A long-lived storm circling around the north polar region on Uranus. NASA
“The Bible tells us to love our neighbors, and also to love our enemies; probably because generally they are the same people.” ― G.K. Chesterton
This post is subtitled” CJ Mahaney’s church is still affirming the Baptist Faith and Message. How long, Lord, how long?
Last week, my daughter, Abby, visited home to discuss some wedding plans. The guest numbers are up in the air due to COVID restrictions on the size of groups. Even a shower can be limited and she is exploring ideas with bridesmaids for maybe one virtual shower. She has friends all over the cotton-picking place, including Norway! As we were talking, she suddenly changed the subject and asked “Why did you bring us to our former SBC church?” I turned around and said “Oh. no. you. don’t. You three kids got to caterwauling that you wanted to be with your new-found friends (we had just moved back to the area) and demanded we go there.” And just like that, we became Southern Baptist.
Little did I know that this choice would lead to a major change in my life. As I watched this church mishandle (in my opinion)a terrible abuse situation involving many boys and an SEBTS student, I was sadly introduced to abuse in the SBC. Abuse in the SBC would become a focus of a future blog known as TWW. Little did I know that I was getting a first-hand view of the problem.
The Southern Baptist Church attendance numbers continue to decline, no matter how *cool* the new leadership looks.
I will be referring back and forth to this Christianity Today. (CT) is playing along with the game: Southern Baptists Expel Two More Churches Over Abuse. Spend some time looking at this title. It fails to headline the other two churches which were expelled. We’ll get back to it.
While the denomination has seen growth outside its Bible Belt strongholds, including new church plants led by non-Anglo pastors, its membership decline continues to accelerate.
In the linked article, again from CT, Southern Baptists See Biggest Drop in 100 Years subtitled “As baptisms and membership continue to decline, top SBC leader challenges the annual report process.”
But overall, the denomination’s Annual Church Profile—released today by LifeWay Christian Resources and capturing 2019 statistics—shows a trajectory of serious decline and a sharp challenge for leaders concerned about evangelism and retention.
I don’t believe the following numbers. Insiders know they are a lot lower since most churches do not remove people from their membership rolls and some people can be counted many times as they move from SBC church to SBC church. I think the number could even be half the number stated -@8 million. This is the worst kept secret in the SBC.
The loss of 288,000 church members last year brings total SBC membership to 14.5 million, down from its peak of 16.3 million in 2006.
All three of my adult kids fit into this next category: the kids don’t stay in the SBC.
Last year, researcher and statistician Ryan Burge—analyzing other survey data about Southern Baptist identity for CT—foundthat fewer children who were raised in the SBC remain in the denomination as adults, suggesting that the bigger factor behind the SBC’s decline isn’t the struggle to gain new converts; it’s keeping their own.
And if you don’t like the outcome, question the process (which I believe could yield much lower numbers.)
This year, Executive Committee chair Ronnie Floyd—who leads the body in charge of denominational business outside of the SBC Annual Meeting—also called the process into question. For the first time, one state convention didn’t provide membership numbers at all: Oklahoma. The profile used estimates based on previous data to calculate the number of Southern Baptists in the Sooner State.
So what about those 2 churches that were excluded? You mean there were four?
It wasn’t two, it was 4 but they would rather not talk about the other two. See the NYT’s headline: Southern Baptists Expel 2 Churches Over Sex Abuse and 2 for L.G.B.T.Q. Inclusion
Subtitled: In a fiery speech, the denomination’s president decried “fissures and failures and fleshly idolatries.”
Do you see the difference between CT and NYT headlines? That’s right. It appears that CT was covering for the SBC by burying the real count at the bottom of the article. I believe that churches should have the right to decide who can and cannot be members. However, I believe they need to be honest about their processes. I have seen this stuff buried on church websites as well. If a church or denomination does not believe that LGBT people have a place in the membership of the church, say so upfront. Be brave. Take the hits. Don’t they believe that Jesus will protect them?
The NYT reports:
The committee “disfellowshipped” Towne View Baptist Church in Kennesaw, Ga., and St. Matthews Baptist Church in Louisville, Ky., for church policies deemed accepting of homosexuality, in violation of the denomination’s statement of faith.
Towne View’s conversations about becoming an “affirming” congregation, and its decision to accept two gay couples as members in 2019, cost the church at least 30 percent of its membership, Jim Conrad, the pastor, said
Compare the NYT headline with the one from the CT article: Southern Baptists Expel Two More Churches Over Abuse
To be fair they mentioned it later in this article but it was short and sweet, hidden between two other issues. C”mon, folks, report it upfront and take the hits.
