“One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
Charles M. Blow
Cedarville University’s Core Values
CEDARVILLE UNIVERSITY COVENANT
We are a community of believers accountable to one another, called to reflect the character of Jesus Christ and to be obedient to His Word. We will be faithful in our support for the local church and in our practice of spiritual disciplines. We will practice biblical principles of encouragement, exhortation, and reconciliation. We commit ourselves to integrity, kindness, purity, and self-control and to continual growth in scholarship, leadership, and service.
Therefore, as members of the Cedarville community, we regularly affirm our commitment to the Cedarville Covenant with this pledge: We will love God and others, live with integrity, and pursue excellence in all we do.”
-Cedarville University Student Handbook, page 5.
Below is a video of Dr. Thomas White, President of Cedarville University, addressing students at the first chapel service of the new school year (Monday, August 17, 2020). White advises the students that “We as a university will be a university that cares well for victims. We have to, we must, and we will.”
Yesterday I heard from a trusted friend who keeps me apprised of the latest happenings at Cedarville University. My friend told me that all chairs and deans received an email last week (one week after White informed the students that Cedarville University will be a university that cares well for victims) saying that the Cedarville University Counseling Center has never done anything wrong and that none of the students’ stories are true. The chairs and deans were instructed to advise all the faculty in their department meetings Friday morning (8/28) of this news.
Let that sink in.
Apparently, administration officials at Cedarville are labeling anyone who has spoken of the poor counseling obtained through the Cedarville University Counseling Center as liars.
I would ask the readers to review Julie Roys posts on counseling received at Cedarville University and judge for yourself whether their stories are credible, or if you think they are liars.
Former Cedarville Student: I was told, “It was a stupid decision to go to the ER for being suicidal”
One may rightly question if top officials from Cedarville University are exempt from the Cedarville Covenant that students must sign; specifically, the line that states “live with integrity.”
I have had several students, both current and past, contact me wanting to share their counseling experiences – these experiences show that Cedarville University’s claims that Cedarville University Counseling Center has never done anything wrong are egregious.
Below is an account from a former student that appears to contradict the “company line” coming from CU administration.
“I went to Cedarville fall semester 2013, my first semester was Dr. White’s first semester. The school I experienced was very different than the one I had visited. I was already struggling with my mental health and I thought Cedarville would be a place I could go closer to God and receive some Christian support, encouragement, and guidance. I called and scheduled an appointment with counseling services during the summer and had my first appointment the first week of classes. At the time I wasn’t doing well with my eating disorder and on my first Sunday I almost blacked out when we got home from church. The counselor I saw was great and really helped me get back on track with eating regularly and eating cooked foods again as I had been on a low fat, fully raw, vegan diet and a maximum of 100 calories a day. I was also struggling with depression and self-harm.
I got pretty close with our debate coach early on in the year and in October he suddenly stopped responding to texts. Our captains and a few of the open debaters knew what was going on, but they weren’t allowed to tell the rest of the team. The administration decided that 2 days before finals started would be the perfect time for our captains to tell us that our coach was on leave and if we spoke with him or told anyone what was going on he would stop getting paid.
2 days later I found out that my RD was being fired because she sometimes preached at the college student service her church held.
Another 2 days later I found out my therapist was leaving.
I cried every day for two weeks. It felt like everyone I was close to was being ripped away from me for no good reason. I began spiraling. I was put on a waitlist for counseling services and never saw anyone the rest of the year. I went the whole spring semester without a counselor.
In March after our last debate tournament of the year, I had a detailed plan for how I was going to commit suicide. I told one of my debate captains I was close with and my RA. During the debate tournament, Mindy May called and spoke with me. She determined I was fine and didn’t need to go to the hospital. Somehow one of my debate captains convinced her to talk to me again when we got back to campus from the tournament. My captains and I grabbed dinner at Subway when we got back and while we were eating one of them got a phone call for us to go back to my dorm. She came in and told me what was going on and we all went back to Faith. John Wood and Mindy May were there waiting for us. We met in the common room of Faith where there were two other students doing homework, one of whom lived next door to me. One of my captains was allowed in on the meeting to support me. We all talked about my mental health for a bit and during the chat, John Wood found a random box of crayons. This started him down a bunny trail about how people west of the Mississippi pronounce crayons one way and people East of the Mississippi pronounce it a different way. At the end of the conversation, he said we should take a vote around the crayons to determine if I needed to go to the hospital for an evaluation. John Wood is not a mental health professional and Mindy May was not licensed in Ohio at the time. Neither of them could ethically or legally make that decision. Had I been in a better mental state and was not still a student there, I would have filed a report against Mindy May and she would have permanently lost her license. This is a major breach of ethics that the APA would not have taken lightly. My debate captains were allowed to take me to Kettering which also should not have been the case. When you make the decision that someone needs a crisis evaluation, you have them taken to the hospital via ambulance or police.
I ended up spending a week in the hospital and was sexually assaulted by another patient while I was there. I was still on the waiting list for counseling services, so an appointment was made for me in Xenia for counseling once I got out of the hospital. The appointment was with a male and I didn’t have a car, so getting to appointments was difficult and ultimately ended up not working out. I was struggling with severe PTSD, having nightmares and flashbacks every day and did not have a professional to help me. I felt incredibly judged for being on medication and ended up stopping my antidepressant. A day or two after I got back to campus, I had to see Dean Stowers and sign the document that I later posted to the group that I am sure you have seen now. (See below) I cannot put into words how hurt I was by this. It felt like I was being labeled a criminal by the administration. I was told if I refused to sign it I would not be allowed to live on campus. I signed it under coercion. I immediately told my debate captains and we met at one of their houses off-campus to discuss it. Thankfully there are a lot of loopholes we quickly discovered that allowed me to still utilize my support system, but that didn’t fix the message forcing me to sign the NDA sent me. I was no longer a student, one of God’s chosen in need of support and guidance, but a danger that others needed to be protected from. Even though I utilized my support system I felt guilty doing so, like I was wrong for doing so and too much for anyone to handle. It sent the message that mental health is taboo and different than other health concerns, that people struggling shouldn’t burden their friends by asking for help. Six years later I still struggle with feeling this way and I hadn’t before my experience at Cedarville. I have incredible anxiety when even contemplating reaching out to someone for support, even when that person is my wife and I often feel like I am too much for others to handle and a burden on them. With therapy, it’s getting better now, but it is still incredibly difficult.
Below are several brief posts by Cedarville students, past and present.
I believe I have presented enough evidence to show that the claim made by CU administration that “Cedarville University Counseling Center has never done anything wrong and that none of the students’ stories are true,” is itself untrue. Living with integrity? Not so much.
I will withhold judgment on whether Dr. White’s claim of “We as a university will be a university that cares well for victims. We have to, we must, and we will.” was sincere or merely window dressing. So far, it’s off to an inauspicious beginning.
first
Here with go with the analogies to Soviet Union again! Only in a totalitarian institution/ organization/ state can “proclamation” such as this be made!
Typo again.. “Here we go”… not “with”
Also, NO respectable institution will go around and make such absolute statements… nothing is never “perfect”, especially when dealing with the human mind…..
This student’s parents should have obtained inpatient psychiatric treatment for her instead of sending her to college. The student was repeatedly suicidal, in I’ll health due to eating disorders,suffering from PTSD, and claims she was sexually assaulted at a local hospital. She affirms a history of mental illness. She should have been medicated and hospitalised, not matriculated at any university.
God bless the student here who faced serious incompetence at this institution. This story is an intense journey with many entitled “professionals” not doing their job, and clearly out of their range of expertise in dealing with real student lives.
There are many twists and turns to the institution’s negligence, but then evil is complicated.
Good, not so (complicated). Do the right thing. Stay in your range and bring in trained experts who know their field and can address real life with expertise, for the betterment of all. Some “xians” can’t handle that – expertise of others, perhaps others out of their “xian” network, out of their “xian” hierarchy.
Perhaps the administration senses a need to create victims before it can care for them.
I had a very similar reflexive reaction. Mine took the form of noting the similarity to Solzhenitsyn’s short story about the wartime internal security apparatus, titled “We Never Make Mistakes.”
Given the multiple reports of prolonged waits for counseling, it would appear that the CU counseling department is seriously understaffed.
Is there a shortage of qualified candidates for open posts, or is there a cap on the head count of people that the university is willing to hire for this “caring well” function?
“Personnel is policy”, and the shortage of counselors (not to mention their evident lack of needed skills and personal qualities for the task) would appear to belie the stated intentions to care for people.
From the OP:
My first thought about the CU administration and “counsellors” was: “Jesus had lots to say about hypocrites and whited selpulchres….’
And then I wondered how many other unknown and invisible CU students have been victims of the same horrendous administrative and “counsellor” “caring well” mess.
Individuals who were already vulnerable and looking for help received anything but support and caring well.
