Runaway Star and a Black Hole’s Disappearing Act-NASA/JPL/Caltech
“This illustration shows a black hole surrounded by a disk of gas. In the left panel, a streak of debris falls toward the disk. In the right panel, the debris has dispersed some of the gas, causing the corona (the ball of white light above the black hole) to disappear.”
“Letting go doesn’t mean that you don’t care about someone anymore. It’s just realizing that the only person you really have control over is yourself.” ―
Many churches have instituted church covenants that do not allow people to leave their churches easily. I wrote this post to alert unsuspecting people about this practice. As always, I advise people to never sign one of these covenants. They are legal contracts but the prospective member is never told this fact. There are ways to get out of these signed contracts but it is better to never go there in the first place.
Should people who leave a church be pursued by their former church leaders?
Toni RIdgaway wrote Should We Pursue Those Leaving the Church? for the Church Leaders website.
A question was asked at Church Leaders.
The major problem and disappointment comes when the people who leave are dishonest with me and minimize the magnitude of their disagreement. Yet, they malign me to other members on their way out. Would you advise pursuing these members and lay leaders who are leaving our church or indicating they’re about to leave?
Ridgaway, a pastor, nails it in the following.
I’ve chosen a foundational principle that I build my life and leadership on: “I have to love people without needing them.”
Realize this: people who are talking about leaving your church for negative reasons will not be positive or supportive. As a result, they will make it their goal to influence other people to think and act negatively. So I don’t advise pursuing them or attempting to get them to stay. It won’t be positive for your church or for them. Instead, as pastors we must love them enough to let them go and find a church that lives up to their expectations. We must love them without needing them. When we need them, we compromise the good of the church to keep them.
The mistake the Ridgaway makes is this. He assumes that people who leave do so because they are just negative people. That is not the case for many people I have encountered in my blogging. Many of them just simply disagree with the trajectory of the church or the pastors. Many times they find the pastors to be unnecessarily harsh or self-absorbed and, in the majority of cases, I’ve found this assessment to be correct.
That being the case, Ridgaway makes an essential point that must be considered.
“I have to love people without needing them.”
What are the reasons why people leave their church?
Margaret Minnicks wrote Reasons Faithful Members Leave the Church? and has something to say.
- It is not a spur a moment decision.
People have reported that they have endured many months and even years of being dissatisfied before they made the ultimate decision to leave.
- It is usually about little things that add up over the years
The member more than likely is between a rock and a hard place. He is miserable and doesn’t foresee any changes in the future.
- She quotes a Bible verse, 2 Kings 7:3-4, as an example of some lepers who were just plain miserable. (PS They did survive.)
Four lepers who decided they were going to die if they stayed where they were. However, if they got up and left, at least they had a chance of survival.
She posted a chart that gives reasons why some people leave the church. Here are just a few.
Membership covenants are doctrinally unsound.
Tim Fall wrote The Problem with Church Membership Covenants – bad doctrine hurts God’s people
Under this New Covenant, God enables you to know him intimately.
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”(Jeremiah 31:33-34.)
This is the promise Jesus brought to reality through his death and resurrection. I imagine his friends couldn’t help but recognize Jeremiah’s prophecy when, the night before his death, Jesus said to them at the Passover dinner:
“This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.(Luke 22:20.)
This is the covenant God has with his people.
Here is his main point with which I agree.
Your covenant relationship is with God, not the body of Christ. Some local churches teach otherwise and even require their members to sign covenants full of obligations governing the conduct of the member. Their ecclesiology (that is, their doctrine of the church) is wrong* and it can turn the church into an idol that takes God’s place in a Christian’s life.
A typical covenant
Here is a typical membership covenant posted by Harvest Pointe Community Church in West Virginia. The lead teaching pastor is a graduate of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary which is a die-hard Calvinist Baptist seminary. The New Calvinist movement absolutely believes in the necessity of membership contracts. (One of these days I must write a post listing the names of seminaries that teach the need for membership covenants.) So, one can safely assume that they will be authority driven and could well use this contract to control their members. Their statement of beliefs strongly hints at this bent.
Digression alert: Folks, always check the website of churches prior to visiting. It can tell you a great deal about the church practices and beliefs. The one featured in this post is a good example of this. I know little about this church but their website tells me just about all I need to know. End Digression
There are other red flags on the website but, for the purposes of this post, I will focus on this line.
We will, when we move from this place, as soon as possible, unite with some other church where we can carry out the spirit of this covenant and the principles of God’s Word.
So what might that mean for you, dear reader? (I’m sounding more like Lady Whistledown by the moment.) Let’s take a look at the story of my co-editor Todd Wilhelm. He wrote me after leaving his 9Marks church due to a disagreement with them for their support of selling CJ Mahaney’s books. (This group loves Mahaney.) He did this as a conscientious stand against allegations of sex abuse in Sovereign Grace, something which did not appear to trouble UCCD. After he left, he decided to take his time joining another church. This 9Marks church, UCCD, put him on retroactive church discipline. It is called, euphemistically, the *Member Care List* which is 9 Marks BS speak for *You are in trouble and we are going to make you do what we told you to do in the covenant even though you want out. So suck it up.”
Soul Freedom/Freedom of Conscience versus Hyperauthoritarian Control
Pastors/church leaders: Leave people alone when they decide to leave. Any attempt to stop their leave-taking is downright wrong, no matter what your *contract* says. It is a sign of hyper-authoritarian control which speaks more to your own ego than it does for the spiritual well-being of the former member. To make matters worse, for you to dictate when they should join another church or even dictate what *kind* of the church, you are carrying your close-fisted *authority* beyond belief.
Todd told me he wanted to take his time joining another church since he had such a bad experience with UCCD/John Folmar. He had also been a member of a Sovereign Grace Church which was not a stellar experience. He knew, for sure, he wanted no part of either of those groups and finding a good church in Dubai is not a particularly easy task. It took me 2 years of attending my current Lutheran before I joined. I certainly didn’t want to run into another bad situation like the pedophile mess at a former Reformed Baptist church.
People leave churches for lots of reasons:
- They don’t like the doctrinal direction of the church (Calvinistas-take notice) Let them go.
- They don’t like the children’s programs and the adult studies. Let them go
- They don’t like you. Get over it and let them go.
- They don’t want to talk about it. Let them go.
- They are drifting from the faith and need time away, Let them go and do so in love.
- Send them a note of love and concern. If they don’t respond, let it go.
- They don’t join an *approved* church within your time allotment. Let them go.
- What if they are not sure they believe any longer? Let them go.
Oh, did I mention praying for them? How about speaking well of them to those left behind? Stop having meetings, coming up with ideas on how to harass them further. I know all about those tactics because for 12 years people have told me about them. One poor woman received 8 harassing phone calls in the span of two weeks.
Stop trying to control them. If you can’t let go, the problem is with you. Do you think that putting people into your church discipline program is going to make them want to stay in your controlling church? All you will do is give them things to talk about on Twitter or to me.
I know some funny stories of how people left 9Marks and Acts29 churches in unique ways in order to avoid church discipline. This includes the bastion of church discipline and membership legalities, Capitol Hill Baptist Church, from which the funniest story emerged but will be forever kept a secret except for a few who have asked for my help. So clever.
