“Your need for acceptance can make you invisible in this world. Don’t let anything stand in the way of the light that shines through this form. Risk being seen in all of your glory.”
―
I believe that the SBC has a terrible image problem and the following story confirms this. There are a number of SBC pastors that I love and respect. Wade Burleson’s sermons are featured on our EChurch and the guys over at SBC Voices are great. One of them makes an appearance in this story. I was a member of a Reformed Baptist church for a number of years. Before things got bad, I would tell people I was Baptist. I can’t imagine denying who I am.
My husband and I love Saturday evenings. We go to church, grab food to go (we are in a Jersey Mike’s phase) and come home to watch some of our favorite programs. Besides news shows, we are currently watching Star Trek Discovery (no surprise there), Ozark, and Grantchester. Sometimes I’ll keep an eye on Twitter while watching my shows. I learn a lot about what’s going on in the church world there. Earlier in the day, I had posted about an SBC megachurch in my area, Hope Community Church, which was going to address a couple of issues regarding abuse. I am not currently in a position to comment on the church’s explanation since I don’t know the details but will continue to follow it.
And then, I entered the Twilight Zone…
An individual responded, telling me that I was wrong. Hope Community Church is nondenominational and not Baptist. She made the claim that she had been going there for 12 years and she *knew* it wasn’t Baptist. More folks weighed in.
Update 10/27 The inclusion of tweets in this post does not mean that they should be viewed negatively. They were helpful at getting to the bottom of what constitutes SBC membership.
I had attended this church for a short period of time as we were reconsidering our church affiliation. At this stage, we were deeply dissatisfied and were trying to figure out what to do. During this period, the church did not have actual members but that changed after we left.
So, Dee, ever the teacher, decided to help these folks understand that the church was a member of the SBC. It is quite simple.
- Go to the Church directory search at the SBC. https://churches.sbc.net
- Enter the name of the location of a churhc and voilà!
- Hope Community Church is listed as a member.
I use this site frequently. I noticed that Andy Savage’s Highpoint Church was a member of the SBC when Jules’ story became well known. I posted a screenshot in one of my posts. I discovered that the church had removed themselves from the SBC listing a few weeks later.
One individual became incensed, claiming that giving money to the SBC doesn’t mean a church is a member. But others knew that the listing is correct.
By this point, I began to suspect that some of what appeared to be angry responses had nothing to do with needing proof. That shouldn’t cause anger. It had to do with some folks wanting to deny that they were members of an SBC church and I began to get really interested in the exchange! Amy Smith noticed the issue and chimed in. Both of us had been members of SBC churches and both of us left the denomination over what we believe was the mishandling of sex abuse
The discussion turned to what constitutes SBC membership. It seemed to me that some folks wanted to deny their church was SBC due to lax standards of membership. However, the rules of the game are the rules of the game. Lax standards or not, thems the standards! Besides, I believe the underlying frustration was due to something else entirely.
William Thornton from SBC Voices arrived to rescue me. This guy knows his SBC. (Thank you, William.)
Why do people deny that their church is SBC?
#SBCdenial
I summed up this part of the conversation like this.
What is the deal with folks being upset when they discover their church is a member of the SBC-so much so that they feel they must deny it?
I dealt with my dissatisfaction by becoming a Lutheran. I would never be a member of an organization or church in which I would try everything I could to pretend that I’m not a member. In this particular situation, I called a dear friend who attends Hope Community Church and is very involved. When I told him of this discussion, he said that the pastor, Mike Lee, is very open about being a member of the SBC. In other words, it is the individual members who are either not paying attention or something else is going on. I think it is something else.
In my post in 2019, We Are Not Baptists…Are We? Why Are SBC Churches Hiding Their SBC Affiliation From Their Church Members? you can see a video of Greear explain to the church that they really are SBC and he is going to be the President of the SBC. When I watched this, I had a good laugh, remembering my conversations with Summit members who were adamant that they were not Baptists. Then, their own pastor became the SBC President.
Others chimed in on Twitter.
Anna got to the heart of the matter.
Here is a quote from my post about a stealth SBC church in my area.
I have discovered a number of churches in my area are stealth SBC churches. For example here is a statement of one large *nondenominational” church. Notice how they slip the SBC into a list of other organizations with which they affiliate. Membership in the SBC has simply become just another bit of fine print that no one reads. Is this what the SBC has intended?
Read this statement carefully. They claim they are a nondenominational church. But…they are members of the SBC. Notice how they hide the membership[ in the SBC below Campus Crusade for Christ which has changed its name to CRU.There is a world of difference to supporting Campus Crusade and being a member of the SBC. This church statement appears to be deliberately misleading. Nothing to see here, folks, move along.
We are a non-denominational church, which means we are not formally aligned with an established denomination and are completely autonomous. The governing leadership of this church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, is vested in the Elder Board, whose authority is derived from the body of believers who compose this church.
We have the privilege of affiliating and financially partnering with numerous faith-based organizations who also practice the great commission as outlined in Matthew 28:18-20.
Willow Creek Association
Campus Crusade for Christ International
Southern Baptist Convention and the North Carolina State Baptist Convention
Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches
Southern Baptists or Great Commission Baptists: a name change is coming but…there are problems.
The SBC moniker has negative connotations to it. It is now widely associated with racism and abuse. The latest thing is to go with Great Commission Baptists. How many of you know that there is a task force that has been around for quite a long time? In 2010, the task force (another money pit) formed in order to get under the problems of perception, amongst other things. This name was approved in 2012. Southern Baptists approve alternate name, but barely.
Southern Baptist researchers recently found that more than 70 percent of Southern Baptist pastors think the official name should continue, and more than half had no plans to use “Great Commission Baptists.”
Here is one of the posts I wrote on the matter. Why Did the SBC Seal the Records of the Great Commission Resurgence Task Force Deliberations for 15 Years (2025?)
- Did you know this discussion has been ongoing since 2010?
- Did you know that the deliberation of this committee will be kept secret until 2025?
- Why in the world are they keeping it a secret?
- What is the scope of this committee?
- How much money has been *utilized* during these years?
- Did you know that Ronnie Floyd is leading this task force along with credentialing and everything else? I wonder how much he’s being paid on top of his other *appointments?*
- Why have churches refused to use the name? It’s been around for a number of years?
Why GCB name could be a bad idea.
In an episode of Ozark, a young boy was told to change his name to Michael Fleming in order to protect himself and his family. He said “I don’t want to be called Michael Fleming. They will call me Flem (phlegm)” Is the SBC aware of the potential problem of the initials *GCB?* During the time of the early deliberations, there was a book(semiautobiographical) and a television series named GCB I(Good Christian B****es.) Having spent 10 years in Dallas, I have to admit that the show nailed the culture.
From Wikipedia
Based on the semi-autobiographical 2008 novel Good Christian B*****s by Kim Gatlin, the series centers on a recently widowed woman who moves her family back to the upscale Dallas-area town where she grew up.
The series debuted on ABC as a mid-season replacement for Pan Am in the 2011–12 television season,[2] on March 4, 2012.[3] On May 11, 2012, both series were canceled by ABC. In its series finale, GCB drew 5.6 million viewers.[4][5]
A reboot of the series, also titled Good Christian Bitches, was greenlit by The CW in November 2018.
Folks, the potential for uncomfortable okes is evident. I would suggest going back to the drawing board and thinking up something simple.
First??
“Stealth SBC churches” have been around for a LONG time.