I am so, so sorry….I wish I had better words….the best I can say is “My heart breaks when I read these stories.” and “I believe the students.”
I agree.
Samuel Conner,
I’m not even remotely defending Cedarville here, but I will note that there’s a desperate shortage of mental health professionals everywhere.
Samuel Conner,
Before it can ostentatiously blaspheme Christ’s name.
https://www.cedarville.edu/offices/president/board-of-trustees
Any “curiosities” on list?
In my experience – and I have some – this is not limited to CU, or even evangelical colleges. As Samuel Connor points out, this is a problem that pervades society (and, may I add, history). Where evangelical institutions handicap themselves is the requirement to subscribe to a statement of beliefs – not just any statement, either. Theirs. Professional competence is not the most important item, thus the depth of the candidate pool for any job is shallow.
Evidence aside, the claim is a logical fallacy. Automatically false.
They can’t even handle basic logic, much less complex human issues.
Dee, typically I’m 100% on board with your posts… however, this time there is a critical piece of “evidence” missing… a screenshot or picture of the actual email that went out to the deans and chairs proclaiming CU’s innocence. That’s the evidence on which this entire post is based. Can your “trusted friend” provide that email? If not, this is all hearsay. BTW, I’m an alum and former CU employee.
ishy,
The sentences of Todd’s paragraph that stood out for me regarding the CU administrating and its “counsellors” this morning were: Living with integrity? Not so much.
Of your comment, the words that stood out for me were: They can’t even handle….complex human issues.
Tyoo…”administrating” should be “administration”
R,
Yes! And, if we, as a country, treated metal illness equal to physical illness ( bith morally and financially) we would have less social problems. I am not so stupid to think it would solve all our problems, but it would lesson them. I remember being an undergrad about 40 years ago at UC Berkeley. Right next to South campus was an out patient metal health hospital, and there was a large number of “street” people that had significant metal illness that were out patients there and lived on the street. In the previous decade Governor Reagan had closed the metal hospitals, and they turned the non-violent people out “on the street”…. While these people contributed to the “color/culture” of the area, to this day the image of these people still bothers me…. and projects an image of “throw away people”…. combine this with the Moonies, Hare Krishna, hippies, communist, greens, druggies, yuppies, religious right groups, etc, etc, one gets quite a “education” of the human condition..
While I am not a psych expert , I do have a background in psych nursing.
What I think I see here is an understaffed counseling center, one that appears over it head in dealing with real serious psych issues and probably relying a lot on biblical ( nouthetic ) counseling which can be healthful in some cases but in many instances NOT.
The problem of short staffed college counseling is almost epidemic in our local universities in my area from what I hear. Students today have a lot of pressures that were IMHO not prevalent 30 years or more ago. They are hurting.
Solutions don’t seem that hard , hire more Christian licensed staff ( do they have to walk the reformed , stringent line or can they just love Jesus) , since most students have insurance , contract out with a local psych hospital or agency
to help streamline admittance. What seems to have happened is that the administration cleaned house of some caring believers who helped the above to function in her school setting because they didn’t meet the party’s viewpoint leaving the student without some strong attachments to other, they wiped out her support system.
This university seems to be run like a indoctrination camp, ie North Korea, there can be no dissent from the party line, it is what is most valued , not having a loving Christ modeling staff. This is what often causes psych problems, this rigid, you have to conform to every rule and doctrine process. I had a roommate at a Christian college that as I was walking into our dorm room was cutting his wrists, I took the knife away, called for help and went to the hospital with him ( first week there) , my roommate came from a very rigid, legalistic background. To it’s credit that school had a vibrant counseling office, they even contacted me to see if I needed help after witnessing the event. We took the student to the hospital, I went along the dean and RA, he got treatment and returned a year later and did well. The school even checked in with me to see if I needed any help in dealing with what I witnessed.
It was a nurturing place.
Just make the campus one of having the compassion of Christ. Pick RA’s who exude the love of Christ, open door policy, here’s a novel one, a president who is always available to chat. If they are building him a bigger home for more entertaining , than President White, one day a week , have some students, particularly ones who are lonely or isolated ( talk to the RA’s, whose lonely, seems down etc) over to your home to eat with others and try to create home away from home atmosphere. ( I have been invited to professor’s homes with other students for dinner, meant a lot )
I know a Christian college president who knows the name of every student on campus and is always about campus greeting them, talking to them and getting to know them. Give freedom to the staff to love the students, get away from making them toe narrow doctrinal lines. Then you start to have a college that is truly Christian. It isn’t that hard. The Bible shows you the way.
Leadership flows top down, it would grieve me to know that these things were occurring on my campus under my leadership, that students were being hurt, losing their faith and leaving as broken individuals.
Sorry for repeating myself up above talking about the campus reaching out to me, don’t have a computer just a iphone. Makes it hard to see I write.
Chuck,
I went to a Christian college like that, and I was telling my wife this morning that the President of the college when I was there did exactly what you said, was an avdemic, and spent the last 30 years of his career their…. and died in a home near the school…. there is a bronze statue of him and his wife on campus…. As far as I know this person was the opposite of Page Patterson, Al Mohler, White, and “Jr”…
Chuck,
A thoughtful and thought-provoking comment.
Perhaps people involved with K-12 could benefit from reading your comment….
The severity at the time the student enrolled is not clear. The assault took place after the student matriculated. It seems plausible that CU mishandled a manageable situation, and it turned into a full-blown crisis.
When people turn 18, parents have limited rights unless the adult child is an imminent danger to self or others. It is generally believed that adults in crisis should ask for help rather than having it forced on them. This student asked for help.
And crises can happen to ANYONE. When I was a student, a dorm burned down. Trust me, kids in fine mental health were severely traumatized. I knew kids who escaped the fire. Some still suffered years later.
Moreover, it’s a fair bet that many CU students have been raised in exceedingly strict homes. Their mental health might improve once they have a tiny bit of adult autonomy.
If you have intimate knowledge of this student’s mental health before matriculation, please feel free to say so. In any event, I hope that your own child never needs skills that exceed those found at CU.
Poking around the CU .edu site, it appears there are 4 staff counselors. I don’t know if these are full-time employees or part-time contractors.
https://www.cedarville.edu/offices/counseling-services/about
Is 4 full-time counselors enough for a school of CU’s size?
The counseling staff gender mix is skewed female 3:1.
I don’t see evidence in the listed credentials of dominance of nouthetic or biblical counseling in their training (of course, it is possible that they are required to counsel this way as a matter of university policy); 1 is a graduate of Grace College, but earned her MA at Ashland Seminary, which I don’t think is in the NC/BC mind-hive. Another is from Colorado Christian University, which in past was I think more influenced by Larry Crabb than by Jay Adams or David Powlison. I don’t have a sense of what CCU’s curriculum is like now.
Only one of the four reports state licensure. There are no claims of credentialling by the ABC.
A great angelic host in Heaven stand in amazement, eyes opened wide, jaws dropped to the golden street … astonished that Thomas White is still in a leadership position at CU!
THE PARTY CAN DO NO WRONG.
EES PARTY LINE, COMRADES!
Reminder, that just months ago White & Co. had Anthony Moore in charge of a semester-long course on “Counseling & Mentoring Men”!
screenshot:
https://julieroys.com/cedarville-u-fires-professor-with-history-of-admitted-sexual-abuse/course_counseling-mentoring-men/
A few key points here:
1. Mindy May is still not licensed in the state of Ohio. As you can see on the pages of each counselor on staff, those who have state licensure have that listed there. Those who don’t, don’t. Joy Childs is the only CU counselor with state licensure. The rest are not licensed in the state of Ohio. And neither is Mindy May. See https://www.cedarville.edu/offices/counseling-services/about and https://www.cedarville.edu/offices/student-life-and-christian-ministry-division/leadership-team/may-mindy.
Mindy May, Thomas White, and Jon Wood are nouthetic all the way (note where May earned her graduate degrees–SWBTS under Paige Patterson–she, too, is cut from Patterson’s “break her down” cloth). White even forced the psychology department several years ago to interview nouthetic counselors for hire. None of them would agree to work at CU because they said others in the psychology department were practicing, gasp!, psychology, which to them, was “satanic.” The psychology professors then felt relieved because they didn’t have to hire any of them!
2. Suicides have also happened, but they have not yet been reported on any site. Let us repeat: Suicides have happened. One suicide was by a former CU staff member’s daughter. That former staff member’s daughter sought counseling at CU’s counseling services. The former staff member has said, “I have no idea what they told her and I don’t want to know.” The pain is so great that these families have no energy or emotional strength to investigate what went wrong in CU’s counseling center. (The staff member resigned not long after her daughter’s suicide.) One day, however, there will be a family that hires a lawyer and investigates–and sues. It’s only a matter of time.
