No Post Today: It Doesn’t Seem As Important As What Is Happening in DC. Please Pray for the Safety of Congress, Police, Etc.

I will try to update this as things progress. Please follow my Twitter if wanted. @wartwatch

My reports without attribution are coming from major news media which I’m watching in real-time.

  • US Capitol breached as Trump supporters clash with police
  • According to news reports, shots have been fired.
  • Guns were drawn on the House floor.
  • Mayor of DC calling for National Guard.
  • Legislators wearing gas masks are now in hiding in an undisclosed location.
  • One person has been shot. No further info.

The poor woman who died was a protestor and may have been shot by law enforcement but that is not clear at this time.

Congress plans to meet to finish the business of the day. I hope they do.

I abhor violence of any kind. I had hoped, going into 2021, things might improve. There is far too much hatred and mistrust on all sides. We are a deeply divided country and I don’t know how we can ever come together. While watching what was going on, I did something I never thought I would do. As I have often said, I have been both Republican and Democrat. Today, I  became unaffiliated. My husband has done the same thing. That doesn’t mean I won’t vote or I won’t care. But I want to be one person who listens carefully to all sides and I won’t let my party affiliation stand in the way. We need to have more peacemakers whose love and caring overcomes the divide. May I be one among many.

Comments

No Post Today: It Doesn’t Seem As Important As What Is Happening in DC. Please Pray for the Safety of Congress, Police, Etc. — 332 Comments

  1. “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” (2 Chronicles 7:14)

    If not now … when?

  2. I was at the Capitol in 2019 – beautiful building and area. When change happens, sometimes a reset occurs. Hopefully no one will get hurt. Ultimately I believe that there will be a brighter day ahead (not talking politically – just in general). This will pass.

    Take care of yourselves.

  3. The news just reported that a proTrump woman protester that has been shot has died. Every movement needs a martyr and now they have one. We need to pray for our country and for peace but I really doubt we will see it anytime soon, the divisions are so deep that only a miracle of God can help our nation. I am neither a Trump supporter or hater but after his performance today I believe he needs to be removed from office using the 25th amendment ASAP. Vice President Pence needs to intervene and lead our country to a peaceful transition of power. I love my country and never believed that I would see what I have seen today. I am not letting the Democrats off the hook either, a lot of what they have done has fueled this crisis too. Both parties are corrupt as far as I am concerned.

  4. Watching the coverage and pics. Counted sprinking of Confederate battlejacks, Gadsen Flags, 13-star flags, a “Three-Percenter” flag, one National Rifle Association flag, one Bennington flag, one Christian flag (in the footage of entering the Senate chamber) two JESUS flags, and one JESUS SAVES sign.

    And the bare-chested guy with all the tats, painted face, and the Conan The Barbarian horned helmet.

    Dubya Bush said it best: This is the type of election reaction you find in a Banana Republic.

  5. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    There was also a gentleman who stormed in the Capitol wearing a “Camp Auschwitz” T-shirt, just as the votes were being tallied in Georgia for possibly electing a Jewish senator, and an African American senator. That Camp’s WW2 Admins et al were not too fond of these particular minorities back in the day.

  6. Ava Aaronson: There was also a gentleman who stormed in the Capitol wearing a “Camp Auschwitz” T-shirt

    “Gentleman” – NOT! Today was horrifying to watch.

  7. Headless Unicorn Guy: And the bare-chested guy with all the tats, painted face, and the Conan The Barbarian horned helmet.

    He’s the “Q Shaman,” apparently famous.

    There’s also vid of a young man repeatedly doing Not see salutes inside the Capitol.

    Ruth Ben-Ghiat and other responsible observers are suggesting possible complicity between the mob and members of law enforcement on Capitol grounds. At a minimum this was a colossal failure, with men stealing police riot shields, breaking windows to get into the Capitol, and then opening doors for others.

    Our tax dollars paid for massive security upgrades to the Capitol after 9/11. It is an intimidating place to most visitors. I cannot begin to comprehend how a big group could penetrate and occupy it in this way, striding about, putting feet on desks, destroying things.

    THIS WAS ORCHESTRATED. People booked hotel rooms, drove and flew from all over the country, communicated about where to park. There was extensive communication about how to bring certain types of hardware into DC. The mob released gas in the building. At least three IEDs have been found nearby, along with a small gallows. Law enforcement should not have been caught off guard.

  8. Chuck,

    Let’s not confuse people.

    Certain news organizations are actively trying to pin today’s insurrection—Pres. Bush’s word—on a specific group that has never breached the Capitol.

    The last people to breach the Capitol were the British in 1814 (not their equally obnoxious American cousins). Or you could point to the Puerto Rican nationalists who breached the building in 1954 (not the Alaskans, Hawaiians, or Samoans).

  9. I would respond to the last seven comments, but I will not as I would violate this blog’s longstanding ban on discussing politics.

  10. Friend: Ruth Ben-Ghiat

    What’s interesting about her historical research is that it totally lines up with TWW’s documentation of abuse-of-power religious leaders – except Ben-Ghiat documents leaders in a non-religious arena (yet, both religious & secular orgs can be cults, so there’s that).

    Example of a minute ago: “By the way, the ‘pivots’ of [so-and-so] line up w/elites’ behavior throughout history. Once they decide to back the leader they stick with him no matter how much misery & death he causes. Only when he creates a situation that jeopardizes their own safety do they turn on him.” @ruthbenghiat

  11. Max: If not now … when?

    The answer to that in the past has been after many thousands were killed as factions fought over temporal worldly power. The news does not surprise me. It is what our leaders on both sides of the aisles have been sowing. When you sow to the wind you reap the whirlwind. The rhetoric on both sides have been dehumanizing the “other” party. That is a precursor to just getting violent and killing them. We got a rough year ahead. Time to stop demonizing people just because they belong to the other party.

    It will be a good year to get to know the voice of the Holy Spirit better than ever. When some first started talking about a coming civil war and bloodshed many scoffed. It does not look like anyone is scoffing anymore.

  12. I am also refraining from comments because of the desired goal of keeping TWW out of the political disaster.
    However, I will say that, as I have commented before, I am following Facebook posts from some of my classmates from my fundamentalist high school. And, they are continuing to post outrageous conspiracy ideas, including saying the the violence in the Capital is due to Antifa trouble makers that have infiltrated the “right wing” peaceful protests..

    While I am not so simplistic to “blame everything” on a single cause, fundamentalist and evangelicals have been pushing conspiracy theories since I was a child… I could bore you with a multitude of examples… I think what we are now experiencing in this country, while not caused by fundamentalist/evangelicals, it has sure been catalyzed..

  13. In the middle of the fray, one news group reported the following. ” The protesters who stormed the Capitol seemed mostly older. One was smoking a joint.

  14. Mr. Jesperson,

    Let’s be super clear here. Yesterday there was not a battle between rival groups inside the US Capitol building. One group gathered to listen to speeches. That one group marched together to the Capitol, broke through four layers of security fences. That one group used police shields to shatter windows. That one group scaled walls, overwhelmed the police, rampaged through the building, occupied offices, shattered things, stole things, posed with statues in Statuary Hall, stood on the Senate dais, released tear gas inside the building. That one group planted IEDs nearby. That one group set up a device outside for using a rope to end lives.

    So yeah, divisive rhetoric, polarization, all of that. But let’s give credit where credit is due.

  15. Jeffrey J Chalmers: While I am not so simplistic to “blame everything” on a single cause, fundamentalist and evangelicals have been pushing conspiracy theories since I was a child… I could bore you with a multitude of examples… I think what we are now experiencing in this country, while not caused by fundamentalist/evangelicals, it has sure been catalyzed..

    Step 1: https://internetmonk.com/archive/the-limbaughization-of-evangelicals
    Step 2: Let ferment for 15-20 years of Culture War and End Times Prophecy.
    Step 3: Introduce Catalyst and Focus – THE New Messiah/Savior figure for America’s Christians.

  16. Jeffrey J Chalmers: I am also refraining from comments because of the desired goal of keeping TWW out of the political disaster.
    However, I will say that, as I have commented before, I am following Facebook posts from some of my classmates from my fundamentalist high school. And, they are continuing to post outrageous conspiracy ideas, including saying the the violence in the Capital is due to Antifa trouble makers that have infiltrated the “right wing” peaceful protests..

    Same thing here. I have been so disturbed by close Christian friends in the past year and the crazy conspiracy theories they have not only believed, but spread on social media. Some of them I have removed from my life.

    I get that people are mad about the government, about covid, about lockdowns, and more, but this is not the way to deal with it.

  17. Headless Unicorn Guy,
    Step 3b: A new Infallible Inerrant SCRIPTURE(TM) – with maximized addictiveness – doesn’t hurt:
    https://medium.com/curiouserinstitute/a-game-designers-analysis-of-qanon-580972548be5

    Ever heard of “The Adult Diaper App”?
    It’s the Holy Grail of Social Media Apps.
    An App so addictive that users will soil themselves rather than have to step away from the App to go to the bathroom.
    You can pay $1500 for a seat at Silicon Valley conferences on how to create the Adult Diaper App, from biochemists and psychologists specializing in Addiction.

  18. Oh, and today’s hospitalization and death numbers for COVID have broken yesterday’s record. (Which broke the record of the day before. Which broke the record of the day before…)

    And this is still the Thanksgiving Surge. The Christmas Surge atop that surge should be starting to show any day now. And a week after that, the New Years Surge should start to show. (And a week after that, the surge from yesterday’s SuperSpreader Event in DC coming in two more weeks…)

    Vaccine is piling up in the warehouse freezers.
    “Distribution? We Never Thought of That!”

  19. Signs with Scripture verses and Jesus flags seemed so out of place in DC yesterday … one media photo captured a Jesus flag at the head of the pack. I’m sure there were some peaceful Christian protesters in the crowd, but invoking the precious name of Jesus to endorse mob behavior and descrecation of government buildings has no place in the Kingdom of God.

  20. Friend: So yeah, divisive rhetoric, polarization, all of that. But let’s give credit where credit is due.

    I agree with your comments to be keep things more clear.

  21. ishy,

    I did not have to block many of my Facebook, HS fundy classmates.. when I tried to challenge stuff they said with facts, they blocked ME! Yup, I am one of those evil, secular humanist scientist that we were repeatedly told to be wary of…. if you look closely, you can see horns growing out of the back of my head..

    While I make light of it, for many years there was a “internal battle” in my head about how I was not a “good Christian” for pursuing my talents/interests in being a engineer/scientist.. while all of this “stuff” happening validates my personal choices, what a sad/degenerative way for me to get validated…

  22. Jeffrey J Chalmers: I am following Facebook posts from some of my classmates from my fundamentalist high school. And, they are continuing to post outrageous conspiracy ideas, including saying the the violence in the Capital is due to Antifa trouble makers that have infiltrated the “right wing” peaceful protests..

    I’m not on FB anymore but I have conservative Christian friends and not as conservative Christian friends. And I got off FB, in part, for having too many politically motivated conservative(maybe conservative isn’t the “right” word) Christian FB friends.

    It seems to me that last spring during the protests some people dismissed or minimized the idea that Antifa contributed considerably to the violence and destruction, not peaceful protesters. But now Antifa is being brought up in regards to the violence yesterday by the same groups that seemed not to acknowledge Antifa last spring. This inconsistency makes it hard, for me, to listen to those who haven’t been good listeners.

  23. Jeffrey J Chalmers: While I make light of it, for many years there was a “internal battle” in my head about how I was not a “good Christian” for pursuing my talents/interests in being a engineer/scientist.. while all of this “stuff” happening validates my personal choices, what a sad/degenerative way for me to get validated…

    I imagine. I’ve known a lot of people like that. But, most of those people will just judge everyone else else for other things. They don’t know how to relate to anyone without judging them. It’s probably insecurity, but it shows how little people really believe the faith they claim.

  24. Jeffrey J Chalmers: for many years there was a “internal battle” in my head about how I was not a “good Christian” for pursuing my talents/interests in being a engineer/scientist

    I spent a career as an environmental scientist and found more opportunities to be a good Christian in the workplace than I did in church! The organized church brought the worst out of me … I was so mad about how off-track everything was from pulpit to pew and was always speaking into it. (I still do)

  25. Tina: Today I am just sad.

    I resemble that remark. If you had told me as a child that I would live to see a day like this in America, I would have said “No way!” … I’m now saying “Oh my!”

  26. Jeffrey J Chalmers: While I make light of it, for many years there was a “internal battle” in my head about how I was not a “good Christian” for pursuing my talents/interests in being a engineer/scientist.. while all of this “stuff” happening validates my personal choices, what a sad/degenerative way for me to get validated…

    FWIW, classic Reformed reckon secular vocations to be valid and honorable “callings” from God.

    Re: the interpretation of specific infiltrator groups; it was distressing to hear such proposals in the C-SPAN call-in segment yesterday, but I don’t think that the possibility of the presence of intentional trouble-makers (whatever their affiliation or motive) can be ruled out. I’ve wondered whether BLM protests that on occasion (the only ones we hear about; for profit media has little interest in reporting events that do not alarm the audience) turned violent or destructive of property may have at times had a similar dynamic. I have the impression that the (now long past) Occupy Wall Street protests were monitored from inside for a while before they were shut down by police action.

    More surprising for me is the apparent unpreparedness of the Capitol Police for a mass protest that they must have known was coming, and the apparent lack of contingency preparations for disorders outside the Capitol. I’ve read that there will be oversight inquiry and perhaps some personnel changes within that force.

  27. Jeffrey J Chalmers: I am also refraining from comments because of the desired goal of keeping TWW out of the political disaster.

    While you’ve been “keeping out of the political disaster”, CHRISTIANS HAVE BEEN GETTING MORE AND MORE POLITICIZED. TO THE POINT THAT THERE IS NO CHRIST ANY MORE; POLITICS IS THEIR NEW GOD.

  28. Ella,

    One of the people I heard interviewed during the coverage yesterday specifically mentioned many people he was familiar with whom he recognized in the mob, specifically white supremacist-type groups (multiple names of groups, not just one).

  29. Samuel Conner: unpreparedness of the Capitol Police for a mass protest that they must have known was coming

    Yeah, even Wartburgers knew this might happen! IMO, the U.S. military needs to be protecting/defending the Capitol rather than a civilian police force.

  30. Bridget: his article is sad commentary.

    My sense is that a lot of the public posturing since early November has been more about positioning for future appeal to the party “base” than actually changing the election outcome. I think this article might be another instance of that. I suspect that this phenomenon will be with us for several more years.

    Peter Turchin is probably feeling vindicated right now.

    http://peterturchin.com/ages-of-discord/

    He’s sort of a real-life version of Asimov’s “psychohistorians”

  31. “There’s naught left in him but lies and deceit. It’s the Ring he wants; it’s all he cares about.”
    (Samwise Gamgee to Frodo, speaking about Gollum and the Ring of Power.
    Lord of the Rings fans will understand!

  32. Samuel Conner: More surprising for me is the apparent unpreparedness of the Capitol Police for a mass protest that they must have known was coming, and the apparent lack of contingency preparations for disorders outside the Capitol. I’ve read that there will be oversight inquiry and perhaps some personnel changes within that force.

    Yes, this. And I agree that various non peaceful groups most likely contributed to destruction and violence in both protests last spring and yesterday. But, yesterday was different and there is clear public evidence of the calling for non peaceful group involvement. This is different than last spring. And the location is different. Yesterday was different. I’ve heard that DC police have extensive training (more than other places) in nonviolent management of protests, but, It does seem strange that the Capitol security was understaffed and unprepared.

  33. Samuel Conner: My sense is that a lot of the public posturing since early November has been more about positioning for future appeal to the party “base” than actually changing the election outcome.

    Because the party “base” are now TOTAL FANATICS.
    With the CHRISTIANS among the most Fanatical of the Fanatics.

    “MY LIFE FOR YOU!!! MY LIFE FOR YOU!!!”
    — Trashcan Man, The Stand

  34. Ella: I’ve heard that DC police have extensive training (more than other places) in nonviolent management of protests, but, It does seem strange that the Capitol security was understaffed and unprepared.

    Maybe they were told from On High not to interfere?

    “The BLM Protestors were “Thugs”. These are “great Patriots” who have been badly and unfairly treated.”

  35. Max: IMO, the U.S. military needs to be protecting/defending the Capitol rather than a civilian police force

    This would violate the Posse Comitatus Act. Remember that the Sec Def and chief of staff of the Army regretted participating in Lafayette Square in June. The National Guard can help when swiftly activated through established steps.

    The DC Guard was already activated before yesterday. Confusion or stubbornness slowed the process of calling up more of them. That needs review.

    On a permanent basis, though, I would rather not see the buildings of our civilian government surrounded by tanks and troops. There was a lot of that after 9/11. It was chilling, scary, and sad.

  36. ishy: I’ve known a lot of people like that. But, most of those people will just judge everyone else else for other things. They don’t know how to relate to anyone without judging them.

    To paraphrase a 1950s Ku Kluxer, “If I can’t be Holier than Thou, Who do I got to be Holier than?”

  37. Ella: in part, for having too many politically motivated conservative(maybe conservative isn’t the “right” word) Christian FB friends.

    These days, is there any other kind?
    Especially when you factor in Net Drunk Syndrome.

  38. Friend: The DC Guard was already activated before yesterday. Confusion or stubbornness slowed the process of calling up more of them. That needs review.

    I’ve read that the NG was not involved right away out of concern that the chain of command terminates at the Office of the person who earlier in the day had addressed and, arguably, incited the crowed. If that’s right, it was an abundance of caution in the interest of not turning a public disorder into a more profound constitutional crisis.