During the Eighties, a common joke on KBRT talk radio was “I’m non-denominational. You know, Southern Baptist with the labels scraped off?”
(Though at the time and place, “non-denominational” was coming to mean “Calvary Chapel Clone”. There were also a LOT of Stealth CC Clones being church-planted at the time.)
And with churches dropping the name “Baptist” as well as those SBC churches hiding their SBC affiliation, is there a sense of shame in being a Baptist these days? “For I am not ashamed of the gospel,” –but perhaps ashamed of the means of delivering it.
Stealth is also a factor among 9Marks and affiliates. And the “church revitalization” movement in general does not play with all its cards on the table.
Not to equate SBC with 9Marks too much, but where they’re not the same they’re at least incestuous.
Membership with this crowd is a huuuge deal. But is it only membership of individuals with “the local church” that’s important? Is there no problem with such a loosey-goosey membership of local churches to the SBC itself?
Make me wonder if it has anything to do with Auxano – Lifeway approved church growth consulting company. My understanding is that Auxano favors “rebranding” for a “fresh start”. Since I left church, I found out there are a number of Baptist churches in DFW area went through their repackaging process.
https://www.baptistpress.com/resource-library/news/sweeping-changes-ahead-for-8-state-conventions/
Reminder, there used to be an SBC Minister Search as well. They yanked it off the website last year, after the Houston Chronicle articles.
Well, did a little bit more googling and found a julie roys’ report on FBC Naples that involves Auxano. From a link on her report, Auxuno is the offical partner with NAMB to push their process starting 2020.
Glad I am out of this circus .
https://julieroys.com/excommunicated-baptists-say-megachurch-smeared-them-as-racists-and-so-did-sbc-leaders/
https://www.willmancini.com/organizations
I’m guessing their process is not just about rebranding, but also about reforming.
I promise, within 10 years, the SBC will start asking churches to de-autonomize and put themselves under a bigger leadership heirarchy.
“Why GCB name could be a bad idea.”
The New Calvinists are now clearly in charge of the SBC, a once-great evangelistic denomination. The former SBC (pre-New Calvinism) was evangelistic … its denominational gifting was evangelism … the Great Commission truly was its mission (I know that as a former Southern Baptist for 70 years). New Calvinism has little to do with the Great Commission as described in the Bible … the mission of the new reformers is to plant reformed theology across the globe – what’s great about that?! Changing the name of SBC to Great Commission Baptists is a bad idea because it has little to do with either the Great Commission or historical Baptist identity.
Ronnie Floyd (now SBC Treasurer & Executive Committee CEO) was a prime mover in a push to assimilate churches from other traditions into the Convention during his years as SBC President:
2015 – Ronnie Floyd has strategy for reversing the SBC’s numerical decline
http://www.bpnews.net/44513/floyd-recruit-churches-to-sbcs-exciting-work
“Recruiting existing churches to cooperate with the Southern Baptist Convention is among the components of convention president Ronnie Floyd’s strategy”
“Some of these like-minded churches are nondenominational and others may be a part of a denomination…Southern Baptists should adopt a cumulative approach to growing and strengthening the convention that includes…church recruiting…church recruiting represents a significant opportunity for denominational growth”
[Not long afterward, it came out that the churches of C.J. Mahaney (of the Sovereign Grace Ministries network) and James MacDonald (of the Harvest Bible Fellowship network) were suddenly Southern Baptist]
“Church revitalization” is New Calvinist code which means Calvinizing a non-Calvinist church. Young reformers enter a struggling church by stealth and deception, take it over for the reformed movement, and progressively indoctrinate church members (those who don’t discern what’s happening to them). There’s nothing of God about it.
I’m guessing that these ‘stealth’ churches typically dint hold members meetings.
Posted over at SBCVoices in 2017 by the man recruited by RonnieFloyd as a go-between for CJMahaney’s Sovereign Grace Church:
https://sbcvoices.com/steve-gaines-on-the-cooperative-program/#comment-342101
James Forbis: “I was the ‘guy’ that Dr. Floyd appointed…tasked by him to assist Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville’s transition to become affiliated with the SBC and continue to have dual alignment with the Sovereign Grace Ministries network of churches…I hand-delivered the check to Frank Page while passing through Nashville…Sovereign Grace is actively involved in sending monies to the CP and directly to SBTS, SEBTS, NAMB,..and the IMB.”
https://sbcvoices.com/what-should-we-think-about-pastor-platt/#comment-353004
James Forbis: “I was specifically sent to SGCL to help them make the transition to dual alignment with the SBC. I was under the direction of then president Ronnie Floyd”
The Acts 29 Network (Driscoll’s former ministry) also partnered with SBC to bring new members into the denomination (along with it came aggressive Calvinization of the potty-mouth Driscoll type). There are numerous SBC churches which hold dual affiliation with Acts 29. Southern Baptist pastor Matt Chandler is President, Acts 29. Southern Baptists (the real ones, what’s left of them) were non-Calvinist for the last 150 years … until Al Mohler and the Mohlerites started messing with the denomination.
No, they have an elder-rule polity with no congregational governance. Members sign a covenant which essentially keeps them out of church business.
Discounted tuition, incentive for a church to quietly yoke up with the SBC:
Students who are members of SBC churches pay $275 per credit hour.
If you are a member of a non-SBC church, it’s $475 per credit hour.
https://www.sbts.edu/admissions/financial-aid/estimated-costs/
SBC’s North American Mission Board (NAMB), now under New Calvinist control, has had an aggressive church planting program for several years … with a goal to plant 1,000 new churches annually. I suspect that few members know that they are affiliated with SBC. Church planters don’t wave the SBC flag, but have no problem taking SBC church planting funds. This is all about expanding the New Calvinist kingdom, not building the SBC (or at least the historical one).
I missed that one. Thanks for the laugh.
Good comment.
Jerome,
I forgot about that.
I totally agree.
Jerome,
The *big tent* SBC…I wonder how wmuch Armany Ronnie has madde running things for the SBC?
Max,
I have been trying for years to find out the number of church plant fails from this crowd. One of the pastors from my old SBC church went to assist a church in Florida which planned to plant 200 churches by 2020. He left and is selling real estate in 2020.
Chris S,
Most of these churches have elders running the show., Members are there for tithing.
Jerome,
You are amazing. I didn’t know that!!!
Assimilation recruitment from Fundamentalist Baptist and Calvary Chapel circles…
Floyd spoke at the fundamentalist Baptist Bible Fellowship national meeting in 2015:
https://www.bbfi.org/events/2015/5/4/may-national-fellowship-meeting
Months later, the President of Baptist Bible Fellowship announced his church (High Street Baptist, Springfield, Mo.) is (dual) affiliating with with SBC:
https://brnow.org/News/February-2017/Independent-church-aligns-with-Missouri-Baptists-S
2017 Baptist Press article touting Calvary Chapel folks in Phoenix affiliating as Southern Baptist:
http://www.bpnews.net/48939/phoenix-church-planters-turning-back-darkness
“Before planting CityView, Semmler served as the youth pastor at the nondenominational Calvary Community Church in Phoenix for more than 16 years. He didn’t know much about the SBC or NAMB before being connected with NAMB Send City Phoenix missionary Monty Patton. Calvary Community is now affiliated with the Arizona Southern Baptist Convention.”
