“You win some and you lose some, but you get paid for all of them.” —Anonymous
My experience with an SBC church which used an attorney to get information.
Before I started this blog, a group of us confronted an SBC church due to what we perceived to be a mishandling of reports of a SEBTS (Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary) student, Doug Goodrich, who had molested 13+ young teen boys in the church. Some of this abuse continues to be the worst cases of abuse that I have ever heard. It’s so bad, I still can’t write about it.
We believed that the church had received reports of the despicable behavior of this volunteer and decided to ignore them, chalking it up to *boys will be boys.* An internal investigation was set up by the elders. (Yes- an internal investigation.) Shortly into this process which, not surprisingly would clear the church from any serious wrongdoing, we received a request to meet with a woman who we were told was an expert on child sex abuse. The idea was for her to ask us all sorts of questions about our *concerns.*
Dee, suspicious that there was more to this story, looked up this woman’s background. Medical people are inherently suspicious of outsiders asking them specific questions. In fact, she was an attorney in a law firm. She called me, concerned that we didn’t trust her intentions! Needless to say, we never did meet for coffee. I knew then that we had a serious problem with the trustworthiness of the leaders in our church. An attorney is always an attorney. Shortly thereafter I left the church and started a blog, wondering if this sort of reaction by a church was normal. It sure is, 11 years later.
SNAP said that this was a typical tactic that was first seen when the Roman Catholic Church was confronted by victims
I began to discuss my concerns with SNAP. They opened my eyes .I knew then that I was terribly naive about the extent of sexual abuse in churches. Even more, II realized how inexperienced I was in dealing with the response to abuse in the evangelical church. Specifically, I grew in knowledge of the tactics used to protect the church, leaders and denominations against litigation. The Wartburg Watch was born and I got smarter every year.
The SBC/ERLC were forced to deal with their serious sex abuse issue due to the reporting of the Houston Chronicle.
The ERLC, which hosted the Caring Well Initiative, is for all intents and purposes just one more arm of the SBC from which the derive money. They are now on an ill advised fundraising kick, using victims to ask for money to be donated for some sort of ill defined purpose within the ERLC.
It is my intention to help victims understand the *rest of the story* when they hear about the supposedly wonderful initiatives to help those who have been abused in the SBC. We have been concerned about which victims have been supported and which victims who have not been supported. Victims like Christa Brown, Tiffany Thigpen, and Jules Woodson-all abused in the SBC and all who named or reported their abusers- were studiously ignored by the SBC. They are very well versed, not only as advocates for those abused but have been featured in articles. They have dealt with the legal system. Christa has been involved for years!
Could it be that those who were willing to litigate their Baptist abusers and are extremely knowledgeable in the subject of how poorly the SBC handled this through the years, are considered unwelcome while those who didn’t go down that road are more acceptable? To be truthful, I don’t know but something in this system is whacked.
Wasn’t the SBC/ERLC/Executive Committee supposed to help victims?
Color me blind but I saw all of the crocodile tears and promises of repentance on the part of the leaders. Promises were made that things were going to be different. Heads were going to roll…except they didn’t. Yeah, there was some nice material sent to churches but there was some controversial writing discussing how the church was going to reach out and invite pedophiles to church. Such pronouncements were naive and simplistic. We are talking about churches and leaders who have mishandled sex abuse for years yet they still think they know how to do it…Seriously?
I have been working with a number of victims within the SBC and have experienced tremendous frustration of the lack of movement in the SBC/ERLC/EC. No, I will not be patient. Each day more and more of our dear children are abused.Where do I tell these families to go for help?
It looks like a hired ERLC attorney wants to hear the stories.
I am pretty darn frustrated with myself. As I worked with the families in these coming stories, I told them that there might be help forthcoming from the the deeply repentant SBC. I thought Phillip Bethancourt wanted to hear the stories. Once again, I was mistaken.
Who is Attorney Palmer Williams?
Here is her bio on the ERLC website. I am sure she is a lovely person who has helped many people. However, she is still an attorney who has been hired by the ERLC/SBC. Guess where her loyalty sits and don’t play the Jesus card.
A Founding Partner of The Peacefield Group, Palmer Williams specializes in legal and policy analysis related to international human rights, sanctity of life, non-profit operations and government affairs. As a licensed attorney knowledgeable in international law, she has extensive experience advocating for human rights on the international stage, including at the United Nations. Additionally, she has worked with government agencies and faith-based organizations to launch statewide initiatives and grassroots organizing campaigns. Palmer assists clients in crafting messaging, long-term strategic planning and operationalizing their values.
She earned her Juris Doctor from Vanderbilt Law School and her B.A. in Political Science and Community Development from Vanderbilt University. Palmer also spent several years living and serving in sub-Saharan Africa, working with grassroots NGOs serving vulnerable children and victims of the HIV epidemic.
Palmer geeks out about orphan care work, Abigail Adams and her Southern Living magazine. Palmer and her husband, Joseph, have two sons, Jack and Henry, and live in Nashville, TN.
Christa Brown’s initial contact with Attorney Palmer Williams told in her own words.
It appears that her contact from Williams occurred in March 2019. This date is important since she allegedly told some folks recently that she is a new hire of the ERLC. Also, Bob Allen is the well known journalist with Baptist Global who I often quote here.
