“Satan, the leader or dictator of devils, is the opposite, not of God, but of Michael.” – C. S. Lewis
John Ortberg has been fully reinstated at Menlo Church.The elders appear to be saying “Nothing to see here, move along.* However, I believe they are mistaken and it is highly likely that this unresolved situation will come back to bite them in the proverbial nose.
- This is the most concerning aspect of this whole situation. The church cooers to say that we all have *unwanted thoughts.* We all have unwanted thoughts. However, chronic unwanted thoughts about sexual feelings directed to middle and high school students is ABNORMAL. It is a sign of a profound psychiatric disorder. There’s a world of difference between a guy who gets the hots looking at a beautiful woman walking by and a person who has the hots for younger/underage students. This is indicative of a profound psychiatric disorder. To top it off, the unidentified person in this story, at the time or discovery, was allegedly not receiving counseling. This is worrisome.
- The name of the investigator should be released unless…he is a lawyer whose main job is to protect the church. There is something rather odd going on here. I have heard that a number of people know his name and I think it would be wise to get that name out there. There does not appear to be any good reason to keep this a secret.
- There is also something odd about the lengths to which the church and Ortberg are going to protect the identity of the person with the *feelings.* It leads me to believe that this person is extremely close to the Ortberg family. Did Ortberg choose to believe this situation was not serious because he was way too close to the person involved?
- Do those involved actually believe that no one will guess the names of the investigator and the volunteer?
Ruth Hutchins attends Menlo Church and started this website to ask some very good questions about this situation. The rest of this post is from two posts on her website.
1. Menlo Church Town Hall #1
March 1, 2020
This will just be a quick blow-by-blow—cleaned up notes, basically.
The meeting was relatively well attended. One speaker joked that they would be doing other town hall meetings, and she hoped to see everyone again in the future.
The meeting began by introducing the Session members. Not everyone was present but most were. There were short updates from a few committees. One mentioned that elder nominations would likely be opening up soon for two new elders. The finance update was that the church income and expenses were both on track wrt the budget.
The organizational update said there wasn’t a lot to report yet, but that John would be returning in a role that focused on teaching, preaching, and mentorship, which the elder board agreed were his strengths. They said they were looking for a different way to structure Menlo Church going forward organizationally, but they didn’t know yet what that would be. They were beginning a process of collecting input from staff and leaders of other multi-site churches.
There was a testimonial from one of the campus pastors about how God had been working in their ministries.
Then the Q & A took up the rest of the time. The church did not take live questions; instead they did written questions on cards. Some questions were read off verbatim and others were summarized or grouped with others. I’ll skip the questions that were unrelated to the Ortberg/pedophile issue, but most questions were related. The text here is not verbatim, but hopefully you get the gist. Questions were answered by Beth Seabolt, chair of the elder board.
Q: Danny said John said very negative things about gays and transgenders, what should we tell our friends about John’s attitude?
A: I had relative who was gay and not accepted by family, and one day, when life was difficult, he took his life. And I thought: if only he had had Jesus. So John and I have had long talks about this, and I can tell you that John loves gays and transgenders. And he truly believes that everybody’s welcome and nobody’s perfect.
Q: At what grade level did the volunteer work, at which campus? We had two boys in the middle school program.
A: The volunteer worked with middle school and high school on the Menlo Park campus. We did a thorough investigation of all volunteer records, talked to all staff members who had been there, we hired a third party independent investigator, had full license to look into everything, no allegations of misconduct.
Understand it’s concerning, I would be asking the same questions, if anything ever did come up we would contact law enforcement and keep you informed.
Q: The initial email from elders was ambiguous about whether the volunteer continued 2018-2019 after disclosing to John. News claimed the volunteer did, sometimes alone. When did the person stop volunteering? Why didn’t the elders disclose the details of the timing of the starting/stopping?
A: Yes, we did confirm that they continued. No, not alone. They stopped volunteering when the Board became aware of the situation in November 2019. The volunteer volunteered off and on for years, and so the details of starting and stopping– I thought we did put it in the email…? No wait, we didn’t. We are sorry.
Q: The elder email was vague. Why not provide facts what was going on from the start?
A: Well, it was a two page, detailed email, so we apologize that we missed the fact that you wanted. We invited you to write to us, I have answered so many of your emails. Hopefully that is encouraging.