  39. Mr. Jesperson: It will be a good year to get to know the voice of the Holy Spirit better than ever. When some first started talking about a coming civil war and bloodshed many scoffed. It does not look like anyone is scoffing anymore.

    Did Jesus appear to you in another Vision to tell you that?
    In my church, “Private Revelation” is the preferred way to flake out.

  40. Max: Signs with Scripture verses and Jesus flags seemed so out of place in DC yesterday … one media photo captured a Jesus flag at the head of the pack.

    I’m not surprised, Max.
    Just the opposite.
    While we’ve been “staying out of politics”, Evangelical Christians became THE most Fanatical of T***p Fanatics. They have chosen a new God, a God who will give them what they want, and Taken His Mark.

  41. Friend,

    I’m not an expert on Posse Comitatus, or the Insurrection Act. But active duty troops don’t typically have arrest authority, unlike police and National Guard.

  42. Max: invoking the precious name of Jesus to endorse mob behavior and descrecation of government buildings has no place in the Kingdom of God.

    Depends on who your REAL God is.

  43. Bridget,

    I think the word “evangelical” has been hijacked, in a similar way that “complementary” has been hijacked. Given that, I don’t want to use the new hijacked words in a way that increases their new meaning influence.

    I have friends who knew me when I was young and friends who made my acquaintance later who are evangelicals that have seemed to embrace the new meaning. It’s complex, for me, anyway. I’m thankful for other types of friends and family, too.

  44. Samuel Conner,

    Possibly, and remember how many new and acting appointees there are.

    My bigger question is why more of the Capitol Police did not point their Noisy Equipment at the mob right away. Exactly how did they get overrun?

    And why did they appear to shoo people out of the building later instead of zip tying them by the dozens? Lost tourists get treated more severely than this mob.

  45. Now is a good time to brush up on the fall of the German Weirmar Republic because of similarities to our times. They had The Protocols of the Elders of Zion whereas we have Q-Anon and similar conspiracy theories. They too had Antifa. Both their Antifa and their Brown shirts (enemies of each other) opposed the liberal republic. And then there were the normal Germans who were trying to live their lives and did not believe how bad it could get.

  46. Friend,

    As of this AM, I’ve read that there have been 52 arrests, which seems low in view of the crowds of trespassers and “hooligans”.

    There are videos out of CPs opening barriers to allow the crowds to proceed toward the Capitol building. I think that this must have happened before Congress assembled in joint session. One could argue this was down as a concession to the crowds in the interest of avoiding worse behavior on the crowd’s part. There does not seem to have been nearly enough CP on hand to manage a crowd of that size.

    I don’t know how large the CP force is, but I suspect that to control the situation, it would have required a shoulder to shoulder line of officers in riot gear, and it may be that that was a “look” that higher-ups wished to avoid on such an important day. Similarly, a pre-emptive deployment of a mass of NG troops to “man the barricades”, or pre-emptive restrictions on public access to DC or on mass transit within DC, which could have frustrated the progress of the crowd into the Capitol grounds, might have conveyed an impression of political precarity that I would imagine the responsible decision-makers preferred to not convey. In retrospect, what actually happened cannot be reckoned to have been better.

    An awful lot of our public life depends on the observation of widely accepted norms. The norms don’t seem as widely accepted as they used to be.

  47. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    I confess that my first thought, on hearing that the Capitol building was invaded, was that we were experiencing a tin-pot analogue of the “beer hall putsch”. But it’s not a good analogy. The Weimar Republic at that point was, I think, considerably weaker than US currently is, and the proportion of the population with military experience far larger (all those demobilized soldiers from WW1) than ours. OTOH, the stresses that seem to be tearing US apart show no signs of abating.

  48. Samuel Conner: OTOH, the stresses that seem to be tearing US apart show no signs of abating.

    Rest assured, the Christians will cheer it on.
    “SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! RAPTURE! RAPTURE! RAPTURE!”

  49. Ken F (aka Tweed): Now is a good time to brush up on the fall of the German Weirmar Republic because of similarities to our times. They had The Protocols of the Elders of Zion whereas we have Q-Anon and similar conspiracy theories. They too had Antifa.

    They had “The Lying Press”; we have “Fake News. Librul Media Lies.”
    They had “The Stab in the Back”; we have “Stop the Steal”.

  50. Friend: The National Guard can help when swiftly activated through established steps.

    They weren’t swift enough yesterday – they need to revisit their deployment protocol. Perhaps the Capitol Police force just needs to be increased and more proactive when such events are known to be headed their way. I’m sure Congress will fix it now, since they have oversight over the CP and don’t want a repeat of yesterday. (agreed, I don’t think the nation’s capitol should be a military base)

  51. The cases were lost, not yesterday, but when those grown boys from a religious school, old enough to clerk offices or go down mines, wore their “loser” hats to a monument where the descendant of the dispossessed hangs out, as he might. Their bishop told them off, then he got told off for telling them off, then he agreed to get told off for telling them off. That is when the cases were lost. (I have not condoned what they were subjected to after; but who put them up to that stunt?)

    Ella,

    We have been dispossessed – of most of our churches.

  52. Samuel Conner: the stresses that seem to be tearing US apart show no signs of abating.

    … and the distance between moderate and far-right or far-left seems to be getting shorter.

  53. Samuel Conner: a pre-emptive deployment of a mass of NG troops …

    … parked within 5 minutes of the Capitol, ready to go, would have been appropriate considering the volatile nature of DC events yesterday. Folks who plan for such things obviously weren’t thinking pre-emptively enough. TWW comments along this line may sound like a Thursday morning quarterback, but for goodness sake, somebody(s) slipped up bad here.

  54. Friend: And why did they appear to shoo people out of the building later instead of zip tying them by the dozens?

    Yeah, that was a very disturbing image. Those who forced their way into the Capitol should not have been escorted out so easily. We’ll most likely see them again on another bad day in America. Instead of “Y’all go on home now”, these criminals should have been lying face down spread-eagle in the rotunda until suitable forces arrived to put those “patriots” in paddy-wagons.

  55. Max,

    My interpretation is that our rulers are very out of touch with how unhappy (and for good reason — can’t meet rent, or facing the “heat or eat” dilemma, and many more sorrows could be mentioned) many of the ruled are.

    Ken F’s remarks that we might be in a situation reminiscent of post WWI strikes a chord with me, but I think we could look closer to home both for analogies and possible solutions. I intuit that we may be facing levels of hardship that distantly resemble the suffering that led to the “Bonus Army” march. Whether there will be mass action analogous to that remains to be seen. I do hope that creative approaches to policy, analogous to FDR’s, become more politically palatable.

  56. Samuel Conner: our rulers are very out of touch

    They don’t listen for the heartbeat of their constituents until a few months before reelection. Swamp creatures prosper, while the masses hurt. A campaign promise to put a chicken in every pot buys votes … thus, they get reelected and go back to the swamp while voters wait (and wait) for the chicken.

  57. Samuel Conner: I think this article might be another instance of that.

    Hmm. The man who wrote it isn’t running for office. He’s part of Evangelicalism, if he still feels a part.

  58. Friend: That one group planted IEDs nearby. That one group set up a device outside for using a rope to end lives.

    So yeah, divisive rhetoric, polarization, all of that. But let’s give credit where credit is due.

    Again, I am not interested in more partisan sniping at each other. Last summer it was the far left, now it is the far right. That is my only point. And it is not just one group. That is part of the partisan B.S. A group of anarchists planted bombs near both parties headquarters. That was a swipe at the whole government, not just one narcissist wanting to hold onto power while another lusts just as strongly to grab it up. We live in times where there are signs of this all over the world. The finances of what is funding the western governments are on a track which in unsustainable. That is bound to cause chaos such as has been in Greece for over a decade now. What is happening is trending to the worse, which is a point that should not be merely ignored. We have lots of political leaders stirring up the anger. No surprise when it starts to explode.

  59. Max: … and the distance between moderate and far-right or far-left seems to be getting shorter.

    To me it seems the opposite – the extremes on both sides appear to be getting more extreme and more separated from the mainstream. And both extremes are applying significant presure to get the masses in the middle in line with their respective idealogies. However, the extremes are starting to become more like each other in the same way that far left and far right dictatorships look pretty much the same. Both are using riots, chaos, and polarizing rhetoric to tear down our constitutional republic.

  60. Headless Unicorn Guy: They had “The Lying Press”; we have “Fake News. Librul Media Lies.”
    They had “The Stab in the Back”; we have “Stop the Steal”.

    And both sides believe their side is the righteous side and the other side is pure evil. It’s hard to have dialogue with evil people, which prevents meeting in the middle. However, last night in Congress there seemed to be better dialogue than normal. So maybe there is hope.

  61. Ken F (aka Tweed): And then there were the normal Germans who were trying to live their lives and did not believe how bad it could get.

    There is certainly a lesson in that. Hitler, after all, was elected before he became a defacto dictator. In times of chaos things happen that people simply do not want to believe could happen. The Reformation started in Germany and then the whole country later turned to an anti-Christ. We should not think so much of ourselves to assume that that is impossible where we live rather or not you are living in the U.S. Any nation can fall to the spiritual forces that are actually behind such terrible things.

  62. Ken F (aka Tweed): To me it seems the opposite – the extremes on both sides appear to be getting more extreme and more separated from the mainstream. And both extremes are applying significant pressure to get the masses in the middle in line with their respective ideologies. However, the extremes are starting to become more like each other in the same way that far left and far right dictatorships look pretty much the same. Both are using riots, chaos, and polarizing rhetoric to tear down

    In total agreement there. And the spiritual forces behind both sides are the same. They will leave a Antifa meeting stoking up the hate and go right to a Proud Boys meeting and do the same. They are good at this as they have much practice over the millennia. This is one of the reasons why Jesus was so much against factions, so much so that He prayed to His Father that we would be One. There is a spirit behind them that is certainly not holy and has no good in mind for anyone.

  63. Ken F (aka Tweed): However, the extremes are starting to become more like each other in the same way that far left and far right dictatorships look pretty much the same. Both are using riots, chaos, and polarizing rhetoric to tear down our constitutional republic.

    Both extremes have had a taste of power and the more intoxicated with power they get the more extreme and, oddly, angry they get.

  64. Ken F (aka Tweed): So maybe there is hope.

    Yes there is hope. America is not Weimar Germany – there was whole lot (as in more than a mere comment box can contain) going on that is not happening in the US. There is no civil war – again much more went on there than can be written in a comment box (Ken Burns spent something like 10 hours breaking it all down)

    Consider what happened. Yes, there were a lot of people, yes- the police were overwhelmed. But on the grand scheme, these are isolated instances of domestic unrest. From I what I remember the offices are close to the open tourist areas – no surprise they were breached.

    I think the police were gobsmacked. Protests? Absolutely! But the Capitol is sacrosanct – nobody expected it. In reality I think it was less destructive than it could have been. The deaths are tragic but again far less than expected considering – no ok just could have been worse.

    I’m not American so I freely admit I don’t have my finger on any pulse but I personally think that yesterday’s crowd was jacked up on far right fantasy a la “The Turner Diaries”. They’re on the side of a declining demographic and they are scared out of their beans.

    Most Americans aren’t into this.

  65. Ken F (aka Tweed): extremes are applying significant pressure to get the masses in the middle in line with their respective ideologies

    Indeed, even within the church. There is an influential segment of a once-moderate church which is drifting steadily to the far right (e.g., MacArthur and his ministry). In my area, many conservatives (Christian and non-Christian) have become more extremist in their worldview … I’m sure some of them were at the DC rally yesterday. Fake news is spread on both sides, fueling unrest.

  66. Jack: I’m not American so I freely admit I don’t have my finger on any pulse but I personally think that yesterday’s crowd was jacked up on far right fantasy a la “The Turner Diaries”.

    Every time I look at one of these Patriot Militias — Boogaloo Boyz, Proud Boyz, you name it — I keep thinking TURNER DIARIES – The Live Role-Playing Game”> With its rules supplement STORM: DAY OF THE ROPE.

    I have an anecdote about Turner Diaries (which my sources who have actually read it say it reads like Bad Author Self-Insert Fanfic).

    This happened at a local gun show, some years after the big Pomona Gun Show got run out of state and relocated in Vegas. (For those who have never attended one, they are also great places to pick up outdoor equipment in general and rare and/or military history books/tech manuals.)

    Well, I was browsing at one of the book vendors wearing a Confederate grey kepi from a re-enactor bud. Skimming through an unbeleiveable puff-piece biography of Douglsa MacArthur. Vendor pointed out my kepi, said “you’d be interested in this”, reached under his vendor’s table, and came up with a copy of Turner Diaries he tried to pitch to me.

    Part of me wanted to ask if he also had Protocols of the Elders of Zion, but I decided I really didn’t want to know and drifted down the aisle to another vendor.

    It’s no fun being a Weirdness magnet.

  67. Mr. Jesperson: There is certainly a lesson in that. Hitler, after all, was elected before he became a defacto dictator

    It’s called “Coup from Within”.

  68. Ken F (aka Tweed):
    This is a good article on similarties between Q-Anon and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion: https://www.justsecurity.org/72339/qanon-is-a-nazi-cult-rebranded/

    And (as I pointed out above), similarities between Q-Anon and a Maasively Multiplayer Role-Playing Game (with puzzle-solving emphasis).
    https://medium.com/curiouserinstitute/a-game-designers-analysis-of-qanon-580972548be5

    And I could also make a case for similarities to Malleus Malificarium, Warnke’s Satan Seller, John Todd, and all the other “Secret Knowledge” authors and books of The Satanic Panic back in the Eighties.

  69. Ken F (aka Tweed): However, the extremes are starting to become more like each other in the same way that far left and far right dictatorships look pretty much the same.

    Funhouse mirror reflections of each other — totally-opposite on the surface, identical beneath.

    Like Communism and Objectivism.

  70. Samuel Conner: I confess that my first thought, on hearing that the Capitol building was invaded, was that we were experiencing a tin-pot analogue of the “beer hall putsch”.

    With elements of The Reichstag Fire and March on Rome.

  71. Mr. Jesperson: the spiritual forces behind both sides are the same. They will leave a Antifa meeting stoking up the hate and go right to a Proud Boys meeting and do the same

    Yesterday’s riot had very significant human input. I’m not convinced that spiritual forces needed to lift a spectral finger.

  72. Wondering Eagle is on a roll with this.

    His latest has to do with the Twitter trail of a Megapastor who was part of the mob. Said PASTOR even uploaded Selfies of himself with “Q-Anon Shaman”, the guy with the tats and the Conan the Barbarian hat:
    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2021/01/07/did-pastor-brian-gibson-of-owensboro-kentucky-support-terrorist-activity-in-washington-d-c-on-january-6-2021/

    P.S. Q-Anon Shaman is apparently a familiar sight at rallies in Arizona.

    P.P.S. After yesterday, all airlines are cracking down on flights into DC. A lot of that mob flew in from across the country, just like those stories about the Occupy movement at the Sack of Seattle.

  73. Friend: Mr. Jesperson: the spiritual forces behind both sides are the same. They will leave a Antifa meeting stoking up the hate and go right to a Proud Boys meeting and do the same

    Yesterday’s riot had very significant human input. I’m not convinced that spiritual forces needed to lift a spectral finger.

    BEWARE OF OVER-SPIRITUALIZING — a trait Mr J is known for.

    Especially with the danger of Over-Spiritualizing yourself to the point you cease to be human.
    Like “The Tragedian” in The Great Divorce, but Spiritual.

    Wasn’t the original Christian afterlife Physical RESURRECTION instead of dismbodies souls floating around a purely-Spiritual Fluffy Cloud Heaven like shades in Hades?

  74. All I’m going to say is that I saw pictures of a guy waving a large Confederate flag outside the Senate Chamber. Not even Robert E. Lee could get into Washington during the Civil War, but this guy got in and brought the traitor flag with him. I am *sick*.

  75. Friend: I’m not convinced that spiritual forces needed to lift a spectral finger.

    If you are not a Christian, then I understand why you would say that. If you claim to be one then certainly what Jesus thinks and says should hold more water than our mere opinions. Paul said we do not fight against people but against powers greater than the mortal men whom they use and discard like tissue paper when they are done. This focus on humans as our enemies is where the problem lies. Unbelievers have an excuse, but we do not. There is a whole world out there we do not see. To ignore that is to choose to be foolish. I choose not to do that for obvious reasons. Biden and Trump are not our enemies. They are willing participates and can be deceived. They are not as bad as Nero yet the Bible talks of praying for our leaders written during the reigns of very evil men. And, by the way, Satan had his hands all over the crucifixion. The scriptures say so…

  76. Jack: I’m not American so I freely admit I don’t have my finger on any pulse but I personally think that yesterday’s crowd was jacked up on far right fantasy a la “The Turner Diaries”. They’re on the side of a declining demographic and they are scared out of their beans.

    Most Americans aren’t into this.

    I really hope you’re right. I can only speak to my little of the corner of the country, but there were riots here and in other various states. People in our church were in absolute disbelief (not simply disappointed) at the presidential election outcome. A family member (who up until a year ago I considered sane and reasonable) has called covid “the greatest threat to personal liberty this country has ever seen.” 2020 has exposed a lot of cracks, in individuals and in systems.

  77. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    I thought the exact same thing. Last night I was reading about the beer hall putsch. Amazing how similar two environments can be, half a world a nearly a century separated.

  78. Headless Unicorn Guy: Vendor pointed out my kepi, said “you’d be interested in this”, reached under his vendor’s table, and came up with a copy of Turner Diaries he tried to pitch to me.

