“Nothing is as important as the truth.”
Ravi Zacharias
(The Real Face of Atheism, page 105)
In an article published by Julie Roys on December 23, titled “Interim Report Finds Ravi Zacharias “Engaged in Sexual Misconduct Over Many Years,” Roys included an interim report by Miller & Martin, PLLC which was published on December 22, 2020. Miller & Martin is the law firm hired by Ravi Zacharias International Ministries (RZIM) to investigate numerous allegations of sexual misconduct committed by the now-deceased Ravi Zacharias. The interim report states in part:
As to methodology, we contracted with a well-regarded private investigations firm to assist in this matter. Over the past several weeks, our investigation team has interviewed dozens of witnesses (whose identities will remain known only to the Miller & Martin investigation team, as agreed to by the RZIM Board of Directors), including many massage therapists who treated Mr. Zacharias. Some of the therapists with whom we spoke worked at the Touch of Eden and Jivan Wellness spas mentioned in the September 29, 2020 Christianity Today article, and others provided treatments to Mr. Zacharias at different points in time. In addition to witness interviews, we have reviewed numerous documents and electronic devices used by Mr. Zacharias over the years…
While some of the massage therapists we have tried to interview are not willing to share their experiences with us, many have spoken candidly and with great detail. Combining those interviews with our review of documents and electronic data, we have found significant, credible evidence that Mr. Zacharias engaged in sexual misconduct over the course of many years. Some of that misconduct is consistent with and corroborative of that which is reported in the news recently, and some of the conduct we have uncovered is more serious. Our investigation is ongoing, and we continue to pursue leads.
The Wartburg Watch published an article on September 9, 2020, titled Ravi Zacharias – Working the Kinks Out While Earning Extra Cash for Spreading the Gospel!” This article included a video published by “The Friendly Banjo Atheist” on September 8, 2020. The video contained “far and away the most troubling thing about Mr. Zacharias ever to come to light.” Steve Baughman, The Friendly Banjo Atheist, proceeded to inform us that Ravi Zacharias had a side business – he had owned two health spas/massage clinics. One clinic was called “Touch of Eden” and was located in Alpharetta, GA, the home of RZIM, the other, Jivan Wellness, was located in Johns Creek, GA.
Mr. Baughman spoke with Ravi’s partner, Anurag Sharma, and two women who were employees at this clinic and they alleged that Ravi Zacharias was getting more than massages at the clinics. One female employee stated, “I had a close relationship with Ravi. He was a sexual pervert. I know of many women he molested.” Baughman asked Sharma “What was it like to see Ravi preach against sexual immorality while he was being immoral with the therapists?” Sharma responded, “That is probably the reason I killed Jivan.”
I happen to know that Steve Baughman has been the recipient of much abuse from “Christians” for publishing the results of his careful investigations. Check out some of the comments on the video to get a taste of what Baughman has put up with. His work has now been shown to be accurate. In my opinion, there are many “Christians” who owe an apology to Baughman.
I now will highlight an aspect of this scandalous story concerning Ravi Zacharias’ sexual misconduct that has gone largely unnoticed. Specifically, I wish to examine the role played by Johnny Hunt, one of the top luminaries in the echelon of SBC leaders.
Who is Johnny Hunt? This from Wikipedia:
Hunt has held ministry positions at Lavonia Baptist Church, Mooresboro, North Carolina (July 1976–August 1979), Falls Baptist Church in Wake Forest, North Carolina (1979–1980), Longleaf Baptist Church, Wilmington, North Carolina (May 1981–December 1, 1986), and at First Baptist Church in Woodstock, Georgia (1986 to December 2019). First Baptist Woodstock is one of the largest churches in the United States. Under his ministry the church grew from about 1,000 to more than 19,000 members.
In June 1996, Hunt was named the President of SBC Pastor’s Conference. On March 11, 1997, the Johnny Hunt Chair of Biblical Preaching was established at the Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. In June 2008, Hunt succeeded Frank Page as president of the Southern Baptist Convention, and served in that capacity for 2 years. He was succeeded by Bryant Wright.
In November 2016, His church celebrated his 40 years in ministry and serving as senior pastor at First Baptist Woodstock Church for 30 years.
In August 2018, Johnny, alongside his wife Janet, announced to FBC-Woodstock that he would be transitioning out of his full-time pastoral position to fulfill a Senior VP ministry for the North American Mission Board.
Additionally, according to Hunt’s Twitter account, he is now Pastor Emeritus of FBC Woodstock.
One does not rise to the rank of President of the SBC without having many friends in high places within the SBC. Such is the case with Johnny Hunt.
As is so often the case in the SBC, the “Good Ole Boy” network was alive and well in the appointment of Johnny Hunt. NAMB President, Kevin Ezell may have hired Johnny Hunt to what is undoubtedly a financially lucrative job as part of a quid pro quo transaction wherein Hunt gave the Timothy+Barnabas Ministry to NAMB. “Reform NAMB” raised some questions about the whole deal, citing concerns about a reportedly closed-door meeting between NAMB leaders and Johnny Hunt.
Additionally, in what appears to perhaps have been a “package deal,” Jim Law was hired by NAMB as Executive Director of NAMB’s Evangelism and Leadership Group. Law is a long-time friend of Johnny Hunt, having served under Hunt when Hunt was the SBC President in 2008-2009. It would be interesting to know the salaries of Hunt and Law, salaries paid through the generous donations of SBC church members.
Johnny Hunt reportedly was mentored by Paige Patterson while he attended Southeastern Seminary. (Note from editor: it was brought to my attention that the preceding line is incorrect.) As the article below indicates, Hunt clearly identified with the old guard, including Patterson, Pressler, Rogers and Vines.
Here is a Tweet by Hunt supporting Patterson who was under fire for his mishandling of a rape case and general mistreatment of women. The document referred to is no longer on the Southwestern Seminary website, but can be viewed here.
Patterson and former Judge Pressler, a man who, along with Paige Patterson, was renowned for restoring conservatism to the SBC, also frequented the same group of associates as Hunt. Pressler is now infamous for his alleged long-time attraction to young men.
As questionable as the actions of Paige Patterson and Paul Pressler (former SBC leaders) were, I cannot imagine them thinking that speaking at the grand opening of a health spa/massage clinic would ever be a good idea. Yet, Johnny Hunt did exactly that!
Below is a clip from Baughman’s video which exposed the utter corruption of Ravi Zacharias. While recording the video Baughman was interrupted by a phone call from Senior VP for Evangelism and Pastoral Leadership at NAMB and Pastor Emeritus of FBC Woodstock, Johnny Hunt.
Unbelievably, Hunt informs Baughman that Ravi Zacharias “would fly women in from India to do the treatments” for his back pain. (I guess there is not a single competent masseuse to be found in the Atlanta area, or for that matter, anywhere in the United States.) With what we now know, I suggest what Ravi Zacharias was involved in may be classified as sex-trafficking.
But the always verbose Hunt was not finished. He informed Baughman that Ravi Zacharias’ plan was to”make the gospel known through the profits of the company.” Alrighty then, gospelly-centered sex trafficking. Sounds O.K. to me – said nobody ever. ( RZIM “took in $32 million in donations in 2019, according to reports filed with the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability.” Just how much money does an organization need to “make the gospel known?”)
Johnny boy was still not finished. When Baughman asked him about the sex charges Hunt replied he had “absolutely never heard such a charge and I was a regular customer.” Really? Do tell more, Johnny. Why were you frequenting the establishment? And please define “regular.”
I would suggest some SBC officials commission an investigation of their own, post-haste. Maybe they could show Johnny’s picture to some of the women whom Ravi Zacharias pulled a “Jeffrey Epstein” on and see if Johnny received similar, ahem, “treatments.”
I had never heard of Johnny Hunt prior to viewing Steve Baughman’s video. Being a naturally curious guy, I decided to view a few of Johnny Hunt’s sermons I found on-line. I have some clips below.
Ouch! I wonder if Johnny tripped because the log in his eye made it difficult to see that step?
Wow, Johnny is a world traveler, not unlike the greatest Christian apologist of the 21st century.
Can’t disagree with the Emeritus Pastor there.
Now this is interesting. Was Johnny’s book, “Demolishing Strongholds” really a number one bestseller? I can’t say for sure, but based on the stats I found on Amazon I would say it is doubtful.
Here is another book authored by Johnny Hunt. Notice who endorsed it? Yep, Ravi. BFFs? Maybe that is why Johnny defended Ravi.
Below are all the endorsements. Notice all the SBC luminaries?
