Ann Dunwoody became the first female four-star general in the United States Army in 2008.
“Courage is found in unlikely places.” – J. R. R. Tolkien
Since Todd wrote an excellent post on Cedarville U and Lt. General Reno, I decided to link to it here instead of writing another post until new information becomes available.
I am not the brightest bulb on the block. However, I am smart enough to know when I’m gonna cause a hubbub. Unfortunately, Senior Chaplain Col. Moon H. Kim, the command chaplain of U.S. Army Garrison Humphreys in South Korea, wasn’t clued into John Piper’s rather less than spectacular theology.
Suppose I was the Senior Army Chaplain who was considering sending out a book about the Coronavirus and faith to the chaplains who were junior to me. What would I consider BEFORE choosing and sending out such a book?
The chaplaincy is made up of ordained clergy of multiple faiths.
Did you know that Chaplain Corps of the US Army is not made up of evangelical or conservative Christians? According to Wikipedia:
The Chaplain Corps of the United States Army consists of ordained clergy of multiple faiths who are commissioned Army officers serving as military chaplains as well as enlisted soldiers who serve as assistants. Their purpose is to offer religious church services, counseling, and moral support to the armed forces, whether in peacetime or at war.
Then, I might consider the actual makeup of the Army:
- men and women
- most personnel are physically fit (meaning muscles, etc.)
- LGB have served openly since 2011
- women can serve in combat, on fighter jets and on submarines
- women serve in positions of authority over men, including as generals
I would assume that anyone in the Army would be aware of these things, including army chaplains. So what happened?
A senior army chaplain sent John Piper’s ebook *Coronavirus and Christ’ to all of the Army chaplains.
The Christian Post reported Army Chaplain under fire for sharing John Piper’s book ‘Coronavirus and Christ’ Here is a link to the book on Amazon.
Twenty-two military chaplains are calling on a senior army chaplain to be disciplined and possibly court-martialed for sending nearly three-dozen other chaplains an email containing a copy of John Piper’s new e-book, Coronavirus and Christ.
Oddly enough, there are also evangelical and conservative Christian who do not agree with the way Piper conveys his message. I am one of those and there are many reasons. But, for this post, I will stick to the subject at hand.
What does Piper think about relevant subjects?
Piper believes that women should not be muscular.
This is a problem for women in the Army who are wonderful example of physical fitness. I wrote about Piper’s odd views here: John Piper: On Election, Sin and the Painful Lives of Muscular Women.
Here is what I quoted by Piper which written in ‘Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood,” a bizarre book that everyone should read since hardcore Calvinistas give it out like candy at Halloween. Here is a link to the free PDF.
“Consider what is lost when women attempt to assume a more masculine role by appearing physically muscular and aggressive. It is true that there is something sexually stimulating about a muscular, scantily clad young woman pumping iron in a health club.
But no woman should be encouraged by this fact. For it probably means the sexual encounter that such an image would lead to is something very hasty and volatile, and in the long run unsatisfying.
The image of a masculine musculature may beget arousal in a man, but it does not beget several hours of moonlight walking with significant, caring conversation. The more women can arouse men by doing typically masculine things, the less they can count on receiving from men a sensitivity to typically feminine ”
Piper does not believe that women should be in combat.
In today’s army, women and men enter combat. Here is a link to his post: The Folly of Men Arming Women for Combat. In speaking about President Obama, he said:
For thousands of years of military wisdom and noble instincts that reasoning would have been unintelligible. Of course, there are women of valor. But for a male commander-in-chief to say that since they are willing to die in combat, therefore we should arm them for it, is a non-sequitur, and a shame on the president’s manhood.
Piper does not believe that women should be police officers which relates to roles in the Armed Services.
In John Piper Thinking Women Probably Shouldn’t Be Police Officers Further Reveals the Flaws of His Gender Theology, he makes some odd comments pointed out by Relevant Magazine.
If a woman’s job involves a good deal of directives toward men, they will need to be non-personal in general. If they don’t, men and women won’t flourish in the long run in that relationship without compromising profound biblical and psychological issues.
Conversely, if a woman’s relationship to a man is very personal, then the way she offers guidance and influence will need to be more non-directive. My own view is that there are some roles in society that will strain godly manhood and womanhood to the breaking point. But I leave women and men in those roles to sort that out. I have never tried to make that list.
John Piper does not believe that women should be drill sergeants.
Reformation 21 posted John Piper’s Advice For Women in the Workforce:
On the other hand, some influence is very directive and some is non-directive. For example, a drill sergeant might epitomize directive influence over the privates in the platoon. And it would be hard for me to see how a woman could be a drill sergeant — hut two, right face, left face, keep your mouth shut, private — over men without violating their sense of manhood and her sense of womanhood.
What does this book have to say that the other chaplains might find upsetting?
It strikes me as unnecessarily provocative to send out Piper’s thinking on the coronavirus as a punishment or certain sins to a diverse group of chaplains who represent all the major faiths as well as progressive elements within the Christian faith. Senior Chaplain Kim would obviously be aware of this fact. So why would he send out a book that claims (from tThe Christian Post):
- some people will be infected with the coronavirus as a specific judgment from God because of their sinful attitudes and actions.
- the coronavirus may be a specific judgement from God for specific sins.
- In Chapter 7 in a section titled “Examples of Specific Judgements on Specific Sins,” Piper wrote that one example “is the sin of homosexual intercourse.”
The Washington Examiner also covered this story in Army chaplain facing scrutiny for sharing evangelical Coronavirus and Christ book. Piper wrote:
Calamities are God’s previews of what sin deserves and will one day receive in judgment a thousand times worse,” wrote Piper. “They are warnings. They are wake-up calls to see the moral horror and spiritual ugliness of sin against God.”
I believe that Kim has the right to believe everything in Piper’s book. However, in his position, he must walk the line of representing all of the chaplains. A current chaplain who complained had this to say about the issue:
- about 80% or more of the U.S. military chaplaincy subscribes to Calvinistic, conservative Christian theology.
- he has met Kim in the past and has never had any problems with him.
- chaplains are entitled to their views, they need to be careful “not to put forth a view that whatever their religious background is is the established or preferred one.”
A group of chaplains are asking that Kim be disciplined for distributing this books. They are getting help from the Military Religious Freedom Forum. Did Kim have the right to send this book out to his subordinates? Mike Berry says he did.
Mike Berry, general counsel for the First Liberty Institute, an organization that defends the First Amendment rights of military members, told CP that Kim was within his rights to send the email.
…The MRFF is not only going overboard, it is showing its true colors by asking the Pentagon to punish a chaplain for engaging in constitutionally protected activity,” Berry said. “Congress has recently and repeatedly taken actions to protect chaplains to share their religious beliefs.”
…Our brave service members should be offended that Mikey Weinstein thinks they are so delicate and frail that they are incapable of hearing something with which they might disagree. Quite the contrary, the vast majority of service members with whom I served, whether senior or subordinate, were smart enough to decide for themselves.”
So, Piper doesn’t think women should be in combat, be drill sergeants and be muscular. This is the author that Kim chose to send his fellow chaplains? My hope is that Kim didn’t understand John Piper’s view on these issues. If he did, then maybe he needs some training in how to win friends and influence people…
1BAM
How true is this? It seems rather high, unless Weinstein is conflating conservative and Calvinist.
Your link at the beginning of this post takes you to an article about Cedarville & Reno. Is this the one you intended?
So, the coronavirus mortality rate is highest in persons in their 80s. In Minnesota the vast majority of the coronavirus deaths involve residents of long term care facilities. Given these things, how is it John Pjper concludes the coronavirus is God’s judgment for sins, particularly homosexual sins?
This is an odd post that advocates a strange censorship. Where is the harm in sharing an e-book? No one is forced to read it, no one is being told to adhere to its teaching. Should I not share a bible verse with a friend in case they take offence? Should I not drop a gospel tract through my neighbours door in case they take offence?
I don’t agree with Piper and wouldn’t set out to purchase any of his books, but I wouldn’t take offence or seek to make a complaint if someone sent me an email recommending an article or book of his.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Agreed. My husband used to be military, Granted, we didn’t see the entire military, but we didn’t run into any conservative or Calvinist chaplains.
Sarah M.,
To be fair to Piper, and I’m not a Piper fan, he says that some who receive the virus, not all who receive the virus, will get it for specific sins.
He sent the book, not a recommendation to read a book. I would object to it if he used military funds to buy all those books. It’s a cheap book, but not free.
Andy,
Indeed. Unless he was sending the book with the claim that it represented the official position of the chaplain corps, he’s done nothing wrong. Perhaps it wasn’t the wisest move, but censorship isn’t the right move either.
In other news, I can’t really think of anything to write today.
I never knew Jesus had coronavirus.
And this is before one notices that Piper has got the meaning of the pandemic completely wrong anyway.
If one is determined to see Divine intent behind the pandemic, a far likelier candidate, IMO, is that it’s God’s reminder of the truth of James 4:13-16.
But that’s not a message that will resonate with the people on whose contributions the megachurches depend. And criticism of proud boasting cuts a bit close to the bone, too.
ishy,
The Ebook is free do download.
https://www.desiringgod.org/books/coronavirus-and-christ
How does this post advocate for censorship? I did not see that in the post.
No, you’re right. Pastors like Piper are always eager to tell the peons how to live, but they don’t ever seem to use the Bible to see their own shortcomings or the shortcomings of their pastor friends. And many of them have appointed themselves authorities without any valid reason to do so (and imho, any valid biblical reason for absolute human spiritual authority at all).
Samuel Conner,
I agree that this virus, as any tragedy or disruption in our lives should bring us back to this scripture. Interestingly, Dr. Thomas White preached on this passage the day he announced that Cedarville would close due to Co-Vid. Another friendly reminder that we are all filled with “mixture.”
The stars a general wears have five points. Clearly a Calvinist emblem.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQNXJOxhXenfEIuqxlOxEd_x5hU4xh3mXFAiACHTMxy2ecoFWXO&usqp=CAU
The bummer is … the flurry of attention that Piper’s new book is receiving will increase book sales. At less than $10 and only 100 pages, the curious – with pandemic time on their hands – will buy it and be exposed to the weird little man and his strange views. New Calvinism will benefit from additional proselytes to their aberrant theology. The book is already rated on Amazon as the #1 New Release in Christian Counseling. Piper is an amazing phenomenon in Christendom.
“Beware of Alexander the coppersmith – he has done us much harm”
That never stopped Piper.
A tweet by Piper this week: “O for complete candor and sincerity and simplicity, with no spin and no forked tongue, no winking of the eye.”
No spin? No forked tongue? This guy actually believes what he teaches – scary!
Some of them are 4-Pointers, 3-Pointers, etc. (Piper is a 7-Point Calvinist!)
The post states that this was a chaplain not Weinstein who made this statement.
Moon Kim is command chaplain for Camp Humphreys in South Korea, a very large US base outside the US.
I will note the book wasn’t sent to all army chaplains but apparently was sent to more than a few chaplains under his command (but possibly not any rabbis or other non-Christian chaplains under his command [if there are any]). When a commanding officer sends a book and includes the message
that seems a rather strong recommendation.
Because The Pious Piper has PERFECT Theology, two points beyond even Calvin.
Yet more zero-calorie, zero-nutrient Word Salad.
Guy’s really, deeply, madly in Love with the sound of his own words.
Piper better pray that he doesn’t end up in a military hospital someday with a female non-Calvinist chaplain, who has rank and muscle. 🙂
Which reminds me of a true story. I had a work colleague once who had been a university chemistry professor. When he went in for minor surgery once, the anesthesiologist said to him “Hi Doc, remember me? I was in your Organic Chemistry class!” My colleague said that the last thing he remembered thinking as the anaesthesia was being administered was “I wonder what grade I gave him.”
I guess that’s why he chuckles when he speaks.
I suppose God didn’t trust Calvin with a revelation of points 6 & 7 … and had to wait until Piper came along.
Robert,
It was downright stupid. I suspect if might have been a way to push Piper’s controversial views.. Piper is out of line when it comes to women and the Army is made up of many, many women.
And how does he know that? r is he allowed to say that because he is just Piper.
Or maybe he chuckles when he speaks because he has magic underwear?
(P.S. HUG, please don’t respond “Oh Max, you crack me up!)
Actually, I would say tha , if the neighbor takes offense, it was unwise to do so. Think of another way to reach that neighbor. What is the goal here? To share one’s thoughts and beliefs with the hope yhis presentation would be considered or to irritate people who will no longer listen to him?
I believe Piper’s views on things are offensive, especially to women in the Army. Try someone else like NT Wright.
Seriously? I share my faith often. I put myself out on social media. My hope is that my presentation would be such that it would attract people as opposed to upsetting people.
I don’t advocate censorship. I merely disagree that his approach was stupid.
As has already been noted, it’s a different animal for a senior officer in military command to give out and “recommend” materials to subordinates. These materials would (rightly) be subject to a higher level of scrutiny and a higher bar of acceptability. I’m quite certain, for example, that a general who gave out communist materials for serious consideration to his subordinates might receive some pushback from the military . .
Sarah M.,
Piper often claims lots of things happen in order to punish people. It’s his claim to fame.he really thinks he is directly aware of God’s actions. Is it not possible that the coronavirus was merely the pain and suffering that occurs in a fallen world? I think Piper likes to think he knows what God is thinking.
GreekEpigraph,
Well said. Wish I had said it!
Max,
🙂
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Best laugh of the morning.
Eventually, a person will read this and think like this. “So, if God wanted to punish homosexuals, why did he create a pandemic that caused my faithful grandmother to die. “
I hadn’t noticed that….