This all makes for some good laughs but can you imagine attending a church in which you fear leaving? What does that say about the church and the leaders? They are not viewed as role models of Jesus. Instead, they act like controlling jerks. There is nothing in Scripture that says “Once you’ve got them in your church, you get to abuse them if they no longer want to be in your church.” There is nothing in Scripture that says once you catch them, they are your property until you let them go.
Members are not your property. Remember that. God can take care of them without your bumbling efforts.
It’s time for churches that have strict covenants to take a hard look at themselves because, in the end, these are based on ego and control.
Dee Holmes called my attention to this video. Heavy Metal meets Mark Driscoll.
Thanks for the shoutout!
Impressively quick comment, Tim. Have a great weekend.
One thing I’ll say about the clergy in our church. They always seem happy to see or hear from any of us. We’ve belonged for many years now, and the welcome continues to deepen. This is a big part of the reason we are eager for the place to reopen after it’s safe for us to gather indoors again.
If we wanted to leave, they would know that’s our right. But why do churches try to keep unwilling members around? Why not just make the church a genuinely good and beneficial place?
“I wrote this post to alert unsuspecting people about this practice.”
It’s overreach. The church covenant.
What exactly does the “left behind” church DO to these people? They can’t physically force them to stay. How do they “enforce” the contract?
Making it good and beneficial figures to call for accountability, transparency, oversight, hard conversations — including potentially saying no to financial gains, pastoral control in all things “vision“, etc. That includes doing so in the midst of transitions, various challenges, and the insertion of agenda-driven wolves and hirelings.
It’s a lot easier to go into the default mode of exerting authority and power in such situation, especially with some problematic top-down structures being promoted as “biblical leadership“. Mix in those structures with the “church growth“ priorities, where a correlation to “fruit” for churches is often measured by attendance and receipts –- even if the accounting doesn’t factor in poaching from elsewhere existing churchgoers and/or offering Christian Industrial Complex creature comforts to keep the numbers high and “growing“.
In an age where there are not a lot of things to keep people in one place to support expensive salaries, buildings, and such “visions“, creating feelings of obligation and ties –– along with the potential for negative reinforcement — evidently fit in with the priorities of many. Can’t have those measurables heading in the wrong direction too easily or to the new exciting church “Plant“ across the highway that has the celeb teaching pastor du jour and a better selection of crullers and coffee.
What they use is intimidation, making people think that God Himself will come after them.
If you find yourself in such a church, where you likely won’t get a “letter of transfer” if you join elsewhere, nearly every church will accept a new member by statement of faith.
My friend and I joined or current church in such a manner (though it was more of the new church not realizing our old one is in the same denomination, because the old one uses a generic name while the new one has its denomination in its name).
Heh heh heh heh heh! Thanks for posting the Andre Antunes video. The guy has gotten quite a few new followers (including me) for his improvisational heavy metal riffs to preachers sounding off during the last three months. It was a great surprise to see him reach back into the Mark Driscoll vault and pull out that chestnut.
Oh yeah, “membership covenants”–don’t sign them, don’t stay at churches that require them. Just Don’t!
“Pastor Mark” at his most sleazy – would you buy a used car (or anything, at all) from this guy?
Come to think of it, his new business in AZ may be even sleazier.
Thanks for this reminder. If your church is headed in this direction, LEAVE, and don’t look back! Otherwise, you will have a world-o-hurt awaiting you! The church I grew up in just changed their constitution. I downloaded it and studied it, and yep, it looks like they have drunk the Calvinista Kool-Aid! It’s very sad to see them buy into this heavy-handed, elder-ruled type of government. It won’t work. Sheep CANNOT be driven like cattle. They must be LED by a good example! This is really what the nature of Hebrews 13:17 is about, rather than being used by many pastors as a ‘clobber verse’ to make folks ‘obey’ their leaders!
I don’t understand: how are these “legal contracts”? Where is the consideration? Are they enforceable by legal action? Can damages be recovered by a lawsuit after breach? They sound like nasty documents, but not legal contracts.
From what I read after leaving one of these places, the pastors that run them often tend to be psychologically messed up, and the people that choose to stay are in a codependent relationship with them, often by choice whether they realize what they’re doing or not. We were convinced that we would be torn limb from limb by the devil if we left- control by fear. To question leadership was to question God. “Touch not my anointed” became their ticket to a free ride with complete submission and no accountability. In there, they really didn’t NEED contracts!
Thank you for all your work with this kind of mess.
Am I alone in getting an “Alex Jones” vibe from that MD still?
One thing that always amazes me with this not wanting to let members leave or what some churches call “loving pursuit” is the hypocrisy of at least some that impose this rule.
One example I know about is Doug Phillips:
https://www.christianpost.com/news/doug-phillips-former-church-disappointed-with-his-disobedient-departure-as-elder-who-confessed-affair.html
Doug Phillips instituted a policy of not being able to leave but sadly when it came to him he didn’t follow this same policy. Rarely are rules leaders set up with this and church “discipline” ever applied to leader. Just look at how C.J. Mahaney was allowed to flee Covenant Life Church when his sin and hypocrisy was revealed.
Another article on Doug Phillips:
https://www.gospelherald.com/articles/51857/20140709/disgraced-religious-doug-phillips-unexpectedly-leaves-church-he-founded.htm
“Doug Phillips has left Boerne Christian Assembly and advised that he has become a member of another Church without a letter of transfer from Boerne Christian Assembly,” read the statement.”
Again do as I say vs. how I do.
There are all sorts of mistreatment that fall short of “criminal”, and I think that written promises to “hold harmless” or to resolve disputes through “alternate dispute resolution” mechanisms (mediation or arbitration, typically paid for by the stronger party and for that reason biased against the weaker) are in principle enforceable in civil court. What that would actually look like, I have no idea. What harm could the plaintiff claim to have suffered? Lost voluntary contributions? Emotional distress at having one’s authority defied? One could hope that such claims would be laughed out of court.
===
Dee — are there stories out there of what happens if a church actually tries to legally enforce one of these contracts using the legal means available? Or is it simply ongoing low-grade harassment on the part of the leaders toward the departed member?
I just left my elder-rule church and can’t thank Dee enough for the templates on this site for my termination-of-membership letter.
The problem is elder-rule church government. The massive problem inherent in this form of government is that the initial elders appoint themselves. Who else appoints them? From that point on the elders are a self-perpetuating group of interdependent leaders with no independent accountability. A perfect system for abuse of authority.
Church covenants attempt to provide a veneer of legitimacy to this form of government – covenants make each individual member who signs them complicit in their own subjugation. Of course, the members are never walked through the bylaws and the problems inherent in elder-rule government. Members are not given all the information needed to make an informed decision.
Never go to a church with an elder-rule government!
Smiting them with cancer, unemployment & ruin, the deaths of their spouse and children… All prepwork for that final motivational threat, Eternal Hell.
A God who is a Vengeful Egomaniac, always one Temper Tamtrum away from SMITE! SMITE! SMITE! — and Pastor is His Speshul Pet. (Sounds like that famous Twilight Zone “It’s a Good Life”, doesn’t it?)
Once you are catechized with a God like that, you will never completely break free of it.