Max,
It has become more difficult to differentiate bewteen 9 Marx, Acts 29, TGC, CBMW, NAMB, etc. They all go to the same conferences, they all write the same books, etc. They all guest preach for one another. I wonder if they all buy Matt Chandler’s staks. They should join into one entity and save some money.
Jerome,
Good one.
(2017)
“Greg Laurie’s Harvest Church Joins SBC, Continues Ties With Calvary Chapel”
https://www.charismanews.com/us/65509-greg-laurie-s-harvest-church-leaves-calvary-chapel-for-sbc
And, for the most part, all have the same bad-boy elite at the top of the organizational pyramid. They have joined into one entity … it’s called New Calvinism. The beast has multiple arms (the groups you note) which reach different market segments in the promotion of reformed theology. The various threads have a common purpose … to reach Generations X, Y and Z with reformed theology, to Calvinize the American church.
That number is as elusive as the “real” membership of the Southern Baptist Convention. They brag about 16 million members, but I figure the actual active membership at less than half that number (from my 70 year snapshot as a Southern Baptist). You will also have a hard time finding out the theological persuasion of SBC church planters … although, one has to assume New Calvinist since most of the planters are coming out of SBC seminaries which now lean reformed … the planters in my area are exclusively New Calvinist – they plant theology, not Gospel churches.
The Pew Religious Landscape survey of 2014 found 5.3% of the population surveyed identified as Southern Baptist and that does come out to about 16 million. However they are on the older side. https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/religious-denomination/southern-baptist-convention/
I note that around where I live a very large number of the SBC affiliated churches are Korean speaking; I wonder how many of their members know they are in the Southern Baptist convention.
That’s the same group that Thomas Road BC (Jerry Falwell) was a member of (and may still be, their website isn’t very good in its search) prior to dual-alignment with SBC.
I would imagine this gets very complicated.
We were part of an A29 church (a genuine new plant, from scratch) for a couple years. They planted a non-profit para-church organization fairly early, as well. Another local church (the plant of a different denomination) became an A29 plant when the pastor switched allegiances (for genuine intentions, I think). That church dwindled and ended up merging with ours. So what was three became two. Then the non-profit closed down after a few-years run. Then just recently the original A29 plant closed down. So what was once three is now zero. All this happened in the space of 12 or so years.
How would someone count the church that was “planted” (i.e. “transplanted”) and then merged with another? How would you measure “success” or “failure?” Making it to 10 years? 20? Does it depend on whether the congregation can support a full-time pastor or not?
All that to say, it would be fascinating research.
Southern Baptists in Canada weren’t growing much.
They’d been around Canada in some form since the 1800’s.
In 2001 they had about 10 thousand members.
They went through a name change in 2008 to Canadian National Baptist Convention and started an aggressive church planting campaign. There are supposedly 421 churches (2020) with 23 thousand members as of 2017 (Wikipedia) T
The College in Alberta hasn’t hidden it’s name and affiliation – it’s Canadian Southern Baptist Seminary and College and has been around 33 years. Looks like all the profs and affiliated faculty except 2 trained in the US.
Had to know how many of the 23 thousand Canadian Southern Baptists know they are SBC, since the church websites I looked at were sparse with information.
Max
“Stealth” triggers me to write a long response. This was my experience as a peon in my ex-church. There were regular members meeting once a month in my former church until Auxano got involved.
1. Regular once a month membership meeting were called off
2. Had a few specially called meetings where they started adopting Auxano lingo
3. Senior pastor started bringing up the subject about succession under Auxano’s framework
4. Rolled out a new discipleship curriculum. Join by personal invitation from pastoral staff, not through announcement to whole congregation. Program lead by son-in-law and daughter. Looking back it was designed to rebuild a loyalty group within the congregation (or should I say grooming a group of lemmings)
5. Later, I found out there were “lay leaders meeting” i.e. those who had gone thro’ the new discipleship training. No all members meetings. No detail updates on Auxano’s process and where the church was at.
6. Senior pastor held a special meeting with long time members and “politely” informed them to clear the way for the next generation of leadership. Using Moses and Joshua as the model sending a message not to go against God’s appointed. However, pls., do your duty and keep donating.
7. Changed church constitution to Pastoral lead. Add a layer of MALE ONLY elders and a board of directors made up of senior pastor, executive pastor (the senior pastor’s son-in-law), worship pastor, two elders (whose wives were part of the church’s paid staff at that time), and a senior pastor from the church’s own network. Under this new structure only the Board of Directors can fire pastoral staff. This change was sold to us as preparing for “growth”. Looking back it was to secure the place of the incoming senior pastor – absolutely nothing to do with growth. The church was and is not growing.
8. No input from all members on pastoral search. No announcement to all members about who is on the search list. Maybe I was not informed because I was not in the “loyalty group” meetings.
10. Several associate pastors left to do church planting with church’s blessing. Leaving one and only viable candidate: Sr. Pastor’s son-in-law.
11. When all the above is done within a couple of years, the announcement came that the God-approved qualified successor is son-in-law. Does not need congregation to approve b/c constitution was changed. Sold to us that they had done dual diligence of vetting the candidates by a third-party consulting firm. Yes, candidates but did not list who the candidates were.
12. Senior pastor announced that he would retire soon, and will remain as a “lay person” in the congregation.
13. Not long after my family left the church, the church rolled out rebranding of logo and website just before son-in-law started senior pastor position.
Everything was done in stealth with minimal communication to the congregation for a smooth transition. All decisions were made within the pastoral inner circle. Only pastoral staff (mainly senior pastor) knows where Holy Spirit is leading the church. Congregation is just a bank and free labor to them. Senior pastor put in this way for those who left the church – “some people get on the bus and some people get off the bus.” Pastoral care is exclusive for loyalty club.
After leaving the church of 16 years, I started my long journey of stripping down my faith. Looking back the church is on the borderline similar to Gothard, Scientology, or Moonies. There is a hard core group that worships the senior pastor and never questions his “wisdom” teaching. His interpretation of scripture on how life works IS the holy scripture.
Never again will I be someone’s slave, laboring for their own ambition to build their version of God’s kingdom.
Yes, it is a SBC church and not calvinist. The church mentions their affiliation with SBC in a very low key way during the membership classes. After that, you will never hear the word SBC again. One more fact, PP hat lady’s handmaid is a member of my ex-church!
Don’t forget the Seven Heads and Ten Horns amid those multiple arms.
The One Intermediary between God and man, huh?
JUST LIKE SCIENTOLOGY!
(Except they have lots of little David Miscavages…)
Article on David Platt and McLean Bible Church, 3/23/17:
http://www.christianpost.com/news/david-platt-joins-mclean-bible-church-as-interim-pastor-megachurchs-senior-pastor-stepping-down-177910/
https://blackchristiannews.com/2017/03/david-platt-joins-mclean-bible-church-as-interim-teaching-pastor-senior-pastor-lon-solomon-stepping-down-after-over-36-years-of-leading/
“McLean Bible Church was founded as a nondenominational church but according to McGowan, McLean “began cooperating with Southern Baptists in 2016” and is now “the hub for the North American Mission Board’s church-planting efforts in the Washington, D.C., area.””
“McGowan further explained to CP: “In accordance with the SBC Constitution, Article III, McLean Bible Church declared its affirmation of a faith and practice in doctrinal harmony with The Baptist Faith and Message, its commitment to become a cooperating church with the Southern Baptist Convention [April 2016], and has contributed to Convention work through the Cooperative Program Allocation Budget.”
