Does the Combination of Certain Theological Aspects of Calvinism and ACBC (aka Biblical) Counseling Lead to Danger for Victims of Sex Abuse and Domestic Violence?

“The worldly man treats certain people kindly because he ‘likes’ them: the Christian, trying to treat every one kindly, finds him liking more and more people as he goes on – including people he could not even have imagined himself liking at the beginning.”  C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity


 

It should comes as no surprise that I do not support much in the Biblical counseling movement. I have written a number of articles about my concerns. You can find a summary of some of those posts at the beginning of Another Reason to Avoid Biblical Counseling: Confidentiality Is Not Guaranteed When Sin™ Is Involved.

These posts includes my concerns (and documentation) about poor education for counselors which includes weekend warrior *You, too can be a counselor in just a few weekends because you know the Bible.” Sadly, this training is offered at several of the SBC seminaries and is embraced by John Piper as well as a number of Calvinist churches. My critique includes:

  • weak education
  • uninformed church members who believe they are counselors
  • flyby weekend or online training
  • sin focused counseling
  • sex abuse and domestic violence downplayed
  • easy restoration for the abuser
  • insistences on forgiveness on the part of the victim
  • poor understanding of the use of medication
  • little understanding of the science of neurology/psychiatry
  • no guarantee of confidentiality

Surprisingly, Christianity Today took a hard look at this movement and offered up some long overdue critiques in When Restoration Hurts subtitled” Christian counselors grapple with how to encourage reconciliation while protecting victims.”

I still remember talking with a mother whose daughter was molested by her husband. As members of a Sovereign Grace Church, they were told how to *biblically* handle the situation. The father claimed he was *sorry* and the family was informed by the pastors that they must now forgive him. The father was allowed to return to the home and the daughter was provided with locks inside of her bedroom to keep the father out. Needless to say, this situation eventually led to divorce as well it should.

Reconciling with an abuser: A Biblical counseling center say that they have the biblical principles regarding reunification but it’s up to the family to decide whether or not to listen to them.

CT was able to identify a counseling center which:

  • Asked a 17 year old teen sexually abused by her father to figure out some ways he blessed her
  • Told her that she was abused because her mother was not sexually satisfying her father
  • Told her he had now repented and he should move back to the home.
  • Told her not to talk about what happened to her.

Sadly, this father went on to molest her other two sisters.

This was an ACBC Counseling center. Thankfully, Amanda has filed a complaint but I sincerely do not believe that this group will respond to it. In fact they told her not to talk about their counseling! Ooooo, this will turn out well.

Here is a link to the ACBC (Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. This sounds really good, doesn’t it. Except it is a snap to get certified. Here is a link to a post I wrote on the issue: Biblical Counseling Training: Inadequate Education, Problematic Resources and Questionably Educated Leaders.You, too, can be a counselor and it is not difficult.

According to ACBC, it’s not their fault for giving you all the Biblical principles. it’s yours for listening to them Do you see how this is worded in the CT article?

“We can guide people using biblical principles, but ultimately others are making the final decision about reunification.”

They, of course, are using Biblical principles but it is up to you to decide if you want to do what they advise yo to do. In other words, they are biblical and you are not.

The ACBC approach to counseling is popular in conservative Reformed circles and Christian psychologists are to be feared.

In fact, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (Al Mohler), Masters Seminary (John MacArthur), John Piper and James MacDonald all promote this type of counseling. SBTS takes such a rabid view of the biblical nature of ACBC’s approach that they fired their only psychology professor, Eric Johnson

Eric Johnson was the only psychology professor at SBTS until 2017, when he left the seminary due to incompatibilities with biblical counseling faculty.

Johnson has gone of to form a new institute at Houston Baptist University.

he feels it’s possible to build a better psychology on a historical Christian philosophy rather than add religion into mainstream psychology.

In fact, ACBC appears hell bent in getting abusers back into the home environment in spite of the fact that pedophilia and domestic violence is often a sign of a profound psychiatric condition.

Read their words. In this instance, it startled me to see that their goal is to get abuser back into the home but may not *always.* This says to me “plan to get most of them back in the home.*

Dale Johnson, executive director of the ACBC, told CT that restoration doesn’t look the same in all cases and that counselors recognize an abuser may not always be able to move back in.

In fact, so long as they mouth their repentance, it must be accepted as the gospel truth. No deceit is considered. It’s just a  *come to Jesus* moment. And you better not bring their past indiscretions up to them again.

In a session during its 2018 abuse counseling training conference, Zondra Scott distributed a handout with a definition of forgiveness. It noted, quoting her husband Stuart Scott, a professor of counseling at SBTS, that once someone has fully repented of the sin and asked for forgiveness, forgiveness is “the full restoration of a sinning brother who is now repentant.” The promise of forgiveness was also defined as promising to “not hold this offense in my heart,” to “not spread this around to others,” and “to not bring this up against you again.”

Heath Lambert doesn’t want abusers to think that he is against them.

I guess this means he’s for them.

However, his approach to the abuser seeks to provide equal care with the goal of “restoration, not stigmatization.” Lambert makes the case that “we never want abusers to sense that we are against them” and that “the goal in ministry to an abuser—as long as he will receive such ministry—is to see him be restored to his family, and ultimately to Christ.” Lambert advocates for a “fierce willingness to protect the abused. Yet this need must not be placed at odds with ministry to the husband.”

Victims say their safety is compromised because ACBC counselors assume they know they heart of an abuser.

I believe that this tendency is due to poor education and an arrogant approach to theology.

But the survivors CT talked to saw it differently. When the same counselors were juggling ministry to both survivors and abusers, the victims felt their safety was compromised. While the ACBC emphasizes that restoration should only happen after genuine change and repentance, several victims pointed out the difficulty of knowing when real change has happened, and that it was prideful for their counselors to assume they knew the hearts of their abusers.

Calvinism (especially New Calvinism) and ACBC counseling are joined at the hip which could lead to dangerous counseling assumption

In this paradigm, women are blamed for their abuse while the actions of the abuser are minimized. Sadly, women are seen an instigators.

Just last year, Steven Sandage, a professor of psychology at Boston University and a licensed therapist, co-authored a study with Bethel Seminary professor Peter Jankowski that examined connections between theological views and attitudes toward domestic violence. They surveyed more than 200 Bethel students and found that where students held Calvinist views and adhered to gender complementarianism, there was a strong correlation with believing “domestic violence myths.”

Did you know that John Calvin felt women should stay in abusive homes, patiently putting up with the cross that Jesus gave them to bear? Boston University published Does God Ordain Domestic Violence?: STH’s Steven Sandage studies religious “myths” that justify abuse of women.

Calvin specifically suggested that the Almighty programmed humanity for spouse battering, writing that a wife must “bear with patience the cross which God has seen fit to place upon her.” He taught, Sandage says, that wives “were not allowed to leave their husbands when beaten.”

…Sandage summarizes the upshot of his research: “Many Christian theologies emphasize the possibility of finding meaning in suffering, but the New Calvinism seems to promote a rather stoic and un-empathic attitude that valorizes suffering, particularly among women.… Calvinist beliefs were related to higher levels of domestic violence myth acceptance and lower levels of social justice commitment.”

…He doesn’t contend that all people embracing Calvinism endorse domestic violence myths: “There are many contemporary Calvinists who hold progressive views of gender and other social issues. But our research does offer some data suggesting the ‘New Calvinism’ that combines Calvinistic beliefs and very conservative, binary views of gender may be a kind of theological risk factor for the acceptance of domestic violence myths and other socially regressive attitudes.”

Indeed, evangelical seminary students who believe that humans have some free will “do not show this pattern,” he says.

