Wes Feltner Investigation: Claims Are Credible; 9 Marks Now *Helping* Victims Victims of Church Abuse; and a Pastor Tells a Mom With a Wiggly Kid to Leave


Earths Glow, the Moon and a Starry Night Nasa
“This was the view as the International Space Station orbited 256 miles above the Pacific Ocean, southeast of the Hawaiian island chain.”

“My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?”  – C. S. Lewis


 

Wes Feltner: Church Finds Accusations Credible

TWW covered the Wes Feltner situation in 4 posts.

Cognitive Dissonance

Since that time, I’ve followed various folks who believe that Feltner is innocent and the victims are not fully telling the truth of what happened. I haven’t reported on this because this stuff always happens when a pastor is outed for abuse of his clerical position. It is standard fare for sad people who cannot believe their chosen celebrity pastor had a past. This causes cognitive dissonance.

Cognitive dissonance occurs when people, who have invested time and money while assuming that they are smart, can’t accept that they could be that wrong. For those folks let me point out something. The reason these types of pastors get away with their games is because they are just as smart or even smarter than the average person. They have to be in order to do what they do. Even though I watch this stuff, this day in and day out, I know that I could be conned by a charismatic predator.

Here is an example of cognitive dissonance. Cognitive Dissonance: A Child Molester Goes to a Purity Ball. For those of you who want to explore the why’s of this  well known response pattern, here is an article in Psychology Today: Cognitive Dissonance.

The investigation results

As you may remember, when we last visited this subject, the church was hiring an organization to investigate the situation. On 2/5/20, the Star Tribune posted Burnsville church investigation finds abuse allegations made against former pastor are credible.

It didn’t go well for Feltner’s *true believers.*

The Rev. Wes Feltner, a former lead pastor at Berean Baptist Church, was found by the investigation not to be “above reproach,” meaning that he behaved in a shameful way not “free from sinful habits” and deserving of “rebuke or censure” in the eyes of church elders, according to a recent statement from the church to congregants.

A meeting for the congregation was held Jan. 23 to explain the investigation’s results.

…In their statement to the congregation, Berean church elders said they “do love Pastor Wes” and want healing for him and his family, along with Frey and Hendrickson. They are offering the services of a crisis-management psychologist to the parties.

I always wonder what church leaders mean when they say they want healng for a fallen leader, straight out of the gate. I understand using that word for his family and for the victims. I know what I want for Feltner: straight up repentance with no equivocation.

Then, after attempting to make it right for his victims, real healing will begin. Let’s see what happens. I’ve heard rumors that he is considering  starting a new church. If he does, then we know what his answer is to all of this…


9 Marks, the Hotel California of the evangelical Calvinista set, jumps on the “helping the abused in churches.

If you’ve been following this blog, you will know that I am not a fan of 9 Marks. I believe that their system for church membership leads to church abuse. I’ve documented that in numerous posts. Here are a few but do a search on 9 Marks at TWW and you will see a plethora of issues.

I’ve spoken directly with a well known personality in 9 Marks. He absolutely denies that their system leads to abuse. He claims that those which do abuse are merely not applying the precepts correctly. I contend that if Matt Chandler; the golden boy oof TGC,  got it wrong in the Karen Hinckley situation, there is little hope for anyone else getting it right. Instead, he told me I should write about all the wonderful churches getting it right.

Which ones? In the last few months, I spent time helping a West Coast person and an East Coast person (a highly respected professional) get out of their 9 Marks church which decided to play games with retroactive discipline. Usually, in these circumstances, this mean the folks wouldn’t kowtow to the arrogant pastors. Im currently involved in advising others on how to get out of their.church

So, I had a good, long laugh when I reads this article on the 9 Marks website: Some Counsel for Christians Leaving Toxic Church Environments. Talk about cognitive dissonance. Let’s see what they claim.

If you read the beginning of the article, they list some folks who left their churches. None of them were abused by the application of the Hotel California theology of 9 Marks.

To my left, a few of our members—who themselves had left a large church over their former pastor’s egregious moral failures—are praying over another couple who only now have come to reckon with those same discoveries.

In the midst of their *care* for the victims, they cannot help themselves. (Yes, this was written by one person but he is under the authority of the boyz.)

You must never leave your previous church for the wrong reasons.

You don’t want to leave simply because working through difficulties is too taxing.

…We want to receive the broken and the hurting but we don’t want to enable those who turn away from good churches simply because they’ve had a disagreement.

… Just make sure you have done your part to maintain unity

Good churches=those who do it the 9 Marks way. If it was such a church who caused your pain, I predict that they will reject you before you get in the door.

If you say too much about what happened before, you are a bitter person filled with malice.

Notice how this 9 Marks pastor utilizes the spiritualluy abusive terminology of bitterness, vengeance, malice.  They are telling you to shut up and don’t express your pain because it will upset them, especially if it involves one their churches.

This pastor is obviously poorly trained in the pain and suffering of those abused by churches. I would avoid him like the plague.

Others, however, may give in to the allure of “getting it off one’s chest” by bringing it up in nearly every conversation. These people are airing out their grievances, but often in a way that’s fueled by malice, vengeance, or bitterness.