And yet, here’s what was posted on the church’s “Who We Are” page, per an archived web page from October 23, 2016 (which I believe was later than ‘April 2016’):
http://web.archive.org/web/20161023005226/https://www.mcleanbible.org/who-we-are
“We’re a “Bible Church.” The Bible is our standard of faith and practice, and we are of no specific Christian denomination.”
That snippet had evidently been excised by July 2017 (while Platt was apparently still in place at the IMB despite the announcement regarding his joining McLean). Yet, I couldn’t find a word on the “Who We Are“ page indicating that the SBC is part of that, let alone such a prominent part as “the hub for the North American Mission Board’s church-planting efforts in the Washington, D.C., area” — another important fact that did not appear to be disclosed there as a part of who they are:
http://web.archive.org/web/20170531200106/https://www.mcleanbible.org/who-we-are
If you make that “promise” a bet, I’ll take it
Sowre-sweet Dayes,
I’m curious about the substantial number of “authority” figures, different kinds of “pastors,” in your description. Do you have an idea of the size of the congregation?
Churches of Christ use the “non-denominational” label as well. In recent years, there have been stories of Churches of Christ “rebranding” themselves as “community churches”.
This is why I disagree with Max that it’s about theology. It’s not about theology. They “revitalize” churches who already have resources. They take over denominations that already have resources. They form parachurch organizations which put themselves in power. They remove members from all decision-making, but expect them to continue tithing.
It’s about money. They have all these organizations so they can generate money for their leaders and boards.
From my perspective the taking over of resources was a big part of the FUNDAMENTALIST TAKEOVER of the SBC starting in 1979. As far as I am concerned those that took part in the takeover stole the resources that others had given over the years.
I wonder if anyone has investigated Auxano. They were brought into the SBC church that I left a few years ago. I wonder how many churches they have ruined.
I don’t think LifeWay Research has updated the poll that showed the great majority of SBC pastors favor keeping names the same.
Seems to be a large and megachurch bias in looking at SBC churches that have, uh, sanitized their name and removed “Southern” and/or “Baptist.” In the vast majority of the almost 50k SBC churches it’s not an issue. But, large and megachurches are influential so it’s important.
My hacker and plodder opinion is that the name business is driven more by the declining popularity of denominations, not any particular issue within the denomination. The big push to use “Great Commission Baptist” is a top-down push. But, folks can use it if they want. I’m not a big fan.
Not sure why the GCR committee worked its way into this interesting article. The “descriptor” approval committee and GCR were two different groups but I’m with you 1k percent on the absurdity of sealing the GCR records and minutes.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
The martyrs of the reformation should turn over in their graves…
My perception from membership in an IFB congregation decades ago is that for some people in that movement, the term “denomination” has two negative connotations: supra-ecclesial hierarchy and a consequent vulnerability to doctrinal drift and slippage originating from the top and trickling down to local congregations (as was perceived to have happened in main-line denominations).
SBC is not really a “denomination” in the first sense — it’s an association of autonomous congregations. For the leadership of a congregation to claim “non-denominational” and to also be (secretly or not) part of the SBC is not a contradiction. But it might be that many people think of SBC as a “denomination” (this language is frequently used of SBC at TWW, for example).
I may be way off-base here, but it seems to me that this is a point that is important to many Baptists. ARBCA, for example, does not consider itself a denomination. It considers itself a confessional association of baptist churches. The association has an administrative council but that council has no authority over the local congregations.
If the above is sound, I wonder to what extent the discomfort with the idea of “being in the SBC” is rooted in a) mistaken understanding of ‘what the SBC is’ (a toothless ‘association’ rather than a true hierarchical ‘denomination’) versus b) specific bad reputation that the SBC has earned for itself.
I’m not Baptist and know little of what they’re all about.
However reading here, everyone thinks that takeovers are bad, yet except for a few that leave, the takeovers keep happening.
So if nobody likes it, how is it happening!
The Baptists that I have known are pretty big C conservative, I suspect they like the tough talk. With a more diverse society, it probably scares them. So far attempts to impose those views on the wider culture have failed.
This a genuine question…is there a ethnic component to this? What’s the demographic of these churches?
I have my thoughts but not being Baptist, I don’t know if they’re on the right track.
the 2009-2010 Great Commission Resurgence (aim: restructuring/$$$) task force had members such as:
Albert Mohler, David Dockery, Roger Spradlin, Frank Page, Danny Akin, JD Greear, etc.
Chairman was Ronnie Floyd.
the follow up 2010-2011 ‘Great Commission Baptist’ (aim: new name) task force had members such as:
Albert Mohler, David Dockery, Roger Spradlin, Paige Patterson, Kevin Ezell, Micah Fries, etc.
Chairman was Jimmy Draper.
From what I’ve seen, those in the churches that haven’t been taken over yet don’t believe it happens.
I have spoken to good friends still in SBC churches about church takeovers and what’s happening in the institutions, and they just shrug and say it would never happen to their church. But it happened to my church (two of them now). And they think that everybody can get along and vote at Convention accordingly. I think it’s a classic case of sticking your head in the sand and pretending there’s nothing going on around you.
And there’s a lot of people that stay, believing they will change their church back. Until they end up getting kicked out. I have friends here that got kicked out who have parents still in that church. Their parents are being encouraged to shun them and the rest of their family. I haven’t been able to speak to them since covid, but last I heard, the parents were refusing to comply and probably would get kicked out, too.
The New Calvinists do like to target churches who own their own property, but they seem to go equally after large and small churches. I think they might even go more after smaller churches, because the larger ones are often personality cults with a very defined culture.
Here in Raleigh, I’ve been told when visiting “non-denominational” churches that if nearby seminary students want to serve at that church it must be a part of the SBC. It’s a racket. Scratch-my-back and I’ll-scratch-yours. Free/cheap inexperienced student-pastors who are trying to tell sincere, mature, and humble church members how to live a “real” Christian life that exalts the church instead of following Jesus.
I suspect (in one word): WHITE.
You DO know what “GCB” also stands for?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GCB_(TV_series)
And it’s even a CHRISTIAN context!
The Dallas Upscale MegaGigaChurch Scene!
I want everyone to understand that I am not criquing those whose tweets I included in the post. Their tweets were particularly helpful in getting to the root of the problem. The SBC has few stadards for member churches. I’m still trying to figure out what they are!
But theology is driving the militancy and aggression as the New Calvinist takeover (“revitalize”) churches. The new reformers are passionate about their theology – they truly believe they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the Gospel (= Calvinism) that un-revitalized churches (= non-Calvinist) have lost. In the process, they loot and pillage the resources that others have financed. To the New Calvinist elite (Mohler, etc.), it’s certainly about the stuff … but they fuel the taking of the stuff by the NeoCal army by whipping the young rebels into a frenzy with their aberrant theology. The leaders of this movement will pay a price before God – they have disrupted a once-great evangelistic group of people known as Southern Baptists.
From my long (70 year) tenure in SBC life, I can tell you that in the churches I attended, roughly 50% of the 16 million on church rolls were nowhere to be seen: dead, moved, joined other churches, etc. The Pew surveys are biased because they consider the total numbers provided by SBC – of which half or so are gone bye-bye in one sense or another. Of the 8 million or so that actually attend SBC churches occasionally, roughly half of those – 4 million – could be considered active participants in the ministry of local churches. That is the real membership of the Southern Baptist Convention, IMHO.