Read these words: Reconciliation should not be the first thing tho shoot for says Chris Moles, an ACBC counselor who hastens to add that he doesn’t speak for ACBC as a whole.

Did you notice that he emphasizes that he does not speak for ACBC as a whole? Why is that? Is he actually confirming that ACBC does emphasize reconciliation over safety? Sounds like it to me.

Chris Moles says he doesn’t speak for ACBC as a whole, he recognizes harmful ways some victims have been counseled by Christians. Counselors are aiming for the wrong target when their primary goal is reconciliation in abuse situations. “Safety,” he told CT, “is the first goal.”

However, some Calvinists are coming around to the need to reevaluate their paradigm when it comes to victims of abuse.

The woman who started this story ends the story on a positive note.

Years after Amanda’s abuse, a new pastor who identified with the Calvinist tradition came to her church and was crucial in helping her take important steps toward healing as an adult. She reported her abuse to police in 2008, although she said the investigation was short-lived because neither her family nor their counselors would talk to the police.

…Amanda feels the new pastor helped “rescue” her. His theological framework for acknowledging evil and God’s sovereignty, and his support for church discipline of wrongdoers, informed how he helped. Rightly understood, Amanda says, these doctrines can bring comfort to survivors.

Reporting abuse to the police: a need for action by pastors to come alongside victims and help them to report to the police, even if decades have passed.

I believe that the lack of pastoral intervention in supporting victims of sexual abuse has led to another problem. It is well known that within the SBC, sex abuse was dealt with by coverup. Within the week, I will be writing another story of a sex abuse situation in an SBC church which has flown under the radar. In this story, the family did go to the police, much to the chagrin of the church.

In this article in CT, Amanda did not report her abuse to police until 2008, ostensibly when this new pastor came aboard and encouraged her to do so.

I am concerned that there is still a bias amongst certain elements in the SBC to not encourage victims to report their abuse to the police. There is the excuse that it is outside the statute of limitations or that such a report might bring pain to the family of the abuser or it was just so long ago.

I’ve recently been made aware of an abuser who molested a boy 20 years ago. He is still at large, attending various SBC churches. Abusers do not simply stop abusing. Many have a diagnosed paraphilia which means they will struggle with their compulsions for the rest of their lives. It is a profound psychiatric dysfunction. This means that the abuser is most likely still molesting little boys.

Even if an abuser has died, coming forward with his name will encourage others who have been abused by this person to do the same. Please do not get involved in a conspiracy of silence.

Comments

Does the Combination of Certain Theological Aspects of Calvinism and ACBC (aka Biblical) Counseling Lead to Danger for Victims of Sex Abuse and Domestic Violence? — 117 Comments

  1. re: “and that it was prideful for their counselors to assume they knew the hearts of their abusers.”

    I would say that this kind of assumption is “reckless to the point of malpractice.”

  2. When I was an associate at my former church, the pastor asked me to consider starting a ministry with a ‘biblical counselor’ (his father in law). After checking this out, I told the pastor there was no way I was getting involved with it. Thankfully, it never got started. I told the pastor I was afraid that this kind of counseling was harmful and would open us up for a lawsuit down the road. I think the pastor was relieved I researched it because he had misgivings but didn’t want to confront his FIL.

  3. In the News (Methodist church, but pastor is product of the Baptist school that was subject of the study above (Bethel Seminary in Minnesota))

    Church ‘Replanting’ scheme has pastor urging elderly members to just go away:

    https://www.twincities.com/2020/01/18/cottage-grove-church-united-methodist-young-parishioners/

    “[Jeremy] Peters, 30, has moved to Cottage Grove with his wife and two children. He is…laying the groundwork for the relaunch, probably in November.”

    “The older members will not be physically barred from attending, said Peters. But the expectation is that they will not….’For this to be truly new, we can’t have [them]’.”

    “present members, most of them over 60 years old, will be invited to worship somewhere else. A memo recommends that they stay away for two years, then consult the pastor about reapplying”

    “[Then those] interested in migrating back…[should] connect with (Peters) about how to best make that transition’…[They] could be welcome if they supported the youthful new identity of the church. ‘If they are on board with that, they are welcome to attend and engage,’ said Peters.”

    Pastor Jeremy Peters already has his Replanting website up:

    https://theplantingproject.org/survey/

  4. I am not informed about the different counseling centers, but I have one comment on a counselor I consider excellent: Brad Hambrick of Raleigh, NC. I’ve read and/or watched most of the infidelity information on his blog and found it very helpful. If I recall correctly, he says to blame the wife for the husband’s infidelity is “atrocious”. It’s typical for churches to be “neutral” and not take sides, using the “it takes two to tango” approach. Another counselor who is fantastic is the writer of the blog The Divorce Minister, which I first learned about from TWW.

  5. Jerome: “The older members will not be physically barred from attending, said Peters. But the expectation is that they will not….’For this to be truly new, we can’t have [them]’.”

    This man is sick, has nothing of Christ in him, and needs to be booted out. What incredible weirdness! It is really disturbing that he thinks this is OK. In what way is this nonsense ‘Christian’? If the congregation puts up with this, they are equally culpable. I am finding it difficult to articulate my disgust with this person. ‘Pastor’ my, umm, hat!

  6. “Calvin specifically suggested that the Almighty programmed humanity for spouse battering, writing that a wife must “bear with patience the cross which God has seen fit to place upon her.” He taught, Sandage says, that wives “were not allowed to leave their husbands when beaten.””

    Ahhh … Piper must have taken his lead from Calvin when he piped:

    “If it’s not requiring her to sin, but simply hurting her, then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season, she endures perhaps being smacked one night, and then she seeks help from the church …” (John Piper)

    Whew, God bless her if she seeks help from his sort of church!! Don’t call Pastor, call 911!! Being smacked is domestic abuse, a crime.

  7. Jerome,
    0

    roebuck,

    The dying (and now closed) OP congregation I attended for several years was faced with a conundrum like this — it wanted to attract younger people but the current membership was not enthusiastic about revising the meeting style (specifically IIRC the music) to be less “unfamiliar” to unchurched people. My sense was that the denomination needed to support a legacy ministry to the traditionals AND a new plant at that location oriented toward younger people. In the end, between lack of resources and lack of unity of purpose, nothing was done and the group dwindled away.

    The proposed solution in the item linked by Jerome, that the “traditionals” go somewhere else, looks pretty hard-hearted to me, but I suspect that the rationale is that replanting is needed and resources are insufficient to maintain both a legacy ministry and do the work of recruiting new and younger people.

  8. Samuel Conner: I suspect that the rationale is that replanting is needed and resources are insufficient to maintain both a legacy ministry and do the work of recruiting new and younger people.

    Is necessary? Why? To maintain the business model? We’ll just kick out the older folks who built the thing to begin with. It’s sick, and no such ‘we need new shiny to attract younger people’ can change that.

    Are the younger people coming for a free rock concert and coffee really Christian, even if they wave their hands in the air to the ‘worship band’? This is pandering, pure and simple, and seems economically motivated more than anything else.

  9. roebuck,

    In the case I have personal knowledge of, the legacy congregation was not replenishing itself and was dwindling to the point that the lights were being kept on only by deferring maintenance on the physical structure of the meeting place. The adaptations to worship that were sought (and refused) were not radical — basically including songs composed more recently than the ’60s. I rather doubt that this minor adjustment would have made much of a difference in the appeal of the group to its community.

    I do think that it is very difficult to resuscitate a group that has lost the ability to drew new people to itself and consequently that has aged out.

