Hanging Sand Dunes within Coprates Chasma on Mars-JPL
“Never attribute to malevolence that which can best be explained by incompetence.”–Greenfield’s First Law of Political Analysis.” ―
The first video will come on automatically so you may want to pause it to read the post.
If the reader is an ardent Ken Ham/Answers in Genesis fan, it might be wise to skip this post. I am a long-time admirer of Francis Collins, who is (as am I) a theistic evolutionist, the founder of Biologos, led the Human Genome Project, is the Director of the NIH, a faithful Christian, and author of a fantastic book, The Language of God. He’s smarter than most of us. Ken Ham has made the disdain of Collins one of his lifelong ambitions. If discussions on this post turn to the *proof for a young earth,* I will delete comments.
The purpose of this post is to discuss the apparent penchant for the average evangelical to accept conspiracy theories. Most recently this has been exemplified by the ‘Anti-Vaxxers.* Sometimes, I become apoplectic when reading Facebook posts of Christians who are willing to believe just about anything without checking it out which is so easy to do these days. They have developed the decidedly unchristian tendency to spread falsities because it backs up their own biases.
Why one cannot reason with a conspiracy theorist
Here is a great video from Wired that shows why one cannot argue with conspiracy theorists. This is a 5-minute video that is well worth your time. In fact, if you only have 5 minutes, watch this instead of reading the post. “Why You Can Never Argue with Conspiracy Theorists” (Sit through the brief ad.)
Religion News Service posted Why American evangelicals are so tempted by the easy assurance of conspiracy theories by DL Mayfield.
Looking back, I realize I was exposed to a lot of conspiratorial thinking in my white evangelical world, even if we didn’t call it that. Climate change — a hoax perpetrated by liberals hell-bent on curbing economic progress. Vaccines — not to be trusted. However, the end of the world and the return of Jesus would be ushered in by a one-world government after Democrats elected the antichrist as president.
…Psychologically, these stories make sense. Our brains are wired to be on the lookout for danger, seek out simple solutions and minimize complexity. It’s easier for some of us to believe COVID-19 is manmade
…Novels such as Frank Peretti’s “This Present Darkness” pitted a small group of God-fearing folk at war with demon-possessed academics and newspaper editors, police chiefs and executives running multinational corporations.
…In a recent podcast series for the CBC, journalist Lisa Bryn Rundle explores the Satanic Panic of the 1980s and ’90s, showing how mass hysteria contributed to the belief that satanic cults were preying on children throughout North America. A few decades removed, it is hard to believe that people were jailed for allegedly horrific acts with zero evidence.
…Children were being abused, of course, just not in the ways the media was reporting. We preferred a conspiracy theory to the complicated, and sadder, reality.
… we more often hear of “stranger danger” when in reality, 93% of sexual abuse against children happens with someone the child is related to or who is a trusted family friend. This is how conspiracy theories do their damage, by pulling us away from the real problem and the more complex but lasting solutions.
…For example, if white, highly educated middle class women lead the charge on resisting vaccines for COVID-19 (statistically they are the most likely demographic to be anti mandatory vaccines), then those with real health risks and an inability to be vaccinated will be put most at risk for contracting the deadly disease.
Years ago, I heard a pastor say that he met a woman in the 1980s who claimed she had seen babies being sacrificed in a Satanic cult. I asked him if he had asked her to call the. police. Better yet, did he think about calling the police? Of course, no one called the police. Deep down inside, both the woman and the pastor knew that the story was highly unlikely. Many churches were more likely to believe the *Satanic* explanation as opposed to looking carefully within their own churches to see pastors and families who were abusing their children. This is a lesson that the SBC should have learned.
This leads us to the COVID vaccine.
NBC posted NIH director asks Americans to leave ‘conspiracy theories’ behind on vaccines and ‘look at the facts
In an interview on “Meet the Press,” Collins said that mistrust of vaccines continues to be a source of great concern to public health officials, insisting that anyone who wants to “look at the facts” surrounding the vaccine’s development, testing and safety record should “be very reassured.”
…“This is a very powerful outcome of this incredibly intense, yearlong experience, to develop this. I think all reasonable people — if they had the chance to put the noise aside and disregard all those terrible conspiracy theories — would look at this and say: I want this for my family, I want it for myself. People are dying right now; how could you possibly say let’s wait and see if that might mean some terrible tragedy is going to befall.”
…“There have been few if any vaccines that have ever been subjected to this level of scrutiny. If you want to look at the facts, I think you should be very reassured,” Collins said.
He reiterated his position in this video: ‘Hit the reset button’ on vaccine skepticism.”
My entire family will get the vaccine, including my 92-year-old mother, whenever it is offered. I’m not a conspiracy theorist. However, Todd and I still believe in UFOs. 😁
1
I will add that several of my past graduate students are involved in the production of the vaccines, and I have personal/professional friend that suggested Pfizer pursue the mRNA vaccine technology BEFORE COVID was known…
but then as I have said before, I would be classified by the “antivaxxers” as being part of the “deep state cabal”…
There are always “risks” with just about any medical technology; however mankind is much better than we use to be in understanding and predicting risks….. I could go on and on, but, bottom line, BRING on the vaccine!
I’m a Pfizer guinea pig; Had the first shot 3 months ago, the booster shot 2 months ago. Everybody’s experience is different. I’m in my early 70’s. The afternoon and following day of the first shot, I didn’t feel great but I didn’t feel terrible either. Since I was in the test protocol, I had no idea whether or not I had gotten the vaccine or the placebo. So my experiences after the first shot – meh.
HOWEVER, 1 month later after the booster at noon, by the time I went to bed I was very achy and popping tylenol. The next days I was just totally exhausted/fatigued and not hungry [ but not nauseated either]. When I awoke the third day, I was good to go.
I certainly am opposed to forced vaccinations. I’m hopeful that enough people will get the vaccination that by the end of March with the coming of Spring, the pandemic will be behind us and herd immunity will have been basically achieved.
If the New Calvinists want us to stop our conspiracy theories about their stealth and deception to takeover American churches, they need to stop giving us so much evidence.
I will get the vaccine as soon as it is available to 67 year olds.
Dee,
What’s with the Toyota ad I just watched on this page?
Oh, a YouTube video. Never mind
I wish there could be distinctions drawn between “anti-vaxxers” who don’t think anyone should ever get any vaccine ever and people who are uncomfortable with the one-size-fits-all “everybody should get all vaccines“ approach. I think there is a middle ground. I don’t vaccinate my kids because I’m scared of possible adverse effects and the fact that there is no legal recourse for us if my innocent children were to suffer those effects. But I don’t believe it’s my place to tell anybody else what to do with their or their kids’ bodies. I have friends who fully vaccinate their kids and we respect each other’s choices.
I just finished reading “The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks.” It was very interesting to
see how in the mid 1900s medical consent wasn’t even a concept- and especially not for minorities/poor people. Have you heard about the Tuskegee experiments? From 1932 to 1972 Scientists and doctors deliberately infected black men with syphilis and watched them die to study the disease. The men were deceived about the nature of the study and did not give consent to what was done to them. I think science has done truly incredible things for human life, but unfortunately there is a shadow side where some scientists and doctors cavalierly disregarded human life in the name of progress. It is not surprising to me then that people- especially people who are of lower socioeconomic status or less education- are suspicious of elite scientists who say that everybody should just trust them and take their word that everything is fine. After all, those are the groups of people who have been taken advantage of over and over in the past.
There is some evidence that autism is associated with tylenol. See for example: https://hub.jhu.edu/2019/11/05/acetaminophen-pregnancy-autism-adhd/
There is NO evidence that it is caused by vaccines.
The Toyota ad is annoying to see every time I page up. Illuminati, I guess
You Tube has turned into an ad quagmire.
It’s the American way.
So after reading the Religion News Service article and the one it referenced by Joshua Pease, I’m realizing it’s doubly impossible to talk about conspiracy theories with many in the evangelical church because you’ll have to delve into the realm of psychology. And that’s going to, unfortunately, make one suspect even more.
Wild Honey,
Evangelicals don’t believe Scripture has meaning. They never paraphrase their slogans.
“the apparent penchant for the average evangelical to accept conspiracy theories. Most recently this has been exemplified by the ‘Anti-Vaxxers’.*”
D’yah think? (meaning … the penchant is rampant).
Meredithwiggle,
If you wanted to burn all the dry grass in your yard and said “my yard, my choice” you would be also greatly putting your neighbors at risk. The fire, like viruses will not be contained by your property line. Not vaccinating your children puts others at risk. How about considering the health of your community as well? Or is it all about you?
Loren Haas,
No, it’s about my kids. My sensitive 5-year-old and my spunky 3-year-old. I adore them. I know that most parents adore their kids. Most parents would do anything to keep their kids from getting hurt. I’m no different. I’m terrified of my kids being permanently injured by vaccines. If vaccines were guaranteed safe then I’d be happy to vaccinate. But they aren’t. My own nephew had an adverse reaction and now he has health issues. And there are so many families with vaccine-injured children who just get ignored in the debate. I’m not saying my kids matter more than other people’s kids. But they don’t matter less either. As a mother I just can’t bring myself to risk it. And I know that people think that makes me a monster. But I love my kids so dearly. I know my friends love their kids. I think most parents are trying to do the best they can with where they are at. Parenting in the 21st century is so damn hard. I wish we could give each other more grace.
Meredithwiggle,
If everyone chooses your “middle ground” then the very real threat of these diseases will continue. I empathize with your feelings but strongly disagree with the notion that there is some sort of reasonable compromise when it comes to public health around these diseases and vaccines.
Loren Haas,
No, it’s about my kids. My sensitive 5-year-old and my spunky 3-year-old. I adore them. I think most parents adore their kids and would do anything to keep them from getting hurt. I’m no different. I’m terrified of them having an adverse reaction to a vaccine and ending up with permanent harm because of it. If vaccines were guaranteed safe then I’d be happy to vaccinate them. But they aren’t. There are so many vaccine-injured kids whose stories just get lost or ignored in these kinds of debates. My own nephew had an adverse reaction and now he has health issues. Those kids matter. The immune-compromised kids matter. My kids matter. All the kids matter.
I wish we could have a conversation in which all the kids matter. I wish there could be more conversations about making vaccines safer, doing more testing to figure out why some people have bad reactions, why others don’t. I wish we could have more conversations about liability and who ends up paying the price when a vaccination goes wrong. I wish we could have more conversations about how our bodies are all different and there’s no one-size-fits-all approach to health. Most of all I wish there could be more grace on all sides of the debate- grace especially for parents like me, like my friends who vaccinate, all of us who love their kids, who are worried about their well-being, who are doing the best we can with what we’ve got and where we are at. I have seen so much nastiness on both sides of the vaccine debate and it breaks my heart.
Here is Russell Moore (yes, that one) interviewing Dr. Francis Collins:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Er7XjryDHkg
The way you ended your post really stings. I’m a mother of two small kids, and I have twin daughters with Jesus. This means that for the past 6 years I’ve been pregnant, postpartum, breastfeeding, changing diapers, getting up in the middle of the night for nursing, sickness, night terrors, or just because one of my kids had a bad dream. Being the primary caregiver of a small child is a relentless exercise in centering that child’s needs above your own, 24/7. I also have a hormonal related mental health issue that causes me to fight dark depression and suicidal ideations every month. Now that my kids are a little older I’m starting to see the light at the end of a very long, exhausting, and often very dark tunnel. I love my kids so very much and I have stayed at home with them to nurture them because I truly believe that’s what they have needed most from me, not because it’s been easy or fun for me.
But of course, it’s all just “about me.” Don’t you see how easy it is to hurt people with dismissive language like that? To label them as “anti-vaxxer” or “bad mom” or “selfish” when you know nothing of their story, who they are and why they have the views they do? Don’t you see that that only serves to alienate people further?
An MD has an article on Vox about 9 things that could that could go wrong with the vaccine – most of which dealt with roadblocks not resulting from the actual vaccine itself.
The last item was very interesting in the context of conspiracy theories as they relate to anecdote (which, in my perception, is the main fuel of anti-vaccine and other health related conspiracy theories):
“I remember a story Paul Offit, a vaccine expert at the University of Pennsylvania and member of the FDA vaccine advisory committee, told me once when I was in residency. He was about to vaccinate a child with the MMR vaccine. Five minutes before he gave the vaccine, the child had the first seizure of his life. Can you imagine what would have happened if that seizure occurred five minutes after he gave the vaccine?
We’re going to vaccinate hundreds of millions of people. Someone is going to have a seizure after they get the vaccine. Someone is going to have a heart attack. Someone will get into a car accident, and someone will die by suicide. These stories will burn through social media like wildfire. And remember that anecdote and evidence are not the same thing.”
If you are interested you can read the whole article here:
https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/22169428/fda-approval-covid-19-vaccine-side-effects-two-doses
Meredithwiggle,
Meredith, even though I posted comments regarding anti-vaccine believers, they were not directed at you.
I thought the the “all about you” comment by someone else was incredibly rude and exemplifies so much of what is wrong with so much of the (non)-civil discourse these days.