3. Remember: Dr. Thomas White helped Paige Patterson cover up Megan Lively’s rape in 2003 at SEBTS. White claims he doesn’t remember Liveyl, but. Lively absolutely remembers him. He was in the room with Patterson, helping him “break her down.” Joy White blamed/shamed Lively thereafter under the guise of “discipleship” meetings.
White has still not acknowledged or apologized for lying about Anthony Moore’s Texas crimes and lying about what faculty knew in his blog. (He only apologized for hiring Moore.) Yet, Jason Lee has been demoted (from dean to professor), while White remains President. Marc Sweeney has been placed on leave for the year (Dr. Aleda Chen is the interim dean of pharmacy now), yet, again, White remains President. See the pattern here?
This administration lacks both the moral compass and the compassion to run an ethical, fully informed counseling center for CU students.
This alone should disqualify Dr. White from a leadership role at a Christian institution. The Anthony Moore situation just pushed him over the top. Yet, he is still at CU!
(the benefit of a yes-man board of trustees and a disgusting display of power within the Christian Industrial Complex)
I’m sorry … I know we aren’t to judge by the outward appearance … but Dr. White just has “the look” … maybe it’s all the grease he puts on his hair.
It’s Friday. I’ve had a weary week reading about pool boy perversions, yes-men elders, celebrity cults, and slimy leaders at Christian institutions. Think I’ll go fishing …
The outward appearance is highly calculated, eh? The hair, coach-like Nike shirt, earpiece, tone of voice, gestures, are all supposed to project authority. There’s an apology for something, and a promise to do better, and then he takes a knee and shuts his eyes.
Whatever it was, we’d all better forgive and submit!
Reminder, the presidential search committee that brought Thomas White to Cedarville was chaired by bigtime ‘nouthetic counseling’ advocate Randy Patten:
https://www.cedarville.edu/-/media/Files/PDF/President/Thomas-White-Inauguration-Program.pdf
[pdf page 11]
“Rev. Randy Patten, Trustee, Chair of the Presidential Search Committee”
Rev. Patten was then Executive Director of ‘nouthetic counseling’ outfit NANC!
https://www.biblicalcounselingcoalition.org/2012/10/22/the-nanc-leadership-transition-part-one-a-bcc-interview-with-heath-lambert/
Heath Lambert: “Randy Patten will remain the Executive Director until October 1, 2013. At that time I will assume leadership of NANC and Randy will become NANC’s Director of Training and Advancement.”
Avoid yachts.
Good one! 🙂
… and cries without tears. They all read the same playbook. Unfortunately, their followers are so gullible that they buy the counterfeit thinking it is genuine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84thE0FI83c
The thing that strikes me about this brief statement is that there is an admission that “mistakes were made” and an implicit admission of something on the spectrum of “sin” or perhaps “dereliction of duty” (implied, I think, by the request for “foregiveness”).
Something serious must have happened to elicit these admissions (regardless of whether the statements are actually sincere, or simply “damage control”).
I am tempted to interpret this as evidence that the CU administration is feeling heat of some kind.
I suspect that the shortage of candidates is self-inflicted. You probably have to go to the right church and sign a statement of faith that might not be helpful to effectively treat students with mental health concerns. This is seriously going to limit the number of people who will want to work for CU. As for “cap”, CU probably also doesn’t pay the market rate.
To me, the example in the video clip is associated with the staged performance put on by people who have been coached in how to evoke the image of a compassionate, caring, clean-cut person of integrity, demonstrating how they are attempting to rectify wrongs done by others (rather than acknowledging the staged performance is one of the first steps in the process of blame-shifting to others, usually the victims).
Julie Roys has published a very enlightening post by Dr. Julia Dahl in which Dr. Dahl analyzes Dr. Thomas White’s apology. I highly recommend the article.
https://julieroys.com/cedarville-presidents-apology-image-repair/
“Dr. Julia Dahl is an image repair analyst and advocate for abuse survivors. She’s also an assistant professor of pathology at the University of Michigan Medical School and the associate director of Michigan Medicine Laboratories.”
College counseling services around the US have been under strain since covid reached our country. The pandemic is affecting young adults perhaps more than any other age group.
To anyone who is considering ending their life: please reach out for help.
When one of my dear ones was in crisis, I got very good support from the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. Their URL is https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
The toll-free number: 1-800-273-8255
Sometimes callers do get put on hold, but for me it was worth the wait. I got advice to help me through one of the scariest days of my life. I also learned about local resources I could turn to.
Some jurisdictions have a mobile mental health team that will visit a person in crisis. This is an alternative to calling 911, although sometimes that is necessary.
Hospital emergency rooms can help. If possible, an advocate should stay with the patient.
Urgent care clinics can sometimes help too. You can call them and ask if a physician on call has a background in helping with severe depression.
One change in 2020 is the availability of telehealth appointments. These can make it easier for a patient to seek counseling, although an in-person visit can be more informative.
My own dear one is doing much better now. People can recover, with skilled help and emotional support.
It’s tough to watch that video of Thomas White, but I must admit, it’s an Oscar-worthy job of acting.
He acted his way through SBC all the way to the President’s office at CU! … a “Patterson”-worthy job of acting … there’s many more Patterson-boys in lead roles throughout SBC. Scary!
And we all know the Koine Greek word for “actor performing a role”, don’t we?
A regular repertory company/major studio stable of Hypokritoi…
In reading through the article, the deconstruction of the sentences and phrases, it was like reading descriptions of ideas or feelings I often can’t put into words when reading through similar written information.
I wish I had the ability to do such deconstruction!!!
Max,
Max, if I lived anywhere within 100 miles I’d come join you. I am soo, sooo, sooooo tired of all this. I was incredibly disheartened by John MacArthur telling everyone last weekend there is NO pandemic. Right. The whole world has come to a standstill and most country borders are closed because this is a conspiracy to shut down churches. Sure. MacArthur’s church especially. One of my oldest friends is a long time attender at that church and thinks his pastor is standing up for what’s right!
Maybe I just need a day off. A looooooong day where I sit by the river and watch the fish. Yes, even just watching them would do me good.
Drink the cool-aid commard?
From my experience with LU, these jobs are also usually poorly paid and may not offer much security. I get the impression from White’s hiring of Mindy May that there was some sort of quid pro quo going on, too, even though she was not qualified at all for the job. Even a biblical counselor with little training still might make more at a church or in their own practice than at a Christian university.
I also think they just really don’t care about the mental health of students. Any problems you have are a lack of faith, not a result of physiology or chemical imbalance. Therefore, students are dismissed because it’s believed they just aren’t reading their Bibles or praying and being “rebellious”.
What helps you these days?
I mainly stay home, and fortunately our household gets along. Routine includes daily walks, texting and emailing friends, and checking in with TWW. I also have creative outlets, including volunteer research projects.
My guilty pleasure is watching live feeds of kittens on a YouTube channel called TinyKittens HQ: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeL2LSl91k2VccR7XEh5IKg
My other guilty pleasure is watching NHL games, go figure. 😉
I have totally lost a longtime friend from there over the obnoxious conspiracy theories coming out of that church. I don’t think Grace is really standing up for anything but the fear that they might lose money.
Of course, they didn’t hesitate to grab a million dollar PPP loan from this “hoax” virus…
I LOVE TinyKittens! I’m still sad about Mason’s death, but his story is amazing!
I also like watching Key’ush the stunt dog. He’s a Husky mix who talks like a human. Of course, half his words are “waffle” (his favorite food), but he’s probably more understandable than I am…
I’d love to go with ya’ Max.
Catch a nice bunch o’ Crappies, fire up the outside fryer, beer batter, you know the drill!
You talking about the board of trustees? 😉
No, they don’t.
So long as they can say (and make it stick) that it’s just a ‘sin’ problem, they’ll keep their traction and it’ll be business as usual.
The analysis of TW’s statement by Dr Dahl linked by
Todd Wilhelm,
is compelling and helpful.
I am scratching my head a little, however.
I may be mis-remembering, but IIRC when the AM scandal burst into broad daylight some time ago, the scandal was basically about TW bringing a known hazardous person onto campus. At the time, IIRC, it was publicly affirmed that there was no known evidence that AM had harmed anyone in the CU community.
Now, some time later, there is in TW’s quasi-mea culpa mention of the importance of prevention and victims and caring well for prevention. No details, of course. But this seems to me to imply that something preventable happened in the CU community that resulted in someone’s victimization.
Am I justified in intuiting that this language suggests that the CU investigation uncovered evidence that there were some CU victims in this case?
Just trying to make sense of the different bits of content that are present in the TW statement. It seems to me that if the only thing that went wrong in the AM case is that he was hired at all(and the deception surrounding that), then quite of bit of what TW said in that statement would not need to have been said.
🙂
Just speculation on my part, but I think CU/Thomas White are either being cautious because of a lawsuit already served or potential lawsuits in the future. I would think Anthony Moore would have a strong case.
