“He had, in fact, got everything from the church and Sunday School, except, perhaps, any longing whatever for decency and kindness and reason.”
Lewis, Sinclair. Elmer Gantry. Kindle Edition.
“I have been struck by how often we are told that Jesus saw. Matthew tells us that Jesus was going through all the cities and villages and that “seeing the people, He felt compassion for them, because they were distressed [harassed] and dispirited like sheep without a shepherd” (9:36 NASB).
Jesus continues to see, and he invites us to stand with him and see—to feel the pain, the sorrow, the crushing, and the agony of precious sheep who have no shepherd, no caregiver, no comforter. Much of Christendom today seems less interested in seeing as Jesus saw, less inclined to enter in, and far more interested in gaining power. We have acquired fame, money, status, reputation, and our own little kingdoms. We have read too many headlines about Christian leaders and Christian systems that look nothing like our Lord. I fear we have lost our way. It is time for those of us who name his name to stop and listen to our King, who was moved with compassion, a true Shepherd longing to both feed and enfold the sheep. We follow a God who listens to us and weeps with us. That is evident in the life of Jesus. The incarnation is perhaps the greatest expression ever seen of empathic listening. Jesus came and pitched his tent among us—a virtual refugee camp. That meant drinking our water, sharing our chores, experiencing our losses, joining in our laughter, and weeping with us when we mourned. We need to learn to listen as he does. You see, he knows what it is like to be you. He has given you the gift of being heard and known and asks you, in turn, to give it to others. He longs for us to walk with him, caring for the distressed, the fleeced, the ones damaged by violence and tossed aside. He desires us to look with his eyes of love and hear with his keen ears. He has invited us to labor with him and to be with others just as he was.”Langberg, Diane. Redeeming Power (pp. xi-xii). Baker Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. (Emphasis mine.)
On December 8, 2020, Phoenix Seminary released a video on Twitter (seen below) hailing the release of Wayne Grudem’s 2nd edition of Systematic Theology.
I was not surprised that Phoenix Seminary produced the video. Grudem’s first volume on Systematic Theology was wildly successful, selling over 500,000 copies. (The cover of the 2nd edition states that over 750,000 copies have been sold.) The video, effusive in its praise of Wayne Grudem, was expected from Phoenix Seminary leaders who, like any institution of higher learning, will attempt to capitalize on the release of a new book by a popular author whom (I believe) still serves in a limited capacity as a Professor at their Seminary. The video should serve as a useful recruiting tool, indeed if you click on the link to Phoenix Seminary in the video you are taken to a page where you may obtain a free download of chapter 45 from the new book by merely providing your name, email, and checking a box which gauges your interest in enrollment at Phoenix Seminary.
However, Phoenix Seminary, unlike a secular institution, represents Christ to the onlooking world and therefore, prior to embarking upon a publicity campaign based on the release of Grudem’s book they owe it to their staff, faculty, students, and the greater cause of Christ to conduct at minimum a cursory check of the author’s life to ensure their colleague and well-known author has no potentially embarrassing issues in his life. Had the leadership of Phoenix Seminary done this they would have discovered that Wayne Grudem has, in my opinion, several issues that draw his character into question.
Chief among these issues is Grudem’s ongoing and strident support of C.J. Mahaney, a pastor who once was the Executive President of Sovereign Grace Ministries and Senior Pastor of Covenant Life Church. Mahaney has been credibly charged with covering up the sexual abuse of children in his denomination while he held the office of Executive President.
I took Phoenix Seminary up on their offer to download a chapter of Grudem’s new book for free. Included in this download was a lengthy list of endorsements by well-known men (and one woman – Dr. Sharon James, social policy analyst, the Christian Institute, UK, author and speaker. – I have never heard of her.) I was stunned to see that the lengthy list of endorsees included C.J. Mahaney! What is Grudem thinking? Is he attempting, once again, to legitimize his good friend?
Mahaney starts his endorsement with flattery, which is in character with his standard method of operation. What follows is interesting. Are you aware that Mahaney utilized a ghost-writer for “his” books? I am not certain if the man has ever had an original thought in his life, and it appears he has stayed true to form in his endorsement of Grudem’s book. Compare Mahaney’s endorsement to that of John Piper’s endorsement:
Do you see how they are similar but not exactly the same; of the same format but not plagiarizing? (See what I did there?) I am left to wonder if Ceej got in touch with Piper and asked for some helpful ideas on writing an endorsement, so Piper forwarded Ceej his endorsement? It’s rather eerie.
Speaking of eerie, who would include an endorsement from a guy who has been moldering in the grave for six months now? Wayne Grudem, that’s who. True enough, the endorsement states that it was actually an endorsement from the first version, but is it propper to cut and paste that to his revised version? The first version has been out for years. Who is to say that were Packer still alive he would endorse the 2nd edition? My feelings are it’s in poor taste to include it, yet not as crass as including an endorsement from Mahaney; it’s not advisable, yet somewhat understandable. (See what I did there? Sorry, I couldn’t help myself.)
Other men who endorsed Grudem’s book are Southern Baptist Theological Seminary professors Tom Schreiner and Bruce Ware. Both men (like Grudem) also made the trek to Mahaney’s runaway church plant in Louisville in 2013 to express their support for C.J. Mahaney. None of them have, to my knowledge, ever publicly retracted their support for the man who has (in my opinion) covered up the sexual abuse of children in his denomination and then lied about it.
The Charismatic Terry Virgo also endorsed Grudem’s book. When we last heard of Virgo he was seen urging Covenant Life Church to hire his good buddy P.J. Smyth to replace Joshua Harris. You may recall that P.J. Smyth was deeply involved in helping his father, John Smyth, avoid legal entanglements when in 1997 he was arrested and faced charges of killing a 16 year old boy, Guide Nyachuru, who was found dead in a swimming pool at one of the holiday camps in 1992. John Smyth was also accused of injuring the dignity of five other boys who alleged they had been subjected to savage beatings. Shortly after P.J. Smyth was installed as the new pastor at Covenant Life Church bloggers broke the story of his knowledge and assistance in his father’s problems. P.J. Smyth changed his story several times, eventually claiming amnesia. Soon thereafter Smyth and CLC parted ways. Of course they sold it to the church members as a church plant! John Smyth had a long history of abusing teenage boys and died just before he was to return to the UK to face an investigation. You can read about it here. So, thanks for the great recommendation, Mr. Virgo. Your endorsement of Grudem’s latest book inspires no confidence from me.
Here is an email I wrote back in 2013, urging Grudem not to speak at C.J. Mahaney’s runaway church plant. Grudem was too busy to reply to a lackey such as me, but he delegated the task to one of his lackeys. Note the sentence “Dr. Grudem is speaking specifically so that he can signal support for CJ in the face of unjust accusations.”
Grudem has had over 7 years and a mountain of evidence to reconsider his ignorant response. Apparently, he still thinks the accusations are unjust. To which I can only say, I certainly would not purchase a book written by this man.
It is apparent to me that Grudem values the friendship, flattery, and financial support of C.J. Mahaney more than he values the lives of those who were sexually abused. Financial support, you ask? Yes. While I don’t know how much money Mahaney funneled, it was significant.
The statement below was taken from the SGM Survivors website. I believe Paul K. to be reputable and knowledgeable. He used to attend Covenant Life Church.
Here is the recording of Wayne Grudem speaking at C.J. Mahaney’s runaway church plant in 2013.
I wish to draw your attention once again to the video produced by Phoenix Seminary. This clip is of Ray Ortlund and I think it does an amazing job of revealing the proud, pompous hearts of many men in the Gospelly Celebrity Club. Not content to just praise Grudem, Ortlund has to insert himself into the narrative and boldly claim that he and Wayne have stood shoulder to shoulder and will be ushering in the 3rd Great Awakening!
I liked the comment Tweeted by Brent Detwiler in response to this video of Ortlund:
I also wanted to include this poignant statement from former Sovereign Grace member, Pam Palmer. She knows of what she speaks. Read the last 4 lines. Wayne Grudem is providing cover for those who have conspired to coverup the sexual abuse of children, yet all these leaders continue to support him. This must stop!
Mahaney, in a statement released on May 22, 2014, denied he had ever conspired to protect a child predator.
In spite of Mahaney’s statement that “I have never conspired to protect a child predator, and I also deny all claims made against me in the civil suit,” overwhelming evidence has been provided (and more evidence will continue to be revealed) to the contrary. Below is one such piece of evidence.
Finally, here is a letter from a young lady who is a graduate of Cedarville University. She gets it. She refuses to support those who support sexual abusers and their enablers. I pray her tribe greatly increases!
I have much more that needs to be said about Wayne Grudem, but I will have to say it in another post.
First
Great post: chock full of info.
I’d rather listen to a songbird who sings in a tree by the brook than these guys any day.
In the middle ages powerful people took Christianity and made it into a political system. It needed to be reformed to set God’s people free.
In the 20th and 21st Centuries powerful people have taken Christianity and made it into a business system. It needs to be reformed and needs to be challenged. But credible alternative and Christ like models of leadership need to be encouraged, trained, modeled and supported.
Here are some things that some people have already started to do:
1. Challenge the ‘Christian Publishing Evangelical-Military Complex” – make more material open source.
2. Challenge the mindset of running leadership in churches like corporations – no “executive pastors”. When working in a church plant overseas our missionary team leader made sure it was him cleaning the toilets. Less suits more buckets.
