Darrin Patrick Has Died From a Self Inflicted Gun Shot and Ravi Zacharias Has Come Home to Die


Women in Sorrow

“We were promised sufferings. They were part of the program. We were even told, ‘Blessed are they that mourn,’ and I accept it. I’ve got nothing that I hadn’t bargained for. Of course it is different when the thing happens to oneself, not to others, and in reality, not imagination.” ― C.S. Lewis, A Grief Observed


 

I’m taking a legal COVID trip with my husband. For tonight, I had planned a humorous article I wrote 8 years ago. It is totally inappropriate given the events of the day. Please join me in praying for the wives and their children.

Darrin Patrick: RIP

I will have more to say about this tragedy at a more appropriate time.

Julie Roys posted Restored Pastor & Former Acts 29 VP Darrin Patrick Dies Unexpectedly

At 5:58 EDT, Seacoast disclosed that Darrin Patrick died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound. The church said Patrick was  target shooting with a friend at the time of death and no foul play is suspected.

…Patrick was the founding pastor of The Journey, a megachurch in St. Louis with five campuses. He also served on the council of The Gospel Coalition and with Acts 29, and was the author of several popular books, including The Dude’s Guide to Manhood and Church Planter.  For a time, he also served as the chaplain of the St. Louis Cardinals.

However, four years ago, Patrick was fired from The Journey, a megachurch in St. Louis, for a pattern of sinful behaviors, including an emotional affair and  “a history of building his identity through ministry and media platforms.”

Patrick reportedly submitted to a 26-month restoration plan that included 200 hours of professional counseling and regular meetings with several pastors.

In 2017, I posted Restoration Craziness: Tullian Tchividjian Returns and Darrin Patrick Ditches Calvinism for the ARC

At this time I have decided not to repeat what you can read on that post. However, I will say that I have been concerned for years over the quick restoration plans for struggling pastors.

Ravi Zacharias has returned home to spend his last time with his family.

Here is the link to his Facebook page.

Today my daughter, Sarah, shared this update with our global staff at RZIM. God is with us.

“Dear Friends,

Thank you so much for your faithful prayers for my dad and for my family in recent months as he has undergone back surgery and treatment for cancer. Truly, words fail to convey the depths of our gratitude for your many expressions of love.

We have just learned that while the tumor in my dad’s sacrum has been responding to the chemotherapy, the area where the cancer metastasized has actually worsened. His oncologist informed us that this cancer is very rare in its aggression and that no options for further treatment remain. Medically speaking, they have done all they are able.

Ravi, Margie, and Naomi are returning from Houston and will remain at home in Atlanta, where our family can be together for whatever time the Lord gives us.

We are so grateful to God for His goodness and His love that we have seen evidenced in so many ways. The love and care that you have given to us is one of the most beautiful expressions of God’s kindness. We are deeply grateful for the care of the medical teams at MD Anderson Cancer Center, and the friendship and love of those who served and cared so faithfully and came alongside in many generous and unexpected ways.

After many weeks of separation, our family is anxious to spend time together. You are also our family. We love you and are grateful to share these thin places with you. Thank you for what each of you do to faithfully support my dad’s work and calling, and to advance the cause of evangelism around the world.

We know that God has purposed and numbered each of our days, and only He knows how many more Ravi will experience on this earth. One day, likely sooner than later, we will be serving without our beloved founder, though I know his love and legacy will convict and inspire us to service of his Lord even greater than we have seen before. While we are full of so many emotions, we are also at peace, resting in the truth that God knows all and sees all and is sovereign and good. I think of the great joy my dad will have, and I am comforted.

Thank you for taking this journey with us, and as always, for your faithful prayers.

With much love and on behalf of Ravi, Margie, Naomi, and Nathan,

Sarah Davis
CEO of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries”

“The death of a beloved is an amputation.” ― C.S. Lewis, A Grief Observed

Comments

Darrin Patrick Has Died From a Self Inflicted Gun Shot and Ravi Zacharias Has Come Home to Die — 103 Comments

  1. “He talked about being part of a group of young pastors who became celebrities with book deals, speaking gigs, fame and money but little spiritual maturity.

    “It was a recipe for disaster,” he said.”

    So sad … so very very sad. Perhaps this moment will be a turning point for others. My burden has increased for what the New Calvinist movement has done to our youth.

  2. I just read an article on Christianity Today about his death and his life after the fall from ministry in St Louis. His soul is in the hands of God and his history on earth complex and completed. My heart goes out to his wife and their children as they grapple with grief and life without him.

  3. I am sorry to hear Ravi as I have been blessed by his ministry over the years and while I do not know who Mr. Patrick was I feel for his family at their loss. May the above two situations remind us that our lives are short on the this earth and that we need to love and cherish those that God has put into our lives.

    As a gentle rebuke, RD does it really matter if your “first?” when tragic news like this is shared? It seems in bad taste to do the above.

  4. “Seacoast disclosed that Darrin Patrick died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound. The church said Patrick was target shooting with a friend at the time of death and no foul play is suspected.”

    How is this an accident and not suicide or assisted suicide? I can understand an accidental discharge of the rifle but the bullet had to hit in a fatal part of his body… Legitimat questions linger in my mind.

