“In the last 20 years the galaxy NGC 5468, visible in this image, has hosted a number of observed supernovae of both the aforementioned types: SN 1999cp, SN 2002cr, SN2002ed, SN2005P and SN2018dfg. Despite being just over 130 million light-years away, the orientation of the galaxy with respect to us makes it easier to spot these new “stars” as they appear; we see NGC 5468 face on, meaning we can see the galaxy’s loose, open spiral pattern in beautiful detail in images such as this one from the NASA/ESA Hubble Space Telescope.”
“Even the smallest person can change the course of the future.” JRR Tolkien
I am a Lord of the Rings fan. So it should not be a surprise that I’ve named my computer “Precious.” It is next to impossible for me to do a post on my iPad so thank you for being patient. I will try to catch up with a couple of extra posts and will be contacting folks who are interested in starting a blog.
Most of you will remember that Wes Feltner situation. Here is a link to a post Update 11/10/19: Wes Feltner, Longtime SBC Pastor and Former SBTS Adjunct Professor, Accused of Sexually Abusing Two Women 17 Years Ago
Feltner eventually decided to step down from his pastorate. However, there have been rumors that he might seek another pastorate and joining the conga line of fallen pastors who’ve returned to bring their incalculable talents back to the churches which have been bereft of their presence. I have heard that a number of people in his former church were seeking to have him reinstated.
Amy Smith called my attention to the following tweet. Did you know that the #churchtoo movement has been wrongly “targeting faith leaders all over the US?” Having been a rather involved member of this movement, my eyebrows shot up!
The history of #Church Too.”
Before looking at the petition, let’s look at the history of #churchtoo. According to Religion News in Ending the year #MeToo went to church, Wheaton summit to discuss evangelical response:
The summit comes just over a year after artists Emily Joy, who does not use her last name professionally, and Hannah Paasch first appended the hashtag #ChurchToo to their tweets, giving survivors of sexual violence, abuse and harassment within the church a place to share their stories. They had been inspired by the #MeToo movement started by activist Tarana Burke, which brought to light accusations against a number of powerful men, particularly in media and entertainment.
Since then, several high-profile leaders in the evangelical world have been accused of sexual misconduct.
Andy Savage, a teaching pastor at Highpoint Church in Memphis, resigned in March after Jules Woodson accused him of sexually abusing her when she was a teenager and he was a youth pastor in Texas. Her story was one of the first to bring national attention to the #ChurchToo movement.
As the article points out, the Andy Savage and Willow Creek situations became major news and were also posted on TWW. In fact, the article includes pictures of Jules Woodson and Nancy Beach who stories were shared on TWW.
Maggie Alexander makes a serious mistake in assuming that there is some sort of hierarchical control or centralized power in the #churchtoo movement and that the originators of the term are somehow *running the show” and telling the rest of us what to do. I am grateful Emily Joy and Hannah were ahead of the game, pointing to a problem in the church. Since that time a score of abuse advocates and survivors have latched onto the term and are recognized as being integral members of this movement.
There is not central command and, as such, there are no requirements for political affiliation, church affiliation, current religious beliefs, or doctrinal standards. Those of us who are in this movement (and I consider myself one of those) represent a broad swath of thinking. Our one point of contact is that we know there has been abuse by clergy and religious leaders. Which church? All churches…
Therefore, we are made up of conservative and liberals and everything in between. Although I stay away from politics, I happen to know that there are Republicans, Democrats, Independents, etc. I have yet to meet a Communist. We are a mix of churches: conservative Lutheran, Episcopal, SBC, Presbyterian, etc. as well as those who have walked away from the church and now consider themselves *Done, *None,* etc. Some have proposed *Empty the Church* as one response to abuse in the church. Others, like myself, are committed to our faith traditions,
There is one thing we hold in common. There should not be abuse in the church and we are impatient that abuse continues and is accepted by church members as a simple mistake. I implore those in Berean Baptist Church to stand with those who believe that such actions on the part of a person committed to the ministry are disqualifiers for continuing in the pastorate.
The bizarre petition to bring back Wes Feltner
Here is a link to to the petition which is titled: BRING BACK Pastor Wes Feltner to Berean Baptist & STOP “ChurchToo” saboteurs! (The exclamation point was provided in the title.)
The following are quotes from this silly rant. Sadly over 100 people have signed this, calling into question the ease by which they are led. I guess Wes Feltner had an easy go of it.
