Brooklyn Bridge
At 8:24 the two nations were very close to war.”
― The Princess Bride
I am writing to alert your attention to an abusive church and its senior pastor, The Brooklyn Tabernacle (TBT) and Jim Cymbala. There is now a published website with meticulous, cited information provided: Brooklyn Tabernacle Forum.
I was very interested in what was going on at The Brooklyn Tabernacle. In my 12 years of blogging, I have received a number of emails from members of The Brookly Tabernacle expressing dismay in how TBT is run, especially stating concerns about financial irregularities. There were also some comments at TWW pointing out concerning stories on the lack of attention to some female attendees which resulted in disturbing outcomes.
However, the information shared was complex and I had a hard time wrapping my head around it. Well, this website takes care of any confusion. The writer claimed that it is a meticulous website with cited information. Was it ever! I am embarrassed to say that I didn’t know about a number of issues dealt with by the writers. I do not know the names of any of the folks involved in the website and will plan to keep their identities secret I learn their names. Every time I received information in the past, the writers were concerned about confidentiality.
This post is only Part 1. I started writing and realized I couldn’t get it all in. So, I started with what jumped out at me. In Part 2, I will discuss the financial irregularities as well as TBT’s close ties to Ravi Zacharias.
The history (or DNA) of TBT: New Apostolic Reformation/Latter Rain link
It is my opinion that anything linked to the Latter Rain/NAR movement is suspect. Wikipedia gives a pretty good overview although I believe some of these folks want to take it to a whole new level.
The Latter Rain Movement, a world filled with Temples and Tabernacles, played a significant role in the historical context of The Brooklyn Tabernacle (TBT), if traced through the vast influence of Clair Hutchins, Jim Cymbala’s father-in-law, co-founder of TBT, then known as Brooklyn Gospel Tabernacle.
The Latter Rain Movement’s influence includes movements such as: Voice of Healing, Manifest Sons of God, Charismatic Renewal, Jesus Freak Movement, the Shepherding Movement, spearheaded by Don Basham, Ern Baxter, Bob Mumford, Derek Prince and Charles Simpson, all of which gave rise to more current heretic movements such as Dominionism and the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). A quick summary on the Latter Rain Movement can be found HERE.
…While the Brooklyn Tabernacle (TBT) has been portrayed as a non-denominational church, they are historically affiliated with the Independent Assemblies of God International (IAOGI),
…The IAOGI is a separate denomination from the larger, well-known Assemblies of God (AOG). A key differentiation between the two is the IAOGI endorsement of the heretical Latter Rain Movement,
The AOG ardently denounced the Latter Rain Movement (LRM) in 1949, for their grave concerns over issues such as the hazardous authoritarian control given to their “men of God” leaders and pastors. No background checks were required of their leaders, nor was any adequate doctrinal understanding. Contrary to the AOG, the IAOGI fully embraced the LRM.
The author points to the development of the Full Gospel Business Men’s Fellowship which attracted a virtual Who’s Who of evangelical *influencers.* (Great word pick, TBTF!)
Jim Bakker, William Branham (Latter Rain Movement “prophet”), Bill Bright, Morris Cerullo, Jack Coe, Chuck Colson, Kenneth Copeland, Andraé Crouch, David DuPlessis, Dale Evans, Jeff Fenholt, Billy Graham, Kenneth Hagin, Tommy Hicks, Rex Hubbard, Clair Hutchins, Kathryn Kuhlman, Dan Malachuk, President Richard Nixon, David Nunn, John Osteen, Derek Prince, William Standish Reed, Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson, Charles Simpson, W. Clement Stone, Jimmy Swaggart, David Wilkerson, Ralph Wilkerson and many more.
TBT is even tied to the Billy Graham Evangelistic Associations, Samaritan’s Purse, and The Cove (a beautiful center in NC featuring well-known speakers.)
The choir appeared at a couple of Crusades in the 90s.
Jim is also a regularly invited speaker at The Billy Graham Training Center at The Cove, with the invitation coming from Billy’s grandson, Will, the Executive Director, who, in turn, preached at TBT. Cymbala spoke at the October 2018 Samaritan’s Purse Medical Missions Conference, where Franklin Graham referred to Jim as one of his heroes.
Jim Cymbala, Paige Patterson, and the SBC link
Although some of the associations with the Christian and Missionary Alliance, AOG, Teen Challenge, etc. were not surprising to me. However, TBT’s strong links to the SBC are a puzzle. TBT is heavily charismatic, has ties to the Latter Rain Movement, and ties to the New Apostolic Reformation. Historically this doesn’t seem to make sense given the SBC history and polity. Yet the SBC leaders appear to love Jim Cymbala. Why is that?