Grow in your grief and *get over it.*

You better show you have hope.

Be prepared to bear the load of emotions that come with the separation. Over time, you’ll discover that anger can rise unexpectedly and take time to subside. You might feel abandonment when friends fail to contact you. You might feel like you’ve lost a family. Sincere believers at your new church will be sympathetic, but they likely won’t understand your situation fully.

…But, as with the loss of dear loved ones in the Lord, we grieve as those who have hope.


Dan Smith, pastor of United Church in Gallatin gets annoyed by a crying child: Facebook

The mother of the woman embarrassed by this outburst posted the following on Facebook.

My daughter and her friend walked out of United Church in Gallatin today after she was pointed out and embarrassed in front of a congregation. The baby in question was 15 months old and just made a peep. Was not crying. As you can see for yourself in this video. How can this pastor call himself a man of God and treat a member of your congregation that way and dont care if anyone is offended. I don’t know what is worse, the embarrassing of a member or the fact he did not care if he offended anyone. So sad in a society where we need to bring our young people to God and they are chased off because they have a young child. I’m sorry, but kids make some noise, And this wasn’t a noise that was distracting. Now, if she was crying, I can see a problem. My daughter was pretty upset and disappointed because she was looking for a church and found this one to be of her liking. Sadly enough, she is back on her quest to find a church that she can feel at home in and raise her baby with the word of God.

You will need to visit the Facebook page to view the video.

Read the comments about this outburst. In my opinion, this pastor was more concerned about himself. If he was upset, he could have quietly handled this after the service. My guess is that Pastor Smith has responded in other situations like similar fashion.

Several folks said she should not have brought her child to church. She could have sat in a outside and listened to the sermon over remote speakers.

I attended a church many years ago. After Abby’s surgeries, I used to sit outside, fearful she would have a seizure and upset everyone. But, I missed being in the church. One of the leaders approached me and encouraged me to bring her in to the church with me. He said people would be delighted to care for us, even if she had a seizure or was squirmy when she wasn’t feeling well. I am so grateful for their caring for me.

Of course, any child (or adult for that matter) who is screaming and not settling down should be taken outside the church doors and calmed down. I do not believe that such was the case in this instance.

By the way, my church has a glassed in room that is actually a part of the main church for parents with children that need help. The parents are part of what is going on. It’s a great idea. However, my church has lots of kids in the service and even has a children’s sermon. Last week, a little girl around 18 months or so, moved into the aisle next to me and proceeded to sway and hum with the music. I absolutely loved it.

So, there’s much to talk about here. I look forward to your comments.

Comments

Wes Feltner Investigation: Claims Are Credible; 9 Marks Now *Helping* Victims Victims of Church Abuse; and a Pastor Tells a Mom With a Wiggly Kid to Leave — 86 Comments

  1. In the 25 years I was a pastor, in all of the 4 churches I served there were moments with happy babies, crying babies, cranky babies, etc. When these babes “interrupted” worship and their mortified parents became upset, I would go into the congregation and happily call attention to these wonderful children. How can you be upset at a BABY? Geeze louise . . .

    As for 9 Marks, absolute power corrupts absolutely . . .

  2. Wow, where does one begin?

    On Feltner:
    So glad someone finally did their job and listened to the victims. How ‘surprising’ that they also uncovered current financial infidelity. I wonder if the elders are making a serious attempt to determine what other irregularities might have occurred under Feltner’s watch?

    On 9marks:
    I can think of few things more ironic than 9marks posting an aricle entitled, “Some Counsel for Christians Leaving Toxic Church Environments”. Nuff said.

    On Pastor Dan Smith:
    What an arrogant $%^&*$%*$*$. Hard to keep it family friendly. Which of course, his church is not. Bail out, folks.

  3. 9 Marks & other authoritarian entities in the religious industrial complex: You must never leave your previous church for the wrong reasons.

    How about – You must never stay in your church for the wrong reasons.

  4. Jesus wasn’t too pleased with disciples who wanted to keep the children out of sight.

    The thought keeps intruding that a lot of present day church officers are kind of like the Synoptic Gospel descriptions of what the apostles were like before the Atonement. The Holy Spirit isn’t yet among them.

  5. “Berean church elders said they “do love Pastor Wes” and want healing for him”
    ++++++++++++++

    yeah, about this ‘healing’….

    for manipulating people, deceiving them, lying to them, using people sexually and emotionally for his own benefit and enjoyment?

    healing??? h-hhhhhealing? like, “poor, poor Wes has been through soooo much”?? preposterous.

    i recommend tar & feathering for starters.

    i’ll arrange the feathers. (what fun)

  6. In one church I attended and loved, there was a couple with an autistic child who was about 12. He did his own thing during the service, playing with toys and quietly whispering with his parents. On occasion he would verbalize during the service and was plainly heard over the pastor. Did anyone complain? Not a soul. We were all glad he and his parents felt accepted and loved just the way they were. There was empathy and brotherly love.
    I had just come from a different large, bordering on mega church. The pastor there was infamous for calling out the parents of children that dared to make a peep. As an usher, I was instructed to escort them out to the lobby. A friend who had his own autistic son was asked to leave because they refused to accommodate this difference.
    My current church is very pro-child. Moms regularly nurse their babies during the service and are encouraged to stay in the sanctuary if the baby is fussy. I think it is quite lovely to see the acceptance and love for the little ones and the parents.