Q: The local news was providing a different message than the elders’ message. It felt like the elders were hiding the truth by providing a vague email.
A: It’s not our goal to hide truth. It is our goal to avoid causing unnecessary anxiety. So we took the time to conduct an investigation so we could give you the good news that there were no allegations of misconduct. Thanks for your patience and trust.
Q: Why haven’t you responded to Daniel Lavery?
A: We are not going to get into a media battle with Daniel Lavery. I had an estranged child who reconnected in the past week. It was almost two years. As people become young adults and need to break away, it’s harder now, we oldsters would call once very two weeks, now kids are so connected, we can speak far too much into their lives into young adulthood, sometimes they need to take a strong stand, sometimes an angry stand, to start their adult lives. What you see here is Danny lashing out. And Danny is breaking away, and Danny is starting Danny’s own life. And I’ve walked that walk, and I hope we can all give John and Nancy some grace because I know how painful that is.
…Q: OK, we got three questions about the investigator.
A: Wow, we were lucky to get this investigator. Very well-received investigator, nationally. Speciality is in workplace misconduct. No specialty in pedophilia. However, outstanding work. Worked in Washington. We were blessed to have someone so capable. We gave investigator free reign to go into every area of interest of his. He dove into everything. So we felt very, very confident when the investigation was done.
Q: (Inquiring roundabout the identity of the volunteer)
A: No, we’re not going to tell you the identity of the volunteer. We’re going to keep that private and confidential. Interesting thing about unwanted thoughts. I had several people write in about OCD. Doesn’t every one of us have unwanted thoughts? Thought about Joyce Meyers, Battlefield of the Mind. No crime in coming in to ask for help with unwanted thoughts. So we are going to protect the privacy, confidentiality of the volunteer. Read more reading at this link.
2. Thoughts on the Menlo Church Town Hall
March 3, 2020
Sunday’s Q&A was a bit less filtered than previous messages from the church. My overall impressions:
1. Menlo Church really doesn’t want you to know who their investigator was, which is too bad for them, because it’s already on Twitter. Boz Tchividjian has a great summary of why a practicing attorney cannot be considered independent:
A fiduciary duty is a legal duty to act solely in another party’s interests. … For example, attorneys owe their clients a fiduciary duty. Thus, when a practicing attorney or law firm is hired to conduct the investigation, the institution is in the drivers seat and the process is not independent. An independent investigator has a fiduciary duty to the truth, regardless of where it may be found.
2. Beth Seabolt, in particular, showed bias. “You know we love you,” she said to John at the Town Hall. Asked about Danny Lavery, she said he was “lashing out” and beginning his adult life angrily, as young people do, while avoiding using Danny’s pronouns. She said she identified with John and Nancy because she herself had had an estranged child. Beth was the lead for this entire affair—the chair of the elder board, part of the ethical misconduct subcommittee that handled this whole process, one of two elders authorized to select legal counsel for this process, and one of two elders authorized to select the investigator.
3. Menlo Church does not seem to understand pedophilia. In this Q&A, they revealed for the first time that the volunteer had been working with middle schoolers and high schoolers. Perhaps they’re thinking the students are not at significant risk because the complaint said the volunteer was attracted to young children. But those who work with sex offenders can attest that offenders will target whoever is available if their preferred age range is not; and middle schoolers start out quite young. I know from personal experience that volunteers in these ministries are frequently unsupervised by staff. Beth’s final answer compared pedophilia to OCD. “Doesn’t everyone have unwanted thoughts?” she said.
…When I first asked to review the investigation results, I was told that was not allowed because it would risk the privacy of the person who came for counseling. When I asked how long the person had been volunteering at Menlo Church, that too was unanswered because of the volunteer’s privacy. Who was the investigator? Not sharing that information. I asked if parents and volunteers were interviewed—that was a no. I asked if the volunteer’s identity was disclosed during the interviews—that was also a no, or at least, not always. Would Menlo Church have been equally secretive if the volunteer had been a nobody? Maybe, but it looks like this situation is getting special treatment because of the connection to John.
The leadership should have been asking: How can we make it absolutely clear that we will handle every situation with truth and transparency, no matter how beloved the accused or how unexpected the whistleblower? How can we show that we value and demand integrity from our leaders?
