Part 1: Andy Savage and Chris Conlee Prove That Any Schmuck Can Start a Non-Denominational Church

My Conga people will find me anywhere I go.-Gloria Estefan


Andy Savage, Jules Woodson’s confessed molester, is doing what every fallen pastor does when they are removed or have resigned from one church… They start another church. They are excellent examples of the problems inherent in the nondenominational system. I have been a member of a couple of wonderful nondenominational churches(Bent Tree Church is one) that carefully set up their system to reflect typical standards. Those good nondenominational churches are NOT the subject of this post.

  • One does not need any credentials to start such a church.
  • One does not need to have gone to seminary or even to have graduated from college.
  • One does not need to be vetted since the problem with starting such a church means that there are no set standards.
  • Molesters, substance abusers, etc. can set themselves up as pastors so long as they have resolved any criminal consequences.
  • They can attract lots of people who are loosey-goosey in their theology and enjoy a church which is Bible Light since it means that they don’t have to walk the hard walk. Their pastor doesn’t.
  • Many are theological lightweights and show it in their poorly constructed sermons and teaching.
  • Many of these leaders do not know how to make a living outside of getting a healthy percentage of tithe money. They spend much time contemplating their *giving units.*
  • The people they attract are those who actually believe that the outcome of the David and Bathsheba story applies to a molester because they have been taught so poorly.
  • Many of these pastors believe in covering up *awkward problems* because they need to protect the church.
  • Many of their followers are devoted bootlickers and those people become elders or deacons, especially if they have money or powerful standing in the community.

Most of these churches are started and led by those we might call *fallen pastors.* These fallen pastors join what I call the *conga line of fallen pastors*…laughing and dancing their way to fame and fortune.

Chris Conlee and Andy Savage start their new churches in Memphis.

Today, I had a good conversation with Jules Woodson. We discussed the fact that both Conlee and Savage are starting churches in Memphis…* in your face* startups. These actions are quite painful for Jules as well as for many others who supported her during that terrible time. Why couldn’t they have started their churches in another locale? Don’t say they have friends and family there. They could have easily started a church in surrounding areas and still have seen their family. My guess is that they contacted some of their former church members who will return, checkbooks, or Venmo, at the ready. My guess is that the pastors would want Venmo since it is a quick transaction and these boys need money pronto.

Andy Savage’s new church started in October 2019, just before COVID. I’m guessing that he is cash hungry at the moment.

Here is the initial story that would eventually lead to Savage and Conlee stepping down as pastors of the Highpoint Church. In October 2019, I posted Andy Savage, Who Molested Jules Woodson, Is Starting a New Church. The Church Doesn’t Need Him. #churchtoo #metoo

I believe that Savage is disqualified from preaching. When Jules came forward, Highpoint Church was a member of the SBC. They quickly removed themselves from the SBC.

In my post, I shared a link to a sermon that Savage gave at a gathering for those interested in joining his new church. That link is now broken but here are some of my thoughts on that sermon.

Here are some things that I heard.

  • He claims he is a teacher. Was this another prophecy from the IHOP folks?
  • He claims he wants to care for people who are struggling. He claims he ignored them in the past.
  • He claims he is not out for himself
  • He claims this new church is not about him.
  • He claims he’s now free from caring about what *you* think. Is this another phrase for sc**w you? Sure sounds like it.
  • *Bob on a bike* is holding him accountable.

In this sermon, he showed, once again, why he should not be a pastor.

  1. He did not rebuke the audience which laughed out loud when he discussed that they could all read about him on Google.
  2. He also said that we all have gotten our hands on the wrong thing at one time or another. (Stop snickering.) Well, Savage sure did. I bet he didn’t have *Bob on a bike* vet that line.

Savage doesn’t discuss the fact that most youth pastors have never assaulted teens in youth programs.(Although, I’ve recently wonder just how high those stats are.) In fact, few of us have ever assaulted anyone. So don’t try to sin level your molestation onto the backs of the rest of us, Savage.

If one is hoping to find lots of Benjamins in the plate, Collierville is a good choice because it’s a well off community. Here is a description from Wikipedia.

  • a suburb located in the Memphis metropolitan area
  • Collierville is a town of large houses and considerable retail expansion.
  • Collierville was chosen as one of Relocate-America’s Top 100 Places to Live in 2008.[7] In 2014, Collierville’s historic town square was ranked by Parade Magazine as the “Best Main Street” in America.[8
  • The racial makeup of the town was 89.87% White
  • voters in the town overwhelmingly passed an ordinance establishing a separate school district for the town beginning in the 2013-2014 school year

Looks like he’s found a good place to encourage tithing. However, the COVID thing has prevented his church from meeting. If you go to the church website you will find precious little about the church. It appears you have to fill out a contact form to get the lowdown.

If anyone has filled in the contact form and has received material from the church, I would greatly appreciate it if you would share any information with me. Also, we had planned to have a protest outside of the church one Sunday during the meeting time. That plan is still in the works but we will wait until it is safe to do so.

Chris Conlee, a “visionary leader and gifted communicator” is also starting a new church.

Do not forget that Chris knew of Andy’s molestation of Jules when they started Highpoint together. This means that he has a significant problem with judgment, in my opinion. I wrote a number of posts on Conlee’s interaction with the International House of Prayer. He received prophecies that he was going to do something amazing. I wrote about it in The International House of Prayer: Will Highpoint Church Jump Out of the Frying Pan Into the Fire?

He then claimed that he has been led to start a 24/7 prayer room leading me to wonder if he is going to have his church’s prayer ministry become associated with IHOP Memphis.