Afterburne,
Thank you, Afterburne. I’m just a tired mom trying to do what’s best for my kids in world where the parenting standards are impossibly high and tons of moms like me end up feeling like a failure every single day because we end up letting our toddlers eat frozen chicken nuggets 5 times a week (instead of all organic home-cooked meals) or because we let our kindergartners watch too much tv because it’s the only time we get a break.
The reason there is no middle ground is that for a vaccination program to effectively protect a population, participation has to be high enough for disease not to be able to find enough vulnerable people to infect to gain a foothold. I suspect you already know this, so I’m curious how that factors in to your decision. Of course it is the same with the covid vaccine. If enough people are unwilling to take it, covid will continue to tear through the population.
Your middle ground language brings to my mind the topic of abortion and how we think and talk about that (middle ground/pro-choice). Since abortion is not a communicable disease that can be vaccinated against obviously there isn’t much of a parallel but it’s interesting to consider nonetheless. I’m not making any kind of point here, just musing about language and psychology.
As I child I missed a lot of vaccinations. Back in the dark ages there was no anti-vaxxer movement to speak of but my father was a doctor and a controlling narcissist, and he wrote us kids doctor’s notes to get out of all the scheduled public school nurse visits because i his mind all medical personnel other than himself were quacks. (Most of them I’ve since gotten boosters for for travel purposes but think I might never have gotten the smallpox one.) For him this was not an issue of concern for us kids (he regularly encouraged us to go play in traffic :D) nor of consent: he was also openly racist and lamented the fact that routine sterilization without consent was no longer practiced by the seventies. ugh.
Anyway, I am THRILLED about the covid vaccine (thank you Lord!) and will be getting it as soon as I am allowed, for my own protection and others’. Though fast, the testing has been thorough and very transparent. The efficacy percentage and lack of serious side effects are impressive.
One thing that I have found useful in every aspect of the current debate is Cromwell’s Rule: “I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken.”
Useful for self-reflection – “Could I be wrong about masks, mandates, this vaccine?”
Useful for walking away from the ‘Proverbial’ fool (one who is unteachable, right in their own eyes) – “Could you be wrong?” “NO!” “Have a nice day” & walk away.
Given the closing insinuation that evidently corresponds with a potential death-risking guilt trip for Meredith and others who haven’t rejected vaccines out of hand but might think twice, let’s look at one or two things as far as “risk” and not dealing in conspiracies but in history and science.
‘AstraZeneca to be exempt from coronavirus vaccine liability claims in most countries – Reuters’
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-astrazeneca-results-vaccine-liability/astrazeneca-to-be-exempt-from-coronavirus-vaccine-liability-claims-in-most-countries-idUKKCN24V2EN
““This is a unique situation where we as a company simply cannot take the risk if in … four years the vaccine is showing side effects,” Ruud Dobber, a member of Astra’s senior executive team, told Reuters.”
Could there be any cause for concern based in recent vaccine history?
https://www.narcolepsy.org.uk/resources/pandemrix-narcolepsy
“A new narcolepsy epidemic — In 2010 there was a startling increase in narcolepsy across the UK and northern Europe. With new cases developing on a weekly basis, some doctors described it as an epidemic.
“During the Swine Flu epidemic of 2009/10 the vaccine Pandemrix was given to six million people in the UK, to high-risk groups, including children, with asthma, diabetes and heart disease. The vaccine had been approved by the European Medicines Agency for use across the EU, despite minimal clinical trials. The manufacturer, GlaxoSmithKline, was given an indemnity by the UK government. Some 850,000 vaccinations were given to children aged between 6 months and 16 years. After the pandemic, in 2010/11, a further 170,000 adults and children received the jab when seasonal flu vaccine supplies diminished.
“Pandemrix caused narcolepsy — The UK Health Protection Agency (now Public Health England) undertook a major study of 4- to 18-year-olds and found that around one in every 55,000 jabs led to narcolepsy.”
The CDC has this about it on their site:
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcolepsy-flu.html
Not so cut and dried, huh. Feel free to send those permanently affected a happy reminder card that the rush was totally worth it ‘cuz risk to the community.
Loren Haas,
Iwoots,
The whole point is that most other people are doing different from her. How dare you accuse her? I appeal to Todd and Dee to explain whether they intend bullying here.
Some people exempt themselves – for their reasons – re. masks (excluding themselves from buses, trains and most shops). And aren’t giving illnesses to others. And most unfortunately we have all the beatings, everywhere.
Some peoploe upheld the 6 ft rule after it was abolished. Some people don’t touch rails, handles or buttons except through a bag or cloth. Stop trashing people’s constructive efforts.
Dave,
It’s important to distinguish what might be evidence from what are rather wrong conclusions and to avoid bring up what may be very nearly a non-point. The measles vaccine take-up could fairly safely be considerably increased among the population in certain circumstances, which I insist on NOT going over.
Doubtful,
Using illogic in words, because there was NO question, from the previous poster, of what you term “everybody”, isn’t empathic after all. I would like to hear more from Jeffrey about MRNA. Authorities are notorious for NOT informing the public about how a thing is fairly good to start with and how it has been further improved.
I am in favour of vaccines per se; in the present case we currently appear to be at the stage of “further trials”, the authorities don’t even know what the symptoms of covid (a series of serious diseases) are, covid interacts greatly with several classes of other viral illnesses, a year ago there were already 40 separate different variants of covid 19 alone NOT counting “mutations”, antiviral drugs (medicines) which are of use in a range of chronic and acute virus cases alike have long got overly rationed for insufficient reason, in some countries there are now problems over medical records, in the UK the 6 ft rule was abolished in July, quite a lot of the wrong parts of national life are being shut down causing scepticism, the horse racing authorities who have been made in charge of the NHS held their races in the spring when they shouldn’t have, a huge amount of people have no “extended household”, there are outbreaks of beatings everywhere, people of religious faith are objectively free to decide whether to legitimately advocate on any matter (as citizens) (and I hope the TWW team will accept this), so far the deaths have totalled approximately the numbers forecast a year ago; are some people who are constructive and thoughtful being falsely accused of being so called “anti vaxxers”?
I see no mileage whatsoever in anyone claiming that their religion requires them to deny the above (and other similar points). I think our approach in this thread ought to be to criticise uncritical thinking, personality cult and coercion within religions. Please remember that commerce and administration (in the UK), sadly dislike width and depth of learning and information among the public, just as much as some churches in most countries, also sadly do. Many authorities are known to neglect people who have undertaken risks with good will. Authorities in the UK don’t make a case for anything, least of all when there is a good case.
For parents concerned about their children getting this vaccine, note that children will not be given this vaccine, ostensibly because epidemiological data indicates they are significantly less susceptible – though there are pediatric cases, the risk is not zero.
The Vox article is informative. (link in Afterburne’s comment above.)
The video at the top about D & D is worthwhile; I have been part of dungeons and dragons (they didn’t call it that) and was one of very few to walk out of it after as few as 28 (28) years so I am forewarned. I have indeed been part of it several times over (under different brand names), the other times for shorter periods.
Apparently Collins has only just started saying things about this. In my opinion the following quote (if accurate) is too weak:
“Director of the National Institutes of Health Francis Collins is urging Americans to … continue to take coronavirus mitigation measures seriously for at least a “few more months.””
Permanently I would say, though eventually less stringent in some ways than now. I have lots of trouble with videos (especially without subtitles), so am searching for his writings.
My mother emailed me yesterday and said a vaccine should be available to everyone in her building by the first week of January. She is very excited at the prospect of leaving Florida and seeing her family and friends again. It’s been almost a year.
Vaccine conspiracy theories aside, the pandemic has been rife with all sorts of conspiracy theories, such as John Macarthur claiming the virus itself was a hoax.
I know people who believe not only was the virus a hoax, but it was a hoax created to specifically persecute American Christians and cause their (and only their) economic downfall. Let’s just forget that it started on the other side of the world and traveled to almost every country. No, it’s all about the American Christians who think wearing a medical mask is persecution of their religion (which had no theology about face coverings until this year). Now there’s also theology that church can only be held indoors. Redefining words like “pandemic” is an old-school cult strategy, so that’s nothing new.
You’re right. And psychology has been made an enemy because many churches want individuals dependent on them and not able to see that they are being abused.
I don’t know if this was directed at me, but I don’t believe the virus is a hoax. My family wears masks and we obeyed the lockdown and mandates.
There are many in Christendom who think MacArthur is a hoax.
This attitude has been disturbing. American Christians don’t know what real persecution is. Ask believers in the underground church throughout the world where wearing masks ranks with torture, imprisonment and execution because of their faith. And American Christians don’t want to wear a mask when they go to the coffee shop?
(it’s torture to me to listen to Johnny Mac)
“Weeping may endure for a night, But a shout of joy comes in the morning.” (Psalm 30:5 AMP)
dontcha know, the “plandemic” and forced lockdown and mask mandates are really a satanic plot to make us obedient enough to accept the mark of the beast. No doubt someone somewhere thinks it’s contained in a nanochip in the vaccine itself. (I haven’t actually heard this but would bet money on it.)
Yes, you will soon have to rub your forehead across the checkout scanner before you can buy or sell.
https://www.bbc.com/news/52847648
It’s because it hasn’t undergone much testing in children yet – they want vaccine data, not assumptions that effectiveness and safety in adults equals the same in children. More testing will be coming, though.
Yes, unfortunately; I had a patient just last week who insisted that the government will be implanting chips “like the mark of the beast” with the COVID vaccine.
Also saw it reported coming from certain ‘pastors’.
There are people who are Anti-Vax who happily take Tylenol, feed their kids all sorts of vitamins and all sort of foods. In each of these cases, a child could die. There is no guarantee in life for anything that we do.
In fact, I’m going to post some thoughts by CS Lewis on *fear.” He addressed the atomic bomb which sparked serious fear many decades ago.
Evidence…this is what is necessary.
Ken P.,
It supposed to go into the whole thing about conspiracy theories. Let me check it out.
Ken P.,
You have to make it through the very short ad to see the conspiract=y theory video. It is excellent.
Muff Potter,
I can’t post this really good discussion without the ad.
Yep-psychology is the mark of the beast in some circles including most of the SBC seminaries.
For something more in line with what this blog usually blogs on: https://julieroys.com/taylor-professor-fired-sexual-misconduct/
The misconduct is actually child molestation allegations.
Yet, you put your kids in car to go places. I would contend that action is far more dangerous than vaccinations. Also, you are willing to subject your kids to the measles and chicken pox. Do you know the risks associated with those diseases. Maybe sterility is more palatable?
Also, did you know that some babies cannot get vaccinations because they have severe illnesses that must be treated first? What could happen if you child visits the doctor, in the early stages of measles so you don’t know he is sick. He could then spread the disease to that little baby who is also visiting the doctor. There was an excellent Law and Order SUV dealing with this scenario.
In life, our choices are choices that can impact others more vulnerable than we are.
Let me tell you about a wonderful (and now famous) Navajo woman Annie Wauneka. Many years ago, vaccines were introduced to the Navajo Tribe (I worked there for 2 years.) Something awaul happened. One child died even though it is doubtful that it was the vaccine. There was great fear in the tribe. Annie went to the doctors working on the reservation. (My husband was also a doctor at Gallup Indian Medical Center.) She asked for help in understanding why vaccines were so important. They showed her the science and the studies. She worked so hard to learn things that were difficult. She viewed bacteria under the microscope, something that astonished her.
Annie then went amongst her people encouraging vaccines be educating the people. Slowly they began to accept what she was saying. And the people began to accept the vaccines. No more little children died and, most importantly,y no children died or were permanently injured from preventable disease. She did much for her people although she never graduated from high school. She was revered by her people.
https://www.nytimes.com/1997/11/16/us/annie-d-wauneka-87-dies-navajo-medical-crusader.html
Vaccines do not cause autism-an uneducated campaign by some people who tried to link autism to vaccines. Do you know how easy it is to do that.?Little children get vaccines and then, due to their age, some will exhibit autism. It is an incorrect correlation.
Back when my daughter had her brain tumor, there was a big thing going on at the time. High power lines caused brain tumors. This was disproven. There was a cluster of brain tumors in children who lived near high power lines. However, that was just a standard deviation. I knew some parents who put their families in financial jeopardy to move far away from high power lines.
I do not believe in forcing people to take vaccines. However, I do expect the person to logically and carefully explain their reasoning-complete with scientific studies-not “they heard about one child who died.* That was the reasoning that wonderful Annie fought to overcome in the tribe. She is my hero.
Dave,
That observation was made at Johns Hopkins, a fine institution. At the end of the article, they said “more studies are needed.” This was a retrospective study which are notorious for being wrong. What they will do will be the gold standard-a double blind prospective study, possibly using placebo although there are some problems with that when studying pregnancies.
My rheumatologist, a Duke academic type, enthusiastically discussed the wonders of this new vaccine. I told him about this post. He said “They should no that the autism connection to vaccines has been conclusively debunked.”
They have done those studies. I was involved at Glaxo. It is a rigorous process. And you can bet the farm that any company who attempted to fuge their results would be able to be sued. A company who does tehh right thing and abides by the guidelines should not be sued.
For comparison,look at what has happened to the company which produced Oxycontin.
Meredithwiggle,
I don’t think it was. These discussions have been ongoing on Twitter and other social media sites.