3. Focus on preaching to the poor and needy.
4. Less focus on websites and TV programs – people will come if there are miracles and reconciliation and mercy.
5. Encourage the difficult people who ask lots of questions – then we will have more who will be willing to stand up and say “Here I stand, I can do nothing else”
The first time I saw a video of Mahaney preaching it seemed obvious that he was mimicking Piper’s style and mannerisms. I’ve always wondered if that’s why Piper likes him.
By the way, wrong topic, but thank you WW and Falwells for turning me onto the Trailer Park Boys. We just got Netflix and I’m almost finished binging through all 12 seasons.
Attempts to put the mind of God into a neat systematic theological box is to stand in arrogance before the Creator. Grudem can keep revising his book until the cows come home, but he still won’t get it right.
Birds sing songs that God put in their heart. These guys sing songs from human intellect, not a touch from God.
As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. New Calvinism is a mutual admiration society populated by some of the weirdest people on the planet. The young reformers can’t wait to get up each morning to read the latest Piper Point, Mohler Moment, Mahaney Malarkey, Dever Drivel, etc. They live to tweet and retweet these gems across cyberspace. What a cast of characters! Come Lord Jesus!
Chris Parsons – Aotearoa New Zealand,
Great comment!
Theirs is a religion oozing with cruelty, blood, and despair…
Max,
Not just arrogance, it also shows ignorance….. while it is helpful to define terms and concepts for discussion/debates, and ATTEMPTS to define orthodoxy, how can anyone really grasp the concept of an all powerful, all knowing, eternal G$d?? ( the infamous omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresence)
The older I get, and the more I realize how little I understand about creation; the more I shake my head in disgust when people are so convinced they have the correct theology…
For example the “ New Calvanist” have presented to me NOTHING that sheds any new light on the fundamental conflict/conundrum of free will/predestination that I did not learn in theology class 40 years ago….
Before Lifeway figured out a way to run all of the other Christian bookstores out of business before running their own bookstores out of business, I was able to scan Grudem’s Systemmatic Theology to read his heresies in his own words. Now the the Christian bookstores in my area are all shut down I don’t want to pay for this book to find out if he still teaches heresy about the Trinity.
Speaking of eerie, who would include an endorsement from a guy who has been moldering in the grave for six months now?
Not only that, J.I. Packer stopped teaching and writing a few years before his death due to vision loss. Including Packer’s endorsement in the new edition seems disrespectful at best.
He does.
https://twitter.com/M_Y_Emerson/status/1337398745399504898?s=20
Whether to use endorsements from the first edition on a second edition probably depends on how different the two editions are though it should be clear which edition was being endorsed. I suspect there is not much difference in editions in this case. I do know of a historian whose second edition of a biography had major revisions due to a trove of papers by and about the subject being found which revealed him to be a lot nastier than she had initially thought; in such a case reusing endorsements is probably a bad idea.
Sharon James seems to be best known now for her anti-transgender campaign (before that anti-same sex marriage). She studied history at Cambridge, MDiv at the Toronto Baptist Seminary, and a doctorate at the University of Wales (which has had some issues due to some academic malfeasance with validating courses and degrees from other universities, https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-15157119). So I looked up what I think is her thesis. Apparently the University of Wales validated her degree from Spurgeon’s College in London
***
Evangelical response to the reconfiguration of family in England, 1960-2010 / Sharon Ann James.
Sharon Ann James dissertant. University of Wales. degree granting institution.; Spurgeon’s College.
Thesis (Ph.D.) – Spurgeon’s College, 2011. (University of Wales validated scheme) 2011
***
A legit degree but somewhat shadowed.
In the section on the Trinity in his first edition he described the Father is the husband who is in charge, Jesus as the wife who submits to the husband, and the Holy Spirit as the child who submits to both the father and the mother. I’m wondering if he retained that section.
Dee, this is very important indeed. Thank you for including the Virgoists (whom I found increasingly vague yet obsessed with “plants” in specific places) and also the way the clique are foisting ESV on all the churches when there was already a wealth of well established and helpfully critiqued versions.
“endorsements by…Dr. Sharon James, social policy analyst, the Christian Institute, UK, author and speaker. – I have never heard of her”
https://banneroftruth.org/us/about/banner-authors/sharon-james/
relevant info from bio:
is daughter of Errol Hulse (Reformed Baptist bigwig)
“has spoken to many different audiences on biblical womanhood”
was “heavily involved” at Eden Baptist Chapel, Cambridge
[as was Grudem: “I came to England and completed a Ph.D. in New Testament…We were actively involved at Eden Baptist in Cambridge”]
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/adrianwarnock/2006/12/interview-wayne-grudem-part-one/
singleman,
This strikes me as an “ad hominem” argument twice over as well as a cynical and belated admission. Has Grudem attained “personal infallibility”?
I can’t remember if this has been mentioned before, but SGM/SGC paid for Grudem’s sabbatical so he could edit the ESV Study Bible. If you’ll remember, early editions of the ESVSB were promoted with a kickback to the Pastors College – it was a promo-sticker on them. Now, as CJ and SGC are eager to continue to cash in on that relationship as they look to rebuild their brand and CJ’s influence. Queue a book from CJ on Job’s sufferings, etc. at some point in 2021. Who wouldn’t want to buy a book by a guy who’s endorsements sit nets to Piper, Ortlund, etc.?
Next will follow a line of SGC books, which will be spun out of Mellinger’s new “SGC Journal” work.
When the following popped up this week on Bloomberg via the PR Newswire, the church as institutional multi-national power broker looks like it might be craving a Middle Age redux:
https://www.bloomberg.com/press-releases/2020-12-08/the-council-for-inclusive-capitalism-with-the-vatican-a-new-alliance-of-global-business-leaders-launches-today-kifinm13
The picture from the site to which they direct you is thought-provoking to say the least:
https://www.inclusivecapitalism.com/join-the-movement/
The designation of “Guardians” and the initial (evidently self-appointed) roster of them is also quite interesting. It brought to mind things Praetorian on one level. I also find it neat that the gang May had time in these trying times of isolation to manage a group photo (bonus points for those who can identify the portrait in the background):
https://www.inclusivecapitalism.com/our-guardians/
Anyone think that this will lead to anything but initiatives with even less transparency, accountability, and oversight than the Vatican’s abuse scandal history? Under the same link, note that one of the organizations listed is California’s reportedly troubled pension system CalPERS has joined. Here’s just one of the failures of oversight, transparency, and oversight with which their brass has been connected:
https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/pr/former-calpers-ceo-pleads-guilty-corruption-conspiracy
Autocrats gonna autocrat, and it seems to be picking up at warp speed in some quarters.
Erp,
Very helpful information. Thanks, Erp.
It’s doubtful that much has changed in Grudem’s 2nd edition of Systematic Theology therefore I would guess were Packer still alive he likely would not have objected to endorsing Grudem’s 2nd edition.
Perhaps someone in the know could enlighten me on how the endorsement process works. Does the publisher generally suggest/organize/obtain all the endorsements? I would guess that the author has some say because, in the case of this book, I cannot believe anyone other than Grudem would include an endorsement from C.J. Mahaney. Endorsements generally seem to be used to help sales. If a potential book purchaser sees an endorsement by an individual he/she holds in high esteem they would be more inclined to purchase the book. Obviously Packer is highly esteemed in the greater Evangelical world – his name has selling power. That is undoubtedly why they chose to cut and paste his endorsement from the 1st edition to the 2nd edition. While it may be acceptable, I think it is in poor taste, just more crass commercialism.
Erp,
Without wandering off the subject, the University of Wales, like a few others in the UK, is now in a position to vet the content of courses offered by Bible Colleges, Bible Training Institutes and to derister them if they are thought to be teaching doctrines at variance with the current worldview. Given that they deregistered The premier Baptist college in the UK, Spurgeon’s College without finding any fault or wrongdoing by them (or any other UK Christian college), I think there is cause for concern.
Michael in UK,
As for Terry Virgo’s endorsement, there is a simpler explanation – Wayne Grudem’s ST endorsed the case for the continuation of miraculous gifts after the death of the Apostles and the completion of the canon. It gave legitimacy to the charismatics. And the source of the legitimacy came from a (New) Calvinist.
But the real focus should be Eden Baptist church in Cambridge., which was led for many years by Roy Clements.. A number of New Calvinists sat under his teaching until the point when he resigned, left his wife and identified as gay.
It is all very tragic for everyone.
For the record I know a number pastors, now in the USA, who trained at Spurgeon’s College, I’ve known Terry Virgo for many years, I studied, among other places, in a Welsh Bible College and am familiar with the accreditation process, I know of Roy Clements but have had no interaction with him but I’ve often wondered why so many Americans like to mention their association with Cambridge University and Eden Baptist church.
The only Systematic Theology we need is 1 Cor 13.
Speaking of PHD Theologians, I am dealing with my own with a very old friend of mine. I have sort of lost touch with him for about five years and came back to join a Zoom bible study that he leads to find out that he is now proudly and loudly wearing the Universalist badge. He appears to have gotten this from a book in the top 40 sellers in three categories on Amazon. The wiki page on the man describes his communication style as “Pyrotechnic” which made me think of the Pyromaniacs and the posts here about them. My friend has a b.a. in religious studies and has multiple bookcases full of books which are mostly theological in nature behind him on his webcam. He loves a man: David Bentley Hart who is well known for being both exceedingly arrogant and rude. All the while he teaches about how important it is to be Christlike while not doing it himself. Is this not what Jesus said to look out for when he said to “Beware the leaven of the Pharisees which is hypocrisy?” Sounds like this applies equally to Grudem. Beware men who tell you what truth is and how to live it while obviously not trying at all to live it themselves. Did not Jesus also say something about the blind leading the blind into a ditch?
