Another Discouraging Word from John Piper: Did My Dad Die Due to My Lack Of Faith?


Jupiter’s Clouds

“’You would not have called to me unless I had been calling to you,’ said the Lion.” —CS Lewis -The Silver Chair


This week will be busy.

  • Tomorrow, I will be posting a statement about recent events on Twitter. I think I need to say something since I am not backing down.
  • On Wednesday, I will be posting an update about a reader who is being sued by her pastor.
  • On Friday, I will post a very important story about a 5 year old boy, son of a SBC pastor,  who was molested by the teenage son of a church leader. It was reported to law enforcement. Guess who lost his job? Better yet, guess which mom, a teacher in a Christian school in town, lost her job? I bet they wouldn’t be invited to be *Caring Well speakers either since it appear that reporting your SBC abuser does not get one an invitation for speaking roles.

John Piper: Are you are being punished for not having enough faith and that caused your dad with brain cancer to die?

Today, it is my wish to bring peace to those of you who have been victimized by crappy theology, especially hardcore Reformed Baptist theology,  which implies that God may be punishing a loved one with death because you don’t have enough faith. It should come as no purpose

Some poor man who just lost his dad to brain cancer came to John Piper for advice (His first mistake) in Did My Dad Die Because I Lacked Faith? Or did he come to Piper for comfort-a super, really bad idea?

My answer up front: The mere fact that this man is worried about this gives us the answer to the question. The reason he is worried means he is a man of faith. Sadly,  he has been taught that God is out there with a scale, measuring if this man’s faith is good enough to heal his dying father.

This is a God who is out there waiting catch you being less than what should be expected while on your path to true sanctification.

You ask, “If I had more faith, would my dad be alive today?” Here’s my answer: I don’t know. The reason I can say that, and still believe in the sovereign will of God working all things according to his infinite wisdom, including life and death, is that James said we have not because we ask not (James 4:2). We have not because we ask not.

…Would more people have been converted to Christ when I preached, if I had prayed more in preparation? If I had preached with greater earnestness and tears? If I had prepared a better sermon, and not given people so many distractions in the way I stumbled around? If I had looked people in the eye and communicated greater personal compassion? If I had put my sin of pride and self-consciousness to death more effectively? If I too had had more faith, would more people have been converted?

…And my answer is that I don’t know. I don’t know. What I do know is that I would go insane if I had to figure that out every time I preached —

The fallacy that you should only be just a little bit disobedient

Steven Lawson at Ligonier Ministries demonstrates Piper’s working thesis in You Just Need to Obey.

This does not mean that a Christian can ascend to sinless perfection. This will never be realized this side of glory. Neither does it imply that a believer will never disobey God again. Isolated acts of disobedience will still occur. But the new birth does give a new heart that desires to obey the Word.

Instead, I would say that this is something that a former pastor called *cooking the books.*  If we were all honest, we would admit that we are regularly disobedient. We know we shouldn’t be, but we know that even our motives are mixed. (Something else that my former pastor used to regularly discuss.)

We should always want to be obedient even thought we know sometimes we don’t really want to be.

Yes, our faith in Jesus gives us the *want to* to try to be obedient. But we know we also know that no matter how much we want to be *good,* we know we aren’t.

Part of the our disobedience means that we will never be perfectly faithful enough. We will pray for healing and we will doubt.

I am the best example of this. When my daughter was diagnosed with her brain tumor, I saw her initial CT and I knew we were in deep trouble. Her tumor was huge. After her first surgery, we received the bad news that it was rapid growing and that it had such a well developed blood supply that they had to close early due to severe bleeding.

I so wanted her to live. I prayed and begged God to let us keep her. But, in truth, I believed that she would probably die. So many Christian families have lost their children to cancer. So, why wouldn’t that be our lot? I prayed for her healing but accepted that it would probably not happen. I’d say that was pretty darn weak faith according to Piper’s lofty views on the matter.

And yet, she lived. This Friday she is flying to Senegal to serve as a critical care nurse on the Mercy Ship for a couple of weeks. Pretty darn awesome.

The good news: Jesus knows our faith is weak and He does not punish others if we don’t get it perfectly right because He alone knows we won’t.

There is a reason I love the service at my church. We hear from Scripture and then from the sermon. We have a time of confession-for sins known and unknown. I have a theory that we don’t know a whole bunch about those unknown sins. Our pastor assures us that our sins our forgiven. Then we get to participate in communion, a joyous celebrations because our sins are forgiven.

God is not judging the passion of your faith. He knows it has its ups and down.

I know a God who does not need your super duper really awesome faith or judge your imperfect faith. He does not punish your loved ones if you don’t pray for healing perfectly. I know because I met Him many years ago as I watched my daughter survive two serious neurosurgeries with my decidedly sketchy faith. I serve a God who knows perfection can’t be achieved by us.  I know that God knows our friends at Ligonier fail in their obedience which goes far beyond an isolated whoops or two. He knows they are *cooking the books,* virtue signaling to us that they are pretty darn good (but pretend they are the worst sinners they know.