I’m looking for official data, but it appears that US military chaplains come from some 200 different Christian and non-Christian traditions. In 2014, the Gospel Coaliation gave this breakdown, based on a spreadsheet compiled by military atheists in 2010 (strange bedfellows for sure):
“The denominations with the largest representation (more than 100, both active and reserve) are: Southern Baptist Convention (787), Roman Catholic Church (350), United Methodist Church (274), Evangelical Church Alliance (174), General Council of Assemblies of God (153), Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (149), and Evangelical Lutheran Church In America (128)
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/9-things-you-should-know-about-military-chaplains/
I wished I had noticed this. It is inappropriate for this man’s position. As for the reaction of those junior to him…Does he not understand them? Didn’t he think this would occur?
Robert,
As a superior to some of these people it could be construed as more than a suggestion.
Nick Bulbeck,
Hello, Nick. Good to here from you. How goes life in your pary of the world?
In my experience, most military chaplains do try to meet people where they are. They figure this out by asking and observing, and by not trumpeting the details of their own personal beliefs.
Military installations have chapels, and installations’ websites have pages for chaplains to announce activities, post inspiring material, etc. When the lines are clear, all troops receive the spiritual support they desire… which might be a lot, or none. The basic flavors of Christianity are Catholic and Protestant. Fun fact: under regulations, Catholics get more time for military chapel funerals, because the funeral mass includes Communion.
Do you have any idea how devastating that thought might be to a 92-year-old Christian widow, isolated in a nursing home, struggling to recover from covid-19? Exactly how is she supposed to assure herself that she did not bring the disease on herself by some long-ago sin?
Mercy.
Erp,
That’s my thinking as well.
Kind of like the “Senior” pastor making a suggestion to a church member. Church member dies not adhere to Padtor’s suggestion. Pastor shuns church member . . .
Exactly! Who gives Piper the right to play God? I’m so sick of his pronouncements about why people might be dying.
dee,
Sadly, Piper might call that collateral damage. But, then, why can’t Piper’s Sovereign God only kill the targeted group? There is no justification for Piper’s nonsense.
“Senior Chaplain Col. Moon H. Kim”
An Army full colonel is officer grade 6. The vast majority of Army chaplains are captains, officer grade 3. Chaplain colonels have a great deal of influence over subordinate officers. (All military chaplains hold officer rank, and all are noncombatants.)
“The more women can arouse men by doing typically masculine things, the less they can count on receiving from men a sensitivity to typically feminine ”
+++++++++++++
typically feminine…
i just love it when a man who is the antithesis of typically masculine informs us that all women who are not typically feminine are disqualified.
combined with the concept of God, i guess it is somehow sinful for a girl and a woman to be anything other than a maiden with a dainty body in a dress, who glides with flourishes, and whose whole point is to be intellectually and physically incapable so that a man gets to rescue her.
in the end, the odds are that in an emergency john piper would end up being rescued by a woman anyway.
Robert,
“To be fair to Piper, and I’m not a Piper fan, he says that some who receive the virus, not all who receive the virus, will get it for specific sins.”
++++++++++++++
what a relief!
😐
If you liked that quote from Piper you will really love this article published by Flounders today:
https://founders.org/2018/08/06/sexual-sin-kills-embrace-your-wife/
“If a woman’s job involves a good deal of directives toward men, they will need to be non-personal in general.
If they don’t, men and women won’t flourish in the long run in that relationship without compromising profound biblical and psychological issues.
Conversely, if a woman’s relationship to a man is very personal, then the way she offers guidance and influence will need to be more non-directive.
My own view is that there are some roles in society that will strain godly manhood and womanhood to the breaking point.
But I leave women and men in those roles to sort that out. I have never tried to make that list.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++
i just love it when a christian-with-influence make God-sized threats of ‘biblical’ proportions, and then pretend they would never do any such thing.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Love it!
“The wife is not merely a paper cup to be used and discarded. She is the well-water system.”
That’s such a huge turn-on, I have to throw my husband down on the kitchen floor right now! Or maybe I got that backwards…
Ha! Or maybe he could be consistent with his beliefs and refuse rescue from a female…
Ken F (aka Tweed),
yeah….:|
i think i’ll make jared longshore halloween costumes and sell them. Should i put these in the scary costumes aisle or the funny costumes aisle?
“My hope is that Kim didn’t understand John Piper’s view on these issues. If he did, then maybe he needs some training in how to win friends and influence people…”
++++++++++++++
judging by truly-nice-guy pastors who recommend these things, my conclusion is that they’ve put their faith in john piper.
and by faith they believe they can win friends and influence people by letting them know God hates them. hates them for being anything other than the cookie-cutter stereotype that is the only right one.
crazy town has come to this silly religion of mine.
i am no fan of Mr. Piper. However, this Chaplin has every right to send out material to who ever she chooses. Is it wise to send this out? Probably not. This is a free country and she should not face any repercussions. Those who received this book are free to toss it in the garbage, which is what I would have done. My guess is that army chaplains share material amongst themselves on a regular basis. We need to stop being so easily offended. Should we discuss and call attention to the the serious concerns regarding Mr. Pipers theology. Yes! Should we shut down those who promote his books. No!
Piper isn’t worth the pixels. He’s wrong about so much, it’s not even possible to list. Wrong on who God is, wrong on salvation, wrong on loving they neighbor. His “popularity” is a symptom of the rancid state of the church in America.
Yep, when folks like Piper, Mohler, Dever, Driscoll, MacDonald, etc., etc. rise to popularity status with a great multitude of followers, it’s a sure sign of the tainted condition of the organized church. In a sewer, all the big chunks float to the top. We need a spiritual awakening in America, but I have a feeling that we will get a rude awakening first.
He is allowed to say anything he wants to because he is not accountable to anyone. However, he won’t escape the judgment to come for leading so many astray with Piper Points, rather than preaching the Gospel. “Woe unto me if I preach not the Gospel”, Paul said. Piper’s brand of Calvinism is NOT the Gospel for ALL people. What love is this?
Is there a category for maliciously and dangerously clueless?
Friend,
When something bad happens to you, I think you should neither take the side of Job’s friends and insist that it might be due to your sin nor should you take the position of modern Westerners that it can’t possibly be due to your sin. You can’t be certain either way.
dee,
He doesn’t know that, so teaching it as a fact is wrong. But it would also be wrong to teach as a fact that it can’t possibly due to one’s sin. Apart from special revelation, we don’t know either way.
If Piper were to have just said, “These are the reasons the Bible gives for why bad things might happen” it would be better. Leave it open for people decide on their own which, if any, apply to them. The only thing we can be sure of is that the virus is a consequence of life in a fallen world. Whether it is more than that in any specific case, we can’t know.
dee,
But isn’t there a fine line here? Paul does say that the gospel is offensive. We can be unnecessarily offensive or bring offense not related to the gospel, but we can also avoid saying hard but true things simply because we fear being offensive.
If I understand this right, the chaplain used my taxpayer funds to purchase Piper’s book that could have been downloaded for free? I wonder if this chaplain was intentionally using taxpayer funds to support Piper?
Ken F (aka Tweed),
“Is there a category for maliciously and dangerously clueless?”
++++++++++++++++
yes… but i’m sure we’d get into politics if we discussed further.
As long as folks are making completely unfounded claims, I’m gonna say that some people are dying from coronavirus because they put ketchup on steak (let’s face it, that’s a heck of a lot more problematic than being gay). And some people are facing the consequences of not properly practicing the zipper merge when there’s highway construction.
Also, did anybody else hear a record scratch at the line, “The image of a masculine musculature may beget arousal in a man,…”? Wait, what? I read something like that, and it occurs to me that maybe John is having some struggles. I mean, I look at a jacked dude and think, “Dang, that guy has put a lot of work and discipline into looking that way.” – but there’s no arousal being begetted (if there were, it’d be okay – but I’m pretty sure in John’s worldview it’s not so okay).
Maybe, but the article doesn’t say this. It says that “Kim sent out an email using his official military email address to 35 other chaplains … containing an ‘unsolicited’ PDF copy of Piper’s new e-book Coronavirus and Christ.”
The concern, raised entirely by Christian military chaplains, is that this colonel chaplain violated EEO and DoD regulations.
Consider the Covid-19 outbreak aboard the Theodore Roosevelt. Is Piper saying those sick and dying sailors are punished for their sins? Is that what Chaplain Kim believes?
The military has to keep some details of outbreaks quiet, so enemies do not know specifics about US vulnerabilities. Chaplain Kim is using his rank to push an inflammatory message at people who were already worried and upset, and who cannot freely speak.
Agree. And women in the Army include female chaplains (who serve in all military branches). I’m sure it’s challenging enough without the possibility of becoming a subordinate chaplain to a Colonel who endorses Piper on anything.
For those who are wondering why atheists might collect the data, it is because the makeup of the chaplaincy does not reflect the makeup of the military and certain groups are not represented at all. The Humanist Society has been trying to become an endorser for military chaplains for some time (Humanist chaplains already exist in other contexts).
Andy,
Of course, you wouldn’t. You are a man. John Piper is misogynistic. He giggles about wife abuse. This misogynistic selfish Chaplain is promoting and advocating misogyny. Would you have a problem if someone in the military was peddling a book that said conservative Christian men should not be allowed around third world little girls?
This is not an example of censorship.
Actually, he does not have an unfettered right to send out whatever material he chooses. To “whoever”? How much official email do you personally want to receive from the thousands of military chaplains in the DoD? Would that be a good use of your taxes?
Do you think military chaplains should be allowed to circulate, say, photographs of unclad individuals? Encouragement to set alight government buildings? Endorsements of slavery? Official orders to buy their wives’ excellent pies?
Even within the bounds of religious literature, chaplains have to follow specific rules. So no, the Catholic chaplains can’t send around an email saying that Protestants are going to burn for all eternity.
Chaplains take an oath to protect and defend the U.S. Constitution.
You wouldn’t want it any other way, trust me.
I wonder if LonghornFan, Robert, and Andy think it would be okay for an authority in the US Military to promote Lolita or Fifty Shades of Grey.
Lolita is very bad for little girls.
Fifty Shades of Gray is very bad for women.
John Piper’s garbage is very bad for women and for little girls.
Would you be cool with a chaplain peddling The God Delusion?
Piper is correctly interpreting the biblical view on punishment. I think the thread is missing the doctrinal distinction of Common Misery, and Specific Misery.
But it’s always wise to remember these two Heads of Doctrine are best pronounced with a strong accent, if the true essence of the mystery of the Miseries are to be grasped.
Says who?
Ditto.
There’s some history here and the answer is *no*, they would not and they would be screaming about it online.
What is the goal here? To get people to think about your point of view or to miff them off?
You greatly misunderstood the laws and regulations placed on military members. But even beyond the military, nearly every large organizations has standards of behavior for employees operating on company time and representing the company. Even churches have standards on acceptable expression when representing their church. This is not even close to a free speech issue.
Chaplain Kim or Pied Piper supporters?
dee,
Military chaplains also have no authority over troops’ marriages… unlike Piperite pastors.
Adultery, called extramarital sexual contact, is punishable under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. A wronged spouse can seek disciplinary recourse through the military member’s commander, but not through the chaplain. The adulterer can then be officially punished, because infidelity can pose a security threat, and it affects morale, order and discipline.
(Exception: Chaplains do have command authority over their assistants and subordinate chaplains, thus would have a role in UCMJ cases.)
Speaking of David Hunt’s book, Piper’s most recent article is about those horribly misguided Arminians:
https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/is-the-calvinist-arminian-debate-really-important
dee,
Whoops, I keep forgetting. It is the goal of some Calvinistas to miff off people who actually believe. that we should share our relationship with God by emphasizing how much God is really angry ar all of us. A God of wrath and anger who is coming to get all of you is the typical view of the Calvinistas.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Of course it is. The leader of the angry Calvinistas knows just how unregenerate and dangerous we really are.
I am not making unfounded claims. I documented my thoughts with links. You are not attempting to make your thoughts attractive to others. I know exactly what Calvinistas believe. I suggest that you take it down a notch.
Max,
It is the Calvinistas revving up for war.
I’m glad to hear this.
I learned something new.
Piper loves being offensive for the mere fact of being offensive.
They are on the wrong side in a wrong war.
dee,
Says Piper.
Some are getting punished with a general misery, and some are specificly miserable.
Thanks for the clarification.
Nathan Priddis,
says you, too, apparently.
(unless you “misspoke”, of course)
Well, that settles it. PBUH. (So much for sola scriptura)
I wasn’t indicating that you were making unfounded claims. I was referring to Piper’s claims that coronavirus infections were caused by sins or whatever. I’m pretty sure we’re in agreement, at least on Piper.
Censorship in the miltary is part of the chain of command. The miltary may protect our democracy-but is not democratic as an institution-it is a rigid hierarchy that has its own set of rules for official and personal conduct while within its ranks.
dee,
But Dee, apart from a God of wrath, there’s no point to the gospel. If God is not angry at sinners, then there’s no point to being a Christian.
One comment by Robert not approved. Stop with calling someone’s thoughts as *utter nonsense.*
Dee, I think that Richard’s comment was aimed at Piper, rather than at you. He seemed to be making fun of those who claim to know whether God is punishing people, or for what.
Nathan Priddis,
You have no idea which is which. No one does but many people believe that piper has some sort of special insight.
To make matters worse, there are other categories which Piper and his dudebros have overlooked. T
Whoops. Richard got there before me.
dee,
I’m not so sure about that. Look at how many comments he’s making? He’s here for a purpose.
