The Coming Methodist Schism: Plans Are Being Laid for the Inevitable Split

“I wish it need not have happened in my time,” said Frodo.
“So do I,” said Gandalf, “and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring


I bet there are few of you who didn’t call this one. The discussions in the Methodist Church are not different than the discussion that took place in the Lutheran Church and the  Episcopal Church. I believe the results will be similar. A new denomination will be born and everyone will fight over who owns the church buildings and land. I hope I’m wrong.

The Christian Post reported Conservative UMC faction announces creation of ‘Global Methodist Church’ once schism is finalized.

A group of theologically conservative United Methodists has announced the creation of a new denomination once the United Methodist Church officially separates due to its long-standing debate over homosexuality.

Actually, I think there is more involved here, including how to interpret Scripture, etc. I am a great believer in freedom of conscience. I believe that humans have the right to believe and worship in freedom. As such, I am an opponent of cancel culture. I do wish humans treated each other with kindness and respect but I believe a person has the right to be a dolt. I also believe in freedom of association as a means to bring peace to a situation. Therefore, when one group of people can no longer, in good conscience, be a member of the same club, church, etc., then they should split and wish each other well.

I look forward to a lively debate on this matter.

The Global Methodist Church-a new denomination

The Christian Post reported:

The Wesleyan Covenant Association and the 17-member Transitional Leadership Council    released a statement on Monday morning announcing the creation of the Global Methodist Church.

According to the statement, the theologically conservative denomination will not be officially launched until the UMC General Conference, scheduled for 2022, passes a separation measure known as the Protocol for Reconciliation and Grace through Separation.

CP also posted that they will allow for female ordination and will have a strong commitment to racial equality.

As part of this preliminary launch, the GMC created a website explaining that the new denomination will allow for female ordination and is committed to racial equality.

“Alternatively, if it becomes apparent that the leading bishops, centrists, and progressives who covenanted to support the Protocol no longer do so, then the council will consider bringing the new church into existence without delay,” explained a frequently-asked-questions section of the site.

Here is a direct link to the website of  Global Methodist Church.

I think I may be a church nerd because I love to read websites of church and parachurch groups. This blog is one way for me to discuss my interests without getting eye rolls from those who are not so inclined. Here is how they describe themselves.

  • Our Mission is to make disciples of Jesus Christ who worship passionately, love extravagantly, and witness boldly.
  • Our Vision is to join God in a journey of bringing new life, reconciliation, and the presence of Christ to all people, and to helping each person to increasingly reflect the character of Christ.
  • We will be a global church that recognizes and deploys the gifts and contributions of each part of the church, working as partners in the gospel with equal voice and leadership.

I believe it is the lens through which Scripture is interpreted which is at the heart of this matter. In other words, they take a more conservative approach, although they will ordain women. The ordination of women is gaining a foothold in some conservative denominations but that is for another time.

faithful Methodists have been praying and working to discern God’s will for a new church rooted in Scripture and the historic and life giving teachings of the Christian faith.

Here is why they say they are forming this church.

The Global Methodist Church has not been legally formed and is not operating as a church at this time. When legally formed, the Global Methodist Church will be as outlined on these pages. We expect the Global Methodist Church will be legally formed and begin to operate as a church when the General Conference of The United Methodist Church adopts the Protocol for Reconciliation and Grace through Separation which anticipates the creation of new Methodist churches. Alternatively, if it becomes apparent that the leading bishops, centrists, and progressives who covenanted to support the Protocol no longer do so, then the council will consider bringing the new church into existence without delay.

There is a tentative timetable for this new group of churches.

It is widely assumed that the delegates to The United Methodist Church’s next General Conference (August 29-September 6, 2022) will approve a plan for the denomination’s amicable separation. Once that plan of separation is approved, the Global Methodist Church’s Transitional Leadership Council will officially launch the new denomination. Alternatively, if it becomes apparent that the leading bishops, centrists, and progressives who covenanted to support the Protocol no longer do so, then the council will consider bringing the new church into existence without delay. For approximately one year, the Global Methodist Church will be a church in transition as it prepares for its convening General Conference. Unfortunately, due to Covid-19 pandemic induced travel and meeting restrictions, it is not possible to provide an exact date for the official beginning of the Global Methodist Church. Our fervent prayer is that it will take shape later this year.

Here is a link to THE TRANSITIONAL BOOK OF DOCTRINES AND DISCIPLINE THE GLOBAL METHODIST CHURCH. This is for those of you who are like me and love to look at some core beliefs, this is well worth the read

I wonder if it will take a year to get this ball rolling? I think it might happen sooner rather than later. May there be peace.

Comments

The Coming Methodist Schism: Plans Are Being Laid for the Inevitable Split — 140 Comments

  1. Just another religious group trying to find their identity; seems to be an outbreak of that while Christ still has His Church within the church. Speaking of “cancel culture”, that is essentially what the SBC New Calvinist movement is all about it; they will achieve it in one generation – to rid the world of the faith of their fathers.

  2. Yeah, well, the churches are going to have to decide whether LGBTQIA people are fully human or if we’re just a special class of truly horrible sinners that have to reform our sexuality to conform to their expectations so we can be fully accepted in their churches.

    And yeah, I’m including me in this, because I’m asexual. There are some (actually, a lot of) people who believe that as a woman, my duty in God’s eyes was to get married to some guy and have children, because that’s what God wants people to do. It didn’t matter what I wanted, God’s will was that I was supposed to get married. I’ve been told that I am wrong because I never married and had children, that I defied God’s will for my life, all because I was and remain Just Not Interested. It took years and years for me to figure this out. So it’s not just a matter of icky sex that some people don’t like and says is against God’s will. It’s not following along on the expected heterosexual path, even if you’re celibate and Just Not Interested.

    It truly amazes me that churches are splitting up over whether LGBTQIA people are deserving of the same rights held by straight people, such as same-sex marriage. I wouldn’t be so annoyed by this, except that this has real-world consequences. I am old enough to remember when the Supreme Court declared anti-miscegenation laws unconstitutional in Loving v. Virginia (1967). And yeah, there were plenty of preachers who taught from the pulpit that “race mixing” was bad, and their attendees heard and ingested that message. You can go read Loving and see how the judge who sentenced the Lovings to 25 years exile (!) from Virginia used his interpretation of Genesis to declare how he thought their marriage was illegal.

    Even today, we do not, in the USA, have a national law that prohibits discrimination in housing and employment against LGBTQIA people. In a lot of places, employers can fire a person because they’re not heterosexual, and landlords can refuse to rent to the not heterosexual. And every.single.time this gets brought up to a city council or to a state, there is a long parade of people from quite a number of churches, basically making it abundantly clear that they want the right to discriminate against LGBTQIA people, because their Christianity says so. And the downright hostility expressed by those who call themselves devoutly religious against (particularly, at this point) transgender people just scares the living daylights out of me, because transgender people are being killed way outside their proportion in the USA. This stuff sinks in, it becomes part of the culture, and when some group is declared to be Outside, it’s OK to beat up on them and kill them.

    I’m just going to end by saying that Jesus didn’t tell his followers to be out trying to keep people from housing and jobs. Or to beat up on the q****s and t******s. And splitting up churches because LGBTQIA people are the most heinous sinners around, just for living, well…*shakes head* why bother?

  3. article explaining terms of the separation Protocol (was to be voted on at May 2020 UMC General Conference):

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2020/january/united-methodist-church-umc-plan-protocol-split-plan.html

    JANUARY 3, 2020
    “Various groups were slated to once again propose different plans for a split at the UMC’s general conference in May, but under the new agreement, they will abandon the proposals and put their full support behind the Protocol of Reconciliation & Grace Through Separation, which was announced Friday.”

    “The result of months of negotiation, the new protocol creates a quick, ‘clean break’ for a new, traditionalist denomination that has yet to be created but will receive a $25 million sum at its inception. ‘The assumption for everybody involved in this agreement was that the Wesleyan Covenant Association (WCA) would launch [it]'”

    “In addition, the protocol sets aside $2 million for other new denominations that are created pursuant to its guidelines. Regional bodies of the UMC, known as annual conferences, would remain in the UMC unless they vote (by 57% majority) to join another denomination”

    “The new protocol provides provisions for churches that leave to ‘retain their assets and liabilities’ and for all clergy and lay employees to keep their pensions.”

  4. Question: in the United Methodist Church, does the hierarchy own the individual church properties (like the Catholics own each parish), or the congregations (like the Baptists do)?

    If the former the fights won’t be drawn out; those who want to leave the UMC will simply have to leave and start over (there might be individual battles over legacy donations). If the latter sit back, you might see a hockey game break out.

  5. Mark R,

    They have made an attempt to AVOID the very expensive legal battles the Episcopal Church has undergone when they insisted TEC owned the building if a congregation left even though the congregation paid for the facilities.

    To this point the UMC has agreed that congregation can retain their physical facilities

  6. A local congregations owns its property, but it is “held in trust for the United Methodist Church” (trust clause required to be UMC)

    but according to the separation Protocol, departing churches will retain their assets and liabilities and their clergy and lay employees will keep their pensions.

  7. Jerome: “The new protocol provides provisions for churches that leave to ‘retain their assets and liabilities’ and for all clergy and lay employees to keep their pensions.”

    As an outsider, this to me is really important, that the pension funds be kept intact for their original purpose.
    Other than that?
    I don’t care if they believe that rhesus monkeys eventually turn into angels.