That made me tear up. The elderly, the most vulnerable besides medial workers have been so isolated by this horrific virus. Give her hug from me when you see her.
ishy,
My daughter held a tiny baby who had COVID. Some hoax.
Laugh of the morning.
I have heard that it is a plot by *liberals* to get us to accept being controlled.
readingalong,
It’s the nanochips which are the latest *Mark of the Beast.* Cue the next Left Behind series.
I lost a friend and I know people that lost beloved family members. Some hoax indeed…
We are high risk seniors who have totally quarantined since midMarch. I am currently dealing with our state Health and Human Services Dept. with some issues. We want the vax as soon as it is available to our age range. However, because we are rural we are hearing that might not be the pfizer or moderna, but likely the astrazeneca, with less efficacy. And that we are likely to get indoor mass vax sites with long lines and long waits hoping there is vax by the time it is our turn. That sounds like risking death from coronavirus for a 60% chance you get some immunity from the jab.
We live in an area where despite mask mandates only a few people actually mask up, and conspiracy theories abound. Case in point: dh suffers from the aftereffects of polio during childhood. But he loves to hunt, and in a few weeks it will be alternative firearms season. He needs some primers for his muzzleloader. He called the only dealer we have found locally (store in Pomona MO) with primers (very expensive to order online and ship) to arrange a noncontact curbside pickup. Should have been a snap. Instead he was treated to an angry rant that they store “won’t play these political games.”
Bitter about the election, maybe? I do know the local school superintendent told me flat out “we don’t go much for math and science around here. Not part of our culture.”
So we will have to decide when time comes for the shot whether to risk breaking quarantine for the shot. Likely will for a pfizer or moderna, less likely for astrazeneca unless they switch maybe to drive by or something safer than long lines with unmasked people not social distancing like the elections were. We may have quarantine a lot longer, waiting until we can safely get the shot out of a mass vax event, even if we have to drive several hundred miles to do so.
Meredithwiggles: I respect your right not to vax. But I firmly believe you and your children should not be allowed in any public places, including medical facilities. It is your choice, yes, but you should have to pay for house calls, be banned from schools, churches, stores, movies, sports events, etc. I say that because you expect your children to skate by with no risk from vax while reaping the benefits of other’s taking the risk. Makes you nothing different than shirkers and draft dodgers.
It is true this mass vax event is going to be one giant science fair experiment in a way. So were the polio vax in the 50’s and 60’s. And yes, a RELATIVE FEW kids were sickened and died, but thousands were spared life long suffering and death.
I hope and pray it becomes mandatory to be vaccinated to fly, enroll in school, eat in restaurants, shop, go to church, anything public. Only then will we get enough vaccinated to end this torment.
JDV,
My son has narcolepsy so this is of great interest and concern to me personally. In the literature, there is a link to mononucleosis which he had. However, the link itself is not proof. It’s a theory.
Look at the study you quoted. Once again, it is a retrospective study. Such a study merely points a finger. It is not conclusive proof. The only way this can be proven is to do a double blind prospective study, placebo controlled if possible.
It is a curious thing. The virus itself is not known to cause narcolepsy…or does it? I would like to see a larger study looking at the rates of narcolepsy in the general populations of those who experienced the flu, divided out by age.
Again, I think it is more dangerous to put kids in a car than get a vaccine.There needs to be a cautious approach to those claiming “I got a vaccine and now I have x disease.” A disease can arise that has nothing to do with the vaccine.
Also, all drug companies are required to continue to gather data after a drug is released. I knew people who manned the reporting centers, recording the adverse events.
And the abused might just find, if they go to a certified therapist or psychologist, that the church leaders are using that very “psychology” against their own members to keep them in line.
For those wondering, the vaccine / Autism “link” was a hoax created by a doctor in England in the late 1990’s. Why would someone do this? Money of course. His plan was to capitalize on selling tests to detect the “condition” created by vaccines that he said led to Autism – all based on the fear created by his “study”. The study was removed by the publisher and the conman had his ability to practice medicine in the UK stripped from him, but the damage was already done.
How many deaths have been caused by people not vaccinating their kids (their kids dying or kids who can’t have a vaccine due to medical conditions dying)?
How much grief has there been from parents and family who have lost children due to this?
How much distress has there been to parents with sick kids?
How much distress has there been to parents scared of getting their kids vaccinated?
How much division has been created in society because of this?
How much has this contributed to distrust in solid research and science that seems to be so rampant in certain parts of society today?
I’d like to think there is a special place in hell for this “doctor” for the amount of utter destruction he has caused.
Truly evil.
I’ve heard the same but with the word “government” instead of liberal. (insert eyeroll)
Of course they don’t seem to realize that this would include both liberal and conservative governments acting as one, oh my! (eyeroll again)
Nor do many of them realize they are already being controlled by their pastors for their pastors’ benefit (usually financial, but often other benefits as well).
Meredithwiggle,
This post exemplifies a problem of the American School system. People don’t understand *risk*. The probability of having an adverse reaction caused by a vaccine is many times less than the probability of getting a terrible disease (like measles) if you don’t have the vaccine. By many times, I mean MANY MANY times.
You say “so and so had an adverse reaction” – someone you may know. What you don’t know is *if the reaction was caused by the vaccine*. The only way to tell is with large scale experiments – which have been done for the vaccines. Pfizer had 45,000 people in their trial. MMR has a much larger sample size.
If you son or daughter is not immuno-compromised, then by not giving them vaccines you are putting them in real, substantial risk. Not theoretical risk. Read up on the actual risk of getting the disease, the actual consequences of getting the disease and then compare that the the (extremely low) risk of getting any type of reaction from the vaccine. Do your research. If you can’t be bothered, then go to someone who actually has – someone who has studied statistics and can understand study results – like your doctor. Or a pharmaceutical chemist, or someone with a doctorate in math. Ask them.
Frontline medical workers have experienced way too much during this health crisis. I pray that God gives them all a break soon. Take the vaccine folks!!
Thousands of traditional (non-Calvinist) Southern Baptists can attest to the stealth and deception of the new reformers who took over the pulpit, changed congregational governance to elder-rule, excommunicated dissenters, split churches, and captured church buildings/resources for the movement. Thousands of members of SBC church plants can give testimony that they didn’t know they were Southern Baptists!
Because the evangelical church and Scientology are identical when it comes to outside psychology.
Lessons from my family:
My father’s sister died in the 1918 flu pandemic. She was 3 years old. My grandparents’ grief caused extreme changes in their behavior, which continue to affect my emotions as a person, and certainly fuel my anxiety as a protective mother. That strain of flu remains active in the world. Our whole family gets the flu vaccine every year.
My cousin contracted polio in the 1950s. He spent over a year in the hospital, including time in an iron lung. Visiting hours were tightly controlled. This was a terrible time for his parents and siblings. Although he recovered fairly well, his whole body remains weak. Post-polio syndrome is a lifelong risk for that generation of patients. I remember taking the sugar cube polio vaccine at church. The happiness of the church hall that day stays with me. People were so grateful for those sugar cubes.
Yes, these new vaccines against covid-19 are new and different. My understanding is that, in general, adverse side effects from vaccination happen within minutes or weeks, not years or decades. By the time my family is eligible, there should be a vast amount of data.
Every day I check medical school websites as well as public health information from my state health department and the federal government. I also read reputable news sites, and avoid anything about “what THEY don’t want you to know.”
The reason a Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory is impossible to shake is that a Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory is a completely-closed airtight system that expands to fill all available space.
* All evidence against The Conspiracy is Fake News/Dezinformatzia planted by The Conspiracy.
* Lack of evidence for The Conspiracy is PROOF The Conspiracy is so Vast and Powerful they can Silence anyone and anything (except for the Heroic Lone Ranger who KNOWS What’s REALLY Going On).
* Anyone and everyone who says “There is No Conspiracy” has PROVEN themselves to be part of The Conspiracy.
* Anyone who doubts the existence of The Conspiracy is part of The Conspiracy (or at least a deluded sheeple being herded into the Conspiracy’s abattoir).
Result? Impossible to shake. And grows to envelop anything and everything.
The Dwarfs are for The Dwarfs, and Won’t Be Taken In.
You couldn’t even if you wanted to.
The ad industry has gotta’ be in the multi-billion dollar a year stratosphere.
It’s as American as Sunday night NFL football.
Preliminary results on Oxford/Atrazenica is that it is 60-90% effective, with some anomaly that a half-dose in the first shot leads to higher effectiveness with the second. It also has two advantages in that is costs less than half that of the Pfizer or Moderna and stores at ordinary refrigerator temperatures.
And if it follows the results of the other two vaccines, even when a vaccinated person DOES contract COVID, the case is NOT severe (i.e. not becoming serious enough to require hospitalization).
I’m also wondering about the Johnson & Johnson vaccine (still in Stage 3 trials), which only requires ONE shot instead of two 3-4 weeks apart. Two shots a month apart with three different vaccines (which cannot be mixed) is just asking for trouble.
i.e. The Gospel According to Coast to Coast AM open phone lines.
Good advice! Unfortunately, there are church leaders among those concocting “what THEY don’t want you to know.” They need to be preaching what GOD wants you to know, instead … His Word has comforted many during this time of uncertainty.”
I’ve read that a plausible explanation for the anomaly is that the same vector was used in both first and second dose, and that reactivity to the vector, developed in response to the first injection, could impair the efficacy of the 2nd. Weakening the strength of the first shot could reduce the strength of the undesirable defense reaction to the 2nd.
It’s been suggested that this problem could also be resolved by using a different vector to deliver the immunogenic payloads for the first and 2nd doses. I’ve read that AZ/Oxford are going to try this, using a primate virus vector employed in the Russian vaccine.
Your comments about risk are spot on. Our lizard brains have a difficult time correctly parsing risk. See this link for a long 2 part read:
https://www.schneier.com/essays/archives/2008/01/the_psychology_of_se.html
If only it was as simple as going to a knowledgeable person. My Sister is a right wing, waaay out there conspiracy nut. Not microchip level, (that I know of) but close.
The things she has “learned” about vaccines have been “confirmed” by a Pharmacist friend of hers. Unfortunately, there are a few actual doctors living in the world of unreality.
Sigh.
Because they’re BOTH part of The Vast Conspiracy of Satanist Pedophile Baby-Killers.
To the point that Anti-Vaxx (like Anti-Mask) has become the latest Litmus Test of your Salvation.
Adding to the uncertainty that many people may feel about receiving the mRNA vaccines is that our understanding of the long-term risks of the disease we want to avoid is still pretty incomplete.
If one regards “mortality” as the only end-point of CV-19 that one is concerned to avoid, one might feel a degree of anxiety about accepting treatment with a “new (in humans) technology” vaccine. If one reckons that one’s risk of actually contracting the virus is low (perhaps one contemplates social distancing for multiple years until more is known about both the disease and the preventive therapies), then one’s relative risk calculation will be changed, since one is comparing what might be considered a “low risk of exposure” to the virus to a 100% risk of exposure to the treatment if one does receive it.
I’m seeing increasing reports of long-term side effects in survivors of CV in terms of vascular and organ damage. Some of this damage appears to be a consequence of the body over-reacting in its immune response. So the disease the virus produces is more dangerous than one would reckon if one focuses solely on mortality as the end-point to be avoided. That would argue in favor of receiving a therapy that would reduce the risk of development of disease symptoms, as the Pfizer vaccine does.
A residual concern for me is the possibility that the immune response to the preventive therapy might also have corresponding long-term auto-immune consequences. Severe allergy was one of the “do not participate in this trial” exclusions for participation in the Pfizer vaccine trials. We don’t have any safety information about the safety of the vaccine in patients with severe allergies. It would be important to know what other groups may have been excluded as study participants, which I do not at the moment.
A final concern, that was (per reports I have read) raised in the FDA review, is whether the vaccine produces “sterilizing immunity” (recipients cannot become infected at all in the upper respiratory tract and become asymptomatic spreaders) or merely “protective immunity” (recipients will not develop severe disease, which generally involves spread to the lower RT).
This is unknown at present (to have done this during the trials thus far would have required more intrusive monitoring of the study participants — more frequent testing to determine whether asymptomatic infection was taking place). I have the impression that this was feared to reduce study participation and so was not implemented in the trials to date) but is the subject of future study by the vaccine maker.
I’m going to try to have as lengthy a conversation as possible, about my own risk profile, with my physician as I contemplate receiving this therapy.
Though using a half-dose for the first shot would enable them to stretch the numbers vaccinated by 33% and reduce costs per patient by 25%.
Oxford/Atrazenica’s cost per dose and storage temperature give it an advantage for global distribution to Third World countries without the money or medical infrastructure required for Pfizer or Moderna. Pfizer requires cryogenic supercoolers and Moderna requires freezers; Oxford stores at refrigerator temperatures (I think you could store/transport it on ice in a foam cooler, which would be a real advantage in the field).
Lets just say a couple years ago Greater Los Angeles had its first whooping cough outbreak in a century – in an Upscale suburb of the San Fernando Valley. A map of childhood vaccination rates from that period showed the highest (near 100%) in the Barrios and other immigrant-heavy poor areas and the lowest in the upscale tony suburbs. The richer the suburb, the lower the rate.
i.e. “NO I WON’T!!! AND YOU!! CAN’T!! MAKE!! ME!!! FREEDOM!!!!!“
Hopefully, these folks will come to their spiritual senses and realize that neither are Anti-Christ … before they contract COVID!