Doubtful,
Yep! The Armed Services are not a democracy but are there to protect democracy.
elastigirl,
🙂
The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived. They are under the spell of the Pied Piper.
I think I’m going to have a new rule for Calvinists. They must tell me what kind of Calvinist they are. There are two main types.
1. The New Calvinists: They are represented by The Gospel Coalition, Acts 29, the Founders, etc.They love John Piper and the typical big boys.Some secretly still love CJ Mahaney. Many of them are Reformed Baptists, PCA, EFC, etc. They love discussing the TULIP. They spend a bunch of time deciding who is and isn’t regenerate. Most everyone is unregenerate except for them.
2. The Reformed. These folks do not believe that anyone who is a Baptist can be Reformed. They think John Piper is nuts and are quite suspicious of the celebrity status of many of the mega church Reformed Baptist pastors. They spend most of their time sniffing out heretics within their own circles and conduct heresy trials which are closely followed and discussed. They were shocked when I discovered Iain Campbell’s history and insisted that his legacy be no legacy whatsoever. They tried to figure out how I got all the insider info. They never found out and will never find out. These group is easier to understand than the other group. Usually they ignore us unless we muddle in their affairs.
You’ve been in your circles far to long, reading too much of Piper. or one of the other dudebros. This is exactly the place where Calvinistas lose out. Yes, there is something marvelous and far beyond wrath and I will leave you to figure that out. Think. It is why a nonChristian teenage girl, raised in a nonChristian family in the Boston area, came to know Him.
Nick Bulbeck,
Good seein’ ya’ back Nick.
Not to be confused with “The Chuckling One”, that’s Mahaney.
Piper is an authoritarian, NT Wright is not.
So from that standpoint, and given that the head honcho chaplain lives and swims in super-saturated authoritarianism, the choice would make sense.
I think Robert spends a lot of time with a concordance and a magic marker, crossing out all the Bible verses about God’s love and mercy.
Some of us really don’t want to spend all eternity with the wrathful god of Robert’s theology. I’d rather worship a loving God.
And they (the great generic fundagelical ‘they’) have a place for all us dissenters, misfits, outsider people and heretics.
It’s called hell.
Isn’t it funny how guys like Piper never seem to consider that if God is angry, it might be with them? With what they are teaching? With how they might be misrepresenting him? With sin and crime they are covering up? The times they’ve screwed people over to get ahead? No, it’s always the other guy God is angry at, those people that aren’t like “them”.
I can’t tell, is this sarcasm? Or are you serious?
Sarah M.,
Who knows where Piper’s crazy ideas come from? That quote of his about how muscular women are a turn-on who will inevitably find themselves in “volatile” sexual encounters, ought to be enough to convince anyone that this is one weird little man. Who ought not to be making pronouncements about God’s intentions to anyone.
The fact that he is a buddy and partner of “sensible” Christians like Tim Keller makes me question whether there is any psychological health or sound judgement anywhere in the evangelical world, and why I had to leave it as a young man, leave all my college friends and marriage prospects behind, etc.
I may go to hell for this decision, but I won’t have lost my sound judgement and embraced the warped thinking of Piper, et al, just because it’s “Christian”. I have to bring Piper’s height into this because his insecurity toward women is so obviously driving his resentment of women with any sort of authority. Who resents getting pulled over because the cop happens to be a woman? Who (apparently) lusts after muscular young women sweating thru their gym workout? BECAUSE they look masculine, mind you? John Piper. Yet it takes the likes of a JD Hall, professional jackass, to point out (correctly) to Christians that Piper is “weird, and a little bit fruity”.
Imagine if Piper had any worldly power at all, like his idol Calvin, what sort of petty and twisted Inquisition would ensue at the hands of this weirdly insecure, and dangerously grandiose, little man.
dee,
Your last sentence is an understatement of Biblical proportions. It has never occurred to the John Pipers of the world that there could be one razor blade’s worth of difference between their thoughts and God’s thoughts.
Give someone like Piper any real power and you get a theocratic nightmare, such as occurred under his idol Calvin. I mean if you KNOW who God wants to punish and why, why not go ahead and become His instrument of “justice”?
Our Founding Fathers knew all about this from the previous 500 years of European history. Thanks to our Constitution, Piper’s damage is limited to bloviating about God’s judgements, rather than having the power to realize them.
He wrath appeasement/satisfaction motif makes God the one who repents.
ishy,
It was a free ebook (available here https://www.crossway.org/articles/coronavirus-and-christ-by-john-piper/)
No military funds were used, my guess is that the motive of the chaplain was to provide a gospel resource that might be helpful to some in understanding the pandemic.
The passage that proves your point is this one, slightly paraphrased:
“It is not those who are innocent who need a lawyer, but those who are guilty. But go and learn what this means: ‘I require sacrifice, and not compassion.’”
You do not understand how the military works. No one is calling for censorship. We are calling for decency, respect, and sound judgment. While we all have the right to remain silent, many people lack the ability.
His rank is clearly problematic in sharing this, I agree. Did he send it with expectations to send it to others? Will he follow up on those expectations? Will he use his rank to punish those who don’t use the book or its theology?
I’ve been in Piper fan churches. There are ALWAYS expectations and repercussions for not falling in line with those expectations. I mean, they don’t even hide that a little. That’s why Acts 29 exists.
dee,
Dee, what were you saved from?
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Nope. No satisfaction/substitution, no justice for the victims that this blog rightly highlights.
SiteSeer,
No, I’m serious. If God is not angry at sinners, then there’s no point to Christ’s sacrifice. There’s no great love of God for sinners. There’s no mercy of God toward sinners.
If God is not angry at sinners, he’s just a big cuddly grandpa. Just be nice and everything will be great for you. And you don’t need to follow Jesus to be nice. Follow Buddha, Mohammed, whoever.
ishy,
Unfortunately, Fundamentalist/evangelicals are very susceptible to “group think”, and “buying in” on the latest “spiritual fad”. If you don’t, you “looked down upon”. I have experienced many of these over the years, for example: Billy Graham crusades, Institute of Basic life Principles (Bill Gothard), Promise Keepers, Purpose Driven Life, extra..
Jeffrey Chalmers,
It’s not just fundamentalists and evangelicals. It’s a human thing. It’s very easy to gather and stir up a crowd.
I met a lot of military chaplains in the 6 years I served; since most of that time was working in critical care medicine there was a lot of off hours visits and interaction with them outside the base chapel. I met 2 chaplains (3 different bases) that I would consider evangelical in outlook. This was in the years 1977-83. Military chaplaincy (sp) is highly political; I am somewhat surprised that someone with Col. Kim’s views made O-6 rank. The evangelical chaplains I knew didn’t make it past O-4 (major) and O-3 (captain). One was riffed (didn’t make rank in time to save his career) and finished his service as an enlisted man.
I am not a Piper fan; someone would do the Kingdom a great favor if they took away his twitter account and I think his views on COVID-19 are exploitative and insensitive at best, as well as not looking like the views that someone who knows Jesus well would take–my personal opinion. One of the responsibilities of those who have rank is to not use that rank in an improper way; I think the term is doing something under the color of rank. If he had communicated to his subordinate chaplains that Piper has some interesting thoughts in this area if they were interested in reading them rather than sending them the book he would probably be OK. Sending them the book under the color of his rank would imply some pressure to read, and perhaps, conform to those views. I think that would be inappropriate. I am not a fan of Mikey Weinstein and his group and in no way would support punishing Col. Kim for this other than having him write a clarification and apology regarding the way he introduced the book to his subordinates. Col. Kim’s career is over; I do not have enough information about him to know whether to mourn that loss or not, only those close to him do. The military, at the officer level, is a pretty unforgiving system.
Folks, this is what Hyper-Calvinism does to one’s mind after a while.
For clarification, the two evangelical chaplains I knew felt they had to keep a low profile in terms of their zeal for Jesus. Being seen as too conservative in theology was perceived to be a career killer since the upper levels of the chaplain ranks were dominated by those we would label as having liberal theological views.
And various flavors in between. Within SBC life, the “Founders” would fall in the Reformed, classical “Old” Calvinist category for the most part. While they may not agree with the message and method of the Calvinistas, they have been putting up with them since they are on a common mission … to Calvinize a once-great evangelistic denomination with millions of non-Calvinist members.
They want SBC’s stuff and have largely accomplished that endeavor – SBC seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, and a growing number of once-traditional churches are now under their control.
I REALLY hope to God that it is sarcasm. It’s too early to add baileys to my coffee.
But I think he is serious. This is what happens in their echo-chamber. They can’t engage others honestly, they can’t think critically outside their own bounds, and they have become hard earth for the seed of the Word.
If we take the passage you listed James ch. 4
V16 all boasting is evil, if that is part of your bigger point, that no one should be boasting, because boasting is evil
In Mathew in the Lord’s Prayer, the prayer says and deliver us from evil…..
So if God doesn’t / hadn’t yet delivered us from this particular evil, are we left with the possibility that this could be a judgment?.
I’m not saying it is a judgement, but we haven’t been delivered from this particular evil..
God’s timing is also not our timing. Is this a judgement, a time of waiting, a time being used to strengthen people, weaken others, and lead to something else?
I have no idea. But I think unless we have a proven prophet, and we don’t, we can’t say something was a judgment during the middle of it. My opinion. That and a sack is worth the sack.
What was I saved for?
Colonel Kim sent the book to 35 military chaplains, and 22 of them looked outside the Army for help. That astounds me. My wild guess is that this colonel has wielded outsize influence in the past, and that his own superiors did not rein him in.
He might not have bought the books with an Army credit card, but he used government resources to distribute it. Perhaps worse, he used his time, on the taxpayer’s dime. Military chaplains tend to be very overworked. He ignored actual duties while compiling his email.
Finally, you call Piper’s book a “gospel resource.” That says something about your bias.
Robert
I am finding you difficult to deal with. You are going nuts in the comment section so I’m slowing you down.
1. You do come across as a Piperette, no matter what you claim.
2. If it is important to teach people about the faith, then passing a book in which the author is
opposed to women in the military having authority over men is stupid.That chaplain was out of line and could have done much, much better.
3 You quote from the LCMS website yet you have absolutely no understanding how the faith is lived out in these churches. I have found the pastors and leaders in my church far more loving than any Reformed church that I have been a member of. So quote all you want. You don’t understand how the theology is lived out and I refuse to educate you since you seem to *know* what is going on. This is typical of most Calvinistas.
4. Finally, have you noticed that you are not making any headway? Or are you one of the Calvinistas who believe that going to war with those nonCalvinist is defending the gospel?
I don’t like waking up to a gazillion comments waiting for approval by you. This has become about you wand what you believe. We get it. You think it was quite lovely the chaplain sent out piper’s book.You are a true blue Calvinist who likes the fight. I don’t.
Benn,
“In Mathew in the Lord’s Prayer, the prayer says and deliver us from evil…..
So if God doesn’t / hadn’t yet delivered us from this particular evil, are we left with the possibility that this could be a judgment?.
I’m not saying it is a judgement, but we haven’t been delivered from this particular evil..”
+++++++++++++++++++
a judgement? only if one believes that God causes evil to happen because God wants evil to happen.
$h|t happens. smoking leads to health problems for the person who chooses to light up. second-hand smoke leads to health problems for the person who did not choose to light up.
God wasn’t involved.
Oh, that old saw.
Max,
Good comment. These true, blue folks are difficult to deal with.They know they are right and they lecture as opposed to dialogue. They play the gotcha game-hence Robert’s quotes from the LCMS to prove he is right. Sometimes, I get tired.
He is dead serious. One thing he has done well is to give us a glimpse behind the curtain.
Oh, most definitely wider than New Cals, but New Cals have developed all these cultic systems to punish people for not falling in line, which is worrisome. I am sure things like that can be employed in the military, both subtly and overtly.
Very typical of the New Calvinists … an arrogance which poses a great hindrance to them hearing and accepting Truth. Kind of feel sorry for them, but not real sorry.
Friend,
They truly do not get how to carefully debate and love others. They believe that love is batting everyone over the head so they will come out believing just like they do.
Magistos,
I agree. And Piper is not a prophet no matter what the dudebros believe.
“…makes me question whether there is any psychological health or sound judgement anywhere in the evangelical world, and why I had to leave it as a young man, leave all my college friends and marriage prospects behind, etc.
I may go to hell for this decision, but I won’t have lost my sound judgement and embraced the warped thinking of Piper, et al, just because it’s “Christian”. ”
Robert,
Please give me the name of your church. I would love to read the website.
“Let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Gal 6:9)
TWW is well doing – hang in there! There is light at the end of the tunnel, but it’s hell in the hallway somedays dealing with these characters. They just don’t get it. They have been following blind leaders and will all fall in the ditch together when New Calvinism implodes (too many arrogant cusses in their ranks vying for the throne … they will do each other in eventually).
dee,
For the glory of God, for your eternal good, for the purpose of knowing God, for the purpose of truly loving God and others.
Robert
4 comments will not be approved. I’m thinking about 5 others. I did approve one. Dying to know the name of your church. Don’t worry. I won’t report you like some do in your tribe. I just want to read your website.
Magistos,
“Is this a judgement, a time of waiting, a time being used to strengthen people, weaken others, and lead to something else?
I have no idea. But I think unless we have a proven prophet, and we don’t, we can’t say something was a judgment during the middle of it.”
++++++++++++++++
a prophet…
any such person emerging in christian culture simply does not have credibility. inherently so.
prophets are found elsewhere. especially amongst great writers, songwriters, filmmakers… — regardless of their faith or no-faith.