  7. Luckyforward: As for 9 Marks, absolute power corrupts absolutely . . .

    Especially when that power (and corruption) is Cosmically justified with “GOD SAITH!”

  8. Ava Aaronson: 9 Marks & other authoritarian entities in the religious industrial complex: You must never leave your previous church for the wrong reasons.
    How about – You must never stay in your church for the wrong reasons.

    Or, to take this further, you must never split off and start a separate church movement for the wrong reasons. Wrong reasons include a belief that your doctrine and preaching is better than the rest of the church (or “the other churches” as it is often wrongly described) in your locality, and working out your frustrations with thousands of other believers is tedious and difficult.

  9. “9 Marks church….. retroactive discipline.”

    “Dan Smith, pastor of United Church in Gallatin gets annoyed by a crying child”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    this is what friends and family from a country far away have told me:

    “Americans take themselves soooo seriously.”

    yes, i can see that.

    but christian pastors exponentially so.

  10. Someone needs to remind that pastor of something my wife’s Byzantine priest said – that the children are the only ones specifically invited by Jesus.

  11. Nick Bulbeck: Or, to take this further, you must never split off and start a separate church movement for the wrong reasons.

    Remember the theoretical End State of Protestantism?

    MILLIONS of One True Churches, each with Only One Member, each denouncing all the others as Heretics and Apostates?

    According to the original Internet Monk, there was an “A.W.Pink” who actually achieved this end state, the One True Church of One.

  12. “I always wonder what church leaders mean when they say they want healing for a fallen leader, straight out of the gate. I understand using that word for his family and for the victims. I know what I want for Feltner: straight up repentance with no equivocation.”

    There can be no genuine healing without genuine repentance. But should “healing” include restoration to ministry? IMO, when a “pastor” betrays the sacred trust of his congregants to pursue the flesh and not the Spirit, he has forfeited that office permanently.

  13. “I had a good, long laugh when I reads this article on the 9 Marks website: Some Counsel for Christians Leaving Toxic Church Environments. Talk about cognitive dissonance.” (Dee)

    Good Lord! There couldn’t be a more toxic church environment than one affiliated with 9 Marks! Built on an arrogant and authoritarian foundation of New Calvinist belief and practice, 9 Marks came along to impose more bondage of church members by hanging the threat of discipline over their heads. And if you are a female believer, you get an extra dose of toxin.

  14. “article on the 9 Marks website: Some Counsel for Christians Leaving Toxic Church Environments.” (Dee)

    There has been a flurry of such articles and sermons in New Calvinism. Perhaps they are getting concerned about folks leaving ‘their’ toxic churches and trying to shame members into silence. The “don’t gossip” rebuke from the new reformers is getting old … informing and warning others about snares laid for them in New Calvinism is not gossip; it is the right thing to do.

  15. “Hey ushers, can you please show them where the nursery is. I don’t want to struggle with a child the whole time.” (“Pastor” Dan Smith)

    “Leave the children alone, and do not forbid them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” (Jesus)

  16. Honestly, Dee, I don’t think they *have* to be all that smart to get away with things if they are continually given passes for obviously abhorrent behavior!

  17. “One of the leaders approached me and encouraged me to bring her in to the church with me. He said people would be delighted to care for us, even if she had a seizure or was squirmy when she wasn’t feeling well. I am so grateful for their caring for me.” (Dee)

    “I just don’t think that we understand how massive our impact is on other people’s lives.” (“Pastor” Dan Smith)
    https://www.unitedchurchgallatin.org/recent-messages/2020/1/22/1-19-20-fully-avail-pt-2

  18. “Others, however, may give in to the allure of “getting it off one’s chest” by bringing it up in nearly every conversation. These people are airing out their grievances, but often in a way that’s fueled by malice, vengeance, or bitterness.”

    Brings to mind this verse, which does not appear reserved for the sheared sheep but for all:
    1 Timothy 5:20 — “But those sinning, rebuke before all, so that the rest might have fear as well.”

    Is anyone likely to have this fear if what occurs is a mumbled and vague “mistakes were made / if anyone was offended / oops” made once (perhaps to a select few)? Also, shocked and stunned that the aggrieved’s right to react in a way that may involve addressing the wrong more than once and perhaps with outrage is met with what “often” can amount to strawman language that levies judgment on how one is to react. As a bonus, that includes judgment calls on what one might feel is malicious, bitter, and vengeful, which “often” can be used by autocrats and those covering for the perps and wolves to shut down valid criticism in order to escape consequences as they play the “forgiveness / I already said oops / restoration after a season / you’re bad if you don’t forgive and move on” time biding game.

    So basically, don’t allow the aggrieved as well as the church body time to examine the matter closely and feel real emotion, but instead spend your energies self-imposing gag orders (‘cuz allure of talking about it too much and perhaps affecting branding) and support those who would spin grieving and hurt as bitterness, maliciousness, etc; is that about right?

