and continue to ponder these things

    Paul K,

    Please forgive me if I unintentionally cause you any offence….have you considered the possibility that the process you describe about how you have learned about God might be what, for you, is following the leading of the Holy Spirit? 🙂

  191. researcher,

    “have you considered the possibility that the process you describe about how you have learned about God might be what, for you, is following the leading of the Holy Spirit?”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    well, everyone thinks that about themselves. just like they all think their ‘biblical’ amongst so many varieties is the right one.

    my conclusions are pretty few.

    (1) God, Jesus, Holy Spirit exist in present time and are good, merciful, kind, fair, just, attributes which are as existential as water=h2o thus recognizable to humans.

    (2) treat people the way i want to be treated

    (3) the longer this list and the more certain I am of it is probably a measure of how far off i really am.

    (4) it is right that i want an ice cream maker and have put it on my shopping list

  192. researcher: Please forgive me if I unintentionally cause you any offence….

    Zero offense taken! 😉 I think the process I described IS the leading and anointing of the Holy Spirit – just like you said. It’s difficult because it means possibly coming to conclusions that will distance one from current churches and friends. Not that one’s conclusions are inerrant Truth – but at least they are a product of some attempt at thought.

  193. researcher,

    I should clarify that the article was published in 2017, but some Japanese schools still have crazy rules about hair, underwear, etc.

  194. ishy: they don’t really have an associate pastor to step into a lead role.

    Having an associate pastor is no guarantee.

    After two bad experiences with New Calvinism, my husband and I went back to a former church, a Conservative Baptist, because we trusted leadership and knew it was “safe,” even though my husband was wanting more reformed theology. The senior pastor has just retired, leaving two associate pastors. One we knew and trusted. The other, the former youth pastor, we didn’t know all that well, and he was pursuing the lead position.

    At the very end of the search process, the associate we trusted took an “unlooked for but too good to pass up” opportunity at a different local church. The former youth pastor became the new lead, and the current youth pastor became the new associate. (As Max says, the youth is literally running the show, now.) Within two months, the now-senior pastor preached on “something a lot of you probably aren’t familiar with, called covenant membership.” Husband just rolled his eyes. I told him, “Just wait, this is just the beginning.”

    We lasted seven more months. If it wasn’t for covid, we probably would have been out even sooner.

  195. Wild Honey,

    At least you saw it coming and moved on.

    Succession doesn’t work that way everywhere (as you may well know). In some traditions, when the senior pastor leaves, the congregation forms a search committee that works for more than a year to identify the church’s needs and candidates. During that time, an interim serves as pastor. Associate pastors are not eligible for promotion, and often tender a resignation letter when the new pastor comes in.

    These transitions are hard for congregations. People leave, donations go down. But a long interim process does give the new pastor a chance to make a fresh start instead of being rejected for not being their own predecessor.

    I’ve known a few pastors who retired and stayed in the same area, but worshiped in a different parish, specifically so that their presence would not interfere with the successor’s ministry.

    I’ve also known a couple of exceptionally good-humored retired pastors who took on interim positions as a specialized short-term work.

  196. Charles Scott Shaver:
    bunny,

    Perhaps…but she has always been promoted by Lifeway.

    Charles Scott Shaver: Yes…and obviously quite profitable and currently popular as well.

    BeakerN,

    So no actual examples of her ‘wokeness’, just a further dig about money? You’re not actually making your case here on any evidence. It comes across more as personal dislike. Is that really where you’re going here?
    Yes…and obviously quite profitable and currently popular as well.

  197. ishy,

    “Wokeness” is a currently popular cultural term referring to idiots who think they’re a cut above both the rest of the human race and its history.

    My definition.

  198. Charles Scott Shaver,

    I’m really interested as to why you have such a thing for ‘wokeness’ – there are a couple of English media guys who are the same. It’s origins are in the awareness of injustice, & you’ve been unable to point out to me anything about Beth Moore, in this instance, that seems problematic.

    So with your latest comment you clearly think she’s saying she’s ‘a cut above the rest of the human race & it’s history’ – she has left the SBC over clear issues with racism, sexism, how sexual abuse is dealt with, the idolisation of political figures, because she thinks these are incongruent with Scripture, which , I have to tell you, is a pretty woke book. It is RIGHT to question what history & the human race have been, done, said or valued. Many people are leaving the SBC because their racist roots are not being dealt with – that’s not ‘considering yourself a cut above’, that’s ‘doing the right thing’.
    What’s this really about? Do you have a problem with the others who have left?