Towne View Baptist Church in Kennesaw, Georgia, and St. Matthews Baptist Church in Louisville, Kentucky, were disfellowshipped for holding “membership and leadership standards [that] affirm homosexual behavior.”
This disfellowshipping thing is not having the effect it once had. These churches can join the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, become independent, or join a growing number of other new denominations. This threat is not the sting it once was.
Two churches were disfellowshipped due to having sex offenders in the pulpit. CJ Mahaney’s church is still a cooperating member.
At least Baptist Press mentions 4 churches in SBC Executive Committee disfellowships four churches. Hee are the other two churches that got disfellowshipped over having convicted molesters in the pulpit.
!. Antioch Baptist
Antioch Baptist employs as its pastor John Randy Leming Jr., who pleaded guilty to two counts of statutory rape for oral sex with a 16-year-old congregant when he pastored Shiloh Baptist Church in Sevier County. He pleaded guilty in 1998 to the offenses that occurred in May and June of 1994, when he was 31, and lost his appeal of the concurrent 18-month sentences he deemed harsh. Leming has served at Antioch since March 2014,
2. West Side Baptist Church
West Side Pastor David Pearson is listed on the National Sex Offender registry for his 1993 conviction of aggravated criminal sexual assault of a child in Denton, Texas. Contacted by Baptist Press regarding the EC’s action, Pearson said he had no comment.
West Side Baptist Church was previously disfellowshipped by the Baptist Resource Network of Pennsylvania/South Jersey, but continued to affiliate with the SBC.
I would hardly brag about this action. It was a slam dunk. Can you imagine this denomination has ignored these churches for so long? Shame on them. This was more virtue signaling. Going after the easy pickings. This committee is studiously ignoring the large number of churches mentioned in the Houston Chronicle exposé. Those churches are too large and too influential, unlike the dinky little churches with molesters in the pulpit they easily threw out of the SBC (and even they didn’t care.)
JD Greear thinks the disagreement over critical race theory is downright demonic.
SBC president and Executive Committee member J. D. Greear during remarks: “Southern Baptists in large part are ready to walk into the future. But we are spending a lot of time tolerating those who would rip us apart,” said SBC president and Executive Committee member J. D. Greear during remarks Monday night. “Brothers, let’s just call it: These things are demonic.”
I bet that was well received.
According to the NYT article, Greear seems to be quite concerned over the expressed concerns of critical race theory.
“Do we want to be a Gospel people or a Southern culture people?” Mr. Greear asked in his speech on Monday night. “Which is the more important part of our name, ‘Southern’ or ‘Baptist’?”
But an increasingly influential conservative wing of the denomination accuses those leaders of prioritizing “social justice” over biblical truth. They denounce the encroachment of “critical race theory” — an academic framework intended to capture the deep influence of racism — and accuse the S.B.C.’s national leadership of being out of step with the rank and file.
The public hostility to critical race theory, which some call frank and necessary discussions of racism, prompted several high-profile Black pastors to leave the denomination in December.
Let me outline the basic problem for the SBC As we have said on this blog, it is so easy to dump an SBC affiliation and become nondenominational. Removing the ability of a church to seat messengers and vote at the huge SBC convention is not viewed as the privilege it once was.
Add to that the problem with:
- churches that have a history of sex abuse of kids
- the disagreement over doctrine, especially Calvinism and charismatic gifts
- the ugliness over the Critical Race Theory
- the long history of racism in the SBC
- the role of women in the SBC
- the accelerating loss of members
It is so easy to walk out. Few care that they can’t vote at the SBC convention. I predict that the next few years will be quite difficult, with or without demons.
1st
Remember what the “C” in “CT” stands for.
Numero tres.
I think they are all tilting at the results of the SBC’s huge problem, but pose no real threat to the problem itself.
Interesting that we had not heard about these Churches with pastors with previous sex abuse convictions….. how many more are out there??
BREAKING NEWS: Protesters Gather Outside Southwest Baptist University
“A group gathered in front of Southwest Baptist University Friday afternoon. They were protesting recent actions by the board of trustees and the removal of professors. It’s feared the university is shifting toward indoctrination instead of education.”
https://www.ky3.com/2021/02/27/protesters-gather-outside-southwest-baptist-university/
Max,
Thanks so much for posting this! I hope that the university listens, and that students, parents, and accreditation folks weigh in. For years it has been difficult to keep colleges open, unless a place has a huge endowment. The pandemic poses a grave threat to higher education. The least a college can do is to offer a legitimate, rigorous education.
… Little said the goal of SBU, at one time, was to prepare professionals for their field, while expanding students’ minds to make them witnesses to others. He’s concerned the university is now pushing narrow-minded thinking by getting rid of programs and professors.