  19. Max: “I just don’t think that we understand how massive our impact is on other people’s lives.” (“Pastor” Dan Smith)

    That’s one kind of impact, anyway (and not a positive one)…

  20. “The investigation also determined that Feltner intentionally misused his church credit card, which church officials said will be offset by reducing the amount they agreed to pay him when he resigned.”

    What a shock that having a hard look at things with the goal of accountability and oversight rather than gushing about positives of ministry as occurred in the comments section of past Feltner articles (which in some cases came with dismissals of what was alleged or casting it as irrelevant because of passage of time) yielded more questionable matters.

    Waiting to hear if intentional misuse of a credit card just a matter of maturity for some like the other issue, even though it also is on the 1 Tim 3/ Titus 1 pastoral no-no list. Also, how neat that unlike in the business world (into which many churches regularly cross over), dude isn’t at present going to face charges but rather a reduced payout / parachute reduction! Amazing how entities enmeshing themselves in the secular side of things as they feel like it then exempt themselves from real-world consequences, so often to the benefit of those vesting themselves with “authority” under custom-tailored parameters.

    Plus, no charges means dude is set up for a “season” of laying low before either going a new church route, an educational institution route, or a secular book selling / seminar route or what have you. No wonder so many hirelings and grievous wolves find and keep homes in the Christian Industrial Complex, especially with so many in churches and parachurches inclined to give fellow autocrats a pass — all with heaping doses of misapplied prooftexts at the ready.

  21. We also have a childrens sermon!!! I absolutely love that.

    On the kid crying in church, saw that video…what kind of pastor doesn’t have a kind, probably funny, response to these sorts of things at the ready? A really bad one imo.

    sidenote: one of the kids dropped something at a recent service and it rolled down towards the stage under 15 pews before somebody caught it. It was funny. The pastor kept preaching. The world didn’t end.

  22. Max: “Leave the children alone, and do not forbid them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” (Jesus)

    Amen Max!
    Said ‘Pastor’ should be ashamed of himself.

  23. JDV: no charges means dude is set up for a “season” of laying low before either going a new church route, an educational institution route, or a secular book selling / seminar route or what have you

    Mr. Feltner will do alright. His touch of charisma and gift of gab will carry him far. My guess is that he’ll disappear for the usual 12-24 month season wherever bad-boy preachers go to be restored, then emerge “repentant” and energized for a new & improved ministry; his loyal followers will be waiting anxiously for his return (like Driscoll, Tullian, Noble, etc.). Good Lord! When will this madness end?!!

  24. “My daughter was pretty upset and disappointed because she was looking for a church …”

    “Refuge failed me; no man cared for my soul.” (Psalm 142:4)

  25. Lea: On the kid crying in church, saw that video … what kind of pastor doesn’t have a kind, probably funny, response to these sorts of things at the ready?

    “Pastor” is the key word.

  26. JDV,

    “Waiting to hear if intentional misuse of a credit card just a matter of maturity…

    …Also, how neat that unlike in the business world (into which many churches regularly cross over), dude isn’t at present going to face charges but rather a reduced payout / parachute reduction! Amazing how entities enmeshing themselves in the secular side of things as they feel like it then exempt themselves from real-world consequences, so often to the benefit of those vesting themselves with “authority” under custom-tailored parameters.

  27. I used to attend a silent Quaker meeting, where every word spoken between the silences was believed to be prompted by God. This included the words of children.

    In Quaker worship, the first comment is supposed to set a theme that others follow. So one morning, we all sat in silence for awhile, and then a tiny boy reached his arms up toward his father and said, “Hold me, Daddy. Hold me.”

    Others took up the little boy’s message throughout the hour. It was quite wonderful.

    “And a little child shall lead them.”

  28. Max: My guess is that he’ll disappear for the usual 12-24 month season wherever bad-boy preachers go to be restored, then emerge “repentant” and energized for a new & improved ministry; his loyal followers will be waiting anxiously for his return (like Driscoll, Tullian, Noble, etc.).

    You might want to add Mancow’s former bud JMac (formerly of Harvest Bible Chapel). He’s hitting the comeback trail, claiming God told him to through the prophesying of some guy at a gas station in Colorado.

  29. Headless Unicorn Guy: You might want to add Mancow’s former bud JMac (formerly of Harvest Bible Chapel). He’s hitting the comeback trail, claiming God told him to through the prophesying of some guy at a gas station in Colorado.

    To sell more stuff, of course! “You, yes YOU, can have a brand new series to guide you to starting your very own home church! I’ve made a whole video and book series for you to purchase… wait, don’t listen to those tapes! That wasn’t me! It was a conspiracy!!”

  30. Luckyforward: When these babes “interrupted” worship and their mortified parents became upset, I would go into the congregation and happily call attention to these wonderful children.