Last March, ERLC attorney Palmer Williams contacted me, wanting to set up a 2 on 1 phone call with her and Bethancourt to talk with me about “your experience.” I responded that I thought it was a misstep to say “hello” via attorney to an SBC survivor and that this misstep illustrated why they needed a “safe place” office with trauma trained professionals. I also said the 2 on 1 set-up was off-putting.
I then told them I had concerns about transparency & told a bit of my history — i.e., to point out that it’s not just about the abuse & cover-up but also the fact that SBC leaders, acting in their official capacities, had said ugly things about me, and that Boto had written on SBC Exec Com letterhead that “discourse between us will not be positive or fruitful.” I asked if their request to speak with me was to serve as a negation of Boto’s letter. No answer on that, but Williams responded that I could have someone else join me on the call.
So I set things up with reporter Bob Allen. I provided Williams with 12 possible time slots in which I could be available to talk with her and Bethancourt, and told her reporter Bob Allen would be listening on the call with me. Silence. I held the time slots open, waiting to hear from them. After leaving me hanging for nearly 2 weeks, they finally said no. Reluctantly, Bob Allen even offered to have their part of the conversation be on a “not for attribution” basis so that they wouldn’t be identified by name. They still said no & said it would have to be completely off the record, that Bob could be there as a support person but not as a journalist (which I thought was pretty insulting for Bob). I sent them 2 complimentary copies of my book.
They acknowledged receipt. That was it. They never said a single word about anything in my book. I don’t know if they even read any part of it. I doubt it. I was left to wonder why I had bothered to take the time to communicate with them at all. I’m reminded of something Boz said at Caring Well – that it amazed him that some survivors would still even attempt to communicate with SBC leaders. And yet, we do.
This is Christa’s reply to Palmer Williams.
Hello Palmer,
No matter how well-intentioned you and Philip Bethancourt may be as individuals, I find it concerning that the ERLC would choose to initiate communication with an SBC abuse survivor via someone who identifies as legal counsel for an SBC entity. From the get-go, saying “hello” via attorney does not strike me as a method that would put many survivors at ease. I also find the immediate attempt to set it up as a 2-on-1 conversation to be off-putting, which is a concern I’ve heard from other survivors as well.
The fact that you would make such obvious missteps speaks to the reality of why the SBC needs a “safe place” office for engaging communication with SBC abuse survivors – i.e., an office staffed by professionals with trauma-informed training, experience and protocols.
From what I have seen to date, I cannot consider the SBC’s in-house study as having much credibility:
(1) it is not being conducted by an outside independent third-party;
(2) it appears lacking in transparency;
(3) it allows the SBC to retain control; and (4) it doesn’t include provision for a “safe place” office.I’ve written more about these inherent flaws here: Clergy sex abuse: why the SBC’s ‘studying it’ response isn’t enough
If the SBC engages a transparent, trauma-informed, and truly independent study, then I would be willing to again share my experience. The reason I say “again” is because I have previously shared my experience with SBC officials.
Briefly, I want to make sure you are aware of at least the bare bones of that history.
With other SNAP members, I wrote to SBC officials in August and September of 2006, requesting that the SBC use my story as a launchpad for change to make kids safer and specifically requesting that the SBC establish an independent board to archive records on credibly accused clergy sex abusers and to inform congregations. The need for a denominational system of record-keeping and information-sharing was obvious at the time, and many others have noted it since then.
SNAP Letters: Letter to Southern Baptist Convention
In a collaborative spirit, we offered to work together with SBC officials, but SBC official Augie Boto responded by stating that “continued discourse between us will not be positive or fruitful.”
Letter to the SBC Executive Committee
Does your current request to speak with me negate or override Boto’s response? He is after all the current interim president of the SBC Executive Committee, and he expressly stated that his response was made on behalf of all the officials to whom we had written, including the ERLC president.
I also shared my experience before a meeting of the bylaws workgroup of the Executive Committee in 2007. In the hope of helping Southern Baptists see the need for better safeguarding of children, I spoke at considerable cost to myself and with very little kindness extended. To the contrary, acting in their official capacities, and publicly through the use of Baptist-controlled media, SBC leaders perversely twisted my words so as to publicly smear me as someone making “false accusations” and “false charges.” (You can read more about this episode in my book at pages 176-182, which includes footnote documentation.)
I hope this bit of history may give you some insight into why I might now be reluctant to have my words filtered through an SBC office. SBC leaders vilified me as an “opportunist,” a person of “no integrity,” and an “evil-doer.” And that’s only the name-callings that were publicly reported. I’ve also received reams of hate mail filled with ugly vitriol, some of it truly frightening, and I believe that much of this hatefulness was fueled in part by the demonizing rhetoric that came from the highest levels of SBC leadership.
All of this, and more, was profoundly painful, and I am not inclined to pretend that these things never happened. To the contrary, I believe a pretend-it-never-happened culture is part of the problem within the SBC, and it contributes to abuse cover-ups. In light of this history, I prefer at this point to communicate via email.