  199. Paul K: Some Calvinists I know seem to conflate Calvinist soteriology with the gospel itself. This is an error in my opinion. This is where some maybe veer toward “a different gospel”. I think the Calvinist and Arminian systems (as well as other systems like provisionism) belong in the 3rd-rank doctrinal camp (doctrines important to Christian theology but not essential to the gospel or church practice).

    Paul, this is exactly my observation too. I’ve re-posted hoping that people will read again what you wrote.

  200. BeakerN,

    I have no problem with anybody who leaves or breaks fellowhip with a parachurch organization like the SBC.

    “Wokeness” is an unbiblical religio-political farce IMO.

    Prove me wrong.

  201. Charles Scott Shaver:
    ishy,

    “Wokeness” is a currently popular cultural term referring to idiots who think they’re a cut above both the rest of the human race and its history.

    My definition.

    Best definition of The Woke (all genuflect) I’ve come across”

    “New England Puritans, seven-times-distilled down to expunge any hint of God-talk, yet retaining all the RIGHTeousness and Moral Fury.”

    When Wokeness becomes an end in itself, you will see ALL the traits of Religious Fanatics — sin-sniffing, More-Woke-Than-Thou One-Upmanship, Witch-burning. Fundamentalists who have made a lateral shift from Theology to Wokeness; and transferred their Seven Mountains Mandate By Any Means Necessary. A non-religious Taliban.

  202. Wild Honey: The senior pastor has just retired, leaving two associate pastors.

    Let the Game of Thrones begin.
    Dagger, poison, and Red Weddings.

  203. BeakerN,

    Additionally, you may be the first person I’ve ever encountered to describe the Bible as a “woke book”.

  204. BeakerN,

    What makes you think I’m commenting to “make a case”. Here to dialogue and state opinions.

    Just like you and other commenters.

  205. Paul K: Some Calvinists I know seem to conflate Calvinist soteriology with the gospel itself. This is an error in my opinion. This is where some maybe veer toward “a different gospel”. I think the Calvinist and Arminian systems (as well as other systems like provisionism) belong in the 3rd-rank doctrinal camp (doctrines important to Christian theology but not essential to the gospel or church practice).

    A lot of Calvinists I know use “Gospel” for anything they consider true. But I’ll be honest and say that I don’t think it really has anything to do with theology, but enforcing norms.

    I also have noticed that while many non-Calvinists may consider Calvinists within the definition of “saved”, I don’t know of a single New Calvinist that believes non-Calvinists are “elect”. I know some that don’t even believe that other Calvinist outside of New Calvinism are elect. That’s a pretty big problem to everyone getting along in the SBC.

  206. BeakerN,

    Noticed this morning that Beth Moore has deleted her less-than graceful twitter announcement of her SBC departure.

    Delete is the alternative when one can’t go back and replace the proverbial windows she smashed on her way out.

  207. Daisy: There are web sites out there which explain what CRT is, what its adherents believe, and which critique it. All you have to do is google for it.

    Aw — do I HAVE to Google CRT? I don’t wanna~!!~ Nothing there I want to know or learn!

  208. ishy: I also have noticed that while many non-Calvinists may consider Calvinists within the definition of “saved”, I don’t know of a single New Calvinist that believes non-Calvinists are “elect”. I know some that don’t even believe that other Calvinist outside of New Calvinism are elect. That’s a pretty big problem to everyone getting along in the SBC.

    The New Calvinists are just humoring the millions of non-Calvinist non-elect Southern Baptists so they can get in their pockets to help finance the takeover of their denomination. They really don’t care about them otherwise. The SBC pew ain’t got a clue.

  209. Paul K: he views Calvinists as his brother and sisters in the faith. Why? Because they do not worship a different God

    I’m not convinced of that. The God Calvinism preaches about doesn’t have much to do with Jesus or the Holy Spirit. The God of Scripture ‘is’ Jesus. If you worship the Calvinist God without putting Jesus where He belongs in salvation, it’s tough to see that you have the same faith that 90% of Christendom have. Flowers has fallen for everybody just needs to get along, while his neobrethern take SBC to the cleaners.