    What?!! You mean you allowed an interruption to your sermon points to do that?!! I understand that “Pastor” Smith is quite the preacher. Just before his rebuke of that mother and her child, he was getting ready to launch a fantastic sermon on the congregation. Scripture has the following word for him:

    “If I speak with the eloquence of men and of angels, but have no love, I become no more than blaring brass or crashing cymbal.” (1 Cor 13:1)

    I was young and now am old. I’ve heard a lot of brass and cymbals coming from pulpits, but also witnessed the love of genuine pastors when little ones let their presence be known.

  31. That pastor has no class. The right way to respond to such a situation is to drily note:

    “that son’s gone wibbly”

  32. Samuel Conner,

    At a wedding, the celebrant grinned and said, “Every wedding needs a baby soloist.”*

    *OK, he actually said “baby obbligato,” but I had to look it up later. It means, “an instrumental part, typically distinctive in effect, which is integral to a piece of music and should not be omitted in performance.”

  33. So one of the best memories of my first pastorate was when I was doing a children’s sermon about singing. I asked all the kids to sing their favorite song. They ranged from “Jesus Loves Me” to “Jesus Loves the Little Children.” Little but did I know that a 5 year old girl grabbed the mic from my hand and started singing her favorite song . . .

    “WHEN YOU’VE GOT THE TIME, WE’VE GOT THE BEER, MILLER BEER. MILLER TASTES TOO GOOD TO HURRY THROUGH. WHEN IT’S TIME TO RELAX, MILLER COMES CLEAR, BEER AFTER BEER. IF YOU’VE GOT THE TIME, WE’VE GOT THE BEER, MILLER BEER!”

    Though the parents were sliding below the pew, it was a happy moment in which a congregation laughed – not at the little girl – but at a collective moment of authenticity about being real in the house of God.

    And besides, this occurred in Chapel Hill, NC – at the time the “keg capital” of the world!

  34. Luckyforward,

    How utterly beautiful!
    To see the body of Jesus in his full humanity; no pretense, no false perfectionism, no cloaked-over horse poo-poo, just the real McCoy.

  35. Max:
    “I always wonder what church leaders mean when they say they want healing for a fallen leader, straight out of the gate. I understand using that word for his family and for the victims. I know what I want for Feltner: straight up repentance with no equivocation.”

    There can be no genuine healing without genuine repentance.But should “healing” include restoration to ministry?IMO, when a “pastor” betrays the sacred trust of his congregants to pursue the flesh and not the Spirit, he has forfeited that office permanently.

    Ezekiel 44:10-16. Levites who left God to chase after idols and led the people of Israel into sin could still serve but were disqualified from the priesthood when the temple was restored, because they “must bear the consequences of their sin.” Max, you might be, dare I say it, “biblical” in this line of thinking.

  36. Friend:
    I used to attend a silent Quaker meeting, where every word spoken between the silences was believed to be prompted by God. This included the words of children.

    In Quaker worship, the first comment is supposed to set a theme that others follow. So one morning, we all sat in silence for awhile, and then a tiny boy reached his arms up toward his father and said, “Hold me, Daddy. Hold me.”

    Others took up the little boy’s message throughout the hour. It was quite wonderful.

    “And a little child shall lead them.”

    This makes my heart smile.

  37. elastigirl,

    And I’ll heat the tar.

    Yes, the church needs to get past their love fest for lying, manipulative, abusive false teachers. This man does not need ‘healing’ – he needs to be called the phony that he is and kicked out on his rear.

    Only if, and when, he admits to and repents of being a lying, manipulative, abusive false teacher should any church welcome him back into the fold. But never into the pulpit.

  38. Wild Honey: Ezekiel 44:10-16. Levites who left God to chase after idols and led the people of Israel into sin could still serve but were disqualified from the priesthood when the temple was restored, because they “must bear the consequences of their sin.”

    Add to that … there are no examples in the New Testament of pastors who failed morally being restored to preaching/teaching ministry. Forgive them if they repent? Certainly! Restore them to the pulpit? NO! There are other areas for them to serve as Christians.

  39. Max:
    Luckyforward,

    OK, confess pastor … was that ‘your’ little girl?

    LOL – no, I was still about 5 years from being a father at that point, but I loved her as my own!

  40. Muff Potter,

    An interesting aside to this moment. Some church members learned – long before I ever heard – that the little girl’s parents were so embarrassed at what their child sang, they were not going to come back to church. (They were relatively new to the community and had not joined the church.) Two families reached out to the family, helped them to feel loved and accepted, and the family became wonderful children’s workers in the church.

  41. Luckyforward,

    Your story reminded me of the disruptive little boy who was being carried from the sanctuary by his father, kicking and screaming all the way. As he left, he shouted to the congregation “Pray for me!”

  42. Friend: baby obbligato

    This is great.

    Honestly, in addition to being somewhat bad people, any public speaker who can’t deal with a predictable thing like a baby crying is bad at what they are doing.