  5. Max,

    There is much, much more to this situation. When the time is appropriate, I’m going to express my deep concern regarding the ARC and other groups re: restoration when there is obvious pain.

  6. drstevej,

    That was their way of saying that it was suicide. Their will be an autopsy. It is almost always performed in these circumstances.

  7. I hope that Ravi Zacharias will take the opportunity to confess and apologise for his sexual predation, and begin making amends to his victims, before he dies.

  8. 3 comments removed/not approved due to the subject matter of this post. No one did anything wrong.

  9. drstevej,

    We are always so quick to want to know how someone died. I think it’s more important to offer condolences, pray for the family, and contemplate our own mortality.

  10. Rather this was an accident or intentional suicide for Patrick one thing is clear: Death is the end here for all of us. Ravi is heading there too, but in his case he still has a little time left to make right the wrongs he has committed. I would not want to be a man who has chosen to use God’s power and His Word in order to leverage myself into a place of power over human beings. Jesus did not die so that certain men could become more equal than the rest of us. He did not die so that any third party should become the center of attention of other human beings. That is just having a leader turn himself into an idol that others stumble over. Jesus did not die so that others could make themselves rich and famous selling a lot of books or make a career for themselves traveling around collecting very large honorariums.

    I have seen a cell in hell reserved for those who think that they are Christians, but are not. It was the most real place I have ever experienced. I do not want anyone to go there myself, but these do exist because some, actually too many, do go there. Jesus warned us about this in multiple places including Matt. 23:33 while addressing the hypocritical religious leaders of His day. II Corin. 13:5, “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!” How tragic it is for any man to fail to obey these instructions from Paul and then suddenly meet his end. Heaven and hell are real places and when someone else dies it is always an opportunity to make sure we are going to graduate up instead of down when our time comes. Time to put aside our own personal cares of this world and go look in the mirror in a healthy way.

  11. Just read your old posts successively referenced. I’ve heard a lot of vague talk about “grace”. I’ve heard about the power struggle (dialectic or pincer movement). A neglectful pastor (here in the UK) was touted as “wounded healer”. I heard boasting of hypocrisy in a “movement” in 1986 but some of its followers after 34 years are now ashamed of their lack of pride in their hypocrisy or do I mean ashamed of their lack of hypocrisy about their pride or . . .

    I’ve witnessed the church planting (occasionally semi-good), the Jesus Freaks (which I was), bad dispensations, loud and vacuous rock concerts, talk of things “apostolic”. Sentimentality, mania, hysteria, browbeating, blackmail. Written notes taken in mass interviews being brought out again next time.

    Mystique, mysticism and mysteriousness. Pharisaical theosophy. Counterfeiting OF the occult. “Praying something into existence”. Bad business deals that get run by us as if to implicate us. Very frequent oaths and invocations.

    I’ve always loved how colourful religion is (across a bewildering variety of denominations, sometimes two or three timing).

    Control by people from elsewhere whom you don’t know, through the most po-faced of your locals who got whisked off for special weekends to be groomed for the role (whom we somehow found ourselves “electing” of course).

    Endangerment of under 16s and under 18s. Exemption from safeguarding and financial oversight (these exemptions can “genuinely” be arranged). Salacious talk (which goes out of & back in fashion).

    My own unique personal spice that I bring is:

    – I give less money as I go and have wangled a subsidy on some nice trips (at best, these people also do nice picnics which after all is a work of mercy)
    – my patchy attendance as a “stealth parishioner”
    – I “subliminally” intimate that I am not “material”

    I have been asked to leave several churches because I suggested improvements; it is not heartbreaking at the time, merely disorienting.

    Years later, the belly laughs are LOUD.

  12. Dee, if you like should my comment be posted under a different title?

    I must say we’ve had several cases of deceasing amidst sad church dynamics, always of little people.

  13. that our lives are short on the this earth and that we need to love and cherish those that God has put into our lives,

    Meaning to endorse this. Not only the current more sensible crop, but also those old “characters” were given me in acquaintance for a purpose.

  14. Sad to hear this, for both families. Tragic stories, in different ways.

    Every day is a gift. I’m going to try to appreciate today.

  15. Chuck:
    I am sorry to hear Ravi as I have been blessed by his ministry over the years and while I do not know who Mr.
    @
    As a gentle rebuke, RD does it really matter if your “first?” when tragic news like this is shared?It seems in bad taste to do the above.

    I agree. (And also with the 1st “BAM” on the sexual abuse posts. I am hurting everytime I see it.)
    Very difficult news about both. May God comfort heir families.

  16. Michael,

    all the observations you describe can easily be deemed “biblical”.

    any self-serving thing can be declared biblical by someone wearing an influencer’s hat, and people will buy it.

    but this is old news, of course.

    personally, i’m amazed that christian culture is so behind and late-to-the-game in realizing this, throwing ‘biblical’ around like a pocketfull of trump cards so they always win.

    (at the same time not amazed, knowing it takes for things to dawn on the citizens of christian culture)

  17. Quick restoration is a huge problem. It’s not good for the fallen pastor or for the congregation.

    It is difficult however because a lot of people who go into the ministry don’t have any other skills. Part of the reason for quick restoration is so that they can provide for their families. I’ve long been of the mind that seminaries need to accept only people who have a degree/schooling in some other marketable field or in a trade, as well as some work experience in the secular world. It might at least slow down restoration in some cases.