    Paul K: Some Calvinists I know seem to conflate Calvinist soteriology with the gospel itself.

    The New Calvinists in my area will tell you that Calvinism = Gospel. To put any theology above the simple Gospel message in Scripture is error.

  210. Max,

    A few years ago, a friend used the phrase “different God” in a way I had not heard. She had learned at her Baptist church that Jews cannot go to heaven because they worship a different God. Jesus is God, and Jews do not accept Jesus as their savior, ergo they worship a different God.

    I asked her where the heck she thought that big honkin chunk of pages at the front of her Bible came from… then out loud 😉 I mentioned the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, David’s line, etc. My words did not change her mind, of course.

    People have lots of bad reasons for believing that a tiny sliver of Christians will have sole possession of heaven. But have you heard this “different God” argument about Judaism?

  211. Friend: “different God” argument about Judaism?

    Christians who hold a “different God” view – that Jews worship a different God – do not know Scripture as they ought. The first Christians were Jews who discovered that Jesus was the God they had been worshiping … who knew Him now as Savior, with no more sacrifices necessary. Not a different God, but Christ in them now, the hope of glory.

  212. Friend: Succession doesn’t work that way everywhere (as you may well know). In some traditions, when the senior pastor leaves, the congregation forms a search committee that works for more than a year to identify the church’s needs and candidates. During that time, an interim serves as pastor. Associate pastors are not eligible for promotion, and often tender a resignation letter when the new pastor comes in.

    These transitions are hard for congregations. People leave, donations go down. But a long interim process does give the new pastor a chance to make a fresh start instead of being rejected for not being their own predecessor.

    Yes… in this situation, the other associate (the one who ended up leaving) served as interim, an outside search firm was hired and worked together with a search team of congregation members, and the entire process took about 10 months.

    Have you heard of an “intentional interim” pastor? An outsider is hired on a temporary basis to help a congregation to reflect on their strengths/challenges/needs and walks with them through the search and hiring process. I’ve not seen it in action, but seems to make sense on the surface.

    I also have a friend who was serving as an associate pastor for an SBC church when the senior pastor moved back to his home state. In both situations, the former senior pastor had been there 10+ years, in both the former senior pastor made no secret of who his “chosen” successor was, and in both there was a lot of contention and confusion during the hiring process. I’m not so sure that having the former senior pastor so involved (even indirectly) in hiring his replacement is necessarily the best path for an individual church.

  213. Wild Honey: Have you heard of an “intentional interim” pastor?

    I haven’t heard that term. In my experience, the search committee works with the congregation to determine needs and also to produce documents about the congregation, for the information of candidates. A local congregation even put together an updated photo directory.

    One interim was a lovable old guy with a belly laugh and shrewd powers of observation. He was kind of like our grandfather, putting up with us “kids” without taking our antics seriously, and then handing us off when the new pastor came in.

  214. I am a graduate of an incredibly well-known Southern Baptist Seminary (one which had been mentioned on this site numerous times), and I have never before heard that YEC is a required belief.

  215. I pray Lynn Collins eventually comes to know the Truth. Here is the rest of her quote, if anyone is interested. “….That’s not how I am inclined. I started studying all different religions and all different beliefs — mysticism, paganism, everything. I got to a place a few years ago where I realised that, to me, they’re all the same thing. Everybody is going to have their own perspective, but to me that’s what it was.”

  216. Allison: I pray Lynn Collins eventually comes to know the Truth.

    As a lifelong Christian, I have gradually come to believe that none of us can know the Truth.

    I also have the audacity to believe that God loves everyone, and knows all of us far better than we know God. Christians have made such a mess of Christianity. I think God stays very busy drying the tears of those who have been assaulted, cheated, abused, and otherwise mistreated in churches, in Christian families, and often in God’s name.

  217. Max: The New Calvinists in my area will tell you that Calvinism = Gospel.

    I fear that this is the case for some new Calvinists. This is not healthy, wise, or informed by Christian history.

    However, I’ve also encountered Calvinists (in churches, books, podcasts, sermons, etc…) who just don’t think this way. They have strong convictions regarding the truth of Calvinism through their study of scripture, but they would not go so far as to say non-Calvinist Christians don’t believe the gospel. A couple of these examples are people I know (pastors even) who I would generally classify as being in the YRR/New Calvinist camp.