I’m glad to be hanging with folks who admit that their disobedience happens more frequently, who repent of that, and know that Jesus loves and forgives them anyway.

Does John Piper lack social skills like empathy?

Let’s make this simple…maybe?

Comments

Another Discouraging Word from John Piper: Did My Dad Die Due to My Lack Of Faith? — 99 Comments

  1. I guess I did not have enough faith to be 1,2 or 3 on this post. Or maybe it simply was not ordained from the beginning of time?

  2. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    I’m not going to read this, because I have much to do today, and part of it involves a git merge. (This is likely to exact a heavy emotional toll on its own, so I don’t need any more. GBTC probably knows what I’m talking about here.)

    So, I’m taking the phrase “because he makes christianity look intelligent” somewhat out of context here. But the obvious question is: makes it “look intelligent” to whom, exactly?

  3. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    The man is talking about himself in the third person and sounds like a blissed out hippie.

    Is Magistos snarky before the coffee in the morning?
    Suppose so. Homewood Star blend from O’Henrys Coffee House in Birmingham is excellent, by the way.

  4. Jesus said “if you have faith of a mustard seed …” (Matt. 17:20. A mustard seed is a tiny seed compared to other seeds like an avocado seed, etc. Jesus didn’t say you need seed of a mountain! In Mark 9:20-29 a boy who was demon possessed was brought to Jesus by his loving father. The father said to Jesus “… if you can do anything, take pity on us!” Jesus responded, “If you can? All things are possible to him who believes.” And immediately the boy’s father cried out, “I do believe; help my unbelief.” Obviously, God often doesn’t heal, but he is capable of that. And it isn’t based on our “faith in our faith.” The father’s prayer in Mark 9 is a great prayer, “Help my unbelief!” Our faith is in God and His character. He is all powerful, all wise, loving, etc., and he may choose to heal and He may not choose to heal but I will still choose to love him and walk with him. Like 3 friends in Daniel to Nebuchadnezzar, our God is able to deliver us, but he might not choose to do that, but we still worship him and won’t bow to your statue. So the answer from John Piper is unfortunate. PS – thankful to hear of good report on your daughter!

  5. While the basis of our walk with God is faith, it is not being “liberal” to also have some reason about our faith. On one hand, we perceive God from the scriptures as “grace” because it really is amazing. But alongside “grace” Neo-Cals paint the picture of this vengeful, fearsome God that while He loves us, is ready to mete out his judgment if we are imperfect because he is all knowing and everything has been planned out before us. For theology to make any sense, there must be some consistency, and “God who loves me” alongside a “God who is out to get me” is not consistent.

    Do we really subscribe to Jonathan Edwards’s sermon “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” and that God is just waiting for the chance to drop us into the flames?

    Or may we consider that we live in a blighted, imperfect world because of sin. In this “imperfection” we find terrorists, drunk drivers, cancer cells, abusers of all sorts. Yet alongside us in this imperfection is a Philippians 4:13 risen Christ who makes us able to triumph. By faith we find ourselves challenged to be transformed and find hope in the midst of hopelessness.

    One of the major growth points for all of us as Christians is to decide based on our own study, reflection, and experience what God’s role is in our lives and world. He is either a deterministic being and we are puppets hanging on to the end waiting to find our our eternal destiny. Or he is a loving, graceful, patient being who stands forgivingly with us for our poor choices and sin, still loving us which makes us able to live in an imperfect world, now and forevermore.

    There may be some theological comfort for some in a God who has it all pre-planned and pre-ordained, but I find a greater peace in a God who believes in me enough to make my own choices, poor as they may be at times, but has as much faith in me as I do him.

  6. Piper’s answer just flies in such opposition to his theology! These Calvinist reformed guys believe EVERYTHING that happens is God’s sovereign will, so what differnce would our measure faith in any given situation matter anyway? As they say in the south, he’s talking out of both sides of his mouth.

  7. I gave up a long time ago expecting Piper to say anything meaningful to people of faith. What continues to amaze me is that there are millions who haven’t, who still hang on to his every tweet as truth.

  8. Anna: Piper’s answer just flies in such opposition to his theology!

    It’s never stopped him before. His inconsistency makes him a confusing mess – but his followers assume the fact they cannot understand him is evidence of his superior intellect.

  9. Ken F (aka Tweed): his followers assume the fact they cannot understand him is evidence of his superior intellect

    “Sometimes you’re sure dogs have some secret, superior intelligence, and other times you know they’re only their simple, goofy selves.” (Deb Caletti)

  10. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    I’ve wondered about the same question. If a person reads “Young, Restless, Reformed” I think he or she will get a much better answer than the one Piper supplies.