For further reading:
A Catastrophic Betrayal: The “Greatest Apologist” was the Greatest Fraud
New Sexual Misconduct Claims Surface About Ravi Zacharius
Cover-Up in the Kingdom: Phone Sex, Lies and God’s Greatest Apologist, Ravi Zacharias
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1
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I have opinions of Hunt but much is speculative. However, Baughman has done a fantastic and credible job in connecting dots. Hunt’s amazing church growth (sarcasm) can easily point to location. 92/575, Woodstock becoming one of the fastest growing areas of north metro Atlanta. Well defined church attendees with few options in the early days, thus, growth, thus programs, thus success for Hunt. In Atlanta, the Atlanta School of Massage is one of the largest and most recognized schools for those pursuing a career in various areas of massage, such as pediatrics, medical massage, deep tissue, etc. The schooling costs close to $12,000, 9 months, then one must take the board exam to become certified before working as a legitimate massage therapist. Baughman’s review of Razi’s 2 locations indicate that those being flown in could not in any way be certified or licensed to practice in the US. Moreover, not far from Johns Creek and Alpharetta is Buford Highway with an assortment of parlors doing the nasty with uncertified therapists. This gives the industry a black eye when there are those that care about their profession. Razi/Hunt would have known this. Hunt would not have needed to travel approx 45 minutes from Woodstock to Johns Creek. A simple view of places to get a massage for back pain, etc in the Woodstock area numbers in excess of 10 locations. There are so many reminders of these men who represent themselves “Holy” but participate knowingly in activities deemed damnable. Who is wartburg against such men? The info continues, all consume it hoping that it ends and men of integrity will come forth, however, it is getting difficult to continue seeing this stuff and knowing….
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Ravi Zacharias as a Doctor, is certainly qualified to judge the ability of a masseuse. I mean it not like he just had an EdD!
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prodinov,
Incredible information! Thank you.
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It’s getting harder to keep track of all the luminaries in the CIC (christian industrial complex).
It’s also getting harder to believe that hard working Christian folk still bankroll these guys.
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And the band plays on….
I just love how “leaders” always seem to either “no nothing about such and such”, or can’t remember…..
If good old RZ’s doesn’t look seedy, I do know what does!
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Opps, “know” not no
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I am sorry but the 2 graduates of Atlanta School of Massage have asked me to also add a few notes. When you take the board exams in one state, such as Georgia, you do not have a license to practice anywhere else in the United States. You have to take a board exam in each state you want to have a license and pay up to $500/yearly. Additionally, course work at Atlanta School of Massage has multiple courses that focus on ethics. For example, when a man is excited, a therapist is licensed to explain to the patient that what they are demonstrating physically is inappropriate and if they continue, they cannot come back. The course work expands upon how and what steps should be taken and any legitimate massage therapy location will not challenge their licensed status to serve unsavory clients. Most Massage Therapist take their career very serious. Also…by state law, to remain licensed, a Massage Therapist MUST take SOAP Notes for each visit. For those in the health area, this is standard: SOAP=Subjective-Objective-Assessment-Plan. Massage Therapist are brow beaten into this part of their profession to never-ever forego the SOAP. Ravi and those like him do not care about the SOAP, only having their personal needs met. Those I know that value their license would never ever compromise whereas foreign women who might not have their passports because someone high up is holding them, fear reprisals. As mentioned, there are no reasons to have women fly in from India if in fact it was for legitimate purposes. Sorry for the length.
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More than that, he beat some of the other megas in the timeline, which I’m sure gave him a competitive edge. I grew up in Johns Creek and have been to FBC Woodstock a number of times. It was a former member of FBCW that encouraged me to go to SEBTS. FBCW was also a big supporter of Liberty and the few students I knew at LU before going there were all from that church.
All your other information is spot on. There are many reputable massage parlors with licensed massage therapists. I used to visit some of them. There are also a lot of disreputable ones. This sounds like trafficking to me.
I am a little surprised that Hunt was offered a position at NAMB, even with the merger of his ministry into it. Hunt is very much on the opposite side of the New Calvinists. But he’s got to be close to retirement now, and I wonder if that was part of the reason.
All I keep wondering is if there are really any decent people left in leadership in the SBC? Even one? Were there ever any?
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As SNAP leaders, David Clohessy & I wrote to then SBC president Johnny Hunt in Nov. 2008, urging “real & meaningful action to rid the ranks of clergy predators and to minister to those who have been wounded.” We made 3 specific suggestions. In February 2009, Hunt wrote back saying “I assure you we are looking into that.” Then… nothing. Guess he’s still “looking.” http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2009/02/looking-into-that.html
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Ishy, do you recall years ago the controversy at First Baptist Woodstock when Ergun Caner preached there? Caner was another celebrity among the SBC at that time. Many Woodstock members challenged Hunt and were escorted from the church. Caner had a sordid and questionable past and the details were well documented but Hunt, as with many others, ignored this and supported Caner even though he was a “fake”. That is only one instance. Our both living in the northern Atlanta suburbs has given us much to ponder as we look backward at the many places we have attended.
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Oh most definitely, both because of living around there and because I went to Liberty. The same thing happened at LU with Caner, with people refusing to believe everything was a lie. It was a huge scandal then. Now we know he was just one of many snake oil peddlers.
Caner came and spoke in one of my classes at Liberty, before he wrote his book and became famous in that crowd. He was a student at SEBTS at the time, but my missions professor had heard his story and invited him (and SEBTS is only a couple hours from LU). I believe it was those connections that eventually led to Caner’s position at LU.
I moved to rural east GA. I was so sick of traffic in Johns Creek (and my dad kept driving straight over all the roundabouts they keep putting in). But it is interesting that a lot of these people are so connected in the SBC. Even me, as merely a bystander in some of these things, but I’ve seen enough slime to last a lifetime.
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Wade Burleson.
Although there are many bad pastors out there, I still believe there are many good ones.
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For a number of years, I was a certified massage therapist, and becoming a certified massage therapist required a certification exam. Although not in Atlanta, the program from which I graduated was accredited, lengthy, and intense. It was was also expensive.
In the program from which I graduated, we were also taught that there were some things which were “beyond our scope of practice”, i.e., there were many areas in which we were neither trained nor qualified, and, as such, we were not legally allowed to practice in those areas.
After graduation, I could have taken specialized massage therapy training in treating vehicular injuries, lymphatic drainage techniques (often needed for women who have had a mastectomy), specific pregnancy techniques, etc..
At one time, I practiced as a massage therapist not far from a “massage parlour”.
One of the things that annoyed me the most (and still annoys me) was being called a “masseuse”, as that term usually references people who practice “massage therapy” out of “massage parlours”.
With so many disreputable “massage therapists”, it is no wonder that massage therapists continue to fight the stigma…..
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Christa Brown,
Dear Daughter of Stan Emeritus
He was having back pain and Ravi was providing excellent masseuses. He forgot about the sex abuse in the SBC…
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prodinov,
Caner is back in higher level education. I will be writing about it soon.
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researcher,
I am so sorry. People like Ravi give faith and massage therapists a bad name.
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Dee….NOOOOOOO! I had to cross reference the name Ergun Caner to see what you meant. I do not know how much more I can handle. I want to read your blog, but this is horrible….I am speechless. I assumed Caner had disappeared. I will try to move forward….but this kind of news is so depressing yet for your readers over the last decade, it is not unexpected that the same group keep making an appearance, especially among the SBC. A tribute that you can maintain your sanity while publishing information that keeps readers apprised….
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SBC is crippled on two fronts in moving forward for Christ: New Calvinism and the good ole boy network. Not all that ails the denomination can be laid at the feet of Mohler and his band of Mohlerites taking over the SBC. Non-Calvinist good ole boys who float to the top of the pot have certainly contributed to SBC’s decline. Rank and file Southern Baptists have been too trusting of their leaders – many have fallen (Patterson, Pressler, Page, etc.) and the Great Commission under their watch has taken a hit as a result. It is increasingly difficult to find a real man of God in SBC ranks to assume a leadership role … oh, they are there, but they serve in obscure places and seldom get promoted out of local churches.
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Johnny Hunt has always given me the creeps, and looking at these videos reminds me why. Insincere, can’t look at the congregation, just oily. I would not be surprised if anything were brought to light.
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Dee,
Six months ago, the idea of Ravi owning massage parlors would have shocked me, and Johnny speaking at the opening is so outrageous, I’m not sure anything is unthinkable at this point.
But I did interpret Hunt to be talking about Ravi’s chronic back pain, not Johnny’s.
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Pastors can be naive but it’s hard to imagine he is this naive. If he is then his discernment and qualification for leadership is in question.
As far as Hunt and NAMB, he worked with the New Calvinists to restructure it toward church planting back in 2008. He worked out a deal where a cooperating church could get their donations to a specific church plant under the NAMB umbrella count as a NAMB donation.
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“On Aug. 12, NAMB announced formation of the Evangelism and Leadership group….. while Hunt casts vision, stirs passion for evangelism among Southern Baptists and mobilizes pastors and churches ”
+++++++++++++++++
“casting vision”…”stirring passion”…. wonder how much Johnny Hunt will be paid for that.
they were reaching with job creation, here.
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… and apparently according to employee testimony, bringing in workers from his native/roots in India, as a work-around of US labor laws, professional licensing, business practice, health standards, safety for women, Christian community oversight.
For those with the right connections, bringing in foreigners as a work-around, circumventing the law, may not be that uncommon, and it is also not in any way Christian.
As Jesus said in His time, Woe to the religious elite who sound good (words, apologists) but live despicable predatory lives, until consequently finding millstones around their necks, to be buried in the deepest sea for Eternity.