Never fear. I am tenacious. The Calvinist apologists are difficult. Robert believes in an angry God. That is why they are so focused on sanctification because they view a perpetually angry God. They do not understand how to lovingly share the gospel. That is ‘why Piper is celebrated. he comes up with all sort of rules that can be applied to prove one is sanctified.. Ive written about this .
Robert does not understand how his arguments are ho hum.Calvinists say the same old, same old and actually thing they are getting through when people just tune them out.
I’ve joked that I would like to set up a center for training Calvinist how to communicate.
Max,
Just noticed I said *tried.*
let me try this again….
——–
Don Ho,
“…makes me question whether there is any psychological health or sound judgement anywhere in the evangelical world, and why I had to leave it as a young man, leave all my college friends and marriage prospects behind, etc.
I may go to hell for this decision, but I won’t have lost my sound judgement and embraced the warped thinking of Piper, et al, just because it’s “Christian”. ”
+++++++++++++++++++++++
you escaped the petri dish.
me, too.
i simply didn’t respect it anymore. because it wasn’t respectable. (trustworthy, above board)
i now selectively choose which people of faith i spend time with, where, when and how. (just a few)
Don Ho, do you still have a faith, of sorts? a hybrid view?
dee,
I’m honestly not trying to be difficult. I’m not even trying to argue Reformed theology. The idea that God is holy, that he will show wrath to sinners, that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross is essential to the gospel and saves us from sin and wrath. These aren’t uniquely Calvinist teachings. They’re Christian teachings. I’m pretty sure you believe all that, don’t you. Every Lutheran service begins with a confession of sin and that we don’t deserve salvation.
I grew up in the ELCA. I have close relatives in the LCMS. If you want to stress the love of God toward sinners, then great. So do I. But first people have to know they are sinners and deserving of divine judgment. Lutherans stress this use of the law. God’s great love as revealed in the New Testament is meaningless apart from holiness and wrath. That’s all I’m saying.
Robert,
You still don’t get it. You parrot quite well but you have missed something important. Think about it.
Contrast Piper to this, from New Testament scholar N.T. Wright on coronavirus:
https://time.com/5808495/coronavirus-christianity/
Excerpts:
“No doubt the usual silly suspects will tell us why God is doing this to us. A punishment? A warning? A sign? “
“But perhaps what we need more than either is to recover the biblical tradition of lament. Lament is what happens when people ask, “Why?” and don’t get an answer. It’s where we get to when we move beyond our self-centered worry about our sins and failings and look more broadly at the suffering of the world.”
“And out of that [lament] there can emerge new possibilities, new acts of kindness, new scientific understanding, new hope. New wisdom for our leaders? Now there’s a thought.”
Thank you!!!! He is weird. I keep talking about stuff like this and the dudebros sit there and nod along. This alone proves that there are problems.
DebWill,
I love NT Wright. He is a fly in the ointment of the Calvinistas. They usually say how they support him but internally they are seething.
Dee,
I think Piper is dead wrong on sanctification. I think his teaching tends toward legalism.
I’m under care for ministry in the PCA, so properly speaking I am a member of the PCA presbytery. (It’s a oddity of Presbyterian policy). The presbytery has no website. Better to consult the denominational site: http://www.pcanet.org
You make a good point Andy.
It was well within the bounds of Madison’s Remonstrance.
And I for one couldn’t have cared less if the good chaplain had extolled The Wonderful Wizard of Oz.
dee,
Robert: Dee, what were you saved from?
Dee: What was I saved for?
+++++++++++++
too much christianese…. my brain simply can’t compute.
“Saved”…. what???
(been in this thing called christianity my entire life… it’s all dishwasher sounds now)
You do not understand that this is not what any of us are saying. There is the greatest love the world has ever seen and His name is Christ. He loves us dearly.
Now, onto the nice issue. I have come to the conclusion that a number of folks like you could stand to apply “nice”. in your life. I’ve rarely met a group of people so angry, so rules oriented, so loving at punishing people than the guys in your crowd. I am saying this both with experience in a Reformed Baptist church which caused me to start this blog and with 11 years of blogging experience.
Recommendation to the Calvinistas: Try being nicer.
elastigirl,
What I was trying to drag out of this Christianese is that God saved us because He loves us and wants to be in relationship with us. This deep love of God is something that is usually skipped over in their discussions of God’s anger and wrath and how He can’t wait to punish us. Sometimes I feel like there is none of that love in their arguments.
Robert,
You still don’t get. I know exactly what Lutherans teach. It took me 2 1/2 years of reading before my husband and I joined. I am deeply committed to my church and love my pastors.
You don’t have perspective on your own communication. style. You stress wrath, anger, divine judgement, etc and never mention love or take it on as an addendum. For the sake of your potential congregation, you need to listen to yourself.
They’d rather be RIGHT!!!!!
dee,
I agree with the first thing you said and mostly with the second. Calvinists can be not nice. Lutherans tend, in my experience, to be more easygoing. We have much to learn from them.
What I am trying to say, perhaps not so well, is that the idea that God loves you and wants to be in a relationship with you isn’t unique to Christianity. Sufi Islam teaches that. Mormonism teaches that. What is unique to Christianity is that this Holy God can’t be in a relationship with you unless someone else bears His holy judgment, and that this great loving God provides that someone. Surely you believe this.
There is no “truly” involved in the scripture. That only leads to you judging what is “truly.”
“And I will be laughing as the world burns.”
— commenter who got banned from IMonk sometime in 2005
Speaking of “wrath, anger, divine judgment, etc”, I haven’t see Mr Jesperson in a while. (Not since his last comment-turned-sermon.) He get himself into Moderation?
dee,
i don’t feel saved.
i feel good.
i have a good connection with God. We interact. “saved”… isn’t part of the equation.
Well, Calvin was a lawyer and Piper is Two Points More Calvinist Than Thou.
dee,
Did you ever stop to think that maybe that’s the case because every time the idea of God being holy comes up, everyone goes crazy here?
God’s love is no addendum. It’s essential. But his love can’t be understood or known apart from His holiness. That’s all I’m saying.
And we’re all one Divine Temper Tantrum away from Eternity in Hell.
Is that what Jesus said? Is that how Jesus approached people? Did Jesus approach all people the same? Have you seen God if you have seen Jesus? Did Jesus come to give life?
Bridget,
Robert: for the purpose of truly loving God and others.
There is no “truly” involved in the scripture. That only leads to you judging what is “truly.”
+++++++++++++
well, now it’s getting comical.
is “truly loving” an algebraic equation, requiring variables we get from checking them off a list?
or is it the organic sincere kindness and selflessness my moslem, buddhist, agnostic, and atheist friends and relatives treat me with, without trying at all?
Bridget,
What I mean is that no one loves God who is not in Christ by faith. That’s all. Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. all think that they love God. But they don’t truly love Him if they don’t believe in Christ.
Bridget,
Yes. Jesus called people to repent or face divine judgment. And he was a Jew. It was based on the law. Mark 1:14–15 among other passages.
Jesus approached people who knew they were sinners different than people who did not know they were sinners.
Yes, to see Jesus is to see God. But the way we see Jesus is through the Scriptures, all the Scriptures.
Yes, Jesus came to give me life. Which means what I had before was death.
dee,
I once did a very informal poll of what these churches were teaching. At least 90% were teaching out of the OT. I must have looked up about 25 churches, and at least 20 were exclusively doing sermons on the OT. A friend of mine that goes to Grace Community said they had been in the Torah for the past three years.
I know from online publications that the Gospels are often left out of New Calvinist discussions. Jesus is rarely mentioned, and when He is, it’s often only referring to atonement.
I don’t know how anyone would have a framework of God’s love if they are not reading or teaching the New Testament.
If this is true, I truly hope someone stops you before you are ordained and entrusted with a position that gives you any credibility or power.
I don’t wish you ill. Far more important: I do not wish any PCA members ill.
For other readers, here is a website that explains “coming under care” in the PCA. I’m not sure Robert has thought about the plain meaning of the word “care,” though: http://www.pcahistory.org/bco/fog/18/02.html
Ok. Set aside Piper’s recurring mention of muscular women and volatile sexual encounters. Its really a side show in comparison to the centrality of the Gospel issue and the nature of reality, as handed down by Reform Doctrine.
A Reform understanding necessitates an unknowibility of God. That specificly being his Sovereignty and Will. Resulting in an unknowable Election.
So is there a Common Misery? Yes.
(1st Head of Doctrine – Article 7)
…”Those chosen were neither better nor more deserving than the others, but lay with them in the common misery.”…
Is this concept important? Yet again, foundational:
..”God did this in Christ, whom he also appointed from eternity to be the mediator, the head of all those chosen, and the foundation of their salvation.”..
So this act of God (Election) is unknowable. And, is directed at those in Common Misery. The operation of Soverignty is not based on merit.
So, I would have to say, Piper is consistant with the view of God discribed by Reform Doctrine. A person’s contracting, or not contracting COVID19, would logically be the same unknowable act of Sovereignty.
Christian Scripture tells us to care for widows and visit the imprisoned. Right now most Americans cannot enter nursing homes or prisons, because of viral outbreaks there.
Unknowable indeed! I’d rather NOT know that kind of sovereignty.
It would be nice for Piperettes to be able to do that. However, you overlooked the problem with Piper in regards to women. So, a guy who makes up rules “No women drill sergeants, no women in combat” is considered the example of what to think during the cornea virus? Totally out of line in this circumstance.
He also said that some contracted the *rona* (as my nurse daughter who has cared for infants infected with it, calls it) specifically to punish them. He does not know that unless you are telling me that Piper has been appointed a prophet by Type 1 and 2 Calvinists.
You mean it is awkward for those who support him.
Nothing to see here, move along….
And one sees a God who came to His people and chose to dwell among them. Jesus had a real thing about the Pharisees. he called them snakes and accused them of placing burdens on His people. Sadly, when a Calvinist comes here to *prove* his point of view, he reminds me quite a bit of the Pharisees, just like John Piper does.
ROFL. I wonder if it would be possible to do a study of this type of a church and correlate it to the frequency of church discipline .I suspect it would be quite high and I’m to talking about serious sin such as shacking up with your honey after leaving your wife. It would be something like I’ve ducumented on TWW. *Not agreeing with the vision casting” “Asking too many questions”
Nathan Priddis,
Actually your comment is percolating in my brain. How in the world does one say that Pier’s view on muscular women is just a side show? As one person said here “This guy is super weird.” Piper gives us lots of examples. It is you guys who made him an icon. You can’t understand him without seeing these bizarre comments. I suspect that there is something weird and wrong with Piper. How can you overlook it? Maybe if you didn’t, you would understand people who disagree.
And this is why I am upset with you. You truly don’t understand those who disagree with you. How dare you say this? What people? When? People here don’t think God is holy? You don’t even understand this blog and who visits here. You don’t understand me. Good night! Please don’t treat those in your coming church in this way.Don’t sum them up as “All of you guys go crazy when I mention God is holy.”
No they didn’t and not you didn’t.
I wonder if by 7-point, he is referring to 7 trumpets, 7 angels, and 7 horns of the apocalypse??????
Lemme simplify that twisted word salad with Piper dressing: Some people get sick with the virus, while some people don’t.
If you read the statement and think about it, that’s all it really means.
Robert,
The way we see Jesus is to ‘see’ Jesus . . . scripture points us to Jesus. Jesus is the Word made flesh. Scripture is not Jesus.
Question…….. well, a sarcastic one:
if Piper has such a gospelly problem with muscular women that he is compelled to write/speak in condemnation of them, why doesn’t he writespeak about boney, frail men???? Shouldn’t frail looking, boney men be a gospelly problem, too????
That’s exactly what it becomes, “truly’ is the qualifier that isn’t actually there. It allows some to judge the love. Of course there is much in scripture that tells us about love. It is often different from what church leaders explain as love. Watch your step! 😉
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
LOL! And do those other people not have “specific sins”? That doesn’t even fly with their own theology.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
ROFLOL 🙂
Robert,
I continue to disagree with you. God’s love in Christianity is not seen in the other faith groups. Ours is the only one in which God expressed His love for us by coming to dwell among us, dying, resurrecting, ascending and promising to come again for us. No other faith is like this.
And what Luther discovered was that he did not have to continue to beat up on himself. Romans 1:17 NIV: in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
dee,
You responded as I was about to. No one here has ever questioned God’s holiness.
I’m beginning to think that Robert reads comments here and something happens to them as they traverse his brain. They seem to be transposed to chopped salad.
I just don’t see how he comes up with some of his conclusions.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
I laughed to loud when Piper said men should jump to defend women when threatened by a mugger. He said the man is supposed to protect the women. Think about it. You are walking with Piper when this happens…Do you step aside and get ready to defend yourself? Yes, sarcastic.
Also, never forget that Piper looooved Mark Driscoll and CJ Mahaney. Such insight…
Then there was the infamous Piper hiding in the bushes watching kids come back from parking somewhere tweet…some of the funniest responses ever.
Side show or the main event?
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FRIXDVsNFuMJ:https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/play-the-man-you-are+&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
His responses are exactly what I’ve experienced from New Calvinists. The thinking is that if one does not agree, one must not be elect, and therefore cannot understand or is questioning God (and not them). By their view of election, if you are not part of the club, you can’t possibly understand proper theology. So they attack you instead of the point you are making. It’s an ad hominem logical fallacy.
Bridget,
I have never heard anyone speak out against holiness. Most of us are well aware that we fall short in this area but know God loves us anyway.
I know how these guys come to their conclusion. They pick out verses that describe anger, wrath, etc. and carefully overlook the biggest thing to ever happen on this planet-God came to live, die and resurrect and let us see Him doing so.