They become the Highborn Aristocracy holding the whip over the Lowborn. (If not fawning Courtiers of His Majesty the Head Pastor.) Position, Prestige, Perks.
“I Got Mine,
I Got Mine,
I DON’T WANT A THING TO CHANGE
NOW THAT I GOT MINE!”
— Gleen Frey
The only difference is Bible Verses and God Talk.
“TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!”
Just like Jimmy Swaggart when he got caught with a prostie.
When his (alleged) denomination tried to discipline him for misconduct, GAWD Immediately Led Him to Plant a New Church and take all his followers (and their Tithes) with him.
This is so transparent and obvious to EVERYONE EXCEPT CHRISTIANS.
If this is the guy I think it is, my faves are the Kenneth Copeland “HAW! HAW! HAW!” and the Paula White “SMITE! AND SMITE! AND SMITE!” with the guy wandering back & forth in the background.
And I think the guy also does “Karens Gone Metal” as well.
(Doesn’t Isaiah say something about God doing the same thing to those who get too full of themselves? Something akin to pantsing them in front of everybody? If so, this guy is doing God’s Work WITH METAL.)
“Stop trying to control them. If you can’t let go, the problem is with you. Do you think that putting people into your church discipline program is going to make them want to stay in your controlling church?“
I’m not sure that getting folks to come back and stay is their goal… Seems like the goal might be more to send a message to current attendees who are thinking about leaving. Maybe more of a preemptive strike.
Bingo1
HereIStand,
Interesting that the angels told the shepherds, “Fear not, for we bring you tidings (news?) of great joy.”
“They Are All About Ego and Control”
It should not be a surprise to any of us that New Calvinist churches require membership covenants. There is a pandemic of “ego and control” in New Calvinism.
Readers, if you think this type of domineering behavior is in any way unique to the Young, Restless, Reformed (YRR) movement you are mistaken. I’m not sure anyone here totally thinks this – I just see a lot of comments connecting Calvinism to authoritarianism (which is valid for a while ‘nother set of reasons).
I left the Charismatic Movement for EXACTLY the same type of authoritarian and found my way to a YRR church because of MacArthur’s stance on Charismaticism. Once there I found very similar power and authority dynamics to those which I left behind. I also found out more about MacArthur’s authoritarian behavior.
Churches are full of naive people like me who don’t understand their identity in Christ and don’t understand they are not to submit themselves to self-appointed, unaccountable leaders. Thankfully, I’m learning and growing.
We all are Paul … none of us have “arrived.” I’m glad you found your way out of authoritarian churches and hope the best for you in the days ahead. Rest assured that Jesus also walks out of such places … where the teachings and traditions of mere men have usurped His authority.
Excellent way to put it, Paul! While congregational governance has its own set of problems, elder-rule polity can easily lead to abuse of authority. Within SBC, upward of 1000 new churches are planted each year – most are staffed by 20-30 year old “lead” pastors fresh out of seminary who appoint like-minded “elder” teams of same age. The lack of experience, coupled with spiritual immaturity and a new-found sense of control, is a set-up for abuse of authority.
Covid has forced to us stay home from church. Our church members rarely mask (we watch on facebook), best practices at communion are given a nod but not really done, and the singing continues unabated as well as loud preaching. (I am Lutheran. There is a Lutheran parody on youtube that slams people who point out unsafe practices. Makes me ashamed to be Lutheran.)
It has reminded me that I cannot find the modern church in my Bible. Anywhere.
How can one be “absent from communion” if they share a meal, over prayer remembering the sacrifice of Jesus, with their family? Why is singing in church more holy than singing on your front porch in a neighborhood singalong of hymns? How is worship in church with stained glass holy, and having a glass of iced tea on the back porch with the songbirds singing while you pray and listen to Jesus, and just hang out with Him not holy? How is “preaching the Word” holy and requiring ordination but sharing Christ across the back yard fence with a hurting neighbor is not “real preaching” even if that other person winds up born again from the encounter? How come it is Ministry if a church organizes a homeless shelter and lines folks up to serve, but you have failed to serve if all you did was take in a couch surfing nephew and feed and clothe him until he gets his act back together?
We used to live in a town with a large, mostly criminal and drug infested homeless population. But if you spent 30 minutes over coffee at McD’s you would witness, and maybe receive, some truly unselfish Ministry. I’ve watched the literally starving break off a small bit of burger, keep it, and offer the bigger part to another homeless person. I’ve watched the homeless pool their tiny amounts of change and trust one of them to hike to Safeway, half a mile away, to buy crayons and coloring books and trinket toys for stranded due to weather train passenger families. I’ve known where one church person would go there and chat with the staff. Imagine the joy when I heard one of those staff go up to the person, and tell the church person “I know Jesus now. I repented and He saved me. Thank you for listening to me.”
And that isn’t CHURCH?
You bet it is.
And when we can be safely back in a brick and mortar one, I will be there with bells on.
But I won’t kid myself that Church always happens in a church building. No sirree, sometimes that is the last place you will find the Church.
Friend,
I think it boils down to ego and control.
Elizabeth Zirkle,
Many folks have told me that they are shunned by former *friends.*
JDV,
I will be curious to see the stats once the pandemic is under control. How many people have left and substituted sermon videos for churches that have become more controlling? I predict a plethora of TGC articles on *how to draw people back to church.”
Mark R,
I really liked your comment. The *no letter of transfer* threat has diminished with churches allowing people to join via statement of faith. I attended, for a short time, a church which didn’t believe in membership at all. I left before they changed that. I told my current pastors about that conundrum and they allowed us to join anyway.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
I rreally liked this video. I laughed and laughed. Best thing that has ever happened to Driscoll rants! You’re the best!
I pray he doesn’t get the slews of young pastors from TGC and Acts 29 and Desiring God (John Piper). who looooooved him and now pretend they didn’t.
Some churches govern themselves as official members vote in elections which can be held on any decision. They need to be able to tell the difference between a voting member and a regular attendee or any other non-member and for this purpose this is often a formal process of applying for membership and an agreement that the member signs. One should always read any such agreement carefully and add text to the agreement if needed. In the US, all such agreements are voluntary and can always be terminated by any party voluntarily by informing the other parties. To be strictly legit, this should be in writing and one should ensure that delivery had been made.
Reminder: when Driscoll moved into his church building in Arizona he boasted about it having such “a rich past”:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160601010950/http://thetrinitychurch.com/the-trinity-church-welcomes-you-to-our-easter-open-house-2/
“Our New Church Family Has an Old Church Home! A church building with a rich past”…the Glass and Garden Church was designed “in the mid-century modern style of famed architect Frank Lloyd Wright.”
But the reason the building was vacant and available for Driscoll was because the former congregation there had itself been decimated by the misdeeds of another corrupt pastor:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2006/09/30/thou-shalt-not-steal-from-fellow-congregants/de3d5737-a3ed-4ac9-8e48-c8676889934c/
“A few months after a Scottsdale, Ariz., pastor delivered a sermon excoriating the justice system for leniency with thieves, he was arrested and charged with stealing almost $80,000 from his Glass and Garden Community Church congregation.”
… and with regard to the ministry of Jesus and his followers in the NT, makes sense. Makes sense regarding the God-fearers in the OT, too.