Epstein, Cosby, Weinstein, Zacharias? Cosby was beloved until she said, she said, she said, she said, etc. It was not just he said/she said. Ronan Farrow pointed that out about Weinstein. A trail, a pattern, a predator, a legion of witnesses (victims).
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elastigirl,
I would guess in the $500,000 range.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/05/03/the-secret-exorbitant-and-ridiculous-salaries-of-southern-baptist-convention-leadership-and-celebrity-pastors/
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The way the dynamics (based on the spirit of heavily implied bossing by empty manoeuvring) overshadow nominal theology, the “opposite” side is the same side.
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NAMB’s purpose was always church planting, and that was the purpose of the Home Mission Board before it.
Moving money around, that’s not really new, but that’s been a hallmark of the New Calvinists’ leadership, along with lies about why they are moving money around. This was just one step in their plan. Later they would claim IMB had a huge deficit and fire a huge percentage of their missionaries, but magically, that deficit shows up at NAMB the next year.
Too bad the New Calvinists seem to be really bad at math, because planting so many new churches hasn’t stemmed the huge numbers of people leaving the SBC.
I used to help people start online communities, as a hobby. Mainly I helped them with the more technical stuff, setting up the forum or blog software. But I noticed that many of those leaders wanted to pander to their friends, no matter how badly they were behaving. Then they would get upset that everybody else left or they couldn’t get new people. Some of them would get really bossy, trying to keep people from leaving or making rediculous rules about participation. It always just made it worse. Because keeping the misbehaving people usually results in the good people leaving. Then you just have a small group of people who constantly cause trouble and who aren’t really interested in a community atmosphere.
The New Calvinists are very much like this, and it’s destroying them.
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elastigirl,
“… he would be transitioning out of his full-time pastoral position to fulfill a Senior VP ministry for the North American Mission Board.”
I think the publicist should get a prize for coming up with “fulfill a Senior VP ministry.”
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“Evangelism and Leadership group” is a bunch of marketing phooey, too. They’re not really doing anything new here, but the focus might be newish to NAMB. There was already an evangelism dept in NAMB.
NAMB’s purpose is church planting, but it looks to me like they are shifting church consulting out of Lifeway into NAMB. This might be to compete with Thom Ranier’s consulting business and also pull more money into NAMB. COnsulting has become a huge business in the church in general. And it may just be because they got Hunt on board and he didn’t want to move. Lifeway’s also having a lot of financial problems due to competition from Amazon.
Pastors pay for whatever program they create, similar to Caring Well, along with conferences and such. With Hunt at the helm, they gain confidence that they too can learn to be a six-figure megachurch pastor in an oversaturated megachurch market. There’s a lot of gullible pastor wannabes out there; I went to school with a lot of them.
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prodinov,
To me, all of this stuff just highlights the NT prophecy of be “on guard” for “wolfs in sheep’s clothing”…..
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Those are very valid points and continues to raise serious questions about this whole mess!
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2006
https://www.religionnewsblog.com/15745/pastor-steven-flockharts-fall-from-grace-resignation-tied-to-resume-lies
“Pastor Steven Flockhart abruptly abandoned the pulpit at First Baptist Church West Palm Beach late Friday after The Palm Beach Post questioned the fabricated education credentials he used to land the post. Flockhart, 40, submitted a one-line resignation”
“The endorsement from Hunt, the pastor of a 14,000-member church in Woodstock, Ga., was a key reason Flockhart was tapped to lead First Baptist after a three-year search, Mahoney said. Southern Baptist’s fundamentalist wing reveres Hunt”
“Flockhart said he was ‘licensed to preach’ in 1986 by Rev. Hunt and ordained by Hunt in 1990. Hunt appeared via videotape at Flockhart’s first service at First Baptist last month and gave a ringing endorsement of his protégé. Like Flockhart, he also lists a degree from Covington on his résumé. It says he holds an honorary doctorate from the school.”
“The only part of Flockhart’s résumé that checked out was his assertion that he had been accepted at Liberty Theological Seminary “to begin working on a second doctorate. Officials there initially told The Post he was not enrolled. Later, they said they discovered he paid his registration fees directly to seminary President Ergun Caner.”
[Johnny Hunt was a Trustee at Liberty University for a number of years]
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Don Jones,
I agree… it is my experience, the more people like this “talk” the more they raise questions, incriminate themselves.. if Rav’s back was so bad, why wouldn’t he get the best trained medical people to treat it? I am really impressed with modern, highly qualified physical therapy… I know they can not cure everything, but medical treatment based on evidence based science has the data to support their approach…., After all, RZ championed “reason”..
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Under Kevin Ezell’s leadership, the church planting program at NAMB has been more about planting reformed theology, than Gospel churches. New Calvinist graduates from SBC seminaries are lining up to become church (theology) planters with NAMB appointments and funding. Prior to becoming NAMB President, Ezell was Al Mohler’s pastor … think about it.
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My dad told me to never trust a preacher who faked & baked, didn’t wear a tie, and/or wore gold choker chains.
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… acting on the SBC stage.
A touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a bag of gimmicks will take you far in SBC ranks.
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Oh, I know, but with Hunt involved, I think in that case it was mostly either moving the money around or getting more donors that were followers of Hunt. By that point, NAMB had already been “revitalized”, as that started in 2001.
But, like I said, they seem to think that if they plant more church buildings, people will come, but the SBC is losing numbers like crazy. It’s just not working.
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dee,
Yeah. Just as I suspected.
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Yeah. Just a I suspected.
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So was Paige Patterson (who fell from grace) … so was Frank Page (who fell from grace). So are many other traditional non-Calvinist SBC leaders who know how to ride the wave of theological change and benefit personally at the expense of mainline Southern Baptists who didn’t ask for a change in the non-Calvinist identity which characterized the SBC for over 150 years.
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Ezell needed a token non-Calvinist celebrity to appease traditionalists concerned about SBC Calvinization within NAMB and other entities. Hunt won’t actually do much; they just wanted his mug shot on the staff page.
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prodinov,
I can tell by the details in your post that you live/have lived in Atlanta. I also live in Atlanta; I attend a Church of Christ there. On a couple of occasions I’ve driven past First Baptist Woodstock and that place looks HUGE!
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All that glitters is not gold.
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SBC church plants in my area rob folks from other churches, particularly Millennials attracted to the more relaxed atmosphere, free coffee/pastries, cool band, and young reformed preacher-boys.
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Great post there Todd. After J Mac had two separate accusations of looking for hitmen to kill his enemies it was evident that these celebrities can be some of the most wicked people on the planet and anything is possible with them. Sex trafficking is of no surprise to me. If this sticks then RZIM is dead. Makes the two of us wonder what else is out there and with whom that soon enough you will be writing on in the not-too-distant future?
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I was thinking about the issue of trafficking. I know that this is one industry where trafficking is very prevalent, even though I’ve been told (by a law enforcement officer) that they regularly do checks.
I once made a report about a spa. I went there as a birthday present to myself. The spa, which is pretty close to the areas that Ravi’s spas were, has a restaurant and a lot of amenities. I got a chair massage, which I thought was alright at the time. I did find the setting a bit crowded all in one room, but naively, I thought that they had to be licensed. I also ate lunch there and sat in the steam room.
I started feeling ill in the middle of the afternoon and left. A few hours later, I was badly dehydrated and a family member took me to an urgent care. E coli food poisoning. While the doctor was examining me, she noticed I was bruised all over. I had already told her where I had gone that day, and she asked if I got a massage. I said that I did.
A week later, there was a report in the newspaper that the police had raided that spa. They shut down the restaurant because of what they found and arrested a bunch of the massage therapists and a manager, but not the owners. They did later fine the spa as a business.
It’s unfortunate that the people that who gets punished in our culture are not the ones at the top perpetrating trafficking, but those being trafficked. Which is why people like RZ think they can get away with trafficking humans, and they do often get away with it.
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I live in the Bible belt West.
It extends from Los Angeles and San Diego eastward through Arizona and New Mexico.
Even the small-time operators (non-mega) are feeling the pinch of an over-saturated market (fundagelicalism).
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They get away with it because little people cannot afford silver tongued attorneys.
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I don’t doubt it. You’ve got some crazies over there, like Grace.
I think megas are falling out of favor and I think that’s where the fastest losses are coming from. Especially now after people took a long break from them and probably realized they weren’t getting much out of them.
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I was looking over the PPP data and saw what passes as our local mega-church. I know it’s SBC but it does not announce that info publicly in any way. Their loan was processed from another region of the US.
I thought it was odd, and question the whole “autonomous” image. The name on the church suggest a neo-calvinist ideological view.
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There’s a good bit of hinky stuff going on with those, I suspect.
For example: https://julieroys.com/78-6-million-ppp-funds-televangelists-megachurches/
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Cynthia W.,
“… he would be transitioning out of his full-time pastoral position to fulfill a Senior VP ministry for the North American Mission Board.”
I think the publicist should get a prize for coming up with “fulfill a Senior VP ministry.”
++++++++++++++++++++
gaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwd — either my religion is going out of its way to fulfill Orwell’s 1984, or evangelicalism itself was what he foresaw.