  18. I’ll be praying for both of these families, especially the Patrick family and children. This is a hard thing to deal with.

  19. Very sad news. May the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort minister to those with troubles at this time and may Job’s comforters be kept away.

  20. CP has added an update. I don’t know if anything has happened since the update.
    Apparently now a rep for Seacoast Church says they don’t know if Darrin Patrick’s death by self inflicted gunshot wound was intentional or not.

  21. Robert,

    I’ll agree. My father went into bad depression on mission field so went back to being an engineer and mother a nurse.

  22. Robert,

    “a lot of people who go into the ministry don’t have any other skills. Part of the reason for quick restoration is so that they can provide for their families.

    …a degree/schooling in some other marketable field or in a trade, as well as some work experience in the secular world. It might at least slow down restoration in some cases.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    so many thoughts…

    but brain is tired from too many problems to solve (courtesy of covid-19), and hoping i can solve them vicariously through Solitaire. i’m solving each new hand faster and faster! …i’m sure it’s chipping away at my other problems, somehow. but it’s tiring.

    to sum up my half-formed thoughts:

    monetizing ministry is a problem splitting off into a gaggle of other problems trailing behind.

    the biggest problem: rationalizing away what is foolish, dishonest, destructive, unethical, immoral, and illegal (which would be “sin”, wouldn’t it) for the sake of money/paychecks/revenue. whether one calls that restoration or business as usual.

    no, i can top that: doing it in the name of God.
    —————-

    so that’s all in one part of my brain.

    the other part of my brain feels the gravity of loss for these 2 families, and i am very sorry.

  23. Mr. Jesperson: I have seen a cell in hell reserved for those who think that they are Christians, but are not.

    Please stop. You are not helping anyone. This is not about your private revelations of Who Deserves Hell.

  24. Friend: Please stop. You are not helping anyone. This is not about your private revelations of Who Deserves Hell.

    I too say please stop.
    What did Zacharias do that was so horribly bad?
    Stuff having to do with another consenting adult and allegations of pelvic issues?
    I say so what.
    Nobody deserves hell for sexual improprieties with another consenting adult.

  25. Very sad news about Darrin Patrick. I saw a video some time after he had been in the restoration process, and it was heartwarming to see him speak so sincerely about what he had done, and was now doing to be right with God. I felt hopeful that one of these preachers who fall would actually allow God to work in him to transform him. I pray he found true peace with God before he died.

  26. Theda,

    Godith,

    Benjamin Ady,

    I need to say something here. I have seen much of the evidence regarding the complaints. I have spoken to the victim. I was shocked. Before that occurred, I knew he had lied about his bio. But this was something far bigger and deeply disturbing.

    Benjamin Ady’s comment is far closer to the truth. I have no problem with simple disagreement. But Theda, stop with the judgment on Benjamin’s soul. I have a feeling the Almighty has much to judge for you and me as well. That is why I am glad we have Jesus.

  27. I’m ambivalent about both men as I only heard the negative. I don’t know much about their respective ministries before issues arose.

    That being said, if there were victims then it’s the victim’s prerogative to forgive and from a Christian perspective it’s really up to God to judge the final result.

    To die by suicide is a tragedy and since I never had anything to do Zacharias, I don’t bear him any particular ill will.

    Sometimes I wonder about the high cost of celebrity on the celebrity themselves and those that placed faith in them.

    Of course as we’ve seen there are crimes and then there are crimes that go beyond any earthly redemption. That’s the justice here on earth (consequences of your actions).

    Once the mortal coil is shed, then in the Christian worldview it’s in God’s hand.

  28. Muff Potter: Stuff having to do with another consenting adult and allegations of pelvic issues?
    I say so what.
    Nobody deserves hell for sexual improprieties with another consenting adult

    Well, I suppose the “so what” becomes the hypocrisy of endorsing a holy life and basking in its reward (ie cash and tax free benefits). And unless the spouse and kids are on board, the action is hardly victimless.

    I agree that the assessment of who goes to heck belongs a higher pay grade.

  29. dee,

    I’ve read the raviwatch website. I still don’t see any sign of sexual predation. Lots of bad stuff, but not that. I await dee’s evidence.

  30. On the one year anniversary of the 2019 Mothers Day ‘Women in pulpit!’ snit, I thought I’d post some more history from Capitol Hill Baptist Church (now pastored by Mark Dever, church has been ‘always doctrinally conservative’, according to its website):

    [from 1915 & 1923 newspapers; the church was then named Metropolitan Baptist]

    https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045433/1915-01-09/ed-1/seq-5/

    “Metropolitan Baptist Church,
    6th and A sts. ne.
    John Compton Ball, pastor.

    11 a. m., preaching by Mrs. Lucy Waterbury Peabody.
    7:45 p. m., preaching by the pastor”

    https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045462/1923-10-20/ed-1/seq-41

    “METROPOLITAN
    SIXTH AND A STREETS N.E.
    John Compton Ball, Pastor
    …..
    EVANGELISTS REV. AND MRS. ELLERY ALDRIDGE.
    …..
    11:00—REV. ELLERY ALDRIDGE preaches
    …..
    7:45—MRS. ALDRIDGE preaches”

  31. Jerome,

    Good work digging up the facts.
    The only problem is that Dever and all his dude bros. ignore facts, and they want the pew-serfs to ignore them too.
    They live in a quasi-Orwellian regime (9-marks) similar to the one Winston Smith lived under, and to them it (Lucy preaching) never happened.