Muff said something the other day that was spot on. he said that there is no verse that cannot be twisted to make it say what we want.
ishy,
Piper discussing effeminacy? Um…
I never said I overlooked it. There is a there, there. Piper is revealing very deep personal thoughts concerning women. So did Gothard, and others. Augustine’s Confessions certainly qualifies too. One man’s inner soul searching became a part of the Church’s understanding of reality. It’s impossible to put ones thoughts in text without revealing clues of the most personal nature.
I said set aside. Separate any statements of Piper on the pandemic, from the things of Pipers personal life. They both do have a common connection, that being Piper’s brain.
The things of the pandemic are solely related to the nature of God, as opposed to any personal sexual proclivities.
You are dodging what I wrote. Propiate literally means make favorable. If God can be propitiated it means he was once favorably inclined toward mankind, but changed to become unfavorably inclined, and then changed again to once more be favorably inclined. It means God changes/repent. If you do not believe in a God who changes, how do you believe he can be propitiated?
Similarly, if God’s wrath can be satisfied it means it changes from being unsatisfied to being satisfied. This means that an atribute of God (if not God himself) is not infinite and changeless. How do you justify an unchanging God being changed in this way? Or are you an open theist?
***”The image of a masculine musculature may beget arousal in a man, but it does not beget several hours of moonlight walking with significant, caring conversation. The more women can arouse men by doing typically masculine things, the less they can count on receiving from men a sensitivity to typically feminine ”***
Uhmmmmm, is anybody else beginning to wonder if Pastor John has an Oedipus complex????
I believe one of the great strengths of Calvinists is their love for and belief in the authority of the Bible. This is tightly coupled with what I believe is one of the greatest weaknesses of New-Calvinists: their love for and belief in the correctness and authority of their interpretation of the Bible.
One very ancient and commonly accepted Christian view is God’s love and wrath are the same thing. His wrath is his eternal “NO!” to everything that damages his image in us. It’s like the parent screaming “NO!” to a toddler about to do something very dangerous. Think of it like running with or against the wind. Our experience of the wind as blessing or punishment depends on the direction we are running. If we turn (repent) from running into the wind it no longer feels like punishment. Our experience of the wind changed, not the wind itself.
Here is a recent article that does a nice job in concisely explaining this view:
https://www.thefaithlog.com/2020/04/the-consuming-fire-of-divine-love.html
New-Calvinists would do themselves a favor by investigating other Christian traditions with an intent to learn rather than condemn.
Some guys are mathletes, not athletes.
John Piper shares his Peekaboo Blouse Workout:
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/a-passion-for-purity-vs-passive-prayers
“The brain is a ‘muscle’…when you see a peek-a-boo blouse inviting further fantasy… Demand of your mind to fix its gaze on Christ on the cross. Use all your fantasizing power”
“When you are enticed sexually…fill your mind with counter-images that kill off the seductive image…use the muscle of your brain to pursue – violently pursue with the muscle of your mind – images of Christ crucified”
“Now I am not thinking about the blouse any more.”
That should have been propitiate.
Definition: “win or regain the favor of (a god, spirit, or person) by doing something that pleases them.”
Why not? What limits/prevents him?
Maybe God’s holiness can’t be properly understood apart from His love! 🙂
Bridget,
It’s entirely possible that I’m misunderstanding at least some of you on at least some points. I know all of you only through comments. So to the extent that it is my fault, I apologize.
For some “insight” into my brain, I look at American Christianity and see lots of megachurches with vacuous teaching on how to have your best life now. I see surveys that regularly state that the majority of Americans, even professing Christian Americans, believe that God makes no real demands of us. So, when I mention God’s wrath and how it’s necessary for being a Christian, otherwise we are just wasting time, and people get indignant, I tend to read that as if those people have no place in their theology for a holy God who is angry at sinners (And don’t we think that God is “angry” in some way at Andy Savage, Wes Feltner, CJ Mahaney, and others who have abused or covered up abuse?)
So, I’ll try not and read that into people’s comments if you promise to try not to read into mine that I don’t believe in God’s love for the world. Deal?
Bridget,
I agree. 100 percent. But we have to define both love and holiness biblically.
“tried” or “tired” … my comment still fits 🙂
Ken F (aka Tweed),
His own character. He cannot be unjust just as He cannot be unloving.
I’m guessing that I am not the only one to notice that muscular women rarely, if ever, look masculine.
You can’t teach know-it-alls how to communicate … the New Calvinists talk over others with canned debate points. They don’t realize that debating is not preaching the Gospel. They are a spiritually sick bunch; I would feel sorry for them if they weren’t doing so much damage to the Body of Christ.
It’s not in their DNA. Have you ever met a New Calvinist who you felt really cared about you, really loved you? One who was Christlike in his words and action? As a tribe, they are arrogant, aggressive, militant, and mean-spirited. Know-it-all bulls in a china shop. Nah, if they tried to be nice, it would just come across too awkward – like my son-in-law trying to dance … nice is just not in their toolkit.
The parent’s scream is not a wrathful scream. It is a scream of warning, terror, alarm. It does not express a viewpoint that the toddler is unworthy and deserves to die.
A god who screams in wrath whenever I start to do something that “damages his image” in me sounds like a tyrant pitching a fit. We have free will. God gave us minds.
I did not explain it well. Did you read the article? The point is that God’s anger/wrath is for us, not against us. And that God always acts with love toward us. We all have a similar picture of God (in one way or another) as Adam and Eve when they were hiding in the bushes while he was chillin’ in the garden. If we see God as an angry tyrant ready to smite the problem us with our understanding of God.
Right? I was reading that and thinking “Fella, have you ever been around muscular women???”
Dr. Piper has issues he needs to work through, and I think I’ll pray over that tonight.
For better or worse, I respect the calvinist bros who show up here and engage, and would ask them to also respectfully engage. My worry is that they think they are – this is not a place where new reformer rules apply, but honest interaction. If Dee says you are not doing so, straighten up.
I keep coming back to the wrathful God who hates sinners concept. God is wrathful towards *sin*. He is holy. He also doesn’t conflate imperfect people with their sins, but sent Jesus. He has mercy, he saves His children, he destroys sin, and He plays (and wins) by His rules.
I can’t expand on this too much because I’m working (supposedly).
This is a foreign thought to the New Calvinists I know … that’s why they miss the message of the Cross of Christ for ALL people. A God of Wrath “saved” them before the foundation of the world, not a God of Love who is still saving ALL who come to Him through Jesus. Their theology is a jumbled up mess that doesn’t see a scarlet thread woven throughout the whole of Scripture … a fabric of love for ALL humanity.
Under whose authority is Piper? What denomination is he in?
“I’ve often thought — I’ve often said, ‘If Billy Graham had been born mean, we’d be in terrible trouble,’ because he had so much power, so many gifts, and so on. One of my distinctions in religion is not liberal and conservative, but mean and non-mean. You have mean liberals and mean conservatives, and you have non-mean of both.” – Martin Marty
NO ONE! (Ain’t it great? /s) He was the lead pastor at Bethlehem Baptist, and retied from there. Baptists hold to local autonomy, and believe me, they defend that. So no pastor, church, or denomination holds authority over him. He answers but to God.
You would think your peers would reign you in, and the Bible does teach that you should have people around you for that, but look who his (Piper’s) dudebros are.
You and I are in considerable agreement. I do trip up on the emphasis on my fallen nature or daily misdeeds. The article likens God to a doctor burning cancer out of me with a laser. In real life, both the disease and the treatment are terrifying, and the doctor is not treating me out of a love for me.
I believe that God loves us unconditionally. We should improve and repent out of a desire to build the Kingdom in the world around us. My faith is healthier and more productive when I don’t start with the assumption that there’s something drastically wrong with all of us.
From my daily reading in Isaiah 1:2 “Hear me, you heavens! Listen, earth! For the Lord has spoken:
‘I reared children and brought them up, but they have rebelled against me. The ox knows its master, the donkey its owner’s manger, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand.’
Woe to the sinful nation, a people whose guilt is great, a brood of evildoers, children given to corruption! They have forsaken the Lord; they have spurned the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on him.
Why should you be beaten anymore? Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured, your whole heart afflicted. From the sole of your foot to the top of your head there is no soundness— only wounds and welts and open sores, not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with olive oil.”
God calls Israel “Sodom and Gomorrah:” 9″Unless the Lord Almighty had left us some survivors, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah. Hear the word of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom;
listen to the instruction of our God, you people of Gomorrah! ‘The multitude of your sacrifices—what are they to me?’ says the Lord.
‘I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of you, this trampling of my courts? Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—I cannot bear your worthless assemblies. Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals I hate with all my being. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you; even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. Your hands are full of blood!
Wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight;
stop doing wrong. Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow. Come now, let us settle the matter,’ says the Lord.
‘Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the good things of the land; but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword.’ For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.
See how the faithful city has become a prostitute! She once was full of justice; righteousness used to dwell in her—but now murderers! Your silver has become dross, your choice wine is diluted with water. Your rulers are rebels, partners with thieves; they all love bribes and chase after gifts. They do not defend the cause of the fatherless; the widow’s case does not come before them. Therefore the Lord, the Lord Almighty, the Mighty One of Israel, declares: ‘Ah! I will vent my wrath on my foes and avenge myself on my enemies. I will turn my hand against you; I will thoroughly purge away your dross and remove all your impurities. I will restore your leaders as in days of old, your rulers as at the beginning. Afterward you will be called the City of Righteousness, the Faithful City.’
Zion will be delivered with justice, her penitent ones with righteousness. But rebels and sinners will both be broken, and those who forsake the Lord will perish. ‘You will be ashamed because of the sacred oaks in which you have delighted; you will be disgraced because of the gardens that you have chosen. You will be like an oak with fading leaves, like a garden without water. The mighty man will become tinder and his work a spark; both will burn together, with no one to quench the fire.'”
Questions that come to mind: Would God call our country “Sodom and Gomorrah” today? God has shut down most all of our assemblies today all over the world for the first time. Why did He do this? Could it be that He cannot stand them? Not just TVC and Piper’s church but how about the one you have attended? If not, how do you know this? God appears quite ticked off at injustice here. So much that He turned His own people over to the sword. How does He feel today about injustice that goes on inside our churches today? “But rebels and sinners will both be broken, and those who forsake the Lord will perish.” Is this still true today or has God changed?
I remember that.
Maybe Piper never had a good make-out session in his youth, so in a vicarious sense, instead of being something good, he’s gotta’ make it something bad enough to make God angry at the kids.
GOD and GOD alone, of course.
Isn’t that called “By Divine Right”?
i.e. a Christianization of the rule of a God-King?
The answer is no.
With these guys (Piper, Driscoll, Grudem, Mahaney…), what’s good for the goose is rarely, if ever, good for the gander.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
You picked up what I was putting down. 😉
God’s anointed and all that. Though since he is an evangelical, I wouldn’t think Holy Oil was involved in his ordaining.
Not being a Piper follower, I guess I missed the tweet from the bushes.
Definitely a sideshow. Way sideshow. Did he discribe the bush location? Side of a building? Wooded trail? Roadside?
Prolly couldn’t find a girl that didn’t have more muscles than him.
Seriously, I don’t know much about military chaplains. My husband was in Special Forces. Those guys don’t have much to do with chaplains – Green Berets are invincible, doncha know??? Plus, Special Forces are a little more lax on regulations and protocol, so a Green Beret can get away with a few things that people in other branches of the army cannot. So, my understanding of the military is a bit ……. twisted, Special Forces style.
I do know that, on average, when a person is on duty and in uniform, there is a price for almost everything they say and /or do, be that price a reward or a penalty. I would assume that the same thing holds true for chaplains.
To me, this chaplain sending out an email to his underlings, while on duty and using a government military computer, is the equivalent of him recommending that all non-married personnel read “True Love Waits”. Would that have been okay???
Not in my book…. and not by military standards, either.
No matter how much you twirl your pens,
But a lot of Christians seem obsessed with it. Apologetics, Culture War Homeschoolers, like if they just WIN the Debate it means God Exists, the Bible is TRUE, and (most important) WE ARE RIGHT!!!!!
Why learn when You and You Alone are already Completely Utterly RIGHT?
Nathsn Priddis,
I just got onto twitter and asked for the links, including the song that was made up based on the tweet. This tweet had, by fa,r the funniest set of Twitter responses I’ve seen in my life. I need to check to see if I put them in one of my posts. I[ll get them for you.
Nathsn Priddis,
You need to go over to my Twitter feed. It’s exploding. Give me a sec. I even have link to the song written about the tweet. Give me about 15 minutes.
Nathsn Priddis,
So excited. I told people on Twitter I really needed the link to this. Here is a direct link to the song written using Piper’s words. Down by the River.
Now here is a link the original tweet Piper, followed by some very funny comments.
https://twitter.com/JohnPiper/status/497193087874392064
Piper has turned into his own sideshow. I think I may put this into a permanent post so I don’t lose it.
Piper either actually watched them kiss, which makes him a peeping tom, or he made it up, which makes him a liar. Which is worse?
It was that tweet that made me convinced Piper had lost his marbles. He hasn’t changed my mind since…
I believe we are, even though I did not communicate it well in my earlier comment about what God’s wrath is. It is certainly a repeated topic in both the OT and NT, so ignoring it entirely is problematic. I think the solution is to search for different ways Christians have understood it across time and location. Most of my ideas about it now come from Eastern Orthodoxy as well as modern authors such as Baxter Kruger, Brad Jersak, Steve McVey, Paul Young, and others in their respective circles. Unfortunately, I have not found a good way to communicate it without leaving out one important aspect or another. But there are plenty of good resources on the internet from the above sources.