  10. Samuel Conner: In the case I have personal knowledge of, the legacy congregation was not replenishing itself and was dwindling to the point that the lights were being kept on only by deferring maintenance on the physical structure of the meeting place.

    That doesn’t seem to be what’s going on in this story, but whatever. But why tell the old folks to just go away? How is that in any way Christian?

  11. roebuck,

    I agree; the right way to do this would be for the church planter to minister to the legacy group while starting the new thing alongside the old thing. That would probably be very costly in terms of exertion and weariness. They don’t make “apostles” the way they used to.

  12. Samuel Conner:
    roebuck,

    I agree; the right way to do this would be for the church planter to minister to the legacy group while starting the new thing alongside the old thing. That would probably be very costly in terms of exertion and weariness. They don’t make “apostles” the way they used to.

    Yes, it seems there must be a better way to go about this. A lot of churches have two services. Why not make one trad and one modern? Though I still maintain that the ‘rock band’ syndrome is pandering… why not cage fighting? That would bring ’em in. You know, if it’s just about bums in seats. But it’s not about numbers. It’s about the Gospel and the Truth…

  13. Getting back to the post at hand, I do find some of the practices of ACBC counseling disturbing, especially when it comes to forced reconciliation. Forgiveness is one thing, while reconciliation may never be possible, particularly if the perpetrator is still abusive. I’ve had several friends return to a physical abuser, only to be abused again. And, that unfortunately, is quite typical. It’s wonderful if one can find good counseling in the church, but I really think it’s a “buyer beware” kind of issue.

  14. Jerome,

    They have a checklist to sign up, with a “Partnership Agreement”, also to sign.

    Hope all of TWW-ers (and everyone else who is tempted by this scheme) in the area have read TWW postings about these “agreements”.

  15. Jerome: consult the pastor about reapplying

    Only the uninformed should bother & apply.

    Informed, Biblical (real Biblical) savvy people need not apply. They would cause too much trouble for this pastor and his org.

  16. Yes! Certain aspects do lead to major danger. But the nouthetic counseling was only new in my opinion so someone could make money off the material or who knows why. And Sovereign Grace seemed to think they had come up with new stuff as well. I say all that because I used to argue with my daughter’s SGM boyfriend that the reason I could argue with him was because I lived everything he had lived in his church and school upbringing and everything he was preaching and studied since then and realized how biblically wrong they are. Forgiveness always meant reconciliation. Horrible! At 15 I believed I was going to hell because I would not forgive my rapist boyfriend in high school. That was because forgiveness wasn’t real if you didn’t give a person another chance. I forgave once and got raped again, more violently than the time before. Worse than that was my never wanting anything to do with God after that. Not until I was 30 did I learn the Truth!

  17. As has been noted in previous “Biblical counseling” comments: if you’re going to use Bibical counseling as it were, use the whole counsel. Throw in Romans 13 for the place of civil authority and being subject to those who do not bear the sword in vain. As pointed out, the law of the land in all 50 states is clear. The brother vs. brother matters in Matthew 18 and 1 Cor. 6 do not negate the reality of rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and submitting unto authorities.

    Simply put, you can’t cherry-pick per your interpretation of Scripture as an excuse to evade the administration of justice by applicable authority. This circles back to the issues with personal-take “Biblical” counseling setups where once again, latitude is too often given for authority can be whatever one personally interprets chosen verses to be, which of course can lead to spiritual abuse. (Of course, to be sure, I need to check with whatever spiritual leader [sic] at the local Christian-labeled tax-free entity I’m told to subsidize per an old covenant/Mosaic law proscription in order not to forsake what they tell me the assembly is. They might have a divergent opinion and exert discipline.)

  18. Fae the OP (which also quotes the linked article in Christianity Today):

    However, [Heath Lambert’s] approach to the abuser seeks to provide equal care with the goal of “restoration, not stigmatization.” Lambert makes the case that “we never want abusers to sense that we are against them” and that “the goal in ministry to an abuser – as long as he will receive such ministry – is to see him be restored to his family, and ultimately to Christ.” Lambert advocates for a “fierce willingness to protect the abused. Yet this need must not be placed at odds with ministry to the husband.”

    I notice the “Yet” in the last sentence. Linguistically, a statement of the form “A; yet/but B” is approximately either/or. It’s what comes after the “yet” or “but” that really matters.

    The first thing anyone who wants to conduct christian “ministry” to an abuser should want is for the abuser to be brought to a point where he* is properly obedient to the risen, living Jesus. Moreover, this obedience is evident when his guard is down and he thinks no-one is looking, and not just when he is presented with a gift-wrapped opportunity to affirm some doctrines to fellow men who are looking for any excuse to forget about his abusive behaviour and welcome him in. Ultimately, if and only if it “seems good to the holy spirit and to us” (quoting the early Jerusalem church, but where the “us” is the abuser’s family), then maybe he can in some sense be restored to his family. But in no case will it ever be a restoring of things as they used to be.

    And if the family don’t want him, then the “minister” will simply need – forgive my bluntness – to suck that up. He doesn’t get to fake a miracle.

    * There are female abusers, and there are male victims of abuse, but Mr Lambert was talking specifically about violent husbands who abuse their wives.

  19. I’ve said it before abd I’ll continue saying it: true repentance will never demand anything. It may request forgiveness, but it does not demand it nor even expect reconciliation. If these things are demanded, it is not true repentance.

  20. The whole thing sounds wonky. Even the guy building a better psychology based on historical Christian philosophy sounds off. How about improving psychology through more evidence based research?

  21. JDV: Simply put, you can’t cherry-pick per your interpretation of Scripture as an excuse to evade the administration of justice by applicable authority. This circles back to the issues with personal-take “Biblical” counseling setups where once again, latitude is too often given for authority can be whatever one personally interprets chosen verses to be, which of course can lead to spiritual abuse.

    Biblical counselors also should believe that there are people that lie to get back in good graces. Most biblical counseling is based on the person being counseled saying the right things and biblical counselors are not trained to identify those who are lying about what they say.

    Biblical counselors are also generally not trained properly AT ALL. I took four biblical counseling classes at SEBTS. Not one of them mentioned abuse or mental illness. There was a small mention of domestic abuse in terms of physical violence, but seemed to treat it as a one-time thing. All of them had this vague hope that just by coming to counseling the person would instantly repent and be a new person, which a lot of Christians want to happen but rarely does.

  22. Eric Johnson is Reformed. It’s quite explicit in his Foundations of Soul Care book. His book is excellent (I haven’t read the second). I completed my DMin at SBTS in biblical counseling and didn’t meet any students who read Johnson. Whatever Scott or Lambert said negatively about Johnson was taken as Gospel truth. There was very little intellectual honest about Johnson and Christian psychology. Pierre is way more level-headed about the topic than Lambert. There’s a compelling PhD thesis from Trinity Evangelical that shows Johnson and Powlison are close theologically. Anyway, I think it’s an oversimplification to narrow it all down to Calvinism. I think the big divide between him and ACBC begins with theological method for our doctrine of Scripture.

  23. I won’t get on my “soapbox” because the entire notion of “Biblical counselors” irritates me so much especially when I get a counseling client that has already been to a “Biblical counselor.” They bring the pain of the issue they originally sought help for along with a traumatizing experience from a “counselor” who knows nothing and has beaten them up using the Bible.

    You can be a “Biblical counselor” in about a year. For those of us in the mental health profession, it takes around 5 years past a graduate degree to become licensed with multiple steps involved.

    It remains interesting to me that people will even choose a “Biblical counselor.” If a person has a cardiac problem, they will seek out the best cardiologist in their area with the most training. Physicians will be “Googled” to learn where they went to medical school and completed their residency and training. Yet for emotional issues folks will so often choose someone with little to no training just because the counselor is a “Christian.”