“ministry” = oxymoronic word grand prize winner
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That is modus operandi for New Calvinist church plants and “replants” (= takeovers) within SBC. The young reformers attach cool names to their “ministries” with no acknowledgment of SBC affiliation. You ‘might’ find reference to SBC in a remote corner of their website, but the members usually don’t have a clue that they are Southern Baptists. It’s been an orchestrated Calvinization of the largest non-Calvinist denomination in the U.S. through stealth and deception. Doesn’t sound like God to me.
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I figure many of them are starving out during the pandemic. The mega-machinery cannot survive in moth balls for very long … it needs to be fed.
“If this teaching or movement is merely human it will collapse” (Acts 5:39)
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American courts ought to just cut out the middleman and auction off the verdict to the highest bidder.
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Todd Wilhelm,
“I would guess in the $500,000 range.”
++++++++++++++++
huh….. that much to “cast vision” and “stir passion”…
(this really is the silliest religion that ever was)
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New word of prophecy for PASTOR Johnny Hunt, by way of Warren Zevon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2HH7J-Sx80
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Also, their HUGE overhead costs make them very vulnerable.
At least all my denoms’ basillicas and catherdrals were fully amortized long ago.
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“Gold choker chains” with or without the coke-spoon pendant amid the dyed chest hair?
(And what about Mickey Mouse T-shirts and kewpie-doll faux-hawks?)
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Especially the huge overhead of the pastor’s salary….
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Well, they have to spend all those tithes and offerings from hard-working Southern Baptists somehow! Vision and passion have to be worth something! (like the rest of us don’t have any)
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Interesting, Ravi was a Caner defender as was Hunt. Didn’t Hunt take a leave of absence from Woodstock five or more years ago? It all seemed very odd at the time. Keep digging Dee,I’m sure there is more to this Zaccharias story involving SBC heavies.
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2013/10/ergun-caner-platform-guest-at-richard.html?m=1
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I should point out that both spas were at the same location but existed at different times
10990 State Bridge Rd UNIT [or Suite] E, Alpharetta [or Johns Creek], GA 30022
(I assume this location is near the border; perhaps in one city but the post office for the location is in another.)
Touch of Eden 2004-2008
Jivan Wellness 2008-2015 (co-owner changed in 2012)
Also Georgia laws on massage therapists tightened up in 2010. I would guess the therapists on the payroll were legit (or at least not intending to be in the sex trade), but, as their boss he was in a good position to edge them over the line (and if they complained he would be the one believed, one did get fired for complaining).
The statement that Hunt made about Zacharias—“would fly women in from India to do the treatments”—is what Hunt believes; however, we know Zacharias exaggerates (Hunt probably does too). Emily Belz at WORLD (https://world.wng.org/2020/10/new_sexual_misconduct_claims_surface_about_ravi_zacharias) reported that Anna Adesanya, a manager of Jivans Wellnees until 2012, said “Zacharias only went to certain therapists and often brought his own massage therapist, an Indian woman, and they would occupy one of the rooms for therapy sessions”. So we have one Indian woman who might or might not be a licensed massage therapist (there are plenty of Asian-Indians legally in Georgia who could be licensed) who apparently only had Zacharias as a client. I don’t see the evidence yet that he was engaged in more than sexual gratification for himself and grooming/harassing adult women to get it. Note the hinted more serious matters could well be misappropriation of funds or some other economic malfeasance.
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Ruth Ben-Ghiat (author of “Strongmen”) has done extensive work on how a leader is voted in, and then remains & changes an institution via force.
Very much parallels how Calvinistas are described here at TWW. Highly recommend all of her work and interviews. Her documentation of patterns of how these leaders operate is amazingly insightful.
Unique in our times, she says, is how the peoples’ will (such as when a church board voluntarily hires a pastor) will then turn against those very same people via the latently forceful authoritarian self-absorbed leader. He arises, then is revealed for who he is, when it is too late. He then owns the institution, controls it, on his own behalf, for his own self-interest.
In the USA among churches, if a church does actually manage to divest itself from such a leader, it seems he just rises again, taking constituents with him for round two, etc.
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The HMB used to be focused on making converts. Crusades, evangelists, cable tv, radio, “home missionaries,” were all the mix.
Under Ezell, it focuses on setting up new ministers. “Church plants” aren’t groups of Christians who need a new church. It’s a new seminary graduate with a few months of cash from Uncle Kevin. If you make uncle Kevin look good, by being in an unconventional demographic, it can be a few hundred grand.
It hasn’t always been this explicit about being a sugar daddy network. But it is now.
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Erp,
Thanks for the information, Erp.
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Erp,
For what it’s worth, Ravi’s spa business partner, Anurag Sharma, told me they also brought women in from Thailand. So that’s India (Hunt) and Thailand (Sharma.)
I don’t know how seriously to take the trafficking issue. I am just offering one more little piece for the puzzle.
I hope someone is looking into it.
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Did J Mac catch the virus he calls nothing? https://julieroys.com/macarthurs-church-dozen-congregants-covid/
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On any case, the work-around of USA labor laws & practices is glaring & definitely not ethical. Not even adjacent. It’s evil.
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Steven Baughman,
I would trust Sharma’s statement for accuracy more than Hunt since he was a co-owner. I note that refugees including Christian refugees from Myanmar made up a fairly large number of the refugees the US accepted during the years in question so Zacharias could have quite legally sponsored them to come to the US (or, as a famous Christian apologist, would have easy access to those sponsored by evangelical groups and could informally sponsor them). I note some have settled in Georgia (https://gradynewsource.uga.edu/oglethorpe-county-a-safe-haven-for-karen-refugees/). Refugees who have been accepted can legally work. Fine and good. Also fine and good if he supported them getting training and licenses as massage therapists and gave them access to legit jobs in his spas. What would evil is if he then pressured them in any way to provide sex.
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elastigirl,
World-wide wave of madness.
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Why are so many people allergic to the type of church that has a liturgical type of service? People run in panic from anything that remotely looks Catholic, but they will put up with gimmicky shows you see in mega churches. Are fog machines and laser shows what church services are reduced to?
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SBC, as a whole, used to focus on spreading the Gospel. The Home Mission Board (HMB) was all about winning souls for Christ and discipling them. Evangelism was SBC’s denominational gifting … that was forfeited when the New Calvinists took control. Now the mission is spreading reformed theology … NAMB plants theology, not Gospel churches. It’s another gospel which is not the Gospel.
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I asked a friend who runs a ministry in India to look over this article and give me their feedback. This is what they wrote to me for a more India centric view:
“Johnny Hunt recommended Steve Flockhart to our old church in West Palm Beach. Hunt has a whole bunch of guys that use to be addicts turned pastors in his corner. I think that is Hunt’s testimony as well. Flockhart turned out to be a huge phony. Said he had a Ph.D. and we doubt he graduated from HS. Ruined several churches before coming to First Baptist of West Palm Beach. Took all sorts of money from them. Our old church, we are no longer members, gave him roughly 80K to get rid of him. Flockhart and his wife threatened the church I think. He was going to go to the local paper. Flockhart went into a Hunt “rehab” after all that and has now re-emerged in Georgia heading up a church of roughly 800. His kid has a church too. The whole family seems to be scammers yet the SB stands behind them. Pastor Steven Flockhart’s fall from grace, resignation tied to resume lies:
Ravi’s behavior is pretty common for Indian men. Money and women are downfalls for Indian men. Marriage and family is a duty. After kids, the adults can pretty much have outside relationships without much problem. A high % of Indian men cheat and women put up with it. Most of our IT sector is Indian. The Indian bosses bring in slave labor and they take a “fee” for getting them a job in America. It is corrupt and going on under our noses in the IT sector. I think almost all big tech people employ this system. Coming to America is a prestigious thing for Indians. The families want a family member to get out and then send money home. They will endorse it. Indian people really don’t condemn others. They are jealous it is not them. Totally different mindset than we have. I never was a fan of Ravi Zacharias. I don’t have much respect for a guy that never did anything to reach Indians for Christ. He did very little work in India. Ravi wasn’t even a good student in India from what I have heard.
The Southern Baptist convention is splitting up and re-splitting. They are having loads of problems. Black pastors are leaving it because they will not embrace systematic racism which is Marxism. We don’t think this convention is even Scriptural.”
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Jacob,
That is a GREAT question….. I remember many years ago going to a “High Church” and very much appreciated the liturgy and all the symbolism… in fact, it was clearly more “Biblical” than listening to many of these “preacher boys”….: they replaced the “idolatry” of High Church with the idol worship of celebrity preacher boys..
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Fog machines replaced incense, lasers replaced candles, pastors on big screens replaced icons, “Jesus weejus” prayers replaced liturgical prayers, drawn out expository sermons replaced short homilies, specialty coffees replaced the eucharist, church consultants replaced tradition, skinny jeans replaced robes, among other things. But other than that…
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i.e. above-the-law spiritual hubris, the for-our-times interpretation of idolatry, is evil in any brand: traditional or pop-contemporary. Pride is the deadliest of sins. Key.