SBU said the Philosophy department was eliminated in June 2020. A spokesperson said that decision was made based on very low enrollment in the program.
SBU said there are no plans to eliminate the Behavioral Sciences department, but Kaylor said he believes it’s being targeted next.
“What is even the point of a liberal arts college,” Kaylor said. “Is education about indoctrination, only teaching one way to think? Or is it about helping students see all these different perspectives to broaden their horizons?” …
I hope so, too. Unfortunately, that approach didn’t work at SBTS when the young Al Mohler became President. He promptly began to unplug faculty and programs which did not mesh with his “theology.” The saddest development there was the dismissal of beloved professor and Dean of the Carver School of Church Social Work, Dr. Diana Garland. According to Big “The culture of social work and the culture of theological education are not congruent.”
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2015/09/22/rip-diana-garland/
Make no mistake about it, Calvinization of the SBC is at the root of these not-so-subtle changes taking place at SBC seminaries, colleges, and a growing number of churches. A “cancel culture” is taking place within SBC … the plan is to change the belief and practice of a generation of Southern Baptists with indoctrination not education; critical thinking is discouraged.
should read “According to Big Al …”
“Little did I know that this choice would lead to a major change in my life.”
I firmly believe that God takes us through valleys because He can trust us to help others out.
“The Southern Baptist Church attendance numbers continue to decline, no matter how *cool* the new leadership looks.”
What the young reformers have failed to recognize is that most of the *cool* members they attract ain’t got no money! They come for the free coffee/donuts in the foyer, fog machines, and cool band. The Calvinistas run the old folks off who want to worship Jesus (who also pay the bills) and then wonder how they are going to keep the electricity on.
“The loss of 288,000 church members last year brings total SBC membership to 14.5 million, down from its peak of 16.3 million in 2006.”
As a 70+ year member of SBC, I can tell you that reported members in the denomination have always been inflated funny-numbers. There are millions on church rolls who have died, relocated to other cities & denominations, or otherwise unaccounted for. Of the 16 million, there are probably only 8 million who actually attend church occasionally … and only 4 million or so who would be considered active members. The latter number continues to dwindle as the New Calvinist plan to shift belief and practice of a once-great evangelistic denomination becomes more well known … they didn’t sign up for Calvinism!
“CJ Mahaney’s church is still a cooperating member”
One of the biggest scams ever worked on SBC … thanks to Al Mohler.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
These are the ones they heard about. My guess is that there are quite a few on the down low. My guess is that they are associate pastors, youth pastors and the like. It is easier to keep those hidden.
Max,
I have to believe that Mohler is playing games. He disassociated from CJ but CJ is still there. If Mohler ewantred him out, he would be out.
“Removing the ability of a church to seat messengers and vote at the huge SBC convention is not viewed as the privilege it once was.”
Attendance at the annual convention (pre-New Calvinism) numbered in the tens of thousands … it is now less than 5,000. When it was clear that decisions had already been made before the annual convention by the NeoCal elite, many churches opted not to send messengers to vote. The denomination is totally controlled by a few at the top, not the masses in the pew.
Max,
There is no question about that. That hard year, exposing one church and then finding another pedophile in my next church immediately upon attending was difficult. When I saw the second pedophile, I literally said “God, you have to be kidding.” Of course they kept the pedophile until they kicked him out for *something.*
It was so crazy and hard I decided to start a blog. So glad you are here. I am now grateful for the experience.I saw what goes on in churches when it comes to abuse and the picture is not pretty.
Since both are in Louisville, I suspect they sneak out at night in black hoodies to meet and discuss taking over the world for New Calvinism. Big Al is waiting for things to blow over with CJ, for the blogosphere to focus on other bad boys. Meanwhile, the beat goes on … Calvinization of SBC is almost complete.
Max,
Absolutely, Max. The whispered numbers are half the presented numbers. I was in a Sunday school class in my SBC church. We decided to clean up the rolls. There were a bunch of people on it whose presence had not darkened the doorway. Well, guess what? We were told not to do that. Sunday school la la land.
Mohler’s fingerprints are on several past SBC leaders who were shown the door. He’s the wizard behind the curtain across SBC life.
Todd and I will be the thorn in their side.
Blessed are the powerful, for they shall inherit what is left of the SBC. /s
Become the best in your field for the glory of God.
Except:
-not in the behavioral sciences.
-not in the DOJ fighting CSA & DV,
-nor in legal fields supporting independent investigations.
-not women.
-not as epidemiologists supporting pandemic precautions,
-nor as independent critical thinkers in politics & policy.