When SBC leaders speak in their official capacities and write on SBC letterhead, they are speaking and acting for the institution. So, while you and Philip Bethancourt may not bear individual responsibility for the dehumanizing sorts of meanness that I encountered in SBC leadership, you are nevertheless part of the same institution, and there has never been anything even resembling an institutional apology. I’m not hoping for one or expecting one, but at the same time, I’m also not willing to pretend that the mere passage of time renders such rudeness and cruelty inconsequential.
I haven’t even attempted to tell you about the horror of the sexual abuse that a pastor inflicted on me when I was a kid or about the nightmare in how the church of my childhood responded. The awfulness in how top SBC leaders treated me is enough for one email, and of course, what I’ve written here is just a small piece of it.
Since you’re with the ERLC, I’m reminded of a recently reported case. After getting no response from the SBC when she wrote asking “how to turn in a pedophile,” a woman then wrote to the ERLC. According to the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, in February 2018, Lauren Konkol of the ERLC responded that “this matter is not in the scope of our role, authority or ability.”
That’s a chilling child-endangering response coming from your own SBC entity. I’d be happy to send you two complimentary copies of my book – “This Little Light: Beyond a Baptist Preacher Predator and his Gang.” Just let me know and give me a mailing address. People tell me it’s a fast read – about 2 ½ hours. If you want, you can find more of my writings on this subject on my site:
And this recent news article provides the gist of my story.
Newspaper story on sexual abuse in SBC was a long time coming for activist Christa Brown
It’s time for action.
Regards, Christa Brown
Others have been contacted by Attorney Palmer Williams, even more recently.
As you read Christa’s letter, you will see that other survivors have been treated in a similar matter. I have recently been made aware of other instances and I find this profoundly disturbing. She is hardly a brand new hire since Christa was in contacted by her last March.
It is obvious that Phillip Bethancourt is turfing stuff to her. Why? ‘lll let you decide.
Why do I find this disturbing?
If the SBC/ERLC/EC really wanted to care for victims, they would have hired a licensed trauma informed counselor to reach out to the victims. Such a conversation would have been confidential. They would not hire a biblical counselor since the ACBC does not guarantee confidentiality. They believe in reporting sin to pastors, etc. One of the teen boys that was molested in my former church was asked by an elder, “Didn’t you know that was wrong?” To this day, I can barely contain myself.
Now, an attorney hired by the ERLC/SBC/EC is beholden to the entity which has hired her. Think about who would get to hear about a victim’s pain and even if the victim is considering litigation.
Recommendation:
I know that Christa would join me in recommending that no victim meet with Palmer Williams or any other attorney hired by the SBC. I bet they have lots and lots of them. For the moment, I believe that the SBC is channeling the tactics of the Roman Catholic Church. Guess how that turned out.
1 BAM
Why- just why can’t churches do what is right, on their own the first time around? Of all places, they should be the ones doing what is right and setting an example for others to follow.
Uhm, I just have three words: “conflict of interest.” ERLC/SBC, just stop it.
Right out of the rule book. I was with Dee when this all took place in our last church. (By the way, is Doug out of prison yet?) I have something to say to the SBC and ERLC:
King James Bible
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Lois,
Because they are not really “the church”??!
Some of what apparently happened here with the ERLC immediately brought to mind how the elders at Willow Creek Community Church attempted to bring “reconciliation” with the women who reported their experiences re: sexual abuse/harassment and abuse of power by Bill Hybels.
WCCC hired a conciliator, whose fiduciary duty is to the hiring institution, and whose conciliation principles end up putting survivors in a bind.
These approaches, as Christa has wisely noted, lack transparency and safety, and could be said to be deceptive. From all of which I therefore take this as lack of integrity — they give the illusion of constructive working on resolution by the institution, but in fact end up with further destructive trauma and silencing of victims. It ultimately protects and promotes the institution, not the individuals victimized.
I’ve been one who’s said multiple times that I felt that 2019-2020 were a last chance for the SBC as a whole to show *substantial* movement in shifting course on issues involving sexual abuse and the abuse of power that gets applied to protect the institutions. Every month, I lose more hope that repair is possible and more sense that dismantling by implosion is probable. Oh, I suppose that the people and programs and such will last — but how can you claim to be evangelical and missionary-minded when the network as a whole maintains a horrific reputation on sexual abuse, but when, for instance, a third of all women in the world are victims of sexual abuse/violence?
If the SBC/ERLC/EC really wanted to care for victims, they would have hired a licensed trauma informed counselor to reach out to the victims. Such a conversation would have been confidential. They would not hire a biblical counselor since the ACBC does not guarantee confidentiality.
YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES ad infinitum.
ATTORNEYS REPRESENT THOSE WHO PAY THEIR FEES. ATTORNEYS REPORT TO THOSE WHO PAY THEIR FEES. IN COURT ACTIONS ATTORNEYS REPRESENT THOSE TO WHOM THEY HAVE BEEN PAID A RETAINER.
Sorry if my shouting upset anyone . . .
#ChildrenToo because children matter.
#ChurchToo when it goes to the Dark Side.
The “in-house study” seems to be more a whitewash.
Jesus had a few things to say about whitewash:
“Scourge to you, religious leaders, posers: whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside are full of death and toxic filth.” Matt. 23.27
– also Ez. 13 & 22.