Then, after he stepped down from Highpoint, he became an executive pastor of Bethel, Cleveland. Chris Conlee, formerly a co-pastor with Andy Savage, is now an Executive Pastor at Bethel Cleveland which has some fascinating beliefs. Bethel has some rather bizarre beliefs which are outlined in my post. How did Conlee, who helped start HIghpoint which was a member of the SBC and The Gospel Coalition, make such an abrupt turn and join some highly questionable, charismatic groups on steroids, is hard for me to fathom. At one point he claimed he was going to start a leadership coaching business which, given the mess at Highpoint, elicited guffaws from a number of wags on TWW and Twitter.

He has a big, fat GIVE button on his website in case you wish to support his *ministry.* Conlee calls himself a *Visionary Leader* and plans to get busy solving the problem of racism. Since he never spent much time on this in the past, will he do so in his new church? Or is this simply another pastor jumping on the bandwagon until the next *important thing* arises.

Chris’s entrepreneurial spirit enabled him to start the Highpoint Leadership Institute, the LeadershipWorks Conference, and the Healing Wounded History Conference. Every vision is ultimately a solution to a problem. One of the problems Chris is most passionate about solving is racism and all of its related injustices; that’s one of the primary reasons Chris was one of the founding members of the Memphis Christian Pastors Network. Chris also enjoys serving as a Trustee for Lead Like Jesus and teaching for Convene and their Christian CEO Peer Advisory Groups.

He also considers himself a gifted communicator. He likes to present such topics as *overcoming adversity* and  *leadership.* I often wonder about people who have such high views of themselves. I’m wondering if I should call myself *an adorable blogger* as well as a known *daughter of Stan.*(sic)

Oddly, I could not find Conlee’s name mentioned on the Convene website but he is listed at Lead Like Jesus with no affiliations after his name.

His wife breathlessly published *A Letter to Memphis.* I guess she thinks that the entire city of Memphis has been waiting for this letter.

  • Memphis is the complicated combination of the beautiful grit and grind and the pain of our city’s tragic past. The black eye of Dr. King’s assassination in our streets is not what God wants this city to be remembered for. He has a better way.
  • God’s writing a new story that we want to be a part of. And as we absorbed the events of 2020 from Cleveland, we longed for the Lord to let us return our little light, and our commitment to be known by love, to the people of this city. We’re so grateful He spoke!

She wants you to know that Satan is going to be spreading half-truths, etc. I assume she means about Chris.

I do have a little apprehension. I think of the way Satan likes to work. Silence, half-truths and division are three of his favorite weapons.

It appears that Chris and Karin are going to start a new church, One City Church as well as launching  Race for Reconciliation. Take a look at the size of the *donate button* on Race for Reconciliation (ROR). According to the website, this is more than a race.

Notice that Conlee is attempting to raise dollars for his new *reconciliation* ministry. He can collect an income from the proceeds of this not-for-profit. As for One City Church, this is next to no information. You must fill out a form to get updates on the church. Once again, I would ask that folks send me any information that they receive.

Final thoughts:

  • It always fascinates me when pastors jump from one thing to the next in order to keep them relevant. This is in order to bring in the Benjamins. In Part 2 of this post, I will be discussing what’s going on in the SBC in order to understand why the whole sex abuse thing has been placed on the back-burner. Chris Conlee is merely reflecting the actions of the SBC.
  • Conlee has never apologized to Jules and I doubt he will. He is too visionary to waste his time with something that will not return $$$ to his coffers.
  • I am concerned about this Race for Reconciliation. Memphis folks better keep an eye on the cash contributions and distributions.
  • Conlee and Savage are just part of the long Conga Line of fallen pastors who start again.
  • Savage and Conlee have helped me to understand why some non-denominational churches are problematic. They teach light theology and offer cheap grace. However, the SBC is no better and I will be discussing the problems in Part 2 on Wednesday.

 Bonheoffer on Cheap Grace

Cheap grace means grace sold on the market like cheapjacks’ wares. The sacraments, the forgiveness of sin, and the consolations of religion are thrown away at cut prices. Grace is represented as the Church’s inexhaustible treasury, from which she showers blessings with generous hands, without asking questions or fixing limits. Grace without price; grace without cost! The essence of grace, we suppose, is that the account has been paid in advance; and, because it has been paid, everything can be had for nothing. Since the cost was infinite, the possibilities of using and spending it are infinite. What would grace be if it were not cheap?…

Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.

Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man will go and sell all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy which the merchant will sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble; it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him.

Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock.

Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: “ye were bought at a price,” and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the Incarnation of God.”

Dedicated to all of those *conga* dudebros.

Comments

Part 1: Andy Savage and Chris Conlee Prove That Any Schmuck Can Start a Non-Denominational Church — 104 Comments

  1. should be “disqualified from preaching” is a sticky wicket when no qualifications are required in the first place. a seminary near where you grew up is in trouble now for this exact reason – an MDiv isn’t required, just the ability to raise money.

  2. Im not really sure what to make of this post.

    #129 S. Center St. comes up as a Post Office. The South side of the building is a pet rescue. So, #129 has a P.O. Box #131 inside?

    No PPP loans are listed to GVC.
    No PPP loans to a possible GVC/DBA…
    GVC does not come up as an entity.
    GVC appears available as an entity name in the State of Tennessee.

  3. Nathan Priddis:
    Im not really sure what to make of this post.

    #129 S. Center St. comes up as a Post Office. The South side of the building is a pet rescue. So, #129 has a P.O. Box #131 inside?

    No PPP loans are listed to GVC.
    No PPP loans to a possible GVC/DBA…
    GVC does not come up as an entity.
    GVC appears available as an entity name in the State of Tennessee.

    Correction. Corporate name is taken and list a place of business in a private residence.