  8. I hope and pray for the churches’ sake that United Methodists are able to work out the separation without resorting to expensive litigation. They should learn lessons from what took place as theologically conservative congregations began leaving the Episcopal Church (TEC).

    Back in 2006 I attended an Episcopal church in Northern Virginia whose members, after a discernment process, overwhelmingly voted to leave TEC for a more orthodox Anglican affiliation. TEC and the Episcopal Diocese of Virginia sued and eventually won the property and a considerable amount of cash following a lengthy and costly court battle. It took a few years before the Anglican congregation bought some property, eventually constructing a new sanctuary. The small Episcopal congregation now occupying the property found it necessary to get creative in order to make ends meet.

    Today the Anglican congregation, along with several others which left TEC, is doing OK. The Episcopal Diocese of Virginia, meanwhile, has been without a diocesan bishop since Shannon Johnston’s abrupt resignation in 2018. The most recent diocesan convention failed to adopt a budget. One can’t help but wonder if the property litigation ruined their finances, another reason for the United Methodists to proceed with great caution.

  9. Mark R,

    I am lay leader at our UMC church. This has been a painful thorn in the UMC side for 40 years. Dee is right that bible interpretation underlies this issue. However, it is actually much deeper than that and goes beyond bible interpretation.

    The UMC is a worldwide connectional denomination, unlike the SBC. And a major contributing factor is that the African, Southeast Asian, Russian and other global Methodist jurisdictions and conferences are generally much more conservative than the USA UMC. Nearly half the UMC exists outside the USA. That is the reason for “global” in the name of the new conservative Methodist denomination. It will probably be dominated by the African Methodists.

    About church facilities and properties Jerome is correct. The local assembly “owns” the facilities but these are held in trust for the UMC. Under normal circumstances a church leaving the denomination must purchase the facilities. There are specific procedures for separation detailed in the Book of Discipline, including a formal worship service of separation. Many churches have peacefully and graciously left the UMC using the discipline protocols.

    But this is an extraordinary time and situation. The desire in most conferences is an amiable formal separation. There is even a desire among many to continue cooperative joint ministries after separation.

    So the proposed plan is to allow churches forming new denominations to retain their properties. There will be a time limit for churches to decide their future denomination.

    The great problem however is this: The division runs through the middle of each local church. The debate will not just divide between churches, but within each local church. Even more distressing, I am seeing the division running through the middle of many families. So this division is and will cause great sadness and even grief as well as anger.

    Now I will say this. I will sound arrogant saying this, and perhaps I am, so I apologize to any I offend. Despite this deeply grievous and troublesome disagreement, I would rather deal with our UMC troubles than those of the SBC regarding female ordination, race, and Calvinism, not to say all the sexual abuse.

    Female elders, deacons, and local pastors are welcomed and generally supported in most Wesleyan denominations including the UMC. In fact women outnumber men in UMC seminaries.

    Race is not a major issue in most UMC churches and conferences, though there can be local church problems. Our bishop, who is beloved by our conference, and our district superintendent are African American.

    The denominational accountability system limits and contains abuse within churches, but sadly does not eliminate it. Our Safe Sanctuary policies and procedures along with the Staff Parish committee system will prevent most abusive situations and people IF fully practiced within the local church. However, I am aware of sexual predator situations that occurred even in highly accountable and alert churches. A clever and determined predator can do much damage before discovery.

    Finally, there are two issues against which all Methodists of all stripes will join hands and resist: gambling and Calvinism.

    I have been too long winded and must stop and apologize for the length of this.

    May God give us wisdom and Grace.

  10. singleman,

    Yeah, probably don’t write off the Episcopalians yet. The country is in a pandemic, and therefore the Episcopal Church is in a quiet phase in many places. Many members are happy enough to worship safely outdoors, or via Zoom. Clergy are not trying to force people into indoor worship while the virus stalks the land. The responsible servants stay in touch by phone, text, email, ministering however the member in need wishes. If you click around, you’ll discover that there’s a process in an Episcopal diocese for the Executive Board to adopt a budget if the diocesan convention does not. Common sense, eh?

    One specific issue with the Episcopal schism you mention was expelling Episcopalians from certain Episcopal parishes (especially the valuable historic properties), and renaming them Anglican without notifying the blessed dead in the churchyards. All of this, every bit of it, should be avoided by the Methodists. Including the sudden promotion of clergy to bishop, immediately after they worked with vigor to secure the building and silver, and complete the schism.

    None of this is victory to savor. It is a failure to reconcile.

  11. Friend,

    My purpose in writing my comment wasn’t to revisit the Anglican/Episcopal debate. I wanted to share an example of what could happen if the United Methodists aren’t careful with handling the property and asset issues. Perhaps I should have made that more clear in my comment. Both sides ended up with serious financial and property consequences, and those consequences are still felt today.

  12. I submitted the following comment earlier this evening….I am re-submitting my comment in case it got lost somewhere in the ether. (I don’t think there was anything in my comment that would have caused it to get hung up in customs?)

    And my apologies if my comment ends up getting posted twice.

    Dee wrote in the OP:

    I do wish humans treated each other with kindness and respect…I also believe in freedom of association as a means to bring peace to a situation. Therefore, when one group of people can no longer, in good conscience, be a member of the same club, church, etc., then they should split and wish each other well.

    That.

    Dee also wrote in the OP: “I wonder if it will take a year to get this ball rolling? I think it might happen sooner rather than later. May there be peace.”

    From what I read in some of the linked articles, after reading through parts of the Global Methodist Website, and after skimming through the THE TRANSITIONAL BOOK OF DOCTRINES AND DISCIPLINE THE GLOBAL METHODIST CHURCH, I am guessing (and hoping and praying) the split will be completed sooner rather than later.

    I agree with you, Dee, “May there be peace.”, but I do not think the split will be amicable.

    While I am hoping and praying the split will be completed sooner rather than later, I am not God and He may have other ways of resolving what seems (from my limited knowledge) to be a contentious and legalistic battle.

    From my own experience:

    There was a Methodist minister (?) (I can’t remember his exact denomination, his exact title, and he may still have been a student) who left the United States to become a reverend in an affirming United Church in Canada.

    After reading Dee’s OP, I am now wondering if this man changed churches because his beliefs were a closer match to the beliefs of his new church (where he became the reverend).

    After arriving at his new church (which was an affirming United Church in Canada), this reverend married a female member of his new church.

    This female member of his new church had previously moved from a Lutheran church where she had been a practicing member of the ordained ministry.

  13. singleman: Both sides ended up with serious financial and property consequences, and those consequences are still felt today.

    Both sides also ended up with tremendous pain, which might be more costly to God’s Kingdom over the long run.

    I have lived through two congregational schisms. In one case, a lot of my dear friends stormed off over differences of belief; I miss them. In the other case, a group made the head pastor’s life a living heck over his preaching style—just a little too learned for their taste. He ended up resigning, and the congregation had a lot of trouble convincing anybody to replace him.

    Both congregations let anger take over, and anger won. Church membership is voluntary. Many people will not want to stay with a group that fights all the time.

  14. For new readers and anyone interested.

    All first-time commenters go into moderation. You should see some windings this post attracts! Also, I am on east Coast time and due to myrather difficult case of psoriatic arthritis, I tend to sleep about 9 hours.

    Last night, in particular, I was helping someone get some information on the post right before this one. This is a big deal but that is all I can say at the moment. More will be coming soon and between Tod, Amy, and me we found the information that was needed.

    Please forgive my slow approval.

    Also, two comment were not allowed. The Chantry bizarros are out in force. I wonder if they’s write another letter to my church, telling them to excommunicate me?

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/08/16/how-a-letter-meant-to-hurt-dee-in-her-church-and-community-gave-her-a-precious-gift-instead/

  15. Didn’t the Methodists ordain women pretty much from their inception? In George Elliot’s novel *Adam Bede,* one of the main characters is a female Methodist preacher. IIRC by the end of the novel, she learns that the church’s governing body will no longer allow women to be ministers. But by that time, she has nabbed the male protagonist, so it’s all good.

  16. researcher,

    When I was a confused teen, a couple of students from Gordon Conwell seminary reached out to our rather dead yet beautiful historical Methodist church in Salem, MA. Between them and listening to Billy Graham on the TV, I began to have an understanding of the faith.

    Also, another story I have never told is important o=to understand my affection for the Methodist church. My husband’s first cousin was the single mom of 4 children and lived in Texas. She was involved in a horrific car crash and was killed along with three children. One child, a young teen survived. he wanted to stay in Texas and the Methodist minister’s family wanted to take him in. This was the church he was attending.He wanted that as well. However, an estranged father with drug convictions came on the scene, demanding for his to live with him.

    In the end, we had to send him to Massachusetts to live with an aunt. But, the church was wonderful.Love the Methodist church! Ive read a bunch on John Wesley as well.

  17. i don’t have any comments, really.

    other than i really want to know where the picture was taken at the top of the post.

    intriguing landscape. my first thought was tibet (highlighting the irony of the very non-tibetan-looking human subject)…. but maybe it’s something as unexotic as wyoming, or idaho…

    anyone have any guesses?

  18. Friend,

    I have a friend whom I’ve written about on this blog. he keeps me up with all things Episcopal. He is progressive in his views. He has shared some statistics with me that seem to indicate that the Episcopal church is experiencing a serious decline in money and adherents. Is it the pandemic? The theology? The polity? Or is it merely what is being experienced by many church denominations? The country is less religious now than it was even 10 years ago.

    I tend to think it is the latter butadmint I might be wrong.