    In Canada, the Turner Diaries is illegal. It’s classed as hate literature. A person I know who did read parts for a university course described it as “cold”. I have read a copy of Patriots by James Wesley Rawles. It reads as Diaries Lite and I never did finish it. Rawles is a booster of the “American Redoubt” movement, a plan to turn Wyoming, Montana and Idaho into a conservative religious safe haven.
    What I saw on the news was the crash and burn of this demographic. A pissant attempt at “revolution”. There isn’t enough of them to affect any sort of change.
    At its core, this is fear on display. These folks are terrified of “them”. They’ve even turned against the q shaman. Apparently he’s an antifa plant married to Nancy Pelosi’s daughter. Or granddaughter or something.

  79. I am literally sick over this whole thing. I know many people , including my own family who are on the opposite side of the aisle.
    My Pastor wrote a letter to our small congregation saying “Does Christianity still matter” . I responded. One of my responses was the Church needs to toss the shackles of religion and extra biblical teaching.One person responded that she was curious what extra biblical teachings are. I gave a whole list, but would like your input.
    Since this is somewhat relevant but also somewhat off topic, please use the open discussion tab if you like

  80. Friend: Yesterday’s riot had very significant human input. I’m not convinced that spiritual forces needed to lift a spectral finger.

    I have learned the hard way never to go for a supernatural explanation until natural explanations have been exhausted. Too many Christians go for a Spiritual Warfare/Supernatural explanation first; a form of Superstition with a Christian coat of paint. (My old college roommate was prone to that sort of thing; when things calm down, I might tell you abut the Invisible Starship incident.)

    That said, I have actually experienced two paranormal encounters without natural explanation (what my old Dungeonmaster calls “Weird Sh*t Experiences”). The most blatant of these fits the Spiritual Warfare narrative (but not in the conventional Christian manner).

  81. No Post Today

    “No Boom today. Boom tomorrow. Always Boom tomorrow. BOOM!”
    — Cmdr Ivanova, Babylon-5

  82. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Not even Robert E. Lee could get into Washington during the Civil War, but this guy got in and brought the traitor flag with him.

    If General Lee HAD gotten into Washington (as happened in Harry Turtledove’s novel Guns of the South, he would have gotten there LEGITIMATELY.

    Not so “this guy”, who would have been a better fit as one of Quantrill’s Raiders or a Missouri Bushwhacker. For a taste of what a Civil War is like when the two faction live intermixed, read up on Bleeding Kansas before the War or Missouri during. It ain’t proudly brandishing your Second Amendment Supplies while the Stars & Stripes waves behind you as the ending credits roll. More like Bosnia or Rwanda.

  83. Leslie: “Does Christianity still matter”

    Yes, of course! But the American version – christianity lite – does not. It doesn’t have any salt in it, nor light.

  84. Headless Unicorn Guy: If General Lee HAD gotten into Washington (as happened in Harry Turtledove’s novel Guns of the South, he would have gotten there LEGITIMATELY

    While this is good alternate history, I’m not sure being supplied with ak-47’s by white supremacist time travellers is “legitimate”.
    I preferred turtledove’s other book “how few remain”

  85. Jack: In Canada, the Turner Diaries is illegal. It’s classed as hate literature. A person I know who did read parts for a university course described it as “cold”

    Here’s a video review/commentary on it:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67Rg8V4g3ak

    Something about five minutes in that I picked up on; how when it comes to weapons or other hardware are described in almost-orgasmic rivet-counting detail yet even the sex scenes are rushed through and glosssd over. This is a pattern I became very familiar with from Bad Fanfic – specifically, when the writer has tunnel-vision obsession with something and devotes a lot of his time and energy to indulging that obsession/showing off his expertise at the expense of everything else. (Like a review of a Sly Stallone action movie many years ago — “When 90% of the press kit are closeups and writeups of all the exotic weapons used in the film, that should tell you something. Something NOT good.”)

  86. Max,

    Yes, I agree. This Pastor is Korean and has been appointed to an old dying church. We had not been to church for 10 years before we found this small church. The Pastor is trying to stir up some embers. I am so grateful for him. He is very humble and a true shepherd. We are trying to encourage him. Again, the question was brought up( by me) about extra biblical teachings. I had a whole list but would appreciate the thoughts of others.

    By the way, we found this little Methodist church( 25-40 members) about a year and a half ago. After having given up on organized religion I have to say we have been truly blessed to have found this church.

  87. Jack: While this is good alternate history, I’m not sure being supplied with ak-47’s by white supremacist time travellers is “legitimate”.

    What I liked was the contrast between the Confederates (basically decent but with a BIG blind spot) and the South African AWB time Travellers (neo-Nazis in every sense of the word). As George Orwell wrote about Rudyard Kipling, “The 19th-Century Imperialist mentality and the 20th-Century Gangster mentality are two vwry different things.”

    I preferred turtledove’s other book “how few remain”

    I think How Few Remain started as a reaction to flak he took about GotS. HFR and its series is a “What If?” about the USA/CSA becoming like a couple European countries always at each others’ throats, where peace is just an interval to re-arm for the next war. Later he segues into a retelling of the World Wars using a North American setting instead of a European, paralleling European history of the 20th.

  88. Wild Honey,

    “A family member (who up until a year ago I considered sane and reasonable) has called covid “the greatest threat to personal liberty this country has ever seen.” 2020 has exposed a lot of cracks, in individuals and in systems.”
    ++++++++++++

    sigh…. i sleep next to one. funny how politics never really came up in our relationship until now.

    any suggestions for how to deal with a surprise political mr. hyde?

  89. Headless Unicorn Guy: Mr. Jesperson: There is certainly a lesson in that. Hitler, after all, was elected before he became a defacto dictator

    It’s called “Coup from Within”.

    Yes, Hitler was elected, but he never had nearly enough votes for a majority. He was only promoted to Reichskanzler by the leaders of the conservative and more right-wing parties because they thought that they would be able to control/manipulate him and his followers once he was constrained by the rigors of a public office. Boy were they wrong!

    Also, they had hoped to get the brownshirts off the streets, and with his help further their agenda.

    Now what does this remind me of in today’s situation?

  90. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Spiritual forces come FROM us according as we seek God’s help or otherwise: what comes out of a man defiles him, that’s why we can choose to switch to a better frame of values if we are only given the chance to glimpse it. Mr J occasionally writes in shorthand, but so do others in the threads, a lot. This is why issues need unpacking. Both Johnson and Macarthur are rubbishing Holy Spirit in identical fashion, that is what makes them both fundamentalists.

  91. elastigirl: sigh…. i sleep next to one. funny how politics never really came up in our relationship until now.

    any suggestions for how to deal with a surprise political mr. hyde?

    I’m sorry you’re dealing with this too. I’m in the same boat although I saw it coming for a long time. It’s difficult to preserve the peace of a marriage when you’re far apart in your political views. Speaking up only gets him riled up and won’t change his mind, so I usually keep my mouth shut. Sometimes I have to leave the room to keep myself from saying something I’ll regret. So, no, I don’t have any helpful suggestions because I haven’t found anything that works. It’s emotionally exhausting to live with.

  92. My parents are CONVINCED the election was stolen and that antifa incited the siege of the Capitol. They’re being radicalized by online and radio personalities. They don’t question, research, or fact-check even the most brazenly bizarre and false claims. They’re filling their heads with Fulan Gong propaganda through the Epoch Times and Charismatic extremism through Dutch Sheets along with other sources. It is heart-breaking.

    They’ve lived much of their lives in an evangelical environment that has traded the life-giving gospel for far-right political narratives and Charismatic Dungeons & Dragons fantasy spiritual warfare nonsense.

    And their pastors don’t address this insanity from the pulpit.

  93. elastigirl,

    My family is made up of all sorts of folks from different political persuasions and even differing views on faith. We have decided to overlook those things we don’t agree on and, instead, enjoy one another. We have a family group messaging. We use it to send funny comments and videos. We discuss some books we like and we also talk about what to get my 92 year old mother for her birthday. I’m convinced that messaging thing has kept our family together. We just added my daughter’s soon to be husband. I feel a bit sorry for him. We are really weird.

    My son in law and I love SyFY books and recently discussed, for all to notice, the brain sucking arachnids in one of the books. Except, we got really off beat and had everyone laughing. It’s possible and it’s working for us.

  94. My husband and I feel much better about our *unaffiliated* position when it comes to politics. It fits us so much better. I still want to stick away from politics on this blog. I seek out all sides to the arguments and will vote accordingly. However, in the end, it is our love and charity towards one another as we focus on abuse in the church.

    Today, Todd is going to write one heckuva post on abuse in a ministry that I’ve written about before but things have been gone silent. Time to stir the pot and it does involve the SBC.

  95. Oldster,

    thank you for responding, and for your honesty. it’s utterly maddening. it’s like he’s living in an alternate universe running on ‘alternate facts’.

    (my jaw dropped the first time i heard those words from a powerful person in front of the house that’s not black)

  96. dee,

    thanks for responding, dee.

    that messaging thing sounds good (i assume it’s something like facebook?). making contact and communicating, with some built-in boundaries, perhaps.

    life partner and i decided a few months ago not to talk about politics. i also volunteered to watch the news on my laptop quietly where he isn’t.

    (it helps keep the peace, but that in itself is so concerning… the concept of ‘fake news’ has poisoned him to the point he distrusts all news sources. so he informs himself with twitter and youtube. the sheer stupidity…

    on wednesday, i said it all to him- my 100% unvarnished appraisal of him. hoping to shock him into waking up.

  97. dee,

    I consider myself an “independent” with respect to political parties.. The “alternate universe” that many seem to live in is absolutely breath taking, IMHO…

  98. Oldster: It’s difficult to preserve the peace of a marriage when you’re far apart in your political views.

    Mrs. Muff and me learned long ago that political platforms are just that, platforms, and nothing to die for. Common ground (in my opinion) allows for differences because it does not demand lockstep adherence to every plank in opposing structures.

    Oldster: Sometimes I have to leave the room to keep myself from saying something I’ll regret.

    Does your husband allow you the same courtesy?

  99. Oldster: I’m sorry you’re dealing with this too. I’m in the same boat although I saw it coming for a long time. It’s difficult to preserve the peace of a marriage when you’re far apart in your political views.

    I can see how people can change their ideas and drift apart so that there is not much they can agree on. I know when you are getting to know someone that you don’t carry around a checklist of your political or religious beliefs but certainly things are discussed so issues are not a surprise. Well, I say that. My sister was surprised her ex-husband was an atheist, after all, he went to church with her for Christmas and Easter. I find discussing books and ideas is a fine way to have you pegged as being “wrong” about something so possible incompatibilites are revealed early. And just how disagreements are discussed can reveal red flags. Or else discussing books and ideas outs me as a nerd and thus uninteresting.

  100. Jeff Chalmers: dee,

    I consider myself an “independent” with respect to political parties.. The “alternate universe” that many seem to live in is absolutely breath taking, IMHO…

    I guess I can’t say this without sounding sanctimonious, but I have read or heard some just weird or hateful stuff and I felt glad that, whatever my shortcomings or blind spots, at least my mind and spirit isn’t filled with that – whatever the particular “that” happens to be. And yes, I know the story about the pharisee who is pleased with himself, that he isn’t like that “sinner” over there.

    Or it’s like hearing about one of the conspiracy cults and wondering how anyone can stand to be led down a convoluted rabbit trail that goes nowhere.

  101. dee: our love and charity towards one another

    Key.

    The one another is inclusive within the parameters of respect and dignity. It’s the bottom line, how Jesus said Christians are to be known and identified.

    Ex: Is complementarianism love one another as self? No. Neither is profiling, such as the “I’m just a 22-yr-old girl” who attacked a 14-yr-old boy in a hotel lobby for her misplaced, not stolen, phone. No clergy stealth intimacy with minors or parishioners is love. Nor is breaking into the Capitol with five deaths – not love, not justice, not even tough love. Etc.

  102. elastigirl: so he informs himself with twitter and youtube.

    A close family member is similarly (in my assessment) stuck in an unhealthy “group-think” dynamic.

    I think that a common form of cognitive bias is the desire to find confirmations of what one already believes to be true. Instead of “testing our hypotheses” by searching for contrary evidence (a good hypothesis will withstand such tests), we tend to search for supporting evidence, and then interpret that as proof of the validity of the hypothesis.

    Of course, limiting one’s sources of information to those that advance the preferred hypothesis will not provide much in the way of useful tests.

    Without meaning to be contentious, I think it’s valid to note that “proof by accumulation of consistent evidences” is basically a standard procedure in theology (at least in my perception of how theology is practiced in the theological tribes I have had opportunity to observe). Every system has difficulties with parts of the textual evidence, but instead of treasuring these anomalies as pointers to problems in the systems, they tend to be ignored or discounted, or specially-pled away, on the strength of the preponderance of other evidence that is understood to favor the preferred system. That doesn’t work in physics, but it seems to be SOP in theology.

    Back to real-life; not sure what can be done to persuade people who are deeply invested in preferred understandings of the world. We can, ourselves, attempt to maintain a fundamental commitment to “what is actually true — whatever that may turn out to be”, and model open-ness to persuasion when presented with trustworthy evidence that is contrary to our current beliefs. That can be socially costly, if one’s mental model of “What is actually true” diverges from the model that is favored in one’s circle of family and friends.

    As has been affirmed by others, “in all things, charity”

  103. Michael in UK: Mr J occasionally writes in shorthand, but so do others in the threads, a lot. This is why issues need unpacking. Both Johnson and Macarthur are rubbishing Holy Spirit in identical fashion

    The longer versions:
    1 Peter 5:8 “Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.” – Notice that soberness is directly linked with being aware of things going on behind what we do see. H.U.G. occasionally mocks some of us here not bothering to stop at the rubbish false leaders. He mocks me all the time as if J Mac was right and their is no spirits or Holy Spirit.

    Eph. 6:11, “Put on the full armor of God, so that you can make your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore take up the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you will be able to stand your ground, and having done everything, to stand.” It is scripture straight up. To claim to be a Christian but to choose to ignore this is to make yourself stupid, drunken, stripped of armor and one of those who are getting blown around with all of the false conspiracy theories.

  104. Muff Potter: Does your husband allow you the same courtesy?

    Sometimes he does.

    In our decades of marriage, our perspectives have grown apart, and I don’t think we’ll ever see things eye-to-eye again. I wish he would listen to me, but I can’t change him or his views. He’s probably thinking the same thing about me at this very moment. 🙂

  105. Jacob,

    “I have read or heard some just weird or hateful stuff and I felt glad that, whatever my shortcomings or blind spots, at least my mind and spirit isn’t filled with that – whatever the particular “that” happens to be. And yes, I know the story about the pharisee who is pleased with himself, that he isn’t like that “sinner” over there.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    integrity of kindness and honesty are their own rewards. they feel good. no problem in allowing yourself to feel that. as i see it.

  106. dee: I’ve decided that there is no party that represents me.

    I expect both major parties, third parties, and independents to offer ideas worth discussing, and candidates worth voting for.

    When people reject their own lifelong party but won’t even consider voting for somebody else, what happens?

  107. Friend,

    I’ve been “protest” voting 3rd party (whichever of the alternatives is least incompatible with my policy preferences) for years.

    I think that the more fundamental problem is not the behavioral response of people abandoning the traditional duopoly parties, but rather that the duopoly is not highly sensitive to the interests of the people who are being asked to vote. I think that this is a plausible interpretation of the near success of an insurgent candidate in one of the major parties in 2016, and the actual success of an insurgent candidate in the other major party that year.

    At the risk of stimulating a contentious policy debate, I have read that “M4A” is favored by a substantial majority of voters affiliated with one of the parties and a significant minority in the other party. Yet this is not high on the policy agenda of either party. It would probably be a “winner” from an elections standpoint. I think that examples like this could be multiplied.

    I interpret Dee’s remark that neither party represents her to be simply an observation of the current state of affairs and, to the extent that this is a widespread sentiment (I suspect that it is), I think that the problem lies more within the parties than in the electorate.

  108. Paul K: They’re filling their heads with Fulan Gong propaganda through the Epoch Times and Charismatic extremism through Dutch Sheets along with other sources. It is heart-breaking.

    Chinese Buddhist extremism plus Christian Charismatic extremism…
    What’s the common factor?

    …traded the life-giving gospel for far-right political narratives and Charismatic Dungeons & Dragons fantasy spiritual warfare nonsense.

    As a gamer who managed to dodge the blast of The Satanic Panic, these guys are LIve Action Fantasy Role-Playing (like Douggie ESQUIRE was cosplaying) but not only won’t they admit to it, they eagerly denounce actual D&D gamers as “SAY-TANN-IC!”

    Let me clue you in:
    * When I was heavily into Dee & Dee (the “Old School” days), I DIDN’T THINK IT WAS REAL. I’ve always like fantasy fiction both high and low, and this was a DIY extension of that.
    * When I was in Furry Fandom, I DIDN’T THINK FURRIES WERE REAL. (Though I DID wish these creatures could be given reality instead of imagination, like the end of the story that gave me my handle.)
    * During my recent sojourn in Bronydom, I DIDN’T THINK EQUESTRIA AND ITS PONIES WERE REAL.
    * It is only the Christian Witchfinders-General who thought it was real. (example, “Dark Dungeons” by Jack Chick) THINK ABOUT THAT.

    Actually, the fantasy elements (such as Dungeons, Dragons, Furries, and Ponies) act as a firewall against going off the deep end “into a fantasy world”. Because they are definitely a FICTIONAL background. Unlike Forks, WA or Q-Anon’s DC. With these, the RL backgrounds allow you to immerse yourself further. Augmented Reality like Pokemon-Go instead of clearly fictional/virtual reality.