Todd Wilhelm,
Boy, if that’s the motive behind the stated concern over prevention and care for victims, it’s practically lower than Dr. Dahl’s interpretation of image-repair. It’s just cynical posturing for legal advantage.
#metoo
Dr. Julia Dahl is really good. She has also analyzed Bryan Loritts’ explanation of what went on at his former church in Memphis.
https://julieroys.com/podcast/pt-2-analyst-exposes-deceptive-tactics-used-by-bryan-loritts/
Sarah,
I don’t want to say too much here, but my source of information is intelligent and trustworthy. If you don’t wish to believe my story that’s your perogative. I generally like to include primary source documents, but knowing how the White regime cracks down on dissenters it doesn’t surprise me that the memo was only sent to chairs and deans with the instruction to brief their subordinates. This way when the memo is published there will be a manageable amount of individuals to interogate to determine who the leaker is and then take the appropriate action action against the individual.
You may wish to read this story:
https://web.archive.org/web/20200904180649/https://rightingamerica.net/locking-it-down-at-cedarville/
https://www.cedarville.edu/academic-schools-and-departments/history-and-government/faculty-staff/mach-thomas
As I read through the transcript, what kept replaying in my mind as I read was Bryan Lorrits’ voice saying “It’s all about me….”.
Dr. Dahl provided a much more thorough explanation… 🙂
Todd Wilhelm,
Just read the analysis of President’s White’ “apology”. Either White is VERY smart, in a deceptive way, or he is getting coached on how to talk about the “Moore situation”… I am open to another alternative..
Jeffrey,
If you watch his initial apology it appears to me that White is reading off a teleprompter. I suspect he is being coached by CU lawyers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84thE0FI83c
Todd Wilhelm,
My thoughts as well… Such Christ like behavior….. sigh…..
Fisher,
There will be crappie fillets and hush puppies frying in peanut oil in the backyard this weekend! However, I will not use beer in the batter … I still have a remnant of Southern Baptist in me that won’t allow me to touch the stuff 🙂 Instead, I have a batter that has a spicy kick to it.
Wishing all the Wartburgers a Happy Holiday Weekend!
(TM)
Several people mentioned a form of counseling called “Nouthetic counseling”!
I had never heard of such a thing, so I Googled and found this at Wikipedia:
Nouthetic counseling (Greek: noutheteo, to admonish) is a form of evangelical Protestant pastoral counseling based solely upon the Bible and focused on Christ. It repudiates mainstream psychology and psychiatry as humanistic, fundamentally opposed to Christianity, and radically secular.
To me, this rejection of science and evidence-based medical services is why we can’t travel to any other country right now; why we have nearly 190,000 people dead of a virus; why people don’t wear simple masks to prevent passing the infection.
And Nouthetic counseling won’t get you licensed to practice anywhere, I don’t think. A college needs to believe in science, or they are in the wrong business. Making up a fancy Greek term for reading the Bible to cure mental problems is just wrong when we have a century of research into treating mental illness, and even medical drug treatments for many well defined mental problems.
My wife has been seeing psychiatrists for decades, and when her meds begin to not work as well, they will modify a prescription. Without that medical care she probably wouldn’t be with us, wouldn’t be capable of relationships, of caring for herself. She managed to be successful in a high-stress career, although PTSD haS been an issue at times.
My first pass at college in 1968-69 a good friend down the hall just disappeared one day. No students knew what happened, to this day I wonder how he is doing. Evidently his parents saw something going wrong and he vanished, perhaps into treatment, that was before medication was common in the mental health field.
These people running this college are in it for the money and the power. A shame. They are harming young people who need help and don’t care about their students at all. Covering up abuse and their lack of care for those who need it badly. It will all come home to roost eventually.
Yes the whole thing is staged … fake news. A discerning eye and ears to hear can easily pick up on the false humility. White should have practiced a bit more. But the CU family bought it (he still has his job) … not exactly an Oscar performance, but good enough.
Thomas White’s video to parents of prospective students says the following:
-He knows tuition is higher at a Christian colleges, and is determined to “keep the cost low.” Switcheroo! It’s not low now.
-He says 50%-80% of Evangelical young adults who go to college leave the church in the first year or two. The Cedarville solution is to immerse students, having Bible content in every class and constant religious activities. CU graduates are supposed to move on to local church “excited.”
-AFTER this he talks about academic quality, helpfully saying that CU graduates will not steal from their employers. (I guess he thinks most colleges have a major in Embezzlement.)
-A CU education will prepare students to “defend their faith against other worldviews” (around 2:30). Does anybody need a four-year degree for this? Is this even a good way to live in God’s world?
I’ve visited scads of campuses over the years and have never seen a video by the president pitched at parents. Are these common?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThOaOjErS8s&t=105s&ab_channel=CedarvilleUniversity
Friend,
To be clear, the above mentioned is a video I found on YouTube. It’s not part of the OP.
Todd Wilhelm,
Todd – thank you for your response to my inquiry regarding “the memo”. I do believe that the memo exists, I was just hoping that someone had access to it. I’m a CU alum and former employee who still lives in the area and briefly attended the same SBC church that Tom Mach and Thomas White attended. The White family left and started attending Grace Baptist Church in Cedarville about the time that Anthony Moore was hired at CU. [A conspiracy theorist may start to connect the dots here.] At the time I attended, CU wielded a heavy presence, many people in leadership had strong ties to CU. Pastors (with full-time CU positions making a second part-time income via the local church),as well as deacons and elders, etc. all with a stake .
I’ve driven by the president’s new home.
I appreciate your diligence in bringing the truth out into the open
I find these kinds of statistics so unhelpful. Looking at the first two years of a person’s adulthood as a commentary on the rest of their life feels meaningless.
Thinking of myself and others in my peer group who were raised evangelical… Of those who went to secular schools, some stayed in the church and are still in the church. Some left the church initially and later returned to the church (*raises hand*). Some stayed in the church initially and only later (we’re talking 10-15 years) left the church.
Of those who went to Christian schools, some stayed in the church and are still in the church. Some stayed in the church initially and only later (10-15 years) left the church. (I can’t think of any off the top of my head who left and later returned, but it may come to me later.)
Thanks Sarah,
I heard that White was attending an SBC church in Xenia, but then switched to Grace because of some issue with the youth ministry, the details of which escape me. Initially he didn’t attend Grace because it wasn’t SBC.
Christians are Easy Marks.
Especially if each copy of the memo has some subtle individual indicator — a misspelling here, a typo there — that allows identification and tracing of each copy.
And is that “action” as in REPRISALS?
Still, a leaked copywould provide a solid backup validating what you said.
J R in WV,
When you don’t package deal, you’ve got a strong argument. The Cedarvilles / Ortbergs / Grahams / Devers toy with all the issues. Look for multiple causes to factor in. Allow for local differences in disorganisation. Be on guard against false dichotomies.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
We should be patient. It is clear the “heat is on” with respect to leadership at CU. And, there is clear “issues” coming to light.
J R in WV,
Many regulars on this blog share many of your concerns/observations. Despite what some of the negative critics of TWW, and other “Watchkeeper blog” say, we regulars CARE about people abused in the name of “Christianity”. And this blog, and others, are putting pressure on the abusers, because, unfortunately, many/most of the abusive organizations are unwilling, or unable, to deal with abusers themselves.
I have read similar claims made by Ken Ham as backing for his view that it is essential to indoctrinate the young in the views his organization promotes.
No idea whether the statistic is valid, but if it is… it suggests that the churches are functioning sort of like an occupying army in the lives of the young, but failing to “win hearts and minds.” Which, if true, is both tragic and paradoxical, Jesus being the transcendently beautiful figure that he is.
Evidently TW reckons that if you can maintain the occupation for 4 years longer, it will make all the difference. I doubt it.
“You can trust a preacher” puts them at great risk.
Many ‘Christian’ leaders have been proven to be charlatans, wolves in sheep’s clothing, demons masquerading as angels of light, deceivers with another gospel, cult celebrities, etc.
I believe that both “nouthetic” and “biblical” counseling are not recognized in any US jurisdiction that licenses counselors. I’m pretty confident that people trained in these approaches can be licensed, but in order to do that they would have to demonstrate competence in counseling methods that the state recognizes.
It would be useful to have comparative studies on the efficacy of these religion-based methods versus the state-approved approaches. That’s probably wishing for the moon, though.
Well, he’s right in the sense that fewer Americans over time are going to church and calling themselves Christians. I don’t know if you’ve looked at the Pew studies, but they show a steady decline to 65% or below: https://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/
However, the video mentions only that young adults leave the Evangelical fold, and “fixes” that through four years of total immersion in all things Evangelical at CU.
There’s no suggestion at all of problems in Evangelicalism or American Christianity that might be driving young people away.
There’s also no suggestion that young adults, raised in the US, deserve freedom of religion. By heaven, Dr White is going to make sure they never encounter a new idea!
…annnnnnnnnnnnd, that’s the opposite of higher education.