– …
When professionalism & expertise limit the power of the patriarchy, ghost & eliminate the professionals, & elevate the patriarchy.
The clash of patriarchy & professional expertise, i.e., professionals in their fields. For the glory of God? No. For the glory of the patriarchy: goons (enforcers, regulation), graft (cover ups, predation, hunting, hunting grounds), greed ($$$).
Solution: as Jesus said, run – don’t walk – to the next town. Move, like Abraham or Lot, out of their sphere of influence. Move on. Re-locate. Vote with feet.
Yes-votes. Stampers as in rubber stamping. Authoritarian regimes always operate this way. #Strongmen by @ruthbenghiat = the playbook revealed.
It’s a spiritual gift 🙂
This is in the Seattle area. She describes a hostile take-over:
@mariachong Feb 14: “Guys—if you’ve noticed I’ve been unusually quiet:
“A group of anti-mask far-right extremists are attempting a coup to overturn the law-abiding leadership of my church. All hell broke loose. Trying to do damage control! Quite a shock.
“PS. This BS is happening all over America.”
@mariachong Feb 14 “I’m going to humbly ask if you believe in God, to pray for us. My pastors have two small children and a secretive group of very confused elders put them on UNPAID LEAVE in the middle of a snowstorm and a pandemic.”
= leadership team of most New Calvinist churches
The current President/CEO of the SBC Executive Committee is RonnieFloyd who is personally responsible for Mahaney’s Sovereign Grace Church Louisville (SGCL) being brought into the SBC in the first place!
James Forbis:
“I was specifically sent to SGCL to help them make the transition to dual alignment with the SBC. I was under the direction of then [convention] president Ronnie Floyd”
“I also personally hand delivered the first of many CP offerings to the Executive Committee in Nashville while on a business trip there”
https://sbcvoices.com/what-should-we-think-about-pastor-platt/#comment-353004
Forbis:
“I was the ‘guy’ that Dr. Floyd appointed because I had been tasked by him to assist Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville’s transition to become affiliated with the SBC”
“I hand-delivered the check to Frank Page while passing through Nashville”
https://sbcvoices.com/steve-gaines-on-the-cooperative-program/#comment-342101
Otherwise known as pay to play.
I’m so happy Ruth Graham is with The New York Times now!
It doesn’t sound like the LGBTQ-affirming churches will miss out on much by leaving the SBC.
@mariachong writes that this is happening all over USA?
“PS. This BS is happening all over America.”
– we’re (social group) are out of the loop. Hmmm … we are just unaware? No idea. Because of Covid? We’re not in church buildings, although we have volunteered outdoors & done deliveries (no contact) for food shelves & such … Church is online; seems to work.
This is called “the bagman”.
Preferably in untraceable cash.
And play the Game of Thrones amongst themselves.
ObserverCN,
Our affirming American Baptist church was essentially shown the door by our regional group. Their loss. We gained self respect, freedom to not have others impose their interpretation of scripture on us (I thought that was a cornerstone of being Baptist?) and new congregants that would have never attended a non-affirming church. We joined a denominational group that is more free thinking and committed to diversity. SBC stays on the side of authoritarianism.
Lackluster legacy: Put the lime in the coconut?
hmmm…
CJ was scheduled to retire at age 60, but he missed that milestone due to national reputation overexposure, lackluster lawsuits results, un·prec·e·dent·ed brand shrinkage , church polity conversion, organizational national move and name change, and an unpopular book demand.
Chase the wind, reap a whirlwind?
The backstory,
Rachael Denhollander on The Story with Martha Maccallum 3-16-18.
Describing credible allegations of sexual abuse coverup in the network of Sovereign Grace Churches led by C.J. Mahaney, and in the Evangelical community at large.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeY_7O5BvD4
Confronting the trama of sexual abuse in the Christian church,
Rachael Denhollander on Church Abuse,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_J4uzDrORs
One Last Question with Rachael Denhollander
A sobering and honest conversation with Rachael Denhollander about why churches have become targets for sexual predators and what can and must be done,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWTOnJtV_Sc
Rachael Denhollander – “A Time to Speak: Addressing Justice and Forgiveness”,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZsA8tur_Ik
Wise. Given that they are normal, wonderful people.
Predators & their enablers look for a different sort of “affirming” church & they will find it, here in the USA.