It seems pop culture Hybels and a lovely-liturgy-diocese hiding evil clergy, as well as PhD-poser-apologists all share common ground.
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… another gospel replaced ‘the’ Gospel.
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I heard Ravi Zacharias speak at a big meeting in Chennai, India many, many years ago. He was there with his wife. I have to wonder if RZ was getting massages overseas or in any travels for his ministry work? If so, there are a whole lot more victims out there than we realize.
Massage is a very common therapy in India for many ailments. Kerala is known for therapeutic massages. Did he convince others this was a part of his culture? It seems to me that RZ really took time and effort to think this plan out. Took a lot of effort to manipulate others to get it all in place. That is pretty telling. It all seems very predatory. I also find it odd that members of his family were on his board. According to ECFA guidelines that is not acceptable. I guess ECFA doesn’t check. So what does ECFA do to provide accountability?
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Actually, the liturgy is very much focused on Christ. The Bible is handled reverently, it isn’t thumped or waved around like it is a weapon. And the church year takes you through the Bible in a three-year cycle. So the sermons through the year have to be about a lot of topics, not just whatever are the top three or four issues the pastor likes to talk about. It can be very refreshing.
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A genuine strong point in a movement I had to drop out of was that the Bible studies themselves, when unalloyed (if possible) with manoeuvrings, were comparatively solid, so I look back gratefully for that much.
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Maybe at your church, but I don’t buy it on the whole. This varies widely even in the same denominations. Liturgy is not a fix for hard hearts or complacency, just as a contemporary service is not a fix for that.
I grew up in a liturgical church (LCMS). My early adult life was spent in contemporary churches. I spent several years searching for a new church recently and went to both liturgical and contemporary services. The most boring service I went to was a very traditional service, where the pastor almost fell asleep during her sermon. I did count four people behind me asleep during the service. The Bible wasn’t handled reverently, but barely at all, except for being carried in at the beginning of the service. I could say the same for my last contemporary church, with a superstar SBC pastor, who barely mentioned the Bible during the service.
The answer isn’t in the type of service; it’s in the people, just as Ava said. I am a classical singer. I like classical music. But people who do the same things by rote every day or week lose touch with the content (and yes, I think contemporary services can be just as rote as liturgical services).
I don’t think people in general handle repetition well unless it’s something mindless or not important. The best liturgical church I visited did a different culture’s style liturgical service every week, which I thought rather creative. Even communion in a contemporary service breaks up the routine. But routine makes people behave better and a lot of churches like that, not for any spiritual reason, but because it allows them to control the emotions of the congregation. Anyone who’s been on a worship choir or team knows that church leaders think about how to control the emotions of members. And I think it’s the reason many contemporary churches avoid regular communion or prayer services, because those services break the routine.
All people doing this about people, not God, not the Bible.
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I will say that my own preacher doesn’t always wear a tie. But he doesn’t “fake and bake” (does that mean, getting a fake tan?) and he doesn’t wear gold choker chains. And while we do have a praise band, we don’t do fog machines and laser shows. 🙂
I grew up Baptist, with a choir and a sermon. I’m now a “progressive” Church of Christer; i.e. we have a praise team, a praise band, and women participate in all roles but the eldership. I appreciate the relative simplicity of our worship: we sing, we take communion, we listen to a sermon, we contribute money.
I also have attended my mother in law’s Lutheran church on occasion, and I can appreciate their liturgical approach. It’s a good reminder of the history and tradition of the Church down through the years.
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I’ll amen that!!
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The family aspect appears to go in the hirelings / grievous wolves playbook as frequently as the musical chairs aspect. The latter of which were markers of catholic / mainline abuse scandals and therefore should’ve been a prime focus of the evangelical institutions that decried such behavior.
Of course, transparency, accountability, and oversight get in the way of maximizing $$$ and minimizing challenges to power and control. Mix in the predator aspect to the power plays, and an environment where abuse on multiple levels can thrive can be created with the greatest of ease — over and over again.
The lack of interest on so many fronts to police and expose the repeat offenders cuz liability, hard work, and dearth of prioritization is of course aided by congregational propensities to cede oversight power to “elders“ and pastors with “vision”. Someone else can always fix the problem, why bother getting invested, we are just going to use the programs we need, etc. Rinse, repeat.
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Cynthia W.,
he is being ontologically transubstantiated to the right hand of on high
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Todd, is this article a means of reform of the SBC¿
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4826n_gMxY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28d_A_NuJ7A&list=RD28d_A_NuJ7A&start_radio=1
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Todd, What church org isn’t bs?
Churches are nowdaz murdereing f0lk with lack of COVID. Safeguards…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8Z6Y82zQSU
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Additionally, rather than just using the word as a noun, they also use it as an adjective and an adverb. Everything has to be gospel-soaked/saturated/infused/centered/etc.
In the case of Calvinist churches, the good news is some (and only some) have been chosen to be saved from eternity past, and there is nothing they can do to change it, while everyone else has been chosen for eternal conscious torment, and there is nothing they can do to escape it.
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Not long ago I was very seriously thinking about becoming Eastern Orthodox. You will hear far more bible in an EO service than in any non-liturgical service, and without all the special effects. I find that most protestants know almost nothing about EO.
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Ken F–
While that is the message of the majority of Calvinists, it is not the message of all Calvinists. Or Lutherans. There are differences: see the Primitive Baptist Universalists, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church new catechism, etc. There are also those who call themselves “moderate Calvinists” who believe in corporate predestination, not individual. That means no individual is damned or born bound for glory, but that those who reject Christ are damned already and those that repent and believe in Christ are “in Christ” and all who are “in Christ” are predestined for heaven.
A generation ago what are today called “Calvinist” would have been called “hyper Calvinist” and rejected by those who were “Calvinist.”
That makes for muddy waters for those trying to navigate theology these days. Suffice it to say there are many who reject Arminianism, who reject hyper Calvinism, reject dispensationalism, are no form of Catholic, and are not Lutheran who are nevertheless Protestants. We really need new terms. Reformed Arminianism (yes it exists) is very different from Wesleyan Arminianism. Outside of Lutheran circles (I am Lutheran) Lutherans are considered a “form of reformed but not Reformed.”
Maybe we need new terms, lol. Your passage I quoted is accurate enough for some hyper Calvinists. But then again they could turn right around and say Jesus doesn’t save anyone but leaves us to either work our way to heaven or believe the right theology our way to heaven, which means He accomplished nothing at the cross. And of course there is a third way: evangelical universalism. It says the Arminians are correct re the scope of the atonement, the hyper Calvinists are right re the success of the atonement, hell is real and to be avoided but purgative, not eternal. But torment never the less and who wants to go there?
When we boil each theology down to a one sentence form, which makes more sense?
Hyper Calvinism: Jesus saved a select few. He may or may not have damned the rest. (Not all Calvinists are double predestination.)
Calvinism: Jesus saved those in Christ.
Lutheranism: Jesus saved a select few. He damned no one.
Reformed Arminianism: Jesus will save anyone who comes to Him, but you can blow it and be damned permanently.
Wesleyan Arminianism: Jesus will save anyone who comes to Him, but if you blow it and are redamned you can repent and be restored.
Dispensationalism: Jesus will save anyone who comes to Him, cannot lose salvation.
Evangelical Universalism: Jesus saves everyone, but not until they repent and believe. Punishment only lasts until a person repents and believes.
Obviously Christians don’t always see eye to eye!
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I wonder if we need different language to described these highly visible flameouts. “Grace” is such a theologically loaded term, and in many instances, it’s not clear that the person in question was ever radically different from what he was eventually revealed to be. Perhaps they didn’t “fall” so much as “slip up” and provide a watching world too clear a glimpse of who they always were.
Perhaps better would be “fell from public favor”.
This would also acknowledge the reality that a lot (not all, but a lot) of what passes for “church” in our day is about “pleasing people” rather than “honoring God.”
Just thinking out loud.
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I’ve wondered about the Eastern Orthodox church. A few years ago I got the Orthodox Study Bible and eagerly read it. I am curious that if you are not of the ethnicity of a certain church, will you fit in? Or are you a “foreigner” in church? I kind of like that the Church of Rome professes to be “universal” and not, say, the “Italian Orthodox Church,” lol. I found a couple of things like Purgatory that kept me from Rome.
I tend to blame abuse on how some churches are organized, like a non-denominational church is essentially “Pastor Bob’s Church” with little oversight. But there is also abuse in highly organized churches. It’s all discouraging.
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This is one of the big problems with EO in the US. In places like Greece, one is simply Orthodox. In the US, Orthodoxy developed as a means to serve the needs of migrants, so it ended up being fractured along ethnic lines. There really should be only one Orthodox church in the US. For many years EO has been trying to get there, but church politics always gets in the way because the different ethnicities are under different patriarchs.
As to your question about whether or not you would feel like a foreigner, it depends on the congregation. I spent quite a few months checking out the only English speaking EO church in my area, which is Syrian Orthodox. Its priest is an American who grew up UMC, and about half of the members are former protestants. There are very few people there whose first language is not English. The only way I felt like a foreigner was with the Orthodox culture and tradition. It is so very different from my protestant upbringing. It takes time to understand it and get used to it. I once heard it said you cannot understand it from the outside or explain it from the inside. They don’t pressure you into converting, so there is all the time you want.