The SBC’s Caring Well guide that was used at the ERLC’s Caring Well Conference and is being disbursed to SBC churches throughout the US, has a section in it with quotes from Christa Brown. It’s titled in all bold, CHRISTA BROWN, ADVOCATE & SURVIVOR OF SEXUAL ABUSE AT A SOUTHERN BAPTIST CHURCH. While none of her quotes flatter the SBC, her name and the description of her as an advocate & survivor of SBC sex abuse implies that she is a part of this process and is working together in cooperation with Team ERLC.
Many of the other survivors with their tan box features were part of the “designated survivor” speaker team and were clearly selected by the ERLC because of their message that survivors need to not just stay in church, but turn to the church for support. This message is so tone-deaf I don’t know where to begin. Naturally, Christa was not a featured speaker.
IMO, the SBC ERLC is using her name to add legitimacy to their theatrics. Survivors know Christa Brown as one of the strongest voices against SBC and other clerical sexual & spiritual abuse. It sounds like if Christa Brown is allowing her name & quotes to be featured then, of course, she’s on board with Caring Well. It’s implied that she’s been reconciled with the SBC, because it would be so exploitative for them to include her in a tan survivor feature box if she wasn’t supportive of what the ERLC is doing with Caring Well.
This is terribly misleading. I hope this highlights how insincere, duplicitous and deceptive the SBC is. Even when they know the world is watching, they cannot resist twisting things to their advantage. I dare say Ms Brown needs to write one more letter.
https://caringwell.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/SBC-Caring-Well-Report-June-2019.pdf
“If the SBC/ERLC/EC really wanted to care for victims, they would have hired a licensed trauma informed counselor to reach out to the victims.” (Dee)
Or how about a pastor?! The SBC has thousands of them ministering to millions of people. Some of them are even the real deal.
As a former 70 year member of the SBC, I can say this wasn’t always the case. The patient took a turn for the worse when the New Calvinists started doctoring the denomination. Deception is their modus operandi.
Happened in Jesus’ day & He was intolerant of their shenanigans.
This is easy for me to say, but I would love to see the SBC sued by Christa Brown for the way she has been treated by them. How lovely to take depositions under oath! All the usual suspects to put their hand on a bible and swear to tell the truth. Their sweaty brows and shifty eyes. Shades of the Chantry trial
Luckyforward,
Not only what you wrote, but it is legal malpractice if they DO NOT do what you summarized!
It is misleading, at a minimum, for the SBC lawyer to be represented as A person that is compassionate about the social issues she listed. Someone that does not understand the legal system might read that as “Oh good, that means she understands me, and I can tell her everything”. To me, it says, oh, this lawyer really knows about abuse, and since she is a lawyer, and representing SBC, she can use anything she gets out of the victim to legally protect the SBC…
AND, good lawyers know how to protect their clients…..
Luckyforward,
Not only what you wrote, but it is legal malpractice if they DO NOT do what you summarized!
It is misleading, at a minimum, for the SBC lawyer to be represented as A person that is compassionate about the social issues she listed. Someone that does not understand the legal system might read that as “Oh good, that means she understands me, and I can tell her everything”. To me, it says, oh, this lawyer really knows about abuse, and since she is a lawyer, and representing SBC, she can use anything she gets out of the victim to legally protect the SBC…
AND, good lawyers know how to protect their clients…..
Max,
Because in the SBC, apparently, providing confort, spiritual support, advice, (i.e. ministering) is not in a pastors job description? NO, leave it to lawyers, payed by the church, to do it for you..
It does beg the question what the SBC pastors are there for; except of course to tell us pew peons what to do?
I continued to be haunted by the U-tube video of Al Mohler saying “ where else will they go” with respect to how his Neo-Calvin churches are the only game in town…. just like I am suppose to trust that the Roman Catholic Church will keep boys safe from predatory priests…
Thank you for pointing this out, Amy Moore. I was terribly dismayed when I saw their use of my name in their Caring Well guide. Particularly given that the ERLC had refused to even speak with me in a transparent manner, as I requested, it seemed to me downright deceptive that they would then use my prior published work in such a way. And yeah, I felt exploited.
And I also couldn’t help but notice that, even though the thrust of my message for 15 years has been the need for cooperative DENOMINATIONAL action, they clipped the quoted excerpt to appear as though I spoke only about local church leaders. The very next sentence of that published op-ed begins “Denominational leaders have sat back…” Of course, that’s where they clipped it.
Only in New Calvinist ranks. There are 47,000 SBC churches … not all of them have surrendered to the new reformation. There are thousands of genuine pastors in traditional SBC life; I was fortunate during a 70-year SBC tenure to know many real-deal pastors who loved and ministered to their congregations. That, of course, will change as the YRR take further control of the denomination … it just ain’t in their skill set to pastor according to the Biblical model.
As is noted daily in TWW posts and elsewhere, deception is modus operandi among the New Calvinists which have taken over the SBC.