Very few of the young lieutenants on the battlefield prosper from the New Calvinist rebellion. The generals looking down from the top of the mountain are raking in the dough (lofty positions, books, conferences, steaks, etc.). They rely on the young NeoCal army to keep them on the throne. That’s one of the saddest things about this movement … the way young men are indoctrinated and spiritually abused for the benefit of the elite. We are losing a generation of potential preachers of the Gospel (the real one) to this madness.
Today’s Southern Baptist Convention has a reputation, a well-earned reputation that can’t be changed by slapping on a new name.
‘Southern’ isn’t the problem, if anything the modern SBC contributes to besmirching the concept of what ‘Southern’ is, rather than the other way around.
Papering over the SBC mess with a Great Commission label won’t work. A few naive people may be duped by the scheme for a time.
But how long until the ‘Great Commission’ itself becomes a byword as well? What a shame if that lofty concept is dragged down too.
In my opinion?
They’d be doing themselves a favor to model such a move.
The strong central governing principle has contributed greatly to keeping Lutheranism alive for as long as it’s been around in America.
Really young pastors are easier to manipulate. That’s why there was such a focus on the Young, Restless, and Reformed. When you have a seminary nearby, there’s LOTS of baby pastors who want their first jobs. And those in that movement believe they have the answers to everything and the power to force others to fall in line. Those students were really annoying at SEBTS.
There are those at the seminary who are manipulating the baby pastors. But a lot of church members, but particularly people like affluent deacons, who think they can control a very young pastor. This is actually a situation at a church near me: Deacon pushed for a young pastor, thinking they will control the church through him. Young pastor is YRR and has different ideas, but there are those outside the church influencing and trying to control him (and his church vote). Other members are sick of them both, so we’ll see how that turns out.
That might be true. I don’t think they would be transparent, though, as they’ve shown already. I also think it would be kinda ridiculous after all their insistence on the theology of autonomy (despite refusing autonomy from members of their churches).
Not many details, but here’s the basic how-to-join SBC’s “family” … (a “family” who has been treating some of its brothers and sisters well in recent years):
https://www.sbc.net/join/join-the-family/
Correction: a “family” who has NOT been treating some its brothers and sisters well in recent years
Yes, constitution requires three things to become an SBC church:
https://www.sbc.net/about/what-we-do/legal-documentation/constitution/
“(1) Has a faith and practice which closely identifies with the Convention’s adopted statement of faith. (By way of example, churches which act to affirm, approve, or endorse homosexual behavior would be deemed not to be in cooperation with the Convention.)
(2) Has formally approved its intention to cooperate with the Southern Baptist Convention. (By way of example, the regular filing of the annual report requested by the Convention would be one indication of such cooperation.)
(3) Has made undesignated, financial contribution(s) through the Cooperative Program, and/or through the Convention’s Executive Committee for Convention causes, and/or to any Convention entity during the fiscal year preceding.”
Well, this former SBC gal thinks it a good thing they take the name “Baptist” off their signs.
When they gave up on the priesthood of THE believer and soul freedom and soul sufficiency they gave up on being Baptists anyway.
SBC Constitution is in the process of being amended: two further stipulations that must pass by 2/3 at the next Annual Meeting to go into effect are:
that a church must
not act in a manner inconsistent with the Convention’s beliefs regarding sexual abuse
not act to affirm, approve, or endorse discriminatory behavior on the basis of ethnicity.
SBC-YRR church planters in my area make minimal CP contributions to achieve and maintain SBC affiliation … usually $100-500. Those numbers are readily available through local SBC associations – annual reports are prepared by local associations to submit to State conventions. The average church plant reaps lots more SBC funds through church planting allocations than they sow into the “denomination” … even after they are standing on their own without such support.
So did the starry-eyed youths of the Young Communist League, Hitlerjugend graduating into the SS, Chairman Mao’s Red Guard, and the Taliban.
And Exalts the free/cheap inexperienced Preacher-Boy as God’s Anointed One.
Those stipulations have effectively been in place via approved resolutions at national meetings for a number of years. Unfortunately, some folks disregarded those.
It took SBC 150 years to repent over its racial beginnings (Founders were slaveholders in the South) via a “Resolution On Racial Reconciliation” approved in 1995. “Southern” in Southern Baptist meant much more during the Civil War days … another reason the young reformers want to distance themselves from that name. “Great Commission Baptists” sounds so much more Christian.
In its 2013 resolution “On Sexual Abuse of Children”, a plea was made:
“we encourage all denominational leaders and employees of the Southern Baptist Convention to utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse.” That didn’t stop SBC elite from courting SGM (the framers of the resolution had Mohler and Mahaney in mind when they wrote that).
Church just down the street from me has rebranded itself twice in the past ten years. I think it was originally (what else?) Baptist. Then it rebranded itself as “PORTAL” and sent out a lot of flyers and cards in grey and maroon about “PORTAL” without mentioning anywhere on their ads that they were a church. Then a year or two ago they rebranded again as “City Church” with a different color scheme. No clue if they’re still affiliated with the Baptists or when the next rebranding (with a different set of spin consultants?) will go down.
I hate to break it to you, but a significant part of this problem is the way the rest of us feel about southerners in general. I doubt you will find this problem to be significant among Baptist General Conference or American Baptist churches.
A church in our community known as (streetname) Baptist Church got in trouble publicly for baptizing kids at VBS w/o parents’ permission. They have changed their name to (streetname) Christian Church, though I can’t see that they are affiliated with SBC.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Don’t forget all the Mormons! When I was teenager, it was always pitched they were the fastest growing church!
It is quite common for SBC church planters to name their churches with cool names like that … Journey, Summit, The Village, etc. … without any reference to Baptist, let alone Southern Baptist. Their SBC affiliation is tucked neatly away in a corner of their website (maybe) and most members don’t have a clue that they joined a Southern Baptist church.
An interesting thing happened near me with one planter. Under the cool church name on the marquee out front, the lead pastor entered “A Reformed Southern Baptist Church.” He then went on to explain what “reformed” meant on the church website. I may not agree with his theology, but I sure appreciate the young man’s integrity to identify who he is and what you will be exposed to there … unlike thousands of other SBC church planters.
If you are interested, you can call your local SBC association office to see if they have SBC affiliation. If you can’t find a listing for it, call “First Baptist” in your city and they will give you the number. (First Baptist usually means the first Southern Baptist church to hit town)
Cynthia W.,
When I was there, it was bouncing up and down around 800 people (including kids) on Sunday Worship. I do not know the exact membership numbers. Numbers were not reported to congregation on a regular basis. My estimate is around 300 to 400 members. Not a big church by any means.
Well, I have seen that in my wife’s Assemblies of God Pentecostal church when the pastor waxed nostalgically about a time when you knew what your neighbours were all about.
I don’t doubt some of the authoritarian leanings are taking advantage of a group that perceives it is losing it’s dominant place at the table – and the influence that comes with it.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
The now retired senior pastor taught that God seldom speaks directly to believer. While he was pastoring in CA during his early days, he had a one time “communication” from God that he would start a movement and if he did not obey, he would die. Make me realize that this is not Jesus’s church but his “baby”.
This is one of the red flags in my journey that I collected building up to my exit.
ishy,
Your comment is insightful into the “faith” that Baptists are placing in their co-religionists.
It seems that if they are like “us” then how bad could they be?
All denominations have a certain superiority complex, it may not be overtly stated but however ecumenically they feel, people are convinced that their brand is ultimately “right”.
So like frogs in water brought a slow boil, they feel the heat rise but don’t see the danger until it’s too late.