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Words vs deeds (evidence).
It is troubling when the Bible is used as camouflage. Yet the Bible itself documents the enemy tempting Jesus himself with the Word of God, and then Jesus answers with Scripture.
Jesus also warns regarding the religious elite who have the right words but contradictory & evil behavior. Indeed the religious elite put the Son of God on the cross in the name of their “righteous” cause. Could anything be more wrong?
Listen (words), yes, but also watch (deeds) & be on guard.
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Resulting in something like the monastic gang-fights over who does what in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre?
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With all of this talk about liturgical vs. more modern styles of worship service I think that the bottom line has been completely lost in the conversation. These styles are a matter of personal preference. The number one priority I see happening is that people are looking for an environment that they like. And yet Jesus warned us about how we, in these end times, would pursue teachers who would tell us what we only want to hear and would therefore be deceived by men. The bottom line is personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Going into any church building by itself will not save you no matter how great the worship, teaching or bible emphasis is. If the style is your focus or just pleasing yourself then you are already on a path that leads away from Jesus Christ.
The Holy Spirit is The Teacher, not your pastor or local denomination theologians. We must be led by that. A good church, regardless of style, will point you to Jesus and then get the hell out of the way! The abusive churches we highlight here point you to the celebrity in the spotlight who tells you not how to think but what to think. Most Christians today I see are relying on religious substitutes for this personal relationship with a Spirit we cannot see. Yet, your local pastor, no matter how good he might be, cannot do what only the Spirit can do for you.
Part of what happened in March was a test to see how stable Christians are when their religious routine gets interrupted by a huge crisis. If Jesus is your bottom line, then you can go without the routine for a while without falling all to pieces. Those who fell to pieces were not standing on a rock but rather trying to stand on some other faulty human who claims to stand on a rock. But this will not work even if that person or persons do have a solid relationship with Jesus Himself. The bottom line is the church provoking you to rely on a Spirit you cannot see or on their own religious system? In a time of crisis, only one of those will stand. The talk about externals is just fluff. There are people stumbling and falling right now in every kind of church with every kind of church culture under the sun. But do you hear the Spirit? If that were to come to you and tell you that you are on shaky ground and need to move, either physically or spiritually speaking, can you hear such a voice? It is not human.
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I have been on the receiving end of Weaponized Scripture.
And a lot you probably have, too. Otherwise you wouldn’t be here.
(Anyone remember the Eighties Pat Benatar song, “Stop Using Sex as a Weapon?” That holds for the other S-word, too — SCRIPTURE(TM).)
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Noe even when they quote the exact same chapters and verses for Divine justification?
(That’s one of the things that got me regarding End Time Prophecy Plain Readings — quoting the exact same verses to Prove completely-opposite claims.)
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Until “Gospel” becomes like “Smurf” or “Marclar” — a meaningless all-purpose adjective used everywhere.
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These preacher-men could teach the Saudi Royal Family or the Kims of North Korea lessons about nepotism.
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Thailand, the Sex Tourism capital of the world?
“One Night in Bang Cock…”
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i.e. A jobs program for Preacher-Boyz and their relatives, nothing more.
All the wanna-be preacher boyz, all trying to keep up the Furticks and reach the heights of the Copelands.
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Must keep up with the Furticks.
And build a bigger dragon hoard than Ken Copeland.
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Remember: “TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!”
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I always think it’s funny when, particularly the evangelicals, claim something is “biblical” like it’s some grand absolute, and even the people in their own church don’t agree with them on that topic. I think many use that phrase as a discussion ender because they really don’t understand the issue at all to begin with.
It is confusing, no doubt.
I’m coming to my own conclusion that knowledge was never the point. I know people so obsessed with “right theology” that it’s clearly their idol and only god. And they care way more about winning some argument than if their neighbor is dying.
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“Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace, you…”
— John Lennon 1971 —
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I think there’s certain personality disorders that definitely get marked as “leaders” in evangelicalism. I’m certain there were red flags from the beginning, but past leaders taught those church members to look for the red flags instead of to avoid them. I know some Christians in New Calvinism who believe they deserve bad leaders because “God said”.
I can tell you that Paige Patterson or Jerry Falwell, Jr didn’t change much at all. Falwell, Sr. might have changed. He did not have the same kind of personality and he seemed to care about individuals in ways that his son and Patterson did not.
Macarthur strikes me as one of those people that was always a bit off, but really went off the deep end in the past ten years or so. Money and fame went to his head. Grace is not much from a cult. A former member told me she believed they even intentionally adopted strategies from Scientology now, because of the power those strategies allow them to hold over members.
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Yes, we probably offend God when we refer to “Christians” falling from grace. Within the evangelical realm, there’s too much talk about grace-this and grace-that (particularly within New Calvinism). IMO, most of these folks only know grace theologically, but have never experienced a touch of Grace – an encounter with the living Christ.
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Such characters had only favor of the public for a season, but were never under the favor of God, IMO.
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There are too many ministries in America who have the “old man” in the pulpit, not the “new man.”
“If a man is in Christ he becomes a new person altogether — the past is finished and gone, everything has become fresh and new.” (2 Corinthians 5:17 Phillips)
“I may consider that I died on the cross with Christ. And my present life is not that of the old “I”, but the living Christ within me.” (Galatians 2:20 Phillips)
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Anonymous Baptist,
“Under Ezell, it focuses on setting up new ministers. “Church plants” aren’t groups of Christians who need a new church. It’s a new seminary graduate with a few months of cash from Uncle Kevin. If you make uncle Kevin look good, by being in an unconventional demographic, it can be a few hundred grand.”
++++++++++++
might as well be mary kay cosmetics. or herbalife, amway, etc.
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Gospel-centered coffee, gospel-centered donuts, gospel-centered hairdos, etc. I actually heard a young New Calvinist preacher say “I am the gospel.”
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A good analogy. There is a New Calvinism pyramid within SBC … Al Mohler sits on the apex.
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Jacob,
“People run in panic from anything that remotely looks Catholic, but they will put up with gimmicky shows you see in mega churches.”
++++++++++++++++
the subtext in evangelicalism is that no one is really saved, no one’s really legit, except for evangelicals themselves.
another subtext is to never question your leaders, but to cheerfully obey them.
i observe my fellow evangelicals to be very naive & gullible. They’ve been groomed to be scared of lots of things. there are streaks of paranoia running through it all. (but maybe that’s most religions)
yes, many do run in panic away from catholic, eastern orthodox, even from suspect lutheran, methodist, episcopal, anglican…
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Max,
“Now the mission is spreading reformed theology …”
++++++++++++++
and franchises for the ‘royalties’.
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You took the words out of mouth…. 🙂
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Interesting word choice. If a donut is defined by what is missing in the center, then maybe “gospel-centered donuts” is a good way to describe this movement.
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This is pretty much a useless standard in isolation because one could argue that even masochists are only following what they want to hear. There is no expresssion of Christianity in any time or in any place that could not rightfully be accused of pursuing teachers who will tell them what they want to be told.
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Yeah, I’ve had people throw proof texts at me and tell me I don’t know the Bible. I have been disinvited from a church because I don’t have a problem with evolution. I’ve seen personality cults up close. But these were really just annoyances compared with the actual abuse some people have been subjected to.
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This is an interesting observation because I have never found a group that identifies itself as Calvinist while at the same time rejecting unconditional election. Even the 4-point Calvinists teach unconditional election. The denominations you mention don’t describe themselves as Calvinists. But I suppose it is possible that there are groups who reject the core teachings of Calvin while still calling themselves Calvinists. As for Hyper-Calvinism, I am not aware of any New-Calvinists or traditional Calvinists (even the most ardent) who do not reject Hyper-Calvinism. But this comes back to definitions because Hyper-Calvinism was a specific 18th century movement that does not apply to most Calvinists today.
“Reformed” is also a very squishy word because it can mean anything from 5-point Calvinsm to every single protestant denomination. Technically, Arminians are reformed, but many who call themselves reformed would exclude Armimians (and would also exclude most New-Calvinists).
I agree with you that we need better words to discuss all of this.
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researcher,
It’s the difference between being “wrong” about an issue and being on the “wrong side” of an issue. Once you are labeled as being on the “wrong side” of something, that’s it. You are of the enemy tribe even if no other tribe will have you.
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
I remember “sword drills”! They cite a verse, whoever gets it first stands up and reads it! And of course, when sword drills are introduced, all of metaphoric “battle verse” are cited…. great way to “rev up” elementary school kids.. and get them ready later in life to through a scripture reference at any problem, issue, question!
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You and I must be in the same tribe. We know we are in this tribe because we cannot find any others who are in it, other than in blogs like this.
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To my shame, I was an eager participant.
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Reformed icon R.C. Sproul taught that there is no such beast as a 4-Point Calvinist if such person really understands Calvinism.