  43. Max,

    Another example of “selective” use of scripture. (Note, I agree not always reinstating a fallen pastor, just like not reinstating a convicted drunk airline pilot)… my point is that just playing the “forgiveness” NT card, without recognizing the consequence of forgiven “sin” is not a “Biblical position”…. taken as a whole, the Bible is full of the “consequences” of bad behavior, with or without “forgiveness”
    One of the BIG problems in American Christianity is text proofing…. Quote a verse to support “your position”, and one can “ shut down” the disagreement…. never mind one can probably find other verses that support, at least partly, “the other side”…

  44. Jeffrey Chalmers: “selective” use of scripture … one can “ shut down” the disagreement

    Sometimes the selected scripture just feels right, regardless of the argument against it.

  45. Max: carried from the sanctuary by his father,

    My boys were about 2 and 4 yrs when my brother got married; as I was participating in the wedding, my husband was charged with watching them in the pew. We’d brought toys for them, but of course they decided to fight over who got which ones, so he ended up carrying them out of the service, one under each arm.
    The photographer was ready, and my sister-in-law says it’s one of her favorite wedding pictures.

  46. Luckyforward: “WHEN YOU’VE GOT THE TIME, WE’VE GOT THE BEER, MILLER BEER

    What a great story! Including of the family being welcomed into the church.
    I will also admit to singing ’99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall’ with my kids to distract them on a long hike when I couldn’t think of another long song on spur of the moment.

  47. Jeffrey Chalmers: One of the BIG problems in American Christianity is text proofing…. Quote a verse to support “your position”, and one can “ shut down” the disagreement…. never mind one can probably find other verses that support, at least partly, “the other side”…

    DUELING SCRIPTURES – Two Fundies Arguing
    (to the tune of “Dueling Banjos”)

    “QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE-QUOTE!”
    “QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE!”
    “QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE!”
    “QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE!”
    “QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE!”
    (Long guitar riff; Fundies quit Quoting and go directly for each others’ throats with fingernails and teeth.)

  48. readingalong: The photographer was ready, and my sister-in-law says it’s one of her favorite wedding pictures.

    Because this is one of those things that happen IRL.
    Reality is a lot messier (and crazier) than mathematical equations or theological axioms.

  49. Jeffrey Chalmers: Quote a verse to support “your position”, and one can “ shut down” the disagreement….

    The Moonies were more honest about calling them “Thoughtstoppers”.

  50. Jeffrey Chalmers: One of the BIG problems in American Christianity is text proofing…. Quote a verse to support “your position”, and one can “ shut down” the disagreement…. never mind one can probably find other verses that support, at least partly, “the other side”…

    American Evangelicalism would do well to learn from Rabbinic Judaism in this regard.
    Their approach (Judaism) is not one of ‘cast in concrete’ for all points of this, that, and the other; but rather, this, that, and the other are all interconnected in ways that are not necessarily black and white binaries.

  51. MuffPotter,

    I said this elsewhere, but I think Judaism has done a better job dealing with the ‘difficult’ passages and stuff in the bible than we have.

  52. Lea:
    MuffPotter,

    I said this elsewhere, but I think Judaism has done a better job dealing with the ‘difficult’ passages and stuff in the bible than we have.

    Judaism says “Yes, this is a Hard One. Rabbi A says This about it, Rabbi B sees it This way, Rabbi C…”

    American Fundagelicalism tends to follow the Wahabi Islamic approach more than anything else: “IT IS WRITTEN! IT IS WRITTEN! IT IS WRITTEN!” Word for Word direct from God’s lips in Kynge Jaymes Englyshe instead of Classic Meccan Arabic.

  53. Muff Potter: Their approach (Judaism) is not one of ‘cast in concrete’ for all points of this, that, and the other; but rather, this, that, and the other are all interconnected in ways that are not necessarily black and white binaries.

    Judaism always strikes me as being a LOT more in touch with Reality.
    Earthy instead of throetically abstract.
    The respect for learning and sense of humor (both of which are rare to nonexistent among Fundagelicals) also help.

  54. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Judaism values critical thinking….. there is a reason there are so many scientist that are Jewish… especially when you consider the relatively small number of Jews in the world..

  55. The momma is lucky the pastor showed his true colors before she joined and invested heart and time into that church.

  56. FunnyNameToCome: The momma is lucky the pastor showed his true colors before she joined

    Hopefully, those who have already joined will take a closer look at his colors now.

  57. Slightly ot, but I just read this garbage, or at least a paragraph of it:

    “When we talk about the abuse of women, I would go on record as stating that if we ask a woman to do something spiritually that God did not intend for her to do—that’s abusive.”

    Apparently this is a founders comment. Pay not attention to the man behind the curtain of actual abuse, let’s rename other stuff that’s actually not harmful as abuse instead! Ugh.

    http://www.deliveredbygrace.com/why-asking-women-to-preach-is-spiritual-abuse/

  58. Ken: The comments on that article arw interesting.

    Iirc, one just let loose with f bombs and honestly that’s my reaction to a lot of it. I have no patience for these people, (including the ones having a go at aimee byrd which I also read today and may be confusing with this one idk).

  59. Slight tangent, but Lesley and I are meeting up tomorrow with some friends we haven’t seen in the 20 years since we left the church congregation in which we first got to know them. And I realised something today while FaceTubing with them and a few other folk we used to know there.