Friend,
Yup
These studies never distinguish between the “Nones” and the “Dones.” Not all Nones are Dones.
My definition of a “Done” = a true believer, a real-deal Christian who is done with the organized church, but not done with Jesus.
IMO, the Dones are perhaps one of the largest growing groups of genuine Christians in America. Some are Wartburgers.
Max,
Well, the clowns that we read about on TWW have not convinced me, Biblically, that their specific, rule based Christianity, is the “true church”. I would go step further, I wonder how a hard core 5 Marks church would view Mark Driscoll’s new church, or McArthur’s church, etc? Or, how would President White view Driscoll Church? We can play this game all afternoon. We do know that most of these “churches” that I just mention would view me as “marginal”, at best, since I believe in Physics which says earth, Universe, is WAY older than 10-20,000 years old…
Yet, I have not covered up disgusting sexual, or other disgusting abuse like each of them have… and I believe that Christ came to bring light and freedom, not darkness, control, shuning, to people seeking truth
A very optimistic typo. One would think such a church would be almost twice as healthy as a 9 Marks church.
I agree that Pew emphasizes affiliation, but it also has a graphic called “Broad-based declines in share of Americans who say they are Christian.”
We stopped attending church because I reached a point where I came home after services every Sunday and went back to bed sobbing. This happened because a temporary issue at the church brought a tidal wave of old unresolved church-abuse memories into my mind. Our offspring were frightened for me and associated my distress with church.
So we stayed away for five years, with the knowledge and understanding of enlightened clergy. I wrote the pastor a letter about my distress at no longer participating and volunteering. He wrote back and said, “Who you are matters infinitely more than what you do” on Sundays and for the congregation.
Now we grownups are participating again, but offspring do not see the value. The best I can do is live by example. I trust in God’s mercy that He would not send our children to Hell because I had a crisis driven by abuse long ago in a church far away.
Only The One True Way.
(And there cannot be TWO One True Ways. The Universe cannot have two Centers.)
Aside, Max:
I figure “demons masquerading as angels of light” was just the Rabbit from Tarsus’s poetic description of how successful Sociopaths are MASTERS of camouflaging what they are. I grew up with one, and NOBODY else was able to see the Master Manipulator or Sociopath, only the Sweet Little Angel.
Max, I would agree with your definition of Done.
And I think there are a number of confounding variables to consider when research into, polls on, etc., Christianity is undertaken, including whether or not there is a (potentially) hidden agenda (such as fear-mongering).
A few examples (for each study, poll, or whatever):
Define the meanings of the words used. For example: “None”, “Done”, “Christian”, “believer”, “true-believer”, etc..
Define what Christian means. For example: Belief in Jesus; belief in the Triune God; a particular denomination, etc..
Define what “attending church” means. Local church? Home church? Online church? Visible versus invisible church? Etc..
A few examples (for researchers, pollsters, etc. evaluating the results):
Who decided if a person was a None or a Done? This may sound like a nonsensical question until one considers how many sheep are brainwashed into thinking that others have the right to decide their (the brainwashed sheep) “correct” classification.
For those people who were in a faith struggle at the time of the research, poll, or whatever, was there some way to indicate their current struggle? Like using the nearly-impossible-to answer scale of 1 to 10?
As far as I am concerned, what Ken Ham is selling is a pack of lies. Yeah, that’s bold of me, but I honestly do believe the physical evidence of the age of the earth and the distance of the stars shows that Ken is making stuff up (to be nice about it). And when people find out they’ve been sold a pack of lies, what do they usually do? Bail. Yeah, some may double down on the deception, but a lot of people just leave. And the other thing I’d say to Ken Ham and his followers is “If you’re going to lie to me about the age of the earth, or the consistency of the speed of light, then why should I believe you when you say you know the way to God? That’s right–I should not.”
As for the original topic…I’ve just been *sick* inside. I have some experience with mental health treatment as a patient and the way the former CU student was treated viscerally affected me. So much *wrong* happened here. Parents are paying or signing on to loans for enormous sums of money ($32K in tuition *alone* for just one year) and yet this allegedly “Christian” “university” had an obviously ill student sign a non-disclosure agreement. I would argue that the legality of the NDA is under question because the student signed it under duress and while under treatment for a serious illness. If this is what CU and its leadership are doing, you all need to *stop* before some student decided they’ve been badly abused by you lot, sues you and all your secrets come tumbling out.
CU, Thomas White, Mindy May and the rest ought to be ashamed and mortified at the way they treated this student and others. I strongly suspect that, at bottom, White, May and many others at CU don’t believe serious mental illness exists. Let me rent you two clues: 1) it does and 2) medication can definitely improve a person’s quality of life. I’m a living example of this. I have chronic major depression, and I’ve been on medication for it for over two decades. I’ve also held increasingly more demanding jobs over that period and done other things during that time. But let me be clear: Nouthetic counseling can do NOTHING for serious mental illness. We are not talking about the blues. We are talking about things like near constant suicidal ideation. It’s not sin we’re talking about here–we are talking about bodily functions that are out of whack and can be improved via “better living through chemistry.”
Counseling can help a person after they’ve been stabilized, but nouthetic counseling can’t help a person with major depressive disorder, bipolar, schizophrenia or other illnesses that pretty much require treatment with medication. For the record, you’ve not lived until you’ve heard your mother tell her psychiatrist that yes, she’s still seeing some hallucinations of animals with big eyes and the voices are still there, but they’re inaudible. My mother’s paranoid schizophrenia has been a not-insignificant part of my life, and she’d been sick 50 years before I actually heard her state in words what her experience was. She’s on medication and she recognizes the voices and hallucinations for what they are, but they’re still there. I shudder to think what would happen to a person with schizophrenia falling into the hands of a nouthetic counselor.
I’m just going to say again to parents that having your adult child go to this kind of a cesspool in the name of preserving their Christian faith is more likely to destroy it or worse. You would do better and more likely save money by looking into local universities or even starting out at a community college. But don’t have your son or daughter going to a place like CU. It’s just unhealthy.
Todd Wilhelm,
so, i just watched the speech (apology?) TW gave.
He says mentions the restoration, or restoration plan, of anthony moore. and then says something like “we will never ever do that sort of thing again”.
well, why on earth did you do it in the first place, TW?
i’m so puzzled…. why would a university have any reason whatsoever to hire someone for the purpose of ‘restoring’ them?
it’s at cross-purposes with the purpose of a university. (and i hate how i repeated the word ‘purpose’, there)
something isn’t jiving here.
———
it always seemed to me that it was orchestrated by multiple parties — perhaps The Village Church and Cedarville together, either out of mercy for anthony moore.
or because they and other powerful shadowy forces had plans for anthony moore and were grooming him for these bigger plans, to serve a bigger purpose.
seems to me that while i’m sure anthony moore appreciated the soft landing in being hired by cedarville university, he was being used by shadowy powerbrokers.
as what these secret purposes were, 1) perhaps racial integration (or the appearance of such)? (to help with SBC’s pro-slavery past that will always haunt them)
2) perhaps something about #churchtoo: paving the way for less liability – if a sexual offender who is a ‘celebrity pastor’ can be rehabilitated / restored, then perhaps there is less liability for the SBC (even if only a matter perception).
3) perhaps anthony moore presented an opportunity for both 1) and 2).
———
i have a feeling something much bigger is behind it all (having taken place around a conference table in a clandestine board room somewhere)
I’m sure the Pew studies lump Dones with Nones, since neither have local church affiliation. The Nones don’t attend church because they don’t believe in Jesus for the most part … the Dones have dropped out of organized church because they can’t find Jesus there (just teachings and traditions of men and religious people).
American Christians – in this current age of church as entertainment, church as indoctrination, celebrity church, mega-mania, etc. – are faced with a tension between two passages of Scripture:
“Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together” vs.
“Come out from her My People and be not a partaker of her sins”
After 70+ years of attending churches which conducted themselves largely without God, I made my decision. I have a burden for a genuine revival among God’s people and spiritual awakening in the nation, and pray daily for that. I do that as a Done, not a None. The Body of Christ is my church affiliation and I find it in various places … including The Wartburg Watch!
This strikes me as an entirely uncontroversial remark.
I used to be really upset about KH and fellow- travelers. In the last 15 or so years I have come to reckon that the strength of this movement within a subset of the churches could be evidence of a Romans 1-type “giving over to darkened understanding”. Of course, that dynamic does not stop there; it continues into bad choices and bad outcomes.
Sometimes God sets His face against those who claim to follow Him. He did that repeatedly with Old Israel. The present-day churches are not, IMO, exempt from this.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Your thoughtful comment confirmed some things for me, clarified some things for me, and provided me with some things upon which to reflect….
Thanks for taking the time to write. 🙂
Max, I was puzzled why I was drawn to read your comment several times…I finally realized I had been misreading the word “current”, unconsciously replacing it with the word “corrupt”.