I also believe the bigger the church the more likely that most of the congregants are just there. They go to the programs, pay their dues etc, but don’t really pay attention to the running of the joint. And even if they disagree, then they’re kids are in the programs, their friends are there, the whole social life is entwined. So much so that the absurd becomes normal – remember the pastor that liked to rub other guys feet during meetings?
Not new and not uniquely Baptist. Our youth ministers used to tell us we teens were the only true Christians in the church. I was terrified that my parents and grandparents were going to Hell.
What a laugh. By that time my parents and grandparents, all lifelong practicing Christians, had fought in two world wars, survived the Great Depression, experienced early widowhood, undergone multiple surgeries for an illness that caused disability, and “done a hundred things you have not dreamed of.” But the youth ministers considered those generations to be insincere sellouts who treated the church like a club.
At this age, having survived a few things myself, I’m quiet about my faith. Fortunately our offspring don’t have somebody warning them that I’m going to Hell.
My bunch carefully teaches that these are our beliefs, not necessarily the best, and certainly not the only beliefs. What we do is precious to us, and that’s enough to bind us together.
Yes, that’s a thing that happened. One instance: some mainline church leaders came out against the Vietnam War draft before the congregations. Looking back, hmm, maybe the leaders were leading.
(To be clear: draftees and enlistees served with equal honor, but the draft itself was highly problematic.)
Yes, that’s true, too. I know in my churches there were a lot of “I’ve gone to this church my whole life so I’m not changing now. I owe my life loyalty to this church.” Except the loyalty was to an idea of church they had that really no longer existed. It wasn’t the same church of their childhood even though it was in the same building. They had completely different beliefs, a different culture, and different people.
Louis Gombert,
When I first became a Christian, I attended an American Baptist church which was absolutely wonderful. Trinity Baptust Church, Lynnfield , Mass. Howard Keeley was the pastor. I still rememeber some of his teaching.
Long ago I came to the conclusion that there is an optimum size range for a church, and Megas are way over the maximum.
And Megas are famous for having EVERY social/pop culture amenity on-campus, from Christian Bowling Leagues to Christian Fitness Gyms to Sacred Starbucks Clones. “Just like fill-in-the-blank, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)! 24/7/365!”
To the point it’s possible to go from Altar Call to Homegoing/Rapture without setting foot outside of Church(TM) or ever having to meet a Heathen(TM). Your entire life revolves around Church; all your connections to others are through Church. You have never been Outside, you don’t know anyone on the Outside. If you should leave, YOU LEAVE YOUR ENTIRE LIFE BEHIND. YOU HAVE NOTHING.
At which point, the threat of Casting Out and Shunning if you step out of line has real clout.
The only reason I was able to leave that End-of-the-World Shepherding Cult in 1976 was I had just made contact with SF fandom and discovered D&D. I had a connection OUTSIDE the Cult, so when I left I stepped from one web of connections into another. A LESS CONTROLLING, LESS THREATENING, MORE ACCEPTING other.
“RULERS OF TOMORROW! MASTER RACE!”
— Ralph Bakshi, Wizards
The Churches of Christ consider themselves not to be a denomination since they have no “headquarters” like the many branches of Baptists, Lutherans, etc.
But one thing they insist on is the phrase “Church of Christ” in their name (if not the ONLY name in the church). I would dig deeper to see what these churches are now teaching, and as such whether they really are part of that group or have left it.
For example, Max Lucado’s church was previously called Oak Hills Church of Christ, but no longer goes by that name, it is simply Oak Hills Church now. And Lucado has departed from two MAJOR CofC teachings: he no longer believes baptism by immersion is required for salvation and the church uses instrumental music.
My understanding is that the result of all that was: 1) the legal name of the denomination remains “Southern Baptist Convention”, 2) the term “Great Commission Baptist” is permitted to be used by any SBC church. Of course a church can choose a non-denominational sounding name (e.g. Summit Church, Village Church, Fellowship Church) and affiliate with SBC.
https://baptistnews.com/article/mormons-southern-baptist-zombies/#.X5hlqO1lBPY
How do you feel about southerners? If it is negative, you need to spend some time in the south and hopefully get rid of a few stereotypes.
Samuel Conner,
The confusion may be because a denomination can be either hierarchial or congregational.
The Roman Catholic Church, for example, is hierarchial. The RCC owns and controls everything at a local parish. So if all the members of St. Ann’s Parish in Coppell leave RCC en masse, they can’t take anything with them to form their own church; it remains the property of RCC.
The SBC, on the other hand, is congregational. The congregation owns and controls its own property (except in rare cases such as a deed restriction). So if the congregation of First Baptist Church of Dallas were to leave the SBC, they keep everything they have.
Independent Baptists are like Churches of Christ, there is no “headquarters”. The fear they have is that, over time, denominations tend to become more liberal in their theology (whether that is good or bad is not the issue), and IFB’s wanted to avoid that so they broke away.
I think that “Southern” remains in the name because over 90% of SBC churches and members live in the south (old Confederacy and border states such as Missouri and Kentucky). I don’t have official figures, but I think my guess is pretty close.
Yes, the SBC is mostly white (about 90%).
The National Baptist Convention is mostly Black (I have no numbers for them)
I suspect most new church plants are not in the South; thus, the young reformers don’t identify with that regional designation.
In SBC churches taken over by the New Calvinists, they have replaced congregational governance with elder rule polity. In many cases, the older non-Calvinist members have left or been excommunicated for challenging the stealth and deception. I suppose this effectively moves the ownership of the church to the new boys on the block, even though they didn’t pay for it … that was done by non-Calvinist congregations who faithfully gave to and worked in these churches over many years.
Max,
This is true but it wasn’t imposed by any “headquarters”. They may have had significant input and one could argue that they now have “de facto control”, but there’s nothing to stop an enterprising group from finding a loophole, getting their faction on the board and kicking out the others, etc.
Sowre-sweet Dayes,
Thank you. It seems like a lot of “management” for a congregation that size.
I think NAMB could find loopholes, too. They might use “church revitalization” loans to put clauses in the contracts about repayment or ownership of the property reverting. Maybe if certain conditions aren’t met like church growth. We saw Ezell get really mad over Cornerstone in Atlanta leaving, despite having no clause about that.
ishy,
In the past there have been deed restrictions placed on churches, which said that if the church left the SBC the property would revert to the local association.
Many of these were done in the 1970’s and 1980’s when the charismatics were infiltrating SBC churches (in DFW two major ones were taken over: Beverly Hills Baptist — this is where LuLu Roman of Hee Haw fame attended — and Shady Grove Baptist, which is now the Grand Prairie campus of Gateway Church — Robert Morris was once on staff there).
They could do that, and if NAMB provided funding I can see where they should be have some protection against a wayward congregation.
He can be a hot head … comes from being a former pastor and putting up with Southern Baptist knuckleheads, I guess. 🙂
There’s a madman behind all madness.
Modus operandi of the New Calvinists. Happens all the time in corporate America, but not very Christlike in the church.
A takeover game plan used by SBC’s “Old” Calvinists before Mohler’s “New” Calvinists came in more loudly: https://founders.org/library/quiet-revolution/
linda,
Well said. I could not agree more!
Max,
Bringing in something through deception isn’t the same as imposing it.
