A Time to Reflect: Does Your Church Make You Anxious or Feel Small? Maybe It’s Time to Consider Leaving.


Bruce McCandless flies solo.1984 NASA

“As a general rule, I would say that human beings never behave more badly toward one another than when they believe they are protecting God.” ― Barbara Brown Taylor, Leaving Church: A Memoir of Faith

My daughter, the Peds ICU/ED nurse in Boston, currently has a cough and lots of sinus stuff. She has been put on an antibiotic (Z-PAK) and will not be tested for COVID for 3 more days. She cannot go into work until this is resolved. Please keep her and all health care workers in your prayers.


Dee’s personal story of a church takeover

After we left our Reformed Baptist church, we attended a nondenominational church that we had joined during our first stay in North Carolina. By this time, I had started this blog and was quite well aware that a number of the Reformed crowd which includes The Gospel Coalition, Acts 29, 9 Marks, The Founders, etc. were engaged in an all out acquisition war within churches. This combined with severe authoritarian behavior disguised as church discipline was becoming the rule of the day.

They were seeking, in particular, churches which had good facilities and a hearty income. Why spend the money to plant a church when one can just, with some craftiness, simply become the leaders of an established church while quickly forcing out former members who wouldn’t play along with “Capture the Castle” Calvinista style?

Elders and other church leaders

What is absolutely necessary for this plan to work is to identify some leaders in the church who are closet Calvinists-TGC, 9 Marks or  Acts 29 style. In our situation, a couple of elders had retired to this area and had been involved in the New Calvinist movement previously.  I wish my husband and I had listened carefully when we started attending this church. The two elders said “This is not the church you remember. Things have changed.” However, they were quite vague when we asked questions. We stupidly thought that the new guys had a few different ideas which was to be expected. We had no idea they were discussing a radical or even cruel change.

The hiring of a new senior pastor: If they don’t let you ask real questions, you are being had.

The Calvinista boys have been taught to play word games when someone asks them if they are Calvinists. “I believe in grace, don’t you?” Of course they mean the doctrines of grace which have relatively little to do with grace the way most people think when asked this question. Word games are considered sanctified lying by this crowd.

A former pastor left due to disagreements with some of the leaders. When we asked about it, we were told he was following his own rules and didn’t take suggestions. Warning: if you hear this, make sure you try to find out what that means. In fact, the former pastor was a great guy who was most definitely NOT as Calvinist or an authoritarian leader.

So, they found *the right guy.* However, when he came for his trial sermon deal, I knew something was up. They had a church meeting and we were told to submit questions. My question: Do you consider yourself a Calvinist?” Mine was the only question not read at the meeting. Again, sanctified gamesmanship is the key.

My husband and I voted against him but 90% of the church voted for him without being told who he really was. His very first sermon as the new pastor started off something like this. “I’m so glad to see many of you here. I know you’d rather be at home in bed listening to Driscoll.”  He didn’t even use Driscoll’s first name since he assumed everyone would be in love with Driscoll. (Virtually no one knew who Driscoll was in the old church.)

The second sermon he quoted John Piper extensively. And then, the day he heard Piper was stepping down from his pastorate, he was almost tearful in the pulpit? He said how he and his friends were now the gray hairs of the evangelical world and would need to step up to the plate. Yep, he was in the group of Piperettes. This pastor also loooooved Driscoll and CJ Mahaney. He was a water boy for the celeb Reformistas, just awed to be in their presence. Still is.

He said he was looking forward to dialoging with the members, maybe even going to coffee houses. Instead, he would bolt out of the service and lock the door of his study. No hand shaking for this guy.

He immediately sent about changing the bylaws and the constitution.

Folks, this always happens. They start by saying that nothing has been changed in these documents in *forever.* They have to bring them up to snuff. At the meetings, I realized that they were changing things to allow the pastor and BFFs to have lots of leeway in hiring and firing.The congregation was merely there to be a rubber stamp for his set plans.

The board of elders changed except for the old boys who sought him out.

Some of them were very, very young and impressionable young men. They believed they were somehow more theologically sound than some really smart people. Naive. They were elders just like those Mormon kids coming to our door are elders. They are controllable and feel very excited that they are spiritual enough to be considered elders.

The new pastor started by firing a woman who was the head of the children’s ministry and hired a pastor who served at Sovereign Grace Church’s former mothership, Covenant Life Church.

This was harsh. People really liked her but she was woman and he needed to hire a male pastor from Sovereign Grace Church’s Covenant Life Church. He said this was a very important thing that he had to do.  He *had skin in this game.* This move demonstrated the blunted character and lack of love by this pastor.

He hired a CJ Mahaney lookalike for his assistant or was that *executive* pastor? They love these titles.

He came to our Sunday school class and told us his son was name Calvin. I said to my husband and few others near me “We are so screwed.”At the same meeting he said that leaders and members are separate but equal. He held up his hands to show they were equal but one hand was higher than the other and I started giggling. I knew we would be be leaving soon.

I found they were now members of The Gospel Colaition. This was done without a vote.

I pointed this out to one of the elders. He said I was incorrect. Poor man. I gave him the printout. So, they said a secretary* did it *by accident.*  Needless to say, shortly afterward they did become *oofficial* members. They were not pleased with me at this point.

We knew it was time to leave when the pastor assigned us to elder accountability groups.

The church was well aware that I wrote a blog, so when we were told to meet with out elder, We declined. At which point, the Piperbot senior pastor said he wanted to meet with us. We declined and said we were resigning from the church. Bless his heart…he wanted to help us find a good church. We told him we had it covered.

Due to the coronavirus, all of you have some time to assess whether or not you are happy with your church

You have been given a gift of time away. Ask yourself some hard questions.

  • Does you church bring you joy or does it make you chronically anxious?
  • Do you feel like you constantly fall short of the *rules* imposed by your leaders?
  • Have you secretly been relieved to be away from your church during this time?
  • Do you want to change your church but know, deep down inside, that things will probably not change?
  • Have you attempted to talk with your church leaders and found that you were shut down and made to feel stupid or problematic for your thoughts?
  • Do you feel they care about you?

As one who has been there, I have some good news. There are good churches out there with kind pastors and nice folks who do not spend their time trying to get you to live up their imposed rules. As one pastor who I admire said “Do they spend time cooking the books” in order to make you feel like you are falling short while they subtly prove how good they are?” They can quote Spurgeon, after all.

It does not have to be like this.

Do you hold out hope that  you will you be able to change your church?

You can only change things if you catch what is going on prior to the hiring of the pastor. If you get a pastor from 9 Marks, you will have serious problems. They are taught the ins and outs of church takeover and they are very, very good at it. They will not tell you the truth about what they believe prior to their hiring. You will be playing a game of chronic catchup and they are way ahead of you.

If your church resembles my old church, I have some bad news for you. It is highly unlikely that you will be able to change things. These guys know how to abuse members who don’t play their games. You will end up under church discipline and will have no idea how you got there.

Even if you can change things, post facto, its may not have the result that you will like. There is one church in which the folks got the majority of people to vote out the pastor who was a typical gospel boy. He knew it was coming. He spent time sucking up to the church leaders and church employees. Just prior to the vote, he got up and said he was resigning and taking quite a few people with him. He opened a church right around the corner from the old church and his buddies made sure he had the cash to do so. I’m not sure who won here.

Here is the hard truth. You know your Scripture. You have the best arguments and proofs that make so much sense but you are operating under an illusion. They don’t care. They came in to do what they are doing and there is NOTHING you can say or do that will make them see the light. They think they know more than you do and they can quote their friends’ books to prove it.

You decide you will probably leave. What should you do or don’t do in the meantime?

  • Do not go to meetings with the leaders with great arguments about why you are right. They don’t care. They have an agenda and you are not it.
  • You can leave your church at anytime, even if you signed a membership contract. Here is a post that I wrote on how to do this. How to Resign From a Church Whether or Not You Are Under Church Discipline
  • If you have decided to leave, do not go to any meetings to discuss your leave-taking. They will use this to claim that you are still a member of the church and they can continue to abuse you.
  • Start visiting other churches. Be open to a different faith tradition. The best thing that ever happened to my husband and I was trying out a Saturday evening service at a Lutheran church. We’ve been there for a few years and continue to love it. I have learned so much, especially how the Law and the Gospel interact. I wished I’d learned this sooner.
  • If the old church attempts to discipline you or calls your new church, be prepared to go to war. These guys are so self centered and authoritarian biased that they think they can do this. They really can’t. Just do what I wrote about in the link above. You can actually sue them if they keep it up.
  • I know some pretty clever ways to leave your church. One of the funniest meals I ever had was with a family who had left Dever’s church. They knew what might happen so they concocted a plan which was awesome and worked. They knew they would go after them if they didn’t do it. So many people have shared their leave-taking techniques with me but I can’t tell you these publicly since I promised confidentiality. However, if you need my help to get out, give me a call and I can advise you privately.

Let me give you a clue. If you pastor doesn’t care enough to put himself out to do a sermon online during this time, it’s probably time to rethink the paradigm.

Listen to me carefully. Your church should not make you feel like you don’t match up to their superior expectations. You should not feel uneasy going to meetings. There are good churches out there but it might take time to find them. We attended two other churches for a couple of years before we found our current church.

In the meantime, join a community Bible study or parachurch group to keep you sane during this time. We were fortunate in this regard. Start your own Bible study in your neighborhood or volunteer in a homeless shelter.

I would love to hear your stories of leave-taking. How did you handle it? Did you get abused by stupid church leaders? Have you found some support from other churches or groups? What is one thing you did that you wished you hadn’t done.What is one thing you would do over?

Stay well Know that I am praying for all of you who come here.

Comments

A Time to Reflect: Does Your Church Make You Anxious or Feel Small? Maybe It’s Time to Consider Leaving. — 160 Comments

  1. I hope what is happening today will help many to leave their unhealthy churches and for others to realize for the first time that they are unhealthy.

    There has been one woman telling of her story of spiritual abuse at Antioch Baptist Church in Tennessee. Here’s a brief quote, “See I also longed for my intentions to be understood and represented clearly. By this point, unfortunately, Douglas Stauffer had done his best to rip me apart piece by piece in a slew of lies and deceit, and he seemed to have Pastor Andrew Ray wrapped around his finger.” http://blogs.spiritualabuse.org/2020/03/26/blindsided-the-olds-house-divided/

  2. A Tale of Two Reformed Churches, with my ‘farewell’ letter at the end:

    I had stopped attending the church soon after my wife’s father (an elder) died. After 15 years of spiritual/emotional abuse {early on, I opened the newspaper – there was a letter by him, with my name in order to circumvent the one-letter-per-month policy} – no way in heck was I attending the funeral. Months later, one elder actually ‘encouraged’ me to seek the forgiveness of those I hurt by not attending the funeral, but twice said “I don’t want to know why you didn’t attend…” when I tried to talk to him about completely unrelated topics.

    Wife’s final straw was her friend being abused; but the elders covered it up. Well, they didn’t really cover it up; they just didn’t investigate. Didn’t hurt that the abuser was personal friends with two of the elders.

    Did they try to ‘follow’ to our new church. Yes. Different denominations, but the new church was started by men who had been elders in our old church.