Since this petition is public, I’m printing the entire screed for your benefit…
(Dee) We are replacing Scripture with progressive liberalism.
CHRISTIANS: I went to Berean Baptist church, in Burnsville, Minnesota, on December 12, 2019 for a “townhall” meeting to hear the reasons that the Berean Church “Elders” are allowing two women from out-of-state in the progressive “ChurchToo” movement, whose stated goal is to EMPTY THE PEWS and replace scripture with progressive liberalism, to destroy our church and drive out our Senior Pastor, Wes Felter, with fake sex abuse charges from 19 years ago.
The stated goal of the movement is to destroy the evangelical church by accusing male pastors of abuse.
The “ChurchToo” movement was started in 2018 by a lesbian yoga instructor, named Emily Joy, with bipolar disorder, and HER STATED GOAL is to destroy the Evangelical church by accusing male Pastors of abuse. Two women from Indiana, who accused Pastor Wes Feltner of abuse from 2001, are PART OF THAT MOVEMENT and its followers in Minnesota are Democrat Elizabeth Warren political activists. This is UNCONTESTED. “ChurchToo” is phase 2 of Gloria Allred’s “MeToo” movement – designed to destroy all conservative men & families in America. In other words, the same people who tried to take down President Trump & Judge Kavanaugh with phony abuse charges are trying to take down Pastor Wes.
Wes Feltner is unfairly accused of being a pedophile.
This takedown has nothing to do with “abuse” – Pastor Feltner was dating two 18-year-old ADULT women when he was 22 years old, with their parents’ permission! He later went on to marry another woman and have three children. Now he is being smeared as a pedophile & a predator, and was forced to resign because his wife and three children are receiving death threats, while the Elders take months to conduct an “investigation.”
Wes Feltner was targets as being too biblical and too transphobic.
The real reason the “ChurchToo” movement is going after Pastor Feltner is because Berean Baptist is one of the fastest growing EVANGELICAL churches in the nation thanks to Pastor Feltner! In 2018, it was named one of the top 10 growing churches in America! One of the activists, who is a member of Berean’s congregation, TOLD ME that Pastor Wes is TOO transphobic, too traditional and too biblical and they ARE OUT TO DESTROY him and one of the finest churches in Minnesota.
The #churchtoo movement is taking a stand against Donald Trump.( Dee: Everything these days is about Donald Trump.)
President Trump announced last month that he and his team are working hard to register 25 million Evangelical Christians to vote for the 2020 election. The “ChurchToo” movement is motivated to fracture Evangelical support of Donald Trump before the election, particularly in states like Minnesota, and has exhorted its followers to take a stand against President Trump. Don’t believe me? Here’s their mantra:
It continues on and on in this vein.
“If you have doubts about your church’s overt or subtle white supremacy, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and general toxicity, now is the time to leave and to do so publicly, in protest. You don’t have to stop being a Christian if you’re not able to embrace atheism, agnosticism, or some other form of none-dom. You don’t have to stop going to church (there are great progressive churches out there!). Are you going to sit there in silent complicity? Please don’t. Take a moral stand, and make yourself heard. #EmptyThePews”
One of the so-called accusers against Pastor Feltner, Meg Frey, is aligned with the progressive “ChurchToo” movement and started a non-profit website called “BroughtToTheLight.org” to tell her sob story. She is on Twitter coordinating with dozens of other liberal activists to destroy Evangelical churches, and their Pastors, across the nation. Together, they are making lists of churches and pastors to target for take down and cheering each other on to make that happen. They LAUGHED when Pastor Wes resigned and blocked me for exposing their evil schemes.
These are NOT just confused kids, victims & good people who want to PROTECT the church for non-political reasons. Not on your life. These saboteurs are progressives, Satanists & atheists who are out to destroy ALL Evangelical churches in swing states before 2020 through their phony “ChurchToo” movement. Their movement uses the tagline: EMPTY THE PEWS.
STILL NOT CONVINCED? I signed up for the “ChurchToo” newsletter from its founder, Emily Joy. Here’s how she described herself in her opening email:
“I bring all my identities to this space: my identities as a gay woman, a divorced woman, as an ex-evangelical, as a survivor, as a person living with bipolar disorder, as a friend and a partner, as someone who considers herself Christianity-adjacent but isn’t quite sure where she fits, and more.”