    Go figure . . .

  24. Jeannette Altes: true repentance will never demand anything. It may request forgiveness, but it does not demand it nor even expect reconciliation. If these things are demanded, it is not true repentance.

    This!

    On the theory that “repentance” requires “heart change”, and that is a “work of grace by the Spirit”, one would natural expect to see compelling evidences of “grace” in the life of the allegedly repentant abuser. Among these evidences, I would think, would be sympathy with the concerns of the person who was abused.

    Astonishingly, it seems that even the counselors do not have that.

  25. Jeannette Altes,

    No, I like the bold. It brought it to my eye, and you make a very good point. I’m writing a novel with a forgiveness theme & trying to be very clear what forgiveness is & isn’t, and I’m collecting points. My main one so far is that forgiveness is a free act & coercion or pressure to forgive is a violation. But this is a very good one that I hadn’t quite articulated to myself, so thank you.

  26. My wife and I led DivorceCare divorce recovery groups in churches for nine years. Long enough to see three versions of the curriculum. The production value of the videos and work books got progressively better. But the final version we used saw the introduction of “biblical counselors”, including some of the big names of the practice. I had personally witnessed the dangerous nature of this amateur psychology. I imagined the producers of this curriculum must have been under some pressure to incorporate “biblical counseling” because it was quite the rage in conservative church. This was the end of DivorceCare for us.

  27. And yes, counselor education in SBC seminaries has done a 180. When I was at SEBTS, pastoral care/counseling professors were certified by the the American Association of Pastoral Counselors. We were encouraged to do Clinical Pastoral Education through the Association for Clinical Pastoral Education. When the “conservative resurgence” occurred, these standards were thrown out by the new regime as they were considered “too liberal.”

    Then some of the seminaries at least tried to create a counseling track that would lead to a state license as a counselor. Not as theological, but such an effort required that graduates meet qualifications outside the seminary setting to receive a state license as a counselor. Not a bad option.

    As the Neo-Cals took over, any sort of formal counseling education and a state license were disavowed because all one needed was “the Bible.”

  28. Max,

    I watched that video couple of years ago and was utterly horrified. I was in the process of trying to decide whether I should leave my abusive husband, and doing all the research I could on the biblical approach to abuse and divorce. This shocked me out of my rut, and helped me see that yes, the church absolutely could be wrong about theology.

  29. ishy: Most biblical counseling is based on the person being counseled saying the right things

    To me it points to a fundamental flaw I keep seeing in certain Christian mindsets (more widespread than neo-Cal I’m afraid): valuing right thinking over right action. *That’s* not what Jesus meant when he said he who hates his brother has murdered him in his heart.

  30. Linn,

    Linn: Forgiveness is one thing, while reconciliation may never be possible, particularly if the perpetrator is still abusive.

    This was what I tried to explain to my pastor in my situation, he accused me of being bitter towards my abusive husband and divisive in the church, because I left the marriage. I explained over and over that I forgave him, but that I was not going to put myself and my children in danger again. That reconciliation would require a change of behaviour on his part, and that had not happened. They didn’t listen though.

  31. I’m curious if there is systematic evidence of the frequency of church-disciplinary actions taken toward aggrieved husbands of unfaithful wives who use the wife’s conduct as biblical grounds to seek divorce. I’m getting the impression that there is a significant disparity in how husbandly and wifely misconduct are treated.

    If that’s right, perhaps the problem is not Calvinism per se , but mysogyny.

  32. the daughter was provided with locks inside of her bedroom to keep the father out

    Yikes. If a child has to lock doors to keep themselves safe they are not safe. [I’m also looking at you, Duggars.]

  33. “There are many contemporary Calvinists who hold progressive views of gender and other social issues. But our research does offer some data suggesting the ‘New Calvinism’ that combines Calvinistic beliefs and very conservative, binary views of gender may be a kind of theological risk factor for the acceptance of domestic violence myths and other socially regressive attitudes.”

    I kind of think the views on gender are more important than the Calvinism here (as noted in the article, there is a combination here that should be examined as many ‘Calvinists’ do NOT believe in regressive gender roles.

    However this “Indeed, evangelical seminary students who believe that humans have some free will “do not show this pattern,” he says” is interesting data and I would like to see if it was, indeed, combined with the same sort of binary views of gender described above. I tend to think that part is the key part and makes absolute sense, but I would like to see more information on students with the same views on gender but different theological views. How wide is the gulf here? How wide is it between students who have progressive gender views and non-progressive ones, as far as this goes? I need more specifics here.

  34. Jerome: Church ‘Replanting’ scheme has pastor urging elderly members to just go away

    This makes me so sad!! I love seeing the older members of my church. I’ve lost all my grandparents and it just feels so nice to talk to the elder members on a regular basis. It makes church feel more like family to me.

    This is also, knowing how much older members tend to give compared to younger, an incredibly stupid idea for fiscal reasons.

  35. SamuelConner: the current membership was not enthusiastic about revising the meeting style (specifically IIRC the music)

    I don’t think this is necessary to attract new members though. Why does music have to change for church to ‘work’? It’s bizarre.

  36. Lea,

    In that group, I think the more fundamental problem was the way the theology (determinism) interacted with the predilections of the group (passivity) and resulted in a multi-decade-long pattern of inadequate outreach. The existing membership was indeed an obstacle to resuscitation of the group’s future; some of the leaders grasped at stylistic changes in the hope that these would be sufficient. I agree that these are not that important.

  37. Jerome: ACBC also excludes women from advancing beyond Level 1 nouthetic counselor:

    Holy…I dont know why this shocked because as noted it’s 100% on brand, but man. I can’t stand these people. They are terrible.

  38. Nick…you are absolutely right on the ‘yet’ comment…how absolutely maddening and wrong is the idea that we can’t protect an abused person if it puts us ‘at odds’ with ministering to the abuser??!! WT… Goodness knows we wouldn’t want them to think we think ill of them for being a mean sob or hitting their spouse or child or whatever else they’ve done. We always want them to think we’re on their side.

    That just makes me think of a podcast I was listening to where the detective said she wanted the SKer to think she was ‘on his side’ in order to get information/confession. Not just…because she wanted him to think she was on his side. How bonkers is that??

  39. Heather: My main one so far is that forgiveness is a free act & coercion or pressure to forgive is a violation.

    What you and Jeannette said here is excellent.

    For someone who has violated you in some way to demand or be angered at your response is an indication that they have not changed imo. Although I am not articulating as well as either of you, I have seen this so many times in the way people act…

  40. Loren Haas: But the final version we used saw the introduction of “biblical counselors”, including some of the big names of the practice. I had personally witnessed the dangerous nature of this amateur psychology. I imagined the producers of this curriculum must have been under some pressure to incorporate “biblical counseling” because it was quite the rage in conservative church.

    Biblical Counseling and Dianetic Auditing — twins separated at birth?

  41. Jack:
    The whole thing sounds wonky. Even the guy building a better psychology based on historical Christian philosophy sounds off. How about improving psychology through more evidence based research?

    Evidence is of The World and The Flesh, NOT The Spirit.
    All a Trick of the Devil.
    (When the Holy Spirit talks to you personally, that trumps all else.)

  42. JDV: Simply put, you can’t cherry-pick per your interpretation of Scripture as an excuse to evade the administration of justice by applicable authority.

    That’s a Lawyer looking for Loopholes.

    No difference from Douggie ESQUIRE’s “I did not know that woman In A Biblical Sense”.
    (Because if I didn’t stick Tab A in Slot B, it’s not REALLY sexual abuse or even adultery. LOOPHOLE! LOOPHOLE!)