Jerome,
Jerome,
Thanks for the links, Jerome. Always appreciated.
Lowlandseer,
Very interesting comment. Thanks, Lowlandseer!
Trying to stay on the subject but failing, here is a step by step history of Capitol Hill Baptist Church given by Mark Dever to his “Weekenders”. It’s a lengthy document but very interesting. Might be worth a post or two.
https://www.scribd.com/document/260966575/9-Marks-Weekender-Notebook
Totally creepy.
In fact, it pegged out the needle on my creepo-meter.
Do people really buy into this horse-sh…. er… ah… horse poo-poo?
I prefer a more stronger Mutual word than “Admiration” that still ends with “-ation”.
And after THESE MenaGAWD’s antics, I don’t want to hear ANY “Tsk. Tsk.” denunciations of my Gamer, Furry Fandom, Bronydom, or RCC associations.
In three words:
“GAWD! HATH!! SAID!!!”
(Which according to my writing partner is also the title of the SCARIEST Christian Reconstructionist site he’s ever encountered on the Web.)
So even in the Godhead, it’s Boots Stamping on Faces all the way down.
Kiss Up, Kick Down.
THAT sort of Theology could only have come from a control freak who’s REAL God is POWER STRUGGLE.
Yes, the young reformers who are taking over SBC idolize Grudem, accepting every word out of his mouth as truth. Grudem’s version of reformed theology has warped their minds; they’re not worth a plug nickel as church leaders believing his aberrations of faith.
Look at it this way: Like a posthumous Hero of the Soviet Union, he isn’t around to dispute the Official Story/Party Line.
Better than that.
He’s attained GODHOOD.
And the name’s “WAYNE GRUDEM GO WAYNE GRUDEM!(TM)”
Because the ESV is the Only CORRECT Version, the Inerrant Word of God.
Just like the 1611 King Jimmy.
Which according to my college economics textbook was predicted by Karl Mark in his systems analysis Das Kapital. Predatory businesses devouring each other (what’s now called “growth by acquisition”/”corporate raiding”) until there is only one left, and when it has no more prey to devour to keep away collapse, it takes everything down with it.
Chris Parsons – Aotearoa New Zealand,
“In the 20th and 21st Centuries powerful people have taken Christianity and made it into a business system. …
Here are some things that some people have already started to do:
1. Challenge the ‘Christian Publishing Evangelical-Military Complex” – make more material open source.”
+++++++++++++++++
i just love how Right Now Media has joined the gravy train, using The Great Commission as a means to make money and sounding all noble and righteous about it.
“The Mission of Right Now Media
Our mission is to work with the global church to inspire people to love others before self and Christ above all.”
For a profit, that is. Inspiring churches to turn over to them other-people’s-money, sacrificially-given.
https://www.rightnowmedia.org/us/mission
Scripture speaks much about the sovereignty of God. Scripture speaks much about the free will of man. It all works together in salvation in a way that is beyond human comprehension. Grudem’s systematic theology and the NeoCals who follow his every word do not have a corner on truth.
… which will end in confusion and disillusionment once the NeoCal bubble breaks.
https://twitter.com/kmancollier/status/5985458282
“@zbowden telling a/b his celebrity sightings at ETS-Grudem sat in front of him & @johnpiper walked past him in the bathroom.”
zbowden = Zach Bowden, now flunky to Thomas White at Cedarville Univ.
Here is it, if you can watch it:
https://youtu.be/GAmzaAtvhvw
Ken F (aka Tweed),
New Calvinism, with its host of strange leaders, is a cult … pure and simple.
Flashback to 1990s…
Grudem: PDI has “God’s favor and blessing”
He especially likes that ‘People of Destiny International’ is teaching Complementarianism:
https://web.archive.org/web/19990220221237/http://www.pdinet.org/sovgrace/v16no3-3.html
Headless Unicorn Guy,
I know you are being facetious but I am always leery of the ESV since so many Calvinists and Reformed people endorse it. It is like they created this version of the bible to support Calvinism/”sovereign grace.” The term “sovereign grace” from what I understand is another way of saying Calvinism.
Amen!
Interesting that you should bring the “love chapter” up. Love is not a descriptor of New Calvinism; arrogance is the overriding characteristic of the new reformers. The rest of Christendom doesn’t know them by their love; there is very little about the Great Commission in the New Calvinist movement. There is nothing loving about the ministers and ministries within the new reformation … we read about their failures to lead, feed and protect the sheep all the time. Theirs is another gospel which is not the Gospel at all. I, for one, will be glad when their movement stops moving and fades into obscurity.
One point about Grudem and C.J. Mahaney that I don’t think has been mentioned here is that Grudem’s 1st edition of this book spoke against Sovereign Grace’s earlier claim that some of their top leaders were “apostles.” Grudem actually had some strong words against someone making that claim.
Sovereign Grace (C.J. Mahaney use to be the group’s “pope’) did back down on their claim of leaders being apostles but still something to realize here.
Juulie Downs,
“The only Systematic Theology we need is 1 Cor 13.”
+++++++++++
…although “love…bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things” is a recipe for lots of personal life damage, and being an enabler of abuse, corruption, and crime.
my theology has boiled down to treating people the way I would want to be treated.
Yes, this has always puzzled me … that Al Mohler, with his great intellect (according to others), would be buds with “Apostle” Mahaney. According to Mrs. Mohler, CJ was a member of “Al’s little playgroup” (that always creeped me out). Mahaney flattered Mohler, saying things about Mohler’s superior smarts like he had a bigger stack of books than anyone else. These guys were/are just too close … I’ve often wondered how close.
To this bunch, Sovereign Grace = Calvinism = Gospel.
Steve240,
“One point about Grudem and C.J. Mahaney that I don’t think has been mentioned here is that Grudem’s 1st edition of this book spoke against Sovereign Grace’s earlier claim that some of their top leaders were “apostles.””
++++++++++++++
hmmmm…. i wonder what the catalyst was for CJ Mahaney’s decision to pay Wayne Grudem’s salary for half a year… what could it have been….?
1st edition 1994
a few years later Jeff Purswell was brought on by Mahaney. He’d been Grudem’s Teaching Assistant:
https://web.archive.org/web/20050903171544/http://www.sovereigngrace.com/sgo/v19no3/interview.html
JP: “in the summer of 1988, PDI planted a church in Atlanta where I lived, Julie and I were able to be involved in that; we’d been married about eight months earlier. I was a lay member of the leadership team for about our last three years in that church, until 1994 when we left so I could attend Trinity [Evangelical Divinity School, in Chicago]”
[he…”served as Dr. Grudem’s Teaching Assistant”]
JP: “I had no sense I was going to be returning to PDI. I really had no idea what we would do after Trinity. In fact, the Grudems, and Julie and I, and two other couples tried to start a church. We met in Wayne’s house for about five months on Saturday night and then had a public meeting just to kind of test the waters. It became evident after six months that God was not in it. So we said, ‘Well, let’s just all go to the same church and fellowship’. Then one day in probably January 1997, C.J. called me, totally out of the blue…”
The Trinity has never made sense, when I was Christian or in the time since. There are three co-gods that are really one. They are all referred to as seperate in the Gospels with Jesus clearly praying to the father and referring to the”father” as a separate entity from himself.
It may be that the Trinity was a way to kit bash Christianity into remaining a monotheistic faith.
For literalists like Grudem who place great (almost obsessive) importance on old testament obedience to law then the Trinity is hugely problematic. The old testament idea of leadership is very linear (top to bottom) God, priests, kings, men, and (in no particular order) cattle, women and children.
This is how he puts it all back into the patriarchal order.
Now comparing God & Jesus and the holy Spirit to the nuclear family is just creepy
Zeroing in on the accountability and oversight part, the Vatican part of the puzzle pieces that surround the world (which is a totally cool image and concept given history, no?) comes with a caption: “VATICAN — the moral guidance of His Holiness Pope Francis (remarkable capitalization of the pronoun) and his delegate, Cardinal Peter Turkson, the Holy See inspires the moral imperatives of all faiths”:
https://www.inclusivecapitalism.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/INCLUSIVE-CAPITALISM-COMMUNITY.jpg
I’ll restrict myself to one aspect of the “moral imperatives” part, specifically as it applies to Cardinal Peter Turkson (who is the clerically-garbed person next to Francis in the group photo on the organization’s About page. (Just noted the photo is overlaid with the words: “TRUSTED. FAIR. RESPONSIBLE. DYNAMIC. SUSTAINABLE.” Of course, the whole responsibility part and a transparency of collaborative process with accountability and oversight is conspicuous by its elusiveness on the site.)
Turns out that Turkson was in the news concerning of all things abuse scandals. Let’s see if moral imperatives were showcased in an inspiring way:
https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2019/10/vatican-cardinal-stirs-controversy-by-saying-its-time-to-exit-abuse-scandals/
“Turkson told attendees he glimpsed the impact of the scandals during the 2012 International Eucharistic Congress and the 2018 World Meeting of Families, both held in Dublin. He said that during the 2012 event, Archbishop Diarmuid Martin offered an apology for clerical abuse during basically every event he attended.