Makes sense.
Sounds like Driscoll’s “rich past” … and it could be that Driscoll was thinking there was “rich” potential there, more than “past”
Better yet – DO NOT (no, not ever) sign a church membership covenant. The only covenant a believer needs is the one written in red. A church membership contract is not required to be a member of the Body of Christ. These things are normally one-sided to benefit/protect church leaders.
Try telling that to the 9Marxists who discipline church members for questioning pulpit preaching/teaching, or try to sever ties with their church by simply walking away. The new reformers excommunicate them even after they are gone, in addition to shunning them in the community! What a loving bunch … not.
These are absolutely huge problems within that movement. And because many of these elders are not, in fact, elders, who have earned their place through wisdom or long life experience, they get really mad when they can’t maintain control over someone. As we’ve seen before, it ends up in harassment, shunning, and even lawsuits. This movement attracts immature and often very self-centered men who view the theology as a way for them to control their tiny kingdoms and those who get caught within them.
I will point out that some churches do claim covenants retroactively without signatures, once they have “taken over” a church. This happened in a church I attended. They claimed that members were covenanted simply because they were already members and the reading of the covenant in church was all that was needed to enact the covenant. Note that the members did not vote on the change in theology or the change to covenants and elders, only on a senior pastor who lied about his beliefs in the search process. I’m sure they have used other ways as well, because their “ends justifies the means” beliefs usually do not care all that much about consent.
Well, they don’t read or teach much about Jesus, so doubt they’d pay attention to that. Jesus was real big on letting people choose for themselves what they would do, with little pressure, and they don’t much like that methodology, either.
One thing to note about leaders in that movement is that they don’t much like being told what to do by each other, either, which is why many of their churches have one leader with a bunch of yes men minions as elders. And they feel free to go and tour around without meeting in their church building. Lots of conferences and sabbaticals (usually paid by the church). They often don’t apply their own rules to themselves, because they are so “special”.
I wanted to pull this out, because I’ve seen two tactics. One is that they are super-detailed to the point of it becoming some secret society with special membership that takes a lot of time and effort to obtain. Often, rewards are promised like potential for leadership or country-club like services, For example, one church I know about makes potential members write and rewrite their “testimony” and they are often declined 2, 5, even 10 times before they let someone give it on the day they are accepted. I also suspect they let someone in faster if they have a lot of financial resources or famous connections.
The other, and more common tactic, is the super vague covenant. “Respect the elders” was a line in John Piper’s former church covenant, but you know the unspoken rules about elders’ jobs and members actions that might offend the elders went far beyond that phrase. Someone might read “respect the elders” and think that means they can leave when they want or ask complicated questions in group settings that question anything about the theology, when that is definitely not acceptable to the church. I’ve been harassed by New Calvinist baby pastors at seminary for simply refusing to agree with everything they’ve said, even though we didn’t go to the same church. I’ve noticed a lot of the stories about people trying to leave their churches on TWW fall into this category, where a simple question can turn into a huge drama and result in church discipline, such as what happened with Todd Wilhelm.
ishy,
I don’t think elders “earn” their position. I think legitimate elders are appointed to their position after meeting the qualifications described in scripture and any additional requirements of a denominational or congregational authority. Then, these elders are required to meet these standards continually or face correction and/or termination by their appointing authority. Authority can’t be “earned”; it must be given.
I’m not correcting you. It’s just that I’ve thought about this so much, and one common misconception regarding authority is that we can earn it. Appointing authorities certainly must have a good reason to appoint people, to give them authority, but it’s not the same as “earning” it. A small distinction, but I think it makes a big difference.
Well, I don’t actually believe elders (or pastors) should have authority “above” others at all. So I should clarify that. I think they can impart knowledge or wisdom, but that the church should make decisions together (such as by voting). As I said in the other post, Jesus never pressured people to follow him or do what he said beyond asking them. Each person retained the authority to make decisions for themselves.
I also no longer believe in local church membership at all and I find little to support it in the Bible. Most heavy-handed church membership is based on the idea that members cannot make decisions for themselves or that church membership somehow “proves” election, both of which are signs of a cult movement.
No church needs a contract or signed agreement to determine who is a member.
Our church has a membership roll, a record of the date when we joined. Children of members become voting members at a certain age (teens) without taking deliberate action. When we have elections for some volunteer positions, a ballot for each member is mailed to the home address. This encourages participation.
When we have voice votes at annual meetings, nobody runs around trying to separate regular attenders from members.
They trust us.
Donald Johnson,
My reply has to be inspected by Dee’s venerable pug patrol. I’m totally sure it will be worth the wait… 😉
Such belief can only exist where Biblical truths of soul competency and priesthood of ‘the’ believer are not proclaimed. You will not find those doctrines embedded in New Calvinism or other religious sects which seek control over the pew, rather than ministry to them in Jesus’ name. Only Jesus should have authority over the Body of Christ and that is waning in the American church.
Julie Roys just got doxed by J Mac’s right hand man. “Doxing is illegal in California and punishable up to one year in jail or a fine of $1,000.” I hope Roy’s follows through all the way on this…
https://julieroys.com/director-of-john-macarthurs-broadcast-ministry-doxes-julie-roys-defends-it/
Are you sure about this number of “new churches.” I thought at least in the USA that the number of churches were decreasing. With that climate it is hard to believe that it would be possible at least in the US to start up 1,000 new churches in one denomination.
What I find interesting is the ultimate check and balance to elder leadership or for that any matter of church government is the ability of members to as they say “vote with their feet” and leave. This would include no longer contributing.
Not allowing people to leave is one way to try and remove this ultimate check/balance with members.
Steve240,
Imagine how abusive an environment must be that it’s members are so powerless to affect change their only option to ensure their safety is leaving?
A member of my extended family has been a Lutheran minister his entire career. His denomination has allowed him multiple avenues through which to affect change – multiple levels of authority to which to appeal. Until positive change is rejected at the very top of an organization there is always hope for change. Elder-rule churches allow one method for positive change: bring up the issue to the elders and hope they allow you to implement your ideas. If they don’t, you’re out of luck. I tried this with something as important as a children’s church bathroom procedure that would allow children alone in restrooms with male teachers. Change was resisted by the leadership, and there was no one to whom to appeal.
People always talk about how they’re going to move to Canada if so-and-so gets elected, but the vast majority never do. Why? Because in America we have the ability to affect change with our vote. There’s hope! In North Korea and other similar authoritarian dictatorships the only option is to escape.
If the only option in a church is to escape, what kind of place is that?
SBC’s goal is to plant 1200 churches per year. Last time I looked, they had planted about 600 in 2020 – I suspect the pandemic slowed the New Calvinists down in this regard.
https://lifewayresearch.com/2018/09/19/what-will-it-take-to-plant-1200-churches-per-year/
“Southern Baptists need to plant 1,200 churches a year just to offset the 900 churches that close each year and to keep pace with the increase in population” (Kevin Ezell, President, SBC North American Mission Board)
Kind of missing the point, as in John 1, where “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him was Life, and that Life was the Light for all, everyone. The Light shines in the dark and the dark does not comprehend it…”
… continues about John, who came from God, sent by God.