    I wonder what happened in the YRR movement that translated to people thinking Calvinism is the gospel?

  218. Paul K: I wonder what happened in the YRR movement that translated to people thinking Calvinism is the gospel?

    Arrogance happened … the arrogance of their leaders (Piper, Mohler, et al.) who firmly believe that Calvinism = the one true Gospel. As Mohler said “Where else are they going to go if they want to know truth?”

  219. Paul K: I’ve also encountered Calvinists (in churches, books, podcasts, sermons, etc…) who just don’t think this way. They have strong convictions regarding the truth of Calvinism through their study of scripture, but they would not go so far as to say non-Calvinist Christians don’t believe the gospel.

    As a Southern Baptist for 70+ years (I’m done with them now), I worshiped alongside a few classical Calvinists. I found them to be civil in their discourse and respectful of other expressions of faith. Unlike the New Calvinists, they didn’t believe they were the sole keepers of truth, come into the world for such a time as this to restore the gospel that the rest of Christendom has lost (which would be 90+% of Christians worldwide who do not accept the tenets of reformed theology). Arrogance in motion, the new reformers are certainly passionate about their movement, but it is a misplaced passion.

  220. Paul K,

    “I wonder what happened in the YRR movement that translated to people thinking Calvinism is the gospel?”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    seems to me that for a number of years now christian peddlers have been using the word ‘gospel’ as an adjective to sell whatever it is their selling.

    gospel-marriage
    gospel-parenting
    gospel-living
    gospel-friendship
    gospel-eating
    gospel-driven
    gospel-readings
    gospel-grace
    gospel-icious

    …seems to me that every instance of “gospel-” as a marketing word has kicked the concept farther and farther away from what “the gospel” really is and really means. it’s meaningless now.

    in comes YRR to save the day, filling the void with their concrete message: The Gospel, The Noun, is back and we have it: Calvinism”

  221. elastigirl: seems to me that for a number of years now christian peddlers have been using the word ‘gospel’ as an adjective to sell whatever it is their selling

    The New Calvinists were on a “Gospel-centered” kick for a while … Gospel-centered this and Gospel-centered that … all the while never preaching the Gospel!

  222. Jarrett:
    I can understand, what you are saying in your post. But, it seems so foreign to the Southern Baptist churches, I have known all my 37 year old life. I’d never heard of elders until the last few years, just deacons. I’ve always seen females teaching Sunday school, even mixed-gender adults and their names were listed alongside the men, some even taught solo. Even, when I joined a rather large Southern Baptist church (I think it is a mega church by definition) we had a woman, who wasn’t a preacher but she was on the ministry team and would lead us in prayer from the pulpit.

    Personally, I have liked Beth Moore, but I have been developing issues with some of her positions lately. Which isn’t unusual I rarely agree with most preachers or teachers, especially the more famous they become. But, I have much more of a problem with these pharisaic “leaders” who seem to be trying to push women to the back, when it is the women who largely built these churches just as they did the New Testament church.

    I agree the SBC must do A LOT more on sexual abuse. Though I will NEVER support Critical Race Theory in the Church, nor anywhere.

    I just want a moderately conservative church. Where you can be Arminian, believe in the scriptures and miracles, worship God, and nothing else is required. I want Baptists to rediscover the historic Baptist position that every man(&woman) is their own priest and theologian. Where you don’t have to believe in strict gender roles or follow the Law, to be a member. In other words be Baptist again.

    The SBC just keeps getting sadder and sadder, but not just the SBC. There is so much abuse enabling and sexism all over the Church nowadays, regardless of denomination. That’s why, although I’ll always be a Christian, I am a total DONE when it comes to the Institutional Church.

    expreacherman.com

  223. ishy: You know, whenever a male pastor is making way too much money, keeping their family in board positions to reinforce their power, and living a lavish lifestyle, there’s always trolls on here and Twitter saying there’s nothing wrong with that.