    Problem? The old church elders view/live the word “elder” strictly as a noun – obey my authority; the teaching elder is strictly an academic preacher-type. The new church elders practice the word “elder” as a verb; the teaching elder may not be the best at academic preaching, but definitely a pastor. So, not a problem as there was already some tension between the two groups. {Hope that makes sense.}

    So, an example that while both churches are Reformed, one is very much “Obey your leaders and submit to them” (Hebrews 13), the other is very much “For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matt. 11)

    —-
    As to the end questions….wow and ouch!! Let’s just say that the one thing I did right (following a lot of wrongs because I was very angry after having lived for 15 years under a church that practiced ‘unequal weights & measures’ – Proverbs) is that when they threatened to discipline me, after having been at the new church for over 6 years , was to respond thus:

    To the Session of {redacted}

    Regarding your letter of April 17, 2018,

    If you wish to compound your sins against me by dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s of your Book of Church Order in an attempt to cover up such, that is your choice.

    Especially considering that we would have met already if you had obeyed the commandment “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor” by truthfully and fully answering the questions in my letters of Nov. 16, 2017 (& Oct. 3, 2017). For such would have proven that you submit to Scripture, and would not have dealt falsely with me. (Reference Luke 20:1-8; particularly the study notes in The Reformation Study Bible, R.C. Sproul – General Editor, ESV, verses 5,6 & 7,8)

    My choice is to say the following:

    ”You have my contact information if you choose to repent.”

    And

    “May the Lord of Hosts, the God of Jacob, judge between you and me,”

    Sincerely,

  3. “The Gospel Coalition, Acts 29, 9 Marks, The Founders”, …

    Piper, Wilson, Hybels, Warren?

    So much branding, so many disguises… hard to keep straight. Just when it’s all down on paper, someone maneuvers by changing the label, and window-dressing the same old schtick. Kind of how some leaders trade in their wives for their secretaries or ministry helpers.

  4. I don’t know if it’s “pastor doesn’t care enough to put a sermon online” in our case as much as she (we’re ELCA) is “not technologically knowledgeable” enough. We’re a very small church, and to her credit, she tries to keep everyone in the loop through regular phone calls during this time.
    The pastor has said that this may shut the church down if regular giving falters while the church building is closed for the duration of “shelter in place” orders.

  5. My 9marks pastor (the sole elder at the time) excommunicated a friend of mine for what I thought was some marital infidelity. It was nothing of the sort. It was a blatant abuse of spiritual authority, which I discovered a year later. I confronted the pastor/only elder initially by email (a mistake), which led to two private, fruitless meetings. At the end of the second meeting he asked me what my next move would be. I told him that I had no choice but to quietly leave the church, since my friend was not interested in getting involved. The pastor tricked me into another meeting with himself and several other men of the church. (My advice: Don’t agree to such a meeting). After this meeting, I told them I was leaving the church and tendered my resignation by email, and stopped attending. Three weeks later I received a 7 page letter from the church by certified mail, charging me with being a slanderer and reviler.

  6. I then made the mistake of drafting an email to respond to the charges, which I emailed to the congregation on Sunday morning (a grave error). Then I attended church later that morning (another error) at the Sunday school hour. I was approached by the pastor, who asked to meet privately. We met in an adjoining room, along with one of the pastor’s sycophants, and a police officer-member. I was threatened with arrest by the psstor if I didn’t leave immediately. I said that I apparently was still a member, and got up to attend Sunday school. Instead of a sermon that morning, the pastor presented the charges against me to the congregation. I was given the choice of leaving the service or refraining from talking. I stayed (another error) and sat through my “trial.”

  7. The pastor told the congregation that they were not to receive any information from me, or to listen to my side of the story. They were told to go home and delete the email that I sent them. Despite these restrictions, they were told to confront me in my “sin.” So I received many emails from church members pleading with me to repent.

  8. I visited other healthy churches over the next year, which started the healing process. I then received a call from one of the men who had signed the 7 page letter, a friend and former client of mine. We met at Starbucks, and he apologized for siding with the pastor. The church had split, and they started a new work with a newly-minted pastor who had recently graduated from The Masters Seminary. I began attending there, and became a member. After another year, I met a man (a former pastor) and his wife who were visiting. They would become my closest friends. But I discovered a rigidity in our pastor, who said that my gifted friends could not teach at our church because they did not solidly hold to dispensational eschatology. This led me to leave this church as well, but in a much more peaceful manner. After a private meeting with the pastor telling him I was not firmly dispensational, I just left.

  9. Back at the time around this post, I attended a church not far from the churches dee attended while attending seminary. My church’s singles group was actually a sister group to the one at dee’s first church, and we did a bunch of things together.

    The same thing dee describes happened at the church I was attending, except I don’t think anybody there was as savvy as dee. The former pastor wanted to be a missionary and left. During the church search, I sat in on the meetings and heard the responses the candidates gave. They started with three and narrowed to one. Nothing seemed amiss at all to me. The final candidate graduated from SBTS.

    Within a few years after they called the new pastor, the same process dee described happened there. The rest of the staff was fired and new staff brought in. Elders were instituted, as was a covenant. M<mbers didn't sign the covenant, but "agreed" retroactively simply because they were already members.

    I saw an old friend from that church a few years ago and asked what had happened. He said he still wasn't sure. Within a couple of years, the church turned into something completely unrecognizable. My friend said his job had transferred him and the church tried to tell him he couldn't go "because God said so". Then they told him he could only go to a new church of their choosing, but he would be under church discipline for leaving at the new church they chose. He said he renounced their membership and they continued to call him insisting he was still a member there and demand he submit himself to church discipline. If I ever see him again, I will tell him to write a letter and appeal to the laws that give us freedom of membership in this country. Maybe he reads this blog and already knows, I don't know.

    Some friends of mine attend a decent-sized SBC church and their pastor is about to retire. I implored them to watch out for these predator pastors, because that church is large, has money , and is close to NAMB. It most definitely will be a target. My friend said "that will never happen". I believe that if they refuse to look at the issue and think they will be fine, it will happen. There are probably already New Calvinist members in place to push that through. I've seen with my own eyes how they work and it's as deceptive and sneaky and outright offensive to God.

  10. re: ” assistant or was that *executive* pastor? They love these titles.”

    “Executive pastor” may be more than simply proliferation of officers.

    I have read that the “exec. pastor” duties include dealing with “disagreeable” congregants so that the “lead” or “preaching” pastor does not have to; this sounds to me a bit like “bad cop” to the “lead pastor’s” “good cop”.

    At Mars Hill, IIRC the “exec pastor” was not a “theological” job, but more an “administrative” one. Why call the man a “pastor” at all? Perhaps that serves the above agenda of standing between the “lead pastor” and the flock.

    I’ve been thinking about the weakening of “community” that has been proceeding in US for a long time.

    The churches ought to be communities of mutual aid in the midst of this crisis, more “bottom up” than “top down”. It’s almost as if the changes that the neocals have been implementing in recent decades have diminished the capabilities for “in the common interest” action. It’s not hard to see parallel developments in other areas of society and governance.

  11. Oddly enough, sometimes a church gets a new pastor who would like to take the church away from the Pied-Piper movement. I go to a church that used to have quotations from Piper in their bulletin almost every week. I wrote to someone about it. Nothing happened. I asked that my concerns about Piper be shared with the “quote-finders”. They were shared. Shortly thereafter Piper quotes disappeared except once (at Easter). Then we never saw them again. It was a powerful elder and his wife who were the Piper fans. They are still there, but honestly, I think the new pastor was glad to shed the Piper ID this church had acquired.

  12. Samuel Conner: “lead pastor”

    I’m not sure what the origin of that term is, but it certainly became prominent within New Calvinism – I noticed it first in the Acts 29 Network. Early in the movement, “Lead Pastor” was one of the red flags one could look for in determining if they had stepped into a New Calvinist church, in addition to everyone carrying an ESV Bible, of course. That title appears to be of more widespread use now, particularly in mega-mania. “Lead Actor” would be more appropriate, since these folks do very little leading of the flock in the way they should go; they prefer to strut about on stage rather than doing the work of the ministry. “Lead” to them means ultimate authority since Jesus has no authority in the new reformation.

  13. Dale,

    Oh Dale, been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I mistakenly met with a group of hostile elders, a neophyte pastor and two denominational leaders in what they would deny was a denomination. I was mistaken to meet with them alone, the distortions and outright lies that came out of their reports of the multiple meetings I had with them did great damage for a time.

    But no more, freedom came in the many gifts of grace God gives in times like that. I am thankful you are well after all you have been through.

  14. Ava Aaronson: Warren?

    I saw a TV interview with Rick Warren once (at the time, he was being touted as “America’s Pastor”). He was sitting in his library with a prominent sculpture of JC in the middle of the room … John Calvin, not Jesus Christ. Piper has called Warren a 4-Pointer … Piper claims to be a 7-Pointer (he has to have more points than everyone else, you know).

  15. “Does Your Church Make You Anxious or Feel Small?”

    If it does, it is not the Church of the Living God. The Christian experience should be refreshing and liberating as the Holy Spirit draws you closer to God. If the place where you attempt to worship Jesus makes you feel anxious and small, you can bet He ain’t hanging out with that bunch. If you are in a place that is more exhausting than refreshing, hand them back your membership contract and say “No, thank you.”

  16. I learned to ask two questions:

    1. Does that look like something Jesus would do?
    2. Does that sound like something Jesus would say?

    It has become very easy to deal with abusive church leadership since.

  17. “By this time, I had started this blog and was quite well aware that a number of the Reformed crowd which includes The Gospel Coalition, Acts 29, 9 Marks, The Founders, etc. were engaged in an all out acquisition war within churches.” (Dee)

    Early on, the New Calvinist movement was a silent enemy spreading throughout the American church – the coronavirus of evangelicalism, a pandemic within Christendom. Indeed, the Founders movement within SBC called their attempts to Calvinize the denomination as “The Quiet Revolution.” But, the organizations you cite are now loud and in-your-face … no reason to sneak around by stealth and deception; much of the American church has rolled over and died, allowing them easy access.

  18. Here’s what I would want to know: On Sundays, what does a church instruct or inspire you to do throughout the week?

    At our fairly healthy church, the preaching follows a lectionary. Although some folks think lectionaries restrict sermon writing, they also force preachers to focus on Scripture—imagine that! This focus can make sermons less urgent and topical. I’m fine with that too, since urgent and topical sermons lavish attention on outrageous trends (yoga pants, I’m lookin’ at you).

    Our sermons encourage me to think more clearly about my own deeper motives and actions; to tend to myself, because I am worthy; and to realize that I can make someone else’s life better through kind service and generous love.

    These themes do not only emerge from sermons, though. Our clergy and volunteers pay kind attention to each worshiper. Although the congregation is introspective (not very demonstrative, not huggy), we do make eye contact and conduct ourselves politely. A full worship service, including prayer, song, and Communion, builds up my stock of serenity.

    That hour of being at our best establishes an ideal, which informs everything else we do.

    I’m eager to get back, but our church was one of the first to close due to pandemic, and one of the first to announce a continued closure through Easter. Based on recent projections, I don’t think public worship in my region will be safe until May or even June.