  32. Godith,

    Well, assuming the allegations are true, and it seems that they are, then there is definite evidence of manipulation on the part of Zacharias. And manipulation is a form of predation.

  33. Isn’t Godith a known Defender of Corrupt MenaGAWD?

    I remember the handle on this blog before.

  34. Godith,

    I am finding it hard to believe that you do not know about what happened. And you do know that Zacharias lied about his biography.

  35. Friend: Mr. Jesperson: I have seen a cell in hell reserved for those who think that they are Christians, but are not.

    Please stop. You are not helping anyone. This is not about your private revelations of Who Deserves Hell.

    “You read the Bible in your special ways
    You’re fond of quoting certain things it says –
    Mouth full of righteousness and wrath from above
    But when do we hear about forgiveness and love?”
    — Bruce Cockburn, “Gospel of Bondage”

  36. Robert,

    This is really good advice.
    I’m not sure who it was, maybe Pete Enns, who said also that quite a lot of seminaries need to stop churning out thousands of men who are equipped only for a few hundred jobs in various seminaries & academic fields. They are setting themselves up for horrendous debt & no prospect of decent employment.
    I’m also of the persuasion that anyone wanting to be a Pastor should have had years of work outside the church prior to trying to Pastor those in it.

  37. Beakerj: I’m also of the persuasion that anyone wanting to be a Pastor should have had years of work outside the church prior to trying to Pastor those in it.

    My church calls these “Second Vocations”, i.e. those who enter the clergy after a career on the outside.

    A former pastor of mine was like that. A Mexican immigrant, he was a construction worker for ten years before entering seminary. (Blue Collar all the way.) Said he entered seminary knowing only 20-30 words of English — all cusswords.

  38. dee,

    i’m really bothered by so many aspects to the greater situaton.

    Found this comment by Amy Moore from Stephen J. Bedard, Christian Apologetics, Leadership, Disabilities, History and More — Thoughts on Ravi Zacharias and Credibility:
    ————————

    “In the 3 yrs leading up to this story Ravi raised over $114M in cash based on his active promotion of these false credentials. My home church, Gateway Church Southlake, TX gave him over $2M in cash plus hundreds of thousands more in goods and services. Gateway Head Pastor Robert Morris raised millions more in addition to this directly from members all based on “Doctor” Zacharias’ extraordinary achievements, which included the lies about Cambridge and Oxford. He also threw Princeton in for good measure.

    No disrespect, but if Ravi had told the truth and revealed that he had only attended relatively small schools in NY and Canada, and had never pastored a church, he would have never been given a platform at Gateway let alone the millions of dollars in donations.

    During this same 3 yr time frame, Ravi aggressively raised $27M for a building in the poshest area of Atlanta, despite having no need for one. He paid $12M for the building and the remodeling contracts were under $1.5M. The building was already very luxurious with gorgeous landscaping so there was no need for additional expenditures. So where did the other $12M go?

    Ravi has previously taken loans out from RZIM to personally invest in speculative real estate, which is what the purchase of this new building is starting to seem like. Basically, it appears more like a Ravi Zacharias retirement account should his fundraising efforts diminish in future years.

    Ravi knew during the aggressive building fundraising that he was carrying on an illicit online affair with a young mother of four. He milked his false credentials along with lies about traveling over 220 days a year so that good, kind, decent people would open their hearts and wallets to him.

    This isn’t mere bragadociousness. This is a financial scheme based on fraudulent representations. In any other industry he would likely be looking at a criminal investigation.”
    ———————–

    (i think you prefer we don’t put links in comments. but it’s easy to find.)

  39. dee,

    I’d like to see the above information justified with Amy’s sources — not that i can’t hear the ring of credibility. I can.

    it is very much worth discussing further.

    to me, ravi zacharias is a quintessential example of the troubles in the evangelical industrial complex:

    christian celebrities who have been deemed “too big to fail” in christian culture. and so they are given a pass for egregious things done in the name of God, for self-centered purposes.

    i’m so bothered that christian culture hold up ravi zacharias as role model.

    he did good. he lied. he lied. i can’t get over that. once someone lies, nothing NOTHING they ever say again can be fully trusted.

    for squids’ sake, his whole ministry is about the credibility of jesus christ, and he destroys his own credibility in doing so. i’m not good at math, but that strikes me as a “net zero”.

    a less than zero — he did it in the name of God.

    WE NEED BETTER ROLE MODELS

    ROLE MODELS WHO ARE ABOVE LYING, FOR STARTERS. (now there’s a good title for a blog post)

    let alone lying while invoking the name of Jesus Christ.

    (good grief, it’s beyond disappointing that it even needs to be said)

  40. this article clarifies that he died in Missouri not South Carolina:

    https://www.postandcourier.com/news/sc-megachurch-pastor-dies-of-apparent-self-inflicted-gunshot-while-target-shooting/article_3cc3e2e2-9220-11ea-867b-0bd1bda308b8.html

    “A pastor at a megachurch with locations across South Carolina died Thursday from an apparent self-inflicted gunshot wound WHILE TARGET SHOOTING WITH A FRIEND IN A RURAL AREA OUTSIDE ST. LOUIS.”