    But a woman? Oh wait, that’s fair game in Christianland, because women shouldn’t have famous names or statuses in evangelicalism. How dare she? /s

    That’s an excellent point, Ishy. Thank you.

    expreacherman.com

  224. Jarrett: it seems so foreign to the Southern Baptist churches, I have known all my 37 year old life

    Sadly, Jarrett, the “traditional” SBC you have known is on the way out. The New Calvinists now control all SBC entities (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, church planting program, and a growing number of churches by takeover). Strangely, mainline non-Calvinist members have financed the Calvinization of their denomination through Cooperative Program giving and Christmas/Easter offerings. The pew still doesn’t have a clue this is happening … but will soon. I was a member of SBC for 70+ years until New Calvinism and their “another gospel” caused me to leave. The long-standing Baptist doctrines you refer to of “priesthood of the believer” and “soul competency” are being diminished in SBC life thanks to the new generation of New Calvinist pastors … the denomination is no longer Baptist at the top and that will filter down to local churches in the coming years. Indoctrination to reformed theology is already occurring in a subtle way through the Sunday School literature, if you look closely at the teachings.

  225. Allison: I am a graduate of an incredibly well-known Southern Baptist Seminary (one which had been mentioned on this site numerous times), and I have never before heard that YEC is a required belief.

    So when did you graduate? What year?

  226. SoSickOfAbuseEnabling: There is so much abuse enabling and sexism all over the Church nowadays, regardless of denomination.

    I would not question your experience. The situation is pretty discouraging. However (sigh) it’s harder for sexism to flourish when women are also ordained and called to serve in congregations. Likewise some diversity in leadership, starting with men and women, tends to make it harder for abuse to take hold. Churches need open processes, open finances, clear rules.

  227. Charles Scott Shaver: Prove me wrong

    If you posit a claim, you’re the one who gets to evidence it. That’s how adult discourse works.

    ‘Prove me wrong’? You’re not a 12 yr old on Reddit.

  228. As SBC AL Mohler said “Where else are they going to go if they want to know truth?”

    There is strong evidence that Albert Mohler has trapped himself in a man made false religious theological system.

    Until he learns of his error, giving his words wide birth, is a plausible solution.

    There are many churches that have not followed him into error.

  229. SoSickOfAbuseEnabling: I’ll always be a Christian, I am a total DONE when it comes to the Institutional Church

    I resemble that remark. Done with the church (little c), but not done with Jesus. I’ll never be done with Church (big C), but finding it is like looking for a pearl hidden in a field, a needle in a haystack, an endangered species in the forest. While the genuine can be found embedded in the counterfeit in most communities, a gathering of the real-deal Body of Christ is tough to find in the institutional church in America.

  230. Friend: Churches need open processes, open finances, clear rules.

    Take away their umbrella for 501(c)(3) protection and you will see more transparency. According to IRS exemption requirements for 501(c)(3) organizations:

    “The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, and no part of a section 501(c)(3) organization’s net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction.”

    How many wayward ministers/ministries have we addressed on TWW with “a person having substantial influence over the organization … operated for the benefit of private interests”?

    https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/exemption-requirements-501c3-organizations

    Of course, for every bad-boy in the pulpit, there is a great multitude of church leaders who exercise proper fiduciary responsibility, who don’t steal the widow’s mite and put it in their pocket. It would not be good to take away their non-profit status even though many are non-prophet.

  231. Sòpwith: Q. Can any one stand before God justified without the benefit of Christ’s sacrifice?

    It is not for me to judge the state of anyone’s soul, particularly based on church affiliation as Christians tend to do.

    I fully reject the idea that Christians have replaced or displaced Jews. Christians are grafted into the tree (Romans 11).

    This is not my wacky made-up view (although I do have those). It is standard theology in some major traditions, as revised and emphasized in the decades after the Holocaust. The SBC is still trying to convert Jewish people, whereas other traditions have realized that Christians owe great respect to Judaism and its adherents.

  232. Max: Take away their umbrella for 501(c)(3) protection and you will see more transparency.

    Oh, how I wish that would happen with churches. Too many try to have it both ways with tax-free status, and I’m sure that any legal challenge would be greeted as an affront to freedom of worship.

    My own congregation does a fairly good job with transparency. Why, lookie here, our published annual report shows a huge increase in outreach spending! Imagine! But then again, we have just the traditional properties (church building, reception hall, a small school, and graveyard). Nobody has dreamed grander dreams of a bookstore, coffee shop, affiliated shopping mall, conference center, and private police force.

  233. NC Now: One of my favorite Internet Monk articles on the subject.

    https://imonk.blog/2004/04/30/the-pope-needs-a-business-meeting/

    Excellent read, thanks!