Personally, I think the word “corrupt” is more accurate (no offence intended). 🙂
Max,
“My definition of a “Done” = a true believer, a real-deal Christian who is done with the organized church, but not done with Jesus.
IMO, the Dones are perhaps one of the largest growing groups of genuine Christians in America. Some are Wartburgers.”
++++++++++++++
‘tcha….. i’m even done with “Christian”.
it’s a brand. and a scuzzy one. an embarrassing brand. a pretentious brand that can’t hide it’s connotations of poor quality. a dishonest brand with corrupt people behind it.
i believe in the triune God, living in me each day as the vine, i am the branches, and we work together to make the world a kinder, cleaner, safer, healing place…. and i reserve the right to call it what I want.
My thoughts as well when various reports started coming out on Moore. It appears that there was a plan to restore him since so many big whigs had expended so much energy promoting him. I suspect Moore will launch another comeback someday after all this blows over.
The term definitely doesn’t have the same meaning in the 21st century church as it did in the 1st century Body of Christ.
“And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.” (Acts 11:26)
The persecuted early Church was willing to die to lift up the precious name of Jesus … many in today’s church would respond “Jesus who?” if asked to confess faith in Him under threat (something that is already happening in certain parts of the world).
Max,
“Jesus who?”
+++++++++++
well, the mascot and nothing more. like ronald mcdonald. tony the tiger (frosted flakes). the pillsbury doughboy.
Wondrous.
Yes!
And not in Los Angeles parking lots.
If the shoe fits, wear it.
Many corrupt the Word of God (2 Cor 2:17).
elastigirl,
a large part of why i’m done with the whole thing is for too many years church has felt like living in a TV commercial.
(but i know i do carry on about this)
elastigirl,
i mean a snowglobe would be bad enough…. but a tv commercial…
a black mirror episode waiting to happen (although they’d have to repeat the snowglobe theme)
elastigirl,
no, they wouldn’t have to touch on the snowglobe at all. just the tv commercial.
oh, it would be a great episode! if i were to write it to be black-mirror-worthy i’d need to be under the influence of something, i’m sure.
Salvador Dali liquid center pancakes?
https://depositphotos.com/244476162/stock-photo-crepes-franch-pancakes-thin-inspired.html
Much the same occurred to me, Dee. I think that this observation from justicecollective is also relevant:
So on the one hand, most psychologists and competent counsellors won’t work at Cedarville because of professional standards and a refusal to toe White’s party line. Conversely, nouthetic counsellors won’t take positions there either, out of disgust at the “satanic taint”.
To sum up, CU has trapped itself into a shortage of counsellors by its own policies. And suffering students are the ones who pay the price.
That’s some real caring leadership, White.
Friend,
ok, so i just checked and BevMo doesn’t sell something called Salvador Dali… i’ll look at your link.
Friend,
oh my word…. yes…. a subplot of pancakes….
ok, now i’m stuck.
(i’m going to need that substance…)
Good advice, Dee. I really appreciate your entire comment. Thanks.
Think he’ll have the “I’m Not saying it’s an Angel Encounter, BUT…” Word of Prophecy to comeback from some random guy at a gas station in backwoods Wyoming?
Here’s some music to bring joy to you and all of us, Cab Calloway singing “Everybody Eats When They Come to My House:”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E03NZOIxGmQ&ab_channel=laughland
There are so many wannabe pastors that the fact they always do this just puzzles me to no end.
Friend,
how very apropos!
Pretty much the same with me.
I hold to the tenets of The Apostle’s Creed as non-negotiables up front and on the table.
The rest of the stuff?
I pick and choose as I see fit.
Friend,
I don’t disagree that fewer people are going to church. I just don’t think the solution is to send evangelical college students to a “Christian” college. I suspect the causes for declines in church attendance are many and nuanced, and putting off a young person’s exposure to “the world” may just delay the inevitable by four more years. People are ceasing to be regular church attenders in their 20s, in their 40s, in their 70s.
I wonder how much of the decline is that it is simply more socially acceptable now to not attend. And I’m not entirely convinced this is a bad thing.
From what I saw, it just made those students angrier and more likely to distance themselves if they were forced to go to Liberty, but there’s definitely a belief among parents that Christian university will continue to shelter their kids.
Wild Honey,
But fewer butts in the pews means less dollars and “bragging” rights/political power for preachers and denominations..
How many times have heard xxx is the fastest growing, and yyy has zzz million attenders… I always liked the tag line about the Mormon Church…. but boy you now do not hear about the mass exodus…
ishy,
Thanks for confirming this about LU.
I think White’s video to prospective CU parents plays on desires to control their adult children’s lives. It only addresses high tuition, quitting church, and academic preparation for the work force. Students’ happiness is not really mentioned except as a byproduct of the Evangelical immersion plan.
The parents I know talk most often about their college kids’ emotional well-being, their overall ability to launch.
It’s hard to believe that parents don’t anticipate that, when the college search is all about “best fit.”
“Cedarville University Counseling Center has never done anything wrong and that none of the students’ stories are true.”
That statement is ridiculous on its face. If it’s true, (and we need proof), one of two things has to happen. 1) we see faculty departing in droves, or 2) White finally gets exposed beyond all repair and is ended.
Yes, I think that’s an extreme difference between evangelical/fundamentalist parents versus mainline Christian or secular parents. Evangelical parent often still view their adult children as kids that continue to need the parents’ control.
I had roommates that struggled with their parents’ constant hovering. For example, one had a parent that demanded a call every day and if my suitemate didn’t, her mom would call over and over and over until my suitemate answered (and often she wasn’t around so we just had to ignore it). Now, I imagine these parents have Life360 on their kids’ phones and track their every movement. Many people I knew had codependent relationships with their parents and had bad homesickness, but the stories they would tell me about things that happened on vacations were kinda creepy, but the students’ usually normalized their parents’ obsessive behavior.
Most of my close friends were not like this and we definitely didn’t fit the super “on fire” student nor the ones that hated being there because their parents made them go. We also had a really good time, but being older, I moved off campus in my second year and that insulated me from a lot more of the craziness.
ishy,
“Many people I knew had codependent relationships with their parents and had bad homesickness, but the stories they would tell me about things that happened on vacations were kinda creepy,….”
+++++++++++++++++++
well, now i’m curious.
(no obligation to say more, though)
I’m sure you’re right!
Obsession is one thing, but there’s also a generational change. College kids text their parents a lot. If a student is struggling or having a hard day, it can be hard for the most skilled parents to judge how to respond.
So young adults at these hyper controlling colleges might feel like they’re on the Christian version of the Truman Show.
Some parents send problem kids to “Christian” colleges, looking at them as reform schools to straighten their brats out. That seldom works.
Not to mention four years of higher tuition costs to receive an education that doesn’t stack up with that offered at lower-cost secular colleges. If a young person wants to hang out with other Christian youth, they can find them at State universities too.
There is an SBC-affiliated college near me … many of the kids travel to a nearby city on weekends to party, getting away from the rules and regulations on the Christian campus. A 20-something is going to do what s/he is going to do. I suppose some Christian colleges are better than others, with more godly leadership than CU or LU, where students are nurtured in the faith while receiving a college education … rather than waiting for the next scandal to break.
“And you’ll only drink milk
If it comes from a CHRISTIAN cow;
Don’t spend your hard-earned bread
Keeping those HEATHENS well-fed —
Line Christian pocketes instead!”
— Steve Taylor, “Guilty by Association”
Max,
Max, that sounds like the SBC College I went to, in the 70’s. The fraternity guys were the most common that did that. I was raised to be a tee-totaler, but had my first exposure to drinking alcohol while there.
I’ve loosed up a lot since then, but still a cheap date. (to quote co-workers when I mentioned how little it takes.)
The college that you are talking about wouldn’t be in the Bluegrass area, would it?
No, not that one. All I can say it’s in the South, sorta. I’m sorry but I can’t give you the exact location of my whereabouts. The New Calvinists have been trying to figure that out for years, so they can come pay me a visit 🙂
Precisely. Maybe then they could get back to the business of reflecting Jesus to the world around them, business that many of their more humble fellows are already quietly doing with a lot fewer dollars and less political sway.
justicecollective,
I was counseled by Joy and she was wonderful. I don’t want to give many details as to protect her and myself, but I felt supported and heard by her. Upon intake the questionnaire asked if I had prior counseling, which I did. Am I lucky to have been placed with Joy, or was it because I knew what counseling was supposed to be like?
The worst example of this was someone not at LU, but at SEBTS. SEBTS generally had students who chose to go there and were older, but there was one student whose dad made her go there to “find a husband”. To a seminary filled with married people.
Her parents told her that, as a woman, her only purpose in life was to provide them grandkids, and that she was useless and unwanted without being married with kids. I know this because I heard her mother shouting it at her on campus one day. She was one of the most dysfunctional people I’ve ever met.