“”At one point, I thought it was too much. I thought he was making this huge cloud hang over everything,” Turkson said, explaining that he understands victims’ pain, but said, “Now we need to find a way of exiting this experience, [because] otherwise it will suffocate us.””
Others offered different takes on moral guidance:
“Several clerical abuse survivors took to Twitter to criticize the cardinal after the comments went public. Marie Collins, an abuse survivor from Ireland and a former member of the Vatican’s Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors who in 2017 resigned in frustration over perceived inaction, issued two separate tweets.
“If Turkson wants an exit strategy, Collins wrote, “He should recommend the Church institute a transparent process of accountability for negligent/corrupt bishops, deal with the huge backlog of abuse cases lingering in the CDF, put in place universal mandatory reporting to civil authorities…stop fighting the extension of statutes of limitations, put in place strong normative child safeguarding policies in every country, stop the use of pontifical secret in abuse trials and implement REAL zero tolerance in all cases of a guilty perpetrator.” And this, she said, is “just for a start.””
“Colm O’Gorman, an Irish clerical abuse survivor who is now Dublin Executive Director of Amnesty International and founder of the One in Four organization, also took to Twitter to convey his dismay. “Cardinal Turkson is a prime example of why the institutional church will likely never recover from the collapse caused by its cover up of the rape and abuse of countless child [sic] and vulnerable adults,” O’Gorman wrote. “They don’t get it, because they won’t. They do not care.””
“Mark Stephan Murray, who claims to have been repeatedly sexually abused by a Comboni missionary priest in a seminary in Mirfield, Yorkshire, in the 1970s, also sent a tweet about Turkson’s comment, asking, “How can the Cardinal apologize too much? Lives & families were destroyed by the abuse and the systemic cover up of the abuse by many in the Church.””
“As of press time, neither Turkson nor Martin had commented on the flap over Turkson’s comments.” Perhaps it wasn’t seen as a moral imperative to do much of anything but circle the wagons and go into radio silence — coincidentally, as so many coverups have had as hallmarks…
Priceless. Thanks much.
Yep, and they have their own club.
https://cbmw.org/
You are correct Max. Even after Grudem and Ware were shown to be quite unorthodox in their construct of the Trinity by several scholars, Kevin Giles being my favorite, they persist in their denigration of the Trinity.
“The redefined and reworded doctrine of the eternal subordination of the Son in role and authority has thus become for some evangelicals the bastion that holds back the attacking and mistaken egalitarians. Virtually every evangelical theologian who has written in support of the eternal subordination of the Son in function and authority is committed to the permanent subordination of women in the church and the home. Because the subordination of women and the subordination of the Son are inextricably united in the minds of those with whom I am debating, getting them to consider honestly and openly what they are saying on the Trinity is almost impossible. Too much for them is at stake. Some of them have said to me quite openly, “We will never give way on the Trinity, because this would be the first step in giving way on our case for the subordination of women.” Professor Wayne Grudem is firmly of this opinion. He says “the most decisive factor” in the case for the permanent subordination of women is “a proper understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity,” by which he means understanding the Trinity as hierarchically ordered so that the Son is bound to obey the Father. Nothing is more important “in the whole universe,” he says, than maintaining “the equality of being together with authority and submission to authority” in the relationship between the Father and the Son in the immanent Trinity.”
Giles, Kevin N.. Jesus and the Father: Modern Evangelicals Reinvent the Doctrine of the Trinity (p. 42). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.
“For those who until this point have supported the eternal subordination of the Son, there are three options that are equally difficult for them.
1. The first option is to go on arguing that the Bible and historical orthodoxy supports the eternal subordination of the Son of God in function and authority. I am sure many will embrace this option because for them the stakes are so high. To admit that the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity gives no support at all — if anything it challenges the belief that women are permanently subordinated to men — is not a possibility. To give way on this point would be to weaken their whole case for the permanent subordination of women, which for them is the most important Christian truth to be upheld in this age. This response demands special pleading, like arguments for a flat earth or a world created about 7000 years ago. The compelling case against their position, such as I have given, has to be summarily dismissed. To be quite specific it demands the rejection of the Athanasian Creed, which unambiguously affirms the eternal coequality of the eternally differentiated divine persons. This first option allows those who take it to continue to believe in an eternally subordinated Son and permanently subordinated women.
2. The second alternative is to admit that basing the permanent subordination of women on a doctrine of an eternally subordinated Son has been a bad mistake. The doctrine of the Trinity should be construed solely by reference to the Bible and how the Bible has been understood across the centuries. The doctrine of the Trinity and the doctrine of man-woman relations are two separate doctrines that need to be studied independently. The primary doctrine of the Christian religion, the doctrine of God, should be studied first, and only then the secondary if not tertiary doctrine of how men and women should relate in the home and the church be studied. The first should inform the second but not determine what is believed; the second in no way should determine the first. This position allows one to embrace historical orthodoxy by affirming a coequal Trinity without reservations and continue to believe that women are permanently subordinated to men in the home and the church — this is God’s ideal for the man-woman relationship.
3. The third option is to accept that the Bible, and how the Bible has been read by the best of theologians of the past and by most theologians today, allows for no eternal subordination in the Trinity. The Christian doctrine of God speaks of a triune God who is differentiated as Father, Son, and Spirit, yet is one in being and authority in a bond of love and self-giving. This understanding of God analogically reflects the ideal for all human relationships. It suggests that permanently subordinating a race, socioeconomic group, or sex is not pleasing to God. The subordinating of any person is a reflection of the realities of a fallen world, not God’s ideal. This response demands believing that it is quite erroneous to eternally subordinate God the Son to God the Father and to permanently subordinate women to men. The first idea demeans the Son of God and the second demeans women. This response is the one I hope the readers of this book will embrace. This is my prayer.”
Giles, Kevin N.. Jesus and the Father: Modern Evangelicals Reinvent the Doctrine of the Trinity (p. 312). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.
Haha! Zach is to White as Bob is to Mahaney.
Lowlandseer,
I like it.
And Purswell has been riding the gravy train ever since!
Can the finite ever comprehend the infinite? I think not.
Spoken like a true authoritarian! In Grudem’s perfect universe, only he would rule. In Christ, “the equality of being together” means no distinction between race, class or gender. I suppose at this point, Grudem will never discover that truth; he’s gone his own way.
Are you referring to the implication of “PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT!” between Father and Son?
(Like a lot of the old gods?)
i.e. “There is no ‘Christ’, there is only CALVIN.”
I always viewed that as a cover for something else.
Like the “Mine’s Bigger Than Yours!” regarding what hangs between their legs.
Yet another form of One-Upmanship and Smackdown.
Just like the Jehovah’s Witnesses created their version of the Bible to support their theology.
And if you’ve read this blog for any length of time, you should know that “Grace” in the name of a ministry is the same as “People’s Democratic” in the official name of a Third World country.
It is difficult to get more pretentious than naming your clique “The People of Destiny”.
Especially when the guy doing the naming also titles himself “Head Apostle”.
No, I’m trying to avoid being hospitalized in the midst of a pandemic.
Free Will + Predestination = Paradox.
And these Mighty Theologians are too dumb to accept that paradoxes exist.
Admitting the paradox would disrupt their Perfect Airtight System!
The average New Cal (even pastors) don’t really understand their own theology. They make a big pretense of it, but then they just quote Grudem or Piper by rote when cornered. And they are trained to say that people who don’t agree “can’t understand” (because they must not be elect and lack the Holy Spirit). Honest discussions with them just go around in circles and are pointless. I have noticed some have adopted the other International Church of Christ tactic of telling people to go have a private (brainwashing) meeting with their pastor over anything that gets too uncomfortable.
All things cults do…
I agree. I’m thinking out loud with a couple of thoughts.
1) If we could fully understand God in a way that makes perfect sense, would it be more or less satisfying than what we have now? I suspect we would just shift the complaint to say we cannot believe in a god who has no mystery.
2) Having a stictly monotheistic view of God creates at least as many problems as it solves. In the case of Islam, the Quran pretty much functionally takes the place of Jesus in Christianity. For example, the question of whether the Quran is created or eternal is very much like the Arian controversy in Christianity. It used to be a very dangerous argument to get into for Muslims. Another problem they have with not associating anything with God is that it makes God completely unknowable. All they can know is his will as revealed in the Quran. I’ve spent more than a little time investigating Islam and I found it has more logical difficulties than Trinitarian Christianity. But I suppose other people will have a different experience.
I suspect that no one really understands it, not even people who claim to understand it, for if it were truly understandable there would not be so many different versions of it. It could be that one has to be a Scottsman to be a true Calvinist. (Where is Nick when we need him?)
The ESV is just a worked over 1971 Revised Standard Version for which they got a license. Don’t even THINK that Wayne Grudem or anyone else involved did any original work on the ESV, except to shove in their pet doctrines.
One thing you should always check when new heavyweight titles like these get released is to see what ancillary titles are also being introduced. So, for the second edition of Grudem’s Systematic Theology, we not only have a workbook, but also video lectures, which will set you back over $115 at list price.
Perhaps, like the first edition, the second edition may eventually have these titles:
* Systematic Theology Laminated Study Sheet
* Course Guide for Systematic Theology
* Systematic Theology Audio Lectures.
And I’m sure there will be other goodies in keeping with the new world. Systematic Theology TikToks, anyone?