This is the kind of woman that the Elders at my church are ALLOWING TO INVADE AND POISON our sanctuary. Why? Have they gone mad?
As I said earlier, I went to the “townhall” meeting at Berean Baptist in Burnsville on December 12 to find out why.
Only 2 out of 12 elders were on stage and there was no Q & A as they promised — it was a scripted performance. They called it a “townhall” but there was NO interaction. They called it a family meeting but they were the only ones allowed to speak. There were no recordings or questions allowed.
The Elder who spoke for the others, Craig Eiter, said he loved Pastor Wes and wanted to help him and his family “heal.” He began by saying Berean Baptist is a church where it is OK to NOT be OK and that he himself is a sinner. I guess that doesn’t apply to Pastor Wes! It’s NOT OK for him to be NOT OK!
Eiter admitted that HE was on the committee who hired Pastor Wes Feltner in 2013 and has been an Elder at Berean for 13 years — yet he said none of the Elders had ANY idea of these charges back then and did not find them when they did due diligence on Pastor Wes. According to the Star Tribune, that’s not true.
The Star Tribune reported that the women allegedly told the Elders of this back then and they did nothing. Yet, Eiter kept saying they had no idea and it’s not their fault. Right. Sounds to me like the Elders are trying to cover their butts and throw Pastor Wes under the bus to be politically correct and appease the “ChurchToo” progressive activists and a small posse of feminists within Berean who want Wes’ head.
When asked why we can’t just forgive Pastor Wes and ask him back, Eiter said that Pastors, according to scripture, must be “above reproach” and that’s why they are conducting an investigation of him dating two 18 year old women when he was 22 – with their parents’ permission – 19 years ago! Well, if that’s true, scripture also says that “Elders” or “overseers” must be “above reproach!”
1 Timothy 3: “If any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. An overseer, then, must be above reproach.”
If the Elders’ due diligence was so sloppy in 2013 that they didn’t uncover charges that they now say are so serious that they call for an investigation and removal of Pastor Wes because he’s some kind of predator – then I say the Elders must be removed also. The Elders are the shepherds of the church and they must ALSO be “above reproach!” Goose and gander!
The Elder kept telling the audience that there are now 3600 congregants at Berean that must be protected and shepherded. He forgot to mention that is DOUBLE what it was when Pastor Wes arrived. In other words, Jesus brought Pastor Wes to Berean 6 years ago and he DOUBLED the church size after 50 years of slow growth. That’s a miracle!
In my view, the 3600 congregants deserve a vote to decide whether Pastor Wes can stay or go — the Elders have failed us! The people I talked to in the congregation want to forgive Pastor Wes and welcome him back. The Elders are standing in the way and helping Satan to destroy our church!
BTW, not only is the “ChurchToo” movement infiltrating our churches but so are “fake” Trump supporters. A woman named Laura Laird with the Facebook handle @RomanianMomma calls herself a Libertarian Christian “Woman For Trump” but is pushing the “ChurchToo” progressive movement as well. She is talking out of both sides of her mouth. Why? Here’s an excerpt of what she wrote on Facebook:
“In my opinion, THE most egregious of all sex offenders are in the Christian church, evangelical and Catholic alike. The enemy is on the move. Predators are all alike. They groom, deceive, lie, take advantage. How are we to be an example to the world if we, the Body of Christ, doubt and question the victim and believe and blindly follow the abuser just because they happen to be “leaders.” We need MORE people like my friends VONDA AND SCOTT DYER [of the ChurchToo movement!]”
Does she sound like a Christian conservative to you? Not on your life.
I also just found out that another woman, Natalie Hoffman, who is tied to the ChurchToo movement, went after Pastor Wes in May 2018 for a sermon she didn’t like on divorce and is working to take down other Evangelical churches in Minnesota. She is working with the two accusers and has a team of activists. This is a cabal. The Elders were also aware of this and did nothing.
Due to trolls like Laura & Natalie, Berean removed their Facebook page after it was inundated with malicious comments from “ChurchToo” activists and they have removed staff & Elders’ names from their website so we can’t contact them directly. This limits the ability of the congregation to talk to each other and share the truth! This is what EVIL has done to our church!
There is a very real war in America. A spiritual battle between good and the evil forces trying to destroy our nation, our church, our children and our faith family.
“Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.”
“Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.”
The latest sabotage against Billy Graham & conservative Christians from the progressive editor of the fake news magazine “Christianity Today” should be enough proof of the very REAL ATTACKS going on against our Evangelical faith leaders.