  19. Friend: On Sundays, what does a church instruct or inspire you to do throughout the week?

    I don’t know how many times over the past several years that I heard someone say something like “Wow, we sure had a great church service last Sunday!” When I ask them “What was the preacher’s sermon about?”, their response was something like “I can’t remember exactly.” The “great church service” in their mind was about the music presentation, not the preaching. I saw a poll once where church members were asked on the parking lot about the central point of the message – most couldn’t remember sermon points by the time they got to their car or could explain the message in terms that “instruct or inspire”! A Southern Baptist evangelist of yesteryear, Vance Havner, used to say that a sermon ought to make you glad, sad or mad but it should never leave you unchanged.

  20. Mike: in our case as much as she (we’re ELCA) is “not technologically knowledgeable” enough.

    Again, might not this be chalked up to laziness? I know one older pastor on the west coast who is learning how to do this. He wants to be part of the solution.

    My church, which always posted the sermon has expanded to making videos for the kids who will finish confirmation this year as well as a run through the full service.

    I knew I had to start a blog. I am technologically challenged.The only thing I could do was bid on Ebay. I found help and started this blog.

  21. Max: A Southern Baptist evangelist of yesteryear, Vance Havner, used to say that a sermon ought to make you glad, sad or mad but it should never leave you unchanged.

    Thinking out loud here. Until the reformation, Christians everywhere believed that the bread and wine became the real body and blood of Jesus (in one way or another). As far as I can tell, Zwingli was the first to argue that is is just a symbol with nothing inherently spiritual in the actual elements (Luther strongly disagreed). Once churches replaced the eucharist with the sermon as the center of the service, could it be that many churches likewise removed the real presence of Christ from the sermon?

  22. dee: Again, might not this be chalked up to laziness?

    Asking for help from millenials would solve the problem in a heartbeat.

  23. dee,

    I’m not that tech savvy either, but I can usually find a video to help me through (screen shot by screen shot). And, I’m a young Boomer, not a digital native. You could also make a video of a service and put it up on Facebook or YouTube. Our church’s first service wasn’t live because they didn’t have it all organized, but they posted a pre-taped service the next Sunday, both on the website and on Facebook.

    Zoom is also easy to use and free for up to 40 minutes. So, there are choices!

  24. Ken F (aka Tweed): Once churches replaced the eucharist with the sermon as the center of the service, could it be that many churches likewise removed the real presence of Christ from the sermon?

    Well, one thing is for sure, if you remove Christ from the center of church instruction – whether it be by teaching or preaching – you won’t find Him in that gathering. Certainly, individual believers can walk in the presence of God, but if you cut Jesus out of the equation in a corporate assembly of church members you won’t find them walking together. Much of today’s preaching is more psychology than Gospel. What is the point of doing church if you do it without God?! The essence of Christianity is relationship not religion … and that relationship should be with Jesus, not the “lead pastor” and what he is serving up for Sunday entertainment.

  25. Dale,

    Do you think your being called out during the church service may have helped open other’s eyes, being a step towards the needed split?

  26. Ken F (aka Tweed): Once churches replaced the eucharist with the sermon as the center of the service, could it be that many churches likewise removed the real presence of Christ from the sermon?

    A thought-provoking (and, to some of the tradition, provocative thought) question.

    I suspect that many (perhaps most or even all) of the traditions have become somewhat detached from what the early churches were. The focus has, it seems to me, changed from “being the people of God/of Christ in the world” to “navigating the perilous journey toward a happy afterlife.”

    There was a strong emphasis at the beginning on “mutual aid out of love for the fellow-believers”. (One sees this at the beginning of Acts, in James and 1 Jn, in Paul’s “one another” emphasis as well as his “collection for the poor”, and in some of Jesus’ sayings). This may have been intensified and necessitated by the shared experience of suffering and persecution.

    A fruitful way that church leaders could “lead by example” in the present environment of shared suffering is to invest themselves into similar “mutual aid” agendas now. Alas, that might involve forms of service that are too close to “waiting on tables”, that is considered improper for elders. Perhaps if they devote themselves to prayer, the pandemic will miraculously go away.

  27. My wife and I were involved in a Calvary Chapel church full of lovely people, great music and lively teaching. After a year we started leading a divorce recovery group at the church. It went well and the pastors were supportive. I became part of an impromptu men’s group. For some reason creation came up and I talked about my acceptance of evolution as God’s method of creation. Next time I was in the church and office I got pulled into a pastor’s office and lectured about the “dying theory” of evolution. This same pastor wanted to know how many marriages were “saved” in the divorce recovery group. As time went by we witnessed terrible marriage advice, so that we vowed not to send our participants to the pastors for counseling. Sermons veered into anti-intellectualism and blatant partisan politics. We learned to avoid the pastors and focus on our own ministry. I think the final straw was when a friend was banished from the church for refusing to follow the pastors harebrained and dangerous marriage advice. We started looking for a new church and found a lovely American Baptist that was the opposite of everything wrong with our previous. I sent an email to our pastor telling him we left and why. He emailed back how hurt he was and invited me and not my wife, to come into his office for a chat. Being as I had stuck my head into that noose before, I declined and suggested a coffee shop. I knew from experience a loud verbal admonishment was his plan, so I wanted a public place.
    Crickets. Last I ever heard from him. Ever.
    Meanwhile we love our new church! Elected board, female leadership, pastor has a legit doctorate and has sermon posted on Biologos website! Troubled marriages are referred to professional therapists.
    Just leave your mess of a church behind and find another.

  28. I grew up Reformed…left when i was saved in my twenties. A helpful blog to understand Calvinism in all of its twists and turns and theological arrogance is called Soteriology 101. The author as a gracious former Calvinist that will help you understand the debate. He has literally hundreds of articles and podcasts to help you see clearly the errors and fallacies of this false teaching. Another resource is the Lighthouse Trails blog. They have published some books refuting Calvinism, one written by the late Dave Hunt. An excellent resource but dont expect to convince a Calvinist to change his mind!!!

  29. Friend,

    Our church also follows the lectionary. It does not make me feel anxious and I miss it, although I don’t hate sleeping in on Sunday’s for a while either. We have gotten a lot of emails about the ways we can still connect or help each other right now that I appreciate.

    As for leaving churches, pretty sure I’ve never done anything formal, just stopped attending. But the church I go to now is probably the only one I’ve formally joined as an adult.

  30. Ken F (aka Tweed): Once churches replaced the eucharist with the sermon as the center of the service, could it be that many churches likewise removed the real presence of Christ from the sermon?

    Personally, I don’t believe that the bread and wine turn into living cells of Jesus inside me. His presence is real nonetheless, in both sermon and eucharist, because we invoke Him through prayer.

    Literalism does not build a strong faith. It stops thought and impedes the exploration and resolution of doubt, fear, love, grief, and joy. I would venture that it impedes service, too.

    Literalism also gives people lines to draw, chips to knock off shoulders, and a zillion more rounds of the old game, I’m Going to Heaven and You’re Not.

  31. I’ve been asking myself the question: just how much anxiety can I tolerate to remain at my current church?
    My church is in the YRR stream. We’re listed on the 9Marks website and the Master’s Seminary website. The teaching statement subscribes to young-earth creationism and theistic determinism (read Calvinism). Though complementarianism is not spelled out in the teaching statement, the pastors’ subscribe to CBM&W-type complementarianism. After reading multiple books on each subject, I’ve come to different conclusions than our pastors about each of these issues. However, I’ve found the pastors very open to discussion regarding these issues and they’ve even encouraged me (in writing) to freely share with other people what I believe and let them know if anyone is hostile toward me.
    What makes me anxious is that despite the pastors’ gracious attitude toward me, I simply don’t believe some of the central things they believe. I’ve also found that some congregants are surprised and a little concerned if some of these issues come up in conversation and I share some of my views. All congregants I’ve spoken to about these things (very few, mostly closer friends) do not express any desire to study these topics for themselves. This lack of curiosity and desire for education also makes me anxious.
    What I’ve found is that all these issues come back to what people believe about the Bible and how to read it. If I share a different view, people tend to question my commitment to scripture.
    Despite these things, I find that these issues are not presented as first-order issues in the preaching and day-to-day life even if they are underlining assumptions in most congregants’ minds. And I respect the right of the pastors and congregants to believe things that are different than what I believe. I mostly like my church. I find the people loving and welcoming (even after they find out the different stance I have on some issues), I enjoy serving there, and I’ve made friends there. I also really like the expository preaching, which is a little hard to come by.
    So, how much anxiety can I tolerate? Thoughts?

  32. Yes, it seems our churches have too often been taken over by men who love power more that living. But I thank God that he still has a remnant of pastors and leaders who are not bullies. Remember when Jesus said to the disciples that they were not to rule as the world rules but be servants, the least of those and to “lead from below?” There is s great book that should be read by leaders and all really. It is called “Biblical Slave Leadership” by the president of Appalachian Bible College in Beckley West Virginia. My family and I went there once a year for what was called family camp for fun and bible teaching, it was great and very affordable, during my time I got to see how Dr Anderson practiced it. First of all he learned my name and my family’s in lest then 48 hours , could be found painting a building, picking up trash that he found on the road and was a delight to talk to. No question was simple and when my children who were very young talked to him they got his undivided attention. Once, I hurt my leg playing sports and had difficulty walking and he came over graciously and took my lunch tray to my table. he did that whenever he was in the cafeteria eating with the visitors. He exhibited a servant attitude. He exuded the spirit of Christ along with other staff members there. I watched for the several years we attended and he was a the real deal. He was the President of the college, busy and educated but it seemed never to busy to serve. A great example. There are men and women out there like that but they seem to be in short supply every, but our God reigns so we keep the faith. Thanks Dee, you are like a guide taking a wagon train to Oregon in the 1800’s, your wise, experienced in the dangers of the journey and your there to help. God bless you.
    PA I asked earlier this week for prayer for girlfriend who has corona in NYC, still sick but getting better thanks, means a lot. Pray for the healthcare workers, many are sick and some have even died.

  33. Paul K: So, how much anxiety can I tolerate? Thoughts?

    How much and how long do you want to compromise or temper your own beliefs? Do you go to church alone? If not, have you asked your family how the church’s stances affect them?

    Your pastors and other members think you are wrong, and they want you to change. They will not give one inch. They will tolerate you because you show up and maybe donate and volunteer.

    Try saying no to something. Try telling them you believe their principle about _____ is actually harmful. Say why. See what happens.

    You can always stick around because of the benefits you mention, and so that the congregation has some diversity of thought. By doing so, however, you might be lending your good name and reputation to an organization that does not deserve it. Fortunately you have time to mull over a complicated decision.

  34. Friend: Literalism does not build a strong faith. It stops thought and impedes the exploration and resolution of doubt, fear, love, grief, and joy. I would venture that it impedes service, too.

    What do you mean by literalism? How does it stop/impede the things you list?

  35. Paul, you can’t change other people. I am heartened by the fact that they allow you to share different viewpoints without condemnation, now that’s unique! People will always question your commitment to the group values if your different. Try going to a liberal church and share values that you hold different from theirs and you will find out the same thing, people are people. If you enjoy the teaching, the music and the people consider staying, most of all pray as the scriptures commands. Sometimes Paul God leaves us in a place we don’t want to be to grow and it can get very uncomfortable at times, so seek His mind on this.
    Best wishes in your decision.

  36. Ken F (aka Tweed): What do you mean by literalism? How does it stop/impede the things you list?

    I should have been more clear, sorry. I think that a belief in transubstantiation is fine, but not mandatory. Faith is about meaning, not mechanics.