JUST LIKE SCIENTOLOGY!
I just really don’t get it… People accept the ‘restrictions’ of wearing clothes in public, driving on 1 side of the road, and many others. Why do masks have to be any different??
Naked bodies in public places are not hoaxes – you can see them … head-on collisions are not hoaxes – you can see them … the unseen China virus is a hoax, you know (John MacArthur said so!)
It is certainly true that the autism vaccine link has been conclusively debunked. That is why I mention that there might be a tylenol – autism link (there are other studies as well, by the way.) If you are worried about the increase in autism spectrum disorder (which appears to be real), there *is* a potential explanation that does not rely on vaccination. THERE IS NO LINK BETWEEN AUTISM AND VACCINATION.
My daughter says they are seeing children with these after effects of having COVID-especially in the cardiovascular department.
I occasionally pick up/drop off family members at the airport after midnight or before 5 AM. I have a good laugh listening to Coast to Coast during that time. It is the one benefit of travelling in off hours.
This is exactly why some diseases are re-emerging. Unvaccinated individuals tend to cluster in the same communities and schools. In the absence of a protective herd immunity, they are vulnerable to disease outbreaks. This is simple science in motion … anti-vaxx = pro-disease.
Hi Seneca/Jimmy
Did you just show up because you were thrown off Internet Monk? I’m still trying to decide what to do about you. Unlike before, you now have a forum of your own which evokes Wartburg in the title. I no longer feel I have to put up with you since I know you have your own media concern.
I think you come here because people actually read the posts and comment. You have a tendency to cause a commotion whenever you comment and I frankly have little energy for that these days..
You are in permanent moderation. Just one nasty comment and you will be banned. permanently-no hope for parole.
Anyone got any Biden-Bye Vaccine?
John MacArthur has not been very Christlike throughout all this.
ishy,
10 weeks ago my 97 year old dad had a fall at home and cut his head. The paramedics called me as they were taking him to hospital – I was on my way to see him at the time – and said that, because of Covid restrictions, I wouldn’t be allowed in to the hospital. They suggested I wait for him at his house because they fully expected him to be discharged after a couple of hours as the injury was superficial. So I did. The hospital contacted me later that day and said he was being admitted for observation.Two days after that they moved him to a Physiotherapy Centre. Two weeks after that there was a Covid outbreak there. I was told that he was okay because he was in a private room. A few days later they told me he had tested positive for Covid and a week later he died. His funeral was a strange affair – only our two families allowed in church while the coffin remained outside in the hearse. The burial was no better – quick and impersonal x and then a cage erected over the flowers to prevent any possible contamination of the mourners.
Covid is real and dangerous and I am angry and distraught that we never got to say goodbye to him – a strong, healthy man who died in a place he should never have been in from a disease that he should never have caught.
Lowlandseer,
I am so very sorry for your father’s death, and for everything your family and friends have endured.
I am so sorry, Lowlandseer. It’s awful what this virus has done to our world and the people in it. I don’t think things will ever be the same.
I have blocked close friends over these stupid conspiracy theories. I am so angry they are listening to people like John Macarthur and not health officials. I am angry that people I once thought reasonable think it’s funny to have parties and go around without masks because they think they are invincible.
I will be getting a vaccine as soon as they tell me I can, because I don’t want it to spread any further if I can do something about it.
ishy,
I agree…
so much for loving your neighbor as yourself, and “no greater love than to lay down your life for someone”….
Now, it is “you have no right to tell me to where a mask”, and its not a “pandemic”, etc, etc…
I think it would be important to continue to observe the public health advisories even after receiving a CV vaccine. There is strong evidence from the current trials data that vaccines such as Pfizer’s reduce the risk of symptomatic infection. Reduction of asymptomatic infection (for example in the upper respiratory tract) was not tested in the study protocol, though it will be in future larger study.
Until we know more, it would be best to assume only that the vaccine protects from symptomatic infection (so it makes you less likely to suffer an adverse disease outcome if you are exposed to the virus). It may also confer sterilizing immunity (which would protect everyone else, too) but at the moment that is not known. In the interest of avoiding the possibility of low-grade upper RT infection and asymptomatic spread by vaccinated people, we should all continue to observe the public health advisories even after being vaccinated.
Later in 2021 we will hopefully know enough to determine if it is safe, from a public health perspective, for vaccinated individuals to resume “life as normal.”
In addition to protection against COVID, health advisories to wear a mask, social distance and sanitize have evidently taken a big bite out of the regular flu. CDC is reporting an unusually low rate of influenza cases for the 2020-21 flu season thus far. My wife and I have already decided to continue with these health practices during all future cold/flu seasons. Makes too much sense.
Lowlandseer,
I am so sorry to learn this about your father, Lowlandseer. I know it’s been tough for you and your family. May God deliver us all soon from this plague and from those who consider it a hoax. May He give peace to those affected by it, who have been touched by a very real and dangerous disease.
My wife, while wearing her mask, was picking up an item at a store deli, when a maskless lady brushed against her and intentionally coughed in her face. Stupidity is at an all-time high in America; COVID has revealed the depth of this ignorance. Even in church, the love of many has grown cold.
that’s really encouraging and is a strong affirmation of the wisdom of these protective measures. Back in the late Winter/early Spring, when “social distancing” was first being advocated (the “flatten the curve” meme), I read that exactly this phenomenon — reduction of the severity of the seasonal ‘flu epidemic — was observed in Hong Kong after the SARS epidemic was brought under control. The measures adopted in Hong Kong, which included masking, entered widespread practice there and have had beneficial effects on the seasonal ‘flu up to the present.
It’s tragic that US had a shortage of PPE back in the late Winter/early Spring, so that the public health authorities were reluctant to advise wide-spread mask wearing (fearing that this would cause a ‘run’ on a scarce resource, with dire implications for health-care providers who were already experiencing shortages of these items). I hope that we are better prepared for the next pandemic; I reckon that I am likely to see at least one more before my span ‘under the sun’ draws to its close.
That was a profoundly hostile act, calculated — I suppose — to stimulate fear in your wife.
I experienced something similar in the Spring; biking while masked to do an errand, a maskless pedestrian spat at me. I was a bit shaken up — somewhat by the health risk, which was low due to the “geometry” of the attack, more so by the implied hatred that the act exhibited.
It seems that we are “biting and devouring one another”
Jesus commanded to love (and do good to and pray for) even enemies. It appears that many of us reflexively hate strangers whom we guess may not be in our “tribe”.
Ichabod
On the upside, some area news outlets are reporting we rural folks will more likely get moderna. Easier to ship and stores longer at normal refrig temps when thawed. Some are saying they plan drive through shots close enough for us to reach them IF they will accept us when that time comes. And if not, some docs are saying if we wear true respirators (I still have 1 n95 shop respirator that fits, hubby an n100 industrial style looks like scuba gear) and shop goggles over our glasses we reduce risk considerably if the vax sites are indoors.
Son in law is currently in yet another quarantine. He is a paramedic, week ago got a significant on the job exposure. We can hardly wait for him to get the jab!! DD is a school teacher still on hybrid mode. Grandkid decided to go fully remote as they are a hotspot also.
Ya’ll pray!
I did watch the video after the commercial. I was surprised to see the ad since you never put ads on your blog, but that’s okay. Just remember to give me a cut of the profits you make from posting the video.
Friend,
Good comment.
Lowlandseer,
I am so, so sorry for your loss. I stopped and prayed for you all. It must have been awful to be apart from him as he went through his last days. This is a terrible disease and those who downplay it are doing so at their own risk. Even worse, they are causing more pain for those who have suffered loss as you did.
You summed it up perfectly. I wish I had said it like you.
Could you keep us posted if you hear about dates?
Ken P.,
I know you are joking however, from time to time I like to remind people of how TWW works. I do not take intentional ads on my site. I do not take Amazon kickbacks for recommending a book.Finacnailly, my husband’s job pays for my need for technical support, etc. I was asked to meet with some people in Lynchburg. I drove there on my own dime. In other words, this blog is a financial net loss for us. I have been offered donations which I have refused. If anyone would ever like to donate money, please do so to the Salvation Army’s Project Fight in North Carolina. Their needs are great.
Also, I do this blog out of love for those who have been hurt by the church. Please know there is no financial motivation to do so. I am grateful that anyone would be interested in what I have to say.
dee,
Well spoken dee, I have known for years that you’re the real deal, the real McCoy.
So many thoughtful (or thought-filled, which is not necessarily the same thing as thoughtful) comments and / or replies to Dee’s excellent opening post.
And so many comments and / or replies bouncing around and echoing in the “vaults” of my mind….
I remain amazed at how, building on the shoulders of scientists (not “scientists”), the world has come together….sharing knowledge….sharing information….sharing data….
Working together as fast as is humanly possible to develop safe and effective vaccines that eradicate and / or lessen the incidences of COVID-19.
And yes, I intend to get the vaccine….
(my Asperger’s (which is now considered part of the Autism Spectrum in some parts of the world) is genetic).
YES.
Lowlandseer,
So sorry for your father’s passing, and the manner in which it happened. How awful.
dee,
Dee, thank you and everyone for your prayers. I do appreciate them. I just felt that I had to tell someone – anyone – how I am feeling and this is a safe place to do it. And for that reason I appreciate more than ever how valuable and necessary TWW is for those who have suffered abuse and need to feel safe when they tell their story
And in other news, another perverted and hypocritical “pastor” (child porn charges):
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/florida-pastor-who-opposed-alcohol-sales-on-sundays-caught-with-child-porn-state-authorities/ar-BB1bXnn0?ocid=spartan-dhp-feeds
Some of the many reasons I read and admire you and some other bloggers….
I’ve also worn those occasionally in tandem with a mask. I don’t believe enough has been said about the potential of COVID infection through the eyes. As cold/flu season advances – and the public coughing starts – I will don my goggles and mask as I venture out.
Lowlandseer,
I do not want to degenerate into which “abuse is worse”, but I just can not get my mind around people that call themselves “Christians”, and downgrade/ deny this “pandemic”… If over 300,000 deaths, and body count increasing is not a Pandemic, I want these “preachers” to define it…
I am NOT saying we should live “ in fear”, but not taking it seriously is an insult to all the people that have gotten sick/died of this. Further, while I am 60, I find it minorly “insulting” to say it only effects the “old” or people with other “issues”… so, I guess we are not as important as the young?
Our area is about as rural as it gets … flyover country occupied by folks referred to in the political realm as “deplorables.” Thus, I suppose we will see Moderna’s vaccine here – not because we are red state outcasts, but deemed rural in the vaccine distribution scheme. We will gladly get in line with other God-fearing deplorables to get our shot!
I am the parent of a child who was in cancer treatment for two years . She is NED currently.
When parents chose not to vaccinate , it is not a “you do you and I’ll do me situation.” There are people in our world who are vulnerable through no fault or choice of their own. The unvaccinated put at risk these people. We rely on herd immunity to protect them. I’m going to be blunt and if people get sensitive because I suggest they are potentially hurting people, I’m sorry that the truth of the real world for some makes you feel bad. You should hear this angle from people who truly understand suffering and have lived their worst nightmare.
My child was vaccinated but two stem cell transplants did away with all that and she later had to be revaccinated. When I consider how people will not vaccinate their kids because of this very very slight chance of “something” and fear of a vague thing they can’t even name, I wish I could take them on a pediatric oncology floor.
What about the fear of parents facing a very real sorrowful thing? A child who is neutropenic from chemo can die from chickenpox if exposed . Cancer parents shield their kids from the world when it is most dangerous. But we still can’t avoid the world completely . What is sad is that cancer parents have to be even more careful about allowing their kids some normal in their life due to more and more unvaccinated people. Your choice is why cancer kids have to be more concerned about seeing a movie or going to the mall (pre covid ) on a “good day” when they aren’t throwing up or in the hospital.
As a parent of a kid who had a toxic amount of chemicals put in her to save her life, I find the fear over the unknown, vague thing incomprehensible. Be responsible. Protect cancer patients . Protect the elderly. A cancer child is just as precious but facing a very real thing and a very real risk from vaccine preventable disease.
Saying that something is all about you isn’t judgment on how selfless you are to your friends, family and neighbors You can be Mother Teresa in your personal life and still not think beyond that circle of yours.
Not great, not terrible, I’ve seen worse…
Take him to the infirmary, he’s delusional
We know so little about the disease’s long-term effects that it is really unwise to rely on the early assessments of the rarity of symptomatic disease among the young to justify belief that this disease is not dangerous to them, too.
I’ve read that there can be vascular changes in the young even in cases that do not produce symptoms. There could be long-term, perhaps appearing only decades later, consequences for organ function. Hopefully such problems will not emerge or will not be widespread. But we simply don’t know.
It really is very disheartening, and even more so in contemplation of the fact that skepticism that the disease is real or, if real, is a serious problem, is widespread. We are quite possibly self-inflicting major long term problems.
Samuel Conner,
Yup..l think shingles!!