Two down, hundreds (thousands?) to go:
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/investigations/abuse-of-faith/
Rachael Denhollander, who became known internationally as the first woman to file a police report and speak publicly against Michigan State University and USA Gymnastics team doctor Larry Nassar, shares how Christian theology shapes our perspective on, and approach to, abuse. “As Christians we are uniquely positioned to speak into a culture of abuse. You have the ability to make your institutions of Christian higher education less safe for predators and a refuge for those who have suffered.”,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTL52ijFNqI
“Insiders know they are a lot lower since most churches do not remove people from their membership rolls and some people can be counted many times as they move from SBC church to SBC church.”
True that. Growing up I attended a church which probably had around 400 members. If we had 100 in Sunday morning service that was a good thing. I knew of THREE true shut-ins. The majority of the people on our rolls, we didn’t have any address or phone (this was before e-mail), only a name. And one case we got a letter from a Methodist church saying that a couple (long-time inactive) were joining their church; since SBC churches don’t accept or grant letters to non-Baptist churches they stayed on the rolls.
And I recently joined an SBC church, told them I was coming from another one, but they think that church is non-denominational (since it doesn’t have Baptist in its name), so I’m likely still on the other church’s rolls as well.
My Wife grew up in an American Baptist church, while I was raised a Unitarian-Universalist. We were married in her American Baptist Church just after she graduated from the University. I was in the Navy at the time.
She explained the break away of the American Baptist Church and the SBC over missionaries to Africa from slave holders in the South. Was amazing to me! In 1971 there were still people who thought you could be a Christian in a church that thought Slavery was OK back in the day!!
Nope. Just not gonna believe in that, not at all. Of course U-U isn’t strictly Christian, Deist rather than Trinitarian, but we know better than to think Slavery was OK under any circumstances. Also have been OK with LBGTQ … etc for a very long time.
Authoritarian Patriarchy is not Christian, not at all. If Calvinism right there, it isn’t Christian either. That’s my long and short of it.
AP sounds like the contemporaries of Jesus that were not fans of. Jesus being the measure of a man (or woman).
Q. If the descriptive alphabet people have been deemed biblically non “Kosher” by the SBC, what welcome, if any, will they now receive?
Preaching like Jesus to the LGBT Community and its Supporters | JD Greear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhcrMyRv3wg
She has friends all over the cotton-picking place, including Norway!
I see Norway, I upvote!
I hope your daughter will have a beautiful wedding despite the restrictions.
For the rest of the post, no comments , only sadness
*keep looking at the fjords*
It’s not just Calvinism, either. Back in the day, Gallup used to do all this polling and they’d ask if people attended church the previous Sunday and those church attendance numbers used to be a barometer of something. Declining church attendance numbers have sent the powers that be into a tizzy. In any case, the USA has been something of an outlier compared to Europe, where church attendance in most countries hovers at around 5 percent.
There was always a problem with those polls–people lie. Churchgoing is an expectation, a virtuous act, an intention, and people said they went, but really didn’t. There have been a couple of studies (now dated, as they were performed around 1990). The first is where researchers went out and counted heads in one county at every church they could find. Their results indicated that church attendance was around 20 percent. A similar study was done on a particular group of people–atomic workers who had to keep diaries of their movements because of the possibility of, well, being literally radioactive. And the results were also similar–people were not going to church, again by similar percentages.
Since the turn of the century, church attendance has slid, and the polls of church affiliation are quite telling. Aggregated percentages of Protestants have moved from 51 percent to 43 percent between 2007 and 2019. Catholicism went from 24 percent to 20 percent. At the same time, “nothing in particular” went from 12 to 17 percent, agnostic went from 2 to 5 percent, and atheist from 2 to 4 percent. (This is from Pew Research Center, Religion and Public Life surveys.)
So yeah, maybe people are leaving the Baptist church for the Methodist church down the street, or maybe the Episcopal parish, but there are quite a few people who have slipped out the back door of the last church they attended, not to return and are sleeping late on Sunday mornings. Or out jogging, walking their dogs, hiking, or attempting to read a book in Spanish (that’d be me).
During a Sunday afternoon drive a few years ago, we saw a sailboat on a local lake named “My Tithe.”
I understand dwindling interest in doing church in America. I’ve never thought the organized “church” resembled the Church of the Bible. Somewhere over the centuries, we lost contact with how we are to be as God’s people. Every once in a while, a real-deal man of God and a genuine people of faith get together and have Church! (but that’s a rare and endangered experience)
It took Southern Baptists 150 years to “repent” of the denomination’s racial sins, by passing a resolution to that effect at the SBC annual convention in 1995. SBC Founders included Calvinist slave-holding pastors and deacons in the South. They firmly believed that sovereign God was on their side in the Civil War until early Confederate victories turned to defeat. After the War, Southern Baptists distanced themselves from the Founders’ theology and remained distinctly non-Calvinist in belief and practice … until Al Mohler and his band of New Calvinists started dragging SBC back to its roots. They now enslave folks to reformed doctrine and put women into bondage through the “beauty of complementarity” with the same dark hearts of the Founders.