But some people said that whenever they went home, their parents reverted them into small children. They were not allowed to leave the house for any reason, especially after 7pm. They were told what to wear. I remember one girl told me that her brother, who was only a couple years older, was required to “babysit” her, but basically could do whatever he wanted because he was male. Her parents told her she would get pregnant if she held hands with a man.
One of the saddest things I’ve every heard…
ishy,
In my fundamentalist Baptist High School, we had chapels were speakers would tell us that holding hands leads to murder!! See, once you hold hands, you can not control yourself which then leads to an abortion! This was mid 70’s right after abortion became legal.
People thought I might be imbelishing these stores; however, a number of years ago a Facebook page was started for those us that attended the school, and other people posted their memories of these ” sermons”. Ishy’s stories are very consistent with this subculture.
Yeah, I had a good bit of culture shock after transferring from UGA. I mean, at UGA, people were throwing up and passing out in the hallways drunk every Thursday night.
I just thought of another thing. Students often didn’t have cars at Liberty, not because their parents couldn’t afford them, but because their parents wanted to trap them on campus. My dad had given me the old family minivan, so every time I went anywhere, there were sometimes 10 people wanting to come, just so they could leave the school. That was very different from UGA, where a lot of students had cars, but Athens also has a very good public transit system that is free to students. Lynchburg might have had one, but it didn’t come to LU then if there was. I don’t think I paid attention enough, but I don’t think Lynchburg had one. And I’ve told y’all before about the professor I had who boasted about how his young daughter would have an arranged marriage, because she could only marry someone he chose that was from a “well-known” and “famous” family. Crazy.
ishy,
It might be that underage students weren’t allowed to have cars at LU, so that might have been something built-in to the school. I had taken a year off, so I was already 22 when I started there. But I do remember one girl telling me her parents wouldn’t let her own a car or move out on her own until she was 25, and she was afraid they wouldn’t even then. She seemed totally shocked to find out there was no way they could decide that for her.
This sounds eerily similar to what young unmarried women must endure under fundamental Islam.
And this is dangerous.
At age 18, people in the US become responsible under the law for their actions. They need to know that they also receive extensive rights that very same day. They can make their own medical decisions. They can get driver’s licenses. They often have tenants’ rights, so their parents can’t just throw them out of the house if they fail to comply with family rules.
Like the Heir to House Bolton, Wardens of the North under Queen Circe?
As soon as she “flowered”?
Breeding Stock.
And sealing of Political Alliances/ladder to Prestige & Power, especially if married off to the Heir of a Great House.
(Remember Vision Forum and their 200-year Dynastic Plans?)
Especially when you factor in American drinking age, where up until 21 it’s Strictly Forbidden and the instant you turn 21 there’s NO restriction whatsoever. Along with driver’s license and popping your cherry, the closest thing we have in American culture to an adulthood “rite of passage”. Add to this Baptist “Dry” Culture (where one drop of alcohol is The Unpardonable Sin) and you get Forbidden Fruit (now accessible without restriction) on steroids. With newly-adult kids coming out of a background where they were never taught how to handle it, only “Thou Shalt Not”. They’re gonna go wild and have NO idea of how to do it responsibly.
“You Americans are just like the Irish! When you drink, you drink as Strong as you can and as Much as you can to get as Drunk as you can as Fast as you can.”
— Italian priest whose American seminarians balked at wine with breakfast, invoking the Dry Pledge
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Just remembered this link, about the idea of pleasure in French culture and childrearing:
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/pleasure-is-good-how-french-children-acquire-a-taste-for-life?utm_source=pocket-newtab
“One of the most surprising things that French mothers shared with me in my research was their belief that stimulating children’s appetites for a wide variety of life’s pleasures can actually deter them from becoming addicted to drugs!”
Contrast this with the Puritan influence about the subject in White American culture. Which would be supercharged by White American CHRISITANESE culture.
“Maybe if we didn’t deprive ourselves of simple pleasures all day every day, we wouldn’t feel so compelled to overdo it on weekends.”
Or the instant parental or Pastor isn’t there to see and stop you.
ishy,
I seem to remember you saying that you once wore jeans to class at LU just to get a rise out of Professor… Pants were taboo for girls at my HS, and tight jeans were scandalous…. a girl would be suspended, and potentially expelled for that..
Headless Unicorn Guy,
The Hopi have a word (which I’m not going to even try to pronounce or spell here) that means “Life Out of Balance”. I think it applies here.
Bondage.
My wife was friends in highschool with a girl whose father was a pentecostal preacher. She was required to wear certain clothes, no makeup, and a hairstyle that clearly marked her as one of the holy ones. As soon as she graduated and struck out on her own, she shed all the trappings of that lifestyle … and somehow became a normal adult while still holding onto faith in Christ (rather than religious rules).
And as I said in my previous three comments (actually one broken up into three), the transition happens at midnight on your 18th birthday. From Nothing to All, instantly. (There’s a reason 21st Birthday celebrations here involve a bar crawl until falling-down-puking-drunk then an optional “kindergarden class” in a whorehouse to indulge in all the Formerly Forbidden Fruit. ALL At Once.)
If you have never been taught or learned how to make that transition and be a “responsible adult”, never experienced any atutonmy or individuality from your parents and church…
It wasn’t to class and not to upset anyone. I had a 102 degree temperature and there was snow on the ground. I was waiting for the health center to open. An RA went ballistic on me and threatened to get me expelled for being “rebellious”. The doctor at the health center wrote me a note that removed my reprimands, which further enraged the RA, so that RA had it out for me for awhile after that.
You forgot the “GOD SAITH!”, Weaponized Christ, and Eternal Hell to back it all up.
That Way Lies Madness.
ishy,
I will add that particular RA was male and made the comment that “Women should know their place and wear dresses.” We could wear jeans while not in class, so jeans weren’t all that uncommon. And technically, I was not in class, so shouldn’t have been given reps. But this RA was clearly ultra-fundamentalistn and had it out for women. I pity the woman he coerced into marrying him. I am certain he is abusive.
Another approach is to live by example and have healthy discussions, so that children learn that alcohol is a thing that exists rather than Forbidden Fruit.
There are no guaranteed methods of child rearing, but the punitive taboo approach is overrated.
ishy,
“I had a 102 degree temperature and there was snow on the ground. I was waiting for the health center to open. An RA went ballistic on me and threatened to get me expelled for being “rebellious”. The doctor at the health center wrote me a note that removed my reprimands, which further enraged the RA, so that RA had it out for me for awhile after that.”
“I will add that particular RA was male and made the comment that “Women should know their place and wear dresses.”
++++++++++++++++
it’s times like this… i think about karma and smile quite smug.
ishy,
The true irony of these types of nutty rules is that it “amplifies” the “sexualization” of women based on the clothes they wear…. the more they fuss about it, the more one thinks, gee, what is so special bout women wearing tight jeans? I guess that is suppose to really get me sexually excited? Sigh…
There’s a certain highly rude new song that I won’t name here. I heard about it first through the protestations of fundagelicals, and then through people making fun of their reactions.
It’s a weird variation of the Streisand Effect. “Let me tell you all about this thing you’re not supposed to know! My gosh, is it ever wicked!”
I agree. I think purity culture creates the kinds of monsters it proposes to stop. It doesn’t stop lust, in fact, it amplifies it. It doesn’t stop bad or abusive marriages, and instead normalizes abuse. It doesn’t make people any more pure than they are and instead attempts to hide all bad things behind a screen as if they didn’t exist when they do.
Imagine the power to decide whether a garment is too revealing, a book or movie too dirty, or a health class curriculum too indecent. And you get to stand up in front of hundreds of people every Sunday and tell them what they are not allowed to wear, read, watch, or learn. These things would harm the flock, but they somehow never sully the experts.
Friend,
Think of what it can do to your “head” when you can “preach it”, and get people to hang on your words??
My family went to a fairly conservative church when I was in high school, in the 90s. The youth group (which I didn’t get involved in) kicked it up a notch. I know of one girl who, after embracing purity culture, told her dad that she wanted her dad to pick out her future husband. The dad flatly refused.
Heh. I got a couple marriage proposals at LU from guys who had barely spoken to me beforehand. Most girls there did. One guy demanded my dad’s phone number so he could “ask” my dad, even though I already said no and to leave me alone. Dude seemed to think that Dad would overrule me. I told him that my dad would probably contact the police, but he didn’t believe me.
I told my agnostic dad this on break and my dad looked totally incredulous. He said, “I would have told him that only losers ask a woman’s dad for permission to marry.”
I heard about a dad who said to the suitor, “Why are you asking me? She’s the one who’ll have to sleep with you.”
Godly Experts(TM) whose own sex life with their Winsome Godly Wifeys(TM) incorporates acts and things I have only heard about in the context of pornography.
That’s actually called “Pornography for the Pious.”.