…First and foremost, this person came to John for help. Why didn’t John help? It appears that John offered prayers and referrals for counseling, which the volunteer did not take because they were afraid of getting reported by a therapist. Why didn’t John try a little harder? While there is no cure, there are specialized treatment programs where the volunteer wouldn’t have to worry about getting reported. Pedophilia and treatment for pedophilia has been covered quite a bit in the media. Some pedophiles find medication combos that prevent or reduce the intrusive thoughts. Imagine how life-changing that could have been for this person!
I find it hard to believe John didn’t know about all this. Why—why didn’t John get this person real help? Why didn’t John exert all his persuasive power to get this person to therapy?
1 BAM
Silver?
Not too happy about this paragraph:
“It’s not our goal to hide truth. It is our goal to avoid causing unnecessary anxiety. So we took the time to conduct an investigation so we could give you the good news that there were no allegations of misconduct. Thanks for your patience and trust.”
Taking this at face value, this wording seems to me to imply that the purpose of the investigation was to support the result that was found, “no allegations of misconduct”.
It is not hard to envision wording that would have conveyed that the goal of the investigation was to uncover the truth, whatever it might be. One hopes that was what the speaker meant, and that the actual wording was simply carelessness.
Why—why didn’t John get this person real help? Why didn’t John exert all his persuasive power to get this person to therapy?
If the person had gotten help, I doubt it would have been a duly trained and licensed therapist . . .
“John Ortberg has been fully reinstated at Menlo Church. The elders appear to be saying “Nothing to see here, move along.” (Dee)
Mars Hill: “But Pastor Driscoll is potty-mouth, women-demeaning, and plagiarizing.”
MH Elders: ““Nothing to see here, move along.”
Willow Creek: “But Pastor Hybels has behaved inappropriately around women.”
WC Elders: “Nothing to see here, move along.”
Harvest Bible Chapel: “But Pastor MacDonald is a bully and misappropriated church funds.”
HBC Elders: “Nothing to see here, move along.”
etc., etc.
Getting a “this tweet is unavailable” notice when I try to read it. Anyone else?
Things sure do disappear rather quickly on other sites once a TWW article comes out with factual information attached.
“… Church does not seem to understand pedophilia”
Most churches don’t. It’s why I write about it, as a public service, to the Church in particular. That’s where I’ve see it most deceptively flourish, unfortunately. Such a contradiction. The safe place has become a hunting ground. Predators prowl. Uninformed or choosing-to-be-blind others enable, support, BFF, and even applaud. The vulnerable are witnesses; they realize what goes on – too late and without justice, recourse, assistance, anyone believing them and most important: without restoring safety to the place called church by corporately dealing with predators.
Sunday School, Vacation Bible School, Kids Club, Youth Group, Camp, Retreats, etc. All there for the predators’ playground – the big evangelical “love and forgiveness” tent called church. Not good. Never of God that predators reign, enablers support them, and victim witnesses are left dealing with the criminal reality. In church.
I’d just point out that Danny Lavery is not some 18 year old who has just left home and is bitter. (Hey, I know about this, because I did that when I was 18, back over four decades ago.) He’s 33. He’s hardly “beginning his adult life.” Way to minimize an adult, Beth.
So, basically, they’re saying that Danny Lavery is angry and bitter and young, and doesn’t know better. Moreover, they aren’t going to talk about this and they’re certainly going to avoid using the right pronouns but he’s an evil sinful transgender person. And like his father, John Ortberg, they really think that an evil sinful transgender person has nothing to offer in the way of advice about child sexual abuse because his sin of being transgender consumes everything about him and warps whatever comes out of his mouth.
Yeah, so maybe I went a little too far, but I don’t think I did. I’ll remind everyone that it is this very incident that stomped on my last nerve regarding church. When church leaders feel free to ignore sexual minorities who are telling them something is very wrong, when something IS very wrong, there’s a problem. And I want nothing to do with that kind of attitude. That’s all I have to say because I’m starting to cry again.
Just as long as it’s not that colloidal silver convicted felon and televangelist Jim Bakker is pushing on his TV show.
“I can tell you that John loves gays and transgenders”
Could that answer be less helpful? What are you going to believe, a generic press statement from bob at church who is doing press for John, or John’s son?