    “Darrin Patrick, who LIVED WITH HIS WIFE AND FOUR CHILDREN IN ST. LOUIS, was an author and teaching pastor for Seacoast Church, headquartered in Mount Pleasant…Every four to six weeks, Patrick would come to Mount Pleasant from Missouri to preach and train staff at the church.”

  41. I like Isaiah 2 as it talks about the soon coming political revolution when Jesus returns and takes control of the nations. The Lord’s Mountain is a symbol of His rule and authority against the other mountains (governments) and tall trees (lies):
    verse 2: “In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and all nations will stream to it.”
    It picks up in 6: “You, Lord, have abandoned your people, the descendants of Jacob. They are full of superstitions from the East;
    they practice divination like the Philistines and embrace pagan customs. Their land is full of silver and gold; there is no end to their treasures. Their land is full of horses; there is no end to their chariots. Their land is full of idols; they bow down to the work of their hands, to what their fingers have made.
    So people will be brought low and everyone humbled—do not forgive them. Go into the rocks, hide in the ground from the fearful presence of the Lord and the splendor of his majesty! The eyes of the arrogant will be humbled and human pride brought low; the Lord alone will be exalted in that day.
    The Lord Almighty has a day in store for all the proud and lofty,
    for all that is exalted (and they will be humbled), for all the cedars of Lebanon, tall and lofty, and all the oaks of Bashan, for all the towering mountains and all the high hills, for every lofty tower and every fortified wall, for every trading ship and every stately vessel.
    The arrogance of man will be brought low and human pride humbled;
    the Lord alone will be exalted in that day, and the idols will totally disappear.
    People will flee to caves in the rocks and to holes in the ground
    from the fearful presence of the Lord and the splendor of his majesty, when he rises to shake the earth.
    In that day people will throw away to the moles and bats
    their idols of silver and idols of gold, which they made to worship.
    They will flee to caverns in the rocks and to the overhanging crags
    from the fearful presence of the Lord and the splendor of his majesty,
    when he rises to shake the earth.
    Stop trusting in mere humans, who have but a breath in their nostrils.
    Why hold them in esteem?”

    So, God’s judgment is also against trading ships? What else here has a clear meaning in the modern day world? This passage starts and ends with great passages. “Stop trusting in mere humans, who have but a breath in their nostrils. Why hold them in esteem?” Amen to that.

  42. elastigirl: WE NEED BETTER ROLE MODELS

    ROLE MODELS WHO ARE ABOVE LYING, FOR STARTERS. (now there’s a good title for a blog post)

    We need them in the world at large . . .

  43. Christianity Today Dec.3, 2017 article seems to present a plausible case re the Lori Anne Thompson case. I find the abortion advice and the false credentials very, very troubling. My point is, I don’t think he is/was a sexual or any kind of predator. I’ve never contributed to him or attended any of his seminars.

  44. elastigirl: once someone lies, nothing NOTHING they ever say again can be fully trusted.

    for squids’ sake, his whole ministry is about the credibility of jesus christ, and he destroys his own credibility in doing so. i’m not good at math, but that strikes me as a “net zero”.

    a less than zero — he did it in the name of God.

    WE NEED BETTER ROLE MODELS

    That’s so poignant about the present big man of one of the most “illustrious” of my extensive portfolio of former fellowships (best if I don’t give the brand name)

    For me I can laugh, but not for the huge vapour trail of erstwhile believers he has left behind him

  45. Chuck: As a gentle rebuke, RD does it really matter if your “first?” when tragic news like this is shared? It seems in bad taste to do the above.

    Friend: Please stop. You are not helping anyone. T

    Theda: Shame on you, and may God have mercy on your soul!

    Smack. Ouch. Would we speak like this to friends and colleagues face to face? Would we want to be rebuked ourselves like this? I think what the above comments are trying to accomplish is increasing empathy and sensitivity, but that isn’t the effect any of these comments have on this reader.

  46. I knew Darrin Patrick. I live in the small town where he and his wife grew up. In addition, I am an adult preacher’s kid. My dad was very human. But I grew up in a glass house and continue to carry those habits. Don’t be so harsh to judge him, please.

  47. Mr. Jesperson: I like Isaiah 2 as it talks about the soon coming political revolution when Jesus returns and takes control of the nations. The Lord’s Mountain is a symbol of His rule and authority against the other mountains

    People who mind their own P(s) and Q(s), and who don’t do the kinds of things to others they wouldn’t want done to themselves, need no ruler.

  48. Sarah M.: Would we speak like this to friends and colleagues face to face?

    Indeed I would, if the person had just said that two people—one dying, one recently dead—were headed to eternal torment. (Would you like for someone to say that about you or your loved one?)

    Apart from that, you might not be aware of ample background here. I did not make my comment in a vacuum.

  49. Dorothy,

    Whose judging him? We do not know that state of his or any person’s soul.That’s God’s job. However, we should judge both right and wrong actions, especially when the person involved makes themselves a public personage.

  50. Sarah M.,

    regardless of whether i agree with the comments, they seemed reasonable to me. nothing wrong with speaking directly, getting right to the point. nothing wrong with direct pushback in response, either.