How else can RESPECTABLE Church Ladies get their fix of all that JUICY vicarious SIN SIN SIN?
And still stay Pious and Respectable?
Unfortunately, a lot of Christian cannot get beyond “THOU SHALT NOT! GAWD SAITH!”
Regarding Forbidden Fruit, here’s a very old B.C. Comic Strip:
(Snake is booking along under an apple tree.)
TREE: Hey, Snake!
(Snake looks up.)
TREE: I’m the Forbidden Fruit!”
(Snake looks through the fourth wall directly at the reader.)
SNAKE: NOW he tells me!
A lot of secular people can’t past “THOU SHALT NOT!!” either….they just don’t use God and / or the Bible and / or Christianity.
justicecollective,
I only checked Texas and Ohio but it appears Ms May has never been licensed. One former faculty member in department at her old school has moved to Liberty and I had to sue them
Sarah,
(coming from being completely not in the know,) can i ask this question: how did it turn out?
no need to respond if too complicated.
Good for her dad!
As a father and grandfather myself, I would have told her that if I wanted that kind of control and micro-management in my kid’s lives, I’d convert to fundamental Islam.
Back to CU and White, we need to ask ourselves “How did Thomas White end up as CU President in the first place?” Well, the good ole boys put him there, you know … Paige Patterson and his buds. Yep “Break Her Down Patterson” made it happen … think about it.
Ah yes, but he’d be nowhere without that coach-like aura. It is absolutely uncanny, like everybody within the sound of his voice may or may not make the 53-man roster cut.
https://www.baptistpress.com/resource-library/news/cedarville-calls-swbts-white-as-president/
2013: “Southwestern President Paige Patterson, who recently rejoined the Cedarville board of trustees, described White as a “precious friend” and a “humble, courageous, brilliant prophet of God”.”
the 2013 Baptist Press story proclaimed that Cedarville was “endorsed by the State Convention of Baptists in Ohio, one of 42 state/regional conventions within the Southern Baptist Convention.”
but this year in the articles on White’s suspension and reinstatement, Baptist Press instead characterized Cedarville as an “independent Baptist school”:
https://www.baptistpress.com/resource-library/news/cedarville-places-president-on-leave-announces-investigations-into-hiring-conduct-of-former-faculty-member/
https://www.baptistpress.com/resource-library/news/cedarville-university-reinstates-thomas-white-akin-vroegop-resign-from-trustee-board/
Oh brother! These folks sure take care of each other. “Brilliant prophet of God” is a huge stretch! Back in those days, Patterson’s endorsement went a long way in SBC – it bought White the President’s job at CU. The cronies network has secured a lot of positions for folks in SBC who shouldn’t be serving in those capacities.
Jerome,
Perhaps CU dropped their SBC-affiliation and went independent as a result of SWBTS booting Patterson from the President’s office there … White wouldn’t have liked that one bit, treating his mentor that way.
Sooner or later, White won’t make the roster either. Payday someday.
I’m curious about White saying he “owned four karate schools in South Carolina…was the Middleweight World Amateur Sport Karate international champion in 1993…is a member of the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame”:
https://www.journal-news.com/news/cedarville-university-names-new-president/L0DI1NFXHFcvmyEpjG1OyJ/
What’s the ‘World Martial Arts Hall of Fame’ anyway?
Don’t see Dr. White’s name on this list of WMAHF inductees:
http://wmahf.semkhor.com/page.asp?content_id=2994
Whoops! My mistake … his name is there.
“The martial arts is not regulated and as a result, anyone can purchase a black belt at their local store and open a school without any martial arts training at all. The same thing has occurred in regard to the Hall of Fame. Anyone and everyone can establish their own version of a Hall of Fame at any time. Today, there are over a thousand martial arts halls of fame across America alone.”
https://martialartsmuseum.com/about/hall-of-fame/#:~:text=The%20martial%20arts%20is%20not,of%20Fame%20at%20any%20time.
I suspect it is this http://wmahf.semkhor.com/page.asp?content_id=2994
since a Thomas White is on their list. It strikes me as dubious and defunct.
Erp,
Sigh…. here we go again with the inflated credentials, just like mail order Ph.D’s….
yup, all about integrity, Is it not?? It is always worth detail checking CV’s….
With all the bad press they’re (Cedarville and other fundagelical colleges) getting, I wonder if it’s occurred to them that they either change or go extinct.
Even when these institutions fall apart in a grand explosion, 8-16 months later, they are trying to make a new one… So my guess is not…
ishy,
To state the obvious, the pandemic will change things too.
Looks like LU is hesitating to release covid numbers. The other two colleges in Lynchburg put up their online covid dashboards last month. Story from September 3:
Since in-person classes began late last month, Liberty has declined to release daily COVID-19 figures but has agreed to provide weekly updates to the media. Anderson said the school is still in the process of developing the dashboard, which will provide updates to the public “on a regular basis” with real-time data.
“We want to be sure that those numbers and our reporting system is well tested or well vetted,” he said, explaining the delay.
As of Friday, 25 students and five employees have tested positive for COVID-19. Another 53 students and 18 employees were awaiting results, according to the most recent — and only — update from the school. About 15,000 students are enrolled in Liberty’s residential program.
The limited scope of the publicly released information has concerned some students who are worried about the disease spreading across campus without their knowledge.
“A lot of students are really anxious about the numbers, and I think that we would prefer more than just a once-a-week update considering how fast it can spread within that time period,” said Janaye Wagner-Klazinga, a junior studying social work.
Wagner-Klazinga said the university did not directly alert the student body about the 30 positive test results and she first learned about the infections in the news.
https://newsadvance.com/news/local/liberty-university/liberty-university-to-launch-covid-19-dashboard/article_182328b8-016a-5c35-a6e2-8e50ed22cdeb.html
No one is more perfect in this world than what is shown on their CV.
The public university where I live is doing the same thing, even amidst lawsuits. So that, at least, is not unique to Christian colleges.
Where I live was just renamed a hotspot after managing to calm down the numbers.
Or go join a local Amish sect…
Friend,
To my mind, what is even more appalling….
From the linked article: Liberty did not require students to take a COVID-19 test before returning to campus.
There’s still a nationwide shortage of tests. Many colleges are not requiring a negative test before students return. There are also problems with getting results in a timely fashion. This varies by where the student lives.
One state university is offering free tests on demand, and also emailing, say, 100 students a day to ask them to come in for testing. I think that’s very smart under the circumstances.
Liberty has ordered rapid tests and the equipment to process them. Other colleges have done likewise.
Right now every college is running an experiment in the wild. Some are better than others. I just hope that some standards emerge this semester, so things can be a tiny bit more normal in January. Supposedly, saliva tests will be produced soon.
researcher,
In contrast, one of my sons had to take a test, at a specific time when he arrived. Next he immediately quarantene until he has a second negative test…. then he is let out of his room, but hard core rules….Which they enforce by sending you home….. which they have…. it almost sounds like a prison…
LU is being caviler, just like the stats show that many evangelicals are..
In the spring, one college let a few students stay on campus if they had nowhere to go. Then that state required closure of non-life-sustaining businesses. The students were basically confined to their rooms for an entire month, doing classes by Zoom and eating takeout from the dining hall. No one was allowed off campus.
Nobody got covid, and that’s excellent. However, all of this stuff varies by location, not just what a college can do, can afford to do, etc.
My apologies, Friend. Thank you for reminding me of what I sometimes forget…
I try to stay on top of the national and international school situation(s), and much of my reading has included how the various schools (and their districts, etc.) have incorporated (or not) COVID-19 testing, self-isolation, and quarantine into everyday life.
There are so many details to be balanced and considered. And unfortunately, I think your words Right now every college is running an experiment in the wild. Some are better than others. could be applied to more than colleges. Very big sigh.
Erp,
Per the website “…the MUSEUM HALL OF FAME consists of those individuals who have made historic and iconic impacts upon the martial arts community as a whole. A Hall of Fame should be the hardest thing to get into, not the easiest.”
This begs the question… what was Tom White’s historic and iconic impact on the martial arts community?
https://martialartsmuseum.com/about/hall-of-fame/#:~:text=The%20martial%20arts%20is%20not,of%20Fame%20at%20any%20time
Sarah,
He’s not in that Hall of Fame. My guess it that his impact was either providing money or favorable publicity to the person/group responsible to the hall of fame he was in.
Isn’t that the truth! No matter how much we read, there are more situations than we can even imagine.
I do think that colleges are in a good position to find some solutions that work—as long as their decisions are not contorted by finances, ideological pressure, etc.
One place did a gradual move-in in August. When they detected a small outbreak, they paused move-in for 2 weeks, pending further testing and review. Some students are in dorms, others still at home. All instruction is on Zoom. I thought that was a smart adjustment.
Amen to that!!!
You are completely right, of course.
Several big universities, having trumpeted plans to hold classes in person, are now eating take-out crow.
One concussion too many?