“There is confusion about what the doctrine of limited atonement actually teaches. However, I think that if a person really understands the other four points and is thinking at all clearly, he must believe in limited atonement because of what Martin Luther called a resistless logic. Still, there are people who live in a happy inconsistency. I believe it’s possible for a person to believe four points without believing the fifth, although I don’t think it’s possible to do it consistently or logically. However, it is certainly a possibility given our proclivity for inconsistency.”
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/sproul-on-four-point-calvinism/
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The dilemma here is no one really understands Calvinism because for every interpretation of Calvinism there is at least one group of self-identified Calvinists who will reject it as a misunderstanding of real Calvinism.
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Max,
I live in a “happy inconsistency” that I can do experiments that show electrons are particles, and then do an experiment that shows electrons have “wave like” properties ( it is actually more accurate to say they have properties that are best described as a probability distribution … not a single particle) … PS it is not very hard to go in the lab and do this…
Herein lies the true arrogance of many of theses theologians, or pseudo theologian…. they “put down” others that do not agree with them, quite often as the “others” are intellectually inferior…
yet, the very nature of reality.. like the basic properties of electrons!, is a conundrum.. there are many more examples in the physical world like this…
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This is only true if you think there are two sides. There’s millions. Just go somewhere else. Does God even care about the sides at all?
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Todd, my cousin says you’re spreading false news. Course he went to Hunt’s church so would defend him. I also heard the same thing when I showed someone the article about Ravi. People think all these articles are speculative. What say everyone?
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Also. I was told Johnny Hunt gives away quite a bit of his “independently wealthy” funds. Could not find anything on the web.
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I’ve gotten the same treatment in a secular context.
“Just like an Intellectual Snob, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
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I’ve found that it’s perfectly reasonable to eschew any ‘tribe’ and exist solely on one’s own merits alone.
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The Book of Homer Simpson?
“OOOOOOO! DONUTS!!!!!”
Not much distance between there and “I AM GOD!”, is there?
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“Winning isn’t Everything — Winning is THE ONLY THING!”
— Henry Sanders or Vince Lombardi, Football Coaches
“The Winner is never asked if he has won fairly, only whether He Has WON.”
— Adolf Hitler, Cult Leader
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That’s one of the beauties of science, it will tolerate no bull-poo-poo.
In my opinion, much of ‘theology’ is built on bull-poo-poo.
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Is that like “kicked upstairs”?
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Nuttshell,
With respect RZ,I personally attended several of his “lectures” years ago, and I was lead to believe he had a EARNED Ph.D. and did all the things at the “prestigious English schools”, unlike us “commoners”. (These are well documented LIES). With respect to his behavior with women, the stuff coming out from his side, let alone the “other side”, is down right creepy.. Given RZ has LIED about his academic credentials, with in my world would get you FIRED, I believe the stuff about women from the “other side”, which means his behavior is much worse than “creepy”..
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“These men have set up and honored their idols in their hearts and have put right before their faces the vile stumbling block of their wickedness and guilt” (Ezekiel 14:3)
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“Dr.” Steve. Please, I pray, tell me that you are not really a “doctor” of some type or other. It just doesn’t fit the quality of doctors of various types who I have known. This post appears to be a serious, informative, and very disturbing post, and all you have to offer is a “1”??? I have pondered and read every serious word on this post, as I do on all posts here. Why do you even bother to comment at all and to belittle the post with your ridiculous, childish, and useless charade??? I wonder, again….is this blog a farce, a joke? I have wondered this more and more in the past year. Am I being duped and taken for a fool on Wartburg Watch. Is this blog really a scam and your “1” is the clue??
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ishy,
Governments are good at telling us what they plan to do about the problem of human trafficking and the annual TiP report is a long read. Looking at the statistics over the years, one is struck by how little things change.
https://www.state.gov/reports/2020-trafficking-in-persons-report/
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Yes.
What you also mention has been noted by others over the years.
Personally, IMHO, the amazing work of TWW far outweighs this. It can seem a bit off so one can skip past & move on.
TWW bravely reaches out to the world with important concerns. Bravo. Ever grateful. The world is a big place with diverse experiences, POV, sensitivities.
Re: predation of minors in the church, there is no diverse POV here, thank God; no ambivalence (like in the church at large which can be a hunting ground for predators, unfortunately).
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Like “Hooliganism” in Russian law, “Calvinism” means whatever whoever’s in POWER says it means. And Calvinists have a LOT of Those in Supreme Power, no two of which agree.
And there can be only ONE One True Calvinism.
Let the Game of Theological Thrones begin.
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jojo,
I for one, have independently validated at least some of the original posts on TWW, and I take it, unfortunately, very seriously..
But, I do not take Steve’s comments as sarcastic… just a little light heartiness in middle of VERY depressing/upsetting info
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Yes, childish… This blog is public and exists to benefit others, not to give opportunity to solely exercise one’s ego. This antic mars things in a number of ways, one being integrity. Put some effort in. Gives pause in wondering if there are other aspects in life where insertion of being #1 happens without doing work.
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Well, now I have to reevaluate my theory because you actually DO seem to understand Calvinism. Or did I misunderstand?
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They DELIBERATELY copied Elron Hubbard?
GCC TRULY IS “JUST LIKE SCIENTOLOGY, EXCEPT CHRISTIAN(TM)!!!!!”
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I’m happy for you 🙂
Did Sproul ever look very happy to you? The more I think about it, I’ve known numerous 5-Point Calvinists … I can’t say that “happy” would be the first descriptor of their lives. Indeed they always came across with a mean-spirited “unhappy consistency” when discussing their aberrant faith. I think in their heart of hearts most of them knew they were wrong.
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And Calvin wouldn’t agree with any of them!
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Who’s Calvin?
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from predestination unto predestination
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Max,
You make a good point with respect to many theologians… from what I have read, Calvin did not seem to enjoy life very much…. plus, I think he had some chronic aliment… but, given how “bad” living conditions were in European cities back then, he probably was not the only one..
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Thank you!! Every single post, I have the same reaction, for years. I used to post occasionally, but honestly, the 1 shenanigans turned me off so much that I quit reading for awhile. Silly of me, maybe, but I just have a strong negative reaction to it, especially on the more serious posts.
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Dint he used to make jeans and after-shave?
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Muff Potter,
🙂
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Muff Potter,
Thanks. Got it. It does all seem like branding.
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Very much agreed. This blog has a long history of humor, as well as sharing memories, recipes, petty gripes, anecdotes, song lyrics, etc.
It’s worthwhile to check the FAQ page, which lists many of the nicknames given to the blog’s founders, as well as a link to the official blog theme song, “Snoopy Vs. the Red Baron,” by the Royal Guardsmen.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/about-tww/about-us-our-faq/
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Friend,
We leading males should adopt Royal Guardsmen wigs to signal our distinctives.
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
“Scientology” was only ever fundamentalism with a bit of “white heat” thrown in. In fundamentalism, the shibboleth killeth. Mimetics = memetics. Fake it to fake it. Counter one wodge of half baked package dealing with another wodge of half baked package dealing (dialectic a.k.a pincer movement, I know what one of those looks like from the inside).
They should leave “DNA” to the algae and the amoebas. Holy Spirit is Person.
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Sproul struck me as kind of smug in the DVD series of his that I saw. It was a lengthy series called, IIRC, “Foundations”, basically a survey of systematic theology from a classic Reformed perspective. The presentation was a mock classroom setting, with seated students facing RC, who faced the camera, with a chalkboard behind him.
A vivid memory of that series was a lecture on soteriology. After establishing the standard systematic and text proofs of limited atonement, he turned to the seated audience and said, with a big smile, “so Jesus didn’t die for everyone.” At the time, I was persuaded of the validity of the logic of TULIP, but the evident pleasure he expressed in making this statement struck me as dismaying.
A less vivid, but still pretty firm, memory from that series was one of the lectures on eschatology. IIRC, in the lecture on “rewards and punishments”, he affirmed that the Christian life was so difficult that if it weren’t for the promise of reward and the threat of punishment, he would not want to follow Jesus.
For my part, it has always seemed to me that one follows, or ought to follow, Jesus because he is good and true and beautiful, not because of lust for gain or fear of loss.
That remark was, for me, the end of any interest in anything else the man might say. It is out of the heart that a person’s words flow.
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Sounds like something the serpent in the wilderness would say. Calvinism’s doctrine of limited atonement is certainly nothing to smile about. Wonder if Sproul has a grin on his face now?
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As Dave Hunt would say “What love is this?”
I have never found hyper-Calvinists a very loving bunch. “You will know them by their love” just doesn’t apply to them.
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If I had to boil it down to my most basic complaint about Calvinism and Calvinists it would be their insistence (and often glee) that God is pleased and glorified to eternally punish the majority of humanity with unendurable torture when he could save everyone. In their view, it appears to be a lack of faith to grieve for the condemned (even loved ones) because God doesn’t grieve for them. The underlying callousness of the theological system makes no sense to me.
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Sounds like he never grew up. Imagine having a marriage or friendships like that. But who are we to question the esteemed teacher? This way of thinking seems to be the foundation for healthy churches in the 9Marx way.