I do, however, thank you for the link provided. It shows the deceptiveness of Calvinists within the SBC and how they gain credibility: they take a legitimate concern/issue within the SBC (the large number of members who show little or no interest in spiritual matters), provides a credible basis (a lack of a genuine salvation experience), then shifts to a possible reason for such (their “salvation” was based on man-made teachings instead of “Biblical” teachings — the latter to mean Calvinism and the former to mean everything else from straight liberalism to conservative non-Calvinist theology) and finally the “solution” (which is always to introduce Calvinism under the guise of “sovereign grace”, “doctrines of grace”, etc. even though their view of God the Father is more like The Godfather — “I make you an offer you cannot refuse”).
Here’s some focus:
“Well, I heard Mister Young sing about her (southern man)
Well, I heard ol’ Neil put her down
Well, I hope Neil Young will remember
A Southern man don’t need him around, anyhow…”
— Lynyrd Skynyrd 1974 —
I don’t wholly disagree, but don’t wholly agree, either. The non-profit that was planted had one paid staff member (it was a coffee shop, so essentially a paid business manager). While the pastor was on the board for a time, the non-profit did become autonomous from the church (it also ended up closing after a few years).
Just my observations from the two pastors involved in these A29 churches, I think one was genuinely about the theology. When my husband and I left, burnt out and bitter, he was the only one who reached out with a genuine-sounding apology. He’s also the one who voluntarily stepped down when the church could no longer sustain two salaried pastors. He ended up leaving the church shortly after we did. He (and my husband, who is also reformed theologically-speaking) give me hope that not ALL reformed pastors are prideful and callous. Although maybe I should rethink that, since neither of these examples are pastors anymore… Hm…
Anyway, the second pastor was about image (cue “Everything Is Awesome” soundtrack) and control. IMO. He was a genuinely gifted speaker, but a very poor administrator. Ironically, if he could have let more control of administrative matters go to someone else and focused on preaching, my guess is the church would have grown exponentially. Instead, it folded about a year after he left (admittedly, covid probably had something to do with that, too).
Max,
This was a self identification survey so Pew wasn’t looking at the numbers provided by the SBC but only how the respondents replied. However people might very well identify as Southern Baptist on a survey but rarely step foot in a church (though a fairly hefty percent said they went almost weekly). From the SBC point of view the group was on the older side which does not bode well for the denomination.
The Unitarian Universalists had a somewhat different problem; about twice as many people claimed to be UUs as they have on the books.
Agreed.
We JUST left a Conservative Baptist church that I believe is in the process of being taken over. Long story short, the new senior pastor is an internal hire who’s been there 15ish years. Within WEEKS of being promoted, he’s preaching on “this thing a lot of you probably aren’t familiar with, *covenant* membership…” Few months later, exactly ONE WEEK AFTER the congregation voted to approve the annual budget, he announces the firing of the worship pastor (the ONLY outside hire on staff), and a “restructuring” of pastoral staff, AND that they’re taking the church in a new direction based on the “real” gospel with accountability and discipline and discipleship. My spidey senses were tingling.
Then the stinker passes on covid misinformation during a sermon. When I politely email and ask the source of said info, he literally tells me that I need to be more in the Word and less in the World, and that he hopes the devil doesn’t use my emails as a wedge between us. Refuses to discuss further unless in-person (no documentation, sneaky sneaky).
My husband, incensed, emails the entire elder board. Crickets. (Except for one who acknowledged the misinformation but said he can’t really do much about it, and who DIDN’T acknowledge the flagrant manipulation.)
Mind you, the elder board includes one person who said, “We’re all about holding leaders accountable, too, not like those other churches you hear of.” And another elder whose wife is a psychologist who wrote a book on narcissism.
Right under their noses, people. Right under their noses.
I was speaking there specifically from a leadership standpoint. There are pastors who are true believers, along with followers. But I don’t believe that’s what the leadership is about. If they really believed in the theology, they wouldn’t feel like they had to take everything by force, nor would they have started top-down in taking over the institutions then immediately remove financial accountability. They teach pastors how to do these things at the seminaries.
That’s the big problem with this movement. It has a lot of true believers. But what the leadership does in lying, changing messages, and target money-making institions makes me believe the heart of the movement isn’t about theology at all. The theology is just a tool to obtain minions and enforce control.
I feel like I am a broken record when I bring up my Auxano concerns, but I believe Auxano is a big factor in turning churches and ministries into businesses. I don’t know why Auxano is so popular. Probably because their approach seems to make sense and their consultants are so likeable. All kinds of churches and ministries use them.
Don’t know that I ever heard of them prior to now; didn’t even see anything on them in the archives here
I whined about Auxano in the comments on TWW in at least two posts, but there are no posts dedicated to Auxano. I ran into dead ends trying to find more info than what I posted here in the comments:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2018/07/09/church-cannibalism-and-ferengi-pastors-how-to-pac-man-a-churches-and-build-a-celebrity-based-kingdom/
Auxano was behind the rebranding of Mark Driscoll – https://www.willmancini.com/blog/same-grit-new-love-the-church-values-of-mark-driscolls-new-church-plant-the-trinity-church.
I’m guessing Auxano is also behind the rebranding of the SBC.
I resemble that remark. I have mentioned numerous times that I believe the Leadership Network had a major role in launching Driscoll, as well as cultivating and nurturing the early beginnings of the Emerging Church (Rob Bell, etc.) and New Calvinism. Neither of these movements can be considered a blessing on the American church. There have been funds, strategy, and influence in high places behind this madness from day one.
Thanks, Dee, for outing all the sarrn babdists. What’s next? #LadyGraham?
Well, give it a few years and the average age of Southern Baptists will change greatly. Between the New Calvinists running Boomers off and dwindling numbers of this generation as time goes on, the new reformers will have the SBC all to themselves.
Good Lord! Fake news is everywhere!! 🙂
Exactly. SBC has been easy pickins’ for the aberrant faith served up by the New Calvinists. Once called a “People of the Word”, the average Southern Baptist stopped reading it and praying as they ought a long time ago. Southern Baptists have become religious, but spiritually destitute. (I once knew a more godly and evangelistic people known as Southern Baptists, but I have to go back to the 1950s-60s to identify them … yep, I’m an ole guy)
Mark R,
Mark, you provide a good assessment of SBC life. I witnessed this evolution first hand as a Southern Baptist for 70 years.
Bingo.
Max,
Even the “Old Calvinists” are suspect.
I recently read a book about Jack Schaap (the son-in-law of Jack Hyles, who was busted for taking an underage girl across state lines for sex). The author (who has apparently left IFB for Calvinism) devoted an entire chapter to whether or not Schaap was a genuine believer.
Attempting to discern one’s genuine or false belief is something I prefer not to do. Ultimately we answer to God, not someone else, on this matter. But reading the chapter really opened my eyes as to the falseness of Calvinist theology.
In his “support” for his opinion (that Schaap was not a true believer), he didn’t state it was due to his sexual sins and unrepentant attitude toward them. It had nothing to do with his highly questionable theology. Nothing to do with how he attempted to defraud his friend (the author) in a business deal. And absolutely nothing to do with his unwavering demand for total loyalty.
No, the author’s argument was that Schaap professed to be a believer AT FIVE YEARS OLD. Why? Because according to the auditor 1) Schaap never had a “re-affirmation event later in his life” concerning that experience (this sounds more like Confirmation in the RCC than what Baptists of all shades believe) and 2) the author believes that someone that young is unable to “understand the elements of salvation and make a responsible decision”, nor does someone that young “have the capacity to offend God unto damnation”. (He even argues that a child has NO NEED to be saved at that age. Didn’t Jesus get real upset with his Apostles when they tried to shoo away the children?)