Remember, love is not one of the Nine Marks of a Healthy Church.
So much for “They will know you are my disciples by the love you have one for another.” (Muslin Paraphrase from the top of my head.)
Usually with ‘what’s his name’ converting to fundamental atheism.
Same here, but I would describe it as not doing the kinds of things to other people that I wouldn’t want done to me.
Should be at the top of the list for every church! Not even on the radar in New Calvinism. If you bring it up, they will deny that, of course. But their method and message have already revealed who they are.
An off-the-shelf ESV is fairly harmless, much like the NIV. But the ESV Study Bible is full of Calvinist commentary … indoctrination is the goal, not preaching/teaching the Gospel.
A typical cult characteristic.
“God’s Spirit specifically tells us that in later days there will be men who abandon the true faith and allow themselves to be spiritually seduced … teachings given by men who are lying hypocrites, whose consciences are as dead as seared flesh.” (1 Timothy 4:2 Phillips)
I looked him up. It is likely my grandparents knew him (and he certainly would have known of them) since he was the minister for 23 years of the Baptist chapel in their village (my grandparents weren’t Baptist but they were heavily involved in the community and quite ecumenical in who they tried to pull in to help in various causes).
Ruth Magnusson Davis has just published the 2nd book on the Matthew Bible “The Story of the Matthew Bible part 2. The Scriptures Then and Now. A well researched 530 pages book. Soon after the released of the only English Bible bought with blood (Tyndale burned at Antwerp and Rodgers, the first victim of Mary), the puritans in Geneva took it and changed it, “darkened it” as they said. 23 years later it was in England. Who were behind the Geneva Bible (you did not know that they did not translate it from the Hebrew did you?) Wittingham, Calvin and Beza or de Bèze in French (they are others of course).
As a lawyer and a gramatical nerd, Ruth explains us so much about the differences in grammar or tenses in English and Hebrew. The dramatical changes made in the Bible. Coverdale who translate the whole Bible but whose work was taken to complete the work of Tyndale, translate it so that you can understand all the prophets clearly, in proper English. Not Gibberish !
At https://baruchhousepublishing.com/ Ruth has articles and some chapters of the book. She publishes also on Academia Edu.
The October New Testament (Tyndale) is on Bible Gateway but without the notes. NMB
As you will see, reading along the book, the New Calvinist are the sons of their fathers !
I have been trying to figure out where they may have smuggled in their New Calvinism into the ESV. I liked that the RSV and NRSV were the work of ecumenical groups of scholars – not just one church or one person. The fact that the ESV is popping up everywhere “conservative” makes me wonder.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
The very churches will say Jesus is Beelzebul.
Q: what’s a good name for the New Evangelisation Regulator? A: Off-message.
Q: what’s a good name for the Transcendental Meditation Regulator? A: Om-budsman.
That partially answers my question about the ESV. I don’t like that what sounds like a generic study Bible is really the product of one denomination or movement, unless the reader is explicitly told that. I get that a study Bible might have a more “conservative” or “liberal” spin to it.
And look how (or don’t look how) they are all trapped – by the playground grooming fostered by mutant commerce – into that kind of film making.
Rolf Harris, performing Jake With The Extra Leg, was supposed to amuse us kids (on the telly) (but it struck me as illogical).
Lowlandseer, In the context of the Virgo-P J Smyth affair, sold as a church plant to cloak brutality, and the basis of this theology (see below), and specific talk of “plants” I was told, the entire thing is deep and ominous. I’ve always seen Bill Johnson and John Macarthur (for example) as one and the same: rationing those gifts that the ascending Jesus distributed. Virgo is greatly more po-faced than Johnson but the ethos in all three is that no-one exercises “christian” life other than under the dictatorship of “elders”. (It was Selwyn Hughes and Arthur Wallis that introduced the delusion that “elders” have to monopolise the five-fold. Wallis is looked up to by many Virgoites, while Hughes also popularised getting tactile at church entrances and during “counselling”.)
I totally agree, but want to point out that their emphasis is on your agreement with them and really not on the point of theology. Even though we all know they even disagree with one another, they train people to toe the line this way, that any disagreement (particularly with someone calling themselves a pastor or elder) is an automatic disqualification for being “Christian”. Or as Michael in UK just said, “the ethos in all three is that no-one exercises “christian” life other than under the dictatorship of “elders”.
I have seen very little evidence that leaders, elders, and pastors have to prove their character in New Calvinist settings. I haven’t really seen any evidence that they care about character much at all so long, but they care a lot on whether you do as your told and don’t question anything.
I’ve seen people go from rational, thinking, intelligent beings to autobots who just quote the same things over again, which to me is evidence of extreme brainwashing (and lack of the Holy Spirit, contrary to their own claims). I believe that in psychology, this tactic is used in cults so people can no longer distinguish between what is real and what isn’t, and they have to depend on the leader to tell them what to do.
IMO, that describes the young, restless and reformed in a nutshell. They thrive on Piper Points, Mohler Moments, Mahaney Malarkey, Dever Drivel, etc. Critical thinking skills are washed away with NeoCal indoctrination; they have been deceived and work to deceive others. We are losing a generation in the American church which know the true Gospel and are engaged in the Great Commission. Spiritual madness!!
Headless Unicorn Guy,
As an academic, all I can say is referring to their “stack of books” and implying that means they are “smart” is bizarre..
but the, bizarre behavior/comments from this crowd is not new…
The ESV Study Bible is the bad-boy version carried by hardcore Calvinistas. You don’t need the Holy Spirit to teach you as you read it; each page is loaded with Calvinist commentaries to make sure you get the ‘right’ interpretation. Grudem and Packer were on the editorial committee … Piper, Mohler, and Dever endorsed it … it doesn’t get any more hardcore Calvinist than that! It was published by Crossway, the publisher of all things Calvinist.
The ESV Study Bible was published at the beginning of the New Calvinist movement. Leaders of the movement wanted to make sure the young, restless and reformed knew what to believe. Every NeoCal worth their salt carries the ESV, even though they know little about being salt and light.
I’ve also seen your further astute comments about the ESV.
It’s all about loyalty, and which translation* contains the Truth. As a teen I read the KJV in the morning and at night, and carried it to church. I thought our church’s RSV was okay, but there was something about the KJV that led me to overlook the limitations and biases of its authors. My edition even had the old anti-Catholic preface, but that did not trouble me. To me the KJV was Pure.
Now I prefer the NRSV because I believe it has the least biased scholarship. But I do check other translations and commentaries. The amount of bias out there is absolutely stunning.
*Should be “interpretation” imho.
Update, if anyone cares. My friend responded to my plea to stop going down the road to heresy with Universalism. His response: he sent me a link to his favorite heretic David Bentley Hart promoting Origen who was denounced as a heretic by a church council in the 6th century. We just love our narcissists telling us what we want to hear. Do we not? I just share this to show there is a bigger problem in the church then just Grudem. There are thousands of theologians promoting what is nothing more than popular heresies to those with itching ears. Those itching ears are just lethal as so much of truth is painfully hard to swallow.
Hi all
The noticeably absent Dee is somewhat back in the saddle. I brought my mom home on Friday and have gotten her settled in her independent elderly complex with some extra aid help. The doctors were incredible and discovered that she had barely detectable heart failure. They diureses her so much she was like a raisin. But miracle or miracles, her pain decreased by 90% which had prevented her from walking. Today she walked down to the hairdresser in the complex! She has been given some more time, enjoyable time, to live.
My kitchen is still torn up and we are living out of our family room and my family will be here for Christmas. In the midst of this I’ve learned my daughter in Boston will be the first one to get it at her hospital and amongst the first in the country. She often works in the COVID room. My husband who will be covering cardiology in the ER in 4 weeks has been notified he will get it in 4-6 weeks. I am utterly thankful since I worryabout them all the time. I think my daughter will try to get me a pic of her getting the vaccine.
Lots of stories out there. ‘Ill do my best to get them all up before Christmas.Todd and I are working together on an untold and deeply disturbing story coming out of Sovereign Grace. Todd’s post here was an opening salvo aimed at the gospel boys who continue to support Mahaney in spite of Mohler’s declarations to the contrary. The SBC, TGC and BFFs should be ashamed. We’ll do out best to describe why they should hang their heads.
Exactly. There is no doubt that the ESV was crafted to promote reformed theology, rather than an unbiased translation of truth. It was designed to be the sword of choice for the New Calvinist movement. It’s packed with aberrations of Scripture to fit their theology and indoctrinate young minds.
I have more than a dozen Bible translations/interpretations in my library, with an equal number of commentaries. None of them have a corner on the Truth. I have a battle-worn KJV Thompson Chain Reference Bible with 40+ years of my marginal notes, but frequently refer to other versions on certain passages. I like the J.B. Phillips translation of the New Testament, and the clarity offered in the Amplified translation. I even have an ESV on my shelf, but feel slimy when I pick it up. However, as I noted earlier, the ESV student Bible is fairly harmless … it’s the ESV Study Bible which is the bad-boy full of indoctrination.
Maybe get one that isn’t bound in okra?
😉
dee,
Bless you, bless you, bless you, bless you all. <3
I too have a leather bound ESV translation (Crossway 2003) on my shelf.
Nowhere, let me repeat, nowhere is there a hint of reformed thought, commentary, or ideological indoctrination. It’s well laid out, easy to read, and well cross-referenced.