    I KNOW a certain purple unicorn from Ponyville Library is NOT going to show up on my doorstep like a Harlequin Romance stud to a bored housewife. Ponyville, Equestria is NOT a real place. Forks WA is, blurring the reality enough to augment it with a Sparkly Vampire Stud. Washington DC is, blurring the reality enough to augment it with a Vast Conspiracy headed by Satan himself. In both cases, inviting you to cast yourself as the Author Self-Insert Mary Sue Hero. Linked into REALITY.

  109. dee:
    Jeff Chalmers,

    I’ve decided that there is no party that represents me.

    Then as happened in Poland after Gorbachev’s 1989 Fire Sale, you could start your own Party. With only one member.

  110. elastigirl:
    Wild Honey,

    “A family member (who up until a year ago I considered sane and reasonable) has called covid “the greatest threat to personal liberty this country has ever seen.” 2020 has exposed a lot of cracks, in individuals and in systems.”
    ++++++++++++

    sigh….i sleep next to one.funny how politics never really came up in our relationship until now.

    any suggestions for how to deal with a surprise political mr. hyde?

    Honestly, I’ve been gaining a lot from others’ insights to your question.

    The relationship I’m struggling with is my dad, not my husband. At first, I’d attempt questions when he’d say something bizarre. Now, I just change the topic. I could parse all the places I think his fear and anger is coming from, but I’ve realized he’s not going to be “persuaded” by logic, just feel attacked (which is only going make him dig in his heels more firmly. Yes, that’s where I get it from…)

    I found this post by Julie Anne really helpful a couple years ago when I was ready to leave our former cult-like church but my husband wasn’t. Maybe it will help you, too.

    https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/08/02/help-my-family-member-or-close-friend-is-trapped-in-a-high-controlling-church-or-cult-how-can-i-encourage-them-to-leave/

  111. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Yes, being freed from totalitarianism meant the Polish people could embrace democracy and freedom of expression. I was there. Things have taken a step backwards in recent years but I’m pleased to see President Wales’s is still speaking out.

  112. Jacob: Or it’s like hearing about one of the conspiracy cults and wondering how anyone can stand to be led down a convoluted rabbit trail that goes nowhere.

    Like Rapture Ready types waiting out the last minutes before Armageddon, they’re Important Players in a Cosmic-Level Game, and Find it All Very Exciting.
    https://www.axios.com/qanon-video-game-cbbacb1e-969c-4f07-93cd-69e41bc6feeb.html
    Being the Illuminati who “Know What’s REALLY Going On” makes them Important.
    And (like Rapture Ready) this is a Game of literally COSMIC Importance.

  113. Lowlandseer:
    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Yes, being freed from totalitarianism meant the Polish people could embrace democracy and freedom of expression. I was there. Things have taken a step backwards in recent years but I’m pleased to see President Walenss’s is still speaking out.

    My point was that in the first few years the Communist Party was still able to wield a lot of clout (even with Solidarity ascendant); they were a large party with an established political machine. All the splinter Parties that popped up (including those with only one member) were too small to make much of a difference.

    It was a lot like the theoretical end state of Protestantism with all those One True Church of Ones cancelling each other out.

  114. Lowlandseer: Yes, being freed from totalitarianism meant the Polish people could embrace democracy and freedom of expression.

    Another point is that Christians in Power can be just as prone to totalitarianism; look at all the churches that “Got famous” on this blog. Both Christians and Communists are Apocalyptic movements claiming a Cosmic-Level One True Way; give a lot of those churches POWER and they could get just as bloodthirsty for The Cause, Cleansing and Purifying the Face of the Earth.

    All the Power of the State, just in the name of Christ (as defined by Apostle Dear Leader and his clique of Hand-picked Elders) instead of Communism.

    That subject — “Christian Nationalism” — is a major topic over at Wondering Eagle these days.

  115. Wild Honey,

    I haven’t seen a lot of news from other states but this unrest was put down in 4 hours. Nobody showed up the next day and disrupted the clean up. This wasn’t a coup, it was criminal trespass by unruly trick or treaters. They should be prosecuted to full extent of the law.
    It was a clown show of the most unfunny sort.
    There should be a deep into the security procedures and how the barriers (such as they were) we’re breached. The clowns looked better armoured than the police. Where was the riot gear? Surely the capital police have it.
    Not sure if they have it in DC but officers in riot gear on horseback would have effective. I saw officers on horseback used to great effect during an unruly football game in Liverpool.

  116. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Unfortunately, that scenario holds for many human “groups”… that is the “genius” of messy democracy… not one “group” or branch of gov’t has all the power…
    But, when “truth” and “facts” goes out the window, we can’t even talk… 🙁

  117. Jack: I haven’t seen a lot of news from other states but this unrest was put down in 4 hours. Nobody showed up the next day and disrupted the clean up. This wasn’t a coup, it was criminal trespass by unruly trick or treaters. They should be prosecuted to full extent of the law.

    I think largely peaceful protests are supposed to include arson, looting, brick throwing, etc.

  118. Headless Unicorn Guy: I think How Few Remain started as a reaction to flak he took about GotS. HFR and its series is a “What If?” about the USA/CSA becoming like a couple European countries always at each others’ throats, where peace is just an interval to re-arm for the next war

    I only read the first 3. My hometown gets invaded by the Americans.

    In 1995 Quebec nearly voted to leave Canada. When I was a kid, there was a plethora of novels about the disintegration of the confederation. And about American invasion. Heck, my grade 8 social studies textbook started with a scenario where Canada is annexed by America.

    About 5 years ago Brian K Vaughan wrote the Image comic series “we stand on guard” about a band of Canadian insurgents fighting overwhelming odds against US invaders.

    Depending on who you speak to, Canada has been on the verge of collapse for the last 50 years.

    We’re still here.

    America will be too.

  119. Oldster: In our decades of marriage, our perspectives have grown apart, and I don’t think we’ll ever see things eye-to-eye again.

    Mrs. Muff and me have 4 decades into our marriage. It’s only survived because we have learned that it’s okay to lead separate lives under the same roof. What’s the alternative? Divorce? Split up the property? At our ages, the answer is: don’t be stupid. We’ve learned that it’s okay to have separate views, separate visions, and separate whatevers, so long as the common ground we both have forms a stable platform of pragmatic living.

  120. Jack: This wasn’t a coup, it was criminal trespass by unruly trick or treaters.

    Trick or treaters?

    A man has been charged with bringing 11 molotov cocktails. A disguised guy had a large bunch of plastic handcuffs attached to his belt. Three IEDs were planted by an unidentified man. The mob was cursing at the police. They put up a gibbet. They stole police shields and shattered windows. They stole documents from evacuated offices. They were literally hunting the vice president of the United States, as well as the speaker of the House and the majority and minority leaders of the Senate. They trapped a police officer in an elevator. Another police officer died.

    But don’t take my word for it. Check out the FBI’s website:

    https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info

  121. Friend,

    Never said they were the fun variety. As I’ve said previously, far right role players jacked up on Turner Diaries fantasy.

    They’re dangerous but not to the overall stability of the United States.

    Prosecute to the full extent of the law for crimes they committed.

    But Americans have survived worse than this.

  122. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Yes all very true. I can’t remember the exact saying but it was something along the lines of “They(the Communists) only changed into business suits” . When The head of state propaganda reappeared as the “owner” of tv and radio stations, the markets were flooded with toilet rolls bearing his face. Others became “industrialists” suddenly became very wealthy indeed.

    I disagree with your comparison of Christianity and Communism. IMO they are polar opposites – one message is genuinely “from above”, the other is a man made replacement. Their origins, message and ends are different. The only common denominator is fallen man who frequently chooses to rail against Christ and claim the throne for himself.

  123. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    You’ve nailed it!

    I’ve been a part of Christian fantasy worlds, too. I spent seven years at IHOP-KC waiting for a worldwide revival that didn’t happen and will never happen. Each year, we’d have an anniversary celebration in which Mike Bickle would tell us fantastic stories of Paul Cain predicting earthquakes and Bob Jones predicting a comet. Looking back, Bickle never provided any evidence except his own recollection. I have serious doubts that any of the events he described actually happened. Bickle was living in a fantasy world in which he was the center, and he was talented at sucking other people into it. He was the Dungeon Master, but he thought it was real.

    In my opinion, I lacked knowledge of my significance in Christ. In the Charismatic fantasy world, significance is seen in those who appear to have prophetic gifts, entrepreneurial gifts, musical gifts, or any gift which seems to indicate an especially close relationship to God. These are the important people. But, in Christ, I know that even the most seemingly insignificant action, like that of giving a cup of water to a child, is significant in God’s eyes. That will be remembered, even as Bickle and his inflated fantasies are forgotten by the world and God.

    So many Christians, lacking depth of knowledge regarding their identity in Christ, allow themselves to be subjugated to Christ-imposters, antichrists, who are more than happy to give them a new identity – an identity in themselves. Recently I’ve been intrigued by the apostle Paul’s idea of authority being expressed in head-coverings, and the red MAGA hats seen at Trump rallies. For some, but not all, that hat is an expression of their identity in Trump – they are Christian Warriors fighting for their leader against the forces of evil.

  124. Jack,

    This was a coup attempt. It was a disorganized, unsuccessful attempt, but it was a coup attempt. The Trump loyalists who stormed the Capitol were attempting to usurp the will of the American people and install Trump as their leader. Some even attempted to lower the American flag and replace it with the Trump campaign banner. If Trump had the ability to rally the police and military to his cause, and both of these institutions stood down and helped the transition, we would be waking up in a very different America. According to his claims, Trump believes he won the election. In his mind, the American government is corrupt and illegitimate and he alone should rule the American people. If our institutions weren’t as strong as they currently are, Trump would be President. Look at what Putin has done to Russian democracy. Read the books “Red Notice” and “The New Tsar”. I am not under the illusion something similar could not happen here.

  125. Headless Unicorn Guy: And (as I pointed out above), similarities between Q-Anon and a Maasively Multiplayer Role-Playing Game (with puzzle-solving emphasis).
    https://medium.com/curiouserinstitute/a-game-designers-analysis-of-qanon-580972548be5

    Thank you for providing the link to the article on Massively Multiplayer Role-Playing Games. The information contained in the article can be applied (in any number of ways) to my own (personal) past, as well as to past (and present) global circumstances.

  126. Lowlandseer: IMO they are polar opposites – one message is genuinely “from above”, the other is a man made replacement. Their origins, message and ends are different. The only common denominator is fallen man who frequently chooses to rail against Christ and claim the throne for himself.

    Or maybe the common denominator is the humans who cooperate in an unholy union of state power with religion. Heads of state see those crowds of worshipers and want their allegiance. The USSR drove the Russian Orthodox Church from power with the fall of tsarism, but now Putin has allied the church with himself.

  127. Jack: They’re dangerous but not to the overall stability of the United States.

    Prosecute to the full extent of the law for crimes they committed.

    But Americans have survived worse than this.

    The country will survive, but at what cost to “Americans?” Political upheaval can and does result in actual death and disenfranchisement. China, Russia, Rwanda, Germany, etc all experienced political upheaval in the 20th century alone that started small and in the end resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths. While I am hopeful current events will not progress to that level of brutality, it DOES need to be guarded against on both an individual and systemic level.

  128. Wild Honey: I am hopeful current events will not progress to that level of brutality

    I, too, am hopeful for the best in the days ahead … that the current level of tension will subside. My concern is that the far-right and far-left have been whipped to a frenzy with recent events and we may see more upheaval in the nearterm. Twentieth century Americans would have gotten over this for the good of the country … I’m not sure some 21st century characters will. Social media is much to blame.

  129. Headless Unicorn Guy: And (as I pointed out above), similarities between Q-Anon and a Maasively Multiplayer Role-Playing Game (with puzzle-solving emphasis).
    https://medium.com/curiouserinstitute/a-game-designers-analysis-of-qanon-580972548be5

    Thank you for the link to the article on Massively Multiplayer Role-Playing Games. The article contains information I can apply to my own (personal) past, as well as to global circumstances (past and present).

    (I posted this comment earlier, but I think I improperly exited my web browser…..very big sigh.)

  130. Samuel Conner,

    “Every system has difficulties with parts of the textual evidence, but instead of treasuring these anomalies as pointers to problems in the systems, they tend to be ignored or discounted, or specially-pled away, on the strength of the preponderance of other evidence that is understood to favor the preferred system. That doesn’t work in physics, but it seems to be SOP in theology.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++

    in my lifetime in evangelical church, this is called “faith”.

    (well, faith in the bible. but really, faith in one’s favored interpretation. which is likely to be faith in what a professional christian says)

  131. Samuel Conner,

    “Back to real-life; not sure what can be done to persuade people who are deeply invested in preferred understandings of the world. We can, ourselves, attempt to maintain a fundamental commitment to “what is actually true — whatever that may turn out to be””
    ++++++++++++++++++

    i think i can appeal to my life partner with reason (when there’s been a few days of no politics and there’s more sobriety).

    An approach i’m considering: asking us both to articulate what the criteria is for that very question, “what is actually true? — whatever that may turn out to be”.

    to get the ball rolling in my mind, Samuel (& anyone who wants to repond),

    how would your articulate your criteria for “what is actually true”?

  132. Friend: maybe the common denominator is the humans who cooperate in an unholy union of state power with religion

    The 21st century church could learn a lesson from the 1st century church. The early church had no political and social power, but had spiritual power. The 1st century church turned the world upside down as it spread the Gospel of Christ, it moved with spiritual power … the 21 century church is flailing at the branches, rather than moving in its intended groove within the Kingdom of God here on earth. It has forsaken spiritual power for a powerless agenda of this world.

  133. elastigirl,

    It might be that it is more helpful at the outsET to agree about even more fundamental “process” questions, such as, “is it conceivable that evidence could come to light that would provide grounds to doubt what you currently believe about this …”

    If the person can conceive of that possibility, then one could explore, “what kind of evidence would you consider to be grounds for doubt…”, or “can you suggest, for the sake of discussion, a notional example of such an item of evidence that would provide grounds for doubt …”. This would give a sense of how fragile or impermeable to analysis the person’s views are.

    I say this because it seems to me important to understand how strongly the person is committed to their current vision of “what is actually true.” Depending on the strength of that commitment, one’s ‘strategy’ for further conversation might require adjustment, or it might be given up as a ‘hopeless case.’

    Perhaps one could start with the question of whether “epistemic humility” is a trait that should be regarded to be a strength or a weakness. Ideally, humility would be acknowledged to be preferable to a hermetically impenetrable view, on the simple precautionary principle that an unalterable view, if mistaken, could lead one into danger.

    I also think that it might be useful, if possible, to distinguish between “evidence for” and “proof of.” Proof is clearly a higher standard and requires that competing explanations be ruled out. The mistaking of “evidence” for “proof” is, I think, a pretty common cognitive error (and one that I’m sure I have committed many times, particularly in theological reflection but also in other areas).

    In my own conversations with a close family member who I believe is unhealthily fascinated with CTs, I agree at every point that I reasonably can — citing my own reasons — but object when I think the person is drawing conclusions not founded in good evidence or logic, citing contrary evidence when I know of it. I doubt that I am having a major influence, but at least communication has not broken down.

  134. elastigirl,

    Further to my last, another possibly useful communication strategy would be to ask yourself the question, “what kinds of evidence (or specific items of evidence) would it take to persuade me of the validity of the view (held by the other person) that I am currently skeptical of…”

    The comparison of your and your partner’s evidentiary standards might promote mutual understanding and peace, and provide a basis for fruitful further conversation.

    “Epistemic humility” requires the recognition of the possibility (however remote that may appear) that one is oneself mistaken. And this posture of humility is a sign to the other, whom one hopes to persuade, of one’s own good faith.

  135. Paul K: This was a coup attempt. It was a disorganized, unsuccessful attempt, but it was a coup attempt.

    This explanation is missing something, because the people who stormed the Capitol appeared to have no end goal other than disruption, which they achieved. There was no way they would have been able to actually accomplish their coup, even if they could have found a way to occupy the Capitol indefinitely. Did they mean to steal the ballots as a way to delay certification? It almost looks like it was designed to shut down republican opposition to certification, which it did. And it also looks like it was designed to create a plausible reason to clamp down on social media sites, and discredit pretty much everyone on the right. I am hoping better information will be coming out that will make sense.

  136. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    Agreed, not a coup attempt in the conventional sense of “coup”

    I do wonder whether it was intended to pressure or intimidate Congress (or the VP, presiding over the procedures) into adjusting the election outcome.

    Ian Welsh (at his eponymous ‘blog) has observed that this incident does suggest that it would be surprisingly easy for a determined group of people to enter the Capitol and “remove” significant numbers of legislators. Thankfully that did not happen, but it is conceivable that it could have; it would only have taken one person with an automatic weapon and several high capacity magazines.

    There really needs to be a shake-up in the CP force. The ‘precautionary principle’ was not observed in the management of the crowds that day.

  137. Ken F (aka Tweed): And it also looks like it was designed to create a plausible reason to clamp down on social media sites, and discredit pretty much everyone on the right.

    Thousands of Americans, brought to town by one person and four demonstration permits, storm the United States Capitol. They pridefully and brazenly livestream themselves and wave to the cameras as they loot the building. They put up a rope knotted in a specific way, and hunt for specific people inside the building. Five lives end, and others are wounded. There is sickening video of the crowd tormenting and crushing a young law enforcement officer, who fortunately survives.