  4. What Seminary?

    d4v1d:
    should be “disqualified from preaching” is a sticky wicket when no qualifications are required in the first place. a seminary near where you grew up is in trouble now for this exact reason – an MDiv isn’t required, just the ability to raise money.

  5. Meanwhile…

    “McDonald’s is suing former CEO Steve Easterbrook to recoup tens of millions of $$$ in severance and benefits.

    “The fast food giant alleges he covered up and lied about sexual relationships with at least three employees.

    “The lawsuit came nine months after McDonald’s ousted Mr Easterbrook without cause, after determining he had engaged in a “non-physical” and “consensual” relationship with an employee that violated the fast food chain’s policy.”

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-11/asx-wall-street-tech-records-mcdonalds-lawsuit/12544252

  6. Ava Aaronson,

    Furthermore …

    “… McDonald’s said Easterbrook no longer deserved that payout because of his ‘silence and lies,’ and that had its board known the full picture it would have fired him ‘for cause.'”

    – from same linked article above.

    A$piring to integrity in running an enterpri$e.

  7. These actions are quite painful for Jules as well as for many others who supported her during that terrible time. Why couldn’t they have started their churches in another locale?

    Because then how could they rub it in everyone’s face?
    “I. WIN.”

    *Bob on a bike* is holding him accountable.

    WHO the hell is “Bob on a Bike”?
    Is he anything like that mystery guy at the gas station in backwoods Wyoming who Anointed and Prophesied J Mac to make his Comeback?

    If one is hoping to find lots of Benjamins in the plate, Collierville is a good choice because it’s a well off community. Here is a description from Wikipedia.

    i.e. WHERE THE REAL MONEY IS.

    His wife breathlessly published *A Letter to Memphis.* I guess she thinks that the entire city of Memphis has been waiting for this letter.

    Of course all Memphis is waiting with baited breath!
    “SEE HOW IMPORTANT WE ARE? SEE? SEE? SEE?”

    She wants you to know that Satan is going to be spreading half-truths, etc. I assume she means about Chris.

    “WE’RE SUCH GODLY UBER-CHRISTIANS SATAN HIMSELF HAS PERSONALLY TARGETED US FOR PERSECUTION!
    SEE HOW IMPORTANT WE ARE? SEE? SEE? SEE?”

    It always fascinates me when pastors jump from one thing to the next in order to keep them relevant.

    NOTHING GETS OLD-FASHIONED FASTER THAN OVER-RELEVANCE.
    EXCEPT PRETENTIOUS OVER-RELEVANCE.

    With some of these guys, the ridicule just writes itself…

  8. Ava Aaronson: “… McDonald’s said Easterbrook no longer deserved that payout because of his ‘silence and lies,’ and that had its board known the full picture it would have fired him ‘for cause.’”

    Once again, the Heathen(TM) show more integrity and sense of justice than the Christians(TM).

    Mene, Mene, Tekel, Uparshim.

  9. Who thinks this way? The MLK mention is like saying, “Don’t think about pink elephants.” Also, the Rev Dr Martin Luther King Jr was not assassinated “in our streets,” but on the balcony of his room at the Lorraine Motel. Is she drawing some kind of a short straight line from that tragedy and today’s demonstrations and unrest? Why the quick segue to what the Enemy is up to? Why does she think that everybody automatically fills silences by assuming the worst and building walls?

    Memphis is the complicated combination of the beautiful grit and grind and the pain of our city’s tragic past. The black eye of Dr. King’s assassination in our streets is not what God wants this city to be remembered for. He has a better way.

    God’s writing a new story that we want to be a part of. And as we absorbed the events of 2020 from Cleveland, we longed for the Lord to let us return our little light, and our commitment to be known by love, to the people of this city. We’re so grateful He spoke!

    On a personal level, as we come back to the city we love, I do have a little apprehension. I think of the way Satan likes to work. Silence, half-truths and division are three of his favorite weapons. In relationships, we often fill in gaps of silence with distrust. We take conjecture and speculation and create a new narrative that divides. It’s the same familiar formula that destroys friendships, families, cities, and countries. We assume the worst about each other and then build our walls.

  10. “His wife breathlessly published *A Letter to Memphis.* I guess she thinks that the entire city of Memphis has been waiting for this letter.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    apparently she was just talking off the cuff while driving, making a memo and recording at the same time.

    like, “…eggs, butter,…Memphis is the complicated combination of the beautiful grit and grind and the pain of our city’s tragic past… green apples… The black eye of Dr. King’s assassination in our streets-CHLORINE BLEACH!…is not what God wants this city to be remembered for. remind chris to tell the barber ‘ears and nose’. God’s writing a new story that we want to be a part of-peaches-And as we absorbed the events of 2020 from Cleveland-toothpaste-we longed for the Lord…”

    i really don’t think so.

  11. A touch of charisma + gift of gab + bag of gimmicks + gullible audience = successful church start up. No anointing from God required, no calling to ministry needed. Cheap grace in motion.

  12. Erp:
    I think Chris Conlee’s web site may have been hacked given pages like “The Way to Obtain a Woman Who’s an Asian Mail Order Wife”
    https://chrisconlee.net/the-way-to-obtain-a-woman-whos-an-asian-mail-order-wife/
    which means the Give button may not even end up going where Conlee is expecting it to go.

    Hacked Smacked, erp. Thats no hack. That’s wise pastoral words for the ages. Just consider these words of wisdom:

    “A number of the women have online forums or profiles that they place in, nevertheless they have been few and far between. One of the explanations for this is you don’t know if you will get exactly what you buy. The other rationale is there isn’t any guarantee that you are going to get a bride…”..

    You just don’t know in this life…what your about to buy into.
    That is the truth. And just how many frustrated, sans bride young mens groups are out there? It’s a big bride-less world.