He then insinuates (based on Romans 7) that a full understanding of law and grace (of course, as Calvin defines them) is required before one can truly be saved. (Interestingly, when Saul — later Paul, who wrote Romans — was met by Jesus on the Damascus Road, Jesus didn’t tell him to “go read the Law, then when you fully understand, call out to Me” as the first step in Paul’s conversion experience. All Paul was required to do was to go into the city and wait further instructions; Ananias — not to be confused with the one who lied and died — upon meeting Paul, also never told him to read up on the Law.)
It appears to me that Calvinism adds to what is required. Didn’t Jesus criticize the Pharisees for adding burdens to people that they never placed on themselves?
Agreed. “Old” Calvinists in SBC = Founders Ministries. They have been trying for decades to return the SBC back to its Civil War Calvinist roots, ignoring the fact that majority Southern Baptists rejected that theology after the War and remained distinctly non-Calvinist in belief and practice for over 150 years.
The ole boys may not be in agreement with the methods and message of their militant neobrethren, but they put up with them since they are on a common mission … to Calvinize the largest Protestant non-Calvinist denomination in America. When the dust is settled – when SBC is completely Calvinized – there will be a war between the Founders and the Mohlerites on who will sit on the throne (put your money on Mohler). There is already tension between the two factions. It’s all so un-Christlike.
As Christians, we are challenged to “test the spirits to see whether they are from God.” It’s a no-brainer … the New Calvinists don’t talk about Jesus much … their vocabulary is all about sovereign “God” … it’s another gospel.
Yeah, it’s the old “You have to be regenerated before you can be saved, and only the elect can be regenerated” Calvinist argument. They are like termites in a yo-yo with their defense of reformed theology – the same old debate that has been rejected by 90+% of Christendom for the last 500 years. They have redefined grace which is not Grace.
Indeed. This time around, those who do that will face Jesus’ judgment, not criticism. Be careful little ears what you hear.
POLISHING-THE-SHAFT SCHAAP?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8it-0T-z4s
(I didn’t even need to punch in the whole search string, just “polishing the sh” and it came up with “polishing the shaft sermon”. It’s that viral.
You can say that about the Rapture Ready (any minute now…) crowd as well.
The smaller the rowboat, the bigger the admiral.
The smaller the pond, the bigger a fish you can be.
“I’M KING OF EVERYTHING I SEE!”
— Dr Seuss, “Yertle the Turtle”
I do know that White and Black Baptists (like White and Black Eveangelicals) are two different church cultures.
Oh yeah … one demonstrates a whole lot more life than the other one, like they are happy to be in church and with each other.
Hasn’t stopped people from trying. Whether by Theological Nitpicking or Private Reveation visions, there’s a simple constant:
“MINE IS GENUINE, YOURS IS FALSE! FALSE!! FALSE!!!”
I had my fill of One-Upmanship games in high school.
Do you know how this works ? I heard it mentioned a few times years ago, but the information on what the Leadership Network does and how it operates was frustratingly difficult to track down.
Through its “Young Leader Network”, the Leadership Network has trained and financed various “Christian” leaders and movements in the U.S. It was instrumental in putting Hybels’ on the map with his “seeker-friendly” ministry (= Christianity Lite). They also helped promote potty-mouth Driscoll and his innovative way of doing church. Several ministers and ministries with LN roots have fallen over the years.
A snapshot of how LN influence works: http://www.driscollcontroversy.com/?page_id=9
And there is an Auxano link. Auxano rebranded Driscoll and also branded the Leadership Network. See the list of logos on Auxano’s site: https://auxano.com/why-auxano. Auxano used to have a list of the churches and ministries who used them. But they no longer show that list. I wonder why not?
I found the list:
http://auxano-auxano.iddigital.me/clients/
The Catholics have “skeletons in their closet”, yet they never have changed their denominations’ name.
Because as of now It Never Existed, Comrade.
FAKE NEWS!!! DOUBLEPLUSCRIMETHINK!!!
Thanks, have found it very difficult to find information on this (not helped by ‘leadership network’ being two very generic terms).
Jack, I am by no means an expert but have been experiencing this myself for the past few years. You raise a great question. How are they doing it? From my experience, they don’t talk about Calvinism. They are attractive, young, cool-looking (think fitted clothes-ha!) and don’t mention Calvinism. Most churchgoers don’t have Calvinism on their radar so they don’t think to ask about it. In my church, the pastor literally will not tell you if he is a Calvinist because he wants to “mimic the tension in the Bible”. So I think people on pastor search committees often dont know they are getting a Calvinist. Also, I am having a terrible time finding a strong, Bible teaching SBC that is NOT Calvinist. In my area, when I’ve asked friends who go to certain SBC churches if their church is Calvinist, they either look at me blankly or say I don’t know. Then they go off and find out that “the pastor would be happy for you to come in and talk about it with you.” They will not be give a yes answer. I’m not sure if this helps you understand how it’s happening. But I think the simple answer is in my experience, most members do not believe in Calvinism, and they probably aren’t even aware it is a widely held view, so they don’t ask about it.
There are SBC church search committees in my area which asked pastoral candidates point blank if they were Calvinist and were lied to. After the young reformers took the pulpit by stealth and deception, they then proceeded to Calvinize those churches slowly – a little error here, a little error there. This is happening all over the SBC in traditional churches. The New Calvinist rebels think they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the ‘real’ gospel (= Calvinism) … so they justify deception for the good of the movement. The new reformers certainly have a passion, but it is a misplaced passion. They will be judged for doing this to the Body of Christ.
You have Al Mohler to thank for that. He lead the rebellion which has resulted in New Calvinist control of all SBC entities: seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, church planting program, and a growing number of Calvinized (once traditional) SBC churches. In many places, non-Calvinist Southern Baptists in the pew ain’t got a clue … so they finance the takeover unknowingly. (I know this to be true – I ‘was’ a Southern Baptist for 70 years)
Regarding the Calvinization of the SBC, the average Southern Baptist is uninformed, misinformed, or willingly ignorant. Most of the non-Calvinists I know still in SBC churches are the latter. I fault 47,000+ pastors in SBC churches for not having “family meetings” with their members years ago to discuss the trend toward Calvinism in the denomination … it’s too late now.
Gin, I’m sorry to tell you, but I think the SBC is past the point of going back. All the seminaries teach Calvinist theology now and they also have classes in how to “reform” a non-Calvinist church. They turn out mainly New Calvinist pastors now and that will change all the churches eventually.
The best way to tell if a church has been reformed is by their website. They can’t really help themselves but to express it in some way. The easiest way is not by looking at the beliefs, but the staff. If they have elders, they are most likely Calvinist and already reformed. The other ways you can tell is if they mention signing a covenant to join, the word Gospel capitalized (and mentioned often), they require small groups as a member, or by a Calvinist predestination clause in their beliefs.
Good list to determine if New Calvinism is lurking in a church. But don’t forget that the “pastor” will be toting and quoting an ESV Bible!
There is no more ‘Christ’, there is only CALVIN.
CALVIN who alone Has God All Figured Out.
This is commonly called “by the time you wake up, It’s All Over But the Screaming”.
Again, IT’S ALL OVER BUT THE SCREAMING.
Like filing into the “showers” and waking up to what’s going on only when the Zyklon B crystals pour in.