    Piper was given a platform by Louie Giglio in the Passion Conferences and thousands of young people disillusioned with the shallow, seeker-sensitive Christianity taught back at their home churches found what they thought was a greater depth in Piper’s teachings (which draw a lot from Jonathan Edwards, considered by some to be perhaps the greatest American intellectual). Pair that with Piper’s focus on theistic determinism (what he calls “sovereignty”) and he really appealed to young people wrestling in traditions where they were concerned about drumming up enough faith to make sure they didn’t fall away.

    He appeared on the evangelical stage at just the right time to capture the moment. He also is a prolific writer and preacher, churning out large amounts of content while making that content available across the world through his website and ministry Desiring God. Sometimes I wonder if prolific writers get popular simply because they produce things to read. Prolificness is almost a superpower – most people can’t imagine writing one book or preaching one sermon, let alone multiple ones.

    Kudos to Piper for acknowledging he’s actually pretty much completely unknown when considering his popularity from the perspective of the world’s population.

  11. Anna,

    Ha! You’re so right, Anna. I’ve heard him try to answer questions like “Why should we evangelize if God has already determined the salvation or damnation of each individual?” He will spend 5 minutes weaving an answer that makes absolutely no sense and doesn’t even come close to addressing the issue at the heart of the question but because he can string a sentence together and do so earnestly I guess people think he said something logical. At the same time, he’s described as a very loving and kind person by people who know him. I believe and hope that’s true, and that’s something to consider when it comes to evaluating him.

  12. Ken F (aka Tweed): It’s never stopped him before. His inconsistency makes him a confusing mess – but his followers assume the fact they cannot understand him is evidence of his superior intellect.

    I think it’s evidence he needs to be in a nursing home.

  13. Paul K: Piper was given a platform by Louie Giglio in the Passion Conferences and thousands of young people disillusioned with the shallow, seeker-sensitive Christianity taught back at their home churches found what they thought was a greater depth in Piper’s teachings (which draw a lot from Jonathan Edwards, considered by some to be perhaps the greatest American intellectual).

    I sat through a whole rainy day at a Passion conference listening to Piper babble. He made more sense back then, but not much.

    I agree though, that he was attractive to a lot of people because he sounded so philosophical compared to the emptiness popular at modern churches. But he basically said the same things over and over, just wording them in different ways. One thing I’ve noticed about the long sermon crowd is that they don’t really have two hours worth of sermon. They have twenty minutes of sermon, of which they repeat several times, and then add several personal stories which generally have little to do with the point. Then nobody remembers any of that once they walk out. Those pastors make themselves all puffed up about how long they can preach, but their sermons aren’t worth much.

  14. From the OP: On Wednesday, I will be posting an update about a reader who is being sued by her pastor.

    When we the lesson be learned? Discovery is the friend of the abused. On second thought, let the idiots keep on suing the victims.

  15. Paul K: Piper was given a platform by Louie Giglio in the Passion Conferences

    The Passion Conferences were no doubt at the root of New Calvinism. It was the soil from which everything else grew … a gateway into Calvinism. I don’t know if that was Giglio’s intent, but new reformers (Piper, etc.) sure took advantage of their newfound popularity. Calvin became cool on campuses across the country … novelty shops profited from “Jonathan Edwards Is My Homeboy” t-shirts … ESV Bible sales soared! IMO, it wasn’t so much the “superior intellect” of New Calvinist leaders or the “one true gospel” which they promoted as it was a hunger in young folks for something more than the stale faith offered in their home churches. Complacent non-Calvinist Christians across America contributed to the rise of New Calvinism. The SBC and other slumbering expressions of faith fell to the new reformation because they were easy pickins’. The average churchgoer in America doesn’t really give a big whoop about theology, but you try to take away their fellowship chicken dinners and you will a war on your hands! Yep, their children were easy targets for anything new.

  16. Don Jones,

    Thank you. I’m quite proud of thee wya she turned out It was hard not to be overprotective but she made sure that I didn’t slow her down. It is a good story to tell others because it doesn’t fit the paradigm of perfect faith. However, I had a man tell me that God healed her because someone else who had a better faith was praying for her. Can you imagine?

  17. Anna,

    I have a trouble with their theology. Why pray? It’s already decided upon. It drives me nuts for a logical perspective. I found his answer interesting because he simply didn’t know because of his baseline doctrines. he was unable to say that God wouldn’t punish the man’s father because the man didn’t have enough faith. I really, really tried to understand Calvinism. I can’t and don’t. But that probably means I’m not saved in their paradigm since that sort of things has been said before as well.

  18. Ken F (aka Tweed): Here is what he posted yesterday:
    https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/is-john-piper-popular-because-he-makes-christianity-look-intelligent

    “Now when the men of the Sanhedrin (Jewish High Court) saw the confidence and boldness of Peter and John, and grasped the fact that they were uneducated and untrained ordinary men, they were astounded, and began to recognize that they had been with Jesus.” (Acts 4:13)

    The Church of the Living God has not been built through intelligent men, but through those who have been with Jesus … the two don’t always come in the same package. I was young and now am old … along the way, I developed enough spiritual sense to spot a preacher who has been with Jesus a mile away and have come to discern those who haven’t.