  13. Dee wrote, “How did Conlee, who helped start HIghpoint which was a member of the SBC and The Gospel Coalition, make such an abrupt turn and join some highly questionable, charismatic groups on steroids, is hard for me to fathom.”

    I’ve seen it happen once, except it was in the other direction, from weird to more normal. Somehow the weirdo got a sweet gig and is raking in a big salary. My guess is that these characters who turn on a dime don’t have any core beliefs but are mostly opportunists who believe in themselves. Said weirdo certainly cared mostly about himself as far as I could ever see, anyway. He dumped the first church that he had nearly run off the rails and ran.

  14. Why Memphis for Andy? I think because that is because he is most comfortable there, most of all, and he has shown that he is all about Andy. That’s his base. And I think that his odds of succeeding are probably best there because many, maybe most, Christians have a defective view of pastoral qualifications and grace. It’s almost like there is a competition for who can be most “gracious” and “forgiving.” So, I think it is likely that there will be more than a few people from his former life who will join in this new venture. There will be rationalizations all around, and everyone will feel good about everyone else, so all will be well in their world and no one will give a thought to Jules.

  15. “One of the problems Chris is most passionate about solving is racism and all of its related injustices”
    ++++++++++++

    wow! chris is going to solve racism!

  16. Ava Aaronson,

    “McDonald’s is suing former CEO Steve Easterbrook to recoup tens of millions of $$$ in severance and benefits.

    “The fast food giant alleges he covered up and lied about sexual relationships with at least three employees.

    “The lawsuit came nine months after McDonald’s ousted Mr Easterbrook without cause, after determining he had engaged in a “non-physical” and “consensual” relationship with an employee that violated the fast food chain’s policy.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    the SBC could do this…

    blimey… so when doesn’t the secular world have higher moral and integrity standards than christian organizations??

    it’s like the christian bubble assumes everyone on the outside are demonic goblins, therefore what’s a little lying, a little self-dealing, a little indiscretion… “we have lots of latitude in what we can rationalize away, and since we’re doing it for God we’ll still be lily white in comparison”.

  17. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    “NOTHING GETS OLD-FASHIONED FASTER THAN OVER-RELEVANCE.
    EXCEPT PRETENTIOUS OVER-RELEVANCE.”
    ++++++++++

    like the man whose hair gets darker and darker or brighter and brighter as he gets older and older?

  18. elastigirl: moral and integrity standards

    There/not there.

    “Some of these guys [leaders], you meet them, you’re chatting, and you look them in the eye, and then you realize, oh, this guy’s gone.

    “Privilege is toxic. Sadly. Things that people struggle to achieve, they get to positions of power, influence, money, can do things, it has a toxic effect on their judgment.”

    Question – How do you do it, become successful & retain integrity/values?

    “I fell in love with the work, and the work was joyful, difficult, interesting, and that was my focus. … I work alot.”

    -Seinfeld, “Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee”, Season 7, Episode 1
    https://youtu.be/UM-Q_zpuJGU?t=821

  19. At the end of the day, the only way this stops is for people to stop going to these start ups. It’s all up to the laity. Even a denominational pastor who has been disciplined and defrocked can go start his own church if he wants to and can gather an audience. Tullian was kicked out of the PCA and that hasn’t stopped him.

    As long as people care more about personal charisma than character, this will go on.

  20. This is so predictable. This is their profession and they are interested in/capable of nothing else.

    I have about decided that a ‘new’ church of any kind is a bad bet, and will stick with something that’s been around a while and had a few leadership changes..

  21. I have a difference of opinion on this one because I believe today’s seminaries corrupt the young Christian. Most preachers back in the day were not seminary trained. They started their church by going door to door, meeting with you. Going to hospitals and care homes to visit the sick and elderly. They didn’t make their already tax free status non profits 501c3. They didn’t take massive paychecks. They lived modestly and if extra funds were necessary they took on a part time job. I grew up a JW and when I was taken in by some Christians I was made to go to their church. No one made me feel like I had to convert I just had to attend as being part of their families.
    Pastor Royal Blue I will never forget him. He preached from the pulpit with the love of Christ. He drove the same car for 20 something years and one day the church presented him with a new car. He rarely went anywhere to preach meaning he wasn’t concerned about being popular. My youth pastor pastor Rich Rutledge worked as a manager at a grocery store in addition to serving the youth selflessly. He and his wife loved us opened their home every week. My best years were spent in a church where money wasn’t given so abundantly to the pastors as it is given today to men who come out of seminary expecting six figure pay packages. I believe to be a preacher you truly need to be called and God will do the rest with that man. He will give him everything he needs to teach His church.
    A friend of mine whose an elder at a little church here is seeing this cream into their church. The mindset that pastors need big paychecks and pay raises. Their pastor took a 6% pay raise he said when they have nothing for the youth! There isn’t even a youth group no place for them no gatherings for the teens. The seniors want a place for them yet it seems the pastors paycheck takes precedence. Now this coming from a 78 year old man who helped start this church and they literally built it with their own hands. The seniors are more concerned with the youth it seems than the pastor and younger group of men in the church. This pastor is seminary trained. I’m sorry but seminary’s seem to be the credential one needs in order to learn to build or take over non profit corporations not churches. Just my 2 cents worth!

  22. Shauna: Most preachers back in the day were not seminary trained. They started their church by going door to door, meeting with you. Going to hospitals and care homes to visit the sick and elderly. They didn’t make their already tax free status non profits 501c3. They didn’t take massive paychecks.