    I would think that these people discredited themselves by their own actions. If they did conspire, it was against themselves.

  138. Friend: I would think that these people discredited themselves by their own actions. If they did conspire, it was against themselves.

    I most certainly agree with this. The instigators need to be found and prosecuted to the max (and someone better be finding out how they got in so easily). But it appears to be a fairly small number of instigators compared with the tens of thousands who showed up for the rally. Painting everyone at the rally with the same brush is a huge mistake.

    This piece of history might or might not be applicable, but it demonstrates how a small number of bad actors can create catastrophic responses:
    https://www.britannica.com/event/Reichstag-fire

  139. Ken F (aka Tweed): it appears to be a fairly small number of instigators compared with the tens of thousands who showed up for the rally. Painting everyone at the rally with the same brush is a huge mistake.

    I figure a lot of otherwise good Christian folks got caught up in the moment and made mistakes they greatly regret. I wish certain segments of the church were as passionate about the Great Commission as they are about political mission.

  140. Max,

    Martin Niemöller, author of the iconic First they came…, actually supported the new National Socialist Party as they first came to prominence. This was because of the vehemence with which they opposed the Communists. Since the Communists themselves opposed any form of religion, Niemöller reasoned along the lines of “my enemy’s enemy is my friend“. His views, of course, changed radically when he saw what the National Socialists really were.

    I realise this is an approximation, but if you exchange “opposed the Communists” for “opposed homosexualityandabortion”, you get a similar black hole of Christian support today.

  141. Max: I figure a lot of otherwise good Christian folks got caught up in the moment and made mistakes they greatly regret.

    This is probably true of some, but the crowd had been wooed for a long long time, and encouraged and praised and told how much they are loved. The more determined rioters had also shown up at previous demonstrations and perhaps left emboldened, with impunity.

    Honestly, though, who among us would walk into the Capitol during a riot? Most people don’t even cut the tags off their mattresses.

  142. Here’s one outdoor photo of the crowd. It took them a long time and effort to mass outside the Capitol and get inside. This is NOT a few bad apples and a few other people caught up with enthusiasm.

    I’m having trouble accepting that it’s wrong to discredit them.

    What good idea do these people represent?

    https://images.app.goo.gl/Y8DfQrzde1FobfyX9

  143. Max,

    Max: “I figure a lot of otherwise good Christian folks got caught up in the moment and made mistakes they greatly regret”
    ++++++++++++++

    ‘mistake’ is too soft a word.

    mistakes were not made. they weren’t just there by mistake. they deliberately planned and invested a lot –on purpose– to put themselves there.

    everything about Wednesday (including the tens of thousands at the rally) demonstrates lots of deliberate planning, lots of investment (with time, money, who they willingly allowed to influence them over the course of time).

    scathing errors of judgement & willful failures are a starting places for descriptors.

  144. Max: I figure a lot of otherwise good Christian folks got caught up in the moment and made mistakes they greatly regret.

    I suspect quite a few foolishly got caught up in the moment through a combination of group think, confirmation bias, loss aversion, euphoria of the moment, and lack of discernment. I don’t buy the narrative that everyone there was part of the coup. Unfortunately, a small minority can tip a crowd (see Malcom Gladwell’s book “Tipping Point”).

    There are also quite a lot of eyewitness reports that the West side of the Capitol was wide open and police were letting people inside. If true, that certainly made a bad situation much worse.

  145. Nick Bulbeck: Martin Niemöller, author of the iconic First they came…, actually supported the new National Socialist Party as they first came to prominence. This was because of the vehemence with which they opposed the Communists.

    Lenin started the German Antifa movement to topple the German Kaiser. Had it not been for the communist Antifa opposing the Weimar Republic after WWI, the National Socialist Party would never have gotten traction.

  146. Friend: shown up at previous demonstrations and perhaps left emboldened, with impunity

    I will be interested to know, if it ever becomes known, to what degree there may be some connection with the state capitol demonstrations earlier in the year. IIRC, some of these involved people pushing into the respective state capitol buildings.

    Back then, IIRC the protest motive was related to objections to state lock downs, and may of the protesters had an economic motive/concern, that the lock-downs were hurting their small enterprises. IIRC there was also a measure of “encouragement from above”; “liberate [state XYZ]” is a slogan that comes to mind.

    I’ve seen it suggested that the protesters cannot have been people without some means; many travelled a considerable distance to participate — basically the same socio-economic ‘stratum’ as was protesting the state lock-downs.

    I’m reluctant to interpret a mass conspiracy intent on violence, but social media does simplify protest recruitment, and in any sufficiently large group, there is likely to be people intent on promoting chaos.

  147. Friend: I’m having trouble accepting that it’s wrong to discredit them.

    All summer and spring we witnessed politicians and celebrities praising protests (often violent) in cities throughout the US. This does not justify what happened on Wed, but it’s hard to see how it did not contribute. Other than what happened in the Capitol building, it was not violent – no fires, no looting, no vandalism, no occupied zones, no businesses burned down, and no lingering problems in the days following. Given the number of people there, if they really had intended to cause major harm they would have and there was nothing to stop them. If the whole crowd was so violent, why was it so peaceful everywhere but the Capitol building?

  148. Friend: You’re blaming Antifa for the Third Reich?

    The Third Reich capitalized on the instability caused by the communists. People wrongly believed the nationalist socialist party would save them.

  149. Ken F (aka Tweed): the National Socialist Party would never have gotten traction.

    I question this. Communists were just one of the enemies. I believe that Herr Adolf’s largest grievance (and one that resonated with many in the population) was the humiliation of the Versailles treaty and the economic punishment to which Germany was subjected by its terms. Even if there had been no internal enemies, the national socialists’ rhetoric against external enemies would have been appealing to many.

  150. elastigirl: scathing errors of judgement & willful failures are a starting places for descriptors.

    Thank you. I’m rolling my eyes so hard I’m going to break my but t.

  151. Friend: You’re blaming Antifa for the riot in the Capitol?

    No. I don’t think anyone can state with certainty who is behind what happened a few days ago. The situation in post-WWI Germany was not exactly the same as ours, but it rhymes.

  152. Friend: You’re blaming Antifa for the riot in the Capitol?

    Also, the Antifa movement in the US was inspired by the German Antifa movement but there is no direct connection.

  153. Samuel Conner: Even if there had been no internal enemies, the national socialists’ rhetoric against external enemies would have been appealing to many.

    When you hear your children cry themselves to sleep on empty bellies at night because you cannot even afford bread,it’s very appealing…

  154. Samuel Conner: I question this.

    My wife is German. Her parents were young children in Germany during WW2, so the current events hit close to home because of the similarities. There were certainly more than just a few factors involved in Germany, but the presense of Antifa was a huge factor that cannot be diamissed because the populous desperately wanted relief from Antifa’s domestic terror.

  155. Ken F (aka Tweed): I don’t think anyone can state with certainty who is behind what happened a few days ago.

    The main organizer, all of the speakers, and the four groups that applied for permits to demonstrate, are a matter of public record, extensively created by themselves.

    But maybe you have direct knowledge that this was a great plan that went awry because of a tiny handful of unknown instigators. Did you go to this event? I’m asking seriously.

  156. Friend: Did you go to this event? I’m asking seriously.

    I did not go to the event, I had no desire to be there, and if I had been in the city I would have avoided it. I hate political crowds.

    Do you have proof that the people who filed the permits were among the instigators? I have not seen any reports that the people who organized the rally were the same people who broke into the Capitol. I am hoping this gets a thorough investigation and all lawbreakers get prosecuted.

  157. Ken F (aka Tweed): The situation in post-WWI Germany was not exactly the same as ours, but it rhymes.

    It’s hard for people today to understand Germany of 1917-1920. No mass media. Starvation or at least severe malnutrition in some areas. NO MASS MEDIA. You only got news from travelers coming through town or your local paper. And the local paper got its news from the telegraph which was under government control.

    There were victory parades across Germany when the troops came home. After all, the Allies never got to German soil. The population was told the Allies had given up and sued for peace. So when the treaty was signed by politicians (the top of the German government at the end of the war was all military) it was seen as a betrayal. But we won! Why are we paying them and giving up all kinds of territory?

    WWII was almost a given as the treaty basically was a “lets all take a half time and see who can come back to the game in a position to win”. Unspoken but what many seemed to believe.

    Then Hitler came along and told the German’s that they had been wronged by their government and he would make Germany the lead country of Europe and end all the foreign governments melding in Germany’s affairs and …

    And I know my comments compress a very complicated history into a few sentences.

  158. In other news, the Lord has revealed to me that I’m not a prophet. I’m not sure whether I’m supposed to tell anyone that, though.

  159. elastigirl: Max: “I figure a lot of otherwise good Christian folks got caught up in the moment and made mistakes they greatly regret”
    ++++++++++++++

    everything about Wednesday (including the tens of thousands at the rally) demonstrates lots of deliberate planning, lots of investment (with time, money, who they willingly allowed to influence them over the course of time).

    It’s been a 4-year long “moment” in time.

  160. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    O to the contrary, several of the organizers stayed away from the Capitol, and some of them hid from the crowd inside the Capitol. It’s almost as if people feared the very mob they coddled and egged on for days and weeks.

    Here’s the thing:

    If there are commies in my town, I don’t have to become a skin head.

    And vice versa.

    It’s not a binary choice.

    There are better ways to live, and you know it.

    We all know it.

  161. Friend: It’s not a binary choice.

    Exactly. I feel like there are people on both extremes pouring gas on the fire. We need everyone to settle down, take a deep breath, and find ways to pour water on the fire before it burns us all down. A good first step is to not assume that everyone on the other side is an extremist. We need moderates in the middle (left or right does not matter) to work together better so that the extremes won’t be able to dominate the discussion. I think we can all do better.

    And just for the record, I have never donated time or money to any political campaign, and the last time I remember attending a speech by a politician was when our boy scout troop went to a speech by President Ford. I have never been to a political rally. I am not trying to defend the rally or what happened in the Capitol. At the same time, I believe many are making it out to be much more than what it was in ways that are too much like the burning of the German Riechstag. The fact that many are celebrating the shutdown of social media accounts and platforms should send a chill down everyone’s spine, for if they have the power to shutdown the president and his supporters, they have the power to shut down you.

  162. Ken F (aka Tweed): I suspect quite a few foolishly got caught up in the moment through a combination of group think, confirmation bias, loss aversion, euphoria of the moment, and lack of discernment … a small minority can tip a crowd

    Friend,

    The photo that Friend provided paints the picture well. It’s hard to believe all these folks came with an agenda to desecrate the Capitol. But I’m looking at it through an old man’s eyes which have seen a better day and a better people, more respectful of our government. It seems that Americans (even those who call themselves Christian) are capable of anything these days. Then I’m reminded Scripture says that even the elect can be deceived.

  163. Max: It’s hard to believe all these folks came with an agenda to desecrate the Capitol.

    If they did come with an agenda of destruction, why was there so little of it? I have not seen anyone explain why there was so little damage. No fires. No businesses burned to the ground. No looting. No police vehicles destroyed. The rhetoric does not match the actual damage. That said, I think it was foolish to participate in the rally, but not illegal, seditious, or treasonous.

  164. NC Now: So when the treaty was signed by politicians (the top of the German government at the end of the war was all military) it was seen as a betrayal. But we won! Why are we paying them and giving up all kinds of territory?

    After WWI The allies destroyed the German economy and hauled away its industrial capacity. Had they not so thoroughly destroyed and demoralized the country there mignt mot have been a Third Reich. Desperate situations lead to desperate solutions. I suppose that is one of the reasons the US spent so much effort to rebuild Germany and Japan after WWII.

  165. Friend: O to the contrary, several of the organizers stayed away from the Capitol, and some of them hid from the crowd inside the Capitol.

    Do you have any links for this? I have not been able to find the relationship between the event organizers and the people doing the illegal activity. I’m not saying there is none, I just have not seen it.

  166. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    Like I said, it was a disorganized and unsuccessful coup attempt, but it was an attempt to overthrow the appointed governmental authorities all the same. It was not what we normally think of when we think of a coup – what comes to my mind is Putin’s political maneuvering or von Stauffenberger’s attempt to overthrow the Nazi regime. What happened on 1/6 was much less organized, more reminiscent of Hitler’s Beer Hall Putsch. But it was a coup attempt – just a seemingly pathetic one. However, Hitler overcame his trial and imprisonment and went on to appoint himself dictator. The Red Hats believe with all their hearts Trump is the rightful, legitimate, appointed leader, and they want him as President. Some of the reporting regarding what far-right activists are saying online is shocking, saying they will show up to Biden’s inauguration with a force no military can resist.

    Just because a half-naked guy in a Buffalo hat looks ridiculous doesn’t mean he wasn’t trying to overthrow the government. And he got as far as the Senate chamber! What if Trump was 30-years younger, craftier, and had been working for 15 years to to win the Army to his side? The next time we see Buffalo hat guy is when he’s the Secretary of the Interior.

    1/6 is dangerous to downplay. In America, the people grant politicians power. Politicians don’t take power for themselves.

  167. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    Part of the answer is simple. The rally speakers who encouraged the march did not go to the Capitol. The elected officials who encouraged the march were evacuated to safe rooms in the Capitol (along with many others in the building). None of them showed a face and tried to calm the crowd.

    The Capitol and grounds are a massive crime scene with thousands of actors and countless pieces of evidence. It will take a long time to identify all of the culpable. You might be interested in this video taken later in the evening by a Bloomberg reporter. The ominous zip-tie guy was among the more ordinary rally attenders, relaxing in the lobby of the DC Grand Hyatt.

    https://twitter.com/WilliamTurton/status/1346980282243678209?s=20

  168. Ken F (aka Tweed): If they did come with an agenda of destruction, why was there so little of it? I have not seen anyone explain why there was so little damage. No fires. No businesses burned to the ground. No looting. No police vehicles destroyed. The rhetoric does not match the actual damage.

    There was extensive damage to a historic building that belongs to all Americans. Paintings and sculptures hit with gases and fire extinguisher contents. A presidential bust smeared with blood. Original doorways, shutters, and windows shattered. Benches and other pieces of furniture shattered.

    Feces on the carpets. Ponder that.

    No looting? Maybe you didn’t read about the stolen documents and computer equipment taken from lawmakers’ offices. Items of national security might cost the nation more dearly than a burned car.

    At the risk of repeating myself, the mob inside the building was threatening to end the lives of specific people from both major parties. I trust you take that seriously, as it is not normal behavior.

    You keep implying that this wasn’t such a big deal. It was a huge deal, a blot on our history.

    Here is an article with lists of some national treasures damaged and destroyed, and a pic of helmeted marauders climbing on things.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/the-capitol-mob-desecrated-a-historical-workplace–and-left-behind-some-disturbing-artifacts/2021/01/08/e67b3c88-51d1-11eb-83e3-322644d82356_story.html

  169. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    As I said I only had a few sentences. But loss of territory, reparations, etc… all played into it. But from what I was told by people from Germany, the humiliation and sense of betrayal was the biggest thing to the “regular folk”. And after Hitler seemed to “fix” the economy (huge amounts of smoke and mirrors there) why not go along?

  170. Ken F (aka Tweed): The fact that many are celebrating the shutdown of social media accounts and platforms should send a chill down everyone’s spine, for if they have the power to shutdown the president and his supporters, they have the power to shut down you.

    Well, at one level they have the power to shut down everyone by simply going out of business and switching off their services. In reality, this wouldn’t really shut everyone down, though; folk would just go elsewhere.

    The recently-aired documentary The Social Dilemma articulates what, to my mind, is a much more serious worry about social media platforms. Namely, the most influential players (albeit not the only influential players) on them aren’t human, or even spam-bots; they’re the sophisticated, self-teaching algorithms in the background that learn what content gets the most clicks, and then promote and amplify it. Not surprisingly, the material that grabs the most attention and baits the most clicks is the material promising the most shocking, sensational and outrageous content. It is this, in large measure, that is driving the creation of dangerous online peer-group environments and thence the radicalisation of whole groups of people In Real Life.

    Freedom of speech is a strange thing in some ways. In the wrong hands, it’s just as dangerous as censorship. “The pen is mightier than the sword” is a centuries-old truism, and the more we see the terrible power of words, the more important it surely becomes for society to consider carefully how it makes available unlimited free swords.

  171. Nick Bulbeck: Freedom of speech is a strange thing in some ways. In the wrong hands, it’s just as dangerous as censorship. “The pen is mightier than the sword” is a centuries-old truism, and the more we see the terrible power of words, the more important it surely becomes for society to consider carefully how it makes available unlimited free swords.

    This may be true, but in the USA we have the First Amendment that prohibits the government from limiting free speech. Personally, I feel much better to err of the side of free speech as opposed to censorship.

  172. NC Now,

    My German wife confirmed what you wrote. She added that the role of Antifa was to create chaos, overthrow the government, and stir up the socialist population so that the communists could take over the government. The communist agitaters were sent by Lenin even before the war was over. The brownshirts were deployed to counteract antifa and to restore peace. The brownshirts were eventually dissolved and pulled into the SS and their leadership was executed because they were viewed as a threat. The demoralized and starving population was caught between the global socialists and the national socialists. The latter seemed better at the time. Had Lenin and Stalin not gotten involved, history could have turned out very different.

  173. “We need to have more peacemakers whose love and caring overcomes the divide.” (Dee)

    “Blessed are the makers and maintainers of peace, for they will express His character and be called the children of God.” (Matthew 5:9)

    May the Church of the Living God set this example to the world in the coming days. May we express His character as we seek to make and maintain peace in America. May we be known to Him as the children of God because we are peacemakers.