    Literalism is the belief that every word of the Bible is not only literally true but also a command from God. There’s no allegory or poetry. The mere human is not allowed to question. Literalism is of course not literal, because literalists also mandate which translation to read, and tell you how to apply ancient canonical texts to your life today.

    /mytwocents

  37. Loren Haas: Just leave your mess of a church behind and find another.

    You just slip out the back, Jack
    Make a new plan, Stan
    You don’t need to be coy, Roy
    Just get yourself free
    Hop on the bus, Gus
    You don’t need to discuss much
    Just drop off the key, Lee
    And get yourself free
    — Paul Simon —

  38. Friend in response to Paul K I think you may be unfair in saying that they “tolerate him because he donates and volunteers “ you don’t know their hearts. As far as changing , I listen and often I change my thoughts and hopefully theirs perhaps in our sharing. Jesus never feared questions nor even people that disagreed with him. Churches do need diversity of thought as you stated and the fact that they haven’t censured him speak volumes ( at least for now) so as you said he needs to decide what to do.

  39. There are three common ways to be led in life in the making of all the important decisions, including going to a 501c3:

    1) The most common is to follow your own intellect, heart, desires and such. We do whatever we want for whatever reasons we want to. Yet, the danger in this is: “There is a way that seems right to a man,
    But its end is the way of death.” Prov. 14:12, 16:25 This is one proverb so important that it is repeated twice.

    2) Follow the human leader, whomever you choose. Then when things inevitably go wrong, you at least have a third party to blame. The leader either gets his power from the state (politician or king) or from a religious system claiming to serve God. Authoritarian leaders of both types are everywhere and there are some in virtually every denomination, so the list here is way too small of ones to look out for.

    3) Follow the Holy Spirit for It is the One Jesus said was given to lead us believers into All Truth. This is not for the lazy, or those looking for an earthly leader, nor is it for those who prize their own rebellion over loving Jesus by doing everything that He commands. John 14:15

    To me the logical flaw in Dee’s argument is that she is suggesting that people stop doing #2 by looking at the bad fruit its producing in your life (and yes all that fruit is real and should not be ignored) and then fall back on #1: “This church sucks, lets find something I like instead.” And yet following God’s Holy Spirit is not a formula and it is not about just pleasing yourself. There are many bad churches out there who are “seeker sensitive” that serve the people’s desires instead of God’s. I left a church with the nicest pastor ever because he was serving his desire for human praise instead of doing what Jesus says to do in the N.T. He was spending more time and energy being a local celebrity doing plays, acting out roles, than actually doing what was necessary. It was all about trying to be the most liked person in the small town. Yet Jesus promises that when we follow him, many people will hate us.

    The short of this is that God’s Holy Spirit is not dead. If you are a Christian you have access to It. Do you believe that? Do you pray for guidance? Are you willing to follow It when it is telling you to do something that you, in your flesh, do not want to do? Do you want to love God back by keeping Jesus commandments? Are you willing to accept responsibility for your own decisions? Are you willing to take the pill that wakes you up to reality, but costs you a bunch as you become the pariah and enemy to others who expect you to be a lemming and a dumb sheep that follows order without question? Perhaps It will not lead you to a 501c3, but to something that God is actually building. Who says that what we call church in our own opinion is what God actually calls Church?

  40. Chuck: you may be unfair in saying that they “tolerate him because he donates and volunteers “ you don’t know their hearts.

    That is true. The atmosphere he describes, though, reminds me of my own experiences in groups that had more dogma than heart. Maybe it’s constructive for folks to walk away thinking, “Wow, I like a guy who believes in evolution!” Only Paul K (and perhaps his family) can determine whether tradeoffs are worth it.

  41. Brian,

    I don’t think at the time that anyone was aware of the spiritual abuse occurring. It took a year, and I assume more abusive behavior, for things to come to a head.

  42. You can always go to youtube. You usually have many choices. Some teachers become your favorites but most are quite helpful. Maybe Dee should start an audio or video blog?

    Linn:
    dee,

    I’m not that tech savvy either, but I can usually find a video to help me through (screen shot by screen shot). And, I’m a young Boomer, not a digital native. You could also make a video of a service and put it up on Facebook or YouTube. Our church’s first service wasn’t live because they didn’t have it all organized, but they posted a pre-taped service the next Sunday, both on the website and on Facebook.

    Zoom is also easy to use and free for up to 40 minutes. So, there are choices!

  43. The short version of our church story: We resigned from a “Bible Church” when they excommunicated our daughter for leaving an abusive marriage. We had been members there for around 10+ years.

    When we first became members there was a different pastor and different atmosphere. The pastor who was in charge of the excommunication fiasco arrived later and had trained under John MacArthur and spoke of him as a good friend. When he came he began to make changes in the church, slowly but surely.

    First, he revamped the elder board. Then they restructured the Sunday School and renamed it ABF (Adult Bible Fellowship). We had been part of a small class that functioned mostly with open discussion and we had enjoyed that. This class was terminated, as well as a class for women (taught by a woman). Instead, every class was now taught by an elder and used mandated curriculum.

    There was a lady music director at the church who had been there “forever”. She was extremely talented and well loved by everyone. However, she was removed from her position and they brought in a man to take her place. The teaching became more and more hyper-Calvinistic which made us more and more uncomfortable.

    The “home groups” became meetings to regurgitate the Sunday morning message (and maybe to see if everyone was falling in line?) They revamped the “church covenant” as well and instead of asking for new signatures, they put it up on the screen and wanted everyone to say it out loud in unison. Right with the first paragraph (talking about submission to leaders) I realized that I had better shut my mouth.

    We would not have been surprised it they had “disciplined” us as well… as they accused us of not submitting to their leadership by allowing our daughter and her children to move in with us. The good news is that they let us go. Their parting words were something to the effect of “we hope you find a church were you will respect the leaders”. Mind you, we don’t plan to ever become official church “members” anywhere again. We are “done” with that.

  44. Mary27: Their parting words were something to the effect of “we hope you find a church were you will respect the leaders”.

    Did you tell them, “we hope to find a church with leaders we can respect.”?

    The SBC church we left a couple of years ago is YRR-lite. They have not fully imbibed the kool-aid, but they have not spit it out either. I got into a yelling match with one of the elders, but he was the only one. The rest were not a problem. I got called into one of those elders meetings, but I cancelled it when they failed to tell me exactly what they wanted to talk about (the yelling elder was the only one insisting on the meeting). I am thankful we could leave without incident. We have been attending a large UMC church since then, which has been MUCH safer.

  45. Dale: I don’t think at the time that anyone was aware of the spiritual abuse occurring

    It took me quite a few years to recognize it.

  46. Samuel Conner: The focus has, it seems to me, changed from “being the people of God/of Christ in the world” to “navigating the perilous journey toward a happy afterlife.”

    I’ve been doing a lot of thinking lately on what is the point of church. For the last 2000 years Christians have found meaning in assembling. But I think you are right – the emphasis has changed. I am thinking there is value in assembling, but I cannot yet tell you what that value is. I suspect it involves practical ways of expressing love instead of doctrine. I am very guilty of stressing the doctrine side. The challenge for me is learning how to love well.

  47. Ken F (aka Tweed): Asking for help from millenials would solve the problem in a heartbeat.

    Not this millenial 🙂 Sometimes I tease my husband that I married him for his IT skills.

  48. Paul K:
    I’ve been asking myself the question: just how much anxiety can I tolerate to remain at my current church?… What makes me anxious is that despite the pastors’ gracious attitude toward me, I simply don’t believe some of the central things they believe.I’ve also found that some congregants are surprised and a little concerned if some of these issues come up in conversation and I share some of my views… This lack of curiosity and desire for education also makes me anxious.
    What I’ve found is that all these issues come back to what people believe about the Bible and how to read it.If I share a different view, people tend to question my commitment to scripture.
    Despite these things, I find that these issues are not presented as first-order issues in the preaching and day-to-day life even if they are underlining assumptions in most congregants’ minds.And I respect the right of the pastors and congregants to believe things that are different than what I believe.I mostly like my church.I find the people loving and welcoming (even after they find out the different stance I have on some issues), I enjoy serving there, and I’ve made friends there.I also really like the expository preaching, which is a little hard to come by.
    So, how much anxiety can I tolerate?Thoughts?

    I feel in somewhat of the same boat. Once shelter-in-place is lifted, we are planning to try out a different Sunday school class, in the hopes that this helps. I’ve found that the class we’re currently slotted into (parents of young children) feeds into my anxiety, while the women’s Bible study I’m in (all mothers, but of different aged children and variety of working or stay-at-home) seems more even-keeled on the whole.

    Sometimes I struggle with feeling like a missionary (for lack of a better word) in my own church. I see people living with burdens of legalism or shame or fear and want to help. Sometimes I see it actively taught by lay leaders. A friend confided thanks to me recently for speaking up in Sunday school. But it gets tiring after a while. I respect that people can make their own decisions, and if they choose to live with legalism, that’s no skin off my back. But I’d at least like to show that a different way exists and can be “Biblical,” for those who are wanting out but stuck.

    Where is the balance?

  49. Ken F (aka Tweed): The challenge for me is learning how to love well.

    As it is for us all; the present crisis is an opportunity to grow in this area, and it may be an existential matter for some of our neighbors who may be in need of help.

    But let us be properly cautious as we go about helping the vulnerable; if we fall ill our utility to them will be diminished.

    —–

    On an almost unrelated note, you are well aware of the ways that some of the strands of theology that emerged from the Reformation have regarded God’s governance of the world, and particularly His common goodness toward all, to be intended for the good of the elect, with the overflow of goodness toward others being an incidental (and I think in the view of some, regrettable) side effect. The rain falls on the crops of unrighteous as well as on the crops of the righteous.

    I wonder what those who see (or who want to see) a narrow vision of God’s goodness toward the creation are making, right now, of this calamity that is experienced by all, and that, if anything, is falling harder on those who seek to love their neighbors rather than simply protect themselves.

  50. Yes, the emphasis for church life HAS changed, and especially, the role of the pastor. First, the title itself. There was a time that the pastor was the “Pastor.” It did not matter if there were no other staff members or 100, the “Pastor” was the spiritual leader of the church. The “Senior Pastor” phenomena had yet to appear. In my last pastorate I was the “Senior Pastor” but that reflected nothing about my power or control, it simply meant I was the staff leader.

    Second change: the ROLE of the pastor. Today there is an emphasis on preaching as the main pastoral role. Around Nashville I see churches with signs up about the pastor’s sermon series and their newsletters are consumed with why their sermons are so important. So many pastors today no longer provide pastoral care: fewer and fewer visit the sick in the hospitals, nursing homes, or their shut-in members. I am aware of a few pastors that do not perform funerals and their churches called them with that knowledge. Historically pastors were thought of as loving shepherds who earned the right to proclaim the gospel to their congregations because they took such good care of the flock. No more. The meaning is the message and the message is all that matters today.

    Third change: sermons ALWAYS have a doctrinal purpose: to influence parishioners to think as the pastor thinks. Where a sermon formerly was preached as a means to lead to hope to inspire, comfort, uplift, or meet a perceived need in the congregation, today pastors are preaching to enforce doctrinal purity. “What I say is what you ought to think.” A local congregation that is on TV is an interesting example. The pastor expends every newsletter expounding on the importance of his sermons, his series of sermons, and exactly what he is trying to accomplish in his messages. The church is not Neo-Cal, but he is working as hard as he can to move it in that direction. Most every sermon quotes a Neo-Cal “star”: Piper, et al, but the church does not notice. The week after a tornado devastated Nashville, one would think that the sermon would be to offer hope and care from a terrible tragedy, but no. While the pastor acknowledged the tornado and the pain, his planned sermon of the week was more important than anything else.