  19. dee: Virtue signaling mixed with a humble brag. There should be a term for that.

    I’m sure C.J. Mahaney covered that in his book “Humility: True Greatness.”

  20. ishy: he was attractive to a lot of people because he sounded so philosophical

    “Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.” (1 Corinthians 8:1)

    Have you noticed that New Calvinists are not being accused of having love? Arrogance is the first descriptor that usually pops up. You will know them by their love, not their knowledge.

  21. I am always amazed by the people that say “you just need more faith”. We all have issues, and our faith can be different for different areas – but God works in all of them, not based on amount of faith, but because of what Jesus has done for us. When I hear people say it happened because of lack of faith I always go back to the prosperity gospel preachers – because it they think they can generate the faith, versus having the Holy Spirit helping each one of us grow in our relationship with God. Gee whiz, we can all grow, and God can use all of us they way we are now.

  22. dee: Virtue signaling mixed with a humble brag. There should be a term for that.

    There is, but WordPress wouldn’t like it.

  23. Max,

    Wartburgers will be familiar with the oft-told anecdote describing Francis of Assisi’s visit to the Vatican, in which the the Pope showed him the vast wealth there and said So you see, Francis, we cannot say, as Saint Peter did, Silver and gold have I none. To which Francis is said to have replied, Och, aye – but ye cannae say Rise up an' walk either!.

    There are occasions when it cannot be said of protestant clergy that they are not men of letters. Or that they’ve no silver and gold, come to that. But they can’t say Rise up and walk either.

  24. Incidentally, Wartburgers will be relieved to hear that my git merge passed without incident.

  25. NickBulbeck: So, I’m taking the phrase “because he makes christianity look intelligent” somewhat out of context here. But the obvious question is: makes it “look intelligent” to whom, exactly?

    Maybe he came in at a time when lots of preachers were just telling dumb stories about their golf games?

    Dever is the one who always sounded legit smart to me when I went to his church. Curious if my opinion would still be the same now 20 years later though, but in contrast to what I was hearing before that he came off well.

    Also those ladies at that church threw a great potluck, which I know max hates and it makes me sad to think might have gone away.

  26. Paul K: young people disillusioned with the shallow, seeker-sensitive Christianity taught back at their home churches found what they thought was a greater depth in Piper’s teachings

    I think this is a big factor. The New-Calvinists often use the term “doctrinal precision.” It sounds attractive, but there is no such thing. And if New-Calvinist had any discernment at all they would see how imprecise their doctrines actually are. Max rightly points out that a mark* of the New-Calvinism movement is hubris. Poor discernment is another.

    *Has anyone assembled a list of 9 Marks of New-Calvinism?

  27. I wish that Piper would complete James’ thought: “but when you do ask, you ask from bad motives, to spend it on your pleasures.”

    But perhaps that would conflict with his “christian hedonism” teaching.

    The only person, AFAIK, who always received what he asked of God was Jesus, whom the Father always heard (Jn 11:41).

    I really wish the churches would not try to apply apostolic-era miracle theology to our time. It never ends well.

  28. Ken F (aka Tweed): Has anyone assembled a list of 9 Marks of New-Calvinism?

    Not listening to anyone outside of their camp?

    Claiming pastors have authority over everyone else just because they as people want it?

    Nepotism?

  29. <blockquote.Does John Piper lack social skills like empathy?
    Those who are completely full of themselves usually do.

  30. Ken F (aka Tweed): I think this is a big factor. The New-Calvinists often use the term “doctrinal precision.” It sounds attractive, but there is no such thing.

    The Communists called it “Purity of Ideology”, and the most zealously Pure were the Khmer Rouge.

  31. Eagle (remember him?) emailed me yesterday about this exact same subject.
    He was pretty heated, as his father died of a brain tumor a bit over a year ago.
    He’s looking into covering this Pious Piper bloviation on his blog as well.

  32. ishy: Ken F (aka Tweed): It’s never stopped him before. His inconsistency makes him a confusing mess – but his followers assume the fact they cannot understand him is evidence of his superior intellect.

    I think it’s evidence he needs to be in a nursing home.

    You are not the only one to have made that observation.
    Others have made similar speculations about Pat Robertson and his foot-in-mouth disease rivalling Piper’s.

    However, the Rules of CELEBRITY are in effect, and nobody tells a CELEBRITY anything other than what the CELEBRITY Wants to Hear. (i.e. “WOW-DADDY-WOW!!!”)

  33. Max:
    I gave up a long time ago expecting Piper to say anything meaningful to people of faith.What continues to amaze me is that there are millions who haven’t, who still hang on to his every tweet as truth.

    Think of them as screaming teenyboppers at a Beatles concert.