Later … “And of His fulness we have all received, with grace upon grace upon grace … infinite grace …” (BTW, not cheap “grace”).
Walk. No, run. Away. To higher ground.
Rick Steves is Lutheran, as in Rick Steves’ Europe. Nice travel guides and youtube videos.
Elizabeth Zirkle,
Yes, this is quite common with the Calvinistas. Not speaking to you at work, turning the other way when you see them at a store, their children won’t play with your children, etc. … all because you left their crummy authoritarian church! This practice in New Calvinism is analogous to being snubbed by the who’s-who in high school. It has nothing to do with real Christianity.
Max,
Ghosted. Cancelled. Happened in churches long B4 our beloved Calvincultists. ‘Cuz one does not tow the company line, as in “church” protocols, which actually may have nothing to do with God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit.
-Interracial dating.
-Invite a woman to preach.
-Church split over the new red hymnal. “Commie color!”
-Report youth pastor’s aggressions with the girls. (“Sluts! – not his fault!”
-Women bruised from DV asking for advocacy.
-Vote for a woman & admit it.
Etc.
Jesus had similar issues. John 6 & Mark 14, for example, when they fled.
A friend took her parents to eat falafels in pita sandwiches and her father was enraged that his daughter expected him to eat “Muslim” or IOW pagan food. My friend told her fundamental religious dad that this is closer to what JESUS ate instead of burgers and fries.
Yeah, well, it’s pretty obvious to me why. Jesus’ methodology is completely contrary to theirs. Their erasure of Jesus is by intention, because what Jesus does would make their followers question how they do things. Jesus never pressured people; he just made statements and asked questions. He amassed followers but didn’t make any of them sign covenants to follow him. He treated non-Christians with compassion, something I have never seen from a hypercalvinist. I have been lectured by a few of them on how if I don’t go along I deserve to be treated badly by them because God hates me.
Which is why I don’t really believe the movement is really about theology or the Bible. There are true believers, even among the leaders, but some of their most prominent leaders often change messaging completely depending on their audience, which tells me they personally don’t have solid theological beliefs. It may even be a total scam for some (James Macdonald comes to mind). They use what they think is most effective in getting them followers, fame, fortune, etc.
Quantity, quantity, quantity. All about the measurable$ and keeping pace on the brick and mortar side — and finding paying positions (of authority, too boot) for products of cooperative program seminaries finely-honed on the ways, marks and priorities of Mohler etc. (conveniently setting them up to vote and support the denominational leadership and parachurch structures), perhaps?
And you’ve gotta study up on those demographics, just like the “long game” spoken of by Zack Randles where he “pulled up the census.gov stats” and landed in a rapidly developing and gentrifying “target zone” (with Thabiti Anyabwile “planting” on the less gentrified side of the river — but which was also financially developing in a significant way). Priorities…
https://www.churchplantingpodcast.org/new-city-network/zack-randles-hustle-in-church-planting-part-1
Paul I basically agree with you. Leaders should be open to criticism and should be leading how God directs and not the whims of the leaders. It is disappointing when in some places their response to criticism is suggesting that you attend somewhere else.
Sadly the only way to get leadership’s attention is when a number of people leave.
That said,
ishy,
I had an elder sign my termination letter before I explained the reason I was leaving. I even included a short phrase in the letter saying I wasn’t under church discipline. They thought my reasons for leaving (self-appointed leadership with no independent accountability) were not valid, but they had already signed the letter! What a great feeling to know they couldn’t point to my signature on the membership covenant anymore as a reason they could exercise authority over me.
SBC’s New Calvinist elite need the brick and mortar side to finance the Calvinization of the denomination … even though the non-Calvinist majority in the pew never asked to go there! Mohler and the Mohlerites need millions of gullible non-Calvinist members tossing hard-earned dollars into the offering plates to pull off the NeoCal takeover. They know that the average Southern Baptist doesn’t give a big whoop about things like “theology” as long as you don’t mess with their potluck dinners. It’s the darnedest thing I’ve ever seen!
Good.
We live in a democracy with freedom of speech and movement and joining or not joining a non-profit (church), etc., among other things.
Adults voluntarily signing their lives/families/agency away to a totalitarian system (which silences women & children & all communication “they” don’t like, among other things) – in the name of God BTW – is complete misinformation or fake news about fellowship with God and His followers.
Apparently the religious elite or scribes and Pharisees did the same in Jesus’ day EXCEPT the Jews were not living in a democracy with social media and freedom of speech to boot. Jesus came to set them free, not from oppressive civil systems. Jesus set them free to live for God alone in a spiritual & personal sense. Jesus restored agency in terms of sin, our flesh, & demonic forces.
We can own this agency today, too. So, why are people subverting their civil agency to these strongmen church leaders (while living in a democracy)? Is it trickery- they don’t see the con?
Do other democracies around the world have little totalitarian church dynasties set up by strongmen leaders that free people voluntarily embrace? Curious. From a civil & civic point of view, this is awful.
Agreed. This not a New Calvinist phenomenon. The Christian Industrial Complex has been out and about for years to cancel anything that doesn’t agree with their particular flavor of doing church. Jesus prayed that they would be one, but they don’t want to be.
As long as there is church, there will be fake church. NT Jesus warns us. The OT warns of fake prophets, evil shepherds, & wayward kings. Cons, criminals, posers, predators. It behooves adults to do their adulting and learn to tell the difference or they, unfortunately, will suffer the consequences, in this world & even worse, in the next.
Calvin and Calvinistas are not in the Bible. Neither is Luther of any of the Graham family, good & otherwise. However, waywards & slaggards & irrationals are described, as well as the good guys.
“When someone is being irrational, they don’t listen to reason, logic, or even common sense. They are laser focused to fulfill a need. And until that need is fulfilled, or they snap out of it, the irrational person can be unpredictable and sometimes even dangerous.”
It then behooves the pew to pray for discernment to detect legitimate vs. illegitimate authority in the pulpit. Sometimes discernment is simple observation. When a preacher doesn’t preach much about Jesus (e.g., New Calvinism), it’s clear the Jesus has little influence in that church … and, thus, an illegitimate authority is in place. When Calvin or Piper or other NeoCal icon are mentioned more than Jesus in a sermon, the church is off-track.
“For this reason, God has highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow in submission, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess and openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” (Philippians 2:8-11)
If that’s not happening every Sunday, such church is not ‘the’ Church … an illegitimate authority has set up camp and it ain’t holy.
I dunno if it’s demons or brainwashing or mental illness, or maybe different reasons for different people, but I’ve seen people about face into that group like they met someone that morning and fell in love at first sight. And what they become is truly scary.
There were guys I avoided at seminary and former churches because they couldn’t hold a reasonable conversation about anything without long quotes by Piper or Grudem or another leader in that group. You could be talking about where to go for lunch and get a three-hour response of Piper quotes. No discussion could be had without them talking about how wonderful the theology was and how unbiblical everybody else was or why weren’t you going to their so-much-better-than-yours church.
Most cults encourage members to be much more subtle, but the New Calvinists will bash you over the face over and over from the first day and it never gets better.