    I left the pastorate in 2000 for a denominational position and closed my ministry in that role before moving into counseling. The pastorate: the role, meaning, and work of the pastor has changed, and in my opinion, not for the better.

  51. Luckyforward: So many pastors today no longer provide pastoral care: fewer and fewer visit the sick in the hospitals, nursing homes, or their shut-in members … do not perform funerals … the message is all that matters today …

    Then I have a message for them … they are not pastors!

    Luckyforward: The week after a tornado devastated Nashville, one would think that the sermon would be to offer hope and care from a terrible tragedy, but no. While the pastor acknowledged the tornado and the pain, his planned sermon of the week was more important than anything else.

    And where was God?! He certainly wasn’t listening to that sermon – God doesn’t have time for ministry negligence. Instead, He was working through His people to minister to the hurting masses impacted by the tornado – who chose to skip church and love their neighbors.

  52. Max: He was working through His people to minister to the hurting masses impacted by the tornado – who chose to skip church and love their neighbors.

    That’s really it in a nutshell, Max. As Teresa of Avila wrote, “God has no hands but our hands.”

  53. Paul K: I find that these issues are not presented as first-order issues in the preaching and day-to-day life even if they are underlining assumptions in most congregants’ minds. And I respect the right of the pastors and congregants to believe things that are different than what I believe. I mostly like my church. I find the people loving and welcoming (even after they find out the different stance I have on some issues), I enjoy serving there, and I’ve made friends there. I also really like the expository preaching, which is a little hard to come by.
    So, how much anxiety can I tolerate? Thoughts?

    Even complementarianism? Let me ask you, how would a single woman be treated at your church? Or a woman who wants to lead a class?

    I have friends who go to a church very much like yours. I know the pastor and most of the elders fairly well and I believe they are not deceptive or trying to keep people from learning other points of view. They were members of Acts 29, but left after the teaching started going really off the rails. They also have a process where 10 members can remove any elder.

    However, when push comes to shove, a single woman is not treated well at their church. Married women are treated a lot better, but never as well as any man. A single man would be treated quite well. Married men have lots of power.

    Most evangelical men never realize how much complementarianism hurts women. They’d never accept that kind of treatment themselves. Constantly pushed down, told to be quiet, told to step back, told to do the chores that they themselves don’t want to do. I see it in the marriages of my friends who both claim to believe it–the hurt, the anger, the futility. Add the misconception that licensed counseling is anti-God and they never get out of it.

  54. Chuck,

    Thanks! Even though there are many things I find unsettling and anxiety-producing about the YRR movement and “New Calvinists”, I think there are many people in these areas of the church who are believers doing the best they can (which many times is pretty good) and have found themselves in those traditions because they sincerely believe (and have arguments for) their convictions. I don’t want to demonize believers I have more in common with than I have differences.

  55. Wild Honey,

    When my state issued a stay-at-home order, I was kind of relieved that I would have a break from church that would go unnoticed. From everything I’ve read and experienced, simply taking a break can be extremely helpful in sorting through the anxiety a person may be feeling about a certain group.
    I wish I knew exactly what the balance is. I don’t believe anything abusive or underhanded is happening to me in the church; in fact, I’ve really been treated well. It just comes down to having different beliefs and feeling increasingly isolated for having those beliefs even though I don’t believe those feelings of isolation and anxiety are due to any kind of concerted effort to make me feel this way. I think it would be ridiculous of me to expect any sudden or quick (1-2 years) change related to the issues I mentioned. Also, do I need everyone in the church I attend to believe everything I believe? That sounds like a dystopian nightmare. Part of me just wants to remain, keep my views to myself as much as possible, and just try to serve well. On the other hand, being able to serve well may be an issue considering some of my beliefs – people may view me with suspicion.

  56. Mary27,

    –“.. they excommunicated our daughter for leaving an abusive marriage.

    –(classes terminated) “Instead, every class was now taught by an elder and used mandated curriculum.”

    –(extremely talented and beloved lady music director) “she was removed from her position and they brought in a man to take her place.”

    –“The “home groups” became meetings to regurgitate the Sunday morning message”

    –(revamped church covenant) “they put it up on the screen and wanted everyone to say it out loud in unison. Right with the first paragraph (talking about submission to leaders)”

    –“we hope you find a church were you will respect the leaders”.
    ——————–

    These are among the absolute stupidest things i’ve ever heard about church.

    if you had articulated everything on your mind to this pastor, and then stood there tall and proud, hands on your hips, looking him straight in the eye with your gazer beam, totally disregarding the pastor’s imaginary authority,

    aside from turning it to lukewarm water trickling away, what would have happened?

    i’m so happy for you that you’re out and free.

  57. ishy,

    I think you have a very legitimate point regarding complementarianism. I can’t think of a single young woman in our church. We used to have one and she left. Our church is somewhere in the 150-200 person mark, so to not have any young single women is kind of odd. There’d almost be nothing for them there.
    I do think the type of traditionalism in women’s roles found in the CBM&W-crowd is wrong and because it’s wrong, it’s harmful. This is a concern for me. It probably causes me the most anxiety. However, I have not personally witnessed or heard of women being explicitly or boldly mistreated because of this perspective (though I understand that exclusion from leadership is mistreatment). Thanks for reminding me of this.
    I may very well share your concerns about the Biblical Counseling movement as well; some of that crowd’s aversion to psychology reminds me of Scientology.

  58. Paul K: However, I have not personally witnessed or heard of women being explicitly or boldly mistreated because of this perspective (though I understand that exclusion from leadership is mistreatment). Thanks for reminding me of this.
    I may very well share your concerns about the Biblical Counseling movement as well; some of that crowd’s aversion to psychology reminds me of Scientology.

    Thanks for listening to me. A lot of my former evangelical/New Cal friends won’t even consider thinking about it, probably because they are afraid it would upend their entire worldview. One of my other friends has been trying to get her husband to leave their church, and he refuses to listen to her even though she’s miserable there. She said her kids have also noticed how bad it is. That church is way at the end of the spectrum, too, and he keeps ignoring the insane stuff that happens there.

    The counseling aversion existed before the New Cal movement, so I’m not entirely sure where it originated. IMB/NAMB wouldn’t send anyone who had been to counseling since at least the 80s. But I’ll be honest, I’ve never met anyone who was “biblically counseled” who still didn’t have the same issues they’ve always had. Usually they just had the added issue of being in denial of their other issues.

  59. ishy: However, when push comes to shove, a single woman is not treated well at their church. Married women are treated a lot better, but never as well as any man. A single man would be treated quite well. Married men have lots of power.
    Most evangelical men never realize how much complementarianism hurts women. They’d never accept that kind of treatment themselves. Constantly pushed down, told to be quiet, told to step back, told to do the chores that they themselves don’t want to do. I see it in the marriages of my friends who both claim to believe it–the hurt, the anger, the futility. Add the misconception that licensed counseling is anti-God and they never get out of it.

    And here is where I am ………….. a married woman, in a rural area that is “blessed” with a plethora of complementarian churches, mostly SBC. It does hurt, and most men can’t see the hurt. The ones who do believe the women have just been misled —- Just don’t understand how good we’ve got it.
    This is why I haven’t attended church in over 4 years ……. “Fellowship” does not refresh my soul – it sucks my soul dry.
    And, yes, married men have lots of power …. but I wonder how many wives know how easy it it to undercut that power???
    How well a married woman is treated often depends on her husband’s reputation and charisma.
    Single women? Yep. There are two single 40+ women at our church. All I heard when I’m around them is talk about finding a man or failing to find a man.
    I.can’t.any.more.

  60. I will also add that some of the WORST mistreatment I ever received in complementarian churches was from other women in the church. Either it was from married women who believed that they had some sort of upper place in the hierarchy because of who they were married to, or it was from single women competing for the few decent single men.

    I have noticed that in many New Cal churches, single men way outnumber single women. My friend at Grace Community says they have tons of single men. That’s a huge reverse from other churches, which is interesting. I wish someone would do a study on that.

  61. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I wonder how many wives know how easy it it to undercut that power???

    I don’t see that as much in the New Cal churches, but it was definitely common in traditional Baptist churches. The New Cal men are all about sticking together and not allowing women any leeway. They also tend to bait single men with a bit of that power to keep them following like sheep.

    Of course, they also have a theology that basically states women are not entirely human, which strangely sounds just like the same theology that the SBC was founded on…

  62. Paul K: I may very well share your concerns about the Biblical Counseling movement as well; some of that crowd’s aversion to psychology reminds me of Scientology.

    You are not the only one to point out the parallels.

  63. Friend: Literalism is the belief that every word of the Bible is not only literally true but also a command from God. There’s no allegory or poetry. The mere human is not allowed to question.

    I call that “Bible ees Party Line, Comrade.”

  64. Max: “Lead Actor” would be more appropriate, since these folks do very little leading of the flock in the way they should go; they prefer to strut about on stage rather than doing the work of the ministry.

    And we all know the Koine Greek word for “Actor”, don’t we?

  65. Ava Aaronson: So much branding, so many disguises… hard to keep straight. Just when it’s all down on paper, someone maneuvers by changing the label, and window-dressing the same old schtick.

    ChEKA rebrands itself as OGPU which rebrands itself as NKVD which rebrands itself as KGB…
    And no matter what brand, liquidation quotas in GULAG are met and surpassed without interruption.

  66. ishy: dispensational eschatology

    Does anyone anywhere believe or even suspect that Jesus used the term “dispensational eschatology”???

    A church expelling a member because of a lack of dispensational eschatology? Really?

    I don’t think so… on the other hand, I believe the writer, so it is probably so. Still, it’s not in the Bible I have on the shelf at hand!

  67. Paul K: do I need everyone in the church I attend to believe everything I believe?

    No, of course not. The problem crops up when a church has a gigantic checklist of approved beliefs and customs. You’re “not a real Christian” if you believe X, Y, or Z.

    A lot of churches allow and promote a wide range of viewpoints. I’m sure my church has people who believe in the Virgin Birth and people who don’t. But it’s just not an issue. When topics like that come up, it’s really interesting to hear what other people have to say. There is so much beautiful variety in the beliefs we hold precious.

  68. (Long ramble/rant warning…….)

    There is a church not very far from my house …….. we used to be members there ……… an SBC Missionary Baptist church?…………… the man who was pastor there left about 6 years ago…….
    Keep in mind that I have known most of the members/former members there either all of my life or all of their lives. People whose children I went to school with as well as people I went to school with for 12 years….. People I played basketball, ran track, played softball, and rode for hours on school buses with ………. Some, distant kin. I know all of the deacons very well, their parents, their children, their grandchildren……….
    I just can’t figure out what is going on at that church ………. I had seriously considered returning to that church alone. But, after hearing what I’ve heard ……. it’s out of the question.

    A lot of people have left that church. One lifelong friend of mind is driving 35 miles to another church. All I had heard is that things had changes, and they just weren’t comfortable ther anymore.

    The pastor there now is a strange character. I don’t know him personally, but I do know a lot of his kinfolk – (I dated one of his cousins, for pete’s sake! ). I just can’t figure out why he is the way he is.