“I asked if parents and volunteers were interviewed—that was a no. ”
HOW? Are they only interviewing people who are least likely to know if there was misconduct????
Right??? This irritated me so much. He’s almost middle aged! He knows what he’s about and if he has thoughts about his father they are probably well formed and factual.
Yeah, it was dead when I checked the blog post the other day, which was evidently shortly after it was posted. Priorities…
Ava Aaronson,
My church has tightened volunteer guidelines, including background checks every two years for ongoing volunteer staff. No longer “one and done.” A friend who teaches in Sunday School with me was quite offended that they don’t “trust” her, and I told her what welcoming places churches are for adults who prey on children. She stopped arguing with me after that. The church pays for the police report, so the volunteers really don’t have to do anything.
A: ”It’s not our goal to hide truth. It is our goal to avoid causing unnecessary anxiety.”
BS on this.
If I was at that church, what would decrease my anxiety would be FULL disclosure including person involved, dates and programs, copy of the investigation, etc. so I could assess my own family’s risk.
Absolutely! That jumped out at me too. Also, the idea that the anxiety was ‘unnecessary’.
JDV,
oops maybe the link is broken. Pretty sure the tweet is still up.
https://twitter.com/tripleoxymoron/status/1234325636337913856?s=21
When I click on the link it takes me to Benjamin Ady’s tweet with a photo of a prominent lawyer by the name of Fred W Alvarez. Is this where it is supposed to be taking us.
As an OCD sufferer, I must address this church’s confusion about unwanted thoughts.
The unwanted thoughts associated with OCD are ego-dystonic — that is, they do *not* accord with the patient’s usual, everyday, ordinary feelings or impulses. In fact, they usually run directly *counter* to the patient’s normal thoughts and wishes. That is precisely why they are so terrifying, as they seem to come out of left field, so to speak.
Actual feelings of attraction towatd underage persons are another thing altogether. They are NOT ego-dystonic. Warped, yes. But that’s because the person admitting to these feelings actually *does* have a warped, disordered sexuality.
For the record, when I was tormented by ego-dystonic, truly *unwanted* thoughts, they had absolutely nothing to do with anything being discussed here. OCD thoughts can be about anything. The only common denominator is that they are unwanted, ego-dystonic, and extremely unpleasant. I used to refer to mine as “fear-thoughts.”
Luvox delivered me from my fear- thoughts. I doubt that it would do much for someone whose “unwanted” thoughts were actually, on some level, wanted.
Yep. BS on Steroids.
Gary Boswell,
Yes, that’s the correct link.
Just to add that NY State Attorney General Letitia James sent a letter to Bakker earlier this week telling him to stop making misleading claims about the efficacy of colloidal silver in treating or curing illness. I’d provide a link, but the only one I’ve found goes to Bloomberg and they want money. But as long as we’re just handing out silver awards, no harm, no foul. 🙂
“Wow, we were lucky to get this investigator. Very well-received investigator, nationally. Speciality is in workplace misconduct. No specialty in pedophilia. However, outstanding work. Worked in Washington. We were blessed to have someone so capable. We gave investigator free reign to go into every area of interest of his. He dove into everything. So we felt very, very confident when the investigation was done.”
This answer is so Trump-esque it’s almost unbelievable. “Only the best people… the top people have told me… We have very good people…”
To an outsider, these answers suggest that the elders don’t know the whole truth, haven’t grasped the whole truth, or are attempting to cover up some of the truth – or some combination of the three.
Hm, the link works for me but I went ahead and added another link.
Ruth,
I got through with the Twitter link you provided. Thanks. It was the original link that I got the “unavailable” message.
Ortberg was trained by Bill Hybels with a seeker-friendly ministry style to “give them what they want and they will come.” I suppose that also works to attract predators! Beware of swimming in shallow water; sharks feed there.
Exactly! And you better well tell me who did the investigation so that their credentials to even do this type of investigation can be verified. Otherwise, for all I know, Santa Clause did the investigating! And he’s not qualified!
The elders’ answers and explanations are absolute rubbish! They tell the congregation nothing to alleviate anxiety about the safety of children.
Yep. And, either Ortberg didn’t learn a thing at Willow Creek, or he just doesn’t care.