  19. John Smith:
    Mark R,

    I am lay leader at our UMC church.This has been a painful thorn in the UMC side for 40 years.Dee is right that bible interpretation underlies this issue.However, it is actually much deeper than thatand goes beyond bible interpretation.

    The UMC is a worldwide connectional denomination, unlike the SBC. And a major contributing factor is that the African, Southeast Asian, Russian and other global Methodist jurisdictions and conferences are generally much more conservative than the USA UMC. Nearly half the UMC exists outside the USA. That is the reason for “global” in the name of the new conservative Methodist denomination.It will probably be dominated by the African Methodists.

    About church facilities and properties Jerome is correct. The local assembly “owns” the facilities but these are held in trust for the UMC.Under normal circumstances a church leaving the denomination must purchase the facilities.There are specific procedures for separation detailed in the Book of Discipline, including a formal worship service of separation.Many churches have peacefully and graciously left the UMC using the discipline protocols.

    But this is an extraordinary time and situation.The desire in most conferences is an amiable formal separation.There is even a desire among many to continue cooperative joint ministries after separation.

    So the proposed plan is to allow churches forming new denominations to retain their properties.There will be a time limit for churches to decide their future denomination.

    The great problem however is this: The division runs through the middle of each local church. The debate will not just divide between churches, but within each local church. Even more distressing, I am seeing the division running through the middle of many families. So this division is and will cause great sadness and even grief as well as anger.

    Now I will say this. I will sound arrogant saying this, and perhaps I am, so I apologize to any I offend. Despite this deeply grievous and troublesome disagreement, I would rather deal with our UMC troubles than those of the SBC regarding female ordination, race, and Calvinism, not to say all the sexual abuse.

    Female elders, deacons, and local pastors are welcomed and generally supported in most Wesleyan denominations including the UMC. In factwomen outnumber men in UMC seminaries.

    Race is not a major issue in most UMC churches and conferences, though there can be local church problems.Our bishop, who is beloved by our conference, and our district superintendent are African American.

    The denominational accountability system limits and contains abuse within churches, but sadly does not eliminate it. Our Safe Sanctuary policies and procedures along with the Staff Parish committee system will prevent most abusive situations and people IF fully practiced within the local church. However, I am aware of sexual predator situations that occurred even in highly accountable and alert churches.A clever and determined predator can do much damage before discovery.

    Finally, there are two issues against which all Methodists of all stripes will join hands and resist: gambling and Calvinism.

    I have been too long winded and must stop and apologize for the length of this.

    May God give us wisdom and Grace.

    You weren’t long-winded at all. I found your post fascinating and enlightening.

    I have always had a soft spot for Methodism. Frankly, I think the Wesleys were Closet Catholics. If they had lived a few centuries earlier, they might have been Franciscan friars laboring among the poorest of the poor.

    And Charles Wesley wrote some of the greatest hymns in history IMHO.

  20. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    Thank you. for sharing your heart with us. When I first started this blog, I spoke with a lovely woman in Alaska who was also asexual, and like you, living a full and meaningful life.

    You have done so much in your life, especially your protests against Mark Driscoll. It is inspiring to me and lots of others. You come up in my conversations with other advocates. “Who is the amazing red head who protests?”

    I enjoyed the few days we spent together and we hope to get to the area once the restrictions are lifted. We will have to do dinner (remember that Itlain place?) and add Todd to the mix!

  21. Mark R,

    I agree with Seneca. Currently there is an agreement that the local groups own their churches. However, when push come to shove and it involves historical churches that have land and money, things might get difficult. However, I hope everyone stays the course and tries to end well. I’ll try to update as things progress.

  22. dee:
    researcher,

    When I was a confused teen, a couple of students from Gordon Conwell seminary reached out to our rather dead yet beautiful historical Methodist church in Salem, MA. Between them and listening to Billy Graham on the TV, I began to have an understanding of the faith.

    Also, another story I have never told is important o=to understand my affection for the Methodist church. My husband’s first cousin was the single mom of 4 children and lived in Texas. She was involved in a horrific car crash and was killed along with three children. One child, a young teen survived. he wanted to stay in Texas and the Methodist minister’s family wanted to take him in. This was the church he was attending.He wanted that as well.However, an estranged father with drug convictions came on the scene, demanding for his to live with him.

    In the end, we had to send him to Massachusetts to live with an aunt. But, the church was wonderful.Love the Methodist church! Ive read a bunch on John Wesley as well.

    I’m also a Massachusetts native now transplanted to North Carolina. Small world!

  23. dee,

    thanks, dee.

    turns out it’s a woman, and a stone wall.

    (regardless of the context, time and time again, it’s what’s in the background –the stuff we’re not supposed to be paying attention to– that’s the most intriguing bit.)

    anyone done more travelling (physically or virtually) than me who has an educated guess on location? turkey? armenia?

  24. dee,

    Huge generalization alert: mainline denominations do not insist on frequent physical attendance. In the short term, these places might be doing more online worship, and this will probably lead to lower participation. In the long term, the mainlines are indeed in decline, but the high mark for church membership was in the 1950s and early 1960s. (One of many sources: https://news.usc.edu/25835/The-1950s-Powerful-Years-for-Religion/#:~:text=On%20a%20typical%20Sunday%20morning%20in%20the%20period%20from%201955,to%2063.3%20percent%20in%201960. )

    Most people don’t go to church hoping for a big fight. They want to worship, and maybe to find some peace that is missing from their lives. They want to sit with loved ones and pray. They want to see precious friends. They want to serve. They want to rekindle love for a child or spouse who is driving them nuts. They want to forget their crushing debt or life-threatening illness, or hand their cares to God.

    Peaceful worshipers deserve to have a place to go. That place should have the skill of reconciliation, one of the most crucial ideas in Christian Scripture.

  25. John Smith: Finally, there are two issues against which all Methodists of all stripes will join hands and resist: gambling and Calvinism.

    One of my Grandmothers was Methodist, and card games were never allowed in their house (except for UNO!), even w/o betting. We also discovered that the Methodist Daycare our kids went to for years objected, because the older kids learned to play poker (no money involved, just cards), but once the administration found out the game was forbidden. Guess we all have our quirks.

  26. elastigirl: turkey? armenia?

    I think Rockies in NW of U.S., could even be CO, which is pretty flat east of the mountains. And lots of yoga practitioners there.

  27. readingalong: One of my Grandmothers was Methodist, and card games were never allowed in their house (except for UNO!), even w/o betting.We also discovered that the Methodist Daycare our kids went to for years objected, because the older kids learned to play poker (no money involved, just cards), but once the administration found out the game was forbidden. Guess we all have our quirks.

    IIRC the Methodists were also prominent in the Temperance Movement back in the day. I think they no longer incline toward teetotaling, but I’m not sure. The Methodists I know in Real Life don’t seem to have a problem with the occasional Margarita.

  28. dee:
    Jerome,

    Let’s see. When I think of my beautiful Methodist church in Salem, MA which will probably be one of the ones which leave, I wonder. I think you might find this interesting.
    http://www.salemwesley.org/history/

    Fascinating site. Loved the photos. Wish there had been more.

    Yep, I would bet dollars to donuts that this congregation will be among the “leavers.”

    Perhaps we should call the movement “Methxit.” Somehow that doesn’t roll right off the tongue, however. :O

  29. elastigirl: anyone done more travelling (physically or virtually) than me who has an educated guess on location? turkey? armenia?

    I had a look on google lens (? Google image search) and it said Crete, Greece, 2017…. 🙂

  30. John Smith: So the proposed plan is to allow churches forming new denominations to retain their properties. There will be a time limit for churches to decide their future denomination.

    The great problem however is this: The division runs through the middle of each local church. The debate will not just divide between churches, but within each local church. Even more distressing, I am seeing the division running through the middle of many families. So this division is and will cause great sadness and even grief as well as anger.

    Now I will say this. I will sound arrogant saying this, and perhaps I am, so I apologize to any I offend. Despite this deeply grievous and troublesome disagreement, I would rather deal with our UMC troubles than those of the SBC regarding female ordination, race, and Calvinism, not to say all the sexual abuse.

    My last church was UMC and it was over this issue that I left. I was really bothered by some of the atrocious things I heard listening to the global conference.

    But for the most part, it was over this local division in the church. Granted, I’m still pretty sore over all the stuff that I saw in the SBC. This church was split down the middle, as John described. I saw people I knew on both sides say awful things about each other and the issues. They had mostly gotten along until then. The pastor was in favor of the unity plan, which made the other side even more enraged. This went even further to that group deciding that it was evil to allow women to be pastors, even though they had just had a female pastor who retired. I had enough. I thought the UMC would be safer than the SBC, but it didn’t feel very safe. So I no longer go to church…

  31. Interested,

    By Jove, I think you’ve got it! I did a search for “crete yoga 2017” and that image showed up among others. Here’s the caption: “CRETE, GREECE (Feb. 9, 2017) Master-at-Arms 3rd Class Mikaela Davis from the aircraft carrier USS George H.W. Bush (CVN 77) performs a yoga pose during a Morale, Welfare and Recreation (MWR) tour of the Ida mountain. According to Greek mythology, the god Zeus was born inside the mountain. The George H.W. Bush Carrier Strike Group is conducting naval operations in the U.S. 6th Fleet area of operations in support of U.S. national security interests. – Image ID: RAJX52”

  32. Once the UMC can manage to hold a General Conference and approve the separation Protocol (it seems to have widespread support) there will be a window of time for congregations to decide to leave to a new group. Presumably the denomination would support the terms of the Protocol, and not back attempts by disaffected members of local congregations to fight for property.