Another sad duplicity in the Caring Well guide: It quotes NAMB president Kevin Ezell saying “Every church has to be prepared. One victim is too many.” But it doesn’t say word one about the reality of how dreadfully Ezell himself responded when he had a sexual abuse case in his own church — a volunteer/employee who ultimately pled guilty to sexually abusing 7 boys. http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2010/09/ezells-failed-leadership-on-sexual.html
Christa Brown,
Just read the link… clear that Kevil Ezell was more concerned with his and the church image than we was about the boys being molested… this just disgusts me… There are so many other ways this situation in his church could have been handled… And this guy gets elected to head SBC.. yup, really respect that outfit…
Ya’ know, it really gets tiring when you (generic you) read about the SBC/ERLC and their endless bandaid remedies. Pounds and pounds of cure, but not one gram of prevention by thorough vetting protocols before ‘volunteers’ can get anywhere near kids and teens.
Wade Burleson was an advocate for the same years ago, and he was ignored by their (SBC) upper echelon big whigs.
Sooner or later a hard rain’s gonna’ fall…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS3l_TwPNRY
IMO selective quotation that distorts the original speaker’s/writer’s intention is a pretty reliable indication of bad faith.
Pingback: ERLC Attorney Harassing SBC Sex Abuse Victims
Using people.
Using women.
MO.
So many of these ERLCers are members of Russell Moore protege Jedidiah Coppenger’s ‘Redemption City Church’.
Troubling stuff:
https://janespeaksup.com/2019/07/17/response-of-local-church-leaders-to-a-child-sexual-abuse-cover-up-within-the-community-cover-up-in-williamson-county-part-2/
“Over the past year, various Southern Baptist Church(SBC) groups have asked for those impacted by abuse to reach out.”
“Letter to Phillip Bethancourt…
I am writing to share my prior letters to SBC groups regarding my experience with church abuse…
Another reason that I am interested in writing is that there was a financial misconduct incident in one of the churches I was a member, and your current pastor was involved with the handling of that misconduct…The Senior Pastor and offending pastor entered into a two-way confidentiality agreement…Your pastor Jed Coppenger and another ordained lay leader Micah Carter (now pastoring a church) were involved as well…We continued to be unsettled about the activities by leadership — including the funding and launch of the Redemption City Church plant that Jed Coppenger pastors. We ended up leaving…”
“I am specifically troubled by the use of confidentiality agreements in the handling of misconduct in church settings…When the two pastors entered in this agreement with the support of the other church leaders…they obligated themselves to protect the offending pastor.”
“After we left this church, we went to another nearby church… there was horrific cover-up of child sexual abuse…There were some striking similarities in the handling of the misconduct at both churches”
“I started getting messages from…someone who is close friends with one of the leaders involved in the handling of financial misconduct. She expressed a desire that pastors would sue me, tried to out our names on social media, and said that people would line up and testify against us if our son’s case went to court.”
“When misconduct is handled in a way that is protective of offenders…The result of this response to alleged criminal misconduct leads church members to minimize the seriousness of criminal misconduct… it looks like the care and protection of even the most vulnerable has been made subordinate to financial stewardship.”
More here:
https://janespeaksup.com/2018/06/22/handling-financial-misconduct-internally-in-an-sbc-church/
Jerome,
Keep bringing this stuff to the light of day!! Especially these types of direct, or indirect threats… The Church is not the “mafia” with the “Godfather/paster” and elders being the “made men”.
Max,
There is always a faithful remnant.
But I am beyond irritated with the SBC as an entity. I am holding back on my feeeings in this post, actually. (Reason, I suffer Generalized Anxiety Disorder and today my biochemistry is messed up. I feel drunk, and I haven’t had a drop. Medicine and biochemistry is a tricky thing. So I don’t trust myself at the moment.)
The SBC is a hollow shell of itself. I was blessed to go to churches that had faithful ministers who took their calling seriously. But I would never, Ever, recommend an SBC church today. It’s all about protecting itself. Yes, there is a lot of faithful remnant, but the chance of getting hurt finding it is too high.
God help us. God forgive us.
Well that’s just great … so they put him in charge of SBC’s home mission agency with oversight of thousands of young church planters, many unproven in ministry and fresh out of seminary … flesh-babies, accidents waiting to happen. Of course, he had the right credentials to be hired for that senior position … he was formerly Al Mohler’s pastor!
That was my experience as well, during a 70-year membership in SBC. There was a day when you could safely point a seeker or new convert to just any SBC church, knowing that they would be taught the Word (not theology) and discipled in the faith (not used and abused). I haven’t felt comfortable referring folks to area SBC churches in a long time, even before the New Calvinists took over the denomination. Sad.
Any change that a go fund me can be set up to help Christa sue them to remove her name from their materials? Any lawyers know if that is possible?
Lois,
“Why- just why can’t churches do what is right, on their own the first time around? Of all places, they should be the ones doing what is right and setting an example for others to follow.”
+++++++++++++++++
stupidity
naive simple-mindedness
…and fear of losing money and power, thus the need to protect both.
which, in the final analysis, is the object of the exercise.
(but this is old news)
brad/futuristguy,
“but how can you claim to be evangelical and missionary-minded when the network as a whole maintains a horrific reputation on sexual abuse, but when, for instance, a third of all women in the world are victims of sexual abuse/violence?”
+++++++++++++++++
“well, unless there were 2 or 3 witnesses, it never happened. now where should we go out for brunch?”–SBC biblical junkies
Jerome,
goodness, all of that is very troubling.
how surreptitious things were financially & with the circumstances on how Redemption City Church got its start as a ‘church plant’.
it really is beyond me why professional christians have such difficulty with honesty and transparency.
i thought that was the whole point. (an equal part of a multi-sided raison d’etre).
well, it’s no mystery, really — it will cost them too much.