Even though the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) canceled their Annual Meeting in Orlando, #SBC2020, which was originally scheduled to take place in June 2020, it is important to note that Jim Cymbala was to be a featured speaker at the SBC Pastors’ Conference leading up to the Annual Meeting event.
Go to the above link to find more information regarding the following.
If you go to the above linked page, I think you might be surprised to see the number of SBC related events in which Cymbala was a featured guest.
Paige Patterson (he’s everywhere!)and the curious case of the now-defunct Recovery Network link
This gets even more bizarre. Remember, Patterson is the unofficial head (IMO) of the Conservative Baptist Network. As such, his doctrinal position should be at the opposite end of the spectrum from that of TBT and related enterprises. Yet after viewing the above connections with the SBC, this should not come as a surprise although I think it is a little tacky the PP had the students sign up for the TRN app.
A quick scan at the typical speaker for Chapel during the Fall of 2017 includes pastors, seminary professors, and the like. The addition to that list of Steven Vornea, CEO and Entrepreneur, is puzzling, especially noting his presentation is the only one without any scripture references.
…Steven’s speech at SWBTS, My Story, incorporated some background on his life, plus how he got started in real estate: “the real way to make money in this business, you gotta be your own bank.” A considerable amount of time was spent detailing how he met Jim Cymbala a few years prior, and became involved with The Brooklyn Tabernacle (TBT).
According to Vornea, Cymbala needed help with the “mounds of debt on all his properties.” Vornea’s assessment was that Cymbala and TBT had been “taken by your own bank,” who, at that time, wasAmerica’s Christian Credit Union (ACCU). As such, Vornea “helped him [Cymbala] restructure all his [TBT’s] debt,” while reminding the audience, and as he alluded to on his website bio, it is “all volunteer work.”
From there, Vornea continues: Jim Cymbala “introduced me [Vornea] to so many other pastors and other faith-based organizations.” Among those, Don Wilkerson and Brooklyn Teen Challenge, who were “financially having a hard time,” and needed Steven’s help.
The remainder of Vornea’s speech was dedicated to the presentation of his then-newly formed organization, The Recovery Network (TRN), targeting the family members of those struggling with addictions, when it was revealed SWBTS then-President Paige Patterson was on the TRN Advisory Board. Vornea then implored the SWBTS student Chapel audience to register for the TRN app.
About 3 years after the SWBTS promotional opportunities for The Recovery Network undergirded and endorsed by then-President Paige Patterson, a current check of the TRN website indicates it is now defunct.
And then there is the case of MinistrySafe and TBT. The NYT which claimed they represent the organization, not victims link (scroll down halfway)
Wouldn’t you know it? besides Paige Patterson, Ministry Safe shows up to protect TBT from a lawsuit! They claim they protect victims and appeared to get really mad at the NYT. Surprised? Not on your life.
According to their website, where The Brooklyn Tabernacle is listed as a Ministry Partner, “our mission is to protect children and those who serve them.” Forging a partnership with an organization like Ministry Safe likely reduces liability and insurance costs, all of which affect the financial bottom line at churches.
A huge chunk of what Ministry Safe offers is tools and trainings for organizations, which appears to support their mission. Ministry Safe also can be hired as consultants to provide direction and legal counsel when allegations of abuse surface within an organization.
It is in this area of their expertise which has raised some eyebrows, highlighted in a June 2019 New York Times article, as this would align them with the protection of the organization, not the vulnerable whom they claim to protect. 🙄
Looks like Ministry Safe disagrees which is really confusing to me, not being a lawyer and all. However, I need to put their rebuttal here because well, you know. Ministry Safe Responds to False Statements in New York Times Article Please read their entire article for context. Remember it is written by lawyers…
What we do: In our law firm, we litigate in a very specific context. That context is this: A child has been sexually abused while his or her parents were involved in a cult, and the abuser was in a position of spiritual authority over that child and family.
…Why we do what we do: We are Christ-followers, and saw a great need: The church was being left behind, poorly addressing this known risk, and commonly responding poorly to abuse allegations when these crises arose.
I wrote this article a couple of years ago which may give context to this hoopla. Ministry Safe Video: They Claimed to Be Victim-centric and Would NEVER Sue a Church Because They Don’t Tear Down Churches. The following video from that post appears to indicate that Ministry Safe would never sue a church. Maybe they just sue cults? Sometimes I can’t tell the difference but they must be smarter than me.
However, whatever MinistrySafe does, TBT appears to have hired them for something.