Recall how the ‘Board’ chair described things: “Wow, we were lucky to get this investigator. Very well-received investigator, nationally. Speciality is in workplace misconduct. No specialty in pedophilia. However, outstanding work. Worked in Washington.”
Didn’t notice the term “workplace misconduct” specified in the firm bio for the name from the Twitter thread, but it did point to what the practice is devoted:
https://www.coblentzlaw.com/people/fred-w-alvarez/
“He has had an active individual and class action litigation practice devoted to defending employers in trial He has had an active individual and class action litigation practice devoted to defending employers in trial.” There is also a mention of “conducting sensitive internal investigations”, with clients “in a range of industries, including energy, retail, communications, financial services, and technology.”
Though similar situations to the Ortberg were not apparent in terms of the case work listed, Alvarez recently spoke as part of the following panel:
https://www.coblentzlaw.com/unpacking-the-high-profile-sexual-harassment-case-what-the-players-are-actually-up-to-before-the-lawsuit-hits/
http://content.sfbar.org/source/BASF_Pages/PDF/g2000301-4.pdf
Unpacking The High Profile Sexual Harassment Case: What The Players Are Actually Up To Before The Lawsuit Hits As a high profile sexual harassment matter unfolds, the key legal players — counsel to the company, counsel for the accuser, counsel for the accused, the investigator and the mediator who will be asked to resolve it — all must swing into action under competing pressures and play very different roles and pursue very separate agendas. In this panel, the lawyers playing those roles will talk about what is on their agendas as they represent their clients or perform their functions, what critical strategic and tactical issues they face and should anticipate, and how they measure success.
Also:
https://www.coblentzlaw.com/prominent-employment-lawyer-fred-w-alvarez-joins-coblentz-patch-duffy-bass/
“Coblentz Patch Duffy & Bass LLP is a premier provider of innovative, results-oriented legal services, specializing in real estate, litigation, corporate, intellectual property, employment, tax, and family wealth. “
It’s every church’s responsibility to take steps in protecting their children from sex predators. Otherwise these things will keep on happening. When they do happen they’re often covered up, sometimes for many years. Take for example the recent exposure RC Sproul Jr is getting for covering up Steven Sitler’s predations in his church, the same Sitler that later molested children in Doug Wilson’s church. Sproul’s part in it is truly horrible.
https://rc-sproul-jr.blogspot.com/2020/02/rc-sproul-jr-steven-sitler-pedophile-coverup.html
I wonder if they display the Cross at Menlo? Hybels wouldn’t do that – he thought it intimidated seekers. There is so much wrong with the Willow Creek model.
When the elders won’t openly address these folks’ honest questions and concerns (especially the parents of teens), those members should pack it up and find another church! I’m certain that’s not the only church in town and I’m also equally certain that Ortberg is so wonderfully eloquent that he is totally untouchable.
Let put it another way a little more bluntly: there is NO CHURCH worth sacrificing your child’s future to because of its ‘wonderful’ pastor or programs! Any time it smells like something is rotten in Denmark, it usually is. If they don’t want to be forthcoming with answers, then my advice is to GET OUT and don’t look back!
The bottom-line.
“In church.” This is a prime example why I do not think that such “churches” are really Jesus’ Church. To call them as if they are is kind of blasphemous to me. It links Jesus to pure anti-Christ behavior.
Excellent. Would you like to share what church?
Good advice. Sounds biblical.
So long as there are enough tithing and ‘offering’ butts in seats to ensure a good cash flow, I don’t think any of em’ care.
I think that there is an important message in this that we should not miss. The other lesser leaders that participate in a false church that promotes a man and not Jesus Christ actively and fully participate in the sins and the charade. As they are doing that, many times they also become victims. It does not matter if it was a branch location “pastor” under Driscoll, James McDonald or Hybels. The Ortbergs were fully guilty of that as anyone. As they were doing that, then Mrs. Ortberg also became a victim of the narcissist leader, as did many lesser leaders under the other two. Have the Ortbergs ever really repented of participating in a personality cult as leaders and acting as Judases towards the real Jesus Christ? If they had I think they would have gotten out of the ministry completely. They learned the wrong kind of “ministry” and that will never, ever, ever become the Holy kind. Welcome to reality. It is often times a lot meaner than what we want to think…
This is why these folks need to send a message with their feet! If Menlo loses enough ‘tithing-units’, they just might have to rethink their position—especially if they can’t keep the lights on! Why can’t these ‘leaders’ just do the right thing? This is not a church, because shepherds lay down their lives for the sheep. They don’t feed them to the wolves!