    Reminds me of a church meeting I attended as a small kid. Every little while, a man yelled BALDERDASH! and waved a sign painted with the word BALDERDASH! Afterward I asked what that was about. The explanation was that he was a former Methodist who wanted more Methodist hymns in our not-Methodist services. 🙂

  234. Friend: Nobody has dreamed grander dreams of a bookstore, coffee shop, affiliated shopping mall, conference center, and private police force

    … and jets, sports cars, mansions, frequent “sabbaticals” at exotic resorts, etc. (and spa ownership!). Sacrificing for Jesus was never more appealing than in the Christian Industrial Complex!

  235. Max: Take away their umbrella for 501(c)(3) protection and you will see more transparency. According to IRS exemption requirements for 501(c)(3) organizations:

    I’ve long advocated that they retain their exemptions, I consider it well and good, but I also think that they should be required to follow the same transparency rules that non-religious outfits must abide by:
    Where is all that moolah going?

  236. Max: mansions

    Oh, I forgot about the pastor’s house, which was just renovated after 30 years. (No, the family did not breathe a word of complaint.) It’s an OK house now, but still quite a goldfish bowl, what with the members holding meetings and receptions there at every possible moment in the Before Times.

  237. Charles Scott Shaver,

    Yeah, clearly we do, because you puked up a lot of complaints about Beth Moore’s ‘wokeness’, & then couldn’t provide any evidence whatsoever for any of the reasons she had for stepping away from SBC being woke at all. Rather than admit you have no evidence, you just threw down the most adolescent gauntlet I’ve seen in quite some time. And I work with adolescents.
    It’s almost as though there’s a different reason you dislike Beth Moore so much.

  238. BeakerN: wokeness

    Well, I only live in one place, but I have not heard a person of color use the term “woke” for awhile now. On the other hand, I hear and read accusations of wokeness from the SBC and various public figures about every other day. It’s as effective as slinging chum into the water.

  239. Charles Scott Shaver,

    “Sorry, we have different ideas as to what constitutes “adult discourse”.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    Charles, you said, “Wokeness” is an unbiblical religio-political farce IMO.

    Prove me wrong.”

    Christians throw around the word “unbiblical” like 7 yeard-olds with squirt guns.

    as if to say, “Yeah?? Yeah??…..Well,…. you smell!!”
    .
    .
    I expect adults to understand the gravity of saying something is either biblical or unbiblical, and to then justify their claims.

  240. Muff Potter: they should be required to follow the same transparency rules that non-religious outfits must abide by

    Well, there is the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA), but I’m not sure how good their audits are … a lot of big-name ministries claim ECFA compliance. James MacDonald used ECFA for Harvest Bible Chapel but they failed to identify his financial misdeeds … or MacDonald and HBC elders may have mislead ECFA. It’s such a game of cat and mouse in the Christian Industrial Complex.

  241. Friend: but I have not heard a person of color use the term “woke” for awhile now.

    I agree, I think it’s a decent term that’s been hijacked to mean something quite different from its original intention – the ‘highlighting of injustice’, to something more along the lines of ‘the highlighting of things that make me uncomfortable, even if those are good things, that I shouldn’t have a problem with’.

    It reminds me of the ‘Social Justice Warrior’ meme- as though social justice is a bad thing. I know the proponents of those who use it mockingly will say they are just highlighting the excesses, when actually it acts more in the favour of those who want to deny social justice in all sorts of ways, by sweeping the desire for better things for more people up in a big mixed bag of satire & mockery. It doesn’t actually act to curb excesses, it just promotes more injustice.

    I kind of think that’s the aim though. If you can write off something good & right as laughable, it gets you out of having to do it. Shame is a powerful social motivator.

    elastigirl: I expect adults to understand the gravity of saying something is either biblical or unbiblical, and to then justify their claims.

    There’s no way that Moore’s concerns about racism, sexism, & the treatment of abuse victims can be written off as unbiblical, which is why I described the Bible as a woke book. But, if you actually profit from those things somehow, & dislike them being brought to light, especially by a woman, I can see how you might try & stuff it all under an ‘unbiblical’ label so others won’t look too closely.

    I’d be interested to hear people’s reactions to various (male) black Pastors leaving SBC for pretty much the same reasons.

  242. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    I am not happy with your derogatory comments to people who are working through some difficult issues within the church. This is a warning. If you don’t see your comments, assume I deleted them. Be nice, if possible.