    I’ve been calling this group a “cult” or a “business” here in Wartburg. But I’ve been wrong about that. In fact it was a group of followers of Jesus, that was steadily taken over by a self-serving and deeply divisive individual who created a dominant faction (or the fear of one) unconditionally loyal to himself. As you’d expect, he made the whole culture subordinate to his corporate and political influence, which he passed off as “spiritual authority”. As you’d also expect, when we finally rejected his claim to rule over our personal lives, he used his influence to declare us anathema and cut us off from the group as far as he possibly could. As a result, we lost many friends – at the same time, they also lost us and the result was that the body of Christ was injured by this person’s actions.

    We know that there remain some who are factionally loyal to this person. Insofar as we too were sucked in by this deception once, we don’t judge them – though we must keep clear of them as they live out the consequences of their choice. But there are many others who are not, and during 2020 we want to set about repairing the damage this person has done.

  60. Nick Bulbeck: Insofar as we too were sucked in by this deception once, we don’t judge them – though we must keep clear of them as they live out the consequences of their choice.

    Wise words.

  61. TS00,

    “And I’ll heat the tar.”
    +++++++++==

    well, i think i read that heated tar was on the barbaric side. how about trying to create a queen mutha’ of all nuissances instead.

    let’s take liquid nails and treacle syrup (an english thing), mix it together real good and use that.

    sticky-n-sweet!

    then i’ll abscond with my kid’s ant farm,…

  62. Lea,

    Like… not use the spiritual gifts God gave her because they don’t fit a mere human’s definition of “Biblical womanhood?” The parable of the talents is equally applicable to both men and women, I suspect.

  63. Nick Bulbeck:
    But there are many others who are not, and during 2020 we want to set about repairing the damage this person has done.

    Wishing you smooth sailing on this journey.

  64. Nick Bulbeck: But there are many others who are not, and during 2020 we want to set about repairing the damage this person has done.

    That is really beautiful Nick. Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called children of God.

  65. Nick Bulbeck: a belief that your doctrine and preaching is better than the rest of the church

    Hubris.

    OTOH, everyone practices their own theology, so to each his/her own.

    But to claim that one’s path is the best for all? Yes, as you point out, that’s playing god.

    I like the way Simon Sinek talks about finding people with the same values, and then collaborating. No one is convincing anyone else. Just finding & working together on common ground.

  66. IN RE: WES FELTNER & BEREAN ELDERS

    While I’m well aware that I’m imperfect and fail my Savior daily,in numerous ways, I’m also aware that Jesus detested when the spiritual leaders of His day put burdens on people that were illegitimate. He was angered by those who used the Word of God to achieve their own purposes. Having read the Berean elders statement, I observe:

    1. the Berean elders allowed Wes Feltner (I refuse to call him a pastor) to use the imprimatur of the church to accuse and malign his accusers for not “applying Matthew 18” in their attempts to “ruin his career”. Feltner claimed that he had asked to meet with the woman but they had refused. Factually correct but an inversion of the so called “Matthew 18 principle”. One would have hoped that upon examination the “elders” of Berean would have recognized what so obviously occurred. Fully adhering to Matthew 18, the young ladies DID confront Wes Feltner, 17 years ago, AS BIBLICALLY CALLED FOR! Denied meaningful repentance or even apology, the young ladies took the next step in the process, to bring a witness to appeal to Feltner. In short, he refused to confess and repent when confronted by his victims as well as additional witnesses, instead continuing in “the ministry”, even though he himself knew that his ministry should be OVER. The next step in the Matthew 18 process is for those sinned against to “tell it to the church”. These young women, waited 17 years for Feltner to confess and repent of his sin toward them, exhibiting longsuffering and perhaps, hope against hope. They are still waiting. Instead, the Berean elders add insult to their injury by ignoring this basic Christian principle in their statement, demonstrating that they know little of applying Biblical principles and should therefore immediately resign! Their “investigation” were it actually attempting to discover truth, should have commended the woman for adhering to the Matthew 18 principle and asked their forgiveness for allowing Feltner to misapply it publicly from their pulpit.

    2. Having so obviously and publicly failed to apply Biblical principles, the elders continue to drag Jesus’ name through the mud by deciding to pay severance to a man who resigned. Although the details haven’t yet been made public it is conceivable that Feltner resigned to prevent a more comprehensive and thorough examination of his behavior. In any event, having resigned, Feltner is not due any severance, especially when it is well established that he was making plans to leave Berean. Announcing this severance and the fact that they (the elders) “love Pastor Wes” and desire his healing and will make counseling available for Wes and his family amounts to mis-use of non-profit funds. They demonstrate not compassion but a willingness to misuse the congregants donations. Wes Feltner resigned, perhaps to prevent further investigation and was actively preparing to (at the very least) leave Berean, ALL while operating treacherously and falsely toward his employers and those who pay his salary. For rewarding this behavior with severance, counseling and well wishes, the elders AGAIN should immediately resign.

    3. While reporting their findings to the church, the report references “significant, intentional misuse of his church credit card for personal use. While padding their report with this information in an attempt to show how thorough and serious their inquiry was, it completely leaves aside the failure of the elders to institute basic business management practices that would have uncovered this abuse years ago. All reputable non-profits must audit their own executives and employees in multiple ways to avoid misuse of donated funds. The fact that the Berean elders have failed to do so, indicts them again. For the failure to be active, careful stewards of donated funds, they should immediately resign.