The Neocals must have come up with their own versions (‘study’ editions etc.) on their own and then persuaded various publishers to put them out there.
Dee, thanks for the update. Please take care of what you need to at this time
I have a copy of the ESV somewhere in one of my stacks of books. It’s an off-the-shelf version which I got mainly because my church switched from RSV to ESV some years back. I currently have copies of the NASB, NIV, NKJV and RSV by my bed.
Friend,
singleman,
Thank you.
Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology book is the perfect height to stand my 30 year old plastic light up Santa in the window. Some neighborhood kids call my house the *Santa House.* Somehow, that seems appropriate.
I’m so glad!
I threw mine in the dumpster outside my apartment in Wake Forest before I left…
I dunno why it quoted me instead of dee…
Frences,
In the introduction to my 1599 Geneva Bible, it is clearly stated that the authors/editors based the translation on the “most recently collected Greek and Hebrew manuscripts” and “drew upon painstaking translations from the original languages: Theodore Beza’s work and other continental translations, such as Luther’s” (page xxiv). And in comparing it with my copies of Tyndale’s New Testament and partial Old Testament, I don’t see where the Genevan bad boys changed it. In fact, Tyndale’s annotations are as refreshing as those of Francis Junius’ notes and Beza’s summary of doctrines.
And I would question the validity of any work where an assertion is made about authorship without evidence as your author does, for example, when asking who wrote the dedication to Elizabeth 1 in the 1560 edition of the Geneva Bible.
It might not be as bad as you think. The Bible supports three mutually contradictory views on the duration of hell. It looks like Origen was condemned (although there is some dispute about that) for for his view on pre-existence of souls rather than universalism. Gregory of Nyssa was very orthodox and yet it appears that he believed in the eventual salvation of everyone, which was not very different from Origen. I think an important question for us to ask is why would we not hope for the eventual salvation of all?
I have heard of DBH but have not read or heard anything by him. A good source for understanding another view on Christian Universalism is Robin Parry. He makes some very good points that are worth considering.
Yeah, all translations say something like that to appear credible.
The ESV preface says “The ESV has been carefully weighed against the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, to ensure the fullest accuracy and clarity and to avoid under-translating or overlooking any nuance of the original text.”
Wow! Makes me want to toss out the under-translated and overlooked nuances of the other 12 translations in my library! Not!
The best use of the book that I have heard of! I found one at a yard sale for 25-cents.
I’m starting to see various Piper books at area garage sales … that’s a great sign that the movement may be fizzling out.
Did your church also switch pastors at the same time?
Agreed. As noted before, it’s Crossway’s “ESV Study Bible” which was published to indoctrinate. The regular ESV is harmless enough; comparable to the popular NIV.
Ishy! That could have started a dumpster fire! 🙂
It’s one of the reasons I left my last church. It just got too difficult always being wrong.
If anybody is looking for a last-minute gift, I recommend this vendor who sells tiny dumpsters, trash trucks, etc. I have ordered one for each of my dear ones, and plan to fill them with pictures of flames, in honor of our Glorious Year.
https://wastepromotionalproducts.com/collections/frontpage/products/curotto-cans
I don’t actually think this is off topic… 😉
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Perhaps my memory fails, but I had the impression that you had seen DBH’s “God, Creation, and Evil” and were favorably impressed with it. It’s an argument about the implications of the consensus view of individual eschatology for the coherence/intelligibility of theological language.
https://journal.radicalorthodoxy.org/index.php/ROTPP/article/view/135
(apparently no longer available as and
individual article in free full text but the issue in which it appears is available in pdf form
https://journal.radicalorthodoxy.org/index.php/ROTPP/issue/view/6
)
I have the impression that DBH is widely respected, but also to many highly controversial, both inside and outside EO circles.
I have read that the Scofield notes, that have in the past been included in bibles (I suppose principally in KJV but perhaps others) and still are available, were influential in the promotion of Dispensational theology. I’m guessing that Scofield Study bibles are still regarded highly among IFBs.
If the different flavors of theology are competing for adherents, and I guess there’s some evidence that they are, the borrowing of effective tactics from one another is unsurprising.
—-
I worry a little that there might be a kind of “genetic algorithm” at work in the sense that the flavor of theology that grows faster than others and becomes dominant does so not because of its intrinsic correspondence to Truth, but because it is more effective than its peers at self-propagation. The end state of such a process might be grotesque.
Cancer is unchecked cell growth.
dee,
I just love this good news about your mom, Dee. Also glad to hear your husband and daughter will get the vaccine soon. These are wonderful answers to prayer.
LOL! I’m giving everyone chocolate. I figure they need it. I’d give wine, but most of them already have some…
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Universalism has already been condemned over 14 centuries ago and there is nothing new under the sun as far as people writing suggesting it is valid. I just dove deep and wrote up a response about 18 pages long to the problems with it for my friend. This challenge caused me to think deeply about what I believe and why. This was new with this topic. I came to the conclusion that name dropping sources that are post-biblical offers nothing new. In my conclusion I found the council did the right thing all those centuries ago. Hart is quoting Origen so it is relevant and someone who is a heretic in any one area should not be relied on period as a source for anyone. Is this not what the Grudem controversy here is all about?
And by the way, the wiki on Hart that you can look at yourself describes his communications as “pyrotechnic.” I think we can all agree that is not Christian Orthopraxy and many here are condemning Grudem for being arrogant and rude. They are two peas in the opposite ends of a pod.
Which happens to be New Calvinism currently. The new reformers have been very effective spreading their gospel through stealth and deception, rather than preaching and teaching Truth. They have been masters of social media to plant and propagate their aberrant belief and practice in young minds. Without cyberspace, there would be no New Calvinist movement.
Sorry Todd!
No. My church switched pastors last year due to our longtime senior pastor’s retirement. I’m not entirely sure what prompted the change of the pew bibles, but there was no major theological shift at the time that I can remember.
Reference the ESV, I do not believe it’s just the study bible that has problems. Here is an article that explains the issues.
Three Unmistakable Examples of Gender Politics in the New ESV Translation
by Carolyn Custis James
September 13, 2016
https://www.missioalliance.org/three-unmistakable-examples-of-gender-politics-in-the-new-esv-translation/
The article I referenced above had a link to the verses Grudem & his colleagues changed in the 2016 version. The link is no longer active, but this link takes you to the page on the Wayback Machine.
https://web.archive.org/web/20160918065056/http://www.esv.org:80/about/pt-changes/
Lowlandseer,
I’m going on recent developments among associates of Terry’s (though I found Terry’s book vague). Many of the members of that church I found really good and nice, it was one of the many situations I’ve seen of not talking the walk, leaving leaders exposed to pressures because of not having mental defences.
St Mary’s Twickenham and Newman, Bartley Green have attained university rank, presumably to get round the problem mentioned here. St Mary’s got its degrees from the predominantly technological Surrey University at one time. Both were (I think) former teacher training establishments that broke out from a solely vocational mould.
The standard ESV distorts an occasional text in a verse, while the study bible distorts the context of entire passages through commentaries.
Max,
Humans are beings for turning contingency (what we haven’t done yet) into necessity (what we did and shan’t be undoing). Huw Price has a (slightly) different way of putting it, answering Hawking and Penrose.
This is exactly what I thought until a few years ago. Now I am less sure one way or the other, but I don’t think it is the heresy I once did. I don’t know anything about DBH other than that he writes and speaks about this topic. Robin Parry is very polite, thoughtful, and non-pushy. It had been quite a while since I checked in with what he is currently thinking, so I looked on YouTube today and found some recent stuff from him. I listened to this one while walking my dog this afternoon:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TofvLLm_LqI
He specifically addresses the issue of this being addressed at the 6th ecumical council.
He also stresses that there are many different kinds of univeralism, with some versions being more problematic than others. If you have a friend working through this it could be good for you to learn something about it from other sources. I am not at all saying you need to believe in it. But I do think it is wise to bettere understand exactly what you are not believing in. Parry presents a very well thought out argument that I find difficult to dismiss.
It had to have been someone else. The only reason I know about him is because I heard Brad Jersak talk about him.
Put a criminal* at the top, in power, and it’s no surprise that he populates his underling positions with fellow criminals*. – comments from @ZevShalev on the Friday Aftershow, narativ.org.
*substitute whatever identity at the top of the org. Think about it. Zev has a point here.
Followed by another apropos comment by @LincolnsBible, same Aftershow: A problem with the Evangelicals is that they don’t read/know the Bible as they fall in line behind their leaders (having no idea what they really are following).
https://youtu.be/rSqcxFGFVas
With hideouts all over the U.S., why did Mahaney flee to Louisville from the SGC scandal? His bud Mohler was there. Why does Mahaney remain in Louisville? His bud Mohler is there. Why/how did Mahaney’s church quietly become a member of SBC? Perhaps it had something to do with SBC’s man of the hour … Mohler. Why hasn’t SBC rebuked Mahaney for his “questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse”* while at SGC? Why haven’t they rebuked Mohler for affiliating with Mahaney?
Drafters of the following SBC resolution “On Sexual Abuse of Children” had Mohler and Mahaney in mind, although they were not named:
* “We encourage all denominational leaders and employees of the Southern Baptist Convention to utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse”
https://www.sbc.net/resource-library/resolutions/on-sexual-abuse-of-children/
And if he bothered to explain how this differs from good old-fashioned polytheism.