  243. Jack: Wow.

    Did you ever notice that “wow” upside down is “mom”. I mean, I’m not saying that it’s aliens but…it’s aliens…

  244. @Jack

    I expect to receive comments from individuals such as yourself. The mockers mock, meanwhile those who adhere to critical thinking have to clean up the mess made by the mockers.

    I have a child who was injured by the chemicals in the vaccinations. Do you take care of my child, or do you mock those of us who have eyes to see and the hands to do the Lord’s Work in taking care of the least of these?

    It’s time to “man up” Jack and do the math. Many of us have and trust the leading of the Holy Spirit rather than the brainwashing and in your case, the great re-set mocking skills of mankind.

    Insult me some more, I am used to this treatment from church/religious people.

  245. Karen: Insult me some more, I am used to this treatment from church/religious people.

    Hi Karen,
    My apologies for mocking you. Seriously. I mean it and the blog owners can remove the comments I made.
    I think what you said triggered me because I know a child that died of diphtheria – a completely preventable disease through vaccination.
    I’m sorry for whatever you have gone through with your own child. My experience has been different.
    My child was vaccinated with no ill affects, myself, my siblings , my wife. All vaccinated. My wife was just vaccinated with the pfizer vaccine – all good so far. I’m on deck for April 1.
    I’m not going to try to convince you on right or wrong but is it possible that god is the guiding hand behind the scientists who do the research?
    I work in transfusion medicine (used to be lab but now regulatory compliance), I worked 3 years in pharmaceutical manufacturing and I know what goes into it.
    No doubt about it, we’ve seen some bad players (looking at you, Vioxx) but every day people rely on lifesaving cancer drugs, pain medication, cold & flu symptom relief. If this was biblical times I would have been dead of infection at age 6.
    The miracles that Jesus performed happen daily for thousands around the world (many get denied, which is another story) through modern medicine.
    And a lot of those folks who research, manufacture and deliver these medications are Christian!
    As well as those that care for the ill (doctors, nurses, lab/xray, pharmacists to name just a few).
    Covid is an rna virus, it is neither good nor bad.
    I’m thankful for those on the front line of health care and those in the supply chain. I feel blessed to get my shot.

  246. Karen: I am used to this treatment from church/religious people

    And as anyone who’s read any post i’ve made, i am neither a church or religious. Full disclosure – I’m currently NFR. No fixed religion.

  247. Jack: Did you ever notice that “wow” upside down is “mom”. I mean, I’m not saying that it’s aliens but…it’s aliens…

    And “”dog” backwards is “god”. I’m not saying that it’s aliens but…

  248. Wasn’t the discussion supposed to be about women in the SBC? Leave it to a bunch of Christianish men to find that too boring yawn.
    Anyway it’s a solid topic that needs discussing and Dee I appreciate your experience and perspective.
    Man I got a lotta cred with this whole topic SBC is in my veins and woven throughout all the seasons of my life from birth onward. I’m with Beth and I was out before it was cool .
    Couple things : I was a missionary with the SBC for many years in Asia and here’s a little secret that is good news. Women, especially single women, in the SBC are filling all kinds of subversive roles in other countries they’d never be allowed to fill in SBC life in the US. They’re killing it over there funded by the good ol boy network. That’s true of American missionary life across the denominational spectrum. All the single ladies are doing jobs men in the Us don’t want cause they got churches *businesses* to run back home of course.
    2. After missy life where I was a co heir and co laborer for the first time in my life we returned home and attended one of those sbc churches that tries to keep that kind of on the downlow , the kind that have coffee shops , which I was hired to run for 3 years. Several women came after me in that role over the next several years. Crazy thing happened when a male was hired to do that job. He was elevated to being on staff with all the accompanying recognition. Bam. He’s bona fide and running a church coffee shop is suddenly downright pastoral.

  249. And to think I used to believe this was a christian website.

    You allow headless unicorn individuals (real men don’t need to abuse constantly) on a regular basis all the while deleting testimonial truth from other born again believers such as myself.

    Jesus said the “days will grow darker” and for what it’s worth, He is right. We now call evil good, and good evil, and the souls leading the way in this debauchery are people who call themselves christians.

    I will not visit this site any longer and am delighted that Jesus has set me free from the hypocrite authors. Alleluia! And Amen!