Bunsen Honeydew,
I don’t want this comment to unnoticed. Could you give me permission to post this as a stand alone? dee@thewartburgwatch.com
ishy,
I really need to work hard to control my anger regarding people who take an “all about me” approach to the pandemic. Case in point: the holiday letter from a friend yesterday who went on in detail about inconvenienced she was by the pandemic: couldn’t work out at the gym, couldn’t get her hair done, couldn’t travel…that, contrasted with my friend who just lost two older (not old) brothers to COVID-19, and I want to kick my self-centered friend.
Is NED something specific to someone in cancer treatment?
(And like reading so many other TWW comments, your comment broke my heart….)
Linn,
Yup….
Please tell me that Area 51’s research and experiments on aliens and their spacecraft is not a conspiracy theory.
Personally, I believe all conspiracy theories are connected.
My daughter used to teach first grade. One year, she had one little girl who was always waving her hand during class discussions and shouting “What about me?! What about me?!” After a few days of this, my daughter took her aside and said “Honey, this class is not about you. It’s about us.” She explained that she needed to teach all the children and give each one a chance. The child understood and was patient from that point on. It’s an ugly thing when children grow to adulthood and are still shouting “What about me?!”
That would be the mother of all conspiracy theories, wouldn’t it?
🙂
Well, since you asked…
https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2020/12/08/retired-israeli-general-space-aliens-trump-not-expose-galactic-federation/
That’s exactly what they want you to think…
(My answer to your question about area 51 is in customs. Hmmmm….)
researcher,
NED stands for no evidence of disease . It is a common term with those post cancer treatment. We cannot declare her cancer free yet or in remission. That will take a few more years .
Hahaha. The grand unifying theory of conspiracies. The Holy grail of conspiracy theorists. It is utter foolishness for those who research it since people come up with a new conspiracy theory every few days. 😉
… and they are all connected (insert Twilight Zone music here)
Thank you for the explanation of NED.
And I hope your daughter reaches the point at which she can be declared cancer free or in remission. 🙂
Say hi to Richard Dreyfus while it’s there…
I’m sure we’ll be seeing her on a “COVID Karens Gone Wild” video before long.
When things first locked down last March, I figured my life would be on pause for around a year or so. Eight months in, the cabin fever is really building up.
He can take a number and stand in line with all the other Holy Pedo Pastors.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
(Edited by Dee) I was commenting on a different comment, about another Pastor getting caught with Kiddie Porn while crusading for Blue Laws on the Sabbath.
I don’t think he’s actually been thrown off, but his welcome there IS wearing pretty thin. Smug & Righetous & polishing his halo like always.
That’s actually untrue if you live in the USA. There is the colloquially named “National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program” and the “Vaccine Claims/Office of Special Masters.” I would advise you to look into those if you’re concerned. I have heard that in the past the “vaccine court” has paid out in “edge cases”; that is, where the evidence is not clear.
The facts are clear–vaccines are an unalloyed good for society as a whole. I can’t wait to get my vaccine, so I don’t have to be so concerned about going to an urgent care, like I was today, because I thought I might have a hairline fracture in my arm. (For the record, the X-rays showed no fractures but I do hurt a lot. The incident where I hurt my arm was stupid so I will not regale you with the embarrassing details.)
Neither Dee nor I intend bullying, but I don’t mind spirited debate. I realize this is an emotional topic with strong feelings on both sides of the issue. Overall I think you are doing a great job of self-policing and displaying graciousness with those who differ from your views, so I thank you.
I don’t mean to put words in Dee’s mouth, but I am certain she will express her view if she feels the need.
readingalong,
Thanks. I actually wrote a post on this which will be coming out tomorrow.
Meredithwiggle,
No, it was not directed toward you (if I direct a comment towards someone, I do like this by clicking ‘Reply’).
It was a general comment about people on both sides of the debate who are so self-righteous in their attitude of ‘I’m right’ that even attempting a discussion is a waste of time.
Michael in UK,
“The whole point is that most other people are doing different from her. How dare you accuse her? I appeal to Todd and Dee to explain whether they intend bullying here.”
————–
1. Was my comment a reply to her? Is her name anywhere in my comment? No. You read the comments in order, and ASSUMED such.
2. “How dare you accuse her?” Like you just did to me. {LOL}
3. “bullying”? Look in the mirror. Better yet, apply Cromwell’s Rule to yourself.
Can you explain what you mean by this and who you are referring to?
Lowlandseer,
I am extremely sad with you about these terrible things. I don’t see you as one of the ones that’s “getting at” other ordinary people about it.
Large numbers of public in some countries are knowledgeable about the self-management of viral illnesses and it’s the authorities that have been enforcing the dumbing down of the issues (in some cases reinforced by churches).
Meantime the triumphal churches haven’t been spreading hope among the public ever since Saint Billy Graham’s time at all. The percentage of Christians mightn’t be much fewer, but the content has vanished.
Iwoots,
Apologies for my misconstrual. As to masks there is a large body of knowledge, information and advice that is being applied well in some places.
Take a prominent individual named Macarthur for example, he may claim to speak for a smaller person but he doesn’t. Will we ever hear from a smaller person? No.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
and (largely) to inside method
Samuel Conner,
I don’t think there is such a thing as “asymptomatic”. I think the covids – which aren’t new and are known to interreact with herpetics – are like shingles (which is already strongly neurological) with heart and kidney damage thrown in. It’s not very much about coughs. People have always died in droves from, and lived with, chronic illnesses – Boris was adult enough to point this out a few months ago – and it was the churches that told us we aren’t going to. Damian Thompson is one of the illness deniers.
Lowlandseer,
I think, HUG was actually trying to answer to this post by readingalong on Tue Dec 15, 2020 at 05:34 PM:
And in other news, another perverted and hypocritical “pastor” (child porn charges):
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/florida-pastor-who-opposed-alcohol-sales-on-sundays-caught-with-child-porn-state-authorities/ar-BB1bXnn0?ocid=spartan-dhp-feeds
dee,
Thank you, Dee. It has been a tough year for elderly people, as you know from your own experience!
Possibly referring to my comment at 5:34 Tues. with link to (sigh, another) article about FL “pastor” being arrested with child porn?
The Science (pbuh) just changed its mind on what was once considered a dangerous, ineffective, and irresponsible drug to treat COVID. It is documented in AMA resolution 509.
I have noticed some funny things going on with this thread and references to earlier posts within it. His comment is not the only one that appears to reference a post different than what I suspect was intended.
dee,
Dee. Pete and Jordyn Wilson started a podcast. It’s shallow and terrible, but perhaps there’s hope that they’ll eventually divulge the sinful history of their relationship and lead broken people to the cross with their testimony. I won’t hold my breath on the latter, but I figure it would make for an interesting update article if nothing else. I’m sure they wouldn’t mind the publicity since they are both pursuing the limelight again.
Without meaning to appear contentious, I think that “distrust of science” is a much larger problem and I’m not sure what can be done about it, other than perhaps finding ways to drive the profit motive out of medical research and out of the business of scientific literature publication. Business funding of university-based research is arguably also a significant potential trouble-spot.
Google
“replication crisis” scientific research
I don’t know how this can be resolved without significant changes in the incentive structure of the science publication process — which is profoundly entangled in the incentive structure of the scientific career “process.”
I say this not as a skeptic of science. I studied at a reputable research university for a scientific career (which, in the end, I did not pursue) and have a few research publications to my name (mostly as co-author, two as first author). I have a pretty good understanding of scientific method and research rigour.
Something has gone deeply wrong.
“Houston, we have a problem.”
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Hope the pain in your arm subsides soon, Muslin. I understand your concern about dodging urgent care and ERs these days, if at all possible. I accompanied my wife for cataract surgery last week and was relieved to exit the surgical waiting room after two hours. Folks in the waiting area were wearing masks, their temperatures were checked at the door, and chairs spaced 6-feet, but there were a couple folks coughing the whole time I was there. I like wide-open spaces these days … I always have … I would much prefer to go fishing than go to urgent care 🙂
Bertrand Nash,
I just saw that a few days ago. It is terribly shallow and I put some info about it in a draft. I do think it is worthy of an update and may try to get one up in the next few weeks.
When I exposed what was going on with Pete, his separation and Jordyn, I was told that some *elders* said that I was lying. By now, I would imagine that they must know that they were the ones deceived.
Pete does not look like a happy man. He ditched his wife, married a much younger woman and appears to be flailing. I predict some hard times in the near future.
Please keep me posted if there are any further developments. I try to keep up but so much has been happening recently. I look to you all as the eyes and ears of this blgo.
This is important for people to know.
I hope your arm does better.
I’ve seen it happen before, so I think so, too. It’s not often, just very occasionally, but once in awhile the gears get crossed somehow.
I think that the “copy/paste” buffer sometimes contains text that you don’t know is there. I’ve occasionally noticed text in the “composition box” that I did not intentionally paste.
A possible safety measure is to always scroll to the top just before posting, and at least scan every line to the bottom; just to make sure that there is nothing unintended in the “Comment” box. This would have saved me embarrassment on a number of occasion.
Dee:
Would it be possible to implement a “Preview” feature within TWW comments?
This would also be really helpful in terms of proof-reading the effects of attempts to use html tags. These sometimes go wrong, with disagreeable consequences for readers and embarrassment to commenters.
Meredithwiggle,
True story: When my children were little, things were always crazy, especially since my daughter was dealing with a brain tumor at the time. They liked going to McDonalds to play. One time, it got cold and I put on a coat hadn’t worn since the previous winter. Put my hand in a pocket and took out a petrified chicken nugget.It still looked like a nugget!
Meredithwiggle,
A number of my ancestors were “pioneers” and went “West”, which was always relative to where they lived.. anyway, I guarantee their kids did not get “the best of everything”, but a good fraction of them lived long lives… and, nature is full of things that “hurt us”, not just modern made things… in fact, it could be argued that the more we “pamper” our kids, the more become “weak”, not strong…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KJ–CfHxmU
Including when the Appalachians were the Far West and Wyoming was a county in Pennsylvania?
To lighten things up a bit:
I can get testy re public health with a polio survivor/still deals with effects hubby. Apologies WHEN I offend in that area, for I surely will and really it has to happen. What is good for US ALL trumps what is good for me.
And just so ya know, I grew up near Roswell during a time sightings were still being reported. And quite near an underground nuclear testing site. We had machines testing the rads on our playground. Could not go outside for recess on high days. And was born in a town named Artesia.
DH teases I might be a little green Artesian that glows in the dark.
And have a grandson out on the west coast who swears he has heard bigfoot beating on trees.
Conspiracy theories are a dime a dozen BUT DANGEROUS WHEN FOLKS BELIEVE THEM OVER SCIENCE.
Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
McD nuggets are like spam … you can’t kill them! Long after humans have disappeared from planet earth, food additives, bad theology, and conspiracy theories will still be here.
For once I’m not reading all the comments because it is just too much. Apologize if some has already pointed this out. I did want to point out that there is a government fund for vaccine injuries for any snd every vaccine. Suggest applying if you have been injured.
Second, as a former Institutional Review Board member, lots of precautions now a days to prevent things such as Tuskegee from happening again. The cutting edge is drug testing by US firms in third world countries. I’m not sure the status on that. I know there is a lot of work being done on preventing abuses there. I don’t know how far along that effort is because I’ve never worked on a protocol covering drugs or outside of South Carolina. Some one else may know
Then we have Doug Wilson… I like this editorial… https://lmtribune.com/opinion/editorial-the-gospel-according-to-alinsky-lives-in-moscow/article_6af206f4-f2b3-56fe-9878-0026a37444a1.html
Samuel Conner,
People aren’t just distrustful of science; they are distrustful of anything and everything that doesn’t agree with their interpretation of the truth. “I don’t like COVID and the inconvenience it causes me-what other information can I find?” You can find just about anything you want online to confirm your own bias. My church thinks they know better-the elders said we are open and besides holding Sunday services, are also opting for two in-person Christmas Eve services. I love my church and I love the leadership, but I also live in a county where they have just ordered body bags and refrigeration trucks because the number of deaths has increased astronomically. But, if you follow a certain pastor at a large mega church in Southern CA YOU MUST OPEN YOUR CHURCH, no matter what science or common sense has to say about it (not to mention Romans 13).
To which the solution is “ditch her and marry an even YOUNGER woman —
denim jumper… and looooong… waaaavy… haiiiiiiiir….”
If this is SoCal, we have sixphour waits at Emergency Rooms, tent field hospitcals setting up, and a refrigerated trailer shortage.
While a lot of our population (including CELEBRITY Megapastors and their followers) go “ALL FAKE NEWS! NO I WON’T! YOU! CAN’T! MAKE! ME!”
“Science” Falsely So-Called or WORD! OF! GAWD!!!”
Christians seem to be hell-bent on getting on the WRONG side of everything.
Linn,
I don’t disagree.
I no longer fit within the “taxonomical category” of “evangelical”. Even when I was an still an insider, I was distressed by how popular certain (in my view) questionable approaches to science (natural history, specifically) were.
From the outside, I think I see some things more clearly than I could have from the inside, and one of the things that I think I see is that this movement (and certainly some of its more vocal and more extreme elements) is in danger of coming to be regarded to be a menace to public health.
That intuition grew initially in contemplation of Ev interaction with studies on climate disruption and at the time I thought that the bad reputation would take decades to stick. The pandemic has accelerated things.