  43. I would also answer YES to the original question: “Does the Combination of Certain Theological Aspects of Calvinism and ACBC (aka Biblical) Counseling Lead to Danger for Victims of Sex Abuse and Domestic Violence?”

    One aspect that hasn’t been mentioned yet is the “authoritarianism”. The Calvinist pastors that I know are very strong on their authority. Whether or not an abused woman might have “biblical grounds” for leaving a marriage (i.e. adultery) or whether or not she has legal grounds (physical/sexual abuse) is immaterial in their eyes. The ONLY thing that matters is whether or not the church authorities (pastors) give permission for her to leave. And they don’t give permission because they want their church to have the reputation for keeping marriages together. And they will go to any lengths (i.e. excommunicating the abused wife for leaving) to keep their authority intact.

  44. Sheila: Soul Care counseling at Harvest Bible Chapel

    It should be obvious by now that the only soul James MacDonald cared about at HBC was his own, particularly as it related to his wallet.

  45. Mary27: The ONLY thing that matters is whether or not the church authorities (pastors) give permission for her to leave. And they don’t give permission because they want their church to have the reputation for keeping marriages together.

    “There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only POWER.”
    — Lord Voldemort

  46. Jerome: “present members, most of them over 60 years old, will be invited to worship somewhere else. A memo recommends that they stay away for two years, then consult the pastor about reapplying”

    First, I am guessing that this is strictly against UMC rules, but I don’t belong to the UMC.

    Second, don’t these foolish young pups realize that old members probably named this church in their wills? All of that dough is now going to animal shelters, believe me.

  47. My family member who is deeply into the John MacArthur camp is also deeply into biblical counseling and ACBC etc. Has been for years.
    This person has been fundamentally dishonest with the rest of the family, as well as greedy. This is a change from the past. It has been distressing to watch their transformation over the last 15 years as they entered this world. They are not the person I would send anyone to for counseling.
    I hope you do more stories uncovering the MacArthur cult because I really think it is one.

  48. Friend: Second, don’t these foolish young pups realize that old members probably named this church in their wills? All of that dough is now going to animal shelters, believe me.

    Kicking out the older members is almost *never* the right financial move (in addition to being heartless), but I’m guess this guy is planning to use that big fat check from the denom and will cut and run if it doesn’t work out. He has no skin in the game, unlike the older members. Sounds like a consultant type who pops by, makes recommendations, and jumps to the next thing regardless of whether it works out ultimately. What does he care?

  49. Sheila: If you want a close-up look at how warped so much biblical counseling is, take a look at their homework! This list of 98 ways you can sin against your husband was given to a woman in Soul Care counseling at Harvest Bible Chapel when she was in an abusive/adulterous marriage. There is no equivalent for husbands, by the way.

    Hi Sheila,

    I remember when you mentioned this list a while ago, and it rang a bell because I used a Wayne Mack workbook for premarital counseling. So I dug it out. (Full disclosure – I’m the one who picked this book out to use. In looking at it now, I am embarrassed.)

    In defense of Dr. Mack, the workbook is more evenhanded in its treatment of men and women (each gender has scorecards for themselves and also opportunity to score each other). Still very aligned with traditional gender roles, but at least more evenhanded than what looks to be used currently in churches.

    HOWEVER, even if the more evenhanded version were used to develop newer biblical counseling materials, there are still profound problems with it. In the scorecards on being a husband or wife “God’s way,” the following appears:

    For future husbands: “I refrain from shouting at her, abusing her, talking harshly or unkindly to her or making unreasonable demands on her. I refrain from using force (physical or psychological) to get my own way.”

    For future wives: “I avoid shouting and screaming at him. I refrain from using force or threats or punishment to get my own way.”

    NOWHERE is there a note that this is an indicator of a deeper character flaw and a reason to postpone or cancel the wedding. Instead, it’s on the same list as “I am on time for dates” and “I try to change habits that are annoying to him/her.”

    Has anyone brought up the “all sin is equal in the eyes of God” theory, yet? If not, I’d include that among the certain theological aspects that can lead to danger.

  50. Lea: Kicking out the older members is almost *never* the right financial move (in addition to being heartless)

    The heartless young Calvinists at an SBC church in my area are finding that out. They took over a church we formerly attended by stealth and deception (the young pastor lied to the search committee about his theological leaning) and installed elder-rule polity after recruiting enough like-minded new members to vote in a change in church governance. When the established older (tithing) members caught on to their schemes, many left to start another church … leaving the church that they had financed behind. The new reformers are having trouble keeping the lights on now … barely enough revenue to pay for the staff. This generational shift in the control of SBC is tough on old folks.

  51. For whatever this anecdote might be worth….

    A number of years ago I felt trapped in a job because my sister was working with me, and to be honest, the only reason they kept her on was because I was there. At the time she was mostly supporting her struggling adult daughter and needed the job to do so. I knew that if I quit the job, it would have a cascading effect.

    Around that same time, a friend of mine had recently completed a Biblical counseling training program (I do NOT know which one) and I ran my situation by her.

    Interestingly… she informed me that the sole counsel she was supposed to give, under the training she had gotten, was essentially applying Scripture, pretty much verbatim.

    And then, having said that, she quoted the verse about bearing one another’s burdens, which does NOT say we are to bear secondhand burdens. In other words, my sister was bearing the burden of her daughter, which was her choice, but I had not chosen that burden and should not feel that I was required to carry it.

    Interestingly, this same friend from time to time posts John Piper quotes on her Facebook wall…. I wonder what advice she would give to someone who never wanted to have to see their abuser again.

    And for those wondering, the end of my story from above was that not too long after, they outsourced our entire department. I was never so happy to be fired in my life. And I didn’t have to bear the burden of being responsible for my sister losing her job.

  52. From personal experience, when a YRR pastor talks about reconciliation, what they usually mean is:
    Reconciliation = capitulation.

    Pastors/leaders expect the abused person to just accept their way, no questions asked, because “we’re the pastors”.

  53. John:
    My family member who is deeply into the John MacArthur camp is also deeply into biblical counseling and ACBC etc. Has been for years.
    This person has been fundamentally dishonest with the rest of the family, as well as greedy. This is a change from the past. It has been distressing to watch their transformation over the last 15 years as they entered this world. They are not the person I would send anyone to for counseling.
    I hope you do more stories uncovering the MacArthur cult because I really think it is one.

    I do seem to remember from the breakdown of the model that it seemed to resemble a pyramid in terms of how things were handled on the financial/drumming up business (sic) end of it.

  54. Loren Haas,

    ” I imagined the producers of this curriculum must have been under some pressure to incorporate “biblical counseling” because it was quite the rage in conservative church. This was the end of DivorceCare for us.”
    +++++++++

    importing ‘theological’ agendas because they are popular and are endorsed by big names was the end of church for me. (in part)

  55. elastigirl: importing ‘theological’ agendas because they are popular and are endorsed by big names was the end of church for me. (in part)

    Doing that in Bibles was for me. They use the Bible to end the discussion, but they translated the Bible with more concern that it fits their complementarian theology than what it actually says.

  56. A. Nony Moso,

    This is a great story!
    It highlights one of the many “challenges” of “Biblical Counseling”, and IMHO, gets to the heart of a more broad concept, and subsequent “challenge”.. that “Scripture is sufficient” for life. It reminds me of the well known fundamentalist phrase “G$d said it, I believe it, that settles it”.
    We could go on and on debating what all this means….