There is far more to discuss and I plan to get to it next time unless another pastor drops a bombshell and has an emergent need for MinistrySafe.
1st
The tie-in is bling. What’s not to like about power, attraction, & $$$. True sign of god’s blessing. The tie that binds, all the “theologies” together.
I’ve been to Jim Cymbala’s church and heard him preach. Until I was weeding out my library a decade ago, I owned a copy of his “Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire.” I found online this quote from the book. It looks as though he has long been in the business of protecting himself.
About 20 years ago, I said something impromptu to the new members standing in a row across the front of the church.
As we received them, the Holy Spirit prompted me to add, “And now, I charge you that if you ever hear another member speak an unkind word of criticism or slander against anyone—myself, an usher, a choir member, or anyone else—that you stop that person in mid-sentence and say, ‘Excuse me—who hurt you? Who ignored you? Who slighted you? Was it Pastor Cymbala? Let’s go to his office right now. He’ll apologize to you, and then we’ll pray together so God can restore peace to this body. But we won’t let you talk critically about people who aren’t present to defend themselves.’” He adds, “I’m serious about this. I want you to help resolve this kind of thing immediately. And know this: If you are ever the one doing the loose talking, we’ll confront you.”
Cymbala added, “To this day, every time we receive new members, I say much the same thing. That’s because I know what most easily destroys churches. It’s not crack cocaine, government oppression, or even lack of funds. Rather, it’s gossip and slander that grieves the Holy Spirit.”
Again, and it really does bear repeating, even if it sounds like a broken 78 from 1941 (In the Mood by Glenn Miller):
Why and how do otherwise intelligent and rational adults get suckered in to these cultish religious regimes?
They (we) are (were) seeking God.
Come to find out, power/glitter/pay-up regimes are gods not God.
(For us, we keep our own counsel via the Bible, so we move on.)
(Fool us once, but not going to happen twice.)
“gossip and slander” … huh?
“In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” (some attribute to George Orwell)
Reflecting on revolutionary acts right here at TWW. Ever grateful for TWW setting the record straight.
I spent years of my life at that church and am still recovering from the effects of the spiritual abuse experienced there. Ruth Tucker’s observation is correct. “It looks as though he has long been in the business of protecting himself.” I did not see it at the time. He knows how to control the outside narrative and control the attendees’ perspectives too. There are a deluge of painful stories. People have not shared mainly because they believe the lie that the church will be harmed, when in truth, what harms the church is the abuse itself. Another lie believed is to look at all the good the church has done, as though it somehow balances out the abuse. I used to believe this too. I hope those who can speak up are able to do so. They would find there are an abundance of others like them.
Muff-I earnestly thought the ministry was doing good things. It wasn’t until I was in too deep, then I realized otherwise. Met many wonderful people who became friends. By then it was too late and I could not identify what was happening-spiritual abuse. Only when I had some separation could I begin to see.
I was listening to an interview Rebecca Davis did (https://heresthejoy.com/2021/03/heres-the-link-to-that-zoom-interview-with-me-about-patriarchy/), and she observed that people try to avoid pain (not her exact words, just my paraphrase) in response to a question about what was so appealing about Bill Gothard, for example. Someone promises that you follow a specific series of steps and get a guaranteed outcome of “Godly” children or “Biblical” marriage or whatever, and that’s a pretty strong inducement.
Marci Preheim’s observation of her parents also resonated with what I saw (still see) in former cult-like churches: “My parents were attracted to the “intellectual” aspect of the Bible teaching in the cult I was raised in. They were deceived into thinking they were smart enough to find the narrow path—as if the Kingdom of God is found that way. They believed they had found the corner on Biblical truth, and were selected as the chosen people to go out and proselytize all those poor ignorant bastards living in hedonism.” (http://www.marcipreheim.com/2018/03/07/the-theology-of-fear/)
Ruth Tucker,
Oh great! It’s all slander and gossip and the Holt Spirit is grieving. The Spirit doesn’t give a hoot about abuse…
They are looking for an easy answer to their problems. True faith is not easy. It takes effort and isn’t cured by a celebrity preacher.
Former Member,
Thank you for this awesome comment.
Lots appear to be searching for experiential markers and/or evidences that “God“ is manifesting in their lives in a tangible way. The gamut can run from the rock show endorphin-boosting experiences to whipping oneself up into a fevered frenzy and crediting emotional experience and feelings to “God“. Special/secret knowledge is supplied to validate these experiences as legitimate and part of the “deep things of God“.