You’re getting at another crucial point, I think. A lot of Christians don’t go to church very often for whatever reason… but many remain Christians, rather than changing their beliefs.
(My own view is that people are Christians if they say they are. Belief is between a person and God, not something that a neighbor can judge.)
Max,
In some ways, Max’s analysis says it all…. use theology to justify your selfish “structure”… which is in contrast to JC’s command… love G&d, and love your neighbor as yourself… of course, Neo Cal’s just resident the word “neighbor”
“But we don’t understand why everyone is leaving! All we asked is that everybody respect our authority and do everything we tell them to do!”
ishy,
Because “WE” are G$d’s anointed!! How do we know you ask? Because “WE” say so!!
While this might seem silly, I have yet to hear them make a case as to why they have such authority, and contradict gospel accounts of JC discussing authority and path to him! The “keys” argument is pretty pathetic, if you ask me..
It used to be fairly common for people in churches to say, “I’m glad you joined us today,” and things like, “How are you?”
Folks still might leave and never come back. But the ever more fantastical threats don’t seem to be working either.
None of these people who are for the “beauty of complementarity” will explain how it’s supposed to work for the slightly over 50 percent of adult American women who are single, divorced or widowed. I’ve asked. I’ve gotten no answer whatsoever.
PS Women are not male property.
Jesus has no authority in New Calvinist churches … church leaders have it all. It’s obvious that Jesus has no influence there either.
I have yet to hear anyone describe New Calvinists as loving. It just doesn’t fit.
Several years ago, we were suckered into attending an SBC “Old” Calvinist church. After experiencing the lack of being welcomed by an apparently unloving bunch and witnessing little fellowship among them, I asked the pastor about this. He said “They are just shy.” I responded “All 200 of them?!!” We never went back.
There are numerous flavors of theology in Christendom. Which one has a corner on truth? Jesus told us not to forsake the commandments of God for the teachings and traditions of men … and we went right out and did it anyway!
Speaking of … Tom Ascol, President, SBC’s Founders Ministries, is making waves for proclaiming that VP Kamala Harris is going to Hell!
https://wordandway.org/2021/02/18/founders-ministry-president-vp-harris-going-to-hell/
How respectful is that? (even if you agree with him). We are supposed to respect those in authority over us … but I suppose Ascol doesn’t think there is an authority over him since he sits on the highest point on earth as the President of Founders Ministries.
Max,
It just never ends with these types… throwing red meat to right wing wolves…
And do not forget, I am supposed follow these leaders “ with no questions” since I am not “anointed”..
IMO, we are never to submit to illegitimate authority … especially if it’s in the church.
They also can’t explain why they have lavish lifestyles and constant scandals, but we’re supposed to believe they deserve their self-assigned “authority”.
“Who’s this ‘Jesus’? There is only CALVIN.”
“YOU WILL RESPECT! MAH! AUTHORIAH!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rHuinnfVJo
Well fancy that.
Ascol would probably insist that Muff’s goin’ to hell too.
Muff Potter,
This partially how they get their “authority”…. If the act like they “know” these kinds of things enough, some people believe it…. I have read what some people have written about good old JohnyMac… they say “he speaks with authority, he speaks from the Bible, and says things people do not want to hear… so he must “have authority”…. incredibly weak reasoning….
Jeffrey Chalmers,
They also always make sure to get a group of yes men around them to act as enforcers. JohnnyMac has bully Phil, celebrity lawyers, and other minions that think they have authority, but they’d be booted the moment they don’t bow down in the expected way.
I’ve always thought that’s one of the saddest things about this movement. A lot of these followers, particularly men, think they gain power by following, but really, they’re just lowly minions who’d be dumped the moment they become inconvenient. Most of them can’t hold a logical discussion or even speak from their own hearts and minds. They’re brainwashed robots expected to shut up and pay up.
Isn’t “Gnostic” Koine Greek for “He Who KNOWS Things”?
Ascot would probably insist that everyone EXCEPT Ascot is goin’ to hell.
What would these guys do if they couldn’t threaten with hell?
What would these guys do WITHOUT someone to hate?
Paging Fred Phelps…
Paging Fred Phelps…
Max,
Thank you so much for the (first) link (which led to more and more links….and some of those links opened my eyes in so many different ways).
Rather than list the ways my eyes were opened by following the chain of linked articles (which would take me forever), I will simply repeat myself, saying: “Thank you for providing the first link in a chain that helped open my eyes to things to which I cannot remember ever having been taught or exposed.”