  57. Jerome: Church ‘Replanting’ scheme

    Terms like “replanting” and “revitalization” of churches within SBC ranks simply means we will provide you leaders and resources to help Calvinize you. It’s all part of the grand deception to reform the SBC with the one true gospel (gospel = Calvinism). The result of this “help” to struggling churches = SBC’s traditional whosoever-will-may-come message is replaced by reformed theology and older members are replaced by young whippersnappers who takeover the church buildings financed by the senior saints over their lifetimes. Doesn’t sound like a God-thing, does it?

  58. ishy: They use the Bible to end the discussion, but they translated the Bible with more concern that it fits their complementarian theology than what it actually says.

    The ESV Study Bible is their sword of choice … lots of Calvinist commentary in that one! The young reformers don’t have enough spiritual sense of their own to read any other version under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to interpret it themselves … they need old dead men like Calvin guiding them, sprinkled with words of wisdom from Piper, MacArthur and others in the commentary notes.

  59. Max: Doesn’t sound like a God-thing, does it?

    It’s not.
    But they’ll claim it is, based on what their honchos say the Bible says.
    Religious imperialism is as old as the hills.

  60. Max–the young whippersnappers taking over are not just in the SBC and not just Calvinists. Have you read about the UMC church rebranding and asking the senior saints not to attend there anymore?

  61. Jerome,

    Two thoughts: is this part of the neo-cal infiltration of the traditional wing of the UMC; are there only neo-cal seminaries left to attend, other than those liberally theologically or apostate?

    My Mom and my friend who is a transgender female, who staid by her wife after the transition, was told by the new pastor (former Baptist) that it was okay for her to stay at the UMC church she attended for years, but they didn’t want any of “your kind”, as the pastor put it.

    I know the UMC is splitting on doctrinal issues. Are the neo-cals taking advantage of it? Or, is the source for traditional UMC pastors small?

  62. The connection isn’t really Calvinism to “Biblical counseling” but more specifically complementarianism and authority to this kind of counseling. These two things (complementarianism and authority ) are strongly held in Calvinism but I’ve seen it also in your undefined or free-will Evangelicals as well.

    Whoever mentioned the MacArthur cult is correct . There is no discernment when a spouse is being abused. None at all.

  63. Brian: I know the UMC is splitting on doctrinal issues. Are the neo-cals taking advantage of it? Or, is the source for traditional UMC pastors small?

    The source for pastors is small, but from what I’ve seen, there’s a higher percentage of members who are conservative than pastors in that denomination. Also, a lot of the the pressure to split came from international churches and one small US organization of UMC churches. I watched the last convention, and that was quite clear from the voting.

    The New Cals can’t take advantage of most mainline churches because of the way they are set up. They are not autonomous, and in many cases, the denomination owns the churches, not the individual churches themselves. Since the main New Cal strategy is to go in and gain control of the finances, and by proxy, the church building itself, that wouldn’t fly in many mainline churches.

    This is actually why the UMC split has been so controversial–the churches that want to split want to take their building with them. And that has not historically been allowed.

  64. ishy: This is actually why the UMC split has been so controversial–the churches that want to split want to take their building with them. And that has not historically been allowed.

    But…. if the new denomination chooses to make church autonomous, which they might after this, then I have no doubt the New Cals will try to get in on that.

  65. ishy,

    “Doing that in Bibles was for me. They use the Bible to end the discussion, but they translated the Bible with more concern that it fits their complementarian theology than what it actually says.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    this silly religion of mine is like Madison Ave. ‘theology’ is based on:

    what’s trending (whatever the christian celebrities say),

    what sells (false modesty, guilt, prestige, formulas & quick fixes),

    who sells (christian celebrities),

    what motivates people to part with their $ (the more time one spends at church and church functions),

    what minimizes expenses and maximizes profits; cheap labor (if not honduras, then church volunteers),

    what builds power and wealth for those at the top (female subjugation-ordained-by-God, NDAs, church covenants, ‘patriotic separation of church & state celebrated with ‘pastor’ tax breaks and ‘church’ tax shelters, spiritualized self-entitlement…)

  66. Max,

    My church is elderly friendly. We have a van and minibus that will pick people up. For the music is a mix of 7/11 songs and trade hymns. The number of elderly in my church is slowly growing. My personal opinion, based somewhat on experience, churches are ditching their vans, eliminating a whole age group in the process.

  67. linda: Max–the young whippersnappers taking over are not just in the SBC and not just Calvinists. Have you read about the UMC church rebranding and asking the senior saints not to attend there anymore?

    Same spirit.

  68. Are their Bible based counseling programs that don’t victimize abused women, men, and children?

  69. Brian: eliminating a whole age group in the process

    New Testament examples of church indicated they were multi-generational. I don’t see any reason to change that for the sake of being culturally-relevant … baby boomers are part of the American culture, too! We need the energy of youth, coupled with the wisdom of age … young folks to speed things up, old folks to slow things down. I was young and now am old … gray hair doesn’t necessarily equal wisdom, but it helps … the church needs us.

  70. My second pastorate was the most satisfying for me because we had a huge senior adult ministry. Interestingly, as the work with senior adults grew, young families started coming because they loved all the senior adults being there for their kids, ie, “grandparents.”

  71. ishy: This is actually why the UMC split has been so controversial–the churches that want to split want to take their building with them. And that has not historically been allowed.

    Interesting! I think denomination splits are kind of tricky as far as where the buildings go. I’m trying to remember what happened when PCA split off from PCUSA, but I think the builds stayed with the new churches. In a lot of ways that makes sense, because if your congregation supported the church and wants to split off they should have some ownership?

    However I agree with a mainline it would be really hard to pick off individual churches. There is significantly more denominational oversite and interconnectedness. And there are a lot of requirements for new pastors that don’t exist in baptist churches.

  72. Luckyforward: Interestingly, as the work with senior adults grew, young families started coming because they loved all the senior adults being there for their kids, ie, “grandparents.”

    I am maybe not a ‘young family’ but I feel kind of the same. It’s comforting to have older adults you see regularly, in a familial way.

  73. Brian: Are their Bible based counseling programs that don’t victimize abused women, men, and children?

    In my experience, no. The bible (in some areas) stands at odds with respected counseling/therapy principles and practices. The bible may be a useful REFERENCE for therapy, but when it becomes the governing body, it will always lead to abusive “therapy”.

  74. Brian,

    “Are their Bible based counseling programs that don’t victimize abused women, men, and children?”
    +++++++++++++++

    i think it comes down to the level of how prescriptive or descriptive things in the bible are.

    my view is that going more and more in a prescriptive direction in how one interprets the bible leads to degrees of co-dependency and paranoia, and other neuroses.

    (as well as hateful and cruel practice. keeping in mind the difference between theory and practice. if the theory is ‘love’ but the practice is cruelty and hate, that alone will mess up a person’s mind. — as i see it, at least)

  75. Also, a PSA warning regarding Jonathan Holmes, up and coming “star” in the Biblical Counseling world. My wife and I were personally counseled by him and it was a key contributing factor in the collapse of our marriage. We came to Holmes and his team at Parkside Church (Alistair Begg’s church) early in our marriage when things began to fall off the rails, but their counseling stood in complete opposition to counseling I later received from secular psychologists after our divorce, and only accelerated our downfall by more deeply entrenching us in unhealthy thought patterns and relationship dynamics. My wife was, from the very beginning of our marriage prone to depressive episodes and violent rages (something she’d managed to keep hidden during dating partially thanks to us keeping a “healthy distance” at the recommendation of our pastors).