Ava–lol thank you re Rick Steves. Enjoy his videos immensely, did not know he is Lutheran. My reference to the Lutheran Sarcasm video is just that I hate to see anyone go down that road, making fun of people for taking the pandemic seriously and adjusting lifestyles accordingly.
Perfect rejoinder!
Wish I coulda’ seen dear old dad’s face at that one.
Much of Christianity was formulated during the days of kings, princes, and other absolute autocrats. So it’s no wonder that in some Christian circles there exists a genuine struggle with The Enlightenment and The Rights of Man.
Allegedly, and under Reformed* ideals, you (generic you) have no rights because of your completely sinful state.
* not just reformed ideology, you’ll find the same mindset in arminian circles too.
Muff Potter,
And, one could argue that “The Enlightenment” is based on “Christian” principles… one could also argue that the current rise of “Christian Nationalism” is not very “Christian”… NOTE… I use the phrase “ one could argue”…. nor trying to pick a fight here…
Sounds like the Second Level Proud Boyz initiation/hazing rite, where the 1st-level Proud Boy trying to level up has to recite the names of five breakfast cereals while being repeatedly punched in the face.
Also explains why when they get political, Christians are such suckers for Strongman Dictator types.
I just ate and you’re making me hungry!
Shawarma… Hummus… Olives… Tabouli… Pita bread still hot from the oven…
i.e. Reciting their Inerrant SCRIPTURE(TM) without activating any neuron above the brainstem.
In modern America, shunning by *friends* is really the only effective stick 9Marxists carry. They could bad-mouth the excommunicated to prospective new pastors, but this can backfire. BTW, did you see 9Marx’s episodes 149 and 150 from Oct and Nov about how CHBC disciplined 256 *members* for the unpardonable sin of not attending? https://www.9marks.org/pastors-talk/episode-149-on-cleaning-the-membership-rolls-part-1-with-matt-schmucker/
I found it while searching for my all-time favorite 9Marx quote. Really worth the hour to listen and worth an OP or 2. Satanic to the core, to borrow from one of JimmyMac’s former elders. There’s also a CT article, but you need a subscription. Anyway, in the hour they never mention any practical things they did to punish the disciplined majority. Nor do they mention the word “excommunication”.
Oh — just for fun, here’s the favorite quote I was looking for, by Matt Schmucker:
“ Let’s start from the outside and work in:
1) Members who are dead. (At my church we found 10!) This outer-most ring should be the easiest to clean up. At you church’s next meeting for conducting business, put these names before the congregation with a motion to remove them from membership in the following meeting. Don’t ask the congregation to immediately remove these names, but give them time to think about the motion.”
(This means at CHBC, members will have 2 months to mull it over before deciding whether to just remove dead members from the rolls, or possibly discipline them for non-attendance.)
You pulled a “Radar and Colonel Blake” to get away without reprisals.
(Reichsminiter Speer did the same trick to get the Fuehrerbefehl scorched-earth extermination order for all German civilians countermanded during the last days in the Berlin Bunker.)
THIS IS WHY YOU SHOULD ALWAYS HAVE SOCIAL CONNECTIONS OUTSIDE OF CHURCH! SO THEY CAN’T ISOLATE YOU COMPLETELY!
That’s pulled by butt out of the fire twice; once with a Shepherding Fellowship(TM) in the Seventies and once with a controlling “friend” who turned out to be using me in the Nineties.
AND IS WHY THESE TYPE OF CHURCHES DEMAND TOTAL 24/7 COMMITMENT AND STEER YOU INTO THEIR IN-CHURCH KNOCKOFFS OF EVERYTHING YOU COULD POSSIBLY DO. SO THAT YOU NEVER HAVE TO ASSOCIATE WITH “THOSE HEATHENS” WHO WILL DRAG YOU DOWN.
The New Calvinists probably excommunicate some folks long after they are in Heaven.
I think it’s a culture. It’s the water they swim in. They don’t know anything different. They are indoctrinated, not educated. I think that’s why kindness and patience are called for. Who knows what types of things I believe or behaviors I engage in that may not be explicitly sinful but are not in line with Christlikeness? Plus, I definitely am aware of my sinful nature as well…and probably not as aware as I should be.
I agree, arguments can be made either way.
Agreed, and it depends entirely on who you read or what speaker you listen to.
My personal opinion?
Christian Nationalism is just a front for yet another form of domestic facism.
We’ve had them before, and they fade away of their own accord.
We Americans do not take kindly to being micro-managed by a would be leadership which insists that it’s for our ‘own good’.
Hmm, a lot of churches KNOW when people die because the pastors and other members help the family, or the family at least notifies them. There’s also this thing called a necrology, a list of all who have died in the past year. In some churches it is read during worship on All Saints Day or All Saints Sunday.
I know, I’m spoiling it all by pointing out another Wheel Previously Invented.
And yes, admittedly, doing something about the dead anytime near Halloween is very bad indeed, for it might remind people that Halloween is an old Christian holiday called All Hallows’ Eve, with pre-Christian roots, and NONE of this has anything at all to do with Stan.
/rant 😉
Yes, that’s the sad thing about the New Calvinist movement. Thousands of young pastors have been indoctrinated with aberrant faith. They have a passion, but it is a misplaced passion. What a loss to the Church … wasted potential. When they journey down that road, they may never come back. When I try to lead one out of the mess, they immediately start debating points they have been indoctrinated with. The new reformers really believe they alone hold truth and have been called into the world for such a time as this to restore the “gospel” that the rest of the church has lost. But, it’s a gospel that is not ‘the’ Gospel. Sad, extremely sad.
Friend,
Years ago, recently back from a tour of duty as a missionary in South America, I helped with an AWANA group at my church. They wanted to “rescue” Halloween by turning it into a day to remember people who had died in a positive way. I made a comment that they might get more than they asked for, and they did. All the Catholic kids who came knelt to pray for their dead grandparents! The following year, we went back to the harvest fair.
When you are surrounded by people that are all agreeing to this and there is a culture where questioning things is considered “gossip” it is a lot easier to go along with this. Terms to think of are “group think” and the famous Asch line test.
Good point. My recommendation to anyone leaving a church that is like this with all of your social connections there etc. is to start developing connections outside of that group before you leave if possible. Then it won’t be as hard on you when you leave.
One thing that I find shocking is that when church’s impose church “discipline” as declared by church leadership is that the members who blindly accept this aren’t following Proverbs 18:17 that states “In a lawsuit the first to speak seems right, until someone comes forward and cross-examines.” The members depend only on what the church leaders are saying vs. hearing both sides.
Ironically these same church leaders who demand that only their side be heard will quote this same passage when a church leader is accused of something. Interesting how they state this passage in proverbs only applies in some cases.
in 9Markism handbook “The Compelling Community” authored by Mark Dever and his fellow CHBC Elder, Jamie Dunlop:
https://books.google.com/books?id=wCrtBgAAQBAJ&pg=PT36
“Formalized Commitment…church discipline…formality is generally invisible when things go well. When an auto manufacturer and its supplier get along and sales are flowing in, the contract gathers dust in a filing cabinet. But the moment a disagreement occurs, the formal contract takes center stage.”