The gathering is an essential part of replicate in the experience, especially because “visions“ and “words“ are dispensed there. The gatherers are often invited to have their own visions and words on an ongoing basis. The experience not only revolves around the people and the space and physical feelings there, but can be customized according to where the feelings – – unless the words and visions – – lead them.
It’s interesting how the visions often contain a significant financial component going to certain people. And how many people are going to be prioritizing accountability, transparency, and oversight in such situations, especially because they’re personally and emotionally invested in continuing to renew their experiences? How much more than this year with a charismatic “leader” helping one lose one’s inhibitions, which of course can also have people normalizing different levels of abuse? (E.g. “Not only is it OK for you to roll on the floor and scream out your most intimate life experiences, but I just had a “vision“ that is what is required of you if you want healing; please step in to this sacred chamber…)
Well, there’s no doubt that such things within the Body of Christ grieve the Holy Spirit. However, some ministers and ministries use this to shame members into silence – preventing them from speaking about what they see and hear which is contrary to Christlikeness by their leaders. While they can control “gossip” within, “gossip” coming at them from outside the church is tougher to handle, so they attempt to deflect criticism by saying it is Satan’s doing.
Robert Morris typified leaders of the Christian Industrial Complex who hate watchblogs by saying “”I have to say this, um, I’m really concerned about how much time people spend on the Internet. I’m extremely concerned about it. Extremely concerned about it. Here’s one thing, just even the blogs that mention Christian leaders, and I’m one of ’em. Praise the Lord, I’ve made Satan’s hit list now, you know. But here’s what blows me away. You wouldn’t listen to gossip, but you’ll read it.”
Morris and others who stray from the straight and narrow should know that not every rock thrown their way is gossip … a lot of it is truth about them they need to deal with. They are not immune from correction, rebuke and the blogosphere.
The SBC has certainly been coming up with a LOT of strange bed-fellows lately, haven’t they? My thinking is that they are desperately trying to zero in on the “next big thing” for churches. The problem is that they don’t realize they once shared a part of the greatest ‘big thing’ in the whole world: The simple and powerful message of The Gospel!
It’s time they got back to the basics!
In their endless efforts to seek to re-invent themselves, they are becoming a troubling chameleon of doctrines and teachings in order to remain relevant and on the cutting edge. In reality, however, they are only becoming more and more irrelevant and alienating, especially to those who hold to traditional Southern Baptist beliefs!
As a lifelong Southern Baptist, I am absolutely perplexed and troubled by many of the bone-headed decisions that continue to be made within the denomination today.
I won’t ever have to worry about leaving the SBC–because they left ME a L-O-N-G time ago!
Well, the problem starts with interrupting mid-sentence, because that stops the person from talking. The rest of this diatribe also stops the person from talking, and twists their observation into a he-said-she-said comment. Which would, uh, not lead to a prompt apology from the Great Man.
Had I been the person interrupted, I probably would have apologized for gossiping and scuttled away. Somehow I think that’s the intention. Negative comments could never be true, doncha know. They are all gossip and slander.
Ministry Safe aka Ministry Harm. 🙁
Friend,
The purpose of this diatribe is “fear” in order to keep people quiet. It causes people to just stuff their concerns which is very unhealthy to everyone involved.
Only about the convenience of His Speshul Pets with their boots on the necks of His people.
“TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!”
Weren’t the Gnostics (Greek for “Those Who KNOW Things”) really into Speshul Sekrit Knowledge that only THEY possessed?
How about Pole Dancing, Temple Prostitution, and Child Sacrifice?
There were accusations made before. I say this with a heavy heart.
I am concerned about things I have seen at BT. Especially in light of what has come out about Ravi Zacharias and that leaders in the organization knew of his hidden life going back to 2008 and possibly before.
A few years ago there were allegations of sexual abuse made about Jim Cymbala. This was from a person who is now a grown man, but at the time was a child. This would have been back in the 70s. This person sent faxes to just about every fax number he could find that went to the offices. I was able to read one of those faxes. Subsequently, they removed our fax numbers except for a single fax line so that this information wouldn’t spread any further.
Even though he would have been young, he knew details and remembered a great deal about his abuse.
Staff was told that that he was crazy. From what I have been told there was an internal investigation that was done and that Jim was questioned. And that they dropped their internal investigation and instead continued saying that he was crazy and they literally laughed at him.
In another resemblance to Ravi Zacharias, Jim Cymbala would take extended trips alone to Argentina many times. That is concerning.
I have read others speaking about similar issues on a previous blog. I don’t know for sure if all of those allegations are true, but Ravi Zacharias has shown that where there is smoke, there may be fire.