  51. I believe Ravi was an active participant with the online sexual relationship. That is not the same as being a predator–that is the word I have disputed. Let’s not forget that Ravi’s wife is a victim of his emotional affair (for which he should have been disciplined in some way by his Board of Directors).
    What’s interesting is that this is not the first lawsuit Lori Anne and her husband have been involved in. Her husband sued a Christian Reformed pastor and his church concerning counseling and getting a loan before this occurred. Was the couple “on the make”? Possibly.
    I hope Ravi’s wife received support.

  52. ravi zacharias breeched the NDA he/his attorney(s) brokered when he entitled himself to ‘the last word’ in December 2017.

    why are there no consequences for that alone?

    is there no one but the silenced party to bring accountability to Ravi for doing this?

  53. elastigirl,

    I assume you refer to Margie Zacharias. She is a victim and perhaps an enabler. I can’t say the latter because I don’t know the details well enough. I do know it takes a strong woman to be able to stand up to a husband, first, because he is the main source of financial stability, and second, the husband can be violent or abusive in the face of being confronted by his wife (or children). Not an easy thing. There may be other cases of long-distance emotional affairs that have not come to light. It can be addictive. My heart goes out to her.

  54. Ravi was not perfect but he was truly a giant in the faith and an inspiration to so many. I first heard Ravi speak when I was in college. Thousands of non Christians came to hear him preach and teach. The influence of Ravi cannot be understated. Perhaps he made some mistakes along the way, but most of his ministry seems positive to me. He had a big influence on younger Christians and I am thankful for that.

  55. I listened to the last podcast (April 28) of Pastor Darrin with his friend Pastor Greg: “Pastors Need Friends, Too”. At one point Darrin said “It’s hard and confusing to be a pastor” and later “You don’t want to give up, and, you know, sometimes your friends die…” so sad

  56. Godith,

    “I hope they stay away from golf courses.”

    …or refrain from trusting a professional christian (beyond a few good things they might say). (i imagine they’ve learned that lesson well).

  57. TK: but he was truly a giant in the faith and an inspiration to so many.

    Until they learn he lied. And then they wonder what else he lied about. A giant in the faith would not lie about his accomplishments. For the record, I used to be a huge fan if his – because I did not do any fact-checking.

  58. TK,

    “Ravi was not perfect but he was truly a giant in the faith and an inspiration to so many. I first heard Ravi speak when I was in college. Thousands of non Christians came to hear him preach and teach. The influence of Ravi cannot be understated. Perhaps he made some mistakes along the way, but most of his ministry seems positive to me. He had a big influence on younger Christians and I am thankful for that.”
    +++++++++++++

    mistakes? forgetting the carry the 2 is a mistake.

    he lied. HE LIED.

    That’s huge. an enormous ethical breech. my agnostic and atheist relatives would not dream of lying (they’ve made that clear to me). “Because it’s wrong”, they said.

    leave it to professional christians to rationalize all that away when want what they want, when they have something to protect, something to hide.

    you lie, you lose your job, your family… no one can truly ever trust you again.

    he built his entire ministry on lies. for 40 years. privileges and doors of opportunity were opened to him because of a fraudulent academic background and false persona.

    he abused his power.

    he abused his power by initiating and brokering an NDA non-disclosure agreement because he had something to hide. he was bound to it as well as the other party. he entitled himself to the last word by breaking the NDA, lying about the other party through a false narrative, bringing harm to them.

    he is duplicitous, having preached about the importance of being ethical and avoiding hypocrisy. and look at his choices!

  59. elastigirl,

    He made many mistakes. He apparently has repented and turned away from those sinful things. Despite those sins God used him to teach truth. He’s dying. I don’t see the joy derived from continuing to call him names and throw accusations at him. Have some compassion. None of us are without sin.

  60. Sadly one can’t easily get supportive diagnosis if one is showing symptoms of mania. In religious people it is taken for enthusiasm. We each have to check our reactions to our background for aggravating factors. Ravi reportedly complicated the situation a couple of times and then probably stopped further complicating it. What kind of fruits he bore, he bore. Good ones are God’s anyway. God weighs us each on His own scale for us.

    Always when spiritual credence is given, there will be the specific interplay between fallacies, intuition and myriad other things, producing a strange result in us which is the starting point for whatever comes after. I got taken in by worse than Ravi and I’m mourning many others surviving (or not) grave situations ensuing.

  61. Godith:
    elastigirl,

    He made many mistakes. He apparently has repented and turned away from those sinful things. Despite those sins God used him to teach truth. He’s dying. I don’t see the joy derived from continuing to call him names and throw accusations at him. Have some compassion. None of us are without sin.

    Ravi made some mistakes but he will overwhelmingly be remembered as a good man. Seeing the outpouring of support he has received shows me how loved he was by the Christian community. He was even respected by many non christians.

    He was not perfect, but 100 years from now Christians will remember him.

  62. Godith,
    TK,

    “He’s dying. I don’t see the joy derived from continuing to call him names and throw accusations at him. Have some compassion. None of us are without sin.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    you are right in that a more compassionate approach is valid right now.

    however, i’m thinking of the person who was at the other end of his abusive power plays.

    who Ravi framed with lies and partial truths, distorting what happened. He made the other party look as bad as possible in order to make himself look good. After having silenced them so they couldn’t respond.