STOP LETTING SATAN WIN! BRING PASTOR WES FELTNER BACK TO BEREAN.
To do your own research, here are some links: https://www.facebook.com/peggy.tierdrop/posts/2475977442646411
I look forward to your insights. As of this posting, 134 souls have signed this petition.
1 BAM
Silver?
Numero uno
HereIStand,
Or not… I’ll take the bronze.
About the only thing the author left out was a protest against vaccination and immigrants.It’s obvious that much of her information is incorrect, but lumping her concerns in with everything else many conservative churchgoers fear, she is able to lure signers in. So many people have lost the ability to think for themselves, and I keep hoping that Christians will love God’s Word and pastoral standards more than they love the offending pastor.
I do think Satan is laughing it up, using all of this to confuse, divide and deceive many. He instigates he evil abuse, then laughs when it comes out into the open, hoping to bring disgrace upon all who call themselves by the name of Christ.
I pity those who are innocent bystanders, who are not perpetrators o defenders of abuse, but naively believe it impossible by their own trusted religious leaders.
Might their be a ‘cabal’ of angry churchtooers who want to take down the church? Seems farfetched, but if there is, they are serving the same enemy that the abusers they denounce worship. The abuse is real, and it needs to be called out. Whatever institutions, careers or man-made organizations that might harm, personally, I don’t care. The true Body of Christ will remain, faithful, whatever happens to any so-called church or pastor in the world.
I don’t know about this.
I might have been convinced if she had used more CAPITAL LETTERS in her arguments.
Sounds like another schismatic parishioner will be causing headaches to the leadership at Berean-good luck elders. So, I guess this women believes it’s Ok for a youth minister to have sexual liaisons with 2 teens ( his flock) while dating his future wife. Most people would not condone this behavior from any man let alone a minister. I also realize many young men might try to get away with something like this, but a minister of the Lord. It is an abuse of power. You just cannot have a youth minister sleeping with those he ministers. It is spiritually abusive and an abuse that will never be forgotten by the abused-many just walk away from the faith. Jesus had extremely harsh words to say concerning this type of abuse-this is the severest form of rebuke. And I shudder at His Words. If you have been disqualified, you can repent and be forgiven, and get a wonderful day job utilizing your magnificent talents and probably get a better paycheck too. The writer must not realize that men have suffered abuse as well and they wish to see the church reformed and see spiritual abusers step down from their lofty perches. He has shown you, preacher man, what is good, just and what He requires of you. Just Do The Right Thing. I lived near Burnsville and we progressives are not out to get you. When the weather is bad I blame Trump and curse him for his damn effect on global warming.
Where’s the petition to sign to get the predators out of the pulpits, and furthermore, out of the churches?
Where’s the opportunity to vote to have a public database of pulpit predators, as Pastor Wade Burleson has proposed for MANY years? [Houston Chronicle’s Rob Downen et al assembled a database as a beginning, because it is public information if the DOJ is involved.]
Going to church (and specifically the youth group) should not be going to a predator’s hunting ground.
“Maggie Alexander makes a serious mistake in assuming that there is some sort of hierarchical control or centralized power in the #churchtoo movement and that the originators of the term are somehow *running the show” and telling the rest of us what to do.” – This is quite preposterous and comical. I’ve been writing about sexual abuse and the United Pentecostal Church. (32 installments in the series so far and http://blogs.spiritualabuse.org/2019/12/20/united-pentecostal-pastor-ronald-terry-litz-child-sexual-assault/ is the latest.) No one dictates to me what I write or include on my website. And for how large and widespread the ever-growing movement is, there is no way that anyone could “run the show.”
Are we sure this petition isn’t satire? I mean, it reads a bit too much like the song “Ya Got Trouble” from “Music Man” where con-man Harold Hill warns the good townspeople of River City- using the most serious language- of the dangers of the new pool table. Yes, a pool table. Great musical by the way. Seems to me if we set the above petition to rollicking music it wouldn’t sound much different.
Do these following lyrics sound at all to you like the petition above?
Now, I know all you folks are the right kind of parents
I’m gonna be perfectly frank
Would ya like to know what kinda conversation goes
On while they’re loafin’ around that Hall?
They be tryin’ out Bevo, tryin’ out cubebs
Tryin’ out Tailor Mades like cigarette fiends!