  174. Friend: Part of the answer is simple. The rally speakers who encouraged the march did not go to the Capitol. The elected officials who encouraged the march were evacuated to safe rooms in the Capitol (along with many others in the building).

    We might be talking past each other. I thought you were saying the people who organized the rally were directly involved in the violence against people and property. If this is true, they should be prosecuted to the full. But I am not aware of any direct connection. I did not watch the rally but I saw a few very brief clips from it. Some of the speakers made irresponsible speeches that could be dangerously misinterpreted, but I am not aware of any of speakers telling the crowd to break into, occupy, vandalize, or terrorize people or property in or around the Capitol. Nor am I aware of any speakers or organizers who participated in those activities. I did not hear them say anything more inflammatory than what politicians and celebrities on the other side said about riots in the spring and summer. This is why I am saying people on both extremes need to quit pouring gas on the fire. All speech that could be interpreted as a call to violence should be denounced.

  175. Friend: I replied, but the pugs need to inspect my ideas…

    Same thing happened to me a few minutes ago in my reply to NC Now. I try to be a good traveller, but every now and then I put wrong things in my luggage.

  176. Max: “Blessed are the makers and maintainers of peace, for they will express His character and be called the children of God.” (Matthew 5:9)

    Maybe they are blessed because they need it after getting shot at by both sides.

  177. Ken F (aka Tweed): Some of the speakers made irresponsible speeches that could be dangerously misinterpreted

    Do you think the speakers didn’t know better? Are you completely sure the speeches were MISinterpreted? Plenty of people in the US and around the world believe that the day unfurled as designed.

    You keep minimizing this disaster. Five (5) people died, but you omit in your comment that police cars and stores remained intact. “So little damage,” you write. And you are completely wrong about that.

  178. Friend: Plenty of people in the US and around the world believe that the day unfurled as designed.

    People can believe whatever they want, but was it true? If there was a coordinated design I hope and pray that investigations will reveal it and that the guilty will be prosecuted.

    Friend: You keep minimizing this disaster.

    This is my fault for communicating badly. What happened was disaster, without queation. And it could have been much worse in many scary ways. I am appalled that the Capitol was not better protected. And I am hoping for maximum prosecution for everyone who committed violence. But think how bad it could have been if all of the tens of thousands had been violent. I don’t think it is fair to lump them in with the people who purposely set out to do harm.

  179. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    Understood. Information is coming out about who funded travel, and how many state houses were struck at the same time. Reliable sources will emerge in the coming days. Peace.

  180. Friend,

    “Reliable sources will emerge in the coming days. Peace.”
    +++++++++++++++

    i hope it’s not bad to say i look forward to it (considering the tragedy). the reliable part, that is.

    it is unbearable to co-exist with people, all of us declaring truth and it being opposite things. things of great consequence.

    so hoping that ‘people’ recognize ‘reliable’. i mean at what point can one remain successful in life, let alone sane, while rejecting all sources of information except for twitter??

  181. Muff Potter: When you hear your children cry themselves to sleep on empty bellies at night because you cannot even afford bread,it’s very appealing…

    Yes.

    My German great-grandparents literally gave one of their children up for adoption in the 1930s because they couldn’t afford to feed all of them (grandpa had lost his job for refusing to join the Party). Instantly regretted it. So he joined the Party, found work, and claimed their child back.

    It is easy to pass judgment when we’re not in similar circumstances.

  182. Ken P.: This may be true, but in the USA we have the First Amendment that prohibits the government from limiting free speech.Personally, I feel much better to err of the side of free speech as opposed to censorship.

    Yes… and if we’re talking about Twitter cutting off the President, just an observation that Twitter is not a government agency. It is a business, choosing with whom it will do business.

  183. Wild Honey: My German great-grandparents literally gave one of their children up for adoption in the 1930s because they couldn’t afford to feed all of them (grandpa had lost his job for refusing to join the Party). Instantly regretted it. So he joined the Party, found work, and claimed their child back.

    This hits close to home. One of my wife’s grandfathers was disappeared by the party for the same reason.

  184. elastigirl: so hoping that ‘people’ recognize ‘reliable’. i mean at what point can one remain successful in life, let alone sane, while rejecting all sources of information except for twitter

    It’s disheartening to think that one has to dig into stories that are presented as “news” in order to assure oneself that the selection and presentation of material fairly represents what happened, and why, and is not being shaded in service of a narrative. I stopped paying attention to broadcast media long ago, as it seemed more interested in generating outrage (I assume in the interest of promoting viewership and ad revenue).

    Whatever one thinks of Matt Taibbi’s views on other matters, I think his interpretation of for-profit media in “Hate Inc” has merit.

    Perhaps the wisdom of the Old Testament could be helpful. Just as one is well-advised to select one’s companions carefully — don’t associate with hooligans and criminals; rather associate with the wise — one is well-advised to select one’s news and opinion (“interpretation of the meaning of the news”) sources carefully. And, having made choices, re-examine those from time to time, and consider running away from those that appear to be intentionally riling you. They probably aren’t doing that with your well-being in mind.

  185. Samuel Conner: Perhaps the wisdom of the Old Testament could be helpful. Just as one is well-advised to select one’s companions carefully — don’t associate with hooligans and criminals

    It’s clear that the “Save America” gathering was a mish mash of people and ideologies, including Christians there just to pray. But all who went knew there would be an ungodly mixture of folks on the Capitol grounds that fateful day, including “hooligans and criminals” whipped into a frenzy by unwise speeches to lead the charge – providing the muscle for the collective rebellion. As you note, it would have been prudent for believers to consider this and not be swept up by the madness – like get back on the bus and go home when the cursing started and fences were falling (IMO, thousands did just that).

    The OT warns about forbidden alliances:

    “You shall make no covenant with them … because they will make you sin against Me … it will surely be a snare to you.” (Exodus 23:32-33)

    Many who attended that day fell into the snare. Peaceful protestors in the crowd surely knew that what transpired was a great possibility given the heat of the moment … I hope they left when it started getting ugly.

  186. Wild Honey: Yes… and if we’re talking about Twitter cutting off the President, just an observation that Twitter is not a government agency. It is a business, choosing with whom it will do business.

    I was not referring to Twitter, just Nick’s comment. Please read my comment more carefully.

  187. Ken F (aka Tweed): People are rightly worried about the US becoming a dictatorship. In a dictatorship, is the dictator the one gets silenced, or the one who does the silencing?

    We are observing perhaps the greatest power struggle in America since the Civil War. As I’ve watched this unfold, a Scripture keeps popping to mind:

    “Every man’s way is right in his own eyes, But the Lord weighs and examines the hearts of people and their motives.” (Proverbs 21:2)

    After He’s done weighing and examining, I have a feeling we’ll see more clearly His hand in the days ahead. When America is “weighed in the balance, and found wanting”, does God really have an obligation to do anything about it? … or is His concern with the affairs of His Kingdom on earth and what is happening in it? … when judgment falls, it will begin in His House first. (Good Lord, TWW alone has reported on enough to judge!). Yep, the days ahead are going to get interesting, IMO. Brace yourself, folks.

  188. I learned early on that sometimes news reporting could not be trusted. In my early teens we had a “killing” in my school. 19 year boy of mixed heritage killed a 16 year old boy. The papers reported it as the unprovoked murder of a local hockey hero, an upstanding young man in contrast to the “killer” – a black music DJ. I know what happened – I was there. The younger boy and his friends had been making racial slurs against the fact that the older boys mother was white and father was black. They’d been pushing his buttons for a while so one day he had enough and the older boy punched the younger boy. The 16 year old had an aneurysm and was dead before he hit the ground. It was a time bomb that could have happened on the rink or any other activity. Charges were eventually dropped. The extenuating circumstances were never reported in the press. As an adult I cut my subscription to newspaper because of blatant bias in a mayoral race – going to far as to run a headline the week before the vote “Your Next Mayor” featuring their chosen candidate. The truth is not always out there so I choose multiple sources for my news and never, ever, trust videos forwarded to me from Youtube, Twitter and Facebook.

    Fake news has always been there. We can decry Facebook, Twitter, Google but back before these platforms in the eighties and early nineties the secretary at the hospital I worked in routinely posted “articles” forwarded via fax.

    And when I was real young there was pretty much 2 news papers and the CBC. The hometown “news” was mostly school sports events and garage sales – we never heard much about town politics (and for a long time there was “Mayor Bud” in charge – kept getting re-elected).

    With multiple platforms today it’s a double edged sword – a lot of fake stuff circulating but “big media” can be held more accountable – there have been stories where big media has been held to account – if I had a blog in 1986, I would have had a platform to discuss the story behind the “official narrative”.

    The lack and difficulty of challenging big media in the past led to some of the abuse that we read about today in TWW. Much has come out because of the ability to use the internet.

    Would TWW be effective as a mimeographed mail out pamphlet? Maybe but in the current format the potential reach is much wider for (arguably) less effort.

  189. Nick Bulbeck: In other news, the Lord has revealed to me that I’m not a prophet. I’m not sure whether I’m supposed to tell anyone that, though.

    The Lord has revealed to me that I am not a squirrel. Ok, it was not stated in so many words, more an observational implication.

  190. Max: We are observing perhaps the greatest power struggle in America since the Civil War. As I’ve watched this unfold, a Scripture keeps popping to mind:

    My assessment is that a large and previously disenfranchised demographic came out and voted in this election. This demographic challenged the voting “blocks” that have held sway for quite some time (ie the evangelical vote).

    A vocal segment of the challenged demographic is not taking this well and is seeking solace in conspiracy – because “we” just can’t have lost on legitimate means.

    What happened at the Capitol was a perfect storm of fear combined with an innate sense of entitlement. They were whipped up into a frenzy but I think how much frenzy took everyone (including the participants themselves) by surprise.

    Because the crowd traditionally has paid lip service to “law & order” and the constitution, law enforcement expected a lot of yelling and shouting and chanting and set up security accordingly – bias played a big part in the outcome.

    Those coordinating security left the frontline Capitol police woefully under equipped to deal the mob that showed up. Many police that I saw on the news did were not equipped with helmets or other PPE that would be expected for such a mob. If police were in full riot gear, backed by mounted police, national guard and firm barricades (not just portable railings) the intimidation factor would have kept this crowd a bay. At least if it got worse the police would have been equipped to deal with it. I believe this lack of foresight is responsible for the death of the Capitol police officer and contributed to the situation that led to the deaths of the other people.

    Was the rally planned – yes, I believe likeminded groups coordinated their efforts to attend via social but I don’t think it was a “conspiracy” with any one mastermind coordinating the effort.

    Was this really part of a grand plan to remove certain political voices from social media? No.

    Many of the participants got caught up in the moment – I don’t this was a coup. As others have mentioned, yes we need to be vigilant about our freedoms but this is not analogous to civil conflict.

    Many of those caught up in the moment are living with the consequences this weekend as they find out just how effective the US intelligence services can be. They’ll going through the security footage for weeks. There will be many arrests to come.

    As mentioned by others, there’s going to be a very long investigation into this event.

  191. Ken P.: This may be true, but in the USA we have the First Amendment that prohibits the government from limiting free speech. Personally, I feel much better to err of the side of free speech as opposed to censorship.

    Given that corporations have many of the rights of natural persons, given the present state of our laws, it’s hard (for me, anyway) to see how the government could force private corporations to refrain from the kinds of restraints that we have seen imposed by the big tech monopolies in recent days. Why should a private corporation be forced to provide access to individuals who, in the corporation’s judgement, violate the “terms of service” contract they agreed to when they contracted to use the service?

    It has been said that ‘if your business model depends on a platform that is controlled by someone else, you aren’t in control of your business.’

    I’m in favor of breaking up the “FANG” tech monopolies on public interest grounds (and I think that present law provides regulators with sufficient authority to do that). Arguably, some of these entities are so powerful that they ought to be regulated as if they were public utilities, or perhaps even converted into public utilities. That thought probably spooks many; the idea of public utilities for many smacks of socialism — hard to believe that we lived with many such utilities within living memory.

  192. Samuel Conner: That thought probably spooks many; the idea of public utilities for many smacks of socialism

    The mere mention of the big-bad-bogeyman “Socialism” is enough for many villagers to take up rakes, pitchforks, torches, and storm Frankenstein’s castle so to speak.

  193. Jack: Was the rally planned – yes, I believe likeminded groups coordinated their efforts to attend via social but I don’t think it was a “conspiracy” with any one mastermind coordinating the effort.

    Agreed, and this allows people to evade responsibility. “All I did was rent a bus for 50,” “All I did was sponsor a robo call,” “All I did was ask for votes to be counted a fourth time because people have doubts.”

    And meanwhile they pay scant attention to the fact that extremist groups online were in a frenzy and coaching one another on how to carry Loud Contraband into DC. If these groups were showing up in my town, I would not be going along to say prayers. That adds to the crowd count and therefore to the credibility of the worst elements. I can pray at home.

  194. Ken P.: This may be true, but…

    I think it’s more accurate to say: This IS true, AND. I too would rather err on the side of free speech than censorship, but recognise that the word “err” is well-chosen here. There are dangerous extremes in more than one direction, and I don’t think there’s a metaphorical map in which here is the dangerous quicksand of censorship, and everywhere else is the sunlit uplands of freedom. It’s not that simple.

    As Wild Honey pointed out, whilst the First Amendment prevents Congress from making any law that impinges on several matters of freedom, Twitter is not Congress. I’m not sure it qualifies as part of the press in the strictest sense (though I know there’s been a lot of legal fighting over that in recent years). But if it did, it would still be free to publish or not publish whatever output it chose. By the same token, anyone could set up a rival press organisation, and it could report exclusively on stories favourable to the incumbent president, editing and cherry-picking data as it did so. News services like this have existed in the past. One of the important things about press freedom, though, is that the press must be free to hold government to account and push back on those in power.

    So, freedom of speech and of the press is important to prevent a government from becoming over-powerful and thence repressive; but there’s at least one other challenge to civil liberty which is that government is not the only potential bad-faith actor. Big Pharma, Big Tech, Big Whatever Else, and the Marxist Fake News Media came about precisely because they were free to do so, whether one likes or dislikes anyone in that list.

    Every meaningfully democratic country has legislation protecting press freedom, for instance, but inevitably it sometimes happens that a free press intrudes on the freedom of one or more private individuals and public anger results. In the UK, The News Of The World [long story short here] closed down after being engulfed in the scandal resulting from its hacking into the personal phone messages of a recently-murdered schoolgirl. But even in that case, the government was fundamentally reluctant to introduce legal oversight of the press because of the potential implications for civil liberties.

    I agree that freedom of speech and expression is humanly essential, and the question is not whether we preserve it, but how best to preserve it. Certainly freedom of speech is not there to protect a president, but private citizens. I think we’re going to have to grapple with how we do this, in an age where social media algorithms, and echo-chamber conspiracy theories, have more power than Samual Rowbotham and his flat-earthers ever did in the 19th century.

  195. Jack: Many of the participants got caught up in the moment – I don’t this was a coup. As others have mentioned, yes we need to be vigilant about our freedoms but this is not analogous to civil conflict.

    No segment of the U.S. population has a civil right to be uncivil and desecrate the nation’s Capitol.

  196. Max: No segment of the U.S. population has a civil right to be uncivil and desecrate the nation’s Capitol.

    As Abraham Lincoln said regarding slavery rights: “You do not have the right to do wrong.”

  197. elastigirl: (in an effort to provide life partner with news he could count on as unlikely to be fake news)

    Your partner may not like The Hill. He might se it as left of center. I would suggest Real Clear Politics. It has reports from various sources a little more across the political spectrum.

  198. Max: No segment of the U.S. population has a civil right to be uncivil and desecrate the nation’s Capitol.

    You’re right, and I used the term civil unrest incorrectly. What I meant to say is this is not comparable to the civil war. It’s more comparable to what happened in sixties. The anti war protests and other acts of public unrest. The US did get through that and will get through this as well.

    Those that breached the capital will be held to account and those that enabled will have a hard time convincing anyone the movement has any peaceful component.

    Canada is looking at putting the Proud Boys on the official list of terrorist organizations

  199. elastigirl,

    I would suggest trying to read widely in order to be aware of a range of possible interpretations of stories that are being portrayed in inflammatory ways. Inflammatory portrayals happen on both sides of the media spectrum; I think that the dynamic of “angering viewers promotes ad revenue” works across the board.

    In noting “both sides”; I’m not trying to “sin level”, just recognizing that the motive to shade/select in the service of preferred narratives is not unique to one persuasion.

    An old memory is still vivid: a long-time friend was really angry about the betrayal of the national interest that was evident in news he was hearing about a treaty with Russia that was about to be ratified. The treaty adjusted the border between US and Russia and ceded some small islands to Russia. There happened to be some oil resources in the seabed around these islands, and my friend was furious with the then President (the 2008-16 one) for this betrayal of the national interest. He learned about the betrayal on one of the major TV news outlets.

    I knew nothing about this and was not able to offer a counter interpretation (but I also knew from prior interactions that the person’s mind was pretty resistant to alternatives, regardless of underlying realities). After the rant, I went digging on the internet.

    It turned out that the treaty in question had been negotiated by the foreign policy team of the 1988-1992 president, but had never been ratified by the Senate. It finally was ratified by the Senate during the 2008-2016 presidency. It wasn’t treason at all; at least not by the then president. It was a very old border dispute that took decades to sort out.

    But none of this background was noticed in the TV reporting by the network hostile to the then president.

    —-

    I think one should basically always wonder: “what important details may be being left out?” and refrain from forming strong opinions until one has time to attempt to answer that question.