    I take your point, but it’s not just either/or. I’ve spent most of my life in traditions where pastors attended good, academically rigorous seminaries. The one near me requires study of Biblical Greek and Hebrew as well as lots of other difficult courses. It also requires working in the community, under supervision. Seminarians have to have psychological testing, to reduce the risk of graduating predators and sociopaths. Ordination is related, but it’s a separate process overseen by a committee of church members.

    I think the average time to ordination is 5 years, including 3 at seminary. An impatient person seeking an adoring crowd and riches might not be too attracted, as the wages are not that great. The process puts aspiring pastors under a lot of stress, forcing them to mature and learn skills that they will need when they are serving a congregation.

  23. Serving Kids in Japan: This “reinventing” of himself may have been in the works for some time. Too bad it didn’t include actual repentance.

    Most of these characters would shout “Repent of what?!!”

    They just don’t get it.

  24. Friend: Seminarians have to have psychological testing, to reduce the risk of graduating predators and sociopaths.

    Good start.

    Although, with “Why Nations Fail: The Origins of Power, Prosperity, and Poverty”, MIT economist Daron Acemoglu and U of Chicago political scientist James A. Robinson point out that historically a leader’s character is never completely evident until they are in the very top position. Unpredictable. Power can change everything.

  25. Gram3: Why Memphis for Andy? … That’s his base.

    Actors would have no stage if they didn’t have a faithful paying audience willing to buy a ticket to the show. Mr. Savage has sufficient following in Memphis of like-minded sheep for a quick start-up … it would be a tougher row to hoe if he started somewhere else.

    Gram3: many, maybe most, Christians have a defective view of pastoral qualifications and grace. It’s almost like there is a competition for who can be most “gracious” and “forgiving.”

    There is a segment of churchgoers in America who desire to have “pastors” with a past … the nastier the better in some cases … it makes them feel better about their own sinfulness if the pastor hasn’t lived Christlike either. Cheap Grace makes room for them all … Costly Grace demands so much more.

  26. Ava Aaronson: Question – How do you do it, become successful & retain integrity/values?

    This not too stale item may be of interest and relevant:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/07/power-causes-brain-damage/528711/

    I’m not aware of studies on how to prevent this process, or whether it can be reversed. Perhaps surrounding oneself with wise counselors who are not “yes men”, and heeding the safety of the counsel of many, would help.

    Another interesting question (orthogonal to the issues discussed in the above link) is the extent to which deficiencies in empathy are already present in people who aspire to power over others; such people would find it especially difficult to “recover” something that they never had.

    Dee’s lengthy observations suggest that not many make their way back from this condition.

  27. “He has a big, fat GIVE button on his website in case you wish to support his *ministry.*

    Conlee calls himself a *Visionary Leader* and plans to get busy solving the problem of racism. Since he never spent much time on this in the past, will he do so in his new church? Or is this simply another pastor jumping on the bandwagon until the next *important thing* arises.”

    Chris’s entrepreneurial spirit… Every vision is ultimately a solution to a problem. One of the problems Chris is most passionate about solving is racism and all of its related injustices;”

    “The races are opportunities to raise awareness and dollars for the purpose of overcoming systemic problems.”
    ++++++++++++

    oh how i love it when opportunists see human pain and suffering as dollar signs to launch a career move.

  28. Shauna,

    Friend,

    I suspect that some of the present problems in the churches are related to the “professional school” approach to training of ministers, which looks a bit like the way that medical doctors are trained, but with less post-graduate intensive oversight.

    One gets the impression from Paul’s letters to the churches that he preferred that leaders be selected from among older people (men in his context; women were of significantly lower social status in both Roman and Jewish culture at the time) whose character had already been proved in a variety of family and community contexts.

    The technical skills (ancient languages, homiletics, etc) that are considered indispensable for present-day church ministry can be learned in contexts other than residential seminary programs, and the public health emergency seems to be deprecating those anyway. But the human skills that are also indispensable (arguably more so than the technical skills) IMO cannot be learned quickly. That’s an argument for heeding Paul’s counsel to not hastily “ordain” the young.

  29. Samuel Conner: heeding Paul’s counsel to not hastily “ordain” the young

    SBC church plants are primarily “pastored” by unproven, inexperienced, immature young, restless and reformed fresh out of seminary … and traditional (non-Calvinist) churches which have been taken over by YRRs who entered the pulpits by stealth and deception. A perfect example of hasty ordination on an irresponsible large scale.

  30. Samuel Conner: That’s an argument for heeding Paul’s counsel to not hastily “ordain” the young.

    A lot of seminarians in academic programs are midlife career changers. All the ones I know have at least an undergraduate degree. They are quite a diverse bunch, too.

    In mainline churches, there’s a lively power dynamic between pastors and lay leaders and members. When I speak with clergy in our congregation, I actually feel like the more powerful person in the conversation… it’s kind of jarring. They ask my viewpoint before telling theirs, and then maybe even just explore my viewpoint without telling me what they think. Imagine that!

    It needs to be stipulated that the Roman Catholic Church has followed the academic model for a long time, but manages to have entrenched abuse. In the US, Catholic archdioceses now perform psych evals before letting people into seminary. There are no guarantees, alas.

  31. “One of the problems Chris is most passionate about solving is racism”
    ++++++++++

    as if racism is like the problem of bathroom towels left on the floor.

  32. elastigirl,

    I tried to post a similar thought at the same time last night, but the pugs were apparently extra hungry. It will probably show up on Dee’s lawn. 😉

    More seriously, I think that you’re on to something, but that her words are maybe not distracted but incomplete, showing a lack of critical thinking and empathy. Who just throws around references to the end of MLK’s life like that?

  33. Friend: A lot of seminarians in academic programs are midlife career changers.

    This is a better way, though it might be better still to have “pastor” be the post-career thing, what elderly people who are full of grace, wisdom and patience do instead of retiring to sunny climes.