This is topic-adjacent, but relevant to the problems in the churches.
The phenomenon of unethical or criminal leaders re-branding themselves after a fall and going on to present themselves as thought-leader authorities on the problems in which they participated is not unique to the churches, though I suppose that ideology might make it easier to do this in churches than elsewhere.
I just read that Andrew Fastow, convicted felon and former Chief Financial Officer of Enron Corporation, now gives talks on ethical corporate leadership.
https://energyshipsummit.com/speakers/
I suppose that it is encouraging to know that the churches are not unique in terms of the quality of their leadership.
This is the legacy of the Willow Creek Model for doing church … there are thousands of such churches and leaders across the American landscape.
Shortly after his shameful departure from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Paige Patterson taught a course on Christian ethics at Southern Evangelical Seminary. You can’t make stuff up like this.
Church actors would have no stage if they didn’t have “offering butts” willing to buy tickets to the show.
Max,
I have seen this professionally a number of times… a “leader” guilty of some specific character flaw, taught/Presented himself/herself as a expert on said character flaw. Now, if the leader stands up, and publicly admits they have failed in this area, and then tells us peons how to not repeat said “leaders” “ failure”, this can have real value…… but, and we all know what comes next….
I have encountered sociopaths/manipulators who used that excuse as a fallback defense when caught.
“There’s a sucker born every minute.”
— P.T.Barnum
And we all know the Koine Greek word for “actor onstage”, don’t we?
Wasn’t that Rabbi from Nazareth also 33?
Is he claiming it cures cancer, or just coronavirus?
(Sounds like that (Organic?) Forsythia Extract in the movie Contagion…
This blew my mind. Who else is there that most needs to be interviewed, if one truly wants to determine if any misconduct took place? This one sentence demonstrates this so-called investigation is nothing more than a CYA sham.
In a real investigation, every single current and past volunteer who worked with the person in question would be interviewed, and told exactly who the person in question was. Every single parent who had a child in any programs with this volunteer would also be questioned, and given the name of the person in question.
This is what happens when the safety of the children is the true priority, rather than protecting the well-connected potential suspect.
I don’t know how large this church is, but it is difficult to believe that someone is not going to connect the dots and expose the identity of the person in question anyway.
I suspect the scope of the volunteer’s involvement would make that equivalent to releasing the name, and they really don’t want people to know.
This is the only reason they wouldn’t interview the other volunteers. They care more about keeping things secret than gathering info.
Also, beware of any preacher who preaches hard and often against a particular sin … some of them were ensnared by the very things they were opposed to. (remember Ted Haggard?)
Or Andy “Organic Moment” Savage leading a seminar on sexual purity…
Ava Aaronson,
““… Church does not seem to understand pedophilia””
+++++++++++++++++
i think church has been too influenced (directly and indirectly) by ‘the wordless book’ (and the ideas it conveys).
i remember as a kid being given a little booklet that had
a black page
a red page
a white page
then a gold page.
jesus dissolves all bad behavior and makes it white — like bleach.
not saying thank you, having mean eyes, yelling, swearing, cheating, abusing, sexually assaulting… just pray the prayer of forgiveness, boom! done! sparkling clean! now let’s go enjoy that potluck dinner.
Lea,
““I can tell you that John loves gays and transgenders””
+++++++++++++++++
there’s a world of difference between theory and practice on that one.
it’s amazing — leave it to christians to turn ‘love’ into something painful, something that devastates and demoralizes, something that destroys.
Just got confirmation from Eagle.
Jim Bakker (of Jim & Tammy fame) IS claiming his colloidal silver ($80 a vial, special price $145 for two) DOES cure Coronavirus within 12 hours. THAT’s what attracted the attention of the state AG.
Looks like he’s branched out from Armageddon Survival buckets of dried beans & rice. The ad for these literally reads “Imagine — the world is dying and you’re having a breakfast for kings!” Prices are $135/bucket (50 man-days), $1100 for two man-years, or $4500 for a full seven man-years (the entire Great Tribulation for one).