Those who advocate for Robert’s view of God’s wrath do not take into account Genesis 3. If their view is correct we should see God storming out of the garden in a fiery rage. Instead, he calmly and lovingly meets them and cares for them. It was not God who could not be in their presence. Rather it was them. They developed such a twisted view of God that they hid from him in fear rather than pursuing him with trust. And I think that is something all of us do in one way or another. But God will never quit reaching out to us in love.
What I have learned from coloring outside the lines is there are very different but viable ways of interpreting biblical passages that I used to think were clear cut. It’s a continuing journey.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Lots of people who discussed the original tweet would agree with you. Piper was going thry his phase of “I am a poet.” Look it up. This was his attempt.
ishy,
Wasn’t the song the best!!!
Likewise, people who knew they were sinners approached Jesus vwry differently from people who thought they were not. This is where the Eastern Orthodox view of heaven and hell is interesting. Rather than viewing it as a location, they view it as a state of being. They say that our experience of being in God’s undiluted presence will be either heaven or hell for us, with the difference being how we relate with love. This explains it better:
https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/morningoffering/2017/08/heaven-and-hell/
This very different way of intrepting heaven and hell also impacts one’s view of God’s wrath and justice.
I must be Twitter challenged because I cannot find the song on your Twitter feed.
I missed the song, too. But I remember some of the really funny comments on that tweet. There are a couple people in the conversation that have private accounts, so I wonder if not everyone saw the song.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Ken F. This is a non-flippant comment… The their something really wrong tweeting about watching kids “making out”… and being close enough to see was unhappy…. ??
There is no good way to spin it. And yet he is still worshipped.
dee,
The infamous song. https://ericpaz.tumblr.com/post/94033764601/a-strange-feature-on-garageband-converts-john
ishy,
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Sorry. Here is a direct link. You have got to hear this.
https://ericpaz.tumblr.com/post/94033764601/a-strange-feature-on-garageband-converts-john
Finally found my faith… I’m a Garageband Convert! Amen and hallelujah!
I believe far more in heaven than in hell, and have long thought that hell had to be a person’s choice. This fits nicely with my unlettered notions.
dee,
Wow. Was it put to music as satire or was it praise for Piper or did Piper authorize it?
“…..They never looked happy. Especially she.”
I think I know why they never looked happy, Y’all!!!!!
The boys were neo-cal Piperets who were trying to convert the girls to their way of thinking!
Its not an actual event at all, it’s a winson musing. My take:
1. Teenagers go down to the river- A Post-War imagination of American youth culture. A forbiden image to Fundamentalist youth of the era.
2. He watches them drive back- It’s collective. A state of mind, not an event.
3. They are unhappy- Serves them right. Point three shows turmoil and repulsion in a clash with the dreamy image of point one.
4. The focus ends with She- Its as though She represents the collective. There is no specific narrative. It is left open, but it would appear all potential tellings involve domination of, or at least regrets of the weaker sex.
Domination / subordination have come up in other tweets. Recall the negative portrayal of strong women, either physical or emotional. A strong female would be more capable of self defense.
You believe in a god who is not free to forgive.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
No, I believe in a God who doesn’t compromise his own standards. If forgiveness without justice is so great for God, and we are to imitate God as the Scriptures state, then there is no point to this blog. What the perpetrators ask for, and what their enablers want, is forgiveness of Feltner, Savage, et al without any justice.
I used to live in Robert’s world. God’s love was defined as “I want to kill you, but I won’t.”
Damn I’m glad I abandoned Calvinism.
Perhaps God isn’t angry at all but heartbroken because he knows full well our sinfulness can’t coexist in his holy presence. And there is nothing more that God wants than for us to be with him and he with us.
Fisher,
I think that on God’s part it’s actually both anger and sorrow over our lost condition.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Total satire. Laughed my guts out. My favorite tweet ion all time.
Friend,
There are a good number of us.
Either way, it would be good grist for an episode of Criminal Minds.
Thank you. I will remember your comment and used it. That is the best description of the attitude I’ve encountered in my 112 years of blogging. I think it was RC Sproul who said about those of us who are not Calvinistsbut still call ourselves Christians…They may be Christians but barely.
Muff Potter,
Or Law and Order, SVU.
Nathan Priddis,
I remember there was this guy in English who would wax eloquent on what a poem was supposed to mean. I think even the teacher was startled. I am quite tired this evening and I think any response by me to *Down by the River* other than another refrain from Down by the River set to music would be tawdry.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
🙂
dee,
Pretty good blues licks.
I wonder what Jimmy Page and Robert Plant would have done with it?
Credit goes to blogger Samantha Field for that quote. She said that’s the Evangelical definition of love. I don’t know about that, but it’s definitely how I understood God’s love growing up in the PCA.
Dang, Dee, you’ve been at this a long time! 😉
I bet very few people here know about our blog origins back during the Taft administration. Mostly distributed by telegraph and telexes. Our biggest hassle was getting comments back in a timely manor.
And there lies a really big unaddressed problem in his theology. If Piper really is very mentally unstable, who is really able to help him get help? He is the top of the food chain. No one in his family is allowed to even have an opinion that is different from his. Neither are his former church members. And being that most pastors of similar theology consider him a pastor of pastors, they really can’t either.
What if he does have serious dementia? He can just refuse to go to the doctor and his whole family and everyone around him is trained to not dispute him. But that doesn’t mean that he can’t be a danger to himself and others.
Ken F., me too. I’ve read these authors and others including David Bentley Hart and Robin Parry. As I do more research and read my Bible from this new perspective, I’m more and more convinced of God’s unending love for all of us. I’ll never go back to fearing a wrathful God.
Meredithwiggle,
That’s interesting. I’m in the PCA. Can you point me to where the PCA teaches that God’s attitude is “I want to kill you, but I won’t.”
ishy,
There in also lies the grand dilemma.. The reformation through off, for Protestants, the “oppressive” top down leadership of Rome….. but look what is left….. all of the abuse that is not as “organized”, more “local”, yet, one could argue, just as bad…
Dee’s next post is about “gossip”…. the use of the word “gossip”, can be just a ploy by authoritarian rulers, to control “the narrative”……
Yeah. I still have yet to see some comprehensive biblical arguments for strong human spiritual authority. They usually just assume it’s a given and they are it, while claiming they are really trying to do what’s “biblical”. They being anyone from any group that claims they are in spiritual authority over others. I mean, Jesus even says that all authority is His in Matthew 28. For a theology that places so much emphasis on human authority, there really is very little on why that authority should given to those who claim it.
There are some solid arguments for governmental authority, but if you are just assuming you are a spiritual authority because you want to be one, that not going to fly with me.
Was that before or after the Pony Express? 🙂
Heck, I think it goes all the way back to Paul Revere when he rode through the countryside shouting “The New Calvinists are Coming! The New Calvinists are Coming!”
Exactly. It’s an attempt by false shepherds to shame the sheep into silence.
If a pony delivered every reply, heaven only knows what I’d be putting in the comments…!
This s your problem. A woman has left Calvinism due to her perceptions of the attitude of Calvinists. And you response is to say “No way.”
I’ve been trying to tell you how you come across. You stress God’s wrath and anger above all other attributes. You have even accused all the people on this blog (except for you, of course) of denying Gods’s holiness for not seeing it your way.
Instead of showing kindness and love and trying to reach out in care and concern to this woman, you, once again, talk about yourself. You are self absorbed and have an inability to relate to the pain and concerns about others if it threatens your obviously superior theology.
Wade Burleson who is Reformed (btw, once did a sermon: “Do Not Let Theology Trump Your Love. If you came here to “prove” your theology to the great unwashed, you have failed miserably.
It’s time for your to be quiet. Trust me, we all get it. 8 comments in moderation will not be approved. It’s the same old stuff anyway.
I will forever view any lyrics that contain “down” and “river” in a very unintended way after this post.
dee,
I’m not trying to “prove” my theology. I just want fair play. I’m sure she left Calvinism because of the attitude of the professing Calvinists she knew. But it’s not fair to blame “Calvinism” because some Calvinists are jerks.
Would it be fair for me to blame Lutheranism for theological liberalism simply because I saw in the ELCA and left it? Would it be fair for me to say all aspects of feminism are bad and evil just because I’ve known some feminist jerks?
It’s your blog, and you can do what you want, obviously. But it seems to me you have a double standard here. You freely let the attacks on Calvinism by Ken, Max, and many others fly. You let them repeat again and again how evil PSA is. You let someone else accuse Piper of being in the same league as a pederast and a sexual sadist.
Are you really interested in helping to effect positive change among the “New Calvinistas”? This kind of stuff won’t do it.
I actually understand this way of thinking because it is how I used to think about it. What changed my mind was exposure to a wider sampling of Christian writings, especially ancient writings or modern writings based on ancient writings. I learned too much along the way to be able to continue to believe what you still believe. I learned, for example, that the Calvinist view of justice is only a very narrow slice of the historically Biblical concept of justice. Words matter, and I found that I was not using words the same way as the authors used the words.
Beyond that, there are all kinds of logical problems with what I used to believe. For example, forgiveness and payment are mutually exclusive. Also, if Jesus was punished in place of us, and punishment is eternal separation from God, then Jesus did not pay the penalty for our sins because he is seated at the right hand of the Father. I could go on and on.
I applaud you for your tenacity. But your arguments have no credibility with me because they fail on so many levels.
If you are happy with what you believe you should continue to stay inside your bubble. If you research outside of your bubble you will find yourself not being able to un-see evidence that undermines your current beliefs.
The real issue is whether you are committed to following the truth wherever it takes you, or if you are committed to ignoring anything that could change your paradigm.
Robert,
“That’s interesting. I’m in the PCA. Can you point me to where the PCA teaches that God’s attitude is “I want to kill you, but I won’t.””
++++++++++++++
doctrine and theology contain lots of implications and logical conclusions that are never officially put into words.
(unless you’re Bruce Ware, who goes the distance in articulating the logical conclusion of his theology: men were made in the image of God; women, on the other hand, are just derivatives)
i have heard so many ‘sermons’ (official and unofficial) with just the right delivery — tone of voice, sincerity, gravity, passion… and the inherent message was devastating.
yes, so often the inherent message is that God hates you.
You are worthless scum. you are so disgusting that
(1) you don’t even deserve to live, so Jesus died in your place;
(2) and now if you reject that premise you’re not only disgusting but a shamefully ungrateful brat
(3) BUT (and here’s the bright side) if you reject everything about yourself (everything about how you’re wired, your personality, your aptitudes, your feelings, your intuition, your personal preferences) and instead conform to the narrow prescribed cookie-cutter shape, then you might be acceptable.
these are the inherent messages of every sermon i’ve ever heard. in a variety of denominations and schools of thought.
it’s all hidden in christianese gobbledeeguk, persuasive speaking, and a tacked on thesis statement that “God loves you”
(sort of like a frankensteinian argument — i just invented it:
it’s where you come up with an argument, any argument, and then for the crux you simply sew on the notion “God loves you”. as if that suddenly makes the argument valid.
parts of different systems that don’t fit together, but sewn together as if they do. and assuming you can persuade people it’s real and true.)
the mixed messages are off the charts.
ishy,
Great thought…. In my over 50 years in various Christian denominations, I have seen/heard, a comprehensive, truly Biblical, justification for church authority… or should I say, a single, or group of individuals, with authority..
What we tend to hear is either “bullies”, or close to “bullies”, trying to ram “their” biblical view on the pew peons..
In fact, looking back, many of these “leaders” were just smooth talking used car salesman..
I understand used car salesman is a common job for ex-preachers.
The Rules of CELEBRITY are in effect.
Nobody tells the CELEBRITY anything other than what the CELEBRITY wants to hear.
And in the past 50 years, Rome has mellowed and the Reformed have hardened to where the two sides have effectively switched places.
“BECAUSE WE SAY SO!”, why else?
Hybels, Driscoll, MacDonald, Mohler, Dever, Piper, etc. etc. In cults of personality, “The Man” has absolute authority … no questioning, no correction allowed.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
It seems that way…although, some would say John Calvin ran Geneva as a autocrat. When I being up Calvin with my professional colleagues from Switzerland, good old Calvin is not well liked…. which to me, says allot…
So much this. Doctrine is not the black and white words on the page of the theology tome. It’s what’s lived. It’s what is said and not said, in the tones of voice, the body language, the topics chosen and the topics ignored, in the silences. It’s in nonverbal cues and facial expressions. It’s in what is emphasized and what is downplayed.
Robert took what I said, and where most people would say, “Wow- I’m so sorry that was your experience. What a terrible thing for you” he jumped straight to, “PROVE IT.” That shows more about his doctrine than what’s written in PCA documents.
Waaaay too many of these reports but I digress. You are still not getting it. Look above for Meredith’s comment to see what she said.
Your problem has little to do with your devotion to Calvinism. It has to do with your inability to understand hurt people. Whether or not you like it, many people, myself included have had negative encounters with Calvinism. This blog stresses abuse. That means applying it to your time. If you’re gonna be a pastor, think about what people are telling your here.
When someone comes to you someday and says I left a church because the Calvinism got downright mean. Your *go to* response should not be, that;’s not fair. Think about it.
Robert,
You have completely misunderstood your position. The creators of Reform Theology, didnt understand Reform. If they had, they would have been more careful in its crafting.