My friend is not working through it. He has jumped in both barrels blasting. And I do not need to be better informed about what has been a heresy throughout most of church history! I direct you to NT Wright which is someone this same friend of mine directed me towards. It is still a heresy as the old council has never been overturned. You keep treating me like I have not looked into this thing. Just look at NT: https://unsettledchristianity.com/n-t-wright-on-biblical-universalism/
And the issue has never been about what happens in hell, a place I have experienced and remains the most real place I have ever been, but about what happens after hell. Hell is temporary. Nowhere does the scriptures state that the Lake of Fire is also temporary. And that is a big problem to surmount…
Jesus has been my Pastor since being delivered out of an abusive baptist church, where the pastor man hits on his vulnerable counselee women who are at a low point in their lives. He preached from his fake pulpit, the Jezebel spirit is alive and well within the fake church system, all the while he pursued and married woman who visited his office in search of healing.
I am convinced the so called “jezebel spirit” lives and reigns within the visible male dominated leadership religious system whose sins are legion with regards to sex, sex, and more elicit sex. One way to shut down logical and righteous dissent with regards to perversion within church systems, is to label those who see the truth as written on the walls, as “jezebels.”
I have no respect nor admiration for the baptist or assembly of god churches, for they love their sexual sins and protecting the religious predators that prey on the innocent sheep.
The rapist is protected and prayed for, while the victim is labeled a “slut” and deserving of being raped because she has engaged in sexual acts before her violent rape/attack.
It is no wonder, Jesus commanded us to come out of the harlot religious system, for “sex” is on the minds of the depraved mentality, which unfortunately is alive and well within the ranks of the wolverine religious systems.
Was Giles the first to observe outright tampering with the Trinity?
And what’s worse, it was all done to try and confirm and legitimize a pecking order for humans based solely on plumbing received at birth.
*shrug* Heretic here! After hearing a sermon about getting the reality of hell into our hearts by Bert Waggoner (who later became head of the Vineyard Churches USA) in 1989, and thinking about it for a number of years, I decided I’d rather go to hell than believe in a god whose ultimate solution is to torture those who failed to make the “right” choice in life. Especially when the “right choice” is so not very clear at all even among the churches. And I especially believe this after going through the last few weeks of my dad’s life. He didn’t know who he was, he thought he was a nine-year-old kid living in rural Oklahoma and wanting to go to Tulsa.
I believe God is far more gracious than we give him credit for.
Universalism was condemned by men who didn’t go through a 20th Century where Jews died in Hitler’s gas chambers only to, if you believe these oh so very orthodox (small o) men, go to hell. You know, that’s just simply untenable and makes God into a monster. May I suggest that you do many hours of contemplation on this before you just toss out Universalism as a heresy. God knows I have!
(Dee feel free to delete if this is off-topic.)
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
I’m another universalist (depending on the definition), as I believe the hell we were taught to fear comes from medieval imagination and teaching. That notion of hell mainly comes in handy for threatening people. I would rather believe in a God of love, mercy, and a form of justice that I can recognize with my puny human mind.
My belief is also informed by the Holocaust. Christians worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That God still honors His own covenant with His Chosen People. Christians have no exclusive claim on God.
I should note that the vaccine has two jabs (21 or 28 days apart depending on the vaccine) to reach expected effectiveness (about 95%) though even one jab (after a couple of weeks for it to take) apparently gives some protection. Our county should be receiving the first shipment on Tuesday which will be going to some health care workers and long term care workers (we don’t have enough to jab all of them or even a quarter of the acute care workers in the first shipment). Our hospitals are starting to get overwhelmed (local patients mostly but some almost certainly have patients from more rural parts of the state). I’m hoping that people will keep following distancing/masking/ventilation regs to cut the spread and limit the chance that the vulnerable will get it until they can be vaccinated.
Muff Potter,
Holy Trinity is about room for the other other. Holy Spirit power for living is given us to potentise the gift of the other other. Gifts differing, distributed = grace abounding = mercy multiplied. Ascending Jesus did not delegate elders to ration these.
Bad body theology allows only nuclear families. As I live as a family of one, I am nuclear-free. I have no extended household nor (temporarily) contact persons (in case I am found on the floor). This enables me to see relating as what it is: not to be taken for granted. Common grace and justice outside the church (which the system will clamp down on); Providence; prayer; these are not to be taken for granted.
Mention of gifts is not supposed to connote miracle touting. Let Jesus (i.e Holy Spirit in the flesh) perform what works in circumstances / styles He may. Discernment should be made principle once more.
Holding others better than ourselves is supposed to be in the context of loving them AS ourselves.
If you are happy with your certainty it would be beast for you to continue to color within the lines you have drawn for yourself. Going outside of those lines will cause discomfort.
In addition, it’s not clear that universalism was actually condemned in the 6th ecumenical council. The condemnation comes from an appendix that probably was added on later and not actually addressed in the council itself.
Good observation. No ecumenical council ever addressed the nature and duration of hell, which means the only heretical position on hell is to deny it entirely. Here is a short explanation of the EO view of hell, which is very old:
https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/morningoffering/2017/08/heaven-and-hell/
This view allows for the possibility of repentence even after death, but views are divided over whether that is possible or likely.
Folks running into universalism problems (subject to the various ideas of respective merit) who haven’t been using spatial thinking nor using logic and quasi-indexicality on these matters. We were mostly taught that Bible mentions of purgatory were of hell; and that being saved is the same as entering the Kingdom of God. Both the latter will have something (in different ways) to do with the survival of the integrity of our faculties. The system of the world doesn’t want people to have their faculties. The televangelists and megapastors, who “take away from this book”, have given the cue.
In today’s church culture of self-help, what-about-me, and sway-to-the-music, I know very few 21st century Christians who walk what they talk in that regard. Love of that sort is in short supply in many churches. “You will know them by their love” congregations are tough to find, let alone a pastor who would be described that way. If you find a church like that, stay there! Heck, most of them won’t even talk to you when you walk in.
First, I am sorry for your suffering. You have endured a lot.
A great many Christians believe that Hell is eternal; that is how they threaten their children and dehumanize their neighbors and people around the world. Regarding the lake of fire, my understanding is that it is mainly mentioned in Revelation. A great many Christians do not believe that Revelation is factual/literal.
We are all free to believe as we wish. The greatest scholars in the world disagree. I deeply respect rigorous Biblical scholarship (which is in rather short supply), but I also believe that we can live an authentic Christian life on basic principles of mercy, justice, and love. If God sends me to the lake of fire for that, God was not worth worshiping.
You do know that Al Mohler issued a statement against C.J. Mahaney:
https://baptistnews.com/article/al-mohler-says-he-was-wrong-about-c-j-mahaney/#.X9d_TeaSmUk
I am sure Mahaney was shocked when Mohler insisted on truth vs. covering for Mahaney but then again maybe Mohler was forced some way to do what he did. Hopefully Mohler’s actions were based on integrity but who knows. By “integrity” I mean trying to practice the principles and apply them to all that are taught in the bible that leaders like him claim to believe. Sadly their actions seem to show they really don’t believe these or by favoritism in not applying to other leaders they associate seem to show they really don’t.
Yes, I know … but what else could he do when things started heating up? He probably got Mahaney’s OK to say “I was wrong”, but didn’t really mean it. I suspect they are still buds … those T4G guys – the “Fab Four” (Mohler, Mahaney, Dever, Duncan) – probably signed a blood pact to stick together to the bitter end. The incredible stealth and deception within the New Calvinist movement should have taught us all by now not to trust any of these bad-boys … and particularly Mohler!
Integrity?! Mohler?!! The man responsible for wrenching a whole denomination away from a people who don’t want his theology? Millions of Southern Baptists are non-Calvinist and desire to stay there, IMO … but the powers-that-be (Mohler & the Mohlerites) have another plan for them.
Max,
Hi Max
As it happened, last night I was reading a Dutch theologian from the next generation and he referenced the textual sources of the Geneva version so I don’t have any reason to doubt their authenticity. On a similar note, my Thompson Chain Reference NIV has a lengthy introduction explaining how they went about assembling the text. So I don’t see what the problem is, other than you’re allergic reaction to anything Genevan, the remedy for which is, of course, a spoonful of Calvinism every night before bedtime. And tempting as it is to get into a “I’ve got more Bibles than you” competition, I won’t. Lol! Best wishes.
Absolutely!
dee,
So happy for all your good news. May your family have a wonderful year with many meals prepared in your soon to be lovely kitchen!
Max,
Or we could just go with the traditional spoonful of sugar, as prescribed by the renowned theologian Julie Andrews.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L4qauTiCY4&ab_channel=JeanBelmondo
Friend,
Great comment!
And I concur.
Which now I can’t hear the tune w/o hearing Randy Rainbow’s ‘Just a Spoonful of Clorox’ version. Kind of like Weird Al’s songs, now you can’t remember the original version!
I love Geneva! And, whether you believe it or not, I don’t really have a problem with classical Calvinism. As a Southern Baptist, I worshiped alongside a few “Old” Calvinists (although SBC’s millions were non-Calvinist). While I did not agree with their theology, I found them civil in their discourse and respectful of other expressions of faith. My gripe is with the “New” Calvinists who are out and about to “reform” the SBC and other denominations in America. They are arrogant, aggressive and militant. They are certainly passionate about their movement, but it is a misplaced passion when it manifests itself through stealth and deception. In regard to the ESV, this same bunch could be carrying KJVs for all I care … but their mean-spirited behavior would still be repulsive to me.