I have also posted this here: https://www.brooklyntabforum.com/forums/topic/there-were-accusations-made-before/
They’d probably try it if it could turn a buck! (Well–maybe NOT dancing…most Baptists are pretty staunchly opposed to THAT!) 🙂
Thank you for sharing, and glad you were able to get out.
Ed Stetzer, former chief pollster for the SBC who’s shared the platform at many of these conferences with Cymbala, is now “pastoring” a church in NYC too?
http://www.cbcnyc.org/
“Calvary Baptist Church, March 14 Communion Sunday at the Ziegfeld Theater, Live In-Person Worship with Dr. Ed Stetzer”
http://www.cbcnyc.org/leadership/dr-ed-stetzer-
“Dr. Ed Stetzer
Interim Teaching Pastor
“Dr. Stetzer has planted, revitalized, and pastored churches, trained pastors and church planters on six continents”
Ruth Tucker,
Ruth, thank you for pointing this out. I happened to watch a recent devotional “Who is Stirring the Pot?” by Jim Cymbala posted on February 26 on the church website. It was about 8 minutes long and he used the word “slander” 13 times. Coincidentally, or not, this was right after word started to spread about the Brooklyn Tabernacle Forum.
(Link to devotional video: https://media.brooklyntabernacle.org/devo_media.html)
ministryworker,
This is devastating. What you’re saying is that the leadership never completed the internal investigation, and certainly didn’t allow for any kind of independent investigation, right? How did the pastoral staff and Board of Directors endorse this blatant breach of ethics? And now the church is constructing a new space for the Childrens Ministry, located in a basement below ground?
What does Ministry Safe have to say about their Partner, who could not even facilitate or complete a legitimate, independent investigation into credible allegations of sexual abuse? Did their prevention tools not cover this type of situation?
ministryworker,
My last post was in reply to ministryworker’s post.
I hope people from BT and beyond are reading this. Everyone who has seen something or has evidence of any kind needs to start talking. If the allegations are true, who is protecting future targets of this horrendous abuse? What if there are other abusers who have also gotten a free pass? How deep does this go?
I would love to know what people mean when they claim to be in “spiritual authority” over someone.
Re Full Gospel Business Men’s Fellowship, back around 1970-71 I helped out at Teen Challenge in SoCal. I worked with Andrae Crouch, David Wilderson, Kathryn Kuhlman, etc. At that time Wilkerson was about to be tossed out of the AOG denomination because he refused to promote the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It broke his heart–he refused to let the Holy Spirit be a source of division in churches. I heard/watchd “Brother Andrae” compose “The Blood Will Never Lose Its Power.” At that time I was seeing lives changed for the better and a deep spirit of brokeness. I also saw Wilkerson struggling to keep celebrity groupies from hanging around as Pat Boone made the movie “The Cross and the Switchblade.” All of these individuals tried to do the right thing, and yet much of it ultimately became corrupted. Heartbreaking.
Ministry Safe apparently attempts to minimizes or mitigate insurance liability for 501c3 church clients, their operational risk, and possible cost exposure as well.
Good answer.
I think the pop-group Eurythmics put it well back in 1983:
Sweet dreams are made of this
Who am I to disagree?
I travel the world and the seven seas
Everybody’s looking for something
Some of them want to use you
Some of them want to get used by you
Some of them want to abuse you
Some of them want to be abused
I got my first magic plague potion yesterday and have been feeling a bit out of sorts today, so I haven’t got much energy other than to say that I am really surprised by Patterson’s involvement with BT. He was so anti-charismatic.
And in other news, Beth Moore has left the SBC and taken her books with her elsewhere. Good for her!
She’d had enough I imagine.
Hope you feel better soon!
ministryworker, all of what is said here I can validate. This man Jim Cymbala (I wouldn’t even call him Pastor) is a fraud, a liar, a deceiver and a WOLF.
Good for you! Hope the side effects go away soon.
Paul K,
me too.
Beth Moore has left the SBC and will no longer allow Lifewsay to publish her material.
https://religionnews.com/2021/03/09/bible-teacher-beth-moore-ends-partnership-with-lifeway-i-am-no-longer-a-southern-baptist/
Paul K,
Operative word being “claim.”
Known more than one person, on both sides of the pulpit, who forget that the relationship of congregant to pastor is purely voluntary.
I resemble that remark.
OldTimer,
Wow, I remember all of those names, and probably saw all but Pat Boone in person… I have to agree that they did seem allot for genuine compared to most of the clowns we are dealing with….. or were we just naive ?..