I’m not even mentioning the $45 a pop ($450 for 13) Prayer Coins.
I am not making any of this up.
Once a grifter, always a grifter.
“Where I learned with little labor
The way to Love My Fellow Man
And Hate My Next-door Neighbor.”
— G.K.Chesteron, don’t remember the poem’s title
“Only Fundies could turn a Father’s welcome-home party for his wayward son into a Fascist Rally.”
— commenter on one of these blogs
“The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones.”
— William Shakespeare —
PERSECUTION! by Godless liberals who hate God and his Word!
Lol…my retirement gig consists of writing Amazon product listings, and I recently wrote one for colloidal silver.
The FDA (and Amazon) will not allow marketers to make *any* claims regarding silver’s curative properties. All one can say is that it provides immune support (which is apparently backed up by peer-reviewed studies).
That said, there is a *ton* of anecdotal evidence suggesting that it really does fight viral and bacterial infections, among other things. Silver has been used as an antibiotic for millennia…even Hippocrates mentions it. And it’s still used in hospital bandages.
I seriously doubt it could cure Coronavirus in 12 days, let alone 12 hours. But it’s not just useless snake oil either.
Yes, yes, a Dr. Oz segment on Oprah years ago:
Man’s self-medicating with colloidal silver turned him into Papa Smurf!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T58YRgdrljM
If the PPM is too high, that happens. But the colloidal silver available now has such a low concentration of silver particles suspended in the solution that this outcome is virtually impossible. If you look up these products at Amazon, you’ll see that they all advertise “low PPM.” The lower the PPM, the better. Plus, it’s supposed to be used sparingly! 😉
Most folks are not aware that the FDA does not regulate vitamins and supplements as they do medications. Such products receive very little attention by regulators, with no or limited testing to support label claims.
TS00,
Let me guess that the investigation is not about whether sheep was protected or not. The investigation is about whether the church is legally liable. Control the flow of information and communication, silence those who question and take a postsure this is over and everybody should move along will keep the church from being sue.
Nothing to do with truth, integrity, and imitate the Shepherd.
The leaders are Pontius Pilates – “What is truth?”
Just because churches don’t display a cross does not mean that they aren’t Christians. A lot of people meet in locations where they don’t own the property or are meeting secretly.
He’s been selling it for a while, saying it will cure anything, basically. It’s only been recently that he’s zeroed in on coronavirus. It’s this that attracted the attention of the NYS Attorney General, because we know there isn’t a cure for coronavirus.
My brother is a “mild” prepper. He’s got a couple weeks worth of dried food socked away (and he’s even included me, even though I live several miles away). But he didn’t buy Jim Bakker buckets. He bought from a reputable company that has (for dried food) tasty food.
It will turn your skin an ashy blue if you consume too much of this. Some one I know (former Scientologist, and trust me, Scientologists are seriously into woo) who lives in Austria consumed a lot of colloidal silver and OMG her skin really did turn blue. I just looked at a recent picture of her and she seems to have recovered.
Yes, that’s true. Amazon has very strict rules for FBA (Fulfilled-by-Amazon) sellers of supplements, etc.: You can’t claim that your supplement gets health results unless you can cite peer-reviewed scientific studies supporting that claim.
Even then, you can only claim that key *ingredient(s)* in your supplement are supported by scientific research, not that *your* particular supplement, with *its* particular formula, has such support. Scientists usually study the components, the ingredients, not the particular brand.
So, yeah, the rules are pretty strict, really.
However, the Amazon marketplace is so huge that the watchdogs can’t possibly police everybody — it’s the proverbial “herding-cats” scenario. So, a lot of bad actors do slip through the cracks. If and when they are eventually found out, they do get penalized, though.
As for the FDA: It’s true that they don’t regulate supplements, but the flip side of this is that you can’t claim your supplement is FDA-approved. In fact, you have to provide a disclaimer specifying that it’s *not* FDA-approved. Which definitely reduces credibility (and hence depresses sales).
My own view: Some supplements work. (E.g., I give my dog glucosamine/chondroitin soft chews for her arthritis, and they do seem to help.) Other supplements, however, are essentially worthless — e.g., herbal testosterone boosters. (Don’t even get me started on essential oils, LOL.) And some alternative therapies, such as ear candling, are downright dangerous.