And braggin’ all about
How they’re gonna cover up a tell-tale breath with Sen-Sen
One fine night, they leave the pool hall
Headin’ for the dance at the Arm’ry!
Libertine men and Scarlet women!
And Rag-time, shameless music
That’ll grab your son, your daughter
With the arms of a jungle animal instinct!
Mass-staria!
Friends, the idle brain is the devil’s playground!
Trouble!
“The real reason the “ChurchToo” movement is going after Pastor Feltner is because Berean Baptist is one of the fastest growing EVANGELICAL churches in the nation thanks to Pastor Feltner! In 2018, it was named one of the top 10 growing churches in America!”
And we all know that since the church has gotten so BIG this man must be sent by God, approved by God and is therefore needed by God to stay right here and keep us BIG.
Happy 2020 to all! And what a way to start the year…
I lost count of all the logical fallacies in that screed. Is Feltner really that precious to this woman? Or is she so terrified of finding progressives in church (and under her bed, and in her intestinal tract) that she simply must see a “cabal” against faithful Christians throughout the U.S., and convince herself that Feltner is one of their poor, poor victims?
Here’s hoping that most believers at that church have their critical thinking skills on. Those that do should have no trouble seeing this paranoid, nonsensical rant for what it is.
Not only that, Alexander seems to give all the credit to Feltner.
“In other words, Jesus brought Pastor Wes to Berean 6 years ago and he DOUBLED the church size after 50 years of slow growth. That’s a miracle!”
Not a word about the work of other ministers or volunteers at the church, or the ordinary church-going members. And Jesus gets only a passing mention.
Can we say, “cult of personality”?
Fisher,
If indeed the business has grown thanks to “Pastor” whoever, that’s good reason for a follower of Jesus not to go near it.
The “Restore Wes Feltner” Petition
Only idolaters turn abusers into heroes and victims into villains. Neither of which should occur in an institution called by the name of Christ. The Christian Industrial Complex tries everything it can do to keep its celebrities on stage.
Supposedly this is the mantra of the #churchtoo movement:
“If you have doubts about your church’s overt or subtle white supremacy, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and general toxicity, now is the time to leave and to do so publicly, in protest. You don’t have to stop being a Christian if you’re not able to embrace atheism, agnosticism, or some other form of none-dom. You don’t have to stop going to church (there are great progressive churches out there!). Are you going to sit there in silent complicity? Please don’t. Take a moral stand, and make yourself heard. #EmptyThePews”
Well, we don’t need to worry about them, then. They will be all too busy memorizing this way-too-wordy mantra, let alone endlessly repeating it and meditating on it, to get anything else done. Plus they are too ill-informed to know what an actual mantra is. The movement will never get off the ground.
[my first sarcastic comment of 2020]
Nick Bulbeck,
Just like Mark “potty mouth” Driscoll…. It is all about Jesus! mantra…. then the “tough guy” runs away and HIS church which was “all about” Jesus imploded….
I couldn’t read that with starting to see a Fox News headline ticker with overlays of Robert Jeffress, Sean Hannity, Alex Jones, Franklin Graham and so on in my head.
I really hope more people put on their critical thinking caps before signing anything like this or even discussing it with people. This is a sad state of affairs when we have hero worshipping screeds of dubious source popping up.
Well. This is A LOT.
However:
This is a legitimate gripe, if true. But it’s also part of the problem in general, which is that what is at best sleazeball behavior by Wes (lying about dating multiple women at once), that iirc he got fired for, was not taken into account by future employers.
IF nothing else, can churches just start taking these things seriously when choosing who to hire??? Sheesh. If he had been cut out of the ministry after his first issue we wouldn’t be having this problem.
Yes. And it’s insidious because the way she frames it, ANY allegation against someone on the ‘right’ side is a frame up. A sham. Or a lie. That’s just not the case. The VAST majority of allegations are true. Her hero Wes got fired for his when it was found out and investigated and found credible.
Yes, this is the underlying reason so many folks support wayward ministers and ministries. The average churchgoer doesn’t possess critical thinking skills, let alone spiritual discernment … they are easily deceived.
That made me laugh.
Loren Haas,
YOUR COMMENT MADE ME LAUGH (CAPS INTENTIONAL)
Great comment. You all are on a roll.
Well said.
Lois,
So, you are not controlled by a secret cabal?
I loved your comment. What a great comparison.
Well said!