Blah, blah, blah. The closest to perfection one gets on earth is on their resume. Stetzer was propelled to stardom through a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a bag of gimmicks. He’s a master at working the Christian Industrial Complex. I wonder if he is still driving the VW beetle that James MacDonald gifted to him?
She survived SBC’s good ole boy network much longer than I thought she would. Moore is an excellent teacher/preacher, who was not allowed to break through SBC’s glass ceiling dominated by men with much lesser spiritual ability. Lifeway made a fortune off of her – I’m sure they are sad to see her leave. I wish her well now that the oppression has been lifted off of her – she no longer has to walk SBC’s authoritarian line where weak men play games with souls.
David Wilkerson was the real deal.
It means I’m special, you’re not.
Max,
Maybe some had “real deal” moments or “seasons” or with SOME of their materials.
And then there’s the story of God speaking through a donkey.
A nod to Francis Schaeffer here. Etc.
Am I the only one who thinks that sounds a lot like “PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT!”?
Got mine last Sunday. Some minor soreness like mild muscle cramps, but that was all.
I got jabbed yesterday with the Johnson & Johnson potion.
No reaction whatsoever.
Good for her!
I got mine in Phase 1a as a health care worker. The first shot left me with a sore arm which lasted more than a week. The second shot left me with fatigue and some unpleasant digestive symptoms, both of which lasted off and on for 2-3 days. On the other hand, the sore arm lasted for only a day or two the second time.
I have a friend that also got J&J yesterday, and she said last night that she felt terrible. I got the first shot of Moderna. My arm was really sore yesterday, but isn’t so bad now. But I was very tired yesterday and felt a bit achy. I went to bed at 7 because I was just done last night. But now I’m awake much too early…
It’s fascinating to me that everybody reacts differently.
This is how he always responds to silence people. He uses his bully pulpit to continue to cover up his sins. He is a predator.
Max, I would disagree about Moore being a good Bible teacher. If you listen slowly to her tapes and videos, you will find she no longer references the Scripture all that much. Most of it is her “private revelation” of “God told me this” and “God told me that.”
My hinkey bells went off with her back in the 1990’s and that has not changed. She is pretty much off the far deep end now along with all the other members of the Christian industrial complex.
Not every whim we have is the Holy Spirit speaking. She has become, in my never humble opinion, a nutcase.
How many of the “trained leaders” show up on the Houston Chronicle’s lists?
How many of the churches use independent investigations for improprieties?
Same old, same old.
“If your Christianity doesn’t work at home, it doesn’t work. Don’t export it.” – Howard Hendricks, Dallas Theological Seminary
The Bible is full of stories of “backsliders” who had real deal seasons of faithfulness and then turned from God to pursue their own desire. Every Christian needs to guard his heart from doing the same.
I’m the boss of you!
Praise the Lord! The cavalry is on the way, but don’t stop shooting yet. You won’t join the immune herd until a couple weeks from now. Wear your mask, social distance, etc.
Speaking of masks … there’s a lot to masks they haven’t been telling us.
Provides protection against colds and flu, relieves pollen allergies, keeps dust out of your sinuses when mowing … etc. When you think about it, a mask is one of the best kept secrets in healthcare. I’m not throwing mine away when the pandemic passes.
I get my second Moderna dose tomorrow. No side-effects from the first one; praying for the same with the second jab.
————————————————
Well that would explain what is written at the top of Stetzer’s Twitter account:
“Ed Stetzer
@edstetzer
Due to work and family responsibilities, Ed (regrettably) cannot read/reply to msgs/DMs. Connect w/ Ed at the bio. Tweets come from Ed & team. RTs ≠ endorse.”
And here I thought Ed simply did not like to interact with the proletariat!
When it comes to your spiritual life, believe only Me. Never question or debate My teachings. Sit down and shut up. Never ever listen to any other Christian preacher/teacher. Support only My ministry. When I say jump, jump now and jump high. Do what I say, not what I do. Etc.
In the meantime, the authority of Jesus is waning in the American church. He has little influence where mere men rule (e.g., New Calvinism).
Which probably means he can’t pastor the flock, visit the sick, do funerals, preach anything but canned sermons, personal evangelism outside the church, etc. But I bet he finds plenty of time to tweet the dudebros and show up for paid speaking engagements.
i.e. “I AM YOUR LORD AND YOUR GOD! THERE IS NO GOD BUT MEEEEEEEEE!”
So Busy and Weighted down with Important Responsibilities.
Just like the Pigs of Animal Farm.
OK. J&J’s a one-shot. It should start to take effect in 1-2 weeks at about 50-60% protection. Over the next month after that, the effectiveness will slowly rise until it tops out around 80-85% close to two months after the jab.