    When I was ar the hospital the other day, I bumped into another friend and her mother (also a friend). who had left that church. She filled me in on some of the nitty-gritties between this pastor and her family.
    One of my friend’s children has mild Asperger’s syndrome. (The child was in the mid-teen years when pastor poked his now in – child is currently a freshman at U of L)

    When pastor found out child has Asperger’s, he decided that this family needed his “help”. He came over to see that the child was “being properly cared for” and ordered friend to send child away to a special school with trained counselors. When friend said no, pastor said he would call social services ……. she said, “Fine! Do what you’ve gotta do!” ( Note, friend works for social services. Pastor did not know that.)

    Pastor set up a fake inspection with a retired Soc. See. person and another friend. Friend knew it was fake, but she let them “inspect” the home, quite thoroughly, all the way down to the trash cans. Friend’s child followed inspectors around, taking multiple photos with IPhone. After they left, child posted the photos on Facebook!

    When pastor learned of photos, he returned and ordered child to remove photos from Facebook. Friend stepped in and told pastor no, photos stay up.

    A few days later, pastor returns again ……….???……….. Told friend that her husband was not good for her and ordered her to file for divorce.

    Can anybody out there in TWW land tell me what is up with this?
    As I have said, I know these deacons. I can’t understand why they haven’t sent this pastor packing!

  69. J R in WV: I don’t think so… on the other hand, I believe the writer, so it is probably so. Still, it’s not in the Bible I have on the shelf at hand!

    I wasn’t the person who wrote that, but I’ve seen people kicked out of church for their daughter’s hemline being two-inches too short in the opinion of the pastor, so there are dumber things people have been excommunicated for.

  70. @mike on not putting services up. She also might not have the technical equipment such as a mike and a camera (many newer laptops have those built in but she might not have a newer laptop) or a reasonably good internet connection. She could use a combo of phone and computer and Zoom but that can be a bit intimidating. Perhaps she might find it easier to try a more casual Zoom meeting first with maybe one of the more tech savvy congregants hosting rather than her.

    I do know the local small ELCA church near me is doing online services, but, it helps that several of the congregants are very tech savvy and this is Silicon Valley. The main issue seems to be the trouble of getting some of the older congregants linked in. The local UU church is also doing online services (two plus a Sunday school for children following the services though they are very careful about handing out the link for the last). And the local Quakers are also going to try this weekend though as they are unprogrammed most of the meeting is likely to be silent.

  71. J R in WV: A church expelling a member because of a lack of dispensational eschatology? Really?

    Actually, depending the precise contours of the expelled person’s views, I can envision this possibility. There are some views that are so deeply troubling to DE-ists that

    A prime example would be Preterism.

    A less, but still very, threatening view would be current trends in New Testament scholarship that seek to understand Jesus’ prophetic public ministry in the context of Israel’s historical situation and the catastrophic war with Rome that occurred within a generation of the conclusion of that ministry.

    Oddly, both views are very compatible with an extremely high view of Scripture, but that is no comfort to many people of DE persuasion; such views undermine traditional understandings of what the NT narratives mean for present-day followers of YHWH.

    My own views are on this spectrum, and I simply don’t “go there” when interacting with friends who are of DE persuasion. It would be simply too troubling to them.

  72. Oops — always complete a thought before moving to the next …

    Samuel Conner: There are some views that are so deeply troubling to DE-ists that

    they are, from the inside of the DE point of view, hard to distinguish from “denial of the Scriptures.”

    It’s an artefact of the strength of the traditional interpretations

  73. Paul K: I have not personally witnessed or heard of women being explicitly or boldly mistreated because of this perspective (though I understand that exclusion from leadership is mistreatment).

    Your church sounds similar to our old church. Everything was fine…and everything that wasn’t fine was tolerable because we were deeply embedded in the culture of the church. We had spent 17 yrs there and had witnessed the emphasis shift away from the love of Jesus toward the “doctrines of grace”. The tone from the pulpit had shifted, the constitution had changed, and what I (a female worship leader) was allowed to say while leading music was occasionally up for discussion (not with me in the room, though…they would talk to my husband who would then report to me). But none of this was worth leaving our “church family” over. But because we didn’t leave, we entrenched ourselves and our children even longer in a sick system…one with no real accountability, so it got sicker by the month. So, when the day came for a true crisis to hit the church, the elders’ response was spectacularly awful, and their response to dissenting female voices showed just what they truly believed about women. It didn’t matter how respectful my tone, how legitimate my biblical reasoning, how serious my pleas to tell the truth, they dismissed me and eventually disparaged me. They even emailed the deacon board, telling them to get their wives in line (I’m not exaggerating). The crisis I was asking the elders to address? The discovery that one of them was a convicted child molester.

    Of course, I’m not saying that your leaders would respond similarly. But in that theological system, they are very likely already dismissing women’s voices. And should a crisis occur which they see as an existential threat to the church, they will very likely live out their gender theology in harmful ways.

  74. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Can anybody out there in TWW land tell me what is up with this?

    A pastor who impersonates government authorities and conducts sham inspections of a member’s home is a genuine hazard to the community. And… ordering someone to divorce? Isn’t that against the church’s own rules?

    The pastor could have a mental illness. His actions remind me of Word of Faith Fellowship in Spindale, NC, where Jane Whaley has been accused of shocking levels of abuse against members.

    It’s good that people are leaving that church. My hero in the story is the young man with Asperger’s who posted “inspection” photos. Good for him!

  75. Erp: And the local Quakers are also going to try this weekend though as they are unprogrammed most of the meeting is likely to be silent.

    As one who attended Friends meetings for a very long time, I find this delightful. 🙂

  76. ishy: I have noticed that in many New Cal churches, single men way outnumber single women. My friend at Grace Community says they have tons of single men. That’s a huge reverse from other churches, which is interesting. I wish someone would do a study on that.

    Perhaps the word is getting out that New Calvinism is not a spiritually healthy place for women to be … whether they be single or married.

  77. Whistleblower4Jesus,

    Another thing that makes me anxious is “no real accountability”. Our pastors do not have an elder board over them nor is there a mechanism to remove any one of them from the church. We have three pastors accountable only to themselves and the other two pastors.

  78. Loren Haas: My wife and I were involved in a Calvary Chapel church full of lovely people, great music and lively teaching.

    I languished for nearly two decades in the Calvary Chapel cult.
    It’s a very authoritarian and pastor-centric regime; not at all unlike even the most dictatorial neo-cal outfits.

  79. Paul K: So, how much anxiety can I tolerate? Thoughts?

    Well, they haven’t put you on the rack or the strappado (metaphorically) for harboring different views, so that’s a good thing.
    So if the pluses outweigh the minuses, stay where you’re at.

  80. Paul K: Another thing that makes me anxious is “no real accountability”. Our pastors do not have an elder board over them nor is there a mechanism to remove any one of them from the church. We have three pastors accountable only to themselves and the other two pastors.

    That is a legitimate concern. We had a congregation of about 80, with 5 elders (2 paid, 3 unpaid). We had a deacon board, too, but they were told in no uncertain terms that their job was to stick to the budget and visit sick people…not provide elder accountability. The idea was the that the elders were keeping each other accountable. But instead, they bickered, hid their problems from the church, and stealth-preached at each other in sermons. But they found unity when it came to covering up the criminal record of one of them. And the only mechanism for congregational accountability of the elders involved petitions and votes…but half the congregation was related to the 5 elders, so it was a setup destined for failure. This was an SBC church, and the local association director said he would only get involved if the elders invited him to get involved (and obviously the elders trying to cover things up were not interested in bringing in outside people). So it was a mess.

  81. Friend: Literalism is the belief that every word of the Bible is not only literally true but also a command from God. There’s no allegory or poetry. The mere human is not allowed to question. Literalism is of course not literal, because literalists also mandate which translation to read, and tell you how to apply ancient canonical texts to your life today.

    /mytwocents

    Fair enough, and it’s a good two cents.
    Here’s my farthing:
    I hold views of Scripture that raise the hackles of conservative believers, and at the same time, I harbor sentiments that rankle the hell outta’ devout progressives.
    Whether it’s literalism or non, I’m all over the map.

  82. elastigirl: if you had articulated everything on your mind to this pastor, and then stood there tall and proud, hands on your hips, looking him straight in the eye with your gazer beam, totally disregarding the pastor’s imaginary authority,

    aside from turning it to lukewarm water trickling away, what would have happened?

    Well, my daughter did stand up to them and defied their authority (when they told her to submit to them and return to her abusive husband). She was not in a good place emotionally at that time and I had been worried that she would “cave” to the (extreme) pressure… so I was very proud of her for looking them in the eye and saying “no”. But the excommunication did totally destroy her friendships in the church and she is a “done” in no uncertain terms.

    In a later meeting my husband and I had with church leaders they allowed us to explain our thinking… but when my husband was done with his (very good and “biblical”) explanation of our daughter’s situation, they cleared their throats and said, “Now what about you and your relationship to the church leaders…?” Before the guy even finished his sentence, my husband had pulled our resignation letter out of his shirt pocket. They were shocked. They thought they had us over a barrel because they supported our missionary ministry financially and they apparently thought we’d sacrifice our daughter for $$$.

  83. Friend,

    Not a young man with Asperger’s, but a young lady …….. a smart little powerhouse, much like her mama!
    Divorce??? Yeah, I asked friend if they were sure the man is a baptist! For baptists, it’s work it out, suck it up, take a beating …….. but thou shalt not divorce!

  84. Mary27: They thought they had us over a barrel because they supported our missionary ministry financially and they apparently thought we’d sacrifice our daughter for $$$.

    I’ve long believed that the Almighty has a special affinity for those who can’t be bought for money.

  85. Beakerj: Impersonating Social Services is a crime, surely? As well as being as deceitful as it comes.

    Yes, but friend decided not to chase that rabbit. I think it was a smart move on her part. Those Facebook posts will rain down more of a punishment on pastor than the law ever could. If friend had pressed charges, Facebook posts, more than likely, would have had to have been deleted by court order.

  86. Samuel Conner: The churches ought to be communities of mutual aid in the midst of this crisis, more “bottom up” than “top down”. It’s almost as if the changes that the neocals have been implementing in recent decades have diminished the capabilities for “in the common interest” action. It’s not hard to see parallel developments in other areas of society and governance.

    Is this not how ‘if possible, even the very elect’ can be deceived about what is going on in the world, or what to expect when Jesus returns?

  87. Whistleblower4Jesus,

    Went through a very similar church experience. And, yes, all those calling out the pastor were women – elders’ wives to be exact; women who firmly supported him, were close friends with his wife, etc. But when it came to the safety of their family and others, most women draw the line. All were dismissed, disparaged and, eventually, driven from the church.

    It all seems ‘fine’ – until a situation arises in which one or more persons challenges the words, actions or decisions of the pastor and his controlled elders. Then, watch their ‘servant leadership’ in action as they step on any and all who might threaten their cabal. Btw, all but one of the elders an deacons from the church’s beginning 15 years ago (including us) have left that church, along with nearly every other member. It is constant turnover, as most eventually see it is not a healthy place for them or their families.

  88. Paul K,

    The lack of accountability is dangerous. To be sure, even having elders provides no guaranteed accountability; a clever, narcissistic pastor knows exactly how to manipulate his elders, even to the point of coming between them and their spouses. They have no idea that he is planting thoughts in their minds, and truly see themselves as holding him accountable.