—
Lately, I interpret these things to be evidence of darkened understanding that comes as people are given over to what they prefer. IOW, “wrath” as portrayed in Romans 1. So, it seems to me that many of the self-described churches are, in effect, “under wrath”, and that is also harming large numbers of other people.
Ichabod
HydroxycloroQ-Anon?
That’s the one.
So many Pedo Pastors out there someone needs to start a take-a-number system.
When your ministry can be described as “Just Like Scientolgy, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”,
that should be a Big Warning Sign.
The American Medical Association (AMA) did not adopt draft resolution 509. Here are the proceedings, see page 20:
https://www.ama-assn.org/system/files/2020-12/nov-s20-resolutions.pdf
I saw your comment earlier and made a point of asking a health care professional about it today. She knows of no new studies proving that hydroxychloroquine successfully prevents or treats covid. HCQ is a proven remedy for some conditions, and it poses risks to certain patients.
The AMA draft resolution endorsed permitting off-label use of HCQ for treating covid. This is different from stating that HCQ is proven effective against covid.
Off-label use means taking a medication for a condition for which that medication has not been rigorously proven efficacious. (Example: a glaucoma medication happens also to grow thicker eyelashes in some patients. Its off-label use is to grow hair in people who do not have glaucoma.)
This is on topic because there are two main sources about the AMA resolution: the American Medical Association (not the same as “The Science”), and a few dozen obscure sites that suggest this HCQ info was deliberately kept under wraps until after Election Day in the US. I did not find any major news organization discussing AMA resolution 509.
If I have misunderstood what you were trying to say, please respond.
Max,
Here in California they don’t use the waiting room. You wait in the car. They call your cell when patient is ready and you pull up to the side door to pick up outpatient. Very convenient and safe. We also wait in car for regular Dr. Appt. You ring when you arrive. They ring you to come into the office.
Dave A A,
No surprise there! Wilson loved himself and his own, not his neighbor.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Yes
Lowlandseer,
I was sorry to read this about your father. That’s an awful thing to go through for everyone involved. Praying for peace and comfort to you and your family.
Friend,
So, I showed my wife, a MD, a post about this “AMA resolution”. The writer of the post is a classmate of mine from my fundy HS. His post ranted about how it was all a conspiracy to silence the truth about this drug, and how many lives could have beed saved, etc… a typical rant…. i challenged him that there is no good data on the drug, that my wife large practice is against it’s use extra…. My classmates response? He block me and removed me as a friend…
we are not talking “young earth science things” we are talking about people dying, and the system conspiring to withhold alleged life saving drugs? Amazing how low we have become..
It would be interesting to dig into who lived longer in the US a century or more ago, depending on whether they grew up in the city or the country, in wealth or in poverty.
US life expectancy overall has just about doubled since the 1860s. This is one of many charts out there: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1040079/life-expectancy-united-states-all-time/
I suspect, alas, that life expectancy in the US took a significant hit this year. It was already trending down in certain groups.
Friend,
I have seen data which indicates people that lived “in the country/wilderness” lived longer, on average…. Given there were no vaccines, and people did not know of germ theory, living in a city was not fun…. diseases spread quickly…. while out in the “wilderness”, you just had keep from getting eaten by bears, etc..
That’s the basic practice here as well, except for surgeries (my wife had cataract surgery) they allow one person over 18 with a mask and no temperature to accompany the patient and wait inside to monitor progress of the surgery on a screen. They wheeled her out through the surgical center exit where I picked her up. They appear to be monitoring things well, but I get nervous these days in any indoor gatherings, even a hospital waiting room.
Too bad that members of Pete’s church didn’t realize that his ministry was also shallow and terrible, until it was too late. But that is fairly common in the Christian Industrial Complex … the pew ain’t got a clue.
There’s lots of that going around here in Idaho.
The governor won’t do anything meaningful about Covid. The health board was intimidated into inaction by gun-toting “No Masks No Vaccines!!” protestors. We now have one of the highest per-capita infection rates on God’s green earth. In my small town about half refuse to mask up unless forced. One pastor, a fan of MacArthur and conspiracy theories, got Covid and was very sick along with nearly everyone in his bible study. Another pastor has tried to do the right thing and required masks despite pressure from congregants. He also changed to 2 services despite being a small church, so folks could distance. It was to no avail, as half the mostly elderly people got sick after Thanksgiving, likely getting it from younger family members. Some are not out of the woods yet; although thankfully no one has died.
I live in a small town surrounded by ranches and gorgeous wilderness. Right now I’m much safer visiting the big city, aside from the treacherous highway getting there. In the city nearly everyone in public is masked and distanced. Here— not so much. Oddly, everyone and their uncle seems to be sick with Covid and in a sharing mood.
How people can allow themselves to be that brain-dead is beyond comprehension. And then allow gun-toting tribesmen to intimidate the sane and the rational?
How did we come to this?
What you saw was my cynicism and sarcasm over two somewhat related issues. And unfortunatly, there is apparently no way to talk about either without getting accused of something terrible by one side or ther other.
One is all the various talking heads telling us to “trust the science” when in fact there is no such thing as a singular, intelligent source that we can point to and identify as The Science (pbuh). Instead, we have various people with various levels of expertise, authority, and influence, who draw on knowledge from various disciplines such as science, math, and philosophy to make informed recommendations, hopefully with wide consensus. But to say that will get me labeled as a science denier, which I am not.
The second issue is how polarizing and toxic the HCQ topic has become. The extremes either tout it as a miracle cure-all or condemn it as the most unsafe and ineffective drug to ever have been foisted upon mankind. But it appears that the truth is in the middle. Many doctors in different countries believe there is some therapeutic benefit in certain conditions and that it can be used safely under appropriate medical supervision (my wife is a European polyglot who gathered this from European news sources). I suspect that if bad orange man had not made so many claims about HCQ it might have been included as a potential tool in the arsenal. The fact that it even made it a proposed resolution suggests that it could have at some limited viability. It’s the extreme-think about it that bothers me.
Historically cities were more deadly than the countryside until the development of modern sanitation (which dealt with many of the water borne diseases) and vaccinations. A lot of diseases require a certain density of population to keep spreading. The plus side of the city was that it provided somewhat greater opportunity to move up the social/economic scale (or down).
Muff Potter,
I ask the same question…. How did we come to this…..
Missouri is no better. Not our governor, nor our county health director believe in mask mandates. Our nearby town finally passed one anyway. But there are no teeth in it, and folks now feel honor bound to disobey it.
It has been eye opening to say the least. Just today a two page spread in the paper advertising the various church’s planned all out big services Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. I have to say holding large services in a pandemic hits me as not at all Christlike.
God help us, this nation has gone collectively insane.
If America is indeed in quasi-Roman stages of decline, those guys (armed zealots, proud boys, whomever…) are surely the Huns.
Roger Olson (he’s on TWW’s blog roll) has an excellent article on the differences between science and scientism.
Vaccine is pushed so much while ignoring other ready available known safe drug that could have help million before the vaccine is developed. Watch Dr. Kory passionate pledge to senate. He held a press conference in Houston and I have not come across major media outlet reports on it.
https://youtu.be/YgOAaLmoa68
Additionally there are many anti-virals, effective in both chronic and acute cases (which there are going to be), that have been over rationed over the years. But we are not told why. You don’t have to belong to a dodgy religion to ask good questions.
Dave A A,
I am not allowed to read that, but “community” was a buzz word since the 1980s, and all the dungeons & dragons lookalikes I’ve witnessed, protestant and catholic, charismatic and non, with their self-imported “animators”, are the same. One of my leaders came from a political faction in a certain country that were expert in continually launching “initiatives” (a fraction of which had genuine value to the poor, as a cover).
Charismatics say “it’s a mystery”, organisers say it’s morally bad to have your own mind. But J H Newman (inadvertently sainted when authorities let their alertness slip of late) proclaimed degrees of inference.
people start by being rightfully distrustful of lack of information when school till 18 is compulsory. Then big shouts hijack our reason and kid us it is for a different reason.
No information is conclusive but fills out pictures with masses of what is between plausible and probable. Infants are born with capability of inference.
Samuel Conner,
It’s wonderful to have you and countless others like you commenting here. I’d have had the brain for materials science (I like staring at things and think abstractly a lot) but the traumatic scramble of teen exams and poor coaching left me in some backwaters which fortunately kept my imagination fired, and those were boom years anyway.
linda,
I have been following “worldometer” web site which is tracking COVID by country, State, and county.
As predicted by Dr. Fauci et al, there is now a double peak, which they said would be the result of Thanksgiving gatherings. This a hallmark of a scientific theory.. being able to predict an observation, as opposed to conspiracy “theories” which, as was well explained in OP, do not.
So, my point, these churches have large Christmas gathers are either: 1. Deigning/rejecting science/authority, 2. Saying we do believe in science, but meeting is more important than getting you sick, 3. The numbers and consequences (COVID stats) are exaggerated ( I just saw a video of Johny Mac saying this), 4. It only effects old or those with underlying conditions, 5. A completely political act, 6. ??
Thanks for such a thoughtful response. The discussion about HCQ has been shrill enough to drown out any sort of rational public health policy discussion.
The even greater problem is that Americans (and a good few other humans) have trained ourselves to see political motivation in places where it does not belong, and might not even exist.
Jeffry–yes, some degree of all those things. And some churches here are complete science deniers, as in never see doctors at all. Others are completely political, as in advertising they will not let “liberal Democrats kill Christmas”.
Me and mine? We plan a nice plate of shredded pork enchiladas and our own home candlelight service. Somehow WWJD does not scream “crowd shoulder to shoulder in a poorly ventilated room with a lot of unmasked people singing loudly and passing around trays of crackers and juice.” (Or kneeling at a crowded altar rail and being service said crackers and wine.)
We will worship, and will have real Communion with the Maker of All. But we do not plan any crowd scenes. Then again, PDA’s are not necessary in a really deep love relationship anyway.
Meredithwiggle,
Every parent you know who vaccinated their kids takes a risk. You are right. What you are missing is that their willingness to do this protects your children. You get to live in a world where you are not terrified of polio because other people have vaccinated their children. You get to live in a world where pregnant women are not terrified of rubella hurting their unborn babies. These are just the facts. Be grateful every day for people who are brave enough to take risks with their kids that end up helping your kids stay healthy.
Here’s a couple contributions from the Christian community. Last night a friend reported 3 of our friends are now in the hospital with covid. But a little later he’s saying “I’m not afraid of covid because… Jesus heals.” And a little bit later “We shouldn’t hide God’s image and glory in our faces with a mask”.
Dave A A,
🙁
It would seem to be hard to justify wearing any clothing at all, especially in temperate climes in the Summer.
—
I have the sense that many of the churches and their people have accomplished something remarkable:
They have managed to reproduce in their midst the original Edenic condition of humanity, in which it appears that humanity had little or no ability to distinguish between good and evil.
As for me, my view of the matter is that I am still fallen and still living in a fallen world. I will heed the counsel of the author of Proverbs — the prudent person foresees danger and seeks refuge, but the simple-minded does not correct course and ends up suffering for it.
Samuel Conner,
Oh brother! That’s sort of like saying “You can tell I’m a Christian by just looking at me.” Perhaps we would look more Christian if we wore masks as an act of love and protection for those around us.
This is very true. And so is its opposite: we have also trained ourselves (or got groomed) to fail to see political motivation in places where it does exist. Errors often appear in polar opposites. This is why I try to avoid the extremes on both sides issues. But it seems like the extremes are dominating.
Samuel Conner,
“They have managed to reproduce in their midst the original Edenic condition of humanity, in which it appears that humanity had little or no ability to distinguish between good and evil.”
++++++++++++++++++
it seems to me that christian culture has dumbed itself down so much that many of its citizens are incapable of knowing/sensing right and wrong unless they can find a verse in the bible telling them so.
some can’t even do that, and wait for their spirituality manager (professional christian) to do it for them.
maybe this is the domain of evangelicalism.
a ridiculous state of affairs.
Are they, though?
It’s easy to find examples of Ideas I Can’t Stand, but the world is full of thoughtful ideas too. The covid vaccine research produced impressive collaboration by people in many different countries. The initial results look very promising indeed, although our government is granting emergency use authorizations for now.
HCQ might have fallen victim to undue attention, but it was also studied because of undue attention. Probably it does not have tremendous therapeutic value. Unfortunately, we have a whole planet full of people who are providing research data every day for a host of treatments.
Friend,
I refer to HCQ as “HydroxycholorQ-Anon” because there are so many Conspiracy Crackheads around it that there’s no Signal left amid all the Conspriacy Noise.
During my time in-country, there was a TRVTH going around that you could tell someone was a Christian because if you looked really close at their eyes, you could see the Holy Spirit shining out of them in some way.
Now I consider that to be a folk belief of that culture instead of Divine Revelation.
Remember IMonk’s “The Coming Evangelcial Collapse”?
Well, this is It.
And the word’s out among all the Serpents hawking their Fruits.
Where there’s Easy Prey, the Predators will swarm.