    You might have to model that posture; it sounds like your partner does not currently think that way.

  200. Samuel Conner: I’m in favor of breaking up the “FANG” tech monopolies on public interest grounds (and I think that present law provides regulators with sufficient authority to do that). Arguably, some of these entities are so powerful that they ought to be regulated as if they were public utilities, or perhaps even converted into public utilities. That thought probably spooks many; the idea of public utilities for many smacks of socialism — hard to believe that we lived with many such utilities within living memory.

    This is why I value the BBC – both the Corporation itself, and the principle of a BBC – so highly. Two things:
    1) It’s taxpayer-funded. This means it doesn’t have to make money, and thus doesn’t have to appeal to a base. Its charter obliges it to serve the entire population.
    2) It’s publicly owned but independent of government. To my mind, its independence is strongly confirmed by the fact that supporters of successive governments have consistently accused it of bias against their Team.

    Like democracy, the Beeb isn’t Jesus. But also like democracy, it’s better than many of the alternatives.

  201. elastigirl,

    The Hill has a limited mission and a generally good reputation for moderate, non-partisan reporting. It’s free online, and I check it almost daily. My impression is that The Hill takes fewer risks in breaking stories and quoting without attribution, but their writers might disagree about the nature and extent of risk.

    For coverage of the military, you might check out military dot com and also the websites for Army Times, Air Force Times, Navy Times, Marine Corps Times, and Stars and Stripes. All give an insider’s view. They have various owners.

  202. Ken P.,

    I did. Nick’s comment referred to censorship on social media, in response to Ken F’s comment about social media. Your comment brought in the First Amendment and government censorship, without citing a specific instance of government-sponsored censorship. Which is why I said “IF” you’re talking about Twitter…

    But thank you for the clarification, for anyone confused.

  203. Ken F (aka Tweed): That said, I think it was foolish to participate in the rally, but not illegal, seditious, or treasonous.

    They ransacked and trashed Pelosi’s office.
    One cretin even posed for a lounging pic with his feet up on her desk.
    There is evidence to suggest that it was an inside job; the ‘protesters’ got in too easily.

    Make no mistake, these people, no matter how far up the totem pole it goes, have one ultimate goal in mind: The violent overthrow of our present form of Government.

  204. Muff Potter: They ransacked and trashed Pelosi’s office.

    I think I have done a terrible job in expressing my conviction that there is a big difference between 1) the vast majority of people who attended the rally peacefully (if not stupidly) and 2) the several hundred (at most) who purposefully and illegally broke into the Capitol to cause harm. My comment above that you quoted was about the people who attended the rally who did not participate in the break in. Of the few hundred who broke in, I am pretty convinced (as is Max) that some stupidly got caught up in the moment and that the real number of instigators is smaller. Too many people are broadly painting everyone at the rally with the same brush, with is not only misleading but also dangerous. I don’t think we want to live in a country which outlaws political rallies by those with whom we disagree. But we all of us should want violent activity outlawed and prosecuted. I was sickened by what I saw happening in the capitol that day, and if anyone here thinks otherwise they have badly misjudged me.

    As for those who believe Antifa was behind this, it does not fit their m.o. Antifa would have hidden behind masks, destroyed artwork, painted grafitti, and torn down statues. Other than tear gas residue on artwork and one statue getting splashed with red paint, the artwork and artifacts came out of this in remarkably good shape. Whoever was behind it, they were intent on sowing division and chaos more than they were on destroying historical art and artifacts. Mission accomplished.

    I remain hopeful that the criminals will be identified and prosecuted. Likewise, I hope that all the politicians and celebrities who praised all the spring and summer riots will repent of their foolishness. When you tell one side that violent protest is an appropriate way to get attention, it shoukd not be surprising when the other side gets the message. It was not just one political party who got us where we are today.

  205. Samuel Conner: Arguably, some of these entities are so powerful that they ought to be regulated as if they were public utilities, or perhaps even converted into public utilities.

    Until recently, I would have said we are technically a constitutional republic (not a democracy), but in practice we are an oligarchy run by the rich and powerful with not much practical difference between the two political parties. But after recent events, I’m thinking we might actually be a technocracy, where big tech runs calls all the shots. I am not on parler and have no intention to get on parler, but the fact that big tech was able to shut it down so quickly and also to shut down pretty much all of the President’s social media is making me think they are in charge rather than the government. Even the ACLU is sounding alarms.

  206. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    There is ample infrastructure for any president of the US to communicate instantly with the world. Taxpayers pay handsomely for that. The ACLU was expressing concern about the banning of one account hinting at the power to silence marginalized people.

    I have repeatedly read that world leaders’ Twitter accounts are left open specifically to let people see what they are saying, good or bad. If they scrub only the bad, people might think more highly of leaders than they should.

    Re Parler [spit], it is arguably irresponsible for a company to let people say whatever they want. If I walk into a supermarket and start yelling that all ______s deserve to die, doesn’t the store have a right or even duty to quiet me down? Likewise online, I should not have free rein to threaten people. It is hard to work out where to draw the line, but we do have laws about hate speech, fighting words, and verbal threats.

  207. Ken P.: we have the First Amendment that prohibits the government from limiting free speech

    Sadly, the 21st century is a totally different world than when the First Amendment was penned by Statesmen. (remember when we had wise, skillful, and respected political leaders?)

    John Adams, Second President of the U.S. framed things this way when America was launched:

    “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

    Seems to me that the “any others” are largely in charge with an inadequate government which is spiraling into chaos. Every man is doing what is right in his own eyes … moral and religious people don’t have much input these days. They try to make a difference at a peaceful rally, only to find that the “any others” came with a different mission.

    What a mess.

  208. Friend: There is ample infrastructure for any president of the US to communicate instantly with the world.

    Ok, so give a few examples. Other than being able to send emergency texts to cell phones or send out mass mailers through USPS snail mail, I am not aware of any communications that don’t go through commercial organizations such newspapers, magazines, broadcast media, cable news, internet service providers, or social media. Any of these can block the president at their will. If they all block him, what are the non-commercial means?

    Friend: It is hard to work out where to draw the line, but we do have laws about hate speech, fighting words, and verbal threats.

    It makes sense to make certain types of speech illegal in public places. But does it makes sense to make it illegal for certain types of people to be in public places because of the risk they could say something that is illegal? We appear to have different perspectives on the benevolence and altruism of the technocrats who control our ability to communicate. Time will tell whether they will control it well.

  209. Max: They try to make a difference at a peaceful rally, only to find that the “any others” came with a different mission.

    January 6 was different, though. Warnings came out for weeks, from the bad groups as well as officials. There were some religious folk in town, but I am not convinced that they were peaceful or even sane.

    Why would peaceful Christians show up for an effort designed to stop Congress from ceremonially certifying a presidential election, two months after the election and two weeks before inauguration?

    Now there are threats of several specific days of violence in the near future, not only in DC but in state capitals and probably some other cities. I don’t want to post specifics.

    I’m going with Matthew 6:6 and praying in my closet. God has better coverage than T-Mobile.

  210. Friend: Somehow every president managed to be heard before Twitter.

    By what non-commercial entities? Is it illegal for MSM to choose not to air his speeches?

  211. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    I’m not assuming that the president is only heard via commercial news entities. The government has its very own ways of issuing statements (VOA, GPO, lots and lots and lots of .gov sites…).

    A lot of news entities are not commercial (anything Chinese or Russian) or not entirely so (BBC). But your fear is simply not credible. What chance is there of a conspiracy to silence or ignore the president of the United States? Who would dare not know what the Americans are up to?

  212. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    I think that this concern is theoretical at the moment.

    MSM broadcast media are not refusing to report the President’s pronouncements — I expect that they would love it if his social media outlets had not been suspended, since that would be more news to report.

    The President appears to be avoiding conventional media exposure on his own. And, given the “embarrassments,” and worse, of the last week, one can understand why.

  213. Muff Potter: There is evidence to suggest that it was an inside job; the ‘protesters’ got in too easily.

    I disagree. This is a case of incompetence at the command level and bias at the command level. If this had been another group then they would have intercepted en route with full riot response.
    Yes I saw the cop posing for a selfie but I also saw he had no PPE and was completely surrounded. I’ll reserve judgement as we also know a policeman was killed. The frontline Cops were left hanging.

    The Proud Boys issued a missive that they were going to terrify the nation. Hopefully that bias will be dispelled.

    I suspect security is going to be very tight for the inauguration.

  214. Ken F (aka Tweed): ACLU is weighing in:
    https://www.newsweek.com/aclu-counsel-warns-unchecked-power-twitter-facebook-after-trump-suspension-1560248

    People are rightly worried about the US becoming a dictatorship. In a dictatorship, is the dictator the one gets silenced, or the one who does the silencing?

    I grew up in a pretty conservative family that was/is always on the alert for warning signs of dictatorship from the left. Then as an adult I started reading more from the left and realized they’re just as concerned about warning signs of dictatorship from the right. Is it paranoid to admit I think it could come from extremists on either side?

    I have such mixed thoughts about the Twitter thing (the trouble with being a centrist, I guess). While I tend to lean toward the free speech argument, there needs to be a balance of people actually being held responsible for speech that does actual harm (the proverbial crying “fire” in a crowded theater,” libel laws, etc). Free speech comes with a responsibility to use it wisely, not to abuse it. If the president had done a better job of censoring his own speech, Twitter wouldn’t have had to do it for him. Does it seem to go a little far in making it “permanent?” Yes… but businesses have been known to change their mind before when faced with strong enough backlash.

    And “marginalized voices” do need to be heard, but those words can mean whatever someone wants them to mean. Is ISIS marginalized? Pro-Trump extremists with pipe bombs? I don’t have an answer, just acknowledging that it’s complicated.

  215. Friend: There were some religious folk in town, but I am not convinced that they were peaceful

    To those who weren’t, Scripture counsels:

    “Don’t pay back a bad turn by a bad turn, to anyone. Don’t say “it doesn’t matter what people think”, but see that your public behavior is above criticism.” (Romans 12:17)

    Seventy million Americans feel that they were dealt a “bad turn” on election day … millions of those would consider themselves Christian. They don’t need to be in the business of doling out bad turns themselves! I was young and now am old; I’ve never seen the church so off track. Must we be reminded that the weapons of our warfare are not physical weapons of flesh and blood?!

    “For I am afraid otherwise that I shall have to do some plain speaking to those of you who will persist in reckoning that our activities are on the purely human level. The truth is that, although of course we lead normal human lives, the battle we are fighting is on the spiritual level. The very weapons we use are not those of human warfare but powerful in God’s warfare for the destruction of the enemy’s strongholds.” (2 Corinthians 10:4 Phillips)

    The church would be better to engage battle in the right way, than flailing in the flesh. “IF MY PEOPLE, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; THEN WILL I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” (2 Chronicles 7:14)

    We would all agree that we need a healing in the land. We need to activate the “Then Will I” of God! IMO, there is no shortcut (no law, no politician) to get us to where we need to be as a nation. But will we – God’s people – heed the wisdom in the above passage?

  216. Max: will we – God’s people – heed the wisdom in the above passage?

    Let us hope so, Max. I appreciate your powerful words.

  217. Max: moral and religious people don’t have much input these days.

    As far as I’m concerned, not many religious people are moral these days. I don’t want them running anything.

  218. Samuel Conner: MSM broadcast media are not refusing to report the President’s pronouncements

    I don’t disagree. Normally the MSM has no incentive to shut down the president, but the next nine days could be interesting because these are unprecedented times. My bigger concern is for all of us peons. If the ruling technocrats can block the president from social media so quickly and if they can shut down competing social media so easily, they can do it to any of us even more quickly and easily. I hope my concerns are completely unfounded. Time will tell.

  219. Friend: There is ample infrastructure for any president of the US to communicate instantly with the world.

    Absolutely. Trump can walk into the presidential press room anytime he wants and communicate. He has chosen not to do that through most of his presidency.

  220. Friend: The government has its very own ways of issuing statements (VOA, GPO, lots and lots and lots of .gov sites…).

    VOA can be blocked, but most don’t know how to tune into VOA even if they knew about it. And our ISPs can block whatever sites they want. Are you aware af any .gov sites set up for the President for him to blog or live stream? And if he could, how would people find the site if the technocrats mask it from searches? I think you are reaching for straws. Whether or not it’s likely that they could shut him down, it’s very clear that they can whenever they want to. The fact that they successfully conspired to shut down a competing platform after blocking him from their own platforms is not the way a free society is supposed to work. You sound like you are perfectly ok with that. To each his own.

  221. Wild Honey: My sympathies.

    Thanks. Marrying into a family that had to live under that oppression and was then under the Soviet threat for so many years certainly impacts my interpretation of current events. Freedom is so easily lost.

  222. Ken F (aka Tweed): My bigger concern is for all of us peons.

    It’s already routinely happening. My sympathies are left-of-center (that probably shows in the sites I occasionally reference favorably) and commentators of that persuasion (a recent example is Caitlin Johnstone; other examples could be multiplied. An international example is Craig Murray, who IIRC reported some time ago that traffic to his site seemed to be being throttled by the big tech monopolies; Google search algorithm tweaking could be quite powerful) have been reporting closure of social media accounts for unspecified violations of policies.

    I suspect that we may need an alterative or alternatives to the tech platforms. I wonder if email could function the way paper samizdat used to.

  223. Ken F (aka Tweed): Thanks. Marrying into a family that had to live under that oppression and was then under the Soviet threat for so many years certainly impacts my interpretation of current events. Freedom is so easily lost.

    I can imagine. I’m two generations removed from the trauma, but still have a half-formed plan for a priest hole (for lack of a better word) in our house should the need arise.

    (I think a reply to your other comment is in customs.)

  224. Bridget,

    “As far as I’m concerned, not many religious people are moral these days. I don’t want them running anything.”
    ++++++++++++++

    i’ll take my agnostic cousin who refuses to lie because, in his own words, “that would be wrong”, and my kind muslim friends who insist on the highest integrity standards, at their own personal cost when necessary.

    (which is no reflection on God / Jesus / Holy Spirit, nor my belief in ‘them’)

  225. Ken F (aka Tweed): And our ISPs can block whatever sites they want. Are you aware af any .gov sites set up for the President for him to blog or live stream? And if he could, how would people find the site if the technocrats mask it from searches? I think you are reaching for straws.

    What do you think happens when any president walks into the White House Briefing Room, drives past a crowd, works a rope line, meets with a dignitary, goes for a trip, plays a sport, gives a speech, hands out medals…?

    Can you name anyone on planet Earth who gets more news coverage than our current president or his several predecessors?

  226. elastigirl,

    “(which is no reflection on God / Jesus / Holy Spirit, nor my belief in ‘them’)”
    +++++++++++++

    no, on second thought, it is a reflection on God — their propensity towards what is good, right and true is the deposit of God their creator.

    i mean where else it coming from? aliens?

  227. Wild Honey: My German great-grandparents literally gave one of their children up for adoption in the 1930s because they couldn’t afford to feed all of them (grandpa had lost his job for refusing to join the Party). Instantly regretted it. So he joined the Party, found work, and claimed their child back.

    Ken F (aka Tweed): This hits close to home. One of my wife’s grandfathers was disappeared by the party for the same reason.

    This vid is for all of us.
    It’s powerful, and speaks the truth to power…
    https://news.yahoo.com/arnold-schwarzenegger-capitol-hill-riot-kristallnacht-155259895.html

  228. Samuel Conner: I wonder if email could function the way paper samizdat used to.

    Is there a way to have an email account without going through an ISP or a cell phone provider?

  229. Friend: Can you name anyone on planet Earth who gets more news coverage than our current president or his several predecessors?

    How much news coverage has he had over the last few daysm? My point is the ruling technocrats just proved to us this week that they have the power to shut down anyone, even the president, whenever they want to. From a communications perspective, we are serfs. I suppose it’s been like this for a long time now.

  230. Ken F (aka Tweed): How much news coverage has he had over the last few daysm?

    An infinite amount.

    It’s not unfiltered, if that’s what you are referring to.

    But it never was.

    Famous people’s books are usually ghost written. Politicians have speech writers. Presidents have aides and advisors. People on Twitter often correct and delete their own tweets. Cameras often have human operators. Public figures dye their hair, put on makeup, get their teeth fixed and whitened, and fuss about the best lighting. They wear custom-made clothing. We don’t often see the natural authentic person.

    Ronald Reagan used to drink a glass of warm water before speaking to the public. He liked the way it altered his voice.

  231. Max: Sadly, the 21st century is a totally different world than when the First Amendment was penned by Statesmen. (remember when we had wise, skillful, and respected political leaders?)

    John Adams, Second President of the U.S.

    You do know that to his eternal shame, his way of dealing with the “freedom of the press” was to toss the folks who wrote against him into jail.

  232. Bridget: not many religious people are moral these days. I don’t want them running anything

    A greater truth was never spoken. The religious, but morally and spiritually destitute, fill American churches each Sunday – in both pulpit and pew. We deal daily with this dilemma on TWW. Raising a national son (or daughter) to the highest offices in this land – without some shame in their background – is like looking for the proverbial needle in the haystack.

  233. Ken F (aka Tweed): Is there a way to have an email account without going through an ISP or a cell phone provider?

    Email (as you’re thinking of it) rides on top of the internet.
    ISP means Internet Service Provider
    Cell phones (smart label here) give you an internet connection via themselves being an ISP or via some other ISP.

    So no, you can’t really have what you think of as email without an ISP being there. IBM PROFS and competitors are no more.