    The most “pastoral” of the pastors I have known over multi-decades was a UMC minister who switched — from carpentry — to ministry in his mid-40s.

  34. Just received this from a young pastor: “Since I’ve become a pastor: I’ve been the first to tell a couple all of their grandchildren were murdered, held the hand of a lady who’s husband died unexpectedly, and walked with a family through the consequences of suicide.”

    As a pastor of 40 plus years I know a lot of pastors who minister like the one above and their paycheck is meager compared to responsibilities.

  35. elastigirl: Conlee calls himself a *Visionary Leader* and plans to get busy solving the problem of racism.

    Citizen Robespieere and Comrade Pol Pot were also “Visionary Leaders”.
    Both had Cosmic-level Visions of The Perfect that overrode everything and everyone else.

  36. elastigirl: it’s like the christian bubble assumes everyone on the outside are demonic goblins

    Remember all those Jack Chick tracts where the Christians look like Nordic Supermen and all the non-Christians look like Orcs Dipped in Dogsh*t?

  37. Gram3: It’s almost like there is a competition for who can be most “gracious” and “forgiving.”

    Virtue Signalling plus One-Upmanship.

  38. “In fact, few of us have ever assaulted anyone. So don’t try to sin level your molestation onto the backs of the rest of us, Savage.”

    This actually is one of the things that scares me the most about the New Calvinists and those that follow them. They believe that any male that toes the party line is “qualified” to be a pastor, no matter how badly they act or have acted.

    They’d rather have a child molester as a pastor than a highly-qualified woman. It’s very disturbing.

    On the other side, then they go and condemn the most minor of things in members and love to enact church discipline on them. This tells me that they don’t really believe what they say they believe. They just want a system where they are in control.

  39. This is an odd thing.
    The link erp posted (all jesting aside about ordering brides online) is discussing illegal activity. Connecting with foreign women is completely legitamate. But, it’s as lso a regulated activity in the US and you can go to prison for violating applicable statues. My understanding is the text of the link is dicribing an illegal work around of those statues. Specificly the transfer of data of children, and non-traceable contact.

    I can think of no law abiding reason for an American male to want contact with Asians under methods discussed in the link. Thats weird that it has the web address of a Christian minister.

  40. This is an odd thing.
    The link erp posted (all jesting aside about ordering brides online) is discussing illegal activity. Connecting with foreign women is completely legitamate. But, it’s as lso a regulated activity in the US and you can go to prison for violating applicable statues. My understanding is the text of the link is dicribing an illegal work around of those statues. Specificly the transfer of data of children, and non-traceable contact.

    I can think of no law abiding reason for an American male to want contact with Asians under methods discussed in the link. Thats weird that it has the web address of a Christian minister.

  41. This is an odd thing.
    The link erp posted (all jesting aside about ordering brides online) is discussing illegal activity. Connecting with foreign women is completely legitamate. But, it’s as lso a regulated activity in the US and you can go to prison for violating applicable statues. My understanding is the text of the link is dicribing an illegal work around of those statues. Specificly the transfer of data of children, and non-traceable contact.

    I can think of no law abiding reason for an American male to want contact with Asians under methods discussed in the link. Thats weird that it has the web address of a Christian minister.

  42. This is an odd thing.
    The link erp posted (all jesting aside about ordering brides online) is discussing illegal activity. Connecting with foreign women is completely legitamate. But, it’s as lso a regulated activity in the US and you can go to prison for violating applicable statues. My understanding is the text of the link is dicribing an illegal work around of those statues. Specificly the transfer of data of children, and non-traceable contact.

    I can think of no law abiding reason for an American male to want contact with Asians under methods discussed in the link. Thats weird that it has the web address of a Christian minister.

  43. FYI, Liberty University cancelled its 2020 commencement, which had been pushed to September 12th:

    Here is the extremely informative announcement on the website:

    https://www.liberty.edu/commencement/

    (Currently just says: ‘Commencement 2020: Canceled’ with no link or statement)

  44. FYI, Liberty University cancelled its 2020 commencement, which had been pushed to September 12th:

    Here is the extremely informative announcement on the website:

    https://www.liberty.edu/commencement/

    (Currently just says: ‘Commencement 2020: Canceled’ with no link or statement)

  45. FYI, Liberty University cancelled its 2020 commencement, which had been pushed to September 12th:

    Here is the extremely informative announcement on the website:

    https://www.liberty.edu/commencement/

    (Currently just says: ‘Commencement 2020: Canceled’ with no link or statement)

  46. FYI, Liberty University cancelled its 2020 commencement, which had been pushed to September 12th:

    Here is the extremely informative announcement on the website:

    https://www.liberty.edu/commencement/

    (Currently just says: ‘Commencement 2020: Canceled’ with no link or statement)

  47. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    i must have seen them somewhere, although i have absolutely no recollection of it ever happening.

    yes, that’s the mental image i have of something broadly communicated in christian culture to bolster the idea of us vs. them. christian elite vs. the evil worldly everyone else.

    to me, this is testament of how powerful visual images can be (in this case, christian propaganda. propaganda for jesus).

    you don’t even have to have a conscious memory of ever seeing them, yet they leave an imprint.

  48. Samuel Conner,

    Excellent article. Now that you mention it, I remember reading this.

    What Seinfeld said about preventing the corruption of the soul that goes with power, is that he is still very busy with his work, that is challenging, interesting, & fulfilling. Even though he doesn’t have to work, he loves to work. (From the link I posted in the earlier comment.)