    He is reaping the rewards of the false academic persona he created over the years to gain credibility, and build on it.

    Should his enormous fan base read his false narrative, they will believe it unquestioningly, including the false representation of the other party in the worst possible light.

    honestly, my compassion lies more with the other party at the moment. i can’t imagine how unbearable that must be. with no real way to set the record straight (since he used his power to silence them; and takes that and the false narrative with him, forever consigning them to it).

    further, i’ve seen no real apology. it seems to me to be a clever whitewash, amazingly portraying him and his organization as heroic and taking the high road.

    (Mark DeMoss has much to answer for, providing professional services in Abuse of Power in the name of God for christian leaders.)

    finally, you say i am deriving joy from all this. how could you know what i’m feeling? now you’re framing me in the worst possible light.

    and for the record, i have never come close to doing anything remotely approaching this egregious level.

    neither have my agnostic and atheist relatives, nor hindu, moslem and buddhist friends. they all have made a point of truly choosing the high road (instead of pretending, in order to make themselves look good). who choose to tell the truth and not lie, even when it is at their expense.

    the irony is more than i can handle at the moment.

  63. elastigirl,

    I don’t agree it was “an abusive power play”. Ravi met Lori Thompson at a conference in Canada in October 2014, and she asked him to reach out to her husband to answer his questions about Christianity. That’s how Ravi got the email address. It was Bradley Thompson’s. Ravi met Bradley at another event in Canada and the Thompsons invited the Ravi & Margie out for dinner. Lori Thompson provided no evidence that Ravi solicited/ask for any pictures of her, nude or otherwise. (If you think she did, please provide some evidence. I missed it). I believe Ravi fell for an extortion attempt. He likely got involved emotionally somehow. I don’t think there’s even evidence for that. He wasn’t her pastor or her spiritual director. He held no sway over her.
    Take Lori Thompson’s side if you think you ought to. Your vehemence is a little over the top. A $5 million extortion attempt ought to be deplored by atheists and agnostics also.

  64. Godith: Your vehemence is a little over the top.

    You can see vehemence in a comment? She seems to be just stating where her empathy lies.

  65. Godith,

    thank you for responding. my views come from a ‘plain reading’, logical inferences, and looking at the greater context. but i’ve talked too much already.

    i’ve refrained from belittling your position out of respect for you, i would appreciate the same courtesy, instead of discrediting my thoughts as an unfounded overreaction.

    not vehement. i’m very disappointed. in evangelicalism, its culture and the citizens of that culture, and especially its leaders. you had mentioned compassion. i agreed, and wanted to show that the other party warrants compassion as well.

  66. Everyone please place yourselves in the same fitted shoes, no one knows the bondage, or psychological pain, that one may have been inflicted upon these men sometime or another, or whatever the case is, it could be you, or a son, daughter, father, friend…whomever…just Pray and those who are spiritual, pray for those who are weak in the faith, and stop repeating things, the bible said not to even repeat sinful things, but some of you could be guilty of the very same things…so don’t be so hastely, to waste their reputations, have some class or integrity..and just do what our heavenly Father ask us to do…and that is to Pray and lift them up…if you can. it is very sad but when you continue to degrade…you are even sadder. If most of you would have used your time of lifting these men up, it could have made a difference in their lives.

  67. Renee: the bible said not to even repeat sinful things, but some of you could be guilty of the very same things

    Sorry but I’m not. I’ve received no money or influence by lying on my resume, I’m faithful to my wife, and I live a very middle class life. We think that by not talking about it makes it go away or God will make it go away. I can’t make any judgement for the afterlife (if there is one) nor can I say how God feels one way or the other. He doesn’t speak to me.

    What I can say is that we can objectively discuss what is in the public sphere while acknowledging the tragic outcomes.

    This is what it means to discuss Christian trends.

  68. Jack: What I can say is that we can objectively discuss what is in the public sphere while acknowledging the tragic outcomes.

    There is a reason why some church traditions wait until well after a person is dead before declaring them as saints.

  69. Sarah M.,

    Sarah M , while I don’t like to be called out either. it was plain wrong to say Ist, read down and another person said it pained her when people did that on sexual abuse topics. I once told a joke at my wife’s expense and a friend called me out on it and he was right, it was wrong and I never did it again, I glad he made me aware of how disrespectful it was. No mention was made of his character just his act.

  70. Friend: Mr. Jesperson: I have seen a cell in hell reserved for those who think that they are Christians, but are not.

    Please stop. You are not helping anyone. This is not about your private revelations of Who Deserves Hell.

    I’m kinda curious if he saw Adolf Hitler.

    I’ve read some Christianese private revelations of Hell, and none of the descriptions resemble each other. The only constant is that AH is always a stop on the guided tour.

  71. Ken F (aka Tweed): There is a reason why some church traditions wait until well after a person is dead before declaring them as saints.

    Pro: Only after death is the story of their life complete.
    Con: They’re not around to “embarrass” the official version of their story.