    He and his peers refused to acknowledge mental illness as a reality, but instead repeatedly asserted that mental illness is in actuality a problem with a person’s faith. (My wife was years later diagnosed with BPD, borderline personality disorder). However, Holmes and team continually asserted that her problem was not trusting God enough in helping her “be more submissive” to me at home. Her rages, tirades, violent outbursts, running away, depressive episodes in bed for days on end, lack of emotion, etc etc etc… all because she “wouldn’t” trust God more and submit to her husband. She was diagnosed with depression during our time under Holmes (a friend convinced her to see a psychiatrist, briefly) and while Holmes and team discouraged the use of antidepressants, one of the wives of one of Holmes teammates discretely confessed to us that she used them and found it to be a lifesaver.

    After several years, Holmes and the church referred us to a Christian counselor who did not fare much better. A couple of years after that, we divorced. Since then I found a secular counselor (who is actually a strong Christian) who has finally led me down a road to recovery and health.

    I cannot think about this topic as a whole, or those people in particular, without coming to tears and feeling strong anger and sorrow.

    They wrecked us. We were young and vulnerable and we trusted them. We gave them authority in our lives and they used that position to poison our hearts and minds. Thankfully I am mostly better, but my ex still follows their teaching. And our kids will only ever know a separated home.

    And if they did it to us, they’ve done it to hundreds of others. Since leaving him and his church behind, I have met countless others with the same story, and many are still so broken they can barely talk about it. Some have found health and happiness in other area churches, some will never step foot in a church again.

    A river of wellness BLOOD flows from Holmes’ practice and Parkside Church.

    From his counseling practice’s website:

    “Does Fieldstone Counseling use licensed professionals?
    Fieldstone Counseling does not use licensed professionals. Your Fieldstone counselor is trained in the use of the Scriptures in counseling settings. Although some of our counselors have additional training and/or licensure, for purposes of their counseling at Fieldstone, they solely practice biblical counseling, which requires a commitment to the position that the Scriptures provide the authoritative rule of faith and standard of conduct. Please note that, as biblical counselors, Fieldstone counselors are not professional counselors or professional therapists as described in Chapter 4757 of the Ohio Revised Code, and Fieldstone Counseling does not otherwise provide professional clinical counseling or professional mental health services.”

    Visiting them would be akin to visiting someone who calls themselves a doctor but is in fact only a “faith healer”. Holmes and all those who follow this kind of “counseling” are charlatans and vipers.

    DO NOT TRUST BIBLICAL COUNSELORS

    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/profile/jonathan-holmes/
    https://www.biblicalcounselingcoalition.org/person/jonathan-holmes/
    https://fieldstonecounseling.org/about

    https://www.parksidechurch.com/visit/our-team/
    https://www.parksidechurch.com/connect/counseling-support/counseling-copy/faq/#page-title
    Holmes is on staff with Alistair Begg’s church, where a number of pastors are also “counselors”, though their website indicates they rely PRIMARILY on LAY COUNSELORS.

    BEWARE.

  76. Luckyforward,

    “church-allegedly-asked-older-members-leave-leaders-say-that-didnt-actually-happen/”
    +++++++++++++++++

    let me guess: leaders made a ‘polite’ suggestion that they leave, with the implied threat that if they don’t they will be personally compromising God’s ability to save souls — and they will have to live with that indictment against them, both in this life and the one to come.

  77. Luckyforward: young families started coming because they loved all the senior adults being there for their kids, ie, “grandparents.”

    Makes sense, doesn’t it? In New Calvinist church plants in my area, attendance by senior adults seems to be OK as long as they are like female members: “Sit down and shut up!”

  78. Max:
    “Calvin specifically suggested that the Almighty programmed humanity for spouse battering, writing that a wife must “bear with patience the cross which God has seen fit to place upon her.” He taught, Sandage says, that wives “were not allowed to leave their husbands when beaten.””

    So I found and read Mr. Sandage’s article, there is no citation of where he found this quote from Calvin on God making the spouse for battering. Can anyone else find it? I have never seen this quote or anything really like it from Calvin. Anyone?

  79. Jeremy: So I found and read Mr. Sandage’s article, there is no citation of where he found this quote from Calvin on God making the spouse for battering. Can anyone else find it? I have never seen this quote or anything really like it from Calvin. Anyone?

    I googled “bear with patience the cross which God has seen fit to place upon her” and found this:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=oR1Y3f8wiHIC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=%E2%80%9Cbear+with+patience+the+cross+which+God+has+seen+fit+to+place+upon+her.%E2%80%9D+john+calvin&source=bl&ots=SlzwoHFppR&sig=ACfU3U1eNYG8ZjbMUaTz32yB7JPD_Mqu2Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjG5rKM3JrnAhV1AZ0JHfbQCgQQ6AEwAHoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=%E2%80%9Cbear%20with%20patience%20the%20cross%20which%20God%20has%20seen%20fit%20to%20place%20upon%20her.%E2%80%9D%20john%20calvin&f=false

    Following the footnote, the quote can evidently be found in “Letters of John Calvin.”

  80. Jeremy: I have never seen this quote or anything really like it from Calvin

    Reminder that most of John Calvin’s works to this day remain inaccessible, yet to be translated to English after hundreds of years.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=sGHKcZI3XAMC&pg=PA2

    “To anyone lacking Latin or Renaissance French, much of the writings of John Calvin must remain inaccessible. While his major works—the Institutes of the Christian Religion being the prime example—are available in English in both book and electronic form, many of his characteristic expressions—his sermons, letters, tracts, polemics, writings on liturgy and church regulations—are not.”

    I posted here previously about his preface to the French Geneva Bible (a vile attack on Sebastian Castellion, in a Bible!)

  81. Thank you both. Jerome, the link you posted, is that where the quote can be found or something else?

  82. That link is to what I quoted in my post.

    Here is the vile attack on Sebastian Castellion in the Bible de Geneve:

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/05/30/the-great-calvinista-divide-bless-your-little-obviously-unenlightened-hearts/#comment-256919

    “This, in a Bible? Sick.”

    “Car au lieu qu’un temps a esté’qu’il n’y auoit point de translation Françoise de l’Escripture, au moins qui meritast ce nom: maintenant Satan a trouué autant de translateurs qu’il y a d’esprits legers & oultrecuidez qui manient les Escriptures: & trouuera encores desormais de plus en plus, si Dieu n’y pouruoit par sa grace. Si on en demande quelque exemple, nous en produirons vn qui seruira pour plusieurs, c’est a scauoir la translation de la Bible Latine & Francoise en auant par Sebastian Chastillon, homme si bien cognu en ceste Eglise tant par son ingratitude & impudence, que par la peine qu’on a per due apres luy pour le reduire au bon chemin, que nous ferions conscience, non seulement de taire son nom (comme iusques ici nous auons fait) mais aussi de n’aduertir tous Chrestiens de se garder d’vn tel personnage, comme instrument choisi de Satan pour amuser tous esprits volages & indiscrets.”

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/05/30/the-great-calvinista-divide-bless-your-little-obviously-unenlightened-hearts/#comment-256964

    Ken F: “My wife grew up speaking French, so I asked her to read the entire quote…She would have to do a little research to fairly translate it into English because we don’t have common English words that accurately capture the brutality of the character assassination. In France those words would currently be used by a prosecutor trying to convince a jury of the heinous crimes of the worst kind of offender.”

  83. Jerome: Ken F: “My wife grew up speaking French…

    Wow, you have great memory. My wife re-read this again just now and said any French speaker will understand what he wrote – it does not require any special knowledge of old French. Afte re-reading it, she is even more repulsed, revulsed, and disgusted than when she read this in 2016. She said, “God forbid that I would ever utter such contemptable words against a fellow brother or sister in Christ. May God protect me from ever cursing anyone like that.” She said she can translate it if you would like.