  89. Paul K:
    Whistleblower4Jesus,

    Another thing that makes me anxious is “no real accountability”.Our pastors do not have an elder board over them nor is there a mechanism to remove any one of them from the church.We have three pastors accountable only to themselves and the other two pastors.

    That would make me nervous, two. Our last two churches were like this, and our experiences did not end well.

    And my experiences echo those of Whistleblower, though not as extreme. It was a more moderate complemenarian church, where even my “soft” complementarian husband picked up on troubling nuances, but we stuck around for the sake of community and the other aspects of doctrine that we agreed with.

    The fun part came when leadership asked for feedback about a building they wanted to purchase. I submitted feedback that was mostly, but not completely, positive. When an elder, without warning and in front of my husband and children, accused me of “not being able to submit” and having “possibly aggressive” feedback, and became extremely defensive when he realized my husband was actually on my side (imagine that), we were done.

  90. ishy,

    Ishy, did you see this New York Times article about students returning to Liberty despite the pandemic, and then leaving again? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/us/politics/coronavirus-liberty-university-falwell.html

    I’ve talked with a great many college students and their parents in the past few weeks. Nobody in our circle has described anything like this level of confusion at other colleges. (Early on, some other colleges did botch what were essentially evacuations, and many are having issues with refunds.)

  91. TS00,

    I realize there really is no protection against narcissism in the church except emotionally and spiritually healthy Christians (I got that from Chuck DeGroat). I don’t see narcissistic behavior or beliefs in the pastors of our church. The biggest problem I think I see resulting from the lack of accountability is an unhealthy work load placed on the pastors as well as certain responsibilities simply not being attended to in the way they should. I’d hope a larger group of elders or pastors might identify some of these shortcomings and help find solutions that benefit everyone. I could see pastor burnout being a problem that might lead to more problems. But if our pastors don’t see it, or are taught that they’re supposed to be the people doing everything, who’s going to tell them otherwise?

  92. Friend: Ishy, did you see this New York Times article about students returning to Liberty despite the pandemic, and then leaving again? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/us/politics/coronavirus-liberty-university-falwell.html

    Yes, I shared another one with dee on Twitter a few days ago.

    There are a lot of students on Twitter that are saying they are working on transferring away. I don’t blame them. This all just confirmed what an idiot Junior truly is.

  93. Paul K,

    “However, I have not personally witnessed or heard of women being explicitly or boldly mistreated because of this perspective (though I understand that exclusion from leadership is mistreatment).”
    ++++++++++++++

    bold or explicit… it’s the little things that hurt and communicate loudly (when you’re on the receiving end, that is)

    denied eye contact (their head goes down to the floor instead)
    husband verbally greeted but not me
    husband extended a hand in greeting but not me
    treated as invisible
    being physically blocked — i matter so little that they pretend i’m not even there
    no response to what i’ve said (as if i had said nothing)
    having my ideas/input ignored or passed over always in favor of a man’s idea/input

    thankfully, i don’t have to deal with this anymore. i’m out in the evil worldly world and am treated with respect, decency, affirmation, and value by men and women.

  94. Paul K,

    I hope my responses shed some light on your situation. We are all just trying to help out, not urge you to take any particular action. (There’s no “get out NOW” sign, at least not from what I read in your descriptions.)

  95. elastigirl,

    A sermon that extols Abraham’s faith in the birth of Isaac while completely ignoring Sarah’s contributions (because being pregnant for nine months post menopause and surviving childbirth requires a lot less faith than the act it took to get there, apparently). And that places 100% of the blame for the conception of Ishmael at Sarah’s feet (because clearly she was the one who impregnated Hagar).

  96. So apparently your quarantine name is the last thing you ate plus the author of the book you are reading. So am I Baked Beans God, Baked Beans Paul…?

  97. elastigirl:
    denied eye contact (their head goes down to the floor instead)
    husband verbally greeted but not me
    husband extended a hand in greeting but not me
    treated as invisible
    being physically blocked — i matter so little that they pretend i’m not even there
    no response to what i’ve said (as if i had said nothing)
    having my ideas/input ignored or passed over always in favor of a man’s idea/input

    Been there…… lived that. Never again.
    It would have been easier if someone had just slapped me every time I walked through the doors – at least I would have had an excuse, as well as an equivalent way to strike back!

  98. ishy: There are a lot of students on Twitter that are saying they are working on transferring away. I don’t blame them. This all just confirmed what an idiot Junior truly is.

    What an eye opener (the link).
    I swear, Xi Jinping (China), he-who-must-not-be-named, and Falwell are all cut from the same cloth.

  99. elastigirl: bold or explicit… it’s the little things that hurt and communicate loudly (when you’re on the receiving end, that is)

    And as someone who never felt any serious or even much minor mistreatment while attending churches, being at one where women are not excluded or restricted in any way is just such a massive breath of fresh air! I couldn’t believe what a difference it makes. I am never going back.

  100. Paul K: an unhealthy work load placed on the pastors

    You must not be in a New Calvinist church. The YRR pastors in my area are a lazy bunch; they delegate everything out that looks like ministry. They preach one sermon per week, don’t visit the sick, don’t go to nursing homes, don’t preach funerals … but they find plenty of time to tweet their lives away at local coffee shops.

  101. Max: You must not be in a New Calvinist church.The YRR pastors in my area are a lazy bunch; they delegate everything out that looks like ministry.They preach one sermon per week, don’t visit the sick, don’t go to nursing homes, don’t preach funerals … but they find plenty of time to tweet their lives away at local coffee shops.

    Respectfully, my experience volunteering briefly as an administrative assistant for a YRR pastor echoes more of Paul K’s observation about unrealistic workloads, with the caveat that a large part of the workload (at least from my viewpoint) seemed self-imposed. There was an element of perfectionism (I am also a recovering perfectionist, I say this as an observation, not a judgment) and micro-managing that meant a lot of his time was spent on minutiae about how the church was decorated, for example. There was also a lack of healthy boundaries with recognizing physical limits to what a person can be expected to accomplish in a day/week, that I saw echoed at the next YRR church we went to.

    So, they are very busy, Max, just not necessarily on the “right” things.

    Which, now that I think it through, is exactly what you just said. So, never mind, I agree with you 🙂

  102. Max,

    My church is definitely YRR, but I don’t think the pastors are lazy. My wish is that they’d delegate more often; the members of our congregation are extremely capable and competent people as a rule. Of course, I’ve actually wondered how they spend their time – with no accountability or boss it’s impossible to say really. And by “boss”, I don’t mean a micro-managing nuisance. I’ve had some great bosses in my life that have kept me focused and effective.

  103. Paul K:
    Max,

    My wish is that they’d delegate more often; the members of our congregation are extremely capable and competent people as a rule.Of course, I’ve actually wondered how they spend their time – with no accountability or boss it’s impossible to say really.And by “boss”, I don’t mean a micro-managing nuisance.I’ve had some great bosses in my life that have kept me focused and effective.

    YES. This describes what I witnessed in my description above.

  104. Wild Honey: Respectfully, my experience volunteering briefly as an administrative assistant for a YRR pastor echoes more of Paul K’s observation about unrealistic workloads, with the caveat that a large part of the workload (at least from my viewpoint) seemed self-imposed. There was an element of perfectionism (I am also a recovering perfectionist, I say this as an observation, not a judgment) and micro-managing that meant a lot of his time was spent on minutiae about how the church was decorated, for example.

    I’ve seen some of both in New Cal churches, but usually there’s at least one extreme micromanager on staff with a few lazy ones. I’ve also seen churches where 90% of the work was on a few poorly paid hourly staff members, along with unpaid seminary interns and family members who were expect to work for free. Wives were often on staff and paid, though.

    Many of my classmates planned to buy or steal sermons instead of write their own, so I think that is fairly common in New Cal churches now. I’ve attended a few Baptist churches where I knew the sermons were purchased (could easily find them online) or that the pastor recycled the same sermon series they wrote in seminary over and over and just gave them new titles. I have never been to a church where a pastor has openly acknowledged they were buying or stealing sermons.

    I honestly would not have that much trouble with recycled sermons if they were legitimately purchased, routinely acknowledged, AND the pastor was using the extra time to visit the sick and work in other ministries. But no, in all those churches where I knew the sermons were recycled, the pastor talked often about how hard he worked on sermons all week.

  105. Max: The YRR pastors in my area are a lazy bunch; they delegate everything out that looks like ministry. They preach one sermon per week, don’t visit the sick, don’t go to nursing homes, don’t preach funerals … but they find plenty of time to tweet their lives away at local coffee shops.

    At least until the COVID-19 lockdowns shut down the Starbucks.
    What will they do? What will they do?

  106. Friend: Ishy, did you see this New York Times article about students returning to Liberty despite the pandemic, and then leaving again? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/us/politics/coronavirus-liberty-university-falwell.html

    And JFJr has reacted:
    https://thewayofimprovement.com/2020/03/29/falwell-jr-says-the-new-york-times-story-on-coronavirus-at-liberty-university-is-false/

    JFJr has shown once again the type of man he is.
    The type of man who cannot be trusted.

  107. We are living in weird times:

    Pastor Rodney Howard Browne Who Refused to Close His Church Down During Covid 19 Pandemic Has Arrest Warrant Issued – He Was Also Promising Church Members that God Would Supernaturally Increase Their Supply of Toilet Paper
    https://missdaisyflower.wordpress.com/2020/03/30/pastor-rodney-howard-browne-who-refused-to-close-his-church-down-during-covid-19-pandemic-has-arrest-warrant-issued-he-was-also-promising-church-members-that-god-would-supernaturally-increase-their/

    (I just updated that post to reflect new headlines I’ve seen in the past hour that he’s already been arrested.)

  108. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Oh, the beaches are crowded there, too. Clearwater was on the national news for all the spring breakers. I’m glad the university cancelled classes, or it’d be much worse here, and it’s pretty bad.

  109. Dee, I am joining the prayers of many for your daughter, and for you!!

    Amen to this! “Let me give you a clue. If you pastor doesn’t care enough to put himself out to do a sermon online during this time, it’s probably time to rethink the paradigm.” I think these guys should stop drawing their good salaries and benefits until they actually provide the spiritual support they were contracted to give. No sermons, no worship service, no time spent in prayer and preparation of all the parts, including the technology and logistics – THEN – NO PAY FOR YOU, if you have turned away from your congregation in this critical time of need.

    My dear church and Pastors have been such good stewards of time and resources, and have been providing weekly services, Bible Studies, virtual fellowships, as the needs have unfolded. Additionally, I have “attended” some of my friends’ churches all across the country. Oh, how I would have loved to have had this option during times of surgeries and lenghty home-stays. My church is concerned (as many of yours) for those who don’t have the electronics and technology in their homes. So, we are calling, connecting, and letting them know they are not alone, and that we will always be just a call away.

    Dee, I hope you feel the prayers of so many.

    By the way, I am sure you saw this month’s Guidepost Magazine STORIES OF HOPE
    Rachael Denhollander: Empowered by Her Faith
    After years of silence, she found the courage to testify…

  110. ishy: Many of my classmates planned to buy or steal sermons instead of write their own, so I think that is fairly common in New Cal churches now. I’ve attended a few Baptist churches where I knew the sermons were purchased (could easily find them online) or that the pastor recycled the same sermon series they wrote in seminary over and over and just gave them new titles.