Woah! Go easy on that new keyboard…
Agreed
Rebecca,
I madde my first sarcastic comment of 2020 in the blog. I think this is going to be routine for the next year.
Still stuck at 134.
ROFL!!
For better and for worse, he’s become a Focal Point.
Remember Souls(TM – NOT people) are the currency of Heaven, and a CEO who can give that Return on Investment (dividend$ or capital gain$) Can Do No Wrong. Divine Right of Stockholders and all that.
And THE DEVIL is Persecuting such a Mighty Work Of GAWD (and Mighty Man of GAWD)!
Lather, rinse, repeat, lather, rinse, repeat, lather, rinse, repeat…
In an Age of Extremes like today, it is impossible to tell. Or even DO satire.
Because as crazy and over-the-top as you get for satire, there will be True Believers out there twice as crazy, twice as over-the-top on the exact same subject, and DEAD SERIOUS.
FAKE NEWS.
Lie from the Pit of Hell Itself.
The Vast Conspiracy, headed by SATAN Himself!
“Blessed are Ye Who are Persecuted…”
“The Dwarfs are for The Dwarfs! We Won’t Be Taken In!”
And BOLDFACE.
And EXCLAMATION POINTS<!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(Doesn’t that remind you of a Gospel Tract?
Like what appears under the wipers of my car once or twice a month?
All that’s missing is the Invitation to The Sinner’s Prayer(TM) at the end…)
“If your Conspiracy Theory doesn’t fit the facts, Invent a Bigger Conspiracy.”
— Kooks Magazine
This could be the next step after the blog post.
Surely you are jesting here Vance. The cult of global warming is alive and well.
And also based on lies.
There just isn’t anything in the tone or content of this petition that sounds like the writer was lead by the Holy Spirit. It sounds like the ramblings of someone with a personality disorder. It is hard to believe the signers actually read it. I suspect they did not. That was too painful to read all the way through. Much easier to sign it and be done.
I mean, Feltner has been gone, what, a week? Certainly that’s enough for a man of his prodigious talents. If a day of the Lord is like a thousand years, then isn’t 7,000 years long enough for him to do penance or do all of you just hate puppies???
“Daughter of Stan”…I’m sorry, that’s too funny for words!
Headless Unicorn Guy,
If you look at this lady’s Facebook page, everything bad happening in the world today is due to progressives and liberals, and Trump is the only Person Who Can Save Us.
Burwell Stark,
My minnie doxie says no.
Fisher,
I’m so jealous, can’t resist posting this from “West Side Story.”
Gee, Officer Krupke, we’re very upset;
We never had the love that every child oughta get
We ain’t no delinquents
We’re misunderstood
Deep down inside us there is good!
Comment from the petition site:
“As far as I can see he has not did anything wrong. And..if you have to look back 20 years and this is all you find, you are not looking for truth, you are looking for something to further your agenda.”
So if someone had done something wrong to this person or a family member and someone asked this person for character reference for the one who committed the wrong, length of time would evidently be the primary criterion for saying oopsie/ oh well, no?
DON’T GIVE THEM IDEAS!
I’ve got no strings to tie me down… LOL 😉
Is it just me, or was there nowhere in the petition write-up to “BRING BACK” Feltner where it was required of him to acknowledge his actions and repent in a Biblical way? Speaking of being Scriptural, this particular section is telling:
(After quoting an NASB snippet of the first verse and a half of 1 Timothy 3)
“If the Elders’ due diligence was so sloppy in 2013 that they didn’t uncover charges that they now say are so serious that they call for an investigation and removal of Pastor Wes because he’s some kind of predator – then I say the Elders must be removed also. The Elders are the shepherds of the church and they must ALSO be “above reproach!” Goose and gander!”
So with the petitioner’s quotation of Scripture (here and elsewhere) and specifically what was cited about the need to be above reproach, there’s still a big question mark as to what is being affirmed since the petition is to bring this guy back. Of course, the take on his conduct is something else: “This takedown has nothing to do with “abuse” – Pastor Feltner was dating two 18-year-old ADULT women when he was 22 years old, with their parents’ permission!”