I’m afraid it would take more than a spoonful of sugar to swallow what Grudem serves up … I’m not even sure a 5 pound bag would help me digest his theological aberrations!
P.S., I would rather look at Julie Andrews than Wayne Grudem anyday 🙂
My final comment on this particular post is about the demonic assault on the Fear of the Lord. This phrase occurs many times in both old and new T’s. It is not a suggestion when used but an order to those who are wise. To take the consequences of what we do lightly is foolish beyond foolish as Christians who do not really believe in a Judgement Seat at the end of this long test life. As a part of it there are many heresies being promoted both from the right and left wings of what calls itself a church.
So you can find Grudem with his Eternal Subordination of the Son which is brand new on the right and you can find Hart on the left with a very old heresy of Universalism. Yet the men getting famous and profiting off of those book sales have no fear of promoting what is fundamentally evil to other men. There is no fear of the Lord in this. Both of these tweak the nature of who God is and what Jesus set out to do with his birth, death and resurrection. If Universalism is true then Jesus died in vain because nothing we do here is permanent and nothing Jesus did is either. If Subordination is true then Jesus died so that men can dominate women for the rest of eternity. Yet there is no gender in the next life and no plain explanation in the the last three chapters of our Bible regarding any kind of change at all for those in the Lake of Fire. It just states they go there and will never enter the New Jerusalem. People arguing over heaven and hell are just being ignorant. The future we all face is genderless and either that Lake or the New Jerusalem with new bodies on a new earth.
Max,
And in this I agree with you 100%. I’ve said it before, I think we would get on quite well. All the best Max.
That’s because “classical Calvinism” has had five centuries to settle down and debug itself.
The “New Calvinists” are the Taliban & ISIS of Calvinism, turning time back to the 1.0 Beta release “As it was in the Days of the Prophet” and running with it as far as they can.
And like that other Fab Four in the early Sixties, they have a fanbase of screaming maniacs.
Jesus did teach quite memorably about how to live our mortal lives. The parable of the joy of finding a lost coin after an anxious search comes to mind, along with the one about generosity to laborers who arrive near the end of the day. The one about the lamps does have a threat of punishment, but it emphasizes prudence and steadiness.
All of those habits and qualities are hard to achieve, and worth the effort for their own sake, and precious because they come from our Lord. That’s enough to keep me busy for a lifetime.
How did you come to this conclusion? Or better yest, what do you mean by a ‘genderless future’?
The young reformers truly idolize the Fab Four (Al Mohler, C.J. Mahaney, Mark Dever & Ligon Duncan)! Throw Piper in the pack, and they start screaming! The YRR tweet and retweet Piper Points, Mohler Moments, Mahaney Malarkey, Dever Drivel, and Duncan Donuts. It’s madness!
But now it is only three. Who will be the new 4th?
This is a gross misstatement of what most Christian Universalists actually believe. It’s fine if you don’t want to believe it yourself, but if you are going to label others as heretics you should at least do the work to find out what they actually believe and find the appropriate standard which identifies it as heresy. It appears to me that you only investigated the oppsition but did not investigate the actual positions of the proponents. You either did not do the research, which makes you imcompetent to judge. Or you did do the research and you are intentionally misreprenting it. This way of ignorantly labeling others as heretics is very similar to what New-Calvinists do.
Nah, Mahaney is still in the background … waiting for time to pass and/or other scandals in the Christian Industrial Complex to take the focus off of him. The bros wouldn’t dump him … “Al’s little play group” are buds forever.
As someone who deals with chronic major depression, anxiety and autism spectrum disorder, I absolutely DO NOT need anyone yelling or whispering to me about the Fear of the Lord. I can scare myself quite well, I do not need anyone else trying to do this to me.
And that’s something I want to talk about. How many preachers actually THINK about the mental health of the people in the pews when they start shouting about THE FEAR OF THE LORD? Probably none of them! And you know, this is the kind of stuff that could push a fragile person over the edge. But no, that’s hard preaching and really good to get people to realize the depth of their sin. Has it occurred to them or anyone that many, many people are very good at beating ourselves up over sins, real or imagined?
Life is very hard. People are stressed out–personal issue, a pandemic, worry about jobs and family and putting food on the table and paying the rent–for MOST of us, we don’t need to be thwacked over the had with THE FEAR OF THE LORD. We need kindness and compassion. Maybe the “demonic” you’re looking for, Mr. Jesperson, is continually beating up hurting and repentant people in the name of THE FEAR OF THE LORD.
I think it’s way past time to turn down the rhetoric. All it does is make sure that people who need compassion are going to walk away because all they hear is FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR.
And how many of them preach on this verse?
“There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.”
I’m convinced that most of them (sins) are imagined.
Glad you alluded to it.
Muff Potter,
Catholic and protestant authorities alike have got almost all of us denying that Holy Spirit wants to bring us either help in the form of Providence, or what it takes to improve our morals, either (but on the latter score they pretend). (In the UK, christians are almost solely a tiny upper middle class fragment who don’t need any real help anyway, not even in this crisis.)
Sacramentolatry or personality cult / churchmanship have been placed to usurp the place of Holy Spirit. Given that Holy Spirit is meant to be Jesus come in the flesh, they are the ones mentioned in Scripture who are blaspheming Him and oppressing the needy in one fell swoop.
Church authorities have no awe of the Lord in Mr Jesperson’s sense. The sleight of the authorities is to deflect onto us little ones what applies to them not us. Apart from the fact that there may be a wider range of personal outcomes than Mr J mentioned, I agree strongly with all of you and (being in great distress myself) didn’t feel targetted by this.
Like enquiring and inferring. “It’s a mystery!”
How many of them give thought to us when they gaslight and dumb down about Jesus in the flesh, i.e Holy Spirit power for living?
Or use Jesus as a model, because He only preached more fire and brimstone messages to the people who were the ones preaching “the fear of the Lord” or a bunch of rules on how you were supposed to follow God. He treated ordinary people with extraordinary grace and gentle stories. He didn’t make theology the primary directive or indicator of faith. He hung out with people who most Christians now would never associate with.
I don’t have answers on how many God plans to save, and I don’t know that I’m a universalist because I’ve met some truly evil people who lived their lives hurting others, but I suspect there will be a lot of surprising people in heaven/afterlife.
Just for you, a new streaming service of “carefully curated” Calvinist content:
https://www.challies.com/sponsored/agtv-a-new-bible-based-streaming-network/
That’s exactly what Jesus said. He also said he will separate the sheep and the goats by actions, not by doctrinal positions.
“He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me. Then by reasons of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him.”
Conversation between Emeth (Calormene soldier) and Aslan in The Last Battle
When the New Calvinist movement stops moving (it will) – when this aberration of faith is no more – those who served as mouthpieces to “carefully curate” the false message will pay a price before God; cult leaders always do.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“it’s not clear that universalism was actually condemned in the 6th ecumenical council. The condemnation comes from an appendix that probably was added on later and not actually addressed in the council itself.”
++++++++++++++++
totally interesting. can you recommend the sources you’ve read on all this? if too laborious, no worries.
Muff Potter,
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Has it occurred to them or anyone that many, many people are very good at beating ourselves up over sins, real or imagined?
muff: I’m convinced that most of them (sins) are imagined.
+++++++++++++++
like the horrible sins of sarcasm and wearing tank tops.
…and many others that change depending on where you go in the psychologically disordered & diseased world of christian culture.
elastigirl,
sorry if i didn’t say that well, or thoughtfully.
That video should come with a health warning–feeling rather seasick after watching Sam Storms. Seems that he placed his camera in a tumble dryer while filming himself.
IIRC, in his “The Resurrection of the Son of God”, NT Wright affirms the same, in terms of “we may be surprised who is welcome to participate in the Age to Come.” IIRC he thinks there will be a larger number of “admittees” than is usually reckoned by the consensus theories of personal eschatology.
NTW is no universalist, however, I hasten to add.
It’s been a number of sources that I have not kept track of. One psource was the Robin Parry video I posted in an earlier comment on this thread. But it’s also easy to find articles on the web, such as this one: https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2020/05/31/did-the-fifth-ecumenical-council-condemn-universal-salvation/
It’s interesting that he was declared a heretic three centuries after he died without specifically stating why he was condemned.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“It’s interesting that he was declared a heretic three centuries after he died without specifically stating why he was condemned.”
+++++++++++
ha…. might as well have been “liberal!”
That is my understanding as well – I don’t feel like I’ve settled one way another on this topic. In the meantime I am enjoying slowly reading a very large book of his.
Who was more woke, Origen or his condemners? I am wondering if wokeness is more like a circle than a line, where if you go far enough in one direction you eventually become exactly what you originally opposed.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
“of making many books there is no end”
Eccl 12:12
Well, when he was preaching here about how COVID was God’s Wrath poured out on the so-called Church, he claimed Private Revelation direct from Jesus appearing to him in either a dream or a vision.
In my church culture, claiming Private Revelation (commonly called “Mary Channeling”) is the characteristic way to flake out. Mr J gave his credibility one helluva hit with that claim.
As for “Genderless Future in the Lake of Fire or New Jerusalem”, there was a folk belief going round during my time in-country (helped by a Christianese Beyond and Back NDE best-seller of the time) where in Heaven we will be neuter “souls” without genitalia. This claim has to be related to some variant of that.