  33. There is also the matter of United Methodist schools:

    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/01/09/proposed-split-united-methodist-church-over-lgbt-issues-welcomed-methodist-college

    January 2020

    “Methodist college leaders have publicly spoken in a unified voice in calling for more inclusive policies within the church…At their meeting on Jan. 4, 85 NASCUMC college presidents signed a statement endorsing the creation of a U.S. conference of the Methodist church, which is one aspect of the proposed separation protocol.”

    “if a separation is reached, the church that emerges will be smaller, and Methodist-affiliated colleges will likely receive less financial support from the church.”

    “about five Methodist-affiliated institutions may choose to depart the United Methodists and affiliate with the ‘traditionalist Methodist’ denomination after its establishment. ‘While the presidents of those institutions are strongly aligned with us on the NASCUMC statement and position, they understand that some of the characteristics of their own institutions may lead them to be with the new denomination'”

  34. Three progressive schools “Baldwin Wallace University, Randolph College and the University of Mount Union” had cut ties with the UMC in reaction to conservatives winning several votes at the Feb. 2019 General Conference.

    TWW readers may recall that Reformed Baptists met on the campus of Baldwin Wallace University for their 2019 ARBCA General Assembly. Awkward!

  35. RCC fought for, and lost St. Stanislaus in St. Louis. Mo.:

    https://www.stltoday.com/lifestyles/faith-and-values/st-louis-archdiocese-and-st-stanislaus-reach-settlement-that-makes-church-independent/article_c876ca45-4999-5a2b-8b5b-03a7a48ab145.html

    pretty rare situation

    2013
    “The St. Louis Archdiocese said Wednesday that it will end its appeal of a St. Louis Circuit Court decision…Last March, St. Louis Circuit Court Judge Bryan Hettenbach ruled against the archdiocese in a sweeping decision affirming St. Stanislaus’ ownership of its property. The church is at 1413 North 20th Street. Afterward, Archbishop Robert Carlson told reporters at a news conference that he would appeal Hettenbach’s decision ‘all the way to the Supreme Court if necessary’.”

    “The legal battle for St. Stanislaus revolved around a 19th-century agreement with then-Archbishop Peter Kenrick that allowed the parish to govern its own finances. Its bylaws stated that a lay board would control the church’s property and assets while the archbishop would appoint the board and pastor.”

  36. There is “more to the story” than just a split over the LBGTQ+ issue, or at least how some are presenting it today.

    My dad was UMC (just Methodist until it became the UMC) and we spent many years in it. (Geography often dictated our limited church choices.) We enjoyed our time in it, and as our synod in the Lutheran church is moving ever more hard line right we may go back someday. Who knows?

    But the Methodist church is based on connects and sticking to the voted on Book of Discipline. There are jurisdictions and some districts that are defying the rules voted on by the whole church, such as concerning Bishop Oliveto. This would have been a no brainer to kick out any such defiant leaders had it been any other issue. Tender hearts even among the most conservative have prevented that. In the USA, that is.

    But a big deal was made back in 1967 that this was to be an international denomination, and those in Africa, Asia, and South America would have equal voice. Well, most Methodists are not in the USA and they have voted their belief. But many in the USA NOW think brown skinned people are not woke enough and their vote should not count as much. And there have been shenanigans galore regarding visas, etc, to try and suppress their voices.

    In all fairness, it isn’t just the conservatives that want to leave. So do the ultra progressives. But to be absolutely fair, when the international vote favored the conservatives, the progressives should have left. Instead it is they who are basically forcing a split. And forcing the conservatives out.

    And the major reason for the name Global Methodist Church is that is the group that will.not.disenfranchise.dark.skinned.people.

  37. Dee, I’m responding to your comment: “As such, I am an opponent of cancel culture. I do wish humans treated each other with kindness and respect but I believe a person has the right to be a dolt.”

    I’m wondering if there is more to the so-called “cancel culture” than meets the eye. I’ve never watched The Bachelor, for example, but I have listened to the news about host Chris Harrison. Was he racist? That’s a strong term. If so, does the parent company have the right to fire him? These questions relate to what is being called the cancel culture. Back in 1978 when I had first moved into a mostly black neighborhood in Grand Rapids, I was involved in a racist incident, yours truly being the racist. I didn’t think I was doing anything racist (and many people wouldn’t think so today) until a neighbor became very offended. After thinking about her scolding, I wrote her a letter of apology and we developed a friendship that lasted even after we moved out of the neighborhood 28 years later. When teaching at Calvin Seminary, I would often introduce a segment on racism in one of my courses by saying: There’s racism in this class; I know there is. There’s racism in this school; I’m certain of it. That always got the students’ attention. Then I told the story of my neighbor, and said, I know there’s racism in this class because I am here. Back to Harrison, if I knew enough to apologize and learn from an experience way back in 1978, why wouldn’t he have had enough racial understanding to at least have said to the black contestant he was interacting with: How would you have responded? Can you help me out on what I should have said?, etc. He didn’t. Rather he defended himself and talked over her insisting that what he had done was not racist. Whether or not it was, is perhaps beside the point. To her it was offensive, and he should have been sensitive enough to realize that. So, perhaps that deficiency alone is enough for the parent company to cancel him—to let him go, if they do so. Politicians, reporters, celebrities of all kinds need to realize that if they are not kind, as you put it, if they are not sensitive, they may be cancelled by voters or other powers that be. Sure anyone can be a dolt, but maybe not if you want to keep your job. I do not lament that fact. I think people of color have suffered racism for so many generations, that it’s not a bad thing if the tables a turned a little. The same could be said for gender issues.

    I may have failed to understand your reference to this issue, but I would welcome your response.

  38. linda,

    You make intriguing points. The Anglican/Episcopal schism had some similarities and many differences. The Anglican Communion is basically a system of national churches that incorporate each country’s language(s) and some customs, as well as geographical boundaries. Obviously a lot is owed to the mighty old British Empire and its colonialist ways. Most Anglicans live in the Global South, and they have their own mores. However, some of those mores were introduced, along with Christianity itself, by British missionaries during the days of Empire. The idea of traditional Christianity is therefore very hard to pin down.

    There’s also an old custom of not poaching believers across borders. Some parishes and dioceses that left the Episcopal Church allied themselves with Anglican bishops on other continents.

    It seems possible that Methodists in the US will discover that they are being schooled by foreigners, and this might dismay them. But they should dig deep into the history, and try to learn the sources of customs that might look more traditional. More traditional than what?

    There are no right answers, just discussions that might be resolved better if explored fully.

  39. This is completely off topic but what ever happened to Eagle?? I don’t see anymore posts by him

  40. linda: But many in the USA NOW think brown skinned people are not woke enough and their vote should not count as much.

    We’ve seen similar anti-African bigotry among progressive leaders in the Catholic Church. Notably, a few years ago, Germany’s Cardinal Kasper pitched a hissy fit about African Catholic conservatism, noting that the African bishops “should not tell us too much what we have to do.”

    Many of us pew peons found Kasper’s comments richly ironic, considering that the Church is on life support in Germany — while it’s growing and flourishing in Africa.

  41. Ruth Tucer:

    I think people of color have suffered racism for so many generations, that it’s not a bad thing if the tables a turned a little. The same could be said for gender issues.

    Two wrongs are never going to make a right, and certainly aren’t going to heal divides, which should be the objective rather than a head to mount in a trophy case. The potential for abuse for personal agendas by those empowered under such methods only figures to grow under such measures. Who is going to hold the Anthony Moores of the world to account when some appear eager to leverage table turning when it suits them (Thabiti Anyabwile — both reportedly with backgrounds involving Dever, notably — comes to mind)?

    https://thouarttheman.org/2018/04/09/thabiti-anyabwile-tgc-lost-way-racial-relations-suffer-setback/

    Also, as we’ve seen in articles here, the victims of BIPOC predators are often BIPOC people. The predators and autocrats do not need more arrows for the quiver to evade accountability, transparency, and oversight, regardless of past issues. Had that cancel mindset prevailed in 1978, you may well have lost your teaching gig had enough pressure been brought to bear and enough called for justice (sic) by fully eradicating the potential for the mindset to be present in a teaching capacity, no matter the teachable moment it provided or mea culpa offered.

    This may have included an environment where you never got a chance to plead your case, but were disposed of “if anyone may have been offended” etc. Would it have been better for you to have been removed as well as your opinion and chance of confession and further contextualization to help educate those needing it? Higher education is a place where discussion and idea exchanges certainly does not seem robust and priorities in many spaces specifically due to the offense issues. Further Balkanization of world views strictly along such lines seem to be the inevitable result.

    Dee has and will certainly be able to speak for herself, but I took what she said to be along the lines of being wary of full weaponization against those who commits real or perceived offenses of different degrees rather than letting the response fit both the crime / offense, as well as allowing for restoration where appropriate on societal levels rather than affix a scarlet R for example to someone so as to eternally punish them (and those associated with them on any level) going forward.