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That goes for me, too. I always thought at least some people I know who chose that theology system cared more about being special to God and others condemned than whether or not it was true. Which then made me wonder if any of their beliefs were really about theology, as they say, or personal bias.
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Jeffrey J Chalmers,
Calvin was a frail man who suffered from a number of ailments – from gout, kidney stones, tuberculosis, and intestinal parasites, frequent gastro-intestinal bleeding.
Samuel Conner,
The classroom setting for tv isn’t a new feature – at least, not in the UK. Back in the 1960s the late Professor William Barclay taught theology in this way. It was revolutionary in its day – Theology on mainstream television? – but it was marvellous stuff, even though he held distinctly unreformed views on some things. RC Sproul senior, also appeared on tv here and I found him to be warm and gracious and frequently with a smile on his face.
Max,
Nice to see you’re ending the year with your usual goodwill to all men except Calvinists, Max.
I’ll leave you all with last night’s ‘Evening Thought’ by Octavius Winslow, a Reformed Baptist pastor from another time. This is what Calvinists believe. Wishing you all God’s richest blessings for 2021.
“DECEMBER 30. “The Lord is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me?” Psalm 118:6
God must be on the side of His people, since He has, in an everlasting covenant, made Himself over to be their God. In an especial manner, and in the highest degree, He is the God of His people. In the most comprehensive meaning of the words, He is for us. His love is for us—His perfections are for us—His covenant is for us—His government, extending over all the world, and His power over all flesh, is for us. There is nothing in God, nothing in His dealings, nothing in His providences, but what is on the side of His people. Enshrined in His heart, engraved on His hand, kept as the apple of His eye, God forms a mighty bulwark for His church. “As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the Lord is round about His people from henceforth even forever.” In Christ Jesus, holiness, justice, and truth, unite with mercy, grace, and love, in weaving an invincible shield around each believer. There is not a purpose of His mind, nor a feeling of His heart, nor an event of His providence, nor an act of His government, that is not pledged to the happiness, the security, the well-being of His people. What Joshua said to the children of Israel, trembling to encounter the giants of Anak, may be truly said to every believer in view of his foes, “The Lord is with us, fear them not.”
Not the Father only, but the Son of God, is also on our side. Has He not amply proved it? Who, when there was no eye to pity, and no arm to save, undertook our cause, and embarked all His grace and glory in our salvation? Who slew our great Goliath, and rescued us from Pharaoh, discharged our debt, and released us from prison? Who extinguished the fires of our hell, and kindled the glories of our heaven? Who did all this by the sacrifice of Himself? Oh, it was Jesus! Need we further proof that He is for us? Who appears on our behalf within the veil? Who sits for us as a priest upon His throne? Whose blood, first shed on Calvary, now sprinkles the mercy-seat? Who pleads, and argues, and intercedes, and prays for us in the high court of heaven? Whose human sympathy flows down in one continuous stream from that abode of glory, blending with our every trial, and suffering, and sorrow? Who is ever near to thwart our foes, and to pluck our feet from the snare of the fowler? Oh, it is Christ! And there is not a moment of time, nor a circumstance of life, in which He does not show Himself strong in behalf of His people.
And so of the Holy Spirit. Who quickened us when we were dead in trespasses and in sins? Who taught us when we were ignorant, enlightened us when we were dark, comforted us when we were distressed; and when wounded and bleeding, and ready to die, led us, all oppressed with guilt and sorrow as we were, to Jesus? Who inspired the first pulsation of life, and lighted the first spark of love; who created the first ray of hope in our soul, and dried the first tear of godly grief from our eye? Oh, it was the eternal Spirit, and He, too, is for us.
Survey the record of your own history, dear reader. What a chequered life yours, perhaps, has been! How dotted the map of your journeyings, how many-colored the stones that have paved your path, how varied and blended the hues that compose the picture of your life! And yet, God constructed that map, God laid those stones, God pencilled and painted that picture. God went before you, God is with you, and God is for you. He was in the dark cloud that enshrouded all with gloom, and He was in the sunshine that gilded all with beauty. “I will sing of mercy and of judgment; unto You, O Lord, will I sing.” Who has carried forward the work of grace in our souls—checking our feet, restoring our wanderings, holding up our goings, raising us when we had fallen, and establishing our feet more firmly upon the rock? Who has befriended us when men rose up against us? Who has healed all our diseases, and has filled our mouths with good things, so that our youth has been renewed list the eagle’s? It was the Lord who was on our side, and not one good thing of all that He has promised has failed.”
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These chosen ones take too much pleasure in condemnation of the damned.
“I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!” (Ezekiel 18:32)
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I see little difference between Sproul’s god and the gods of the Aztecs and Mayans.
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Yes, and I think the leading males in perruque should post their avatars for the leading females to admire. I’m sure we are all awaiting the signal. 😉
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It all boils down to what he means by “His people.” Is it everyone or just the elect who were chosen in eternity past?
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Ken F (aka Tweed),
Lol. You know the answer Ken.
But here is what Calvin himself says in his exposition of Ezekiel 18:23.
“We hold, then, that God wills not the death of a sinner, since he calls all equally to repentance, and promises himself prepared to receive them if they only seriously repent. If any one should object—then there is no election of God, by which he has predestinated a fixed number to salvation, the answer is at hand: the Prophet does not here speak of God’s secret counsel, but only recalls miserable men from despair, that they may apprehend the hope of pardon, and repent and embrace the offered salvation. If any one again objects—this is making God act with duplicity, the answer is ready, that God always wishes the same thing, though by different ways, and in a manner inscrutable to us. Although, therefore, God’s will is simple, yet great variety is involved in it, as far as our senses are concerned. Besides, it is not surprising that our eyes should be blinded by intense light, so that we cannot certainly judge how God wishes all to be saved, and yet has devoted all the reprobate to eternal destruction, and wishes them to perish. While we look now through a glass darkly, we should be content with the measure of our own intelligence. (1 Cor. 13:12.) When we shall be like God, and see him face to face, then what is now obscure will then become plain. But since captious men torture this and similar passages, it will be needful to refute them shortly, since it can be done without trouble.”
And so we leave 2020 where we started – blaming Calvin for all the woes in the SBC and in the world, when in fact, the truth of the matter is that we are raging against God and what He clearly teaches in His word. Let’s hope that 2021 will be different.
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I suppose it depends on who “we” includes. Do you agree that one can hate Calvinism without hating Calvinists?
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As I’ve said before, LS, I don’t really have a problem with classical Calvinists. I’ve worshiped alongside many and found them to be civil in their discourse and respectful of other expressions of faith. But there are two categories of reformed knuckleheads who continue to disrupt the Church of the Living God: rabid Hyper-Calvinists and rebel New Calvinists. While I wish them goodwill at the end of this year, I certainly don’t wish them success with their agendas for the new year. But, I’ll always pray that they find the way, the truth, and the life while they still have breath.
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You lay out the problem with Calvin quite well right here. One verse in scripture turned into paragraphs (in other places chapters) by Calvin.
It is okay for people to know and believe God without ever having heard of Calvin.
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Speaking of Jesus dying on the cross for our sins …
… that comment kinda doesn’t seem to fit with the story of Jesus with the thief on the cross.
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And to read their Bibles without Calvin & Calvin-parrots looking over their shoulder or whispering in their ear.
Lots of stuff comes & goes in the church, i.e., schooling.
Put your kids in your denominational $chool.
No, send your kids into the public system as ambassadors for Christ.
No, homeschool your kids to protect them from the evil public school world.
IMHO, best to read the kid, read the situation (the community, what’s available), look at finances & home life, then make the decision that best fits the kid for THEIR best outcome, their best future. May change year-to-year, too. Keep the pastor out of that decision. Do what is best for your own children.
That’s just one example. Lots of stuff comes & goes in the church. Most stuff has to do with money & numbers (which is also $$$-driven).
Did the Calvin renaissance bring in money to the propagators? (sell books, conferences, new media – DVD’s, etc.) The new, new $hiny thing. Does the renaissance offer power & influence to promoters? Just asking.
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And on that text taken out of context, we agree!
Happy New Year, Lowlandseer!
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After having been somewhat in both worlds, I believe the vast majority of Calvinists truly believe Calvinism is true, and to deny it is to deny the true gospel. For me, it was like looking at an optical illusion and only being able to see it one way, until I saw it the other way and could no longer not see it both ways. While I can no longer believe in Calvinist expressions of Christiankty, I very seriously doubt that acceptance or rejection of Calvinism directly impacts one’s salvation, unless it causes a person to reject God altogether. But even that might not even be enough to lose salvation. It all depends on how generous God is.
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Max, Organized Calvinism who’s ends are Tyranny and massive corruption of the holy scriptures have infiltrated the SBC, and no good will come of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAx9h_R23PQ
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He’s probably much more generous than we imagine or give him credit for.
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How did you conclude (other than by snarky innuendo) that Max doesn’t have good-will to all men?
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I agree, He (Almighty God) is wayyyyyy bigger than we are.
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By the Old Gods and the New, wasn’t the New God supposed to be better than the Old Gods?
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Sounds like a “ME, NOT THEE!” situation.