After of course. The pony express was killed off by the telegraph. 🙂
Very interesting choice of words. Jesus said the Truth sets us free, not any particular ism. You believe that Calvinism is a package of bundled truths, but you have not done any real fact checking, which would require you to cross-examine those beliefs. I have been doing the fact checking and finding Calvinism falling apart under cross-examination. You call that an attack on your cherished ism. I call it being set free. Your choice is whether to stay enslaved to an ism or to be set free by the Truth.
dee,
Well if somebody came to me one day, my first go to response would not typically be, “You’re wrong.” My typical response would start with, “Yeah, that stinks. Calvinists can be mean sometimes. In fact, let me tell you about how the Calvinists have been mean to me. Believe me, I have stories. Let me tell you a few…” I don’t know any of you apart from pixels on the screen. That tends to make things less personal, but that’s not an excuse, so I apologize.
Honestly, I don’t think that defending “my world” is self-absorption. It’s my attempt to defend the godly, kind PCA minister and counselor who helped me see that life was worth living when I was in the throes of a profound, near-suicidal depression over a decade ago. It’s my attempt to defend the wonderful Calvinists who did so much for us when my special-needs son was born. I could name others. All of these people hold beliefs that line up in many significant ways with Piper and others. Somehow TULIP hasn’t made them mean. But when people come and say “they lived in my world” or “they know my world,” it’s a declaration that the kind souls in my world are mean and cruel and that my theology can produce only meanness and cruelty. But that’s naive and untrue. Every brand of Christian theology has its jerks and abusers as well as its kind people. Every brand of non-Christian theology has its jerks and abusers as well as its kind people.
You keep talking about how you know “my world,” and yet you’ve not approved many comments that actually show I’m not as heartless as you think and that I actually agree with many commenters here, such as Ken F, more than they realize. That’s your prerogative; it’s your blog. I’m here only at your grace and permission. But it’s also giving people a false impression of who I am and what I actually believe, and in turn it’s just reinforcing the narrative of a lot of people here who think that Calvinism must produce only nasty people. More than one commenter has said that they have lived in “my world” based on only two or three comments.
I honestly don’t care if any of you ever become Calvinists. No one is going to hell for not being a Calvinist. I agree that there are lots of problems in New Calvinism. But those problems are due more to a lack of true accountability than anything else. Where has most of the high profile abuse taken place? In independent churches (including Baptists, who are functionally independent)—Driscoll, Feltner, Savage, MacDonald. There’s no effective way to deal with these people. It happens less in Presbyterianism, but it does happen there. Tullian—but note that he was kicked out of the ministry. He has his own church again now, but that’s not the PCA’s fault.
It’s the New Calvinists who need to take blogs like this one seriously if there is ever to be hope for change. But comments like “the PCA did this,” or “Flounders Ministries,” or “New Calvinism inevitably leads to x” guarantee that Calvinists new and old won’t. You’ll gather some people who have been abused and some who just like to grouse about the church, but you won’t get any hearing from anyone who most needs to see that abuse does exist in their circles.
Honestly, Dee, I’m pretty sure that if you and I were to sit down for coffee, we’d get along quite well. You’re a no nonsense kind of person. I like that. We might even have some spirited theological debate that would keep me on my toes. The same goes for many of the commenters here as well. I agree with you more than I disagree with you.
I’ll comment nothing more on this thread, but I’ll read anything you say and try and take it to heart. I would like to talk with Ken F more about PSA, however. 😉
Robert,
“…a double standard here. You freely let the attacks on Calvinism by Ken, Max, and many others fly. You let them repeat again and again how evil PSA is. You let someone else accuse Piper of being in the same league as a pederast and a sexual sadist.”
++++++++++++++++++++
if something and/or someone is destructive and dangerous, people talk about it. in an effort to understand, and protect our own well-being and that of others.
Very interesting choice of words. Jesus said the Truth sets us free, not any particular ism. You believe that Calvinism is a package of bundled truths, but you have not done any real fact checking, which would require you to cross-examine those beliefs. I have been doing the fact checking and finding Calvinism falling apart under cross-examination. You call that an attack on your cherished ism. I call it being set free. Your choice is whether to stay enslaved to an ism or to be set free by the Truth.s
I’m always up for (or is the new lingo “down for”?) conversation. But to make a PSA conversation productive you would have to do a lot of homework on the arguments against PSA. I have read way too many arguments for both sides, and it’s been long time since I have seen a new argument for it. And I have seen no argument for it that does not have an even better counter-argument. If you have a better argument for it you must first be well acquainted with the arguments against it.
In the end, I really don’t care if someone wants to believe in PSA. But I do care when PSA advocates trash those who disagree, and when churches make it a mandatory belief backed by threat of discipline.
Penal Substitutionary Atonement huh?
As if all the human death, suffering, and abject misery from the fall aren’t enough, there had to be a further penalty levied?
What kind of a father would penalize his kids for something that meant their demise over time from a corrupted genome passed on from generation to generation?
I can no longer buy into it, my conscience won’t let me.
Love that typo!
Me too. As a theory it fails logically, ethically, morally, historically, and biblically. The best way to explain its popularity is confirmation bias.
Once upon a time it was called free speech. I saw, “Don’t Waste Your Cancer” in many a home of perons who wouldn’t agree with Piper on much if they had bothered to track his history and analyze his beliefs as many of us have. But most don’t.
Maybe if “adult” chaplains read it, they could debate Piper’s theology with each other. I have always found that helpful, myself. Do people think sending a link to an ebook confers force of thought? Would it be ok to send links to Martin Luther on Jews or those disobedient peasants? Or would we just hope that they do their homework?
But a court martial? Seriously? He would probably be hailed as a hero had he sent Das Kapital.
What is up with all the acceptance of censoring? It’s everywhere. Evidently we are not adult enough to hear from other doctors or epidemiologist on YouTube who go against the the bureaucratic Public Health official party line. Now a Chaplain should be court-martialed for sending a link to an ebook?
Let the information flow freely and adults tear it apart in debate and discussion.
Dee,
Thank you for allowing ‘some’ of Robert’s comments to be posted. They have given us insight into how such folks think, a good look at his thread of religious belief and practice.
You’re assuming that the New Calvinist leaders are actually interested in change. I’ve seen very little evidence of that.
Piper has been saying ridiculous and even hurtful things for years now, and no one sits on him. Driscoll was obviously toxic to anyone who bothered to think about it, yet his tribe didn’t dump him until he’d injured God knows how many people. It’s been over a year since the SBC was outed as a cesspool of sexual abuse, and they’re still barely moving to improve it.
I strongly suspect the true attitude of New Calvinist leaders is: “What problem? The System works just fine for ME!”
(Apologies to HUG 😉 )
Change what?! The New Calvinists truly believe they are the sole keepers of truth, that all other expressions of faith are built on error. Nah, they wouldn’t change one jot or tittle.
Exactly, it’s like old MacDonald’s farm; here a verse, there a verse, everywhere a verse verse, and voila!, it’s indisputable fact.
I concur Lyds, even if said literature has no redeeming social value (Roth v. United States – 1957).
I care a lot more about the people that the New Calvinists want to trick or force into their cult. I know this blog has brought to light a lot of things that the New Calvinists were trying to hide from their members and those they wished to recruit. I know people personally who have been impacted by that.
Anyway, without recruits, the New Calvinists will die out on their own.
Is it free speech in the military, though? I think that’s an important question. The New Calvinists do not allow free speech in their churches, so why would a New Calvinist in the military think any differently.
In this instance, a commanding officer in a hierarchy institution sending links with his recommendation via official email addesses to his subordinates, yes it confers thought. The subordinates are not free to leave the institution or confront the officer without fear of retribution. We’re not talking about fb here. When has total freedom of thought been encouraged in the armed services?
Pastor to congregant, elder, deacon at least allows the option to leave the church, although we have seen that retribution occurs even here. Certain personalities in authority can be dangerous beings.
Bridget,
BTW, this doesn’t imply I believe the man should be court martialed.
This is the reason why free speech is limited in the military. In this case it was not a free conversation among equals. He should not have sent out the book. On the other hand, the group of offended chaplains should not have gone to that legal organization without exhausting legitimate and approved resources within the military.
And this is not just a military issue. Can you imagine if your boss sent you and some co-workers a book that you all found offensive? Civilian companies also have policies that limit free speech in the workplace. For good reason.
This is the real issue. Even if there are some who do want to change, the movement does not. So there is no point in hoping it will change – it won’t. The best anyone can do is expose their deeds and warn others.
You might have missed some of the dialogue upstream showing why this is not a free speech or censorship issue. It would be nice to see the full text of the email to know how much pressure was implied.
That’s why their followers come at TWW with gnashing of teeth. They will defend their idols to the bitter end. Piper is idolized … for the life of me, I don’t know why.
The best arguments against New-Calvinism are the New-Calvinist’s arguments for it.
Yes. Even the best of them eventually talk themselves into a corner.
They are taught to regurgitate beliefs and not think about them, so this happens a lot. But because they’re taught to just accept and not think, they can’t even see when they are in a corner.
New Calvinist followers obviously lay down their critical thinking skills when they enter the door. The smoothest job of indoctrination that I’ve ever seen!
Serving Kids in Japan,
“…and no one sits on him…”
+++++++++
the imagery cheered me up!
Serving Kids in Japan,
“Driscoll was obviously toxic to anyone who bothered to think about it, yet his tribe didn’t dump him until he’d injured God knows how many people.”
+++++++++++++++++++
the picture of self-centered leaders
(doing nothing because it looks good for them personally. then finally doing something because it looks good for them personally)
Max,
“They will defend their idols to the bitter end. Piper is idolized … for the life of me, I don’t know why.”
++++++++++
protecting their bubble from bursting? the free fall is a scary prospect.
Max,
“They will defend their idols to the bitter end. Piper is idolized … for the life of me, I don’t know why.”
++++++++++
protecting their bubble from bursting? the free fall is a scary prospect.
I have read the article and most of the comments and I seem to be missing something. What military regulation did Colonel Kim violate by sharing Piper’s booklet? If a violation exists, then it should be investigated. If not, then this incident is being entirely overblown. I don’t think it is wise to out anything by Piper, but military leaders show a lack of wisdom in many cases.
I have read the article and most of the comments and I seem to be missing something. What military regulation did Colonel Kim violate by sharing Piper’s booklet? If a violation exists, then it should be investigated. If not, then this incident is being entirely overblown. I don’t think it is wise to out anything by Piper, but military leaders show a lack of wisdom in many cases.
Does this help?
https://www.defense.gov/ask-us/faq/Article/1774638/are-service-members-permitted-to-freely-practice-their-religious-beliefs/
I have not seen the whole text of the email, so there is no way to know how bad it was. And MRFF is always looking for ways to restrict religious expression, so their involvement is more than fishy. In any case, sending the books to subordinates was not wise.
This might also help:
https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/atp1-05-04.pdf
See pages 11, 12, and 24.
I think Piper is a lightning rod for criticism. So, you have a point that it could appear to be an overreaction.
But, the DOD is integrated. Piper’s statements push back against that current state. I don’t see how Piper material could be distributed without undermining the chain of command, even if the specific material did not mention females. He has other materials that do mention women.
The military intigrated African-Americans and it is a similar situation. You cant distribute a book by an author who also is claiming elsewhere that minorities are less then equal.
Sorry but coronavirus is not a punishment from God any more than diabetes or hemorrhoids are. This idea is harmful to anyone who’s contracted the illness and worse for family who’s lost a loved one. It’s not helpful in the least. It kind of brasses me off, actually.
If this chaplain sent the ebook on army email and the book violates army policy then it’s not a matter of free speech. This guy could send to his friends and like minded cohorts on his private email to their private email, and that would be free speech. I guessing the accusation that homosexuality is the reason for the virus probably blew by a number of policies regarding respect in the workplace.
I guarantee I’d be called to task for sending this out on the company email at my workplace.
If someone sends me this privately, I’d tell them to stop. At work? I’d complain, yes I have the right to not be exposed to offensive material.
Men, women, equal – repeat.
Is your post sarcasm?
The Bible states specifically that people were given hemorrhoids as a judgement..
So what you are saying is God sent COVID-19 to the planet because it stole the ark of the covenant. Makes perfect sense. All we have to do is return the ark and all will be well.
This is the real point. Respecting company policies while on company time and using company resources is not censorship.
Let me clarify, I struggle with either side that says they know the mind of GOD ( GOD proper )
But to use as an example a sickness that GOD specifically did use as a judgement, is so rich I just couldn’t pass up
My point is we don’t have the mind of GOD, and it is silly to say categorically with certainty if GOD has or has not used this as a judgement
Some are quick to criticize those who ( very presumptiouly imho ) say this is a judgement
When in fact no mere mortal can possibly know
I think it is silly to say-with certainty either position
I agree. I was playing off of your silliness.
Gotcha, I missed your sarcasm, I couldn’t see your tongue planted in your cheek from where I was setting
Lets not forget the dreaded Philistine Roid Plague.
Centuries later, drawing from this very text, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, was penned, and Colonial Christianity would indelibly be forever changed. Some whispered this momentous penning took place in a frigid New England outhouse.
As a small Fundamentalist child, I could only determine myself to never name any male child, “Rod.” (In the inspired KJV english of course)
I wasn’t being sarcastic, I guess I missed that class in Sunday school, but the sentiment fits. I don’t believe he sent hemorrhoids either, and I’d keep that part of scripture quiet lest it cause an emergency stockpiling of Preparation H.
The ark of the covenant is hidden in secret warehouse in the Nevada Desert, with the crashed saucer recovered at Roswell and recipe for non-carcinogenic sugar substitutes.
Jack, thanks for response, you used such a unique example, I wasn’t sure if it was snark. -:/
You would think that someone of Piper’s supposed stature would understand THIS and the ramifications of it. But, alas, he doesn’t.