  42. JDV,

    First of all, I think it’s rare when an individual doesn’t get an opportunity to apologize and learn from a situation. My neighbor (in the 1978) would have been the first person to defend me had a school tried to fire me. (And, BTW, I was fired, and will be publishing on that experience hopefully later this month. So I do know about unjust firings, perhaps much more personally than you do.) A question: Do you object to the cancel culture from the “right” as much as from the “left”? I’m a really old lady, so I have an historical perspective that you may not have. Over the past decades there have been countless calls for boycotts by conservative Christians. One I particularly recall came from Jerry Falwell, Sr. He thought that the kids TV program, Telletubbies, should be boycotted because one of the supposed boys was purple and carried a purse, thus indicating he was gay. I watched that program many early mornings in bed with my 3-year-old granddaughter (each of us with a bowl of ice cream), and it never dawned on neither of us that Tinky Winky was gay. I should no doubt be faulted for the bowls of ice cream, but not for my failure to CANCEL Tinky Winky.

  43. Ruth Tucker,

    I thought the same about Tinky Winky….. all the characters seem to behave in mannerism that would appeal to 2-3 year olds ….. funny, that was targeted audience..

  44. dee: I have a friend whom I’ve written about on this blog. he keeps me up with all things Episcopal. He is progressive in his views. He has shared some statistics with me that seem to indicate that the Episcopal church is experiencing a serious decline in money and adherents. Is it the pandemic? The theology? The polity? Or is it merely what is being experienced by many church denominations? The country is less religious now than it was even 10 years ago.

    I tend to think it is the latter butadmint I might be wrong.

    I think the pandemic is hastening what was already a slow trend towards secularization. Not quite where western Europe is at, but moving away from the higher (reported) church attendance percentages of the 2nd half of the 20th century. Without getting into politics, I’d also note that a lot of people are being put off by the tendency of certain religious groups to believe and promote conspiracy theories. I’m only going to post a link to a relevant article from a British newspaper here, people can disagree with its conclusions, but it’s worth thinking about.

    QAnon has merged with white Christian evangelicals, experts say — and the results could be lethal

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/qanon-march-4-white-christian-evangelicals-b1812490.html

  45. Catholic Gate-Crasher: We’ve seen similar anti-African bigotry among progressive leaders in the Catholic Church. Notably, a few years ago, Germany’s Cardinal Kasper pitched a hissy fit about African Catholic conservatism, noting that the African bishops “should not tell us too much what we have to do.”

    Many of us pew peons found Kasper’s comments richly ironic, considering that the Church is on life support in Germany — while it’s growing and flourishing in Africa.

    Yeah, this is seriously a problem within white progressive/leftist communities. Without naming any politicians, it’s the major reason I found the supporters of one allegedly progressive presidential candidate to be almost completely insufferable. Part of it may have been that Black Americans are more connected to their churches and part of it may be the sheer pigheaded blindness these followers have had towards anyone who is not like them. I’m still finding these people insufferable.

  46. Why do some Old Testament prohibitions remain while others are disregarded? What is the standard?

    Why are communities of faith who interpret the specific statements of scripture on sin in various forms, sometimes generically deemed mean spirited/ judgmental while other are sometimes generically venerated? If we are actually free to worship what is the standard to make this distinction?

    If we can disregard Scripture in the some places (sexuality, gender roles, etc.) does it really have authority in the easy places either (love your neighbor, care for the orphan and the widow)? If so, why?

    If some parts of Scripture “were true then but not now” why is any of it reliable as an authority in our lives? Were those statements errors? Is God fluid in the realm of morality? If so, couldn’t that change again in the future?

  47. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I think the pandemic is hastening what was already a slow trend towards secularization.

    That is probably true. However, some people might be yearning to get back to church. I really miss the place, even as I fully approve of its physical closure during the pandemic. Also, maybe some people from abusive churches will discover that the spell has been broken; perhaps they will look for gentler places instead of opting out.

    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: a lot of people are being put off by the tendency of certain religious groups to believe and promote conspiracy theories.

    “No true Scotsman” is going to be a big problem, in my view. People already have trouble differentiating themselves by proclaiming, “I’m not an abusive Christian.” Apparently we now need to add, “And I believe in the moon landing.”

  48. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    I was clearly trained in fundy training 45 plus years ago to believe “Fundamentalist Christian” conspiracy theories to explain “reality”…. it really feeds one’s ego to have “answer” to all the craziness of life….

    Fast forward a year ago…. I got into a number of discussions with some my classmates that are still “true fundy believers” on Facebook about COVID. The depth that they had bought into the conspiracy theories that COVID was a plot to bring down “45” was breath taking… I could go on and on, but…..l

  49. Could it be that the Lord is moving through the American church to uproot, tear down, and “cancel” what we have built? Lord knows, the organized church – whether it be Methodist or Baptist or other – is so far off track that splits, divisions, schisms were bound to happen. Much of the church is about us not Him; some bulldozing and rebuilding is definitely in order.

    Or, could it be that the Lord has simply left us to ourselves? After enough of that, some of us will surely turn back to Him. At the end of the day, we won’t stand before Him as Methodists or Baptists … religious or evangelical … just souls who either genuinely know Christ or not. On that day, we will be in a balance which will tip one way or the other – it won’t matter how churched we were or what label we worshiped under.

  50. Friend,

    I have had this problem for years… All my scientific training tells me that the laws of physics are true, and the laws of physics tells me the Universe is old, very old. This has NOTHING to do with the conspiracy that “old earth” physics was “thought up” by evil secular humanist to give “enough time” for evolution to work, so we do not have to believe in Young earth creationism.
    I was taught, and continue to get this “argument” from “devoted Biblical Christian” that consider me a “compromised Christian” at best..
    the current COVID crisis, and rise of “Christain Nationalism” is just accelerating this problem…. heaven help us..

  51. Jeffrey Chalmers: Friend,

    I have had this problem for years… All my scientific training tells me that the laws of physics are true, and the laws of physics tells me the Universe is old, very old. This has NOTHING to do with the conspiracy that “old earth” physics was “thought up” by evil secular humanist to give “enough time” for evolution to work, so we do not have to believe in Young earth creationism.
    I was taught, and continue to get this “argument” from “devoted Biblical Christian” that consider me a “compromised Christian” at best..

    I have that frustration too. Young Earth Creationism as an Evangelical/Fundamentalist movement is actually fairly recent but it has been accepted as the only legitimate reading of Genesis by many churches. The only conservative churches I have found science to be accepted were in Catholic or Anglican churches. If you are more or less conservative and support science there are a lot of churches where you won’t feel welcome. The LCMS doubled-down on young earthism, for example. It’s fun (not) being lectured “you don’t know ‘real’ science, you don’t know the Bible” etc.

  52. Jeffrey J Chalmers: I got into a number of discussions with some my classmates that are still “true fundy believers” on Facebook about COVID. The depth that they had bought into the conspiracy theories that COVID was a plot to bring down “45” was breath taking… I could go on and on, but….

    I no longer believe anyone who says they are “certain” on what the Bible says. Because most aren’t really interested in what the Bible says and don’t research it beyond what their pastor tells them, as long as it’s what they want to hear. And I think what we’ve seen with all the crazy conspiracy theorists is a logical extension of that, except that those people just stopped listening just to their pastor.

    They don’t want to find the truth. They want to find validation. People who “because Bible” everything usually haven’t done any research into the issues, particuarly in the original languages. The issues the UMC is dealing with are much more complicated in the Bible than the evangelical church would like to tell you it is, particularly due to bias in the English translations that has only gotten worse in recent translations like the ESV 2016.

    Unfortunately, the conspiracy theorists have just gone way off the deep end in believing anonymous people with no evidence, but they certainly won’t research those beliefs because they might find out things they don’t want to hear. But I think it’s the same thing–they want to be some special group with special knowledge that will “save” them, instead of confronting their fears.

  53. Friend:
    Interested,

    By Jove, I think you’ve got it! I did a search for “crete yoga 2017” and that image showed up.

    @elastigirl
    Pleased to achieve something!! 🙂 Ohhhh, holiday abroad- I cant wait.

  54. Ruth Tucer: Dee, I’m responding to your comment: “As such, I am an opponent of cancel culture. I do wish humans treated each other with kindness and respect but I believe a person has the right to be a dolt.”

    I agree to an extent . . . if the doltiness harms others I draw a line.

  55. Jacob,

    Yup…. I spent some time “digging into” the “latest” thoughts of YEC a number of years ago after ignoring it for 30 years… My jaw was on the floor when I read how these “Young earth Scientist” were trying to “explain away” the implications of radioactive decay… (and I am NOT talking about Carbon 13th, which young earthers always like to pounce on, thinking they “got you”…)
    If YEC were truly consistent with their beliefs, they should not ever get any radiation treatment, since they state that the laws of radioactive decay “ must not be constant”!!! But remember, you should NOT listen to anything I say, since as Ken Ham would say, “ he is already compromised”

  56. Ruth Tucker:

    “(And, BTW, I was fired, and will be publishing on that experience hopefully later this month. So I do know about unjust firings, perhaps much more personally than you do.)”

    A question: Do you object to the cancel culture from the “right” as much as from the “left”? I’m a really old lady, so I have an historical perspective that you may not have. Over the past decades there have been countless calls for boycotts by conservative Christians.

    As far as objections, I repeat: Two wrongs are never going to make a right, and certainly aren’t going to heal divides, which should be the objective rather than a head to mount in a trophy case.

  57. Ruth Tucer: Politicians, reporters, celebrities of all kinds need to realize that if they are not kind, as you put it, if they are not sensitive, they may be cancelled by voters or other powers that be. Sure anyone can be a dolt, but maybe not if you want to keep your job.

    I am speaking on a more personal level. Here is my one example. First…I made the mistake of telling what I believed to be a good friend who I voted for in 2016. The reaction to that was unbelievable and resulted in emails going to friends telling them how bad I was. Second…Another friend who agreed with my choice ghosted me after I didn’t ghost the people who didn’t agree with the second choice. Total ghosting.