  84. Isn’t it saying of the rival French Bible translator:

    [paraphrase]
    “Sebastian Castellion is Satan’s translator…silence him…warn all Christians to beware of him, the chosen instrument of Satan”

  85. Jerome,
    I am admittedly ignorant on the greater debate between Castellion and Calvin so I will reserve analysis or attempts to discuss until I learn more. However, I do have a thought on why Calvin would have included this preface to the Bible. Given the time period the most likely book that most people would own would be a Bible as it was still a period of general poverty but with the printing press, books and pamphlets are becoming popular. The Bible would be the most efficient mode of transmitting what Calvin would have believed an important spiritual issue. It would, to me make sense to combine the two. Understand, I’m not making a right or wrong judgement about the content of the message because I do not know enough to do so but I do see the logic behind the mode of communication. What are your thoughts on that point?

  86. Jeremy: The Bible would be the most efficient mode of transmitting what Calvin would have believed

    That’s why the New Calvinists promote the ESV Study Bible, the MacArthur Study Bible, and other contortions of Scripture … they transmit what Calvin (and they) believe.

  87. Jerome: “Sebastian Castellion is Satan’s translator…silence him…warn all Christians to beware of him, the chosen instrument of Satan”

    My wife said this paraphrase accurately captures what he wrote, but it captures only the tame part. The rest is needed for context. She said she might translate the rest this weekend.

  88. Max: That’s why the New Calvinists promote the ESV Study Bible, the MacArthur Study Bible, and other contortions of Scripture … they transmit what Calvin (and they) believe.

    Word of CALVIN instead of Word of God?

  89. Ken F (aka Tweed): My wife re-read this again just now and said any French speaker will understand what he wrote – it does not require any special knowledge of old French.

    French changes much slower than English over time.
    (English is the fastest-mutating language in the world.)

  90. elastigirl: let me guess: leaders made a ‘polite’ suggestion that they leave, with the implied threat that if they don’t they will be personally compromising God’s ability to save souls — and they will have to live with that indictment against them, both in this life and the one to come.

    i.e. Total Plausible Deniability, all figured out in advance.
    In my personal experience, THAT is the Mark of a Sociopath and a Manipulator.

  91. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    P.S. Also in my experience, Sociopaths and Manipulators are ALWAYS Polite.
    To the point that to me, Politeness is another Mark of a Sociopath.
    (Mnd the memory is starting to trigger me, so I’d better stop now.)

  92. Michigan State University, Home Economics, 1895-2005

    http://archives.msu.edu/collections/home_economics_maturity.php

    “In 1941, the Home Economics Division was reorganized…The name was changed in 1944 to the School of Home Economics.”

    “in 1970…the name of the college changed to the College of Human Ecology”

    “In 2005…The university’s administration decided to eliminate the college and realign its academic programs with other programs and departments on campus.”

  93. Max,

    So is there an inherent flaw in the ESV translation? If so what is the flaw? Which translation would you recommend in its place? Full disclosure when I do work from Scripture I use the ESV, NIV, HCSB, and NKJV and a limited understanding Greek and Hebrew emphasis on limited. I have found discrepancies here and there but nothing among those three that would make me use the word contortion as the adjective. In fact in various places i would move a person from one translation to another because I think one hits the translation better here or there than the others etc.etc.

  94. Headless Unicorn Guy: French changes much slower than English over time.

    She said a dedicated native French speaker should have no trouble with the text. But because it has some words that are no longer commonly used, a web-based translator might have problems.

  95. Jeremy: So is there an inherent flaw in the ESV translation?

    I don’t have a real problem with the regular ESV itself … it’s very comparable to the NIV translation. I actually have an ESV in my Bible collection and have referred to it occasionally. My concern lies with the ESV Study Bible with marginal commentaries which put a Calvinist slant to Scripture. My use of “contortion” referred to those commentaries, not the ESV text itself. I suppose there might be some ESV passages which have been translated to support reformed theology since it is published by Crossway (a leading publisher of all things Calvinist) with leading Calvinists on the translation oversight committee (e.g., Grudem and Packer), but I haven’t done a thorough look at that … I suspect some Wartburgers might have.

  96. Jeremy,

    “So is there an inherent flaw in the ESV translation?”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    it’s partly some interpretive liberties, and what seems to me an attempt to reprogram christian culture through deceptive means. there was a time when biblegateway seemed to only have commentary from the ESV.

    ESV, Crossway….. shades of The Ministry of Propaganda.

    –i’ve observed churches which suddenly join The Gospel Coalition. they had a fortune in perfectly good bibles of another translation, and then overnight they’re all replaced with hundreds of ESV bibles.

    –i’ve always read from multiple versions. i took 2 years of greek and interpreted some NT myself (not that i’m an expert, but i have experience with the nestle aland text, lexicons, etc.)

    I’ve observed many verses in the ESV which have shocked me in how they lead the reader to somewhat of a specific & narrow interpretation, when other translations leave more interpretive room. verses which are debatable and which are on the ambiguous side in the original languages.

    even in psalms, it seems those behind the ESV have chosen to decide for everyone else the concrete meaning of poetic imagery, again leading the reader to a much more narrow and specific meaning…. i mean, they killed poetry. dried it up. turned something with wondrous fluid depth of meaning into 1-dimension cardboard. like technical writing. or the back of a box of bisquik.

    i’m in a little bible study with someone who reads from her ESV. Again, i am shocked at how dogmatic her discussion is, when there is really quite a spectrum of how to understand things.

    –crossway issued a revision with a controversial change in Genesis which supports the complementarian agenda. they then announced that this revision will be the final unchanged one, for perpetuity. no opportunity for assessment/evaluation. as if they have the last word. flooding christianland with it. Deb and Wartburg Watch and Scott McKnight wrote about it.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/09/16/can-you-really-trust-the-english-standard-version-esv/

    https://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2016/09/12/the-new-stealth-translation-esv/

  97. The whole of the Calvinist way is 1. don’t ask questions. 2. trust your leadership as they have been “entrusted with your souls” and are the ones who should decide what steps you take…3. and I mean, don’t ask questions about ANYTHING. If you choose to participate and stay in an environment like that, and you don’t protect yourself, then what you get is what you get. But make no mistake about it, that is CULT behavior and they are CULT leaders. IMO. My advice is go to the police only…never go to a church or their leaders about an abusive situation inside the church or inside your own home. Nobody is going to “rescue” you but YOU. (and God) so take the responsibility for yourself and your family. Any mother or father who would allow an abusive spouse back into a home and there is continuing abuse should be criminally charged along with the abusive spouse for further abuse taking place. I also believe ACBC should be held criminally responsible for their pathetic “advice” but that’s another story. You have no problem on this blog advocating for pastors being held responsible for abuse in churches that they covered up or overlooked, so why isn’t ACBC and its leaders coming under the same fire? I find most of what is said a crock of crap to be honest these days. And if I had stayed in a church like this or ACBC counseling that I was in, I would hold myself responsible for what would have taken place. I left, and nobody is stopping anyone else from leaving either. Leave that environment, and take responsibility for yourself, and stop blaming others for your problems.

  98. elastigirl,

    I looked at the McKnight article. As a KJV literalist, verse Genesis 3:16 in the ESV is actually “contrary” to the KJV.

    I will sometimes read the the passage in the ESV, I’ve read in the KJV.

  99. elastigirl,

    I never heard of either complementarianism or egalitarianism until this blog. From a battlefield analogy, the neo-cals control the field, i.e., the debate, the terminology. Now they have a seminary and publishing structer behind them. There is a slow creeping growth of their theology in the non neo-cal world.

    Maybe, groups like the Wesleyan Covenant Association will start making their impact, an alternative to the neo-cals.