When I was getting stuck last Sunday, one of the staff at the vaccination center said they were opening up a third major vaxx center at the county fairgrounds for J&J, and they expected J&J to be the dominant vaccine in a couple months because of its logistics advantages. (To simplify logistics, usually a vaxx site will have only one type of vaccine.)
My second Moderna jab’s scheduled for April 4; give two weeks for the booster to take and I should be fully protected by mid-April.
Got mixed feelings on that.
* Been on the receiving end of Weaponized Scripture from those whose brains were replaced by an MP3 playback of Bible verses. No thinking, no personality, only reciting SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE!
* I am also very skeptical about “private revelation”/”GOD Told Me…”. You may remember Mr J at this blog months ago, with his private revelations about COVID being God’s Divine Bioweapon, poured out on us all for the church’s sins. In my church, claiming private revelation (“Mary Channeling”) is also the characteristic way to flake out competely.
Jerome,
I have written about Stetzer’s unbelievable ability to juggle an untold number of jobs. It is my understanding that he planted three church that failed.
This following post may show how he does it all.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/08/09/ed-stetzer-and-the-four-fence-posts-that-define-his-ministry/
Here is what he does according to his website.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/about/about.html
Todd Wilhelm,
See myt above comment. to jerome.
Paul K,
“I would love to know what people mean when they claim to be in “spiritual authority” over someone.”
++++++++++
as i see it, it’s like “the authority” that is inherently given to the Thanksgiving host/hostess (although it’s sillyish big word).
in theory, it’s similar to appreciating and deferring to the hostess at the Thanksgiving table (or any other occasion when you go to someone’s house “for dinner”).
The way I grew up, at least, you wait until the hostess (or host — whoever prepared the meal) picks up her fork before you do so.
you defer to the hostess to call the shots (when things happen and how they happen, how to help with food prep and clean up, when to start clearing the table, when and how to serve beverages & dessert….)
I didn’t have to go scrambling for masks when all of this hit because I already use a variety of them for dust/cleaning purposes. However, I did not trust their efficacy for virus protection as far as grocery shopping and retail. When we did reengage with those, it was delivery and curbside all the way, which has persisted. Threw on one during some initial spring cleaning yesterday, of course.
I put Moore in the 80:20 category of exhorting Bible truth … as compared to 20:80 for SBC Calvinista. She does get out there occasionally on “God told me to tell you” … but has a more palatable teaching style than the NeoCal’s “Calvin told me to tell you.” There’s more real Grace sprinkled in with her delivery than the cheap grace message of the new reformers.
And speaking of Morris, one of the people listed as SBC guest speakers at TBT (David Uth, who is pastor at FBC Orlando) had Morris as a guest speaker a couple of years back. Of course, a couple of days later Morris posted a picture of the entire clan (him, spouse, kids, their spouses, and grandkids) at Walt Disney World. So there’s one more tie.
Of interest to regulars here including Dee should be this: https://julieroys.com/beth-moore-splitting-lifewayno-longer-southern-baptist/
Former Member,
Your quote that leadership did not complete an investigation and didn’t allow for an independent investigation is simply not true. The man in question was not previously known by members of the church who go as far back as the 70’s, leadership investigated, outside police authorities investigated and no evidence was found.
Charles Spurgeon, March 20, 1884 sermon “Speak, Lord!”:
“One may be a child of God, like Eli, and yet so live that God will not speak with Him. And, on the other hand, one may be a child like Samuel—obedient, beautiful in character and watchful to know God’s will, praying, ‘Speak, Lord; for Your servant hears’—and then God will speak to you. It is not to all that He speaks, but He would speak to all if they were ready to learn what He had to say.”
Apparently posting the actual facts of the case is a crime on here because my previous comment was deleted.
Not trying to call you out in any way, but just letting you know the full picture. Leadership did complete and investigation, and there were outside police authorities that also investigated this man’s claims and they found zero conclusive evidence. This specific claim is a rabbit trail…
Jerome,
Yes, God is continually speaking … to those who have ears to hear what He is saying.
linda,
“If you listen slowly to her tapes and videos, you will find she no longer references the Scripture all that much.”
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it seems to me that teaching is finding a variety of ways to explain the significance of the subject matter (what it means, what matters), and the how-to.
restating the data is not teaching.
i’ve found myself so incredibly frustrated with christian environments — the lingo is fraught with statements that have so little meaning. the verses themselves have so little meaning. they may be loaded with truth, but that truth is so abstract as to be utterly inaccessible.
it happens from time to time in my prayer group. one member (who we’ll call esmerelda) seems often irritated and likes to control things…
as i was praying, some verses came to mind that i’ve known since maybe age 12. i always thought i knew what they meant,
…and then at some point in the last 5-10 years, i suddenly realized i had no idea what the practical significance of those verses was.