Always pleased to learn that I helped lead someone to truth!
If nothing else, SBC’s Founders are certainly an entertaining bunch.
We need to be careful here in tarring the SBC regarding churches and the LGBTQ+ issue.
Many churches and denominations would have taken the same stand. That includes the LCMS.
I would pose a different question: if you know a church teaches a certain behavior is sinful (could be anything. abortion. divorce. gay sex. drinking caffeine (yep it exists). drinking alcohol. doing illegal drugs. women wearing pants. men wearing skirts. that was once an issue at a UMC church I knew. wearing eye shadow. buying life insurance. lying. stealing. whatever.
You engage in one of those behaviors? Why would you desire to be a part of that church or change it to your opinion on the matter? Why not find a better fit?
As to what kind of welcome would those who are part of the LBGTQ+ group find in the SBC? If the SBC is true to its stated and openly held understanding of the Bible, they should be treated as everyone else should be: sinners in need of a Savior.
And while it is extremely unpopular to even hold this thought today, the truth is that truth is not reached or determined by consensus in the Church. It is reached by revelation from God, and some issues truly are pretty clear. I as you may guess do not agree that this issue has long been debated and people disagree on the interpretations of scripture. Nope, I believe some accept the scripture and some twist and reject it.
But hold on: we do that with many things. Many don’t see drunkenness as sin, but rather as disease. I disagree while agreeing strongly that continued drunkenness causes biological addiction either for the drinker or their children. But the root was sin, not disease. Divorce is a sin–hold on again. When a victim divorces an abusive spouse I do not say the victim sinned. Rather, the abuser sinned causing the sin of divorce and that sin is on the abuser’s head. The Bible calls rebellion a sin, but we dress it up and glorify it in our music, our movies and tv shows, and our culture in general.
I’m not going to fault the SBC for ousting these churches. Instead, would to God the SBC, the UMC, the CotN, and many other denominations RETURN to calling sin what it is, sin and an affront to a Holy God, and call for repentance and a turning to God to be born again.
Because in the end, there will be no Baptists in heaven. Or Lutherans. Or Methodists. Or Nazarenes. Or any other group.
There will ONLY be those who truly repented of their sins and turned to Christ, trusting in His shed blood for the forgiveness of their sins.
The church growth movement and cheap grace have led us down this slippery path where now what matters is not repentance and faith, but “how will this make someone feel and if we call sin sin they will go elsewhere along with their dollars.”
Is Fred Phelps wrong in his bullying, unloving stance? Of course. No brainer. But so is the ELCA equally wrong on the other end of the spectrum.
The truth is in the middle: we are all born sinful. All of us are “born that way.” Pre newer versions it was clear “the sin is in the flesh.” Yep, we just inherit the tendency to sin. The sins I inherit a tendency to commit are not the same sins as the LBGTQ+ inherit the tendency to commit. And muddying the waters, we do know not everyone is born just biologically male or biologically female, and we must tread lightly and use compassion. For all of us. For those with messed up sexual genes, for those of us with messed up perception genes, for those like one of my kids with messed up perception, self control,anger, and mood genes.
But the call to all of us is the same: find out what sins your own messed up genes lead you to be more likely to commit. Repent of any sinful acts your tendencies have caused.
Trust in the forgiveness of God, and seek not to repeat the behaviors.
Because contrary to what Osteen wants you to think, Jesus did not die to bless every idea that pops into your noggin, or every action you desire to take. Or to make you healthy and wealthy. Or to make you feel welcome and happy.
Nope. He died to save your from your sins.
They’d probably pout in a corner somewhere.
When Harris and I stand before our Maker, Ascol won’t have an effin’ thing to say about our fates.
And that is really good news!
Muff Potter,
Great way of thinking about it! It is actually almost “comical” to think about…. If we all really believe in what we say we do, can you even imagine some of these “religious leaders” getting all “worked up” as we are all before the “great I am”… they are so “proud now”….
And we won’t stand before the Calvinist God; we will be judged by Holy God. Jesus will be our advocate, not Calvin or Ascol.
Max,
Excellent point…. nor the “key holders” from 9 Marxist fame… do they reall6 think G$d is going to be standing their with a clipboard and determining whether a person followed all of dear Mark Dever’s list??
Yes.
Q. Does the Bible teach that homosexuality is sin?
The upper crust of the SBC is TOTALLY out of touch with reality (nothing unusual there). No wonder they want to ‘cook the books’ to make their numbers look better!