  34. Headless Unicorn Guy: However, the Rules of CELEBRITY are in effect, and nobody tells a CELEBRITY anything other than what the CELEBRITY Wants to Hear. (i.e. “WOW-DADDY-WOW!!!”)

    That’s a universal rule for New Calvinists. Nobody in the family is allowed to question the father, nobody in the church is allowed to question the pastor.

    I can see it actually being a huge problem for families in New Calvinism trying to deal with a father with dementia. Men are supposed to be unquestioned and absolute authorities in their families in New Calvinism, and pastors even more so. I could even see the family being harassed by the pastor by trying to take power of attorney.

    Oh, that reminds me (in a weird sideways sort of way), but I laughed yesterday when someone on Reddit posted about how they go to TVC because Chandler so “progressive” and “open”. Guess they don’t know much about Chandler at all. I know Chandler deviates from the New Cals in some areas, like charismaticism, but he’s most certainly not progressive about women.

  35. Stan: I found the comment.

    The one on reddit? Yeah, it was a bit of a head scratcher to me.

    I suspect that belief may not be uncommon at New Cal churches. They try to come across super trendy and welcoming to non-members and new members; it’s only when you try to leave or start asking uncomfortable questions that the atmosphere changes quickly. I had friends tell me that they didn’t even know about the things the New Cals believed until they started reading the recommended books and the pastor harassed them about not joining or signing the covenant after attending there a couple years.

  36. Samuel Conner: I wish that Piper would complete James’ thought …

    The New Calvinists are infamous for taking text out of context and inserting their own thoughts.

  37. ishy,

    I listened to the radio show “The Narrow Path”. The host said they are trying to recreate the institutional church of the middle ages in Europe, where there was only the one state sanctioned church near you.

  38. Max: “Sometimes you’re sure dogs have some secret, superior intelligence, and other times you know they’re only their simple, goofy selves.”

    Ah, that IS the secret, superior intelligence!

    Re: Piper – I have been expressing my bafflement for years as to why anyone ever thought this guy was some super-intelligent Christian intellectual. He has always seemed to me to be a rather shallow, facile git.

  39. This is the first I am hearing of this really obnoxious John Piper view / paper / podcast or whatever about a family member dying and the grieving process.

    One of the reasons – not the only, but one of – why I occasionally blog about grief and all it entails over at my Daisy blog is that, from my experience, 99% of Christians suck lemons at helping the grieving.

    Many Christians insult, victim blame, give platitudes to the grieving,
    or, like John Piper, they suggest your loved one died as punishment from God because you didn’t pray enough, or you lacked faith, or whatever.

    Then there’s the category of devout Christian who doesn’t victim blame, shame, etc, but they are no better, because they don’t do anything at all.

    Those Christians don’t write, call, e-mail, or invite you over, though they know you could use the company and moral support because you’re grieving.

    They do not want to be straddled with the time and effort it takes to offer someone who is grieving emotional support.

    They don’t want to walk with you through the valley of grief, so they choose to ignore you, avoid you, use their answering machines to screen you out.

    I had all that happen to me -and more- after my Mom died.

    Losing my Mom was really tough, but the thing I find even more painful and shocking were the lousy responses I got from Christians,
    which would included extended family of mine who I thought would be there for me but who were not.

    I’ve learned if you are grieving (or going through whatever negative experience in life),
    do NOT seek out Christians for help or emotional support,
    because they either refuse to give you any, or they will victim-blame or judge you.

    It’s safer to find your own way through your struggle and to find secular help.

    I speak from painful and hard-won, first hand experience on that.

    If anyone is interested, I have several posts on my blogs quoting folks from other sites who’ve written about the grieving process and related.

    Here is just one post about it:

    Regarding Grief, Sickness and Depression: Hold Your Tongue and Offer Your Heart Instead by H. Plett
    https://missdaisyflower.wordpress.com/2017/08/05/regarding-grief-sickness-and-depression-hold-your-tongue-and-offer-your-heart-instead-by-heather-plett/

  40. I once had a lot of respect for John Piper (even attended his church while living in Minneapolis), but over time I just think that he can’t see the forest for the trees. He seems so preoccupied with dissecting every little letter in the Bible that he seems to miss the big picture. As an aside…equally bothersome is how many of his followers/fans just fawn over him.

    So…by extension, did my sister die because I lacked faith? I find this line of thinking very offensive and flat out wrong.

  41. wow, newer to this site. Blown away by the lack of grace. Wonder if our Savior sits around with Michael and Gabriel and has these same discussions.

  42. I’ve worked for 30 years with Buddhists and tribal animists (people who placate spirits of dead ancestors or nature). Without exception the driving force in all their worship is the fervent wish to control circumstances. They chant mantras, pay spirit priests and give alms to monks hoping cure sickness, pass entrance exams, or get promotions. It has been the shock of my Christian life to find that Christians do the same thing:

    “If you raise your kids according to God’s word they will follow God.” Nope. Each generation chooses for themselves. God himself (the perfect parent) accompanied Israel (his children) through the desert and most rejected him.