Hia clarification today agrees with you:
https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/whats-the-comfort-if-the-coronavirus-is-judgment
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Piper is always trying to get in the spotlight with sensational tidbits of tormented Scripture. New Calvinism would not exist without such celebrities and their mumbo-jumbo. This personality cult has attracted a multitude of spiritually immature who wait each day for the masters to speak … their anxious yearnings are satisfied in the twittersphere with Piper Points, Mohler Moments, Dever Drivel, etc. What a waste of youth, who might otherwise seek Christ.
Anyone got Indiana Jones on speed-dial?
I read the desiringgod interview. The clarification means nothing. I find no comforting words there even if I was still Christian. Everything is couched in judgement, you are not loved, you are judged. When you combine that with rigid intolerance and misogyny then any message is tainted beyond any usefulness.
His message is not for those of us who have apostatized or reject his interpretation of scripture. God created us to be destroyed. I dislike the man and the message.
Yes, his classification does in a sense say some people get sick and some dont. And, he says he does not know who is getting sick from judgement and who is just sick. Which is then a seperate issue regarding why Piper is issuing authoritave statements, that cant be authoritatively made.
More complicated is why does Piper, a Calvinist, take an ambiguous view on historic Reform Theology.
Here on the instructions on temporal punishment, both body and soul:
…-ARTICLE 1—THE JUSTICE OF GOD REQUIRES PUNISHMENT
God is not only supremely merciful but also supremely just. And as He Himself has revealed in His Word, His justice requires that our sins, committed against His infinite majesty, should be punished not only in this age but also in the age to come, both in body and soul. We cannot escape these punishments unless satisfaction is made to the justice of God.”…
We know from elsewhere the reprobate are sealed in wrath and no satisfaction of wrath is open to them. This wrath is not reserved to after the Resurrection for their torment, but here and now as well.
The Gospel According to Aristotle?
Add Hal Lindsay’s Late Great Planet Earth and you have the Gospel I most consistently heard when I was in-country.
What ever happened to Christus Victor/Victory over Death?
At age 64 in the middle of a coronavirus pandemic, that has a lot more importance than PSA.
Did he start twirling his pen, mouth watering for The Debate?
Jack,
if the roman god Mercury has anything to do with the word “mercurial”, that’s who john piper’s god resembles.
It’s because he does not understand Calvinism. But to be fair, no one understands Calvinism. I suppose I could take this one step further and opine that there is no such thing as Calvinism.
There are some good proof-texts for this, such as that verse in Genesis 2 where God says, “in the day you eat of it I will surely kill you” or that verse in John 3 that says, “for God so hated the world that he killed his only begotten son.”
Because guys like him don’t want historic Reform Theology. They want their own theology to use as they wish and throw out whatever is inconvenient to them. The first thing they throw out is applying their own theology to themselves. I guarantee Piper and friends don’t consider themselves subject to their own theology, which means they don’t really believe in it.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Honestly, I think their adherence to words like “reformed” and to someone like Calvin is more for marketing purposes than from studying and believing those things.
Regarding no one understanding Calvinism;
I think the concept of its creation is that its vague. I can come up with proof text showing it is valid and invalid.
There is a flaw though. No Church Counsel or Synod ever believed their decisions would be challenged. They forgot the Prophet Daniel discribed a court in Heaven. Therefore, their decisions where not created with a defense incorporated.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Since the last few years Rome rigidly and with ill-mannered snappishness enforces wishy washiness.
Total depravity is alive and sick among the “apostolic” as well as where I mixed in my (mostly off) popish days. (Specific preachers vary the blend from all bleach to all sucralose, but it’s the same blend.)
elastigirl on Thu May 07, 2020 at 12:00 PM rings lots of bells.
Is this why Rick Warren is cosying up? And do we have a reason to copy Warren?
I think Robert has emotionally invested in a kind of apologetics that doesn’t have room for consciences, boundaries and integrity, that’s why he likes similar religions from which he was drawing a non-existent contrast the other day. I.e the argument doesn’t take us where he claimed it would take us. A thing is more important than wonderful us (who have the same circumstances as Robert). Moloch (the machine of the mega ones) eats children.
quote It’s my attempt to defend the godly, kind PCA minister and counselor who helped me see that life was worth living when I was in the throes of a profound, near-suicidal depression over a decade ago. It’s my attempt to defend the wonderful Calvinists who did so much for us when my special-needs son was born. I could name others. All of these people hold beliefs that line up in many significant ways with Piper and others. Somehow TULIP hasn’t made them mean. unquote
But I don’t think their beliefs line up with those of the mega ones, if they don’t operate through the machine. At any rate, the part of their beliefs that came into it when you were in need under their noses. Humans are beneath but not under the noses of the mega ones.
Some people claim to assent to a set of statements out of a combination of habit and getting on with other members. Some Holy Spirit gifts operate in that context, but the ensemble is weak. The reality in some church leadership types, and the real effect in some churches, and a formula like TULIP, and the reality in some members, are four different things.
As bullet points merely alluding, depending on interpretation, TULIP does tell part of the story. (Three contrasts from nominalistic reifying of them.)
We’re not slamming anything when we let off steam. Distortions of Our Lord have been given huge traction and mental force.
My heart is with certain church congregations, except that certain individuals around whom a lot revolves are chilling. In other cases my heart is with a few individuals where the ambit is chilling.
When I was in a worse state by 12 than I had been at 10.30, I had to drop out. Or where I liked Wednesdays but wasn’t allowed unless I had been Sundays. And those many fashionable congregations that lock you down from June to October inclusive, plus six weeks over Christmas. (One of the worst in other respects, didn’t.)
Our strength of mind is the most important quality from this month for the rest of our lives. We happen to live in a hazardous planet and I am fairly consistent and I grow every day. The only God worthy of my belief doesn’t advertise. Others’ melodrama about how stupid their adored religion makes them look in their own eyes doesn’t come over empathetic. We by contrast have testimony, belief, and dignity – including the agnostics.
The Lord brings with Him recompense; stolen children get restored, where there has been injury, restoration to wholeness, in various senses, without nominalistic reifying. Injustice got deprived of her children and hell got thrown into mourning (Melito of Sardis).
No-one was with Him, He was appalled, His own right arm saved Him. Not the slick videos. Not the mealy-mouthed, nor the po-faced.
So yes, justice, and it works for us, not against. We get united to Christ and we have the choice to not become the super apostles (or their brain-numbed hangers-on) of Galatians, II Cor and James, if our mega ones don’t ration, dumb down and deform the News for us.
Retrieve paradigms lost!
“Blasphemy” is another juicy statutory offence comprising criticism of the central administration of the fellowship.
The latest is that absolutism is “open” thanks of course to a named individual, and standing up for those grievously betrayed (in a very serious situation) is “right wing”.
Weird dialect!
Meredithwiggle,
In the straight sucralose variant, “grace” means “we don’t rock the boat”, “we” being meant to be taken as who the icy glare and gritted teeth are aimed at.
I’ve seen gun jumping, I’ve seen airbrushing out context, I’ve seen denying I know more than them about almost everything, I’ve seen christian defined as like them and not like me (around them I call myself agnostic anyway because it’s my way of refusing to press buttons, and that disorients them).
When I discuss by contrast, I add, nobody loses. They can take away, mull over, they frequently constructively advise & suggest, they help me get better. All my thinking is original, and it draws on others’ achievement.
The other type, they aren’t out to help anyone, least of all themselves, they make their own lives a misery – because the mega ones told them they should. What it draws on is non-achievement.
What is “communion” when the leader betrayed the suffering?
Amos 5:23-24 stop your din. The justice of God will appear in Holy Spirit fuelled works.
I like those things about the real God! I don’t need to hedge Him round!
Friend,
Robert, your only duty is to be original and individual.
Piper actually pulls punches. This particular book is muddly and its rhetoric vague and it doesn’t delineate clear tasks for the church. There is scarcely anything about supplicating and interceding prayer.
Now this chief chaplain puffs up the publication by calling it “small”, alarms us with his admission of bad focus, and bamboozles us with waffle implying continuing weakly and a special saviour all of his very own. This is no example to subordinates in the perspective of their care as per second sentence.
How many official e-mails from him do they have to ignore with justifiably decreasing politeness? My guess is they are sick to the back teeth with his emotional instability.
Christians ought to have always been able to cope intellectually, even while we weren’t being hit by events.
This world is hazardous for reasons we can’t fathom. And Christians need to be taught that God will judge believers and non-believers differently, also the children from whose mouths the bread has been stolen differently from those who had a better chance to know.
On TULIP, atonement is limited in the sense of being individual in acceptance. God’s community is joint and common, not corporate. Infralapsarians and supralapsarians believe the same because God helps who can be helped. The other three points Piper just trivialises. Of course the interplay between inside and outside of time is something he ignores.
Of course many hazards are inbuilt, with a huge range of variations. And contingency may or may not be seen as involved in providence or guidance. It’s actually shocking how many sins he doesn’t explain. And he dishonestly avoids the question of making oneself (or the senior one wants to creep to) the god in the church.
If I was a chaplain with a congregation of differing stages in walk with Christ, I would at best mine this book for fragments (so I could pretend to pander to Pipalikes) (reframing some of them). I would especially try to teach what it doesn’t.
A commanding chaplain that wants to addle our brains the way his got addled – I would be more ballistic than the ordnance! But some of the RC and AOG I’ve met, sadly, wouldn’t notice, I fear.
Whoever is over the chief chaplain, might ask the congregations, did you do as your chief chaplain recommended? What position does this put them in? Piper acts like a dilettante professor emeritus, who can cherry pick what theological fragments tickle his foibles.
In this whole thread I don’t read what are the fruits of “new calvinist” (or whatever brand name) prayer.
Remember, Benn, we’ve got another guy on this blog doing the same except he’s DEAD SERIOUS.
Longtime lurker, first time commenter. My husband is a Lt. Col in the US Army. We’ve known lots of chaplains over the years. So some information:
1. The faith of Chaplains occur in the military in the same ratio that the faith occurs in the general military population. So, for example, 25% of soldiers are Catholic, then 25% of chaplains must be Catholic. (Made up number, just for example purposes.) There are Muslim and Jewish and humanist chaplains, but the majority are Christian of various flavors. I don’t know how many are Calvinist. But I would say many are Zionist.
2. Chaplains must provide religious services for whoever asks for them. This does not mean they have to personally PERFORM the services. Chaplains cant force their views on anyone, but they don’t have to violate their own conscience or beliefs. So, for example, a mom-to-be comes to a church of Christ chaplain and asks him to baptize her baby. But the church of Christ does not baptize infants under any circumstances. So he says, “I’m sorry, I don’t baptize babies. But Chaplain Smith does.” Or if there is no one who does it available, he would provide them the space and the materials to do it themselves. (That’s a real life example) That gets more complicated for Jewish and Muslim soldiers, because their odds of having access to a chaplain of their faith is pretty small. So the chaplain might provide space for prayer during the day. Or more likely, make sure their chain of command doesn’t interfere with their right to practice their faith.
3. Most chaplains are assigned to a unit (battalion level or higher). They are to serve the faith needs and the morale needs of all 1000 or so soldiers in the unit. They walk a fine line because they are accountable to the commander of the unit they are assigned to, and also have a chaplain chain of command. (I seem to remember a Jewish rabbi saying something about serving 2 masters….) It’s a very hard job.
4. There is usually a Catholic service and a General Protestant service on most installations on Sundays. There might be other types, depending on what type of chaplain is available. Most of the chaplains in a garrison will take turns leading the GP service. They also have to take turns being on call for emergencies like hospitalizations or suicide threats.
5. I read the CT article. My husband and I didn’t see anything court martial worthy in the article. He would have to have broken a UCMJ law to be courtmartialed. It doesn’t sound like he did. Unless there is more to the story, I think the organization suing is overreaching. Was what Chaplain Kim did ill-advised? Maybe. I wouldn’t be happy to get that book in my email. But punishable? No.
P.S. Chaplains also have a budget for books and materials to give away that they sense could be needed in their community. Chaplains’ job is to keep up morale, and tending to people’s faith is part of that. So purchasing the book wouldn’t be illegal either. He thought it would help his subordinates, so he recommended it. I’d venture a guess that most of the chaplains who got that email skimmed the book, if they opened it at all. They’re very busy people.
Thank you for the context. He is probably used to having them roll their eyes at him (except the gullible ones).
I think there is high value in a body like (in this instance) MRFF sending signals even if they would have a low chance of pursuing a case. Religious freedom especially in a sensitive environment where morale is uppermost, is more than not flying above the radar. MRFF know full well quality is vital where there isn’t denominational gatekeeping. Piper touts himself as speaking to all kinds of christians. Chaplains with consciences need a body like the MRFF, and vital issues remain vital even when it isn’t a matter of “winning” cases. The crucial survival of consciences can’t wait for “cases” and will be at threat from the next multi billion charlatan in less than five minutes. Piper’s company will know if they had “success” within the military and this has created a clear precedent already.
Hsarmywife,
Actually there are no explicitly Humanist chaplains in the US military as far as I know. The Navy was considering one in 2018 then a few dozen US congresscritters wrote opposing any humanist chaplains. Admittedly some of the handful of Unitarian Universalist military chaplains may follow the humanist strand within UU (just as some may follow the neopagan or Wiccan strands and some the Christian strand).
I also note that the MRFF is involved because 22 Christian chaplains complained.
His action is precisely against faith and morale – as is the inaction of those colleagues that didn’t complain.
You want to see Piper’s God in action?
All Sovereignty and Omnipotence and His Own Glory?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_a_Good_Life_(The_Twilight_Zone)