    I am speaking about how we relate to one another. For me, politics is not worth losing friends over. Abuse and racism (which I view as abuse) is my hill to die on. I am now politically unaffiliated as is my husband.

    I take Paul’s perspective. in 1 Corinthians 9

    Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

  58. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    Dee,

    That is incorrect. Please review the SCOTUS decision in BOSTOCK v. CLAYTON COUNTY, GEORGIA. In this historic decision, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Monday that the 1964 Civil Rights Act protects gay, lesbian, and transgender employees from discrimination based on sex.

    If they are fired, they have the right to see under this Federal Law.

  59. Jacob: I like that the RSV and NRSV were developed by an ecumenical group of scholars, unlike the ESV.

    I use the NRSV sometimes. I find the language of the NRSV more comfortable than the RSV, but I agree the ecumenical nature of both translations is less problematic than some others.

    The ESV 2016 really highlighted the bias of evangelical groups in their willingness to be outright wrong in defense of gender roles, and I’m sure there’s other things they will try to “fix” in the future. They pair that with intense marketing that nobody can question them and followers shouldn’t even bother to study different perspectives, probably because their bias is so obvious if you really want to examine it.

  60. CM: That is incorrect. Please review the SCOTUS decision in BOSTOCK v. CLAYTON COUNTY, GEORGIA. In this historic decision, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Monday that the 1964 Civil Rights Act protects gay, lesbian, and transgender employees from discrimination based on sex.

    If they are fired, they have the right to see under this Federal Law.

    I’m an ex-lawyer. If you have to sue to get your rights, then you don’t have those rights. And that is what would have to happen in every jurisdiction in the country that doesn’t have an affirmative law. This is fundamentally different from being protected from the gitgo.

  61. Jeffrey Chalmers: If YEC were truly consistent with their beliefs, they should not ever get any radiation treatment, since they state that the laws of radioactive decay “ must not be constant”!!! But remember, you should NOT listen to anything I say, since as Ken Ham would say, “ he is already compromised”

    No wonder the Christian Nationalists/Dominionists are so focused on taking over and ruling with a Rod of Iron. Becoming Commanders of Holy Gilead is the only way they can win.

  62. ishy: And I think what we’ve seen with all the crazy conspiracy theorists is a logical extension of that, except that those people just stopped listening just to their pastor.

    Because a CELEBRITY Leader came along who acts more like Pastor than Pastor. ANd to those groomed and conditioned to see such corrupt behavior as Godly…

  63. “If we can disregard Scripture in the some places (sexuality, gender roles, etc.) does it really have authority in the easy places either (love your neighbor, care for the orphan and the widow)? If so, why?

    If some parts of Scripture “were true then but not now” why is any of it reliable as an authority in our lives? Were those statements errors? Is God fluid in the realm of morality? If so, couldn’t that change again in the future?”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    i’ve thought a lot about the things you hit on in your comment.

    the first thing that comes to mind is that it is not possible to follow the bible 100% as equally authoritative. if it were possible, we’d end up looking like…. well, google the word contortionist.

    we all go high on some things and low on others. guess it comes down to how prescriptive versus descriptive one sees the bible.

    i find that the sliding scale of prescriptive gets more and more cruel and destructive to one’s relationships and health, squeezing out as much freedom, happiness, joie de vivre until there’s none.

    the misery that’s left is *by faith* considered “joy” — spiritual happiness that only the elite ever attain.

    furthermore, the sliding scale of prescriptive seems, to me, to be about self. keeping one’s ‘nose clean’, making sure all T’s are crossed, all i’s are dotted…

    a modern-day talmud, to earn as many God points as possible.

    ultimately at the expense of our neighbor’s welfare, and our own quality of life.
    .
    .
    .
    “biblical” changes wherever you go in christianland.

    they can’t all be right.

    i’ve been exceedingly frustrated that wherever i’ve gone in my ‘travels’ (so to speak) in christian culture as represented in various church institutions, the sin list changes.

    the list of things i’m supposed to do and not supposed to do (the ways in which to do and not do these things) may not necessarily be explicitly described with the word “sin”,

    but that is what is implied through various ways of subtle communication.

    each church or group i’ve been a part of frames all these have-to’s and must-not’s in the gravest of ‘implied’ terms, helped along with facial expression, little sounds like deep sighs, sniffs, snorts, and body language.

    the logical take-away is that these are deal-breakers with God and only those who conform to their peculiar list are making the heavenly cut. (although they haven’t thought things through far enough to come to this realization)

    and then the logical take-away from that is heaven will be totally lonely. the only people there will be this group.

    ridiculous. ludicrous.
    .
    .
    out of sheer frustration and exasperation with rules at the expense of my neighbor’s welfare, i’ve reduced my beliefs down to treating people the way i want to be treated.

    truly don’t see how i or anyone could go wrong, here.

  64. ishy: I no longer believe anyone who says they are “certain” on what the Bible says.

    I started doing the same long ago, when the Demon Locust Plague of Revelation was “certainly” helicopter gunships armed with chemical-weapon “stingers” and piloted by long-haired bearded Hippies.

  65. elastigirl: furthermore, the sliding scale of prescriptive seems, to me, to be about self. keeping one’s ‘nose clean’, making sure all T’s are crossed, all i’s are dotted…

    Yet another face of The Gospel of Personal Salvation and ONLY Personal Salvation.
    At heart a very Selfish Gospel.

    a modern-day talmud, to earn as many God points as possible.

    And play Holier-Than-Thou One-Upmsnship games from now unto eternity.

  66. elastigirl: and then the logical take-away from that is heaven will be totally lonely. the only people there will be this group.

    “You go to Heaven for the Climate, and Hell for the Company.”
    — Mark Twain

    Or you just walk away from that Monster of a God and never look back.

  67. elastigirl: each church or group i’ve been a part of frames all these have-to’s and must-not’s in the gravest of ‘implied’ terms, helped along with facial expression, little sounds like deep sighs, sniffs, snorts, and body language.

    The exact same tactic some of my family used to guilt-trip me.
    Six decades later, it still works.

  68. elastigirl: out of sheer frustration and exasperation with rules at the expense of my neighbor’s welfare, i’ve reduced my beliefs down to treating people the way i want to be treated.

    truly don’t see how i or anyone could go wrong, here.

    Great minds often think the same thoughts.
    Here’s what John Adams wrote:

    “I am weary of contemplating nations from the lowest and
    most beastly degradations of human Life, to the highest
    Refinements of Civilization: I am weary of Philosophers,
    Theologians, Politicians, and Historians. They are immense
    Masses of Absurdities, Vices and Lies. Montesquieu had
    sense enough to say in Jest, that all our Knowledge might be
    comprehended in twelve Pages in Duodecimo: and, I believe
    him, in earnest. I could express my Faith in shorter terms.
    He who loves the Workman and his Work, and who does what he
    can to improve it, shall be accepted of him.”

  69. Jeremy: So, God is a monster? Or are you saying the God they create through their practice is a monster?

    I’d say that HUG is meaning the latter.

    But his point is valid. When you read the bible, word for word, as written – especially the old testament, you see God responsible for a lot of missives involving certain people being “put to death” along with myriad smitings of various sorts. I read one article where around 50 000 deaths were attributed to the Lord. My personal favorite is Job’s children swept away in a storm in a cosmic Las Vegas bet between God and Satan. (Don’t worry folks – he got new ones, so all’s good)

    Leaving out the general nature of suffering (why bad things happen to good people) when we talk about abuse (of any kind), in many cases the only people there are the abuser, the abused….and God. It’s cold comfort to say “there will be justice for them in that special hot place later”, when it could have been stopped up front. If my former church is to be believed – miracles are happening daily! People healed! Lives changed! In the old testament, donkeys spoke! But God couldn’t put a bug in the ear of a clown like Tom Chantry? A simple loud “stop!” would have sufficed.

    I suspect there are many people of all stripes who attend (or attended) church, maybe with a believing spouse (hand raised here) and ask the same questions. I suspect they go not out of belief but peer pressure, cultural investment, entire social life being tagged to a given religion. But in their minds, they walked away from the “monster God” a long time ago. The problem is literalist churches give them nothing to replace the monster with. I feel genuinely bad for the true believers who follow the monster – living lives tainted with fear, trying to be worthy enough while “god’s anointed” rake in big paydays and bask in the “power and glory”

    But I digress.

    Individual Christians tend to make their peace with it in one way or another, my point isn’t to make an assertion of “truth” regarding any one belief system, just to provide context to HUGs statement regarding how some people, (variously called “dones”, “nones”, “unchurched” etc) might walk away from the monster god without seeing the “good” points.

  70. Jack,

    good to see you. hope all is well with you and your loved ones, all on your respective and corporate journeys.

  71. elastigirl,

    Yes, and the site informs us about the Nikon D750 used to take the photo, also too. It looks to me like the terrain of what is called the Basin and Range area of the American west, where geological processes have led to regular mountain ranges with fairly flat basins between them. Mostly west of the Rocky Mountain range and running from Arizona up into Wyoming, it is beautiful country.

    I don’t remember the geological conditions causing the Basin and Range terrain to occur well enough to go into the details, it is discussed in detail in the book “Annals of the Former World” by John McPhee, which discusses the geological processes that over the ages resulted in the North American continent we live on today. A fascinating book that took him years to complete, he released it in multiple volumes so he would have income while he worked on the magnum opus.