  67. Believer: While reporting their findings to the church, the report references “significant, intentional misuse of his church credit card for personal use …

    … and, thus, reduced his severance package by that amount! What?!! Significant misuse of the church credit card and you still pay the man severance! Uhhhh, a better deal for the church would be to not pay any severance and ask Mr. Feltner to pay back those funds. In their statement to the congregation, Berean church elders said they “do love Pastor Wes” … well, they should also love the pewsitters where those dollars came from and get their money back! (I suppose you can sense that I’m getting tired of these “pastors” taking the church for a ride, abusing congregants, and then moving on to minister somewhere else)

  68. “The women alleged that Feltner “leveraged his role, power and age to take advantage for his own benefit” while leading a youth group in Indiana, according to the church’s statement.”

    http://www.startribune.com/burnsville-church-investigation-finds-abuse-allegations-made-against-former-pastor-are-credible/567566252/

    Youth pastors who do this should never reach “lead pastor” rank … but many do throughout the organized church (remember the Houston Chronicle report?). The American church needs to seriously rethink its youth ministry model. Putting flesh-babies in charge of other flesh-babies is not a good idea … hormones are waiting to happen. Turning a 20-something inexperienced and unproven young man loose on the youth group is a risky blueprint for doing church with our children.

  69. Friend:
    I used to attend a silent Quaker meeting, where every word spoken between the silences was believed to be prompted by God. This included the words of children.

    In Quaker worship, the first comment is supposed to set a theme that others follow. So one morning, we all sat in silence for awhile, and then a tiny boy reached his arms up toward his father and said, “Hold me, Daddy. Hold me.”

    Others took up the little boy’s message throughout the hour. It was quite wonderful.

    “And a little child shall lead them.”

    I absolutely love this. This and other reasons are why I have felt drawn to attend a Quaker meeting.

  70. Re Wiggly toddler in church-
    At the risk of sounding like a broken record, extolling the virtues of my LCMS Lutheran Church- our services are full of babies and toddlers, some wiggly, some noisy,some quiet. Parents leave if the noise level becomes distracting. There is a nursery, but no pressure to use it. Kids are part of the church, aren’t they? The only time our children were not welcome in church was years ago while attending a trendy Calvinist congregation that had Mark Driscoll books in the bookstore. It was a “check your kids in at the door”kind of thing. Our occasionally disrupted, all inclusive group is a picture of what real life looks like. And very reverent. Pastors who have a high opinion of themselves don’t like any interruptions, right?

  71. Laura: “check your kids in at the door”

    When our daughter was in college, she played piano at a rural Southern Baptist church. The church only had two rooms – the sanctuary and a small room where the children had Sunday School. There was no running water – bathroom facilities were outdoor toilets. Kids weren’t checked at the door, but hugged and loved in the sanctuary. The pastor had the spiritual ability to stay on track when babies cried, and the congregation didn’t appear to be bothered by them. It was one of the most loving churches we ever attended … pastor and members were real-deal Christians … you knew it by the love that had for one another. I’ll take a wiggly child over a wiggly “pastor” any day!

  72. Hi Dee,
    I actually got a message from the mother of this girl after reaching out to her. Apparently the child barely made a noise at all when he stopped his sermon to address her. Second he refused to respond to the media and anyone else stating that God told him he didn’t need to respond to it because he did nothing wrong. If you listen to the Wednesday service after the event he responds to the congregation defending himself and addressing the mother as a little girl. His entire sermon was nothing but defending his bad behavior. Then he inducted a pastor friend to continue on in defense of him and all over a situation he created to begin. So the person who offended made himself out to be the victim and the victim the offender. According to the mother he never acknowledged the offense when apologizing to them. They didn’t get the sense it was an apology which is why she kept her post up.
    If this guy treats his congregation like this when questioned or if a real abuse case comes up in his church imagine what his response will be when going into self protection mode!!!!

  73. Here’s the mother’s text on fb to me.

    I didn’t watch his Wednesday sermon. I did get a bunch of mixed feelings when I attended Sunday’s service. My heart wanted to believe he was being sincere, but my brain kept telling me it was for show. They did hire the local police department for church that day due to some threats that they allegedly received. You are right though, he didn’t really acknowledge his mistake during his apology on stream. However his words were different when we met that Saturday before in a private meeting. He said when we met that he didn’t know what he was thinking or even why “a small noise” bothered him. Said it must have been the devil. But in the service he doesn’t defend my daughter against the mean comments, mostly regarding her LOUD child, but defended the comments against himself. There is a reason my post is still available to see and share. This is the reason, as you have said, there are concerns of his response. I didn’t mean for it to go viral but I feel it did for the good. Thanks for your insight. Makes my own insight not looks so cruel.

  74. Laura: Pastors who have a high opinion of themselves don’t like any interruptions, right?

    Interrupts their dewy-eyed praise and adoration of the guy they see in the mirror.