And the Christmas Surge begins after next week, when the Thanksgiving surge is at its peak. ICU beds in Los Angeles County are at 98-100% capacity and there’s talk of a Refrigerated Trailer Shortage. Non-COVID cases are waiting up to six hours to get into ER. But that’s all Fake News, i.e. the Devil’s Lies from the Pit of Hell.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Definitely fake news.. just the other day I watch one of the latest you tube videos from Pastor John MacArthur and HE said it is not a pandemic, he came up with some other name for it…. and he definitely said it is overblown… Heck, JohnMac knows it all, doesn’t he??
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
It would be a just outcome if the County were to start parking fully-loaded cold-storage trailers in the parking spaces that GCC used to lease.
Who knows; that might actually happen.
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
further to my above, it would sort of be a performative adaption of Paul’s remarks in Romans 3
‘ their parking lot is an open grave; with their tongues they keep deceiving ‘
Samuel Conner,
Yup… I just can’t get my head around all the preachers, and “Christians”, that have been blowing off COVID warnings…. but then again, as I keep saying, I am part of the deep state cabal….. errrrrr
Samuel Conner,
If it weren’t so depressing, I would like your comment…
Are all the preachers and “Christians” that have “blow off” the danger of COVID going to comfort all the people that are suffering from COVID, or will they be shunned? At what point will “ideology” run into the brick wall of reality?
HUG answers the question along the lines of what I am thinking. Even though real doctors were finding some benefit when administered early (as mentioned in the resolution 509 whereas statements), all the noise from both sides seemed to guarantee its demise as a potential tool in the arsenal. I’m glad the vaccine was accepted even though some leading politicians suddenly became anti-vaxxers. That was odd.
I doubt that there will be much repentance among the deniers. There’s always the fallback of “God willed it.”
To admit that you are mistaken about something as important as the safety of the lives of your own congregation … hard to do, since it calls into question whether you are right about anything else.
This is one of the reasons that I interpret this kind of thing as being evidence of Romans 1 type “wrath” falling on God’s own people.
It’s sort of like some texts in the Old Testament — the people declare that there is peace, but there is no peace.
Or the inhabitants of Jerusalem under siege believing that because they are the custodians of the Temple, YHWH will not allow the city to fall to the besieging pagans.
That confidence proved to be vain, twice. YHWH abandoned the temple and the people, twice.
It is very disheartening that we do not learn to love wisdom.
Presumption: “too great pride, hope, or confidence; something which is believed to be so, but not proved.”
Presumption is a sin.
Samuel Conner,
Unfortunately, you might be correct w/r to the Romans 1 analogy…. I have thought along similar, but so explicit a way……
growing up/ learning in the “young earth bubble”, and then learning reality I would just shake my head…. but then, I was living with the reality of science daily…. and the “young earth bubble believers” construct their “reality” that avoids facing the issues I daily did… but, COVID, if it keeps marching as it looks like it is, is a grim reality… I am still connected by Facebook with many of HS classmates that still live in this “fundy bubble”…. and now they are spewing vaccine conspiracies… the sad fact is that reality will bite, especially if they don’t get vaccinated….
Was it odd, or was it cautiously nuanced? Are they anti-vaxxers, or vaccine hesitant, or concerned about the initial rollout of a vaccine under emergency authorization?
Like most people here, I’ve been following the vaccine development story for months. Probably most of us are deliberately screening out the crazy rants about how it contains government tracking devices, or that it changes human DNA.
However, I have been paying attention to stories about safety, the several pauses in testing, the several allergic reactions, the whole supply chain thing, and today the questions about why some of the vials are overfilled.
I didn’t want to respond until I was able to talk everything over with my psychologist this afternoon, since I found myself very triggered by this entire thread. It brought up so many past feelings that are leftover from being raised in a very authoritarian, somewhat cultish religious environment. “It doesn’t matter what you think and feel, your own investigations on this subject don’t count, you are wrong and we are right and you must do as we say.” It becomes a very emotional and difficult issue to talk about. Multiple times I wished that I didn’t comment at all, but having followed TWW for nearly ten years now, and only recently begun commenting, I wanted to believe that this community is a safe place for people with different perspectives on difficult topics.
So the question of vaccinating (and I am not talking about the covid vaccine at all, that is a totally different topic in my opinion) or not vaccinating one’s children is not a question of no risk vs big risk. It is well documented that vaccines can and do cause injury. (Vaccine inserts have a list of all the possible adverse effects of each vaccine.) That’s why VAERs is a thing, and has paid out 4 billion in the last thirty(?) years. You cannot sue vaccine makers. You can only appeal for compensation to a federal court and hope that they believe you. So what it boils down to for parents is: what risk are you comfortable with? The risk of your kids getting a disease? Or the risk of them getting a vaccine injury? And that’s where I believe that there is a grey area, that there’s no black-and-white answer, and every parent needs to do their due diligence and make an informed decision. And no family, no child, is alike, and so it is unfair to say that there is only one right decision.
For example, it is now standard practice to vaccinate newborn babies for Hepatitis B. This is a disease you can only get through sexual contact or the use of dirty needles. Yet it is part of the CDC schedule. The only cases of polio in the USA in the last 30 years were caused by the vaccine itself. Some of the other vaccines are for diseases that were once considered perfectly normal during childhood, such as chickenpox and measles– diseases that, for a healthy child, will 99% of the time be more of an inconvenience than a cause for alarm. That isn’t to say that there’s zero risk to a kid getting measles. Just like there isn’t zero risk to a kid getting the MMR.
All I am asking is that when you hear the label “antivaxxer” getting thrown around, realize there is a huge spectrum of real people with real stories behind that term. Are there people out there who believe that all vaccines are evil and the mark of the beast? Sure. But there are way more people like me, parents who want to protect their children from harm, who have looked at the statistics and done the research and decided that *for their family* the best decision is not to vaccinate. Or to delay vaccines. Or to do some but not others. I know people in all those camps.
And as my psychologist pointed out to me, nobody is vaccinating their kids just for the benefit of society. If a parent vaccinates they do it because they believe that it is in their own child’s best interests. So it’s not fair to tell the unvaccinating parent that they must sacrifice their child on the altar of the public good and act against what they believe is the best interest of their child. Nobody who loves their children does that. We always do what we believe is best for our kids.
It’s a great blessing that world leaders have not been running around yelling THE VACCINE IS A MIRACLE! Any ideas why? Is it because needles are scarier than pills/herbs/salve/cleanses?
From one mother to another, here’s CDC information about Hep B (emphasis mine):
“Hepatitis B is a vaccine-preventable liver infection caused by the hepatitis B virus (HBV). Hepatitis B is spread when blood, semen, or other body fluids from a person infected with the virus enters the body of someone who is not infected. This can happen through sexual contact; sharing needles, syringes, or other drug-injection equipment; or from mother to baby at birth. Not all people newly infected with HBV have symptoms, but for those that do, symptoms can include fatigue, poor appetite, stomach pain, nausea, and jaundice. For many people, hepatitis B is a short-term illness. For others, it can become a long-term, chronic infection that can lead to serious, even life-threatening health issues like cirrhosis or liver cancer. Risk for chronic infection is related to age at infection: about 90% of infants with hepatitis B go on to develop chronic infection, whereas only 2%–6% of people who get hepatitis B as adults become chronically infected. The best way to prevent hepatitis B is to get vaccinated.”
https://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/hbv/index.htm#:~:text=Hepatitis%20B%20is%20a%20vaccine,someone%20who%20is%20not%20infected.
Cuomo was not in any way nuanced. He later changed his tune. There were a few others who said similar things. It was all political.
What is your citation for this, please? CDC information does not reflect what you have written: https://www.cdc.gov/polio/what-is-polio/polio-us.html
I also have a response to you about Hep B, but it had to be inspected by the guard pugs. At any rate, it says that Hep B can be passed from mother to child during birth, and through various bodily fluids. The risk of lifelong infection is much higher for infants than for those infected later in life.
I am sorry that you were raised in such a harmful environment, and that you continue to suffer. It’s good that you have sought skilled help. We all do what we believe is best for our children. In my case, what I believe is best is not always what is best. All we can do is keep learning and improving our knowledge and skills.
Friend,
Some of my research involves isolating circulating tumor cells, CTC, associated with head and neck cancer… during my 10-15 years working with it ( literally working with blood samples from 100’s of patients) I saw the majority of patients were older associated with heavy smoking and drinking change to much younger and their cancer positive for HPV… This is the same HPV associated with cervical cancer… it is still “taboo” to say publicly, but this near explosion of HPV positive head and neck cancer is associated with oral s&x.
So, when the vaccine for HPV came out, I had my boys get vaccinated even though it was only recommended for girls ( it is now recommended for boys also)…. if you all saw what I saw, I do not know how one would NOT want their kids vaccinated….. AND I am making NO moral judgement, or prediction on anyones s$xual practices….. all I know is Head and NECK cancer is NASTY, and what they have to do to you to try to stop it is even NASTIER…
You mean Doin’ It DRISCOLL STYLE?
(Cue “Gangnam Style” video w “Driscoll” instead of “Gangnam”…)
Don’t forget Magick Crystals.
Anti-Vaxx has become yet another Litmus Test of your Salvation.
Came across this in a linkfest Eagle sent me — a Texas Monthly article about wedding photographers who get hired to cover Superspreader Weddings:
https://www.texasmonthly.com/being-texan/texas-wedding-photographers-have-seen-some/
Just read it.
Our pediatrician recommended the HPV vaccine, and we also had it administered.
Less cancer in women.
Less cancer in men.
Less cancer in the world.
He doing any Texas Weddings?
https://www.texasmonthly.com/being-texan/texas-wedding-photographers-have-seen-some/
Never. Reality must always bend the knee to Purity of Ideology.
Never understimate the arrogance of God’s Speshul Pets.
I spoke with a friend today who has multiple risk factors for adverse outcomes in the event of infection. The vaccine looks like a really good idea on first analysis. But there’s a complicating factor — a significant allergy, with life-threatening complications if exposed to the allergen. My friend’s reactivity to the materials that are used to stabilize the different mRNA vaccines in unknown. (I believe that the stabilizer is a form of polyethylene glycol. PEGylation is a pretty common way to shield molecules. Apparently there are people who are allergic to it). Severe allergy is an exclusion from the Pfizer trial, so safety data for the study population may not be applicable to my friend. I advised an in-depth conversation about this with a physician, if possible.
——
There’s an interesting problem in old Keynesian economics call “the paradox of thrift.” All else equal, if one person tries to accumulate savings by maintaining income while reducing expenditure, that person will be able to accumulate savings. But while this works for the individual, it will not work for society as a whole if every individual tries to do it. Everyone will find that their income has decreased because of everyone else’s decision to reduce expenditure, and the decline in income will offset the reduction in expenditure so that the attempt to accumulate savings will be frustrated for everyone. What works for the individual does not work for the group if every individual in the group attempts it.
The application to the present situation is obvious.
That said, I think that there are certainly grounds for concern about the vaccines. Their extremely rapid development is both a triumph of human ingenuity (with a bit of “central planning” thrown in, as is appropriate in existential emergencies; we are in a wartime level of crisis) and grounds for an element of caution. The studies are not as thorough as they would have been had the the situation been less dire and it had been possible to spend 5 years or a decade studying the effects of the vaccine in larger populations.
Determination of ability to confer sterilizing immunity was not a study goal in the Pfizer trial, so that on the basis of current data, we don’t actually know if this vaccine will slow transmission by people who have asymptomatic infections, even though there is strong evidence that it does protect from developing disease symptoms (this will be studied in 2021 and we’ll have answers within several months, I think). That’s a big gap in our knowledge. The Moderna trial did test for asymptomatic infection, and their vaccine does appear to reduce the risk of that, though not as much as it reduces the risk of disease symptoms.
We don’t know if the protective immunity (and sterilizing immunity, in the case of the Moderna vaccine) induced by the vaccines last for years or only months. It is conceivable that there might need to be periodic re-vaccinations, possibly with new vaccines developed to deal with changes in the viral genome.
We don’t know much about the long-term effects of the disease, and nothing about possible delayed effects of the immune response to the vaccine.
Given the numerous “known unknowns” (things that we know are potential issues, but that we don’t yet have enough information to quantify the size of the risks — and this applies to both the disease itself and the therapies), I am sympathetic to people who regard the CV vaccines with apprehension.
This elevates my dismay that evidently safe measures for reducing transmission (the mortality rate for side effects of mask wearing and social distancing is probably too small to detect in clinical studies) are not more enthusiastically embraced.
Many people are hoping that the vaccines will allow us to let our guards down in terms of the burdens of “distancing” and mask wearing. I think that it would be wise to be mentally prepared for the possibility that these precautionary measures will continue to be prudent even as the vaccines become widely distributed.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
One that specifically comes to mind (facebook HS classmate) spews allot of Christainese also… I would say about 1/2 right wing nut stuff, 1/2 Christainese….. it is actually quite something to read… in fact, some of stuff I see on her Facebook I see before it hits the national media… and I have learned about several right wing nut House of Rep members from her… and again, I sometimes see them in the national news.. in fact, one is now under ethics investigation….
Samuel Conner,
It is my understanding that the mRNA vaccines are encapsulated in a micelle/ lipid nanoparticle. I just checked, and wiki lists the lipids used to encapsulate the mRNA….. if I can find the details that quick, the info is out…. the FDA requires the “packing” with the drug to list the ingredients….