  72. J R in WV,

    And this shows why one should read more of the comments before jumping in with a locale thousands of miles away from the real site of the photo.

    Crete. Hmm, why didn’t I think of that? Google image search, hmm. Duh, also…

  73. ishy,

    I’ll probably be viewed as simple but I like the NIV. I have every cotton picking translation and have tried them all. Perhaps it is a matter of enjoying an old friend.

  74. Jack,

    So if that evidence is enough to indict the God of the Bible as a monster what then do we do with human history? Every society in every geographic location and time period are murdering, enslaving, and abusing. What system of morality then is reliable?

  75. dee,

    “Perhaps it is a matter of enjoying an old friend.”
    +++++++++++++

    i have a new king james version from college days, that’s about 4″ or 5″ x 4″ or 5″. The font is large enough to easily read. parchment all crinkled, some pages probably from tears. practically opens and flips pages all on its own, now. indeed, and old friend. suits me just fine. can’t imagine why i’d ever need something new and improved.

  76. Jeremy,

    “So if that evidence is enough to indict the God of the Bible as a monster what then do we do with human history? Every society in every geographic location and time period are murdering, enslaving, and abusing. What system of morality then is reliable?”
    +++++++++++++++

    atrocities happen. tyrants happen. yet i see societies with laws against such things as murder, violence, defrauding and exploiting your neighbor, perjury, and lying in general causes a person all kinds of problems with others.

    i’ve done a fare bit of travelling far and wide. marvelous variety and diversity. the commonality is kindness. helping strangers at personal cost. with no expectation of anything in return.

    i watch my agnostic, atheist, muslim, hindu, and buddhist friends and family live by the highest integrity standards.

    where does that morality come from?

  77. Each translation has strengths and weaknesses. Find one that you read well and consistently and stick with that version.

  78. elastigirl,

    I have Bullinger’s The Companion Bible (first published 1922).
    It’s the authorized King James version of 1611.
    I love the lilting Elizabethan prose, always have.
    In addition, it has extensive margin notes and appendices chock full of factual scholarship and historical data.

  79. Muff Potter,

    “extensive margin notes and appendices chock full of factual scholarship and historical data.”
    +++++++++++++

    isn’t that the best.

    who needs famous-so-&-so’s opinion on what it means. i don’t give a flying fick what he thinks.

  80. dee: I have every cotton picking translation and have tried them all.

    Same here – my book case has multiple translations and commentaries. My oldest sword is a Thompson Chain Reference Bible (KJV) – I have 50 years of marginal notes in that. Lately, I’ve been reading from the J.B. Phillips New Testament – a very clear text within the context interpretation.

    Speaking of cotton picking, that was my first job. Our school let us out for “cotton vacation” when the local harvest was ready … made $3 per 100 pounds of cotton dragging a sack down what seemed like endless rows, making enough money during the “vacation” to buy a couple pairs of levis, a shirt or two, and some socks. (this had nothing to do with Bible translations, just thought I would toss that in so you’d know how old I am)

  81. Jeremy: So if that evidence is enough to indict the God of the Bible as a monster what then do we do with human history? Every society in every geographic location and time period are murdering, enslaving, and abusing. What system of morality then is reliable?

    What we do with human history is attempt to learn from it. In the old testament, there was no mercy for the canaanites. Stark contrast to “turn the other cheek”.
    In the modern world, people are generally horrified at civilian casualties in war. Our armed forces have policies in place to minimize them. We don’t kill all the men and enslave the women and children.
    Both schools of thought are ostensibly ‘biblical’ so why is one no longer acceptable?
    If the bible has any basis in truth and it’s humankinds interaction with the divine, then it was written by humans from a human perspective. With all the human imperfections.
    In other words, the old testament reflects the ‘morality’ of warfare in the iron age Levant. (The canaanites would have done the same in return).
    What system of morality is reliable? I generally believe we are capable of being better than our ancestors in many respects. The United States has not always lived up to the ideals of the constitution, yet it remains the touchstone that all Americans refer back to.
    Many abuses in the church come from a focus on the old testament battlefields. The idea of a priestly class that is entitled to act in any way it wants.
    They make the same mistake Judas did. They seek the power of the lion, ignoring the power of the lamb. Whether you’re a Christian or not, working together in a democracy seems to be more successful. It might be an evolutionary adaptation or ‘from God’ depending on your outlook.

  82. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    Fair enough. But now those rights are established in this SCOTUS precedent. The BOR did not apply to states originally until the Doctrine of Incorporation via the 14th Amendment was used to do so.

  83. Jack,

    Good synopsis Jack.
    I think it highlights the fact that the Bible was written to people who were ruled by autocrats, when there was no such thing as The Rights of Man, and by extension, no such thing as representative government by the people.
    So it’s no wonder then, that present day Christians struggle with what the Bible allegedly ‘teaches’, versus the Enlightenment derived society they are products of.

  84. Jack,

    We live in the age of the nuclear weapon and biological weapons, racism and nationalism abound, starvation/ malnutrition are still problems despite the most wealth and food production in the history of humankind. Are we really improving over time? Is the judgement and killing of the Canaanites etc. any more violent than the depictions of the bloody lamb in Revelation with a sword coming from his mouth? Jesus’ own words were “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword” If we reject the O.T. God shouldn’t we be consistent and reject the N.T. as well? The alternative is a God who operates outside of our understanding and we must operate on faith that the good and the bad ultimately serve God’s purpose but I do not believe you can hold onto Jesus but reject God.

  85. elastigirl,

    The understanding of right and wrong is inherent in all humans. We all agree that killing a person for fun is wrong. Why? We all agree that beating a little child to death is wrong. Why? Some would say that God has put some understanding of right and wrong into out souls.

  86. Jack: If the bible has any basis in truth and it’s humankinds interaction with the divine, then it was written by humans from a human perspective. With all the human imperfections.

    Why?

  87. Jeremy: Are we really improving over time?

    The short answer is yes. True, there are lots of issues but we didn’t cook ourselves with chloroflorocarbons as one example. That was at the height of the cold war and even North Korea banned them.
    Revelation was written in a code that we really can’t understand. It written as comfort to a persecuted people. Most of it is incomprehensible, in spite of what Jenkins & Lehay would have you believe.

    I interpret the gospel missive to refer to battle within us. Not just our actions but our thoughts as well. To be the better people in spite of the surrounding culture. In some cases, this has set people against each other.

    This doesn’t separate god from Jesus.

    I don’t understand the meaning of suffering. No can explain that. But if God really revels in the carnage of battle then why did Jesus submit to crucifixion?

    He said render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, render unto God what is God’s.

    If we accept the gospels at face value then there is more at play.

    I don’t know what that is but the message of redemption, tolerance, love and forgiveness aligns more with my thinking than death, smiting, injustice, blood feuds and more smiting.

    That turns the faith into a death cult, not a life affirming community.

  88. Jack,

    Thank you for the clarification. I find we are closer together than my initial reading of the previous post. I agree God does not revel in suffering fully evidenced by the salvation provided in the person of Jesus Christ. I do not know that we are improving though. I find simply different forms of old sins and even some of our attempts to resolve human suffering in and of ourselves is self serving in origin, but I am thankful for common grace that we are not as evil as we might be. Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I appreciate the time and effort.

  89. dee,

    i see it as the observable “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”

    i see such majesty in human beings. I’ve encountered so many perfect strangers (some wearing garb from other religions) who gave of themselves to help me, expecting nothing in return.

    my atheist and agnostic friends and family are as ‘christlike’ as they come.

  90. dee,

    As mentioned, we don’t endorse wiping out our enemies and enslaving the survivors. God gave Abraham a child through a slave girl – not something done in the US today (at least not legally), we don’t endorse putting people to death for moral crimes, in fact some of those moral crimes are perfectly legal, it’s considered a hate crime to call for an execution. Women can talk in church without worrying if they’re going to ge there head shaved. Again if a head shaving was forced then charges would probably ensue.

    These are the cultural affectations of the writers based on the time they wrote in. I don’t believe these are divine edicts.

    So the bible reflects the imperfections of its writers.

  91. Jack,

    that’s how i see it. even divine inspiration comes through a human filter.

    (as far as divine inspiration in the bible, clearly some things are more inspired than others. in the same way that most people can pick out inspired art amongst art that might barely register on the inspired scale, if at all.)

  92. dee,

    No doubt the less religiosity of the culture is a factor, but it’s not just that. The Episcopal church was cratering in membership long before 10 years ago. You may remember Bishop John Shelby Spong, who was routinely in the news in the 80s and 90s for advocating a “Christianity that must change or die.” He doesn’t even profess belief in theism, let alone traditional Trinitarian orthodoxy. As a whole, though some individual parishes don’t fit this bill, the denomination isn’t recognizably Christian. When you can’t get rid of a bishop who isn’t even a monotheist, you’ve gone full on off the reservation.

  93. dee: Some would say that God has put some understanding of right and wrong into out souls.

    That is what Paul argues in Romans 1–2, at least.

  94. Jeremy,

    All excellent questions. Biblical interpretation is more difficult than a lot of people argue. But you pretty much have to say all of it is normative, otherwise there is no way one is going to keep from picking and choosing whatever one wants according to the spirit of the age. That’s a danger for all of us in any case, but deciding what is and what is not inspired makes it impossible to view any of it as transcendentally binding. People who want to say only some of it its binding inevitably turn Jesus into a modern Westerner instead of a first-century Jew. More conservative readers can also make Jesus into modern Westerners, but at least if you hold that every word is inspired, there’s some hope of critique. If only some of it is inspired, there’s no critique possible. Jesus becomes whoever the current culture wants him to be, and there’s no possibility of making him something else or in questioning what has happened.