(back to our prayer meeting)…as i was praying and those verse came to mind as being applicable to what we praying for. I prayed something helpful, referencing those verses, and following it up with, “But God, I’m not entirely sure what they mean, exactly.”
esmerelda chimed in, “Lord, forgive me if i’m out of bounds here, but….It’s Jesus…. It’s Jesus.”
she took the opportunity to teach me what those verses meant: “It’s Jesus….it’s Jesus.”
(“well, duh, OF COURSE it’s about Jesus! Crimany, who do you think I am, anyway? I was BORN into this religion. I’m a religious studies major. I’ve been reading the bible since I was 4. YESSSSS, i *know* these verses are about Jesus. How about pondering a little more deeply, perhaps, about what the practical significance might be. How does this information actually relate to me, you, the person we’re praying for? ‘It’s Jesus’ means absolutely nothing.”)
well, that’s what went through my mind in .32 seconds. thankfully, that’s where it stayed.
so….i guess what i’m getting at is referencing scripture is not all that helpful. what matters is the significance. especially the practical part. the ‘so what?’ part.
elastigirl,
You’re not alone elastigirl, but you’re one of the few who has the courage to speak up and say so.
And yeah, you’re right about esmerelda, best not to engage, it could quickly devolve into something ugly.
Been there, done that, seen it happen…
Howard Smith,
I presume you are a Christian so making a false statement about me should be a matter of concern to you. A *crime* to disagree with me? This blog puts all first time commenters into moderation.I spent 2 1/2 hours speaking. with a victim whose story I will be writing in the near future. I’m sure you picture me as breathlessly waiting for your insightful comments. However, I’m one person and I can’t be in two places at one time. I’m sorry you had to wait for your comment to be approved. On the other hand it taught me a great deal about some of the folks at TBT.
Speaking of not helpful and the need for practical significance… “Esmerelda” was the name my grandmother gave to her imaginary maid. She was always on vacation and never around when you needed her.
So your choice of names gave me a chuckle, thank you!
Wild Honey,
i think i’ll hire “esmerelda the vacationing maid”, too.
There! it’s all her fault, now!
Monster Words?
hmmm…
We won’t eat our words, they don’t taste so good?
No wonder victims of sexual abuse stay away…
Who let the devil in?
https://youtu.be/4TKcz5AqcnQ
Wild Honey,
Esmeralda makes me think of the gypsy girl in Victor Hugo’s 1831 novel (The Hunchback of Notre-Dame).
Kind of heart ,generous, and erotic.
Stuff that when all rolled into one, should not be in the world of polite sensibilities…
Your “PERSECUTION!!!!!!!” has been duly noted.
You can resume polishing your halo.
Sigh….is there no end to these infiltrations ? Abusive pastors? Negligent elders, boards, etc.?
“When the enemy comes in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall raise up a standard against him.” (Isaiah 59:19)
When Lord? When?
Unfortunately there seems to be an almost endless supply. An abusive, scandal-ridden pastor was removed from his church in my town (in this case nothing to do with SBC – it is widespread) and now he is back in the news. After a two-year break he is starting his own church! I guess I should be thankful he waited that long. I don’t know why anyone would follow someone like that, if they knew his history. If he had any shame (I know, I know) he would have quietly left town and retired.
Apparently, failed pastors don’t know what else to do. “Restoration” periods range from 6 months to 2 years before they pop up somewhere else. IMO, pastors who have abused in any way, betrayed the trust of their congregations and forsaken the call of God by their actions should be permanently disqualified from ministry. (and don’t bring David up!)
It sounds kind of like some disease that, once it infects the system, there is no cure and it flares up from time to time. Yes, that’s how I think of these bad actors.
Jacob,
By failed pastors, I’m sure we all mean those who have had serious moral and ethical failings, abusive, etc. I don’t blame at all an honest person who discovers he isn’t cut out for or isn’t happy in the ministry, etc. I think churches and denominations should have programs in place to help pastors avoid burn-out, that sort of thing. My anger is directed at those who abuse their authority and trust, and especially those who have failed in that way, have evidently learned nothing, and think they are entitled to move on and start over in something they shouldn’t be trusted with. I have spent the weekend dealing with my anger about one situation I know about – I should get off my soap box.
Muff Potter,
Instead of ‘should not’, I meant to say: is generally not allowed in the world of polite sensibilities