Don’t forget one of the pastors similarly deemed the matter to have happened in “dating context”:
https://www.courierpress.com/story/news/2019/11/05/first-baptist-clarksville-pastor-abuse-wes-feltner-berean-baptist-claims/4158696002/
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/11/07/wes-feltner-longtime-sbc-pastor-and-former-sbts-adjunct-professor-accused-of-sexually-abusing-two-women-17-years-ago/
So reportedly, one was interning for Feltner (and ex-boyfriend was being counseled by him), and one as being counseled by him, and that’s conflated with a “dating context”. The notion broached in the petition that Feltner has been too Biblical and traditional is understandably contrasted with the relationships with his intern and his counselee, reportedly in secret and overlapping proximity and non-permitted levels of intimacy — again, all done while he held a reported compensated position of church authority as an adult, which makes this entire matter relevant to scrutiny as he applies for jobs presumably with more authority, responsibility, and compensation.
And because of apparent proactive silence beforehand by Feltner and apparent enablers in power with church rep priorities, no one including the church question had all of this info readily available, as it came out now rather than before. His actions are the heart of the issue here, not the strawman arguments about outside forces. After his transgressions, could David have expected business as usual because he was Biblical and traditional and stood up against the ungodly seeking his destruction (Philistines, etc.) and thus not received rebuke via Nathan? David didn’t appeal to reputation or credentials; he expressed heartfelt regret, confessed, and repented. He also bore the consequences of his actions, which were severe and not wholly removed at his say-so after a self-determined period of reflection.
Actually, it reminds me of a tweet.
Wholeheartedly agree!
So ridiculous it doesn’t seem like it could be real…
Far better to sign my petition, found at http://chng.it/mBqcmvfYh4
I had a friend in high school named Stan. Great guy, but I don’t believe he has any daughters. Also, he did not appear to have any relationship with Satin, but he often wore Flannel.
I wonder how many pastors in the past sat on information about one of the male congregates physically/sexually abusing their children at home?
If Wes Feltner saw no problems with what he did, did he sit on information, help not getting where it needed to go?
I’m going to be honest, that petition made my eyes glaze over.
I’d say it’s a Poe but there are people out there who think like that, so not so sure about that.
What has Emily Joy to do with this?
I concur. I thought it might be a “trust” kinda thing.
The sad thing about this, the thing that makes my heart feel like there’s a boulder weighting it down, is that I know people who think exactly like this. They have no discernment whatsoever, they see everything that happens through a crazy paranoid political lens, and you can’t talk to them about anything, not even the gentlest question about their “facts”. They are too brittle to even hear anything that doesn’t support their wild conspiracy theories. Honestly, it’s getting me down.
I guess they’d be the ones yelling “give us Barrabas!”
One person’s many, many comments are not approved.Do not change names in order to get comments approved. Your comments are too long and make little sense.
Believer,
Di you know ho that came about?
SiteSeer,
Yup.
Many of us are very concerned about this. We see it in many areas, not just “religion” . As you point out, this is not “new”, and has happened throughout history. We all just need to keep plugging away, raising our warnings….
“Give us Driscoll!” … “Give us Savage!” … “Give us Tullian!” … “Give us Hybels!” … “Give us Noble!” … “Give us MacDonald!” … etc., etc. … at the expense of Jesus.
Ugghh…this whole thing is completely ridiculous and I hope it dies a quick death. Sadly, Wes Feltner will probably find another church or START another church, simply b/c guys like this have the charisma & manipulative charm to fooll people like the ones who signed this petition. They think they ‘know’ him and his heart. Oh what silliness! He’s a snake charmer.
There’s a segment of the American church which look for leaders who have an unrepentant past, who act just like them, who have lived in gross sin and got away with it … it makes them feel better about themselves.
When there are no watchmen on the wall, the enemy easily enters the city.
dee,
Slight tangent here, perhaps, but I’m working through an online JavaScript course and one of the mini-projects involves (long story short) a big long list of names. I’ve added in a Douglas-Adams-themed easter egg to mine, which reads through the whole list and replaces each name with a random, but english-pronounceable, name in the style of The Hitchhiker’s Guide To The Galaxy. I think it’s quite clever, actually. There is a small chance that the code will accidentally generate an expletive, but it’s only happened once so far.
I’m fairly sure I know which commenter you mean here, and it has occurred to me (and perhaps to others too) that someone else may have been working on a similar idea.
This was published today on Ligonier:
https://www.ligonier.org/blog/5-ways-to-pray-for-your-pastor/
Of course, it was a pastor who wrote this humble article.
Is it too much to ask pastors to keep their zippers up and their hands to themselves? Do they really need prayer for this? Apparently giftedness covers a multitude of sins.