    Saying it is all normative doesn’t mean it’s all followed in the same way. For instance, the sacrificial system remains normative because the only way to approach the holy God is through sacrifice. But we don’t offer up animals because we come to God through the sacrifice of Jesus. He is the sacrificial system we follow.

    The traditional (at least in the West) division of the Scriptures into moral, ceremonial, and civil categories helps a lot here.

  95. Robert,

    I remember reading one book by Spong years ago and couldn’t believe that he was a Bishop in the Episcopal Church. At that time, I remember telling my husband that if his theology was acceptable, then Episcopal Church was dying.

    It does appear to me that the evangelicals have gained some footing in the Church of England. I wrote about that recently.

  96. dee: The understanding of right and wrong is inherent in all humans.

    If not, then the Almighty should have just created a race of robots, like the ones Mr. Klaatu spoke of in the 1951 production of The Day the Earth Stood Still.

  97. Muff Potter,

    Could also say it’s an evolutionary adaptation. Wide spread acceptance of Infanticide is generally not good for the species as a whole. Like the idea of the social contract.

    I just watched an interesting documentary positing that religion was significant in bringing early societies together. While someone may be from a different community, the shared faith creates a degree of trust. This allows the sharing of ideas. And shared security.

  98. Jack,

    “Could also say it’s an evolutionary adaptation. Wide spread acceptance of Infanticide is generally not good for the species as a whole.”
    ++++++++++++

    could also say evolution is God’s mechanism by which human beings are made in the image of God.

    kindness, treating people the way you want to be treated, don’t murder/steal/exploit/manipulate = survival of the fittest behaviors that promote the fittest, healthiest beings.

    and that keep other affinities in check, like intelligence and leadership.

    who knows how it all works…

    since we’ll never have all the answers to all these things, and we don’t need them, “let’s…go…fly a kite”

  99. elastigirl: who knows how it all works…

    since we’ll never have all the answers to all these things, and we don’t need them, “let’s…go…fly a kite”

    Kind of fun to speculate though…

  100. elastigirl: since we’ll never have all the answers to all these things, and we don’t need them, “let’s…go…fly a kite”

    I second the motion.
    If it was good enough for Mary Poppins, it’s good enough for me.

  101. Muff Potter: Do I dare and out myself by saying that I reject the evolutionary paradigm based on gut feelings?
    Muff’s heresies know no bounds.

    Cool by me. I’m a universalist. Nothing is heretical as far as I’m concerned.

    At the core, I think we’re all on the same page.

  102. dee,

    Yes, it’s an interesting thing. I don’t know all the ins and outs of Anglican polity, but worldwide the Church of Anglican is staunchly evangelical, though in America the ECUSA as a whole is not. It’s parallel to the current UMC in that regard, with African churches being very evangelical while the Methodists in America running the spectrum, as you allude to in this post.

    Weirdly, ACNA and ECUSA are both in communion with Canterbury, but ACNA is supervised by African bishops (I think), who are in a strained communion with the ECUSA, but ACNA is not.

  103. elastigirl,

    Here are the facts:
    The evolutionary model has a virtual Mt. Everest of data to support its framework of incremental changes over vast oceans of time.
    All I’m saying is that evolutionary thought is not the only way to account for the huge array of life as we know it on this our Earth.
    Personally, I believe in special creation in situ, by the hand of the Almighty himself, sans a long and iterative procedure.

    There was a time when Geo-Centrism (the sun, moon, and all heavenly bodies revolving in perfect circles about the earth) reigned supreme, and it had iron-clad Math rigor to back it up. Skeptics challenged it and came up with the modified model known as Heliocentrism. And the rest is as they say, history.

  104. elastigirl,

    Not believing in the evolutionary model is tantamount to heresy in some Christian circles. You (generic you) can be labeled quaint, ‘unscientific’, and an insufferable rube for doing so.
    Make no mistake, I am not a Ken Ham disciple, he’d just as soon see me burnt at the stake for denying PSA (penal substitutionary atonement).
    Nor do I bow down before Francis Collins and his impeccable academic pedigree.
    I am a free and independent thinker beholden to none.

  105. Catholic Gate-Crasher,

    I apologize for being so late to respond. You are right, there are linkages between Methodism and Catholicism.

    It isn’t widely known outside Methodist circles, but Wesley wrote a long irenic letter to an Irish Roman Catholic. It is well worth reading.

    My wife and I team up with a Catholic couple to do Taize services at any church that wants one. We enjoy very much doing this. Shortly before the pandemic we went to a charismatic Catholic weekend retreat. We were the only Protestants there and we are not charismatic. Yet we felt very comfortable there and God blessed and refreshed us through them.

    Here is the conclusion of Wesley’s letter to the Irish Catholic:

    “Let us, fourthly, endeavor to help each other on in what­ever we are
    agreed leads to the kingdom. So far as we can, let us always rejoice
    to strengthen each other’s hands in God. Above all, let us each take
    heed to himself (since each must give an account of himself to God)
    that he fall not short of the religion of love, that he be not
    condemned in that he himself approveth. O let you and I (whatever
    others do) press on to the prize of our high calling! that, being
    justified by faith, we may have peace with God through our Lord
    Jesus Christ; that we may rejoice in God through Jesus Christ, by
    whom we have received the atonement; that the love of God may be
    shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
    Let us count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge
    of Jesus Christ our Lord; being ready for Him to suffer the loss of
    all things, and counting them but dung that we may win Christ.–I am

    Your affectionate servant for Christ’s sake.”

  106. readingalong: ne of my Grandmothers was Methodist, and card games were never allowed in their house (except for UNO!), even w/o betting. We also discovered that the Methodist Daycare our kids went to for years objected, because the older kids learned to play poker (no money involved, just cards), but once the administration found out the game was forbidden. Guess we all have our quirks.

    I had to laugh at this. It was the same with my Methodist grandmother. We were at least allowed to play rummy, but not poker.

  107. ishy,

    I’m so sorry, Ishy, about your experience. Our church has experienced much of the same angst. There is actually a strong fundamentalist presence in the UMC, something most people don’t realize or understand. Particularly in the bible belt regions – Appalachia and the south.

    There several distinct groups within the UMC, not just two. However, both the farther left and the farther right have had loud voices. They each seek to dominate each other and exclude each other. The media publicizes those voices. There are other viewpoints and voices.

    But it is agonizing to see the debates descent into nastiness and ugliness. Ironically, Methodism is mainly about the grace of God. Oftentimes, however, we fail in our strengths.

    I have, after 70 years, figured out that I have to trust in Christ alone, and it is best to avoid these battles and this angst in particular. I have not figured out to practice that trust in Christ, however. Somehow we need to value our loved ones and relationships in the midst of disagreement.

    I pray God brings the warmth, peace and rest of the Holy Spirit to you.

  108. linda:
    There is “more to the story” than just a split over the LBGTQ+ issue, or at least how some are presenting it today.

    Yes, Linda, you bring up a very big part of the story. There was an attempt by some aggressive progressives to set up the USA as a separate jurisdiction, as a way of separating the US from the Global South. That failed.

    Racism is a funny thing. For some progressives, Black Lives Matter until those with colored skin disagree on certain theological and moral issues. What would critical race theory reveal about this situation?

    I don’t know. Perhaps it’s not a racist thing. Perhaps it is an elitist colonialist perspective: those in the global south have not evolved and progressed as much as we enlightened intellectuals. I have heard conservations that led me to think this was more of the underlying problem. Tolerance will not be tolerated.

    Frederick Buechner wrote, “My wife went to a college in the fifties that was so tolerant religiously that it wouldn’t allow an ordained minister to conduct an informal discussion group on the campus.”

    My dad was UMC (just Methodist until it became the UMC) and we spent many years in it. (Geography often dictated our limited church choices.)We enjoyed our time in it, and as our synod in the Lutheran church is moving ever more hard line right we may go back someday.Who knows?

    But the Methodist church is based on connects and sticking to the voted on Book of Discipline.There are jurisdictions and some districts that are defying the rules voted on by the whole church, such as concerning Bishop Oliveto.This would have been a no brainer to kick out any such defiant leaders had it been any other issue.Tender hearts even among the most conservative have prevented that.In the USA, that is.

    But a big deal was made back in 1967 that this was to be an international denomination, and those in Africa, Asia, and South America would have equal voice.Well, most Methodists are not in the USA and they have voted their belief.But many in the USA NOW think brown skinned people are not woke enough and their vote should not count as much.And there have been shenanigans galore regarding visas, etc, to try and suppress their voices.

    In all fairness, it isn’t just the conservatives that want to leave.So do the ultra progressives.But to be absolutely fair, when the international vote favored the conservatives, the progressives should have left.Instead it is they who are basically forcing a split. And forcing the conservatives out.

    And the major reason for the name Global Methodist Church is that is the group that will.not.disenfranchise.dark.skinned.people.

  109. linda,

    This is the best statement of the problem that I have read. I am aware that some very deceitful things have been done to push the progressive views, things that have been unfair and condescending to the UMC in Africa, Asia and South America. I can’t respect that, no matter how right the progressives think they are. The end doesn’t justify the means. Transparency and respect for all opinions is a vital part of spiritual fellowship and cohesiveness. I’m not seeing that in the church today. How could the message be more plain? It’s the progressive way, or the highway.