    Seriously? I believe you. I simply cannot fathom.

    May I ask, out of simple curiosity, how did you figure out that the sermons were purchased and/or recycled?

  111. Wild Honey: May I ask, out of simple curiosity, how did you figure out that the sermons were purchased and/or recycled?

    They were extremely familiar, so I looked them up. One was a Bill Hybels sermon and the other was an Andy Stanley sermon. I’m pretty sure I had heard other people preach them before, too. Or maybe I heard them on TV, but definitely had a deja vu sorta feeling. But I had also just come from a church where the pastor preached the same sermons every two years, and after a number of years of attending there, I just had to compare my notes to figure that out. I’m pretty sure that pastor just recycled his own sermons. He also made a point of refusing to do any outside ministry. And his sermons were not that good to begin with. It was one of the reasons I left.

    Both of those pastors allow their sermons to be preached by others, but I doubt they want pastors taking their sermons and claiming them as their own. And since both of the preaching pastors mentioned how hard they worked on it, it was almost as if they felt guilty or something.

    Several of my classmates were paid by sermon services companies to hand out flyers, so it was a regular topic on campus. Dr. Robinson, the preaching professor, was loudly against using the sermons of others and I think spoke on it more because he knew those flyers were being handed out.

    There’s stuff like this on pastor resource sites, too: https://seniorpastorcentral.com/316/6-reasons-you-should-preach-other-pastors-sermons/

  112. ishy: sermon services companies

    I’m dismayed but not surprised that these exist.

    The sermons at our church are written just for us. It’s often clear from specifics in the content. Also, the sermons reflect the preachers’ personalities and interests. One guest preacher, an Old Testament professor, treated us to amazing insights into Hebrew Scripture, complete with handouts. He taught us about curses in ancient cultures, to explain distasteful imagery in the day’s reading. He was overjoyed to share with us.

  113. Meanwhile, over at Mark Denver’s twitter feed he is going all gooey over the stack of T4G books he has just received by post:

    https://twitter.com/markdever/status/1244685215940968448?s=21

    Talk about fiddling while Rome burns!

    Why do non of the T4G faithful seem to realise the obvious: that these ‘free’ books which they all rave about are actually paid for by the high conference fees of would-be attendees?! Those same attendees were strongly encouraged not to seek refunds when T4G was cancelled, lest T4G go bankrupt…!

  114. No we know what Mark Dever is doing while not preparing sermons, providing online church services or genuinely pastoring during this time of international Covid crisis: He Is both literally and metaphorically is sticking his head inside a bag of books, sniffing the glue that binds them and waiting for everything to return to ’9Marks normal’…

    https://twitter.com/markdever/status/1244685215940968448?s=21

  115. Sjon:
    No we know what Mark Dever is doing while not preparing sermons, providing online church services or genuinely pastoring during this time of international Covid crisis: He Is both literally and metaphorically is sticking his head inside a bag of books, sniffing the glue that binds them and waiting for everything to return to ’9Marks normal’…

    https://twitter.com/markdever/status/1244685215940968448?s=21

    “Stuck on you,
    Stuck on you,
    Stuck on you from sniffin’ glue;
    Nothing that my heart can’t do
    ‘Cause I’m stuck on you from sniffin’ glue!”
    — fragment of a 40-year-old Dr Demento song that never made it to YouTube

  116. Sjon: Why do non of the T4G faithful seem to realise the obvious: that these ‘free’ books which they all rave about are actually paid for by the high conference fees of would-be attendees?! Those same attendees were strongly encouraged not to seek refunds when T4G was cancelled, lest T4G go bankrupt…!

    Every time I think, “These guys are something else”, then they get worse.

  117. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Interesting song! (Though in this case it seems that there is nothing that Dever’s heart CAN do…)

    You may have guessed by now that I am simply flabbergasted at the ridiculous insensitivity of Dever’s tweet at a time like this. He seems to be living in an alternative universe. If he has time to twiddle his thumbs, then why doesn’t he volunteer to help in some way with the Covid relief effort?

  118. Headless Unicorn Guy: JFJr has shown once again the type of man he is.

    Well, and now the governor of Virginia has issued a statewide stay-at-home order. The governor praised several Virginia medical schools and centers for helping out with the pandemic. Not a peep about LU.

  119. Friend: Well, and now the governor of Virginia has issued a statewide stay-at-home order. The governor praised several Virginia medical schools and centers for helping out with the pandemic. Not a peep about LU.

    I just saw that. I wouldn’t be surprised if LU was a reason for it, though, especially now that students who returned have caught the virus.

  120. ishy: I wouldn’t be surprised if LU was a reason for it

    I’m sure the topic came up. Mayors and governors are not liking flagrant gestures these days. However, it looks like DC and Maryland acted simultaneously.

  121. Sjon,

    Here’s my theory on Mark Dever (grin + sarcasm):
    Dever was born in Hopkins County, Kentucky in 1960. In 1955, space aliens supposedly landed just south of the Hopkins County line in Kelly, Kentucky (there mighta been some good ole Kentucky moonshine involved in this……).
    Anyway, after thinkin’ things over, I believe those “aliens” mighta left some kind of eggs somewhere around the county line, and one of those eggs rolled on over into Hopkins County and hatched 5 years later……… could Dever be a hatchling from another world????
    Being a native Kentuckian myself ( with kinfolk in Hopkins County, and living less than an hour’s drive from both Kelly and Madisonville) that half-baked dream of mine makes as much sense to me as anything else. I certainly don’t claim Dever as one of my own.
    ……. Would suit me fine if some little green men came to KY in search of Dever with plans to take him “home”, ET style.

    Y’all …… pardon my temporary insanity………It’s this COVID-19 thing …….. We’re healthy and we’ve got all kinds of food and toilet paper, etc……. but hubby and I are both growing more and more irritated about not being able to get haircuts that we were already overdue for………. I trimmed a little myself this morning — not enough. If I go full-blown scissor happy, it ain’t gonna be pretty. Dever is a distraction.
    Wait! Am I really insane to dream that Dever might be an alien?

  122. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Am I really insane to dream that Dever might be an alien?

    Well, he and his ilk are definitely alien to the Gospel I have known for the better part of a century … and his tribe are body snatchers of sort by taking over churches by stealth and deception. But, as to your Hopkins County theory, I think it must be the dandelion wine kicking in.

  123. Jerome:
    Wow, the domestic violence escalation thing has 9Marksist Jonathan Leeman telling pastors that the thing to do regarding households that they know abuse occurs in, is to “check in regularly”:

    https://twitter.com/JonathanLeeman/status/1244651629057581061

    Check in with whom? Or is he advising looking for signs of physical injury? Presumably the wife’s testimony would not carry as much weight as the husbands.

  124. Samuel Conner: Check in with whom? Or is he advising looking for signs of physical injury? Presumably the wife’s testimony would not carry as much weight as the husbands.

    I wouldn’t trust that man to check on suspected abuse, because he might end up triggering it. (“How come the preacher is nosing around? Did you call him?”)

  125. Sjon: Why do non of the T4G faithful seem to realise the obvious: that these ‘free’ books which they all rave about are actually paid for by the high conference fees of would-be attendees?!

    Rather like the “free” continental breakfast provided by hotels, isn’t it?

  126. ishy,

    We don’t have beaches but people are crowding parks. Normally that would be great but right now not so much.

    A number of churches have had super spreads. We had one here with 30+ cases and I read an article about a choir in wash state (where they should have known better) where a majority of the 60 people who attended for sick. Stay away from churches!

  127. Lea: We don’t have beaches but people are crowding parks. Normally that would be great but right now not so much.

    I don’t live in Florida, but I have family in Tampa. But I saw that area on the news here for the overcrowded beaches.

    They just closed all the state parks and my county closed all local parks, because people were not respecting social distancing. And apparently, there’s been some considerable vandalism by people who are angry the bathrooms and other facilities are clsoed.

    I just hang out in my backyard.

  128. ishy: there’s been some considerable vandalism by people who are angry the bathrooms and other facilities are closed.

    They closed them in my area because goobers were stealing the toilet paper! Pandemics bring out the best and worst in people.

  129. We left our church last May because of the new-ish head pastor who brought Calvinism in with him. After some attempts to share our concerns with the elders, we realized they side with him, that they are Calvinists too, and that it was pointless for us to fight it. So we left and have been listening to sermons online from a pastor I trust and respect.

    And while it is a very different way to do church, I don’t regret it. We watch with our kids, discuss what we heard, and have been able to ground them in biblical truth and educate them on the errors and dangers of Calvinism. Plus it’s been nice to not have to race off to church first thing in the morning. (And I started a blog dedicated to confronting and exposing Calvinism. It came out of my frustration that no one at our church would listen to us. And so in some ways, I am thankful they didn’t. Because I might not have blogged about it if they did.)

    Anyway, it’s funny you wrote this post, because I had the same idea and hope – that maybe some time away from the church building will give those at our old church a chance to question the theology of the “new” pastor and how they feel about the changes he brought in. Maybe some time away will offer some clarity. Of course, I daydream that our elder friends call us up someday to tell us that they researched Calvinism during this social distancing time and that they agree with us now. That’s probably not going to happen, but I can dream.

  130. heather: I daydream that our elder friends call us up someday to tell us that they researched Calvinism during this social distancing time and that they agree with us now

    Doubtful that will happen. The spirit gripping the minds of the New Calvinists is powerful – it won’t let them go easily.

  131. Ken F (aka Tweed): Thinking out loud here.Until the reformation, Christians everywhere believed that the bread and wine became the real body and blood of Jesus (in one way or another). As far as I can tell, Zwingli was the first to argue that is is just a symbol with nothing inherently spiritual in the actual elements (Luther strongly disagreed).Once churches replaced the eucharist with the sermon as the center of the service, could it be that many churches likewise removed the real presence of Christ from the sermon?

    Bingo. Spot-on as always.

  132. Right on Dee you are so spot on that I’m am thrilled to be reading this post for the first time this morning!!!!! I had been thinking what a blessing it is for the church right now in regards to these sovereign Grace Churches, 9 marks, Calvinist churches where people have been literally yanked from the grasps of these men who have been Lording over them. This time away gives people time away from the accountability groups, monitoring, counseling tactics, and information gathering on members time to look at the strongholds they have been under and listen to other teachings outside of Calvin! The leadership in these places have kept such a stronghold because they kept the members so busy, bombarded them with grow groups, counseling, serving that they had no time to think for themselves. I am so so glad you have noticed the blessing in this social distancing. I’m anxious to get back to normal however I’m praying that once we go back to normal the church has awakened and left these evil circles that found their way into the body of Christ. I love you all here billy and I are so grateful for the people on this website. I’m praying for you and always have a place in my heart for the people who picked us up and carried us during the worst time in our lives. Big hugs from Shauna and billy in Texas!!!!!

  133. Whistleblower4Jesus: what I (a female worship leader) was allowed to say while leading music was occasionally up for discussion (not with me in the room, though…they would talk to my husband who would then report to me)

    This happened to me too, in a conservative evangelical Anglican Church. It drove me bananas because I wanted to know why, if I was able to participate in that ministry, could they not speak with me directly? But the vicar there wouldn’t speak to a woman without a chaperone present, among other things.