.
.
this also stood out:
in the link at the bottom of your comment, ‘Jane’ talks of how she went to the Franklin Police Department multiple times.
She filed a police report re: financial misconduct amongst pastors, and had discussions. They were unresponsive. She continued to pursue the issue; the Franklin Police Dept. had no record of her report.
.
from the comments section:
“There’s intense political pressure for police and prosecutors not to get involved in misconduct within churches. Churches play dirty if you back them into a corner and someone who runs for political office doesn’t want to be branded as the person who has a vendetta against God.
How would a person ever know if their own church is being disreputable and burying misconduct? You’d have to get lucky and catch a glimpse behind the curtain. I definitely seen my share of abusive pastors.”
.
.
it’s just amazing to me, the degree to which the christian institution resembles organized crime.
Wasn’t one of Lucy’s 5 cent services offered to Charlie Brown and the Peanuts gang “operationalizing their values” in a “grassroots” way?
“If the SBC/ERLC/EC really wanted to care for victims, they would have hired a licensed trauma informed counselor to reach out to the victims.”
Caring might not be top priority for an org:
– hiring a legal professional on their behalf
– then reaching out in a context where (likely already traumatized) victims are quizzed on a call (which can be recorded) by a lawyer and a witness
– asking questions and saying things where the victim may be led to believe she’s getting a sympathetic ear and potentially help when there’s not a thing stopping the attorney and witness from running org risk assessments and acting accordingly
– then leading a victim to believe they have no case, should move on, or that they’ll be looking into it and in fact do little to nothing
I have complete trust in the ERLC.
https://twitter.com/ThouArtTheMan/status/1218811255235936256?s=20
The handler ERLC dispatched to these women — her husband is Gov. Bill Lee’s Director of External Affairs.
ERLC bio of JOSEPH Williams:
“Joseph Williams, a native Tennessean, is an attorney and founding partner of The Peacefield Group, a legal and policy consulting firm in Nashville…He and his wife, Palmer…teach Sunday School at Redemption City Church, where he serves as an elder.”
https://erlc.com/resource-library/author-index/joseph-williams
https://www.linkedin.com/in/j-joseph-williams
“Director of External Affairs, Office of Governor Bill Lee
State of Tennessee
Jan 2019 – Present”
“Founding Partner
The Peacefield Group
Jun 2017 – Jan 2019”
“Our team provides legal and policy analysis that helps our clients craft messages and navigate the issues of the day to increase their influence and impact their communities in a chaotic policy landscape.”
Oh yeah, I really feel better about ERLC now, knowing that Matt Chandler is on the ERLC Leadership Council. Russell Moore must require a lot of leadership, since there are over 100 Southern Baptists on his leadership council! (mostly New Calvinist “lead pastors” of course)
On an unrelated topic (I think), I cannot tell you how excited I am that this ad is now showing up on my FB feed:
http://unbouncepages.com/trellis-training-waitlist/
For just a little over $1000 per year I can “experience radical growth with teachers like Tim Keller and DA Carson through active-learning, online sessions.” Looks like a great way to get personalized indoctrination into New-Calvinism and biblical counseling.
Ugh! Looks like I need to change my settings.
If you would allow me, I recommend that you not take that training – it will mess with your mind! There would be no New Calvinist movement without the Internet … there would be no way to challenge its proliferation without the Internet.
Oh, and “The bad outweighs the good, and who am I to judge?”
Ha! I meant “the good outweighs the bad.” Clearly writing from the truthful part of my brain. [eyeroll]
Re:
While I think one should not be hasty to pronounce reviling judgments, one ought to be wisely cautious to not uncritically believe what one is told by the leaders of institutions that plainly have significant “self-protection” concerns.
A saying of Jesus (or a commentary by the Gospel author) comes to mind that seems to be highly relevant to the question of transparency (Jn 3:20-21, NIV):
“Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.”
“For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?” (1 Corinthians 5:12)
The small bit about board members receiving “intentional investment” from the ERLC is interesting, too.
Max,
Shame on you! Pew peons are mot suppose to read and apply those verses…. only the ones that our dear, annoited leaders tell us read and understand..
One of the early key pillars of New-Calvinism was making their content free and plentiful on the internet as a way to capture market share. Perhaps they now feel like they are in a position to charge fees. I would think that signing up for this offering would be like posting a “kick me” sign on your own back.
How many of the Franklin Police Dept (or their superiors) are members of Redemption City Church?
(“TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!”, meet “Friends In High Places”.)
Is Pastor SuperApostle of Redemption City Church also their Department Chaplain?
(“Code of Blue” – Cop will NEVER side with NOT-Cop against Cop.)
Amazing how records not only cease to exist, but NEVER existed when either of these come into play, isn’t it?
(“One Hand Washes the Other…”)
Is “intentional investment” the latest Christianese for “payola (with long prayers for justification)”?
And make the Apostles of Calvin richer at a rate of $1000 per sucker per year.
Two Scorsese mob flicks come to mind, Goodfellas and Casino.