By the way, seems Capitol Hill Baptist congregants are now trekking to Maryland for the weekly non-livestreamed-on-principle service, held Sunday nights at 5 inside the huge auditorium of Riverdale Baptist Church of Upper Marlboro [Baptist Bible Fellowship (Independent Fundamentalist)]
The other CHBC services are livestreamed, including on Sunday morning now! (since usual Sunday AM and PM services are now swapped)
https://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/
In an Elder-Rule church government, any and all problems related to how the church functions can only be taken to the elders. If they don’t care, or disagree with you, where can you go? Nowhere. No one else has any authority. So taking your questions and concerns to anyone else in the church IS kind of like gossiping in a twisted sense. You could get the entire membership to agree with you and they would have no authority to make changes.
What a weird system. Any problems brought to the elders will be seen by the elders as criticism of them (because they make all the decisions), so there will instantly be a tendency for the elders to become defensive. It’s a lose-lose for the elders and members.
Linn,
Awesome story. Thanks for sharing!
Which is why the flourishing of control freak preachers in our democratic free society is an enigma.
Mind control. Paul taught “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus” … but this is not the mind that is much of the organized church in America. It is a religious mind controlled by teachings and traditions of men and the spirit of this world. That’s why John instructed “Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God.” There is a battle raging for the minds of church folks … a battle that is being lost in many churches.
So it’s about caring more about the branding than about real peoples’ actual lives… (?)
Yes. Yum.
“I urge you friends, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy, and acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service of worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.” Romans 12.1-2
You who study Greek can decipher the essence of “be transformed by the renewing of your mind,” but personally, I’ve taken it to mean stick to the Word of God (the Bible as a whole, not cherry-picking verses) over & above men’s teachings…
… like 18 Spiritual Gifts of the Holy Spirit (Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4) divided among all believers, where discernment is HS given & on equal footing with pastoring. (Preaching is not one of the gifts.)
It really is an enigma.
Why do otherwise rational and intelligent adults (in a free and democratic society) willingly put themselves under such men?
I have no answer, it beggars the mind, it really does.
Exactly. Like the women who loved Mussolini. Ruth Ben-Ghiat researches/writes about the strongmen. Nina Burleigh researches/writes about the women who love them.
In the case of the church, it’s like the bride of Christ has run off with a … really abusive guy instead of being the bride of our risen Christ as God has meant us to be.
OT, so we’re the only ones not watching the Super Bowl? Our kids watch … so there’s that. Snacks provided. Job done. Nothing against football. Doing other things. 🙂
This is that guy. The Paula White video was *inspired*, I’m telling you. Especially the intro.
Here are some other reasons:
1) The church has an “inner circle”. Especially true of large churches. Only a select group of people can meet with the pastors, sing in the church, be on the board of elders, etc. These people all are from the same set of families who are close to the pastor (usually from the beginning of the church)
2) After many years, no one has ever met with the family (I was in a church for 13 years that had 17 pastoral staff and many elders. Never once did one come to talk with me.)
3) The church has decided to pick music that aims at only the younger members of the congregation. (one church I was had cranked the music so loud it was measured by a friend at over 70 decibels). It was actually damaging to the ears!
4) The pastors obviously spent very little time on their sermons. One pastor used to make up his sermon from reading the NYT that morning. Another like to recycle his sermons every year. I have very seldom actually heard sermons where the pastor spent any time on them. I spent more time researching before teaching a Bible Study when i was in rotation.
5) The finances were secret
6) Groups in the church decided to berate people that didn’t believe some of their weird theories (6,000 year old earth, for example)
7) Pastors had obviously never had a real job. They believe all the grunt work in the church should be done by those with 80hr/week jobs. They are paid to pastor the church but a) never do visitation b) are put out if they have to do 2 sermons a week (note they would be repeating the same sermon twice.)
I could go on and on….
Dave,
Definitely need to find another church…. while mine have had their “issues” over the years, none were that bad…. to me, the secrete budget is the deal breaker.. no way will I give money to an outfit that will not tell me how they are spending it..
And a key to pew peons “ freedom” from these controlling clowns? Christ told the thief on the cross he will be with him in paradise… i.e. you do not need to be a “member in good standing” with these “pseudo churches”…
Erich Fromm (German psychoanalyst) has a great answer: modern man feels lonely, powerless and insignificant due to changes in religious, economic, and political systems from the Medieval Age to the Modern. In order to combat this overwhelming anxiety he finds a man (or god) to which he can totally submit in the hope that by subjugating his will to this man, this man’s perceived power and significance will, in part, transfer to him. People look at a person like John MacArthur and think,”What a great man! If I follow him completely I will partake in the greatness, power, significance, and community that seem to embody him.” You can see this kind of blind loyalty in the comments section in the Julie Roys article about MacArthur’s finances. People aren’t really defending MacArthur: they’re defending their own deepest identities, which have become entwined with MacArthur. Exhibit A is Phil Johnson; he seems to have become almost completely subjugated and subsumed by MacArthur.
I think that for Christians we find relief from feelings of loneliness, powerless, and insignificance in Christ and in communities that worship him. One of the biggest helps I’ve experienced is knowing that Christ remembers and rewards even a cup of cold water given to a child. That is an antidote to insignificance.
Yes, most churches at least provide a refuge from those emotions. However, much of the church in America has become a substitute for those who find their identity in an organization rather than in Christ. That’s why it’s easy to ensnare folks with teachings and traditions of men without the individual truly developing a relationship with Jesus. While they are certainly not all this way (depending on leadership), many churches are “religious” but spiritually destitute. Scripture calls us to community and fellowship with other believers, but at the end of the day we must all dig our own spiritual well.
Not just Mussolini.
Hitler also got a lot of “OOOOOO! MY SOULMATE!” mash notes from groupies. Someone told me once there was a special unit of the SS to track them down and check whether they were a serious threat.
I don’t know the formal name for the psych condition, but the name I know it by is “Harley Quinn Syndrome”. They type example of Harley Quinn Syndrome are serial killer groupies (like the Harley Quinn who prison-married her Joker, the Night Stalker).
Dave,
Dave, what you’ve described is not the Church of the Living God. It is a counterfeit representation of it. Move on, shake the dust off your feet, don’t look back. Unfortunately, I can’t advise you where to move to … much of the institutional church in America looks like the one you are in. The Lord Jesus needs to do some house cleaning. I have a feeling that a day of reckoning is just around the corner.
Isn’t that the rationale behind All Saints’ Day?
And All Souls’ Day?
It went ROMISH!
“NO POPERY! NO POPERY! NO POPERY!”
“Beware the Temptation of the ‘Inner Ring’” (C.S. Lewis)
https://tifwe.org/c-s-lewis-beware-the-temptation-of-the-inner-ring/
So were the Young Communist League, the Khmer Rouge, and the Taliban.
Like Moonie Thoughtstoppers!
Recited without engaging any neuron above the brainstem.
doubleplusgoodthink INGSOC,
doubleplusbellyfeel INGSOC,
doubleplusduckspeak INGSOC!
NOT “an old Christian holiday”, a ROMANIST holiday.
And REAL Christians have to reinvent the wheel because NO POPERY!
And reinvent the wheel,
and reinvent the wheel,
and reinvent the wheel…
God is sooooo Lucky to have them.
Rank Hath Its Privileges.