“DUH” moment: Membership numbers are diminishing because newer pastors are abandoning those “superstitious altar calls” which allow people the opportunity to make a decision. You can thank former IMB president David Platt for that.
“DUH” again: Outreach is also suffering terribly because of the denomination’s shift into reformed theology where God allegedly has everyone already sized up, so reaching out is seemingly irrelevant now. Mixed into all of this is the fact that many of churches that went into lockdown have seen a sharp decline in attendance after re-opening. Our church is still at about 50% of the attendance from what it was a year ago.
Whether fear of COVID or frustration with the denomination, the SBC really needs to do some serious gut-checking and some genuine facetime before the Lord Jesus to get back on track!
New Calvinist icon Platt also said that a “sinner’s prayer” wasn’t Biblical. He went from making statements like that to President of SBC’s foreign mission program, where he promptly recalled 1,000 career missionaries and their families who had spent lifetimes leading people to Christ by leading them in sinner’s prayers and altar calls. Who let this guy in the door?!
That would require humility, prayer, repentance and seeking God’s face … but I don’t see much movement in that direction within SBC under the current NeoCal leadership.
linda,
“I’m not going to fault the SBC for ousting these churches.”
Nor will I. Not only can a church decide membership criteria (and I have been criticized on this forum for agreeing that a 9Marks church should remove members for whom they had ZERO contact info) so can denominations.
It’s not like there’s only one Baptist group out there. The two churches which were removed for being LGBTQ+ affirming can join the Alliance of Baptists which openly accepts homosexuals. The two which had sex predators on staff, they can join the IFB crowd and claim that their “persecution” led them to “repent” of being part of a denomination.
That is precisely nowhere in the Bible.
Solves a lot of issues.
Jesus recommended walking to the next town.
If you’re talking about Matthew 10, wouldn’t the equivalent be SBC pastors and leaders leaving the SBC because of its unrepentant sin? I don’t anticipate that happening.
The SBC is doing the equivalent of refusing to leave the town, and instead casting out the townsfolk. (That’s how I see it, anyway…)
Q. Hath Jesus said, Remember the… Supreme Court ruling?
Nah. We are a country which has liberated evil through the laws of the land. Jesus had nothing to do with it.
What an apt analogy! 🙂
(And an analogy which could be applied many other church organizations.)
Sure hope you will look into this false profit:
https://youtu.be/hiDpnkTQJUM
[MOD: OK. This is a perfect example of why we need an explanation of why we should allow a video to be posted. If you have specific point or points about a topic you want to make, make them. Videos should be referenced to supplement your points. We don’t want people to have to watch a video to even learn what your point is. GBTC]
Q. How is it possible to give money to religious 501c3 corporations that condone sin?
Southern Baptist officials sexually abused hundreds, reports reveal
About 700 victims were sexually abused, assaulted or raped by Southern Baptist Church leaders and volunteers across two decades, according to a six-month joint investigation by the Houston Chronicle and The San Antonio Express. The papers also detailed how church officials brushed aside repeated warnings of trouble. William Brangham talks to Robert Downen of the Houston Chronicle for more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud6PNsqcqKw
Q. Is the SBC now gonna kick out all SBC churches who’s congregations continue to condone and support pastors that habitually abuse their biblical calling?
You’ve asked a few of these open-ended questions, and you’ve got me thinking about things that were the law of the land, then were made illegal, then sometimes permitted again (Prohibition comes to mind). Slavery. Debtors’ prison. Women who asked to vote were imprisoned and force-fed raw eggs through a filthy rubber hose. The list goes on and on and on.
I was raised by people who absolutely detested gambling, which used to be against the law almost everywhere in the US. Now we have state lotteries and betting apps for phones. Christians today do not give a fig about gambling addiction.
So this law versus sin thing is not absolutely crystal clear. You might not agree with every social change, but do you really want to go back to a time when married women were not even allowed to hold a teaching job? When black people were passed down in wills, listed in inventory along with the tables and chairs? When divorce was well nigh impossible? When “no Irish need apply”?
This comment was not displaying when I wrote my comment above. Sexual abuse is both illegal and sinful. That should never change.
At times, though, church officials go out of their way to conflate homosexuality (a sexual orientation) with pedophilia and sexual abuse (criminal behavior). This conflation dehumanizes people in consensual adult non-heterosexual relationships.
Q. Is functioning outside of the provision of scripture a safe proposition?
Hmmm. Should I not give money to a person in need of food or medical attention because they might be in sin?
Should a missionary not give to a person in need because they are living in sin?
We might as well all stop giving since we all sin and fall short . . .
Bridget, …wherefore came this mad fellow to thee saying, Is there yet a watchman on the wall?