How many churchs, denominations, or ministries do you suppose there are right now where if Jesus were to walk into one of them today he would get excited and say, “Yes! This is exaclty what I was hoping for!”
Yes indeed, but I’d expand that to say that people should never uncritically believe anything told in church (or anywhere).
I’m sure you’ll agree. 😉
It’s becoming increasingly clear that there is a dearth of critical thinking skills in the American church. Charlatans and movements set up shop way too easily and abusive church leaders are given free rein for way too long, while gullible church members finance their shenanigans. When things just don’t seem right, few have courage to ask even basic questions or attempt to call leaders into account. Remember, it is wise to evaluate what you are seeing/hearing against Holy standards and to always think for yourself. Don’t be so open-minded about those who call themselves “pastor” that your brains fall out. Don’t roll over and spiritually die without a fight.
I definitely agree with you. I think back on the churches my parents & their parents grew up in. They were small and had sincere congregants who tended to each other. Would all of them understand how to navigate the criminal justice system when they’ve had no experience with it? No. But they did know right from wrong and I’ve seen far more shaming and shunning in my lifetime then they have.
–
Let me posit not a different theory to yours, but an additional one. The outrageous salaries that pastors can now rake in, when they add all kinds of secret pay add ones like 6-figure tax free parsonage allowances & massive retirement and fully vested annuity packages, absurd T&E where the flock are basically footing the bill for all of the pastors’ personal expenses, plus outside speaking fees, makes it FAR more important for head pastors to protect their BRAND & their giant comp package at ANY cost. That’s why we are seeing these coverups and churches immediately turning to sleazy lawyers.
–
The first order of business for the SBC should be to mandate complete open books where tithing members can review the entire pay packages of the top execs as a condition for SBC membership. The review of the books could be done in private to keep it out of the public’s eye. But this concealment of financial data and personal enrichment schemes from the very people funding it, seems to be at the core of almost all of these poorly handled sex scandals.
Amy Moore,
I, for one, will not be part of a church that does not have a yearly business meeting where the budget is open and discussed, including salaries. All of the churches I have attended are like this, and I can not comprehend being part of a church that did not do that!! It is our donations, not the “anointed ones”!
I don’t know whether it was out of courage, naivete, or stupidity, but I tried to exactly that. But I found myself out on a windy corner all alone. One of the elders started me down the church discipline path, but he did not know the facts and eventually had to back down. The end result is my efforts did not really make any difference, and now I have PTCD.
Sounds like real church.
ION: Sport
I’m a day behind here as Lesley and I were walking in the far eastern Highlands all day yesterday.
Fitba’
Following Liverpool’s win over manutd, with both Man City and Leicester dropping points this weekend, we’re now 16 points clear with a game in hand. We need to win 10 of our remaining 16 games to be certain of winning the title; that’s assuming we lose the other 6 games, and that second-placed City win all 15 of their remaining games.
It’s a mathematical curiosity that only now, with 64 points after 22 games, are we finally certain to finish above any one specific team. Bottom club Norwich have 15 games to play and are on 17 points. Were they to win all of their remaining games, they’d be on 62 points, so that even were we to lose every single game between now and the end of the season, Norwich could still not catch us. But second-from-bottom club Bournemouth, who have 20 points with 15 games left, theoretically could.
Quick bit of background for transatlantic Wartburgers: in league fitba’, a game can be drawn. A team gets three points for a win, one for a draw and none for a defeat. There are also knockout competitions in fitba’, in which – obviously – every match must produce a decisive result; in this case, if the scores are level after 90 minutes, 30 minutes of extra time are played; if the scores are still level, the match is decided on penalties. More on penalties in a later edition.
Cricket
England wrapped up a convincing victory in the Third Test this morning, by an innings and 51 runs, despite the South African tail fighting a fine rearguard action – and falling just a single run short of a century partnership for the 10th wicket.
IHTIH
The more I think about this, the more I think that just because a group calls itself a church doesn’t mean it is one. Anyone can call it’s group a church. Groups that are more about making leaders celebrities or obeying fallible people isn’t at all what is defined as the church in the NT. Most of these leaders want members to worship them and their group like an idol.
“The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the end?” (Jeremiah 5:31)
Nothing anyone can do to reverse the downward trend of true worship in America as long as the “people love it this way.” Celebrity pastors, mega-mania, and movements have darn near pushed Christ out; the Holy Spirit for sure has been grieved and quenched. The authority of Jesus in the “church” is waning; it’s not His “Church” at all in many corners of Christendom.
Yes, of course. And a measure of self-skepticism and humility is in order. “Test all things; keep what is good” calls for certain amount of on-going “self-testing” as well.
ishy,
Max,
For a number of years I’ve had the sense that in many churches the assertion “Jesus is Lord” is true more in a “de jure” than a “de facto” sense.
“A millstone makes a poor flotation device.”
— Coffee With Jesus
Lois,
“Why can’t churches just do what is right?”
The fact is they try. The hard truth of the matter is that sexual predators target the church. Some get seminary training, either because they think it will help them overcome their predilections (probably the most common intent) or because they specifically want to use the Church to find victims. Such a person becomes very good at hiding their perverse feelings so they can get through the hiring process and gain trust from the well-meaning church. The churches they work in are victims too. When a church tries to cover up an act of abuse like this, its leadership then absolutely shares in the guilt. But until then, the church is a victim too.