“All Animals are Equal —
But some are More Equal than others.”
— George Orwell, Animal Farm
Paul K,
Best answer I’ve heard yet.
To use a loose metaphor, now I have a crevice or two in which to drive pitons for ropes on an otherwise slippery rock face.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
One of the greatest lines in political satire genera
Max,
Thanks – I did move on. However, my description is based on a collage of many churches I have attended over the years. The last one I attended for a while had all of those characteristics, though. It also had one Sunday School which was a group of real Christians. Although we have all left that church, we still meet for Bible study.
BTW – Dee was in that Sunday School as well -helped lead it.
Frankly, I think no one should be “ordained” until they have spent at least 10 years at a ‘real’ job. Certainly 20-somethings are not what could be described as an elder.
Also – why are sermons always aimed at the lowest common denominator?
I had a pastor in Grad school who gave GREAT sermons. It has been probably 40 years since I heard a Great sermon.
I get your point, but this depends on the type of training and the individual. I’ve known a couple of brilliant young pastors who had enough life experience, ability to listen, and formal education to help lead a congregation.
I’ve also known a pastor with nothing at all under his credible gray hair.
“Heavy Metal meets Mark Driscoll”
(Humor) Mark Driscoll joins Slipknot.
Jerome,
When business does well for everyone it is because contracts were well thought out and are being consciously exploited to maximum good effect as intended. Jesus is literally promoting Holy Spirit-fuelled “unionisation” in a pharisaical synagogue of His time, and our equivalent (heavy burdens being laid).
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Looking back at my life, the best remedy is a whole load of belly laughing.
I wonder if one can ward off church takeovers or the influence of a church-within-the church by prayer for fellow parishioners (too seldom taught)?
Linn,
Bless their hearts, that’s a lot better than excommunicating them!
A 20-something “lead” pastor coupled with a 20-something team of “elders” is a recipe for disaster. The spiritual maturity of all of them combined would weigh less than an ESV paperback bible.
We’ve lost a generation of great preachers with great sermons. Skinny jeans, big screens, and fog machines have replaced them.
A pastor once told me that he preached to the folks on the back pew, keeping it simple enough for them to understand and hoping they would catch up with the “rest of us.” I told him I didn’t think many of them would ever catch up, so stop swimming in shallow water and dig out some deeper stuff from the Bible for the “rest of us.” He never did … wasn’t in him.
I remember Friendly Atheist had a posting after the Biden Inauguration; the gist of it was that 24-year-old poet at the Inaguaration was better and deeper than the official Benediction. She knew the power behind words, the crafting and smithing and weaving of words to make a point — and so many of today’s preachers do not.
For 9Marx pastors, however, even members who die must be a teaching moment to remind the living they can’t leave without permission.
Who was that son of Solomon? Rebohoam? The one who succeeded to the throne, brought his dudebro drinking buddies along as his cabinet/advisors/court faves, and promptly blew up the kingdom his father left him in civil war?
David/Solomon/Rebohoam — Rags to Riches to Rags in three generations, with all twelve lineages from Isaac along for the ride.
Juan Ponce de Leon went looking for the fountain of youth. Maybe these guys have found it, but it’s a piece of paper.
Yep, young King Rehoboam … he forsook the wise council of Solomon’s elders and listened to his dudebro buddies. It didn’t turn out well for Rehoboam nor Israel. Elder teams in their 20s-30s don’t typically offer anything elder in wisdom. Thousands of SBC church plants have the youth group running things.
Dave A A,
Growing up I attended a church which had around 500 members on the roll. By the time I was old enough to know what was really going on, if we had 100 in attendance it was a great Sunday.
We had the old Rolodex with the membership info. I would estimate 3/5 of the names had ZERO contact information (no address, no phone — this was before e-mail).
I knew of THREE people that were true shut-ins.
I also remember a business meeting where the pastor mentioned that a couple notified the church that they wanted to transfer their membership to one of another denomination (from SBC to Methodist); since our church didn’t grant such letters (we did only to other Baptist churches) and our bylaws didn’t prohibit someone from being a member elsewhere, they stayed on the rolls.
So I actually agree that people who aren’t truly prohibited from attending (by health or old age), and who make ZERO effort to attend, support, or even bother to notify the church of their new contact info, shouldn’t remain members. Of course, before removing them I would ask the active members if they have any info on where the people are, that might get some helpful responses:
“I remember Mrs. Hopkins; after her husband died she moved to Mississippi to live with her son, and she did two years ago.”
“The Forrest family? They attend Super Mega Charismatic Church; they post their church activities on Facebook all the time!”
“Bobby Ryan? He became an atheist while in seminary.”
National treasure.
Easier to get them young, lead them in a certain way (top-down teaching from the coalition of writers of books and studies etc.), and ready them to support certain priorities going forward. Remember it was the young ones who were following and led away by the piper (sic).
Headless Unicorn Guy,
They follow a playbook, as Ruth Ben-Ghiat documents in her research. Parallels what happens in some church events: a stealth strongman takeover with his beloved wife (Nina Burleigh researches the strongmen’s women).
When is church relinquishing agency? IMHO, this was never Jesus’ intent, nor does the HS ever lead us to yield our self-governance to other people. We each are empowered, we each are responsible.
And yet they’ll claim that it’s all ‘Biblical’ and according to Paul.
“Beloved wife” as in the one who REALLY wears the pants and puppets Beloved Dear Leader?
Imelda Marcos, Elena Ceaucescu, many Chinese Empresses and Imperial Concubines of legend?
“Give me your children for five years and I will make them mine. You will pass away, but they will remain Mine.”
— Adolf Hitler, cult leader
Certainly, but the new reformers will answer to Jesus not Paul! They hardly mention the precious name of Christ and avoid the Gospels like COVID … then go about distorting the epistles of Paul … which, of course, is another gospel and not ‘the’ Gospel.
The New Calvinist icons (Piper, Mohler, et al.) will pay an awful price for leading thousands down a road of aberrant faith. They have taken many young men out of real ministry who could have been preaching Christ instead of Calvin. Payday someday.
.Mark R,
Loved this comment.
.Mark R,
As a 70+ year Southern Baptist (I’m a “Done” now), I dare say what you describe goes on in some degree at 47,000 SBC churches … church rolls which have dead folks still on them, members who have moved their membership to another church, relocated to another city, or otherwise unaccounted for. Church leaders like to brag about 500 members on their church roster, even if only 50 attend. They pad their resumes of pastoring “big” churches which weren’t.
from: E.W. Bullinger’s Companion Bible p-1799:
To Timothy were given the earliest instructions for orderly arrangement in the church, these instructions
being of the simplest nature, and, as Dean Alford well observes with regard to the Pastoral Epistles as a whole,
the directions given “are altogether of an ethical, not of an hierarchical kind”. These directions afford no warrant
whatsoever for the widespread organizations of the “churches” as carried on today.
The above was written almost a century ago.
Ethical not hierarchal? So, true, doesn’t describe “church” as we know it.
@MargMowczko replying to @wartwatch
“The TGC are too interested in hierarchies and stratification. Very few of the meaningful things in life can be ranked in a top-down linear fashion, and that includes ranking male and female humans.”
… does not resemble the Church model described in Scripture.