    “Recite Psalm 91 out loud every day and no harm will come near you.” Just read that on a website again yesterday. And often a story is added about a platoon in WWII that did this and they all lived through the war. Reciting a Psalm as though it’s a magic charm does not protect anyone. What protects a believer is dwelling in the shelter of the Almighty and making him one’s refuge. And even then no one is guaranteed a disaster free life. Jesus said those who follow him can expect to be treated as he was. And we all know how that turned out.

    “If you had more faith you would be healed.” If that’s true the Apostle Paul was a miserable faith failure. He told his young protegee to take a little wine because of Timothy’s frequent illnesses. He also said, “Trophimus I left at Miletum sick.”

    “If you had prayed with better faith your father would not have died.” Everyone, everywhere, in every age dies. No amount of anyone’s faith is going to change that. Big shocker right? Why not just admit we live in a fallen world where people suffer, get sick and die and we can’t change it. Maybe because no one wants to hear that.

    Our lives are out of our control more often than we want. People, including Buddhists, Muslims, and even Christians want to make simple connections to explain “why this happened” but we can’t. Job’s friends tried and they failed miserably. Anyone who tries to reduce life problems down to six faith principals, or the 5 points of TULIP is trying to sell us something. Which I notice is a frequent theme on TWW- evangelical leaders making big bucks off telling everyone else what to think and do.

    At the end of the day what bothers me the most about John Piper, Al Mohler and the rest of these self important men is how they put themselves up as experts about God. Instead of leading people directly to Jesus they stand right in the middle as mediators. There is only one mediator between God and people – his name is Jesus.

  43. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    When I read ‘Young, Restless…etc. I understood the students saying they had found some intellectual content for their belief.
    In college in the 50s I was constantly shocked t hgv at students from o th ng er denominations knew so much more about Christian theology than I did. In my yrs in SBC churches all I learned was ‘it’s just me, God and the Bible. Plus SS teacher who told us John the Baptist wrote the book of John. When I (12 yrs old) said but he dies in the beginning, she said isn’t prophesy wonderful!
    There was a very strong no intellect needed emphasis in SBC churches of that period.

    So someone coming along saying you have to think in church would have been very appealing.

  44. Jason: Blown away by the lack of grace.

    For someone who bases his ministry on grace-this, grace-that, Piper continues to demonstrate a remarkable misunderstanding of Grace.

  45. tomke: So someone coming along saying you have to think in church would have been very appealing.

    Very often in church history, fighting against one error has resulted in an equal and opposite error. An emphasis on the Bible is great, but not when it gets to slicing words into word salad. This is where I think Piper has made a grave mistake.

  46. Dan from Georgia: He seems so preoccupied with dissecting every little letter in the Bible that he seems to miss the big picture.

    “You spiritually blind guides, who strain out a gnat consuming yourselves with miniscule matters and swallow a camel ignoring and violating God’s precepts!” (Matthew 23:24)

    Dan from Georgia: equally bothersome is how many of his followers/fans just fawn over him

    “If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the pit.” (Matthew 15:14)

    New Calvinism is a pit full of snakes – blind leaders and their blind followers have fallen into it. So sad to see so many young folks follow the the Pied Piper into this spiritual hole in the ground; he continues to dig the pit deeper with his theological aberrations.

  47. Jason: Wonder if our Savior sits around with Michael and Gabriel and has these same discussions.

    I mean…someone asked Jesus if a guy was blind because of sin by him or his parents and he was like ‘no’? Plus the entire book of Job.

  48. Jason: wow, newer to this site. Blown away by the lack of grace. Wonder if our Savior sits around with Michael and Gabriel and has these same discussions.

    Scripture is full of these discussions.

  49. Lea: someone asked Jesus if a guy was blind because of sin by him or his parents and he was like ‘no’?

    Ahhh … but that passage is found in the Gospels, not the epistles of Paul. The New Calvinists camp out in Paul’s writings and spend little time reading the words in red. As I told a young reformer in my area, if you read Paul first you might miss Jesus … but if you read Jesus first, the writings of Paul come into perspective.

  50. dee: Virtue signaling mixed with a humble brag. There should be a term for that.

    Rule of thumb:
    THE MORE VIRTUE-SIGNALLING, THE GREATER THE CORRUPTION.

  51. Ken F (aka Tweed): tomke: So someone coming along saying you have to think in church would have been very appealing.

    Very often in church history, fighting against one error has resulted in an equal and opposite error.

    Often with a body count involved.
    “DIE, HERETICS!!!!!”

  52. Max: For someone who bases his ministry on grace-this, grace-that, Piper continues to demonstrate a remarkable misunderstanding of Grace.

    “Grace” is like “People’s Democratic” in the official name of a Third World country.