Yes, it’s high time for the people of God to seriously think about this! What does the Bible say “Church” is? It’s the Body of Christ, a House of Prayer, a family … where the name of Jesus is raised above all names and the Holy Spirit is welcome. It’s not a concert (aka SBC-YRR church plants), it’s not a coffee house or a bookstore, it’s not an activity center, it’s not a stage for celebrity preachers to strut their stuff, it’s not a place where 30 minute canned sermonettes are delivered, it’s not a bank to deposit ‘your’ money for church leaders to spend. Yep, when you think about it, very little that the American “church” does is really the “Church” … it’s a business.
Any nail that sticks up Gets Hammered Down, HARD.
(With or without Long Prayers and SCRIPTURE Verses for Justification.)
A completely TAX-FREE BUSINESS, Just Like Scientology.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Do not forget, many of these leaders like to play the “apostle” card, or the “do not touch thy anointed” card to justify their unaccountable behavior.
To a large extent, this is what the reformation was about….. we do not need the “priest” to be between us and G&d…. How many people died fighting for this during the reformation, and how many people suffered the emotional damage from standing up for what is clearly in the NT.
How quickly humans forget our past…. that is why we need to learn, and absorb, history..
As my writing partner (the burned-out country preacher) told me once:
“If you run across a preacher who has titled himself ‘Apostle’ or ‘Prophet’ — RUN!”
I wanted to say something earlier to this, but I got so mad about it I just walked away for awhile. But Doug should be getting out of prison this year. Justin Taylor got probation, violated his probation, and went to jail, got out in 2014. William Birch didn’t stay in jail very long and is a registered offender.
If the SBC was really “Caring Well”, they’d have a plan to investigate the character and mental health of their seminary students. But there is very little of that. If you are male and over 21, congratulations, you qualify to be a pastor, no questions asked! You can be a predator, a narcissist, abusive–all fine as long as you are male!
If you want a summary of all this, Wade wrote about it: https://www.wadeburleson.org/2012/03/three-sebts-students-guilty-of-serious.html
ishy,
The problem with what you are proposing is that “mental tests” are “secular humanist” based… which goes against the concept that the Bible is “sufficient” in these matters….
They actually use the autonomy argument a bit more, but I know a guy who just kept going around to small country churches to get ordained until one ordained him. He was a complete mess of a person, his own church refused to ordain him, and nobody else should have either. Some SBC churches have a strict process, and that’s good, but many of the small ones think every male should be a pastor.
I’m pretty sure some know now they let too many terrible people be pastors and it’s coming back to bite them. They’re losing celebrity pastors left and right, and a good number of them are in jail or multiple lawsuits.
But there’s a lot you can do outside of a mental health evaluation. You do have to write a very short statement paper, and a certificate from your church that you attend that SBC church for the discount, but that’s it. Some Christian colleges have harder admissions processes. A background check. College references. Employer references. An entrance interview.
Yes, many affix the name of Jesus to their endeavors to give the illusion of credibility … “but their hearts are far from me” says Jesus.
Yep, some of SBC’s seminary students/graduates during the Driscoll days were characters indeed! Unfortunately, the SBC released them into communities across America inexperienced and unproven via its church-planting program … without “caring well” for the people impacted by their shenanigans … many are now suffering PTCD.
At which point any distinction between BIBLE and Dianetics disappears.
Beware of the Psyclos…
To get the benefits of tax breaks while selling snake oil…
“Writing for a penny a word is stupid. If you want to make a million dollars, Start Your Own Religion!”
— L Ron Hubbard, founder of the Church of Scientology
“I don’t pay an attorney to tell me whether what I’m doing is legal.
I PAY AN ATTORNEY TO TELL ME HOW TO GET AWAY WITH WHAT I WANT TO DO!”
— either J.P.Morgan or J.D.Rockefeller, 19th Century Captains of Industry
Samuel Conner,
“For a number of years I’ve had the sense that in many churches the assertion “Jesus is Lord” is true more in a “de jure” than a “de facto” sense.”
++++++++++++++++++++
well, it’s not ‘du jour’, so i had too look it up.
de jure: practices that are legally recognised, regardless whether the practice exists in reality.
ha – yes, i’ve thought the same for many years of this silly religion of mine.
Christa Brown needs to be taking the SBC and their minions ERLC, the theological “schools” et al to court. If they misused her writings to imply the Ms Brown was a member, or approved of the SBC’s practice with regard to abusive or rapist pastors and managers in the SBC, they are liable for damages for lying about her viewpoint, at least. I am not a lawyer, but I’ve been around this kind of thing for a long, long time.
You can’t extract snippets of text from someone’s, Ms Brown in this case, writings to support things that Ms Brown does not support, things she doesn’t believe. It sounds like to me that Ms Brown is not a supporter of the Southern Baptist Conference (or whatever they call themselves today) and using extracts from her writing to imply that she is — well, it isn’t as immoral as rape or brutality, but it is bad in that same, exploitative way.
Not surprising at all … modus operandi for the New Calvinists who are taking over the SBC by stealth and deception.