The original (oral) polio vaccine that some of us received as children was a live virus vaccine (weakened, or ‘attenuated’), which does have a slight risk of causing polio in UNVACCINATED people, supposedly by recombining into a virulent form and being shed from the vaccinated person to potentially affect others not vaccinated, especially in lower-hygiene environments.
The current polio vaccine, inactivated (IPV) is the only one used in the U.S. since about 2000 and does not have that risk.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/public/index.html
And good riddance.
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
agreed — but …
https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download
A PEG derivative is mentioned in the ingredients list. It’s hard to sift signal from noise, but I have seen suggestions that PEG allergy may be present in some people.
There are reports of a small number (single digits) of anaphylaxis after injection. In two cases that I have read reports of (the events were in UK), the patients were known to have severe allergy, and apparently the administering staff were not aware of the study exclusion of this subpopulation; had they been aware, probably the vaccine would not have been administered to those patients.
For what it’s worth… I have had three life-threatening illnesses. Two had clear treatment protocols to which I responded. The third had more complicated protocols, with incremental decisions and treatments. One potential treatment was in a statistical gray area for me as an individual patient.
I agonized over this for months. Fortunately another study came out, and doctors did lean toward recommending the treatment, although it remained optional for someone in my situation.
My little rule: I will choose short-term survival over long-term risks and unknowns.
Samuel Conner,
One sobering irony is that our stressed-out and depleted population of health care workers are the first to receive the vaccine.
Thanks for your comment. Much to think about.
Meredithwiggle,
Regarding your comment, today, 831pm.
{Thumbs up emoji}
This is probably my greatest apprehension about the vaccines. They are being deployed first in the most vulnerable (since most heavily exposed and unable to “distance” at the workplace) and essential part of the population.
I so so hope that there are not low-probability (and thus undetectable in the trials thus far) adverse outcomes in this population. It will frighten everyone else and further demoralize these exhausted heroes.
The “flatten the curve” meme that we all are now familiar with was, to first order, about protecting the workers who labor in the health system. We need them and the widespread (thankfully not more widespread than it is, but still dishearteningly widespread) reluctance to accept personal limitations for their sake was not only (IMO) profoundly selfish, but also deeply unwise — darkened understanding rooted in flawed heart worship, in the language of Romans 1.
I also think that our rulers, both legislature and executive branch, bear significant blame. A stricter and longer nation-wide lock-down with Federal income replacement and only essential work permitted, until community spread was controlled and “contact trace” and isolation systems were implemented (some nations — not many, but some — have managed this, so it is possible in principle) could have beaten the US epidemic down to a controllable level at which point a more conventional vaccine development schedule would have been realistic to contemplate. What we did instead was a weaker lockdown that was relaxed too soon while uncontrolled community spread was still happening.
It’s multi-fail at so many levels.
Agreed, and there’s something else to consider beyond the notion that both sides have extreme views, which keeps coming up.
In every country the head of state has the greatest influence, and then there’s everybody else: public health officials, mayors, provincial/state politicians, journalists, and the public. It is genuinely difficult to size up any crisis and steadily lead any nation through unpleasant changes.
Regarding allergic reactions to the vaccine, so far they have been successfully treated. I suspect there will be protocol coming out to premedicate people with possible allergies who still want to be vaccinated (or even for 2nd dose, after a 1st dose reaction), e.g. we can give iv contrast dye (like for CT scans) to people with dye-allergy by premedicating with steroids and Benadryl. So the allergy doesn’t necessarily have to be a contraindication.
Thanks, now I know who you’re talking about. There has been a comparable lack of nuance by many, many other politicians on the topic of masks, gatherings, and closures.
We need to listen to our thousands of capable public health officials more than to politicians. The role of politicians in a crisis is to help people cooperate and to steer funding toward the right priorities.
One state left liquor stores open in the spring, when some other places had to close. The political messages wrote themselves! In fact, officials made that decision because hospital capacity was nearly maxed out—unable to handle an influx of people in sudden alcohol withdrawal.
I also have to disagree with the idea that we vaccinate only for the sake of ourselves (or our children); Americans in general (and I know not all Wartburgers are Americans) are too used to thinking only of “I” (myself, my family), not the “we” of society, and we take the overall good public health we have here for granted.
I am pre-emptively putting this into moderation and invite Dee and/or GBTC to leave it in quarantine until they have time to take a look to make an assessment whether or not it is suitable for this thread.
—
I saw this item this AM at my favorite news/analysis ‘blog
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2020/12/covid-the-politicization-of-science-and-more-questions-about-the-pfizer-vaccine-approval.html
It overlaps extensively with so many issues that have been raised in this thread.
I think it’s a worthwhile summary. Just as I trust the judgment of the TWW team when they call issues to my attention, I trust the judgment of the operators of this ‘blog on matters that they find important enough to post. Admittedly, the post subjects are not 100% within the expert competencies of the ‘blog operators, but my observation over years has been that their judgment is generally quite sound. These are not hysterical people. They are also not highly political in a conventional partisan sense; they are quite scornful of both sides of the US political spectrum, which they believe have become detached from the concerns of most of the people of the US.
My perception is that folks in the USA are especially attuned to making most decisions based on their self-interests largely excluding how their decisions might affect society as a whole (don’t tell me whether I can drive my 3 ton, 10 miles to the gallon, metal beast across the environment).
Maybe that is just because of how my perception has been informed by my upbringing and the stupid things I see Americans doing in the news and on YouTube. ♂️
And everyone shouted AMEN! (or should have)
Samuel Conner,
Article raises lots of significant issues.. as also stated, the US is forced into the this position because the whole COVID situation has became so politicized… with 45 threatening to fire the head of the FDA for taking so long to approve it, the whole process does get further compromised…
Given the current overwhelmed hospitals in many cities, and potential/ trajectory to get much worse, we will all experience the consequences of this politicization…. lets hope and pray no significant vaccine side effects on the massive scale it is going to be tested, AND it works…
Max,
And don’t forget how some much of American Christianity has sold itself very cheaply to both political extremes..
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
I might also add that most approved “drugs” have side effects, some VERY serious.. and look at cigarettes/smoking… it is not just a “your choice” issues… we all pay for the health effects of smoking… and obesity…
we live in a world of risks, and most people are equipped, or willing to make risk/return calculations… in fact, supposedly one of the most risky things for kids is riding bikes! But, most people still let them do it, why??
Most Americans are not extremists, though.
A lot of folks on the extreme left want nothing to do with any religion (certainly not Christianity!), or they have shifted to neopaganism and other movements. A strange accelerating trend is that folks on the extreme right are also casting off major religions, going with Q or improvising practices related to Norse gods.
Yes, and that’s the note on which the linked item ends.
The more fundamental concern is that 2020 has brought to light more vividly than was previously apparent (but it was previously already pretty apparent) that our governance systems are not working well for the majority of the people. That state of affairs presumably will continue until the people find a way to hold their governance systems more accountable than they have been.
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
CDD report on stats on injury/death to kids in the US
https://www.cdc.gov/safechild/pdf/cdc-childhoodinjury.pdf
I too disagree with the idea we only vaccinate to protect our own kids. If that is true then this world probably has truly no hope.
As to one poster (busy morning, forgive me, I forget who) that mentioned growing up in an authoritarian and repressive home and how their psychologist is helping them learn to stand up to authority or think things through for themselves and such, I would posit a thought we found helpful. We fostered and adopted, and one child had been through just that sort of mill. And came out the other end with a degree of oppositional defiant disorder than ran under the radar. Part of treatment was learning NOT to automatically discount authorities telling you what to do.
We stop at stop signs and red lights not just for ourselves, but the good of all.
We don’t drive drunk not just for ourselves but the good of all.
We wear masks not just for ourselves, but the good of all.
Unless we have a medical condition that precludes it, we vax not just for ourselves but for the good of all.
And with those last two, if for whatever reason we cannot comply, we absent ourselves from society and stay home FOR THE GOOD OF ALL.
which, perhaps unsurprisingly, brings us “full circle” back to the problems of the churches, which are also problems of governance, and the interests of the governed, at that level.
1) Q-Anon has become a Fundamentalist religion in all but name. And a MILITANT one.
2) “Improvising practices related to Norse gods” as in Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler’s replacement for Christianity?
These days, is there a difference?
Long ago I came to the conclusion we’re all living in a never-ending episode of South Park.
And after the past couple years you can add Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss to the mix.
Insanity is part of these times, and Christians have Embraced the Madness.
My daughter is an ICU nurse. She is not allowed to get the vaccine because she is still breastfeeding. Should she stay home for the good of all at a time when nurses are already overloaded?
Headless Unicorn Guy,
2) Yes. Turns out that some people who want an entirely white town or state are not the churchgoing kind, but they don’t mind having a European/Norse religious backstory and swag.
In a way that is good, since they are not further degrading churches. However, the churches are also not leading them away from ideologies that our forebears defeated in the 1940s. (I don’t want to give specific groups any oxygen here.)
Although I’m not Linda, I do want to respond.
I am grateful for your daughter’s work. Even though she cannot have the vaccine right now, I hope that people around her will have it and offer some protection to her.
The idea of staying home is complicated, with some accusations of privilege, and also some implications that the country will “shield the vulnerable” by shutting them away forever. I do stay home for my own safety, for the safety of others, to show the example to youngsters in my orbit, and also because our governor has asked us to stay home more for the time being.
The workers in my family go to work. That is not an affront to me. I stay home. That is not an affront to them.
Indeed! Vaccination is the most effective method of preventing infectious diseases. We MUST vaccinate a significant percentage of the U.S. population if we are going to achieve the herd immunity needed to end this pandemic. Smallpox, polio, tetanus and many other diseases have been controlled/eliminated throughout much of the world because of vaccines … for the good of all.
I understand that this is a really emotional topic for you, and I do get that. But I want to push back on this. My family and I have done a number of medical missions trips to Kenya, where people have walked upwards of 60 km to see a doctor. We’ve stayed at a children’s home, and it’s been life changing for everyone who has gone with us (we’ve led teams of many doctors, teachers, etc.) And I can tell you that one of the big reasons that I made sure my kids were vaccinated was that I realized that if the First World stops vaccinating, it will be the Third World that pays. If we allow these diseases to run rampant here (which they are already starting to do in pockets), we will likely still be okay, because we have good medical care. But the Third World does not. When you see mothers walking for an entire day or two to get their kids vaccinated–it gives you a different perspective. What they need is for these diseases to be wiped out, which we could accomplish, as we did with smallpox, if everyone vaccinated. So, yes, I vaccinated my kids partly for the Third World, and partly for them (because the risk to them from the disease is far greater than the risk from the vaccine, especially with so many parents choosing not to vaccinate and allowing these diseases to spread again).
We need to realize that being able to choose whether or not to vaccinate your kids is a privilege. The majority of the world doesn’t have that. They’re desperate. They are the least of these, and God does ask us to care for them.
Thank you for your kind words. All her coworkers got the vaccine earlier this week. I believe most of her patients right now have COVID – she has avoided it this far.
The issue of who stays at home is indeed complicated. If everyone stayed home it would wipe out COVID, but there would be many more deaths than what we have right now. And it would be impossible to keep everyone at home. It makes sense for some people to stay home, but I doubt we will ever have enough data to scientifically prove what is the sweet spot.
You have done praiseworthy work. Thank you for telling us about it.
We Americans are used to thinking we are medically more fortunate than others, and that has often been the case (although prejudice against “dirty foreigners” has created problems stateside).
My ancestors came to America in the early 1600s and certainly brought diseases to which the native population had no immunity. With the covid rates right now, anyone who leaves the USA poses some level of risk in the country where they go. Travel is limited, of course, reducing spread of the disease while creating other problems.
Here’s the Johns Hopkins University world covid map and statistics: https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html
I was raised in a swampy area. Mosquitoes – lots of them – lived in the swamps. My family were God-fearing people who had a lot of common sense. To protect ourselves from mosquito-borne illness, we installed screens on doors and windows, used insect repellents, wore protective clothing, and eliminated breeding sites for mosquitoes on our property. We all survived.
Wear your mask, social distance, sanitize/disinfect, vaccinate yourself.
Keeping people at home seems to have worked much better in some other countries. Any ideas why?
In which countries did it work well? There is no possible way to keep everyone home without massive loss of life on a scale many times larger than the virus.
SheilaG,
This is true AND it doesn’t negate the objective things Meredith mentioned. God’s universe is big enough for ALL truth. I think it’s wrong to impute selfish motives when people describe straightforwardly. We have no reason to believe the condition of the children Meredith mentions (who don’t have to be her own) isn’t serious, since she has no obligation to detail it. Most of us here are on the brink in many ways, and increasingly “the system” may not help us (for example, UK doesn’t have a damage compensations scheme that I heard of, and that there were few cases, after subtracting some coincidences, doesn’t mean that there were no cases).
When we follow ideals towards poorer residents of other countries, we should do so in Holy Spirit inspiration and not moralising. Meredith hasn’t contradicted Dee (who at first was short on argument but has began adducing some) and hasn’t agreed with any hoaxers. Centralisation has been mentioned but not by many: it is in fact identical toi when we as members of our old churches (an experience Meredith has in common with us) sswore to replace our iniootiative withnn that of someone more out of touch than us, whom it now suits to turn hoaxer, as diversion from real hazards.