  72. TK,

    While you paint a nice picture of Ravi in the Evangelical “bubble”, “Ravi” verges on a being a fraud in the Academic World. It is a BIG DEAL, or put another way, a great way to get booted out, when one LIES about their academic credentials. I personally sat in on one of his “lectures” at my state university, and he was introduced as if he had a legitimate Ph.D. I was shocked, and disgusted, when I learned otherwise, and I will NEVER officially attach my name to para church groups on campuses.. for many reasons, not the least of which is the deception I have seen conducted by these parachurch groups…

    I have read many times where “pious Christians” blow off my concern listed above.. that further shocks me, and proves to me many negative thoughts, not the least of which the “anti-intellectualism” of Evangelicals/Fundamentalist…

  73. Jeffrey Chalmers: I have read many times where “pious Christians” blow off my concern listed above.. that further shocks me, and proves to me many negative thoughts, not the least of which the “anti-intellectualism” of Evangelicals/Fundamentalist…

    But they would not blow off your concerns if the shoe was on the other foot – if an academic without valid religious credentials claimed to be an expert on Christianity.

  74. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    Of course!! We could go on and on about this, but I get tired of it…. I am convinced that some of the current political divisiveness is the result of anti-intellectual thinking of fundamentalist/evangelical…. I need to stop, or I will get “moderated”

    Oops. Too late. GBTC

  75. Jeffrey Chalmers,

    “I have read many times where “pious Christians” blow off my concern listed above.. that further shocks me”
    ++++++++++++

    what shocks me is how low christian culture’s standards are.

    in my experiences in various sectors of the businessworld, character matters.

    honesty, faithfulness, integrity matter. there are consequences for doing otherwise. this is expressly not the case in christian culture (mainly for its leaders, heroes, and celebrities.)

    as i’ve mentioned so many times (because it is so striking to me), in my relationships with agnostic, atheist, muslim, hindu and buddhist relatives/friends, their personal integrity standards, and how important they are to them, outshine what i experience and observe in fellow christians.

    it’s a double dose of shock when i observe (in memory of years past and in the present) the explicit and implicit message of christian culture of how christians are the elite human beings on earth. as if all others are dubious and dangerous goblins to steer clear of. to be pitied, of course — but to look down on as the inferior class of citizens.

    (this is, in fact, the implicit meaning of the terms “the world”, “of this world”)

  76. elastigirl: it’s a double dose of shock when i observe (in memory of years past and in the present) the explicit and implicit message of christian culture of how christians are the elite human beings on earth. as if all others are dubious and dangerous goblins to steer clear of. to be pitied, of course — but to look down on as the inferior class of citizens.
    (this is, in fact, the implicit meaning of the terms “the world”, “of this world”)

    Yup…. I was “trained” in this way of thinking 7-12th grade…. I was “warned” about all the immorality that I would be exposed to in my UC Berkeley dorm in 1981-1983. I clearly remember after a year there wondering, where is all this immorality I was suppose to exposed to?? Of course, if I had said that to the people that warned me, they would have rolled their eyes, and said I was already to far “gone”!

  77. Friend: Mr. Jesperson: I have seen a cell in hell reserved for those who think that they are Christians, but are not.

    Please stop. You are not helping anyone. This is not about your private revelations of Who Deserves Hell.

    Remember:
    This guy’s on record at this blog for defining “those who think they are Christians but are not” as those who Deny that God in His Wrath Sent COVID-19. Citing the same private revelations as his source. Fit the two together and…

  78. Jeffrey Chalmers: I was “warned” about all the immorality that I would be exposed to in my UC Berkeley dorm in 1981-1983. I clearly remember after a year there wondering, where is all this immorality I was suppose to exposed to??

    Well, “Berserkley” IS a weird place.

    As for Immorality(TM), the definition inside the Christianese Bubble is shall we say DIFFERENT. My type example is the definition of Pornography.

    Over 30+ years in Furry Fandom, I have been exposed to some real brain-bleach level “furotica”. Then I hear some preacher ranting on the radio or video about porn, citing Playboy centerfolds or Victoria’s Secret lingerie as type examples of Such Immoral Filth.

    My reaction is consistent: Yelling back at the radio or video “If you think THAT’s Hardcore Porn, You’ve NEVER seen the Real Thing! I HAVE!”

    Doesn’t do much for Christianese credibility. To paraphrase St Augustine, “If you talk nonsense about something I do know, why should I believe you when you speak about something I don’t?”

  79. Godith: Your vehemence is a little over the top.

    TONE POLICING!
    AKA Misdirection; force the other onto the defensive; get everyone arguing jot-and-tittle over some trivial side point until everyone forgets the main problem.

  80. elastigirl: it’s a double dose of shock when i observe (in memory of years past and in the present) the explicit and implicit message of christian culture of how christians are the elite human beings on earth.

    The Saved, the Righteous, the Chosen, God’s Special Pets.
    Watching us all burn in Hell from their thrones of RIGHTeousness.

  81. Friend,

    The Lord expect us to serve him with all our HEARTS..Dignity…Loyal Yo Him..Passion…I have no judgement for this people…ALL in the HANDS of our ALMIGHTY GOD!

  82. Our leader Jesus Christ loves and forgives. Jesus never sinned but we murdered him. Jesus said the “meek will inherit the earth”. Heaven the new earth.

    Ravi and his family are the victims. Ravi is in heaven today.

  83. drstevej,

    I have nothing but questions lately. I go target shooting but I don’t go in order to take my life, I shoot at TARGETS. There something very peculiar about this story. I can imagine it happening like this: “look at that grouping!”, Darrin says to his friend, “now I think I’ll take my life.” Just doesn’t add up