    But it’s bigger than that. Most all (99.99999%) of phone calls that leave your neighborhood (and even those) travel across the same Internet as your eBay shopping and emails. They are just using segregated traffic channels. Some 3 letter agencies use separate wires but that is hideously expensive. (Segway now into a very arcane but required debate on net neutrality.)

    Anyway, like it or not, the internet carries most of our information these days.

    And to take it into almost absurd territory, get into a discussion with someone who knows what is going on at the low technical levels about medical HIPPA rules and “faxes are secure and email isn’t”.

  234. Wild Honey: Is it paranoid to admit I think it could come from extremists on either side?

    I think it is very reasonable to think it could come from either side. The way it could happen would likely be different, but the results could look the same. We are not there yet, but the recent activities by the sovereign technocrats should cause everyone to be alarmed. We all apparently serve at their pleasure. As long as we all stay in line there is nothing to fear. It’s for our safety.

  235. Friend: Famous people’s books are usually ghost written. Politicians have speech writers. Presidents have aides and advisors. People on Twitter often correct and delete their own tweets. Cameras often have human operators. Public figures dye their hair, put on makeup, get their teeth fixed and whitened, and fuss about the best lighting. They wear custom-made clothing. We don’t often see the natural authentic person.

    I don’t understand how this addresses my concern that big tech has become too powerful. A large and very popular company was just sent to the virtual ovens. To me that was shocking, but you seem to have no concerns about it. It’s true that the technocracy has not yet fully fired up the virtual ovens, but they could at any time, and yesterday they showed their willingness to do it. It was a warning, at best. Many on the left are celabrating, not realizing they could be on the schedule at some point. TWW appears safe for now…

    See this article for more detail:
    https://deadline.com/2021/01/parler-ceo-says-service-dropped-by-every-vendor-and-could-end-the-company-1234670607/

  236. NC Now,

    Your feedback is consistent with what I understood. I was wondering if there is anything else out there for communication that does no go through big tech.

  237. Ken F (aka Tweed): A large and very popular company was just sent to the virtual ovens.

    Pardon me. Are you comparing a website to six million human beings?

    You are way over the line, especially given that website’s role in last week’s riot. That’s an extremist gathering place for people who would happily add to the six million.

    There are choices beyond the Third Reich and Stalinism. One of them was the American choice to prevail in both World War II and the Cold War. We did that without extremism.

  238. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    You’re asking for a safe practical car that isn’t made by a major auto company. While you can make something that lets you move around, making something that is safe at speed, complies with emissions standards, carries people in comfort, etc… all by your lonesome is a tall order.

    But this thing about big tech is somewhat misplaced. Anyone here know about Level3? Or how things route around the world through various government and private networks? It’s not simple like “Apple will not let out app on their store.” It is things like country xyz has rules for ANY app sold/used in their country (define “in” please). Or for content that travels into, out of, or through their country. Or is controlled in some what by a company that is involved in such software or information transfer. Now interpret those rules written in a language without roots in Europe and apply them to your app store which may serve up purchased software that sits in a 3rd country and payments from a bank in a 4th on a credit system located in a 5th. And such traffic being routed through multiple other countries due to the node concentration points around the world.

    See this map for an indication of how the world connects.
    https://www.infrapedia.com/app

    The real problem is people (of all stripes) want THEIR values and rules applied to everyone else.

  239. Wild Honey: While I tend to lean toward the free speech argument, there needs to be a balance of people actually being held responsible for speech that does actual harm … Free speech comes with a responsibility to use it wisely, not to abuse it.

    “Do not let unwholesome words ever come out of your mouth, but only such speech as is good for building up others, according to the need and the occasion, so that it will be a blessing to those who hear you speak.” (Ephesians 4:29)

    It’s clear that “unwholesome words” at the rally last week added fuel to the fire in that crowd. They were words which caused others to commit crimes against our country … they were not appropriate for the occasion … they did not bless, but cursed those who acted on them. They were words which have been building on both the left and right for four years … leaders in both parties share responsibility for fueling the fire, albeit those who spoke at the rally carry the blame and shame for last Wednesday.

    I wish the rally organizer(s) would have uttered these words before the speakers took stage: “Watch your words and hold your tongue; you’ll save yourself a lot of grief” (Proverbs 21:23). They didn’t and we are now faced with a national agony being witnessed around the world.

  240. Friend: I want to be very clear. Your language, your words, your analogy, are shocking in the extreme.

    You are right. I will climb back in my hole and disengage.

  241. elastigirl: would this be a good time to ask if there have been any recent sasquatch sightings?

    Nope, but I heard there will be camera crews going to Devil’s Tower (Wyoming) to capture the first ever vids of extra-terrestrial spacecraft cavorting above the place.

  242. Re: living with (or contact with) others who are into conspiracy theories and what we consider false reality, etc., there have been some recent articles trying to give people advice.
    One that I thought made the most sense an interview with a professor (forgot the field now) who says that trying to show and argue facts with people will NOT work. They are emotionally invested and feel belonging in their chosen “group” and gain positive feedback from that.
    She suggested staying emotionally connected to the person in other positive ways, finding what common ground you can, not cutting off contact if possible to leave a lifeline open. Wish I could express it better, but hope that makes a little bit of sense.

  243. readingalong: staying emotionally connected to the person in other positive ways, finding what common ground you can, not cutting off contact if possible to leave a lifeline open

    This can work well, unless it exhausts (general) you. It also does not work if the other person is abusive.

    The issue raised here is dealing with the people closest to us, but there can also be divisions between people who don’t see each other regularly. We send cards and have phone conversations, and always have neutral questions at the ready for changing the subject.

  244. readingalong,

    “…staying emotionally connected to the person in other positive ways, finding what common ground you can, not cutting off contact if possible to leave a lifeline open.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    common ground…i mentioned these exact words to lifepartner yesterday. suggested we pray every morning for our respective goals, projects, ambitions, simply out of an interest in practicality.

    (God is practical, as it turns out)

    i also suggested that our prayers include ‘find more common ground’.

    …although morning’s gone now, and it didn’t happen. we’ll try tomorrow.

  245. Also, are any other Wartburgers having caching bother with Node http-server? I’m losing the will to live here.

    And is live-server any better? I don’t want to install another poo-show. Apart from that, I’m really liking React!

    On a related note, I switched over from Sublime Text to VS Code a few weeks ago. As in, Micros**t VS Code. And you know what? It’s REALLY good! Didnae see THAT yin coming.

    I hope this is helpful.

  246. Max,

    On the basis of a long-standing (if online) friendship, Max, I’ll overlook this attack on the second-cutest animal on earth.

    😉

  247. Nick Bulbeck: the second-cutest animal on earth

    You’re somewhere in the top ten. I hope your various avatars are not claiming individual spots, though, as that would be unethical.

  248. Nick Bulbeck: I’ll overlook this attack on the second-cutest animal on earth

    I suppose the first-cutest animal in your part of the world is the Loch Ness Monster?

    (Thanks for diverting the blog thread from the insurrection in our nation’s capitol … I can’t believe I just said that – the U.S. Capitol was desecrated last week! … what’s the world coming to?!! We may all be eating haggis burgers before this is over)

  249. Nick Bulbeck,

    “We don’t really get sasquatches in Scotland, but the haggis-hunting season is in full swing.”
    ++++++++++++++

    i think we should be talking about nessie at this point.

  250. Max: Thanks for diverting the blog thread from the insurrection in our nation’s capitol

    Also I think you’ll find it was elastigirl!

  251. Wartburgers who are researching the global effects of social media may be interested in the following snippet from Mark Zuckerberg in a Senate hearing, dubbed into Glasgwegian by comedian Janey Godley:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVo3SSwQuBs

    (I should probably warn any righteous Wartburgers out there that some of the language is a bit Glasgow.)

  252. elastigirl:
    would this be a good time to ask if there have been any recent sasquatch sightings?

    February of last year (wow, that was only a year ago), we were on a family trip in Sasquatch country. Totally thought of you.

  253. Labrador123: Who are you to decide what has a place in the Kingdom of God?

    Who am I? Just a speck in the universe whose heart is broken over the condition of America and the church within it.

    What part of last Wednesday’s insurrection do you think belongs in the Kingdom of God? Jesus told Peter to put down his sword the night He was arrested – He didn’t want His Kingdom forced on anyone.

    What has a place in the Kingdom of God? Scripture says these things belong in the Kingdom: righteousness, peace, joy, prayer, repentance, the fruit of the Spirit, seeking God first, living out and sharing the Good News.

    “My Kingdom is not of this world, nor does it have its origin in this world. If My Kingdom were of this world, My servants would be fighting hard to keep Me from being handed over; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this world.” (Jesus)

  254. Muff Potter: Nope, but I heard there will be camera crews going to Devil’s Tower (Wyoming) to capture the first ever vids of extra-terrestrial spacecraft cavorting above the place.

    Sasquatch, the Mothman & Nessie caught in a Bermuda love triangle! Film at 11!

  255. Samuel Conner,

    thank you, samuel, for your responses and all your good will. i’m mulling it all over.

    ‘epistemic’…. i remember in my general ed philosophy course hearing the prof say “epistemology… the theory of knowledge” and how her voice rose on the first syllable of ‘knowledge’.

    turning it into an adjective… well, that’s just kicking it up an abstract notch! i’ll have to look it up.

    i’ve seen it thrown around a lot lately. i suspect you’re one of the few for whom it’s casual banter, and everyone else is copying you.

    i think things are working out with lifetime partner.

    i challenged him on a few things tonight. he seemed to hear me. seemed kind of resigned, spent, burned out.

    then he said he was going to get some ice cream…. some “conspiracy theory ice cream”.

    “make that, ‘critical thinking ice cream-‘”.

    “fraudulent election fudge!”

    “-with intelligent chips and strong character swirl”

    and we both laughed. i think it’s working out.

  256. elastigirl: and we both laughed. i think it’s working out.

    thanks be to God.

    “kindness” and “patience” can be very powerful, especially when there is fundamentally a good will in the other.

    And good food, shared in good will, can cover a multitude of transgressions. There was a lot of “table ministry” in Jesus’ interpersonal ministry method.

    —-

    re: “epistemic humility”, this has become something of a “big deal” for me personally in terms of my “relationship to external reality”. A number of significant blunders decades ago incentivized a more cautious approach to my interpretation of the meaning of evidence. Eventually that posture of caution even reached my approach to theology.

    In recent years, as I have grown to especially prize things that I am highly confident are true, my theology has become “conditional.” I’m not as confident as I used to be about what one should understand the underlying source material (the texts of the Bible) to mean, but one can be more confident that “if X is true, then Y follows” (leaving aside the question of whether X is actually true; the structure of logic is not impaired, though of course there is value in remaining curious about the quality of one’s own internal cognitive processes). On that basis, one can, for example, respect Reformed systematic theology for its attempt at internal logical rigour while questioning whether it has accurately grounded itself in the meaning of the biblical texts (if, for example, one finds reason to question “infernalism,” that has pretty significant consequences, in an “if … , then …” sense, for Reformed system.)

    If one is going to hold “interpretive systems” with a lighter grip, that might lead one to a sense of disorientation, since our interpretive systems so strongly shape our understanding of the world (think of how disorienting it would be for a QAnon “true believer” if the President were to publicly cast scorn on the theory). For me, this has led to a great concern for “accurate description” in the now smaller subset of interpretive frameworks that I am still willing to grant some space in my internal model of the world.

    One example of such an interpretive framework (ie, one that starts with a priority concern for “accurate description”) is the “history first, theology second” approach to the Scriptures that is advocated by scholars such as N T Wright. Another, in a completely different field, is the “Modern Monetary Theory” framework for understanding of how government finances work in US and other monetary sovereign nations.

    I find it encouraging that both approaches seem to be gaining influence.

  257. Maybe Trump has more support among the police than I realized; enough support to join him in a coup attempt perhaps?

    I’m guessing it would be almost impossible for the police or military to organize support for Trump without that support being reported, but reports from the Capitol of an officer wearing a MAGA hat, another officer letting protestors into the Capitol, and still another taking a selfie with one of the protestors is unsettling.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/2-capitol-police-officers-suspended-one-possibly-arrested-over-pro-n1253822

    https://news.yahoo.com/among-americas-military-allies-believe-135838118.html?ICID=ref_fark

  258. Samuel Conner,

    blimey

    so, when you say “In recent years, as I have grown to especially prize things that I am highly confident are true, my theology has become “conditional.””,

    does that mean your convictions of what are true are your starting point, your grid, and then you strain theology through that grid?

    (instead of the reverse)

  259. elastigirl,

    my point is that since

    a) christian theology is radically dependent on the meaning of the biblical texts

    and

    b) I am not confident that I understand the meaning of the biblical texts (and the diversity of views that claim for themselves dogmatic authority does not inspire confidence that others understand them, either)

    c) it is really hard for me to evaluate the truth status of theological systems — the degree to which they correspond to external reality (that reality being the meaning of the source texts)

    However, one can still evaluate the internal consistency and coherence of systems

    And one can form conditional “if/then” assessments.

    —-

    Imagine a “phylogenetic tree” of christian theologies, with the root of the tree being the Bible.

    The branches of this true occur at places where divergent interpretations of the meaning of the text are possible.

    The distal twigs are the resulting theological systems that are possible, dependent on the decisions one makes about which branches to prefer closer to the roots.

    I don’t know which of these possible theologies is the right one. But I can see how “if one makes this interpretive judgment at this point, then that narrows one’s range of possible systems in the following ways …”.

    i.e. “conditional theology”

    Is it possible to approach a sense of confidence that some kinds of theological system are more likely to be true than others? I think it is, but such judgments are subjective.

    I like N T Wright’s proposed method — reading the Scriptures as an historian would before one tries to read them as a theologian — as a process for deciding which “twigs” are more likely to be valid than others.

    (So, for example, I have come to doubt that “infernalism” is a valid reading of the texts, and that deprecates many branches and twigs within the above notional tree)

    This is not a posture that I would recommend if “certainty” is highly valued. But “certainty” is IMO dangerous if one finds oneself in the place that the thing one is certain about is not true (and as this is a common human experience; humility and wisdom advise me to admit the possibility with respect to myself), and so I think that this is a prudent posture.

    Obviously, one cannot function if one is radically skeptical of everything, including one’s own sensory perceptions. I have a working model of the world that allows me to function. In areas that are highly controverted (political economy and theology are two that immediately come to mind), I am especially conscious of the limits of my understanding and am most keenly interested in trying to discern “what is actually true.”

  260. elastigirl,

    One Anglican principle is “Scripture, tradition, and reason.” I take that to mean that I can love my neighbor and omit the dance of the seven veils.

  261. AHHA,

    it would be a mistake for evangelicals to bottle this moment in time up and the culture’s part in what led to it. candid discussion needs to happen. with intermissions. there’s no way it can be candy-coated and not messy.

  262. I fear for my country.
    The Huns and the Visigoths (to use a metaphor) are at her gates even now.

  263. Muff Potter,

    i hope these recent climactic events, and what appears to be an ultra-thorough investigation, have a sobering effect that spreads towards critical mass.

    i think it’s already starting. at least in my household. and i observe it elsewhere, too.

    arnold schwarzenegger’s ‘speech’ was really inspiring.

    i bet ken burns is already planning the documentary. looking for the angle of the story he will tell as things unfold. it will be powerful. what an awesome person he is.

  264. elastigirl: i hope these recent climactic events, and what appears to be an ultra-thorough investigation, have a sobering effect that spreads towards critical mass.

    i think it’s already starting. at least in my household. and i observe it elsewhere, too.

    Wenatchee-the-hatchet has a recent post that points toward a phenomenon that I have been only dimly aware of

    https://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2021/01/at-get-religion-julia-duin-has-piece-on.html

    Per the embedded linked items, it appears that among the most determined believers in the “stop the steal” narrative are people who are taking their lead from modern-day self-described “prophets”. (Paula White is a well-known example closely affiliated with the President; there are many other lesser well known)

    It is claimed that this movement within broader evangelicalism is large and rapidly growing. I don’t believe the absolute numbers asserted in the linked items in WtH’s piece, but I do find it credible that NAR-type thinking is growing faster than more sedate forms of evangelicalism.

    It may be that the lowering of the political temperature will depend in part on these ‘prophets’ being willing to climb down from their prior assertions of divine revelation. The alternative is disheartening to contemplate — that millions of “charismatic/pentecostal evangelicals” remain convinced that the out-going President is in fact God’s choice for the nation and that the incoming President-elect is the choice of the supernatural enemy — that the actual outcome is the frustration of the Divine purposes for the nation.

    Thankfully Pat Robertson has climbed down; perhaps others will follow.

  265. Muff Potter: I fear for my country.
    The Huns and the Visigoths (to use a metaphor) are at her gates even now.

    America will get through this. I’m not saying there is no danger – I think a high risk of domestic terrorism will be an on going concern well into the next administration, but America has a very stable bureaucratic infrastructure that mostly adheres to the constitution. The military also has a very disciplined command structure loyal to the principles of the constitution. I liken this to the unrest of the late sixties. There was proliferation of domestic “terror” groups then too.

    I stand by my assertion that the American demographic has fundamentally changed. What we’re seeing is resistance to those changes. A frustrated demographic that feels threatened combined with the sudden upheaval of the pandemic. The pandemic just added fuel to what was already smoldering.

    It will work it’s way through.

    My wife got vaccinated this week. All’s good.

    I’m heading off line for a while. Don’t know if I’ll be back this way again so wish you all a great new year! Stay safe!

  266. elastigirl: i bet ken burns is already planning the documentary. looking for the angle of the story he will tell as things unfold. it will be powerful. what an awesome person he is.

    Yes, Burns is a prodigious talent.