  49. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    i must have seen them somewhere, although i have absolutely no recollection of it ever happening.

    yes, that’s the mental image i have of something broadly communicated in christian culture to bolster the idea of us vs. them. christian elite vs. the evil worldly everyone else.

    to me, this is testament of how powerful visual images can be (in this case, christian propaganda. propaganda for jesus).

    you don’t even have to have a conscious memory of ever seeing them, yet they leave an imprint.

  50. Sadly, it appears that folks like Savage and Conlee will always be out there until Jesus returns, providing plenty of fodder for watchblogs and news media. The American church in some corners is just too spiritually inept to keep these wolves out of the sheepfold.

  51. Sadly, it appears that folks like Savage and Conlee will always be out there until Jesus returns, providing plenty of fodder for watchblogs and news media. The American church in some corners is just too spiritually inept to keep these wolves out of the sheepfold.

  52. Sadly, it appears that folks like Savage and Conlee will always be out there until Jesus returns, providing plenty of fodder for watchblogs and news media. The American church in some corners is just too spiritually inept to keep wolves out of the sheepfold.

  53. Sadly, it appears that folks like Savage and Conlee will always be out there until Jesus returns, providing plenty of fodder for watchblogs and news media. The American church in some corners is just too spiritually inept to keep these wolves out of the sheepfold.

  54. elastigirl: it’s like the christian bubble assumes everyone on the outside are demonic goblins, therefore what’s a little lying, a little self-dealing, a little indiscretion… “we have lots of latitude in what we can rationalize away, and since we’re doing it for God we’ll still be lily white in comparison”.

    You are correct. As I have written before, I was definitely taught that the fundy bubble I was trained in (7-12 grade) thought it had the corner on pious living, and the world was as you say a bunch of heathens, or demonic, etc. It made me uncomfortable initially interacting with people outside of the bubble, until I really began to notice that they are not as “wild” as I was told.. in fact, many seemed to care about other people much more than many of my fundy leaders..
    And, professionally, the standards are much higher than the average church today, and as I think about it, these standards are higher than they were in the past..
    As I said, my dorm at Berkeley was mild.. and many of the people were very good people..

  55. elastigirl: it’s like the christian bubble assumes everyone on the outside are demonic goblins, therefore what’s a little lying, a little self-dealing, a little indiscretion… “we have lots of latitude in what we can rationalize away, and since we’re doing it for God we’ll still be lily white in comparison”.

    You are correct. As I have written before, I was definitely taught that the fundy bubble I was trained in (7-12 grade) thought it had the corner on pious living, and the world was as you say a bunch of heathens, or demonic, etc. It made me uncomfortable initially interacting with people outside of the bubble, until I really began to notice that they are not as “wild” as I was told.. in fact, many seemed to care about other people much more than many of my fundy leaders..
    And, professionally, the standards are much higher than the average church today, and as I think about it, these standards are higher than they were in the past..
    As I said, my dorm at Berkeley was mild.. and many of the people were very good people..

  56. elastigirl: it’s like the christian bubble assumes everyone on the outside are demonic goblins, therefore what’s a little lying, a little self-dealing, a little indiscretion… “we have lots of latitude in what we can rationalize away, and since we’re doing it for God we’ll still be lily white in comparison”.

    I completely agree… I was trained in my fundamentalist schools that we had the true pious, righteous path, and outside the bubble they lost and did not really understand true morality… it first made me “uncomfortable” in the “world” until I realized that “the world” was not what they had claimed… I found people that were more loving of others, or just plan more caring then the fundy leaders.. and, my world definitely has higher professional standards than ANY church or church organization I know of.. TWW has helped me to see that my personal experiences are actual wide spread in American Christianity…

  57. Hi Shauna:

    Some of the problem with new pastors expecting big paychecks could be the cost of seminary. I believe it is not uncommon for many of the new grads to carry a heavy debt load in the thousands, hard to pastor that small church and pay your school loan.

    I am glad that we do have seminary’ trained individuals who teach and serve but the most important criteria IMHO is a true love for God and his people. A servants heart will be more helpful that a cold heart with a seminary degree

  58. Hi Shauna:

    Some of the problem with new pastors expecting big paychecks could be the cost of seminary. I believe it is not uncommon for many of the new grads to carry a heavy debt load in the thousands, hard to pastor that small church and pay your school loan.

    I am glad that we do have seminary’ trained individuals who teach and serve but the most important criteria IMHO is a true love for God and his people. A servants heart will be more helpful that a cold heart with a seminary degree

  59. elastigirl: blimey… so when doesn’t the secular world have higher moral and integrity standards than christian organizations??

    it’s like the christian bubble assumes everyone on the outside are demonic goblins, therefore what’s a little lying, a little self-dealing, a little indiscretion… “we have lots of latitude in what we can rationalize away, and since we’re doing it for God we’ll still be lily white in comparison”.

    This is the impression one gets from too many leaders in the Evangelical world.

  60. elastigirl: blimey… so when doesn’t the secular world have higher moral and integrity standards than christian organizations??

    it’s like the christian bubble assumes everyone on the outside are demonic goblins, therefore what’s a little lying, a little self-dealing, a little indiscretion… “we have lots of latitude in what we can rationalize away, and since we’re doing it for God we’ll still be lily white in comparison”.

    This is the impression one gets from too many leaders in the Evangelical world.

  61. elastigirl: blimey… so when doesn’t the secular world have higher moral and integrity standards than christian organizations??

    it’s like the christian bubble assumes everyone on the outside are demonic goblins, therefore what’s a little lying, a little self-dealing, a little indiscretion… “we have lots of latitude in what we can rationalize away, and since we’re doing it for God we’ll still be lily white in comparison”.

    This is the impression one gets from too many leaders in the Evangelical world.

  62. Is anyone having trouble accessing TWW? I can access it but someone said she can’t get on. Could someone leave a comment here to let me know the site is functioning?