    “The more adjectives about Democracy there are in a country’s official name, the nastier of a dictatorship it is.”
    — TV Tropes, “People’s Republic of Tyranny”

  53. Fisher: Our lives are out of our control more often than we want.

    People, including Buddhists, Muslims, and even Christians want to make simple connections to explain “why this happened” but we can’t. Job’s friends tried and they failed miserably.

    Anyone who tries to reduce life problems down to six faith principals, or the 5 points of TULIP is trying to sell us something.

    Which I notice is a frequent theme on TWW- evangelical leaders making big bucks off telling everyone else what to think and do.

    At the end of the day what bothers me the most about John Piper, Al Mohler and the rest of these self important men is how they put themselves up as experts about God.

    Instead of leading people directly to Jesus they stand right in the middle as mediators. There is only one mediator between God and people – his name is Jesus.

    I agree with all of this.

    It’s where I’ve been with the Christian faith the last few years, and my view(s) on God.

    I don’t think anybody knows or understands God 100%, not even with the help of the Bible.

    Anyone who acts with the utmost certainty that they have God all figured out,
    that their systematic theology, or interpretation on every part of the Bible, is totally correct, and which in turn allows them to have God all figured out or life, annoys me to no end.

    These pastors and Christian authors don’t necessarily know or understand God any better than me or anyone else.

    One tip off (as Roman Catholic apologists like to mention): look at all the pro-sola scriptura, ‘we take the Bible literally’ Protestants: they have splintered into many groups because they cannot agree on how to interpret every point of the Bible.

    (But I’d add Roman Catholics to that as well, sorry. I don’t think having the Magisterium or Papal Infallibility or Church Tradition has spared them the same problems.)

    And ditto for me on this in regards to other world religions (many of whom, such as Muslims, etc., think THEY have God and life all figured out), and the die-hard atheists who think THEY have it all figured out.

    Nobody wants to question their beliefs or world views, consider they may be wrong about a thing or two, or admit, “Hey, I don’t have all the answers.”

    It drives me nuts.

    Nobody has all the answers to everything, but so many like to think they do and then dictate to others how they think others should live or think about God.

  54. Lea: Right?? Read the book ya’ll. It’s been discussed.

    LOL I was literally going to write the exact same thing. Then my boss told me I could buy a new work computer and I kinda nerded out. Glad I refreshed before I posted!

    Trolls 1) never engage the actual discussion, and 2) always do what they are telling other people not to do.

  55. Fisher: Anyone who tries to reduce life problems down to six faith principals, or the 5 points of TULIP is trying to sell us something.

    Now, ain’t that the truth, Fisher! The New Calvinist movement has been a very profitable venture for Piper, etc. (their books are front & center in the local Christian bookstore).

    Fisher: At the end of the day what bothers me the most about John Piper, Al Mohler and the rest of these self important men is how they put themselves up as experts about God. Instead of leading people directly to Jesus they stand right in the middle as mediators.

    The New Calvinists don’t lead lost folks to Jesus. Heck, they hardly talk about Him! Listen to their sermons … they talk a LOT about “God”, but seldom mention Jesus, and hardly a word about the Holy Spirit … but they sure quote each other.

  56. Taking pastoral care to a new low when a pastor discusses such intimate, fragile issues with people in pain as mere theological constructs–with the entire world listening in. Yeesh!

  57. Kenneth,
    Maybe to him NOTHING exists except the Abstract Theological Construct?

    Like Citizen Robespierre and Comrade Pol Pot, to whom Purity of Abstract Ideology led to ordering some real heavy-duty atrocities — the Reign of Terror and Cambodia’s Killing Fields. But as Stalin put it, “one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is only a statistic”. And the Perfectly Pure Ideological Omelet always requires breaking more and more eggs.

  58. Paul K: he’s described as a very loving and kind person by people who know him.

    The same could be said of nearly everyone. Private behavior matters, but so do public and published positions. One does not erase the other.

  59. Max,

    Piper’s description of God does not include these words either: love, mercy, compassion, Trinity, relationship, or spirit. He does talk about God’s goodness, but only in terms of a standard: “God is who he is means he is the absolute standard of truth and goodness and beauty.”

    His god does not appear relational.

    Piper sounds like a Deist worshipping a detached, deterministic idol.

  60. From TWW’s Main Marquee:

    — John Piper needs to get a heart —

    He’s already got one, but it’s made of stone.

  61. Forgive me for mentioning again but if you want to research calvinism then you have GOT to get on the site Soteriology 101 by Dr Leighton Flowers. He is a former Calvinist and is quite articulate and gracious in debating this flawed theology. His site frequently critiques Piper.

  62. Piper shows himself to preach a theology of glory (his glory, not God’s!) by implying another person’s destiny is in his power.

    And it smacks in a sense of the prosperity gospel.

    Ugh. Just ugh.