The main reasons why I think colloidal silver may have *some* effectiveness are as follows:
(1) Silver *is* known to be antimicrobial; that’s long been established, in fact. That’s why my former employer, a huge apparel company, markets athletic wear knit with silver-infused yarns: The silver fights odor-causing bacteria, so you stink less when you sweat!
(2) Silver has been used as an antibiotic for millennia. Before the advent of modern antibiotics, it was widely used in wound care, e.g., on the battlefield. It was used to treat wounded soldiers during the Civil War, for instance. It’s still woven into a lot of hospital bandages…even in modern, up-to-date hospitals right here in the USA.
(3) Customer reviews and other anecdotal evidence overwhelmingly suggest that colloidal silver does get results. Sure, there’s probably a placebo effect: People expect it to work, so it does. Plus, of course, not all reviews are trustworthy. But OTOH “50,000 Frenchmen can’t be wrong.” When there are *that* many positive reviews and testimonials, there must be *some* substance behind them.
Some people swear that colloidal silver wiped out their kids’ acne as well as Accutane would have. Others claim it reduces their cold and flu symptoms quickly and dramatically.
I dunno. I think it may be worth a try, at least. But no, I would never dream of buying it from a huckster like Bakker. You can get it for a pretty reasonable price at Amazon. IIRC the brand I wrote about cost about $25 for 2 fl. oz. And a little bit goes a very long way: You’re actually supposed to use it very sparingly. (Overuse *can* make you skin turn blue. That’s much more of a risk with ionic silver than with the colloidal kind. But even with the colloidal kind, why take chances? Just use sparingly!)
Yes, I know about that. As you can imagine, it came up when I was researching the product I wrote about (for the Amazon listing). The seller was extremely conscientious, ethical, and concerned about this issue, too.
But the key phrase here is “consumed a lot.” You’re never supposed to consume a lot! Quite the contrary, in fact. Use very sparingly!
Moreover, in your friend’s case, was it colloidal silver or ionic silver? The risk of that Smurf Effect is much, much greater with ionic silver.
With colloidal silver, if you have a very low concentration (parts per million) of very tiny nanoparticles…then the risk is basically nil.
Bottom line: Nowadays, a reputable brand of colloidal silver, used as directed, is very safe.
Sounds decent. I’ve encountered Survivalists during the Crazy Years of the Eighties who had stockpiles of dried food for themselves and an assault rifle with 100 mags of hollow points for any/everyone else. Even for family.
Which has probably been cleaned out by coronavirus panic.
Last Wednesday local afternoon drive-time radio interviewed the owner of a “prepper” store who had been cleaned out. Completely. Like Y2K all over again. His main anecdote was “a young couple who backed their SUV up and bought over $5000 worth of survival food”. Assuming Jim Bakker’s Christian(TM) survival buckets are overpriced (a reasonable assumption), that comes out to 5-7 years supply for said couple.
“But That’s What THEY Want You To Think!”
(THEY being The Vast Conspiracy of your choosing. The Occult Gnosis of a Secret Cure suppressed by The Conspiracy has been part of quackery since I was reading my grandmother’s stockpile of Prevention magazine as a kid in the 1960s.)
Muff, you KNOW the drill.
(Christianese is SO predictable. You’d think someone who claims to be plugged in to the Source of all Creativity would do or say something original once in a while. That Rabbi from Nazareth was famous for doing and saying the unexpected.)
Cure Anything. Including the classic stop on the tour, Cancer?
What Does the Duck Say?
The big question is…does he weigh the same as a duck?
As prophesied, Ortberg received a standing ovation upon returning to the pulpit today:
https://menlo.church/series/everybodys-welcome-nobodys-perfect-anythings-possible#/modal/message/6029/mlo
The celebrity Christian culture in America is an amazing phenomenon to behold.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cG3PlcSiLA
Headless Unicorn Guy,
“This is our moment to shine” … whew!
Samuel Conner,
“It’s not our goal to hide truth” to me implies that truth has indeed been hidden but that they’re trying to say it’s a side effect rather than a direct goal. It’s very paternalistic and condescending, like a parent trying to shield a young child from hearing about something nasty. We don’t want you to stress about this so we’ll only tell you a bland version of what happened.
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