  63. Chuck: I believe it is not uncommon for many of the new grads to carry a heavy debt load in the thousands, hard to pastor that small church and pay your school loan.

    I am glad that we do have seminary’ trained individuals who teach and serve but the most important criteria IMHO is a true love for God and his people. A servants heart will be more helpful that a cold heart with a seminary degree

    I understand what you’re saying, and would also like to push back just a little.

    Crushing debt is a terrible thing, but church size is not the only factor that determines a pastor’s income.

    Re: cold hearts and seminaries, it is of course not either/or. Plenty of fundamentalist and evangelical Christians are suspicious of education beyond what they themselves totally know to be True. Many Christians are cold. Plenty of “loving” Christians feel obliged to hate.

    When I was a teen, the only people who tried to talk me out of going to college were adults at church: “Oh, it will hurt your faith.” Most of them had college degrees. I don’t think any of them believed that education had harmed them.

    The love of God and of humankind is absolutely needed, but that is only one ingredient. Pastors need wisdom and specific knowledge, whether from seminary training or some other source.

  64. Nathan Priddis: This is an odd thing.

    Very odd.

    On an overseas business trip, at a social event I observed such a couple, 40ish(?). He was from Wisconsin wearing a Harley T-shirt, she was a local. They had met online, duh. Odd: the two shared no common language. They would duck out of the group & then return. Apparently there were shared interests/activities, conversation not being one of them. Creepy.

  65. dee: Is it working now.

    Looks like one of my comments from last evening was posted 4 times … I guess I made that point!

  66. Max,

    Too funny!!!! Really, really appreciate it when you guys let me know if something isn’t working. Since I could see the site I assumed all was well. I discovered the problem when I tried to post.

  67. dee: I discovered the problem when I tried to post.

    Honestly, I thought I had posted a Bad Word, and didn’t want to pester you. So thanks for the encouragement to let you know.

  68. Jeffrey J Chalmers: fundamentalist schools that we had the true pious, righteous path, and outside the bubble they lost and did not really understand true morality

    Not saying “the world” – whatever that means – owns the higher moral ground.

    However, what is confusing to outsiders, looking for moral community & integrity & biblical living authenticity, is that while talking a good line, the fundamentalists seem to major in hypocrisy (strict moral code as cover for predation).

    1-Like the stuff Todd Wilhelm uncovers, rampant in one particular denom.
    2-And the hundreds of predators of public record as itemized by the Houston Chronicle.
    3-Many cases brought to light here at TWW. Religion & theology as a cover for evil.

    It is the ultimate deception. Evil disguised as “pure” light. How can this be?

  69. I digress to keep you all informed:

    Last night I tweeted about Barnabas Piper, son of John Piper getting remarried. He announced it on several social media platforms. I happened to know that he went through a messy divorce a few years ago.Apparently the former wife was difficult. I am very happy that he is remarrying.

    Now, there is a problem. John Piper was a present at the wedding and I saw a picture of John applauding his son after they said. their vows.

    The problem is this. Piper does not allow for ANY remarriages In his theology unless the former spouse has died. Yep, that’s it.

    I found the picture of him clapping for the marriage interesting. If he believes that such a remarriage is a problem, why would he clap? Why would he be there? Of course I understand. I would be there for my son. But Piper’s rules on remarriage have caused so much heartache.

    So I thought it might be interesting to tweet about it. I caused a firestorm. The dudebros showed up because they defend Piper even more vigorously than Jesus, in my opinion. Thankfully most people agreed with me .I knew this would happen. One particularly vociferous individual is an Mdiv student at SBTS. I bet he’ll be offered a really good job for defending John Piper, the Grand Poobah of All that is Christian.

  70. dee: The dudebros showed up because they defend Piper even more vigorously than Jesus, in my opinion.

    Why would they defend Jesus over Piper? They don’t talk about Jesus much; they preach about sovereign “God”, but refer only to Jesus occasionally and the Holy Spirit is seldom mentioned. Heck, Piper and other New Calvinist icons get more sermon time than Christ!

  71. Chuck: Some of the problem with new pastors expecting big paychecks could be the cost of seminary. I believe it is not uncommon for many of the new grads to carry a heavy debt load in the thousands, hard to pastor that small church and pay your school loan.

    If you attend a Southern Baptist church, attending a SBC seminary is very cheap. Half of your tuition is paid by the Cooperative Program and the price isn’t very high anyway.

    With the increase in fully-online programs, it’s not that hard to go to seminary at a very affordable price while working full-time. A lot of students are also supported by their spouses.

    It’s also not uncommon for these nondenom churches are started with people who do not have any seminary education. It may be that some have large undergrad tuition, but unless they went somewhere like Emory, which is uncommon for evangelical churches, then there’s probably other reasons.

    I’ve met many of these guys. They have dollar signs in their eyes from the outset. They don’t care about ministry at all, but fame and fortune.

  72. ishy: I’ve met many of these guys. They have dollar signs in their eyes from the outset. They don’t care about ministry at all, but fame and fortune.

    Which is why the main-lines will survive and thrive long after the ‘independents’ dry up and blow away like so many Walmart bags scattered along the roadway.

  73. dee: The dudebros showed up because they defend Piper even more vigorously than Jesus, in my opinion.

    Etiquette question: do we have to wait until he is dead before we insert “(pbuh)” after mentioning his name?

  74. Ken F (aka Tweed): Etiquette question: do we have to wait until he is dead before we insert “(pbuh)” after mentioning his name?

    “Augustus wasn’t proclaimed a god until after his death;
    Caligula, however, wants to be a god while he’s alive to enjoy it.”
    — Alistair Cooke intro commentary to “I, Claudius”