  63. linda: Ugh. Just ugh

    Did you read this part from one of his recent articles?

    and he would get them in his hands, and he would twist them and squeeze them and pull on them and bite on them and suck on them and press them against each other?

    Why do his followers put up with this?

  64. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    Off topic, but when this came to my attention just now, I immediately thought of one of your concerns re: Reformed systematics.

    You may appreciate the title of this relatively recent Philip Yancey book on Evangelical decline:

    https://www.amazon.com/Vanishing-Grace-What-Ever-Happened/dp/0310339324

    Yancey knows his history, I’m sure, and I suspect that this title is intentionally (but perhaps a bit surreptitiously, given the widespread ignorance of the history of theology) provocative.

    “Bully for him!”

  65. linda: prosperity gospel

    Criticisms by Piper and other New Calvinist icons re: the prosperity gospel carry little credibility considering they have become prosperous themselves with their version of the gospel.

  66. Samuel Conner: You may appreciate the title of this relatively recent Philip Yancey book on Evangelical decline:

    Thanks for the reminder. I still have that book on my shelf and should probably re-read it. I like his writing.

  67. Max–and yet Piper was teaching or preaching something very akin to the very prosperity gospel they criticize. And the hubris of assuming people will go to hell because he didn’t properly do his homework before preaching, or some other pastoral duty. I must ask: who talked to Moses at the burning bush? What human led St. Paul to faith in Christ? Piper sounds extremely narcissistic to me.

    Ken, had not read that so no clue what it refers to, but still sounds ugh to me.

    Sometimes a good dose of Christus Victor refreshes the theological palate.

  68. linda: Sometimes a good dose of Christus Victor refreshes the theological palate.

    Here is a good dose. It is probably the most famous Christian sermon of all time (and is only four paragraphs):
    https://www.oca.org/fs/sermons/the-paschal-sermon
    The last paragraph:

    O Death, where is your sting? O Hell, where is your victory? Christ is risen, and you are overthrown. Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen. Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice. Christ is risen, and life reigns. Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave. For Christ, being risen from the dead, is become the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. To Him be glory and dominion unto ages of ages. Amen.

  69. Max: Criticisms by Piper and other New Calvinist icons re: the prosperity gospel carry little credibility considering they have become prosperous themselves with their version of the gospel.

    No, they were Predestined to become prosperous themselves when they were Elected before the foundation of the world. God’s Speshul Pets.

  70. linda: Piper sounds extremely narcissistic to me.

    Not just to you.
    The guy’s so full of himself I’m surprised he hasn’t burst.

  71. Max,

    I completely agree. I remember as a teen hungering for purpose and mentoring in a way which my parents’ high Anglican Church did not provide. I wasn’t interested in church socials or attending youth group with the kids I’d known since birth and who bullied me at school on a regular basis. I wanted to think about and discuss the deep issues of life, so when I found a strand of faith which engaged with that, and gave me hours of sermons and lectures to dig into, I was thrilled. But the more I studied the less sense it all made…

  72. Paul K: At the same time, he’s described as a very loving and kind person by people who know him.

    I would love to be wrong, but I would say, judging by the fruit of his life, he is not. A man who excommunicates his own son? A man who says women should endure domestic abuse even to the point of being beaten? That is not a loving man. He may be nice to his family; many awful people are. My cynical side says that abusers are often skilled at manipulation and presenting a charming, kind face to those they encounter.

  73. Liz: A man who excommunicates his own son? A man who says women should endure domestic abuse even to the point of being beaten? That is not a loving man.

    “Love” is not the first word that pops to mind when describing New Calvinists; arrogance is. “You will know them by their love” just doesn’t fit this group.

  74. Here is what Piper’s site posted tonight:
    https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/hell-will-not-unsettle-heaven
    It’s all about how much the saved will rejoice when they see the eternal suffering of the unsaved, even their unsaved loved ones:

    And imponderable as it may seem to us now in this disorienting in-between age, the decisive and eternal demonstration of God’s justice and power in the eternal destruction of the wicked will occasion the praise and joy of God’s people.

    Ironically, I got this quote from a shared post from Jeff Doles on FB post today:
    “Anyone who thinks the eternal conscious torment of the wicked is necessary for the glory and grace of God to be seen understands neither glory nor grace.”

  75. Ken F (aka Tweed): “the decisive and eternal demonstration of God’s justice and power in the eternal destruction of the wicked will occasion the praise and joy of God’s people” (David Mathis, Desiring God website)

    The only thing more disturbing than John Piper is the multitude of followers who think and talk just like him! May God deliver the American church from New Calvinism!

  76. Ken F (aka Tweed): Ironically, I got this quote from a shared post from Jeff Doles on FB post today:
    “Anyone who thinks the eternal conscious torment of the wicked is necessary for the glory and grace of God to be seen understands neither glory nor grace.”

    It’s a message of cheap grace, mean grace, aberrant grace … but not the Grace of God. For folks who talk a lot about grace-this and grace-that, the Piperites have missed it.