If such “pastors” are listening in, they need to keep their pants on and remember Paul’s words “Woe unto me if I preach not the Gospel!” You can’t preach the Gospel if your mind is in the gutter … Jesus still shouts to you “Repent or else!”
She’s not ‘one of us’ to this person. That’s it.
AKA “EVERYBODY’S DOING IT! SEE? SEE? SEE?”
With liveried Armorbearers blowing long trumpets before him to announce how HUMBLE he is.
Ever heard of “TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!”
Because a Conspiracy True Belief is impossible to shake.
Any evidence against the existence of The Conspiracy is Fake News planted by The Conspiracy.
Lack of evidence for The Conspiracy PROVES The Conspiracy is so Vast they can silence anything/everything.
Anyone who doubts the existence of The Conspiracy has shown themselves to be part of The Conspiracy.
“THE DWARFS ARE FOR THE DWARFS! WE WON’T BE TAKEN IN!”
ION: Sport
Part 1 of 2: Cricket
England won the toss, batted, have collapsed, blah, blah blah, blah blah. Currently 172-4 with three of the top four falling in the thirties. (That could still become four of the top five at the time of writing, as Ben Stokes is on 37. *) Each of the four wickets has gone to a different bowler; a slightly intriguing statistic, as there’s usually someone with a couple of wickets at this stage. Only Dwaine Pretorius is wicketless, but his 7 overs have gone for only 6 runs – very tight bowling indeed, and the scoreboard pressure that creates is certain to have assisted the other bowlers.
Part 2 of 2: Fitba’
So, although the Third Round Proper of the FA Cup is coming up this weekend, the festive league program is finally complete and it’s not been a bad one for Liverpool. At the start of December five weeks ago, we had an impossibly heavy program of 10 fixtures in that period, with the final one being a home cup tie against Everton on Sunday. The congestion was so bad that our League Cup quarter-final against Aston Villa was less than 24 hours before our FIFA Club World Cup semi-final in Qatar – clearly, we couldn’t play both of those fixtures.
Liverpool began that spell 8 points clear at the top of the Premier League, and in the quarters of the League Cup as stated, with the FIFA Club World Cup to play and needing a win in Salzburg to progress to the knock-out phase of the Champions’ League (or, as the late Jimmy Greaves famously called it, the Give Us Yer Money Cup). So, the general expectation was that Liverpool could reach the new year as world club champions, in the Champions’ League last 16 and the League Cup semis, and still 8 points clear at the top: OR, we could be out of the Champions’ League and the League Cup, return empty-handed from a gruelling trip to Qatar and have lost an 8-point lead.
Well, in the end we resolved the fixture clash by sending our under-23 team to Villa Park; credit due to Villa there, who duly won 5-0, so we’re out of the League Cup. But we got the win in Salzburg and enter the last 16 of the Champions’ League as group winners; we returned from Qatar as Club World Champions (becoming the first English side to hold the European Cup, the European Super Cup and the FIFA Club World Cup simultaneously) – and, following some inconsistent results from Man City and Leicester (and a 4-0 away win over the latter) we’re now 13 points clear at the top with a game in hand. Our league form, therefore, is record-equalling at this stage of the season, with 58 points from 60. Interestingly, any team in the Premier League could still theoretically finish above us. Bottom club Norwich are on 14 points with 17 games still to play; if they were to win all 17, they’d finish on 65 points, and if simultaneously we were to lose all (or nearly all) of ours, they’d finish ahead of us.
January is a tough month in the league, as we’re away at both Spurs and Wolves and host a possibly-resurgent Man Utd (thought they’ve been woeful in their last couple of games) before we visit West Ham to play the fixture that was postponed during the Club World Cup; after this point, we won’t have the game in hand.
IHTIH.
* Stop press – Stokes went for 47 and England are now 208-5.
Nick Bulbeck,
Speaking of long and hard-to-read comments…
Ken F (aka Tweed),
What a humble, patient article, reminding us to pray for the most holy/people with “most gifts and graces”. /s
Holy cow.
Psalm 50:9 rang in my head – “I will accept no bull from your house…” 😉
To piggyback on your comment – Is it too much to ask that those to whom much has been given, much will be expected?
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Her Facebook page reads like her petition, and she posts multiple times a week, so I don’t think the petition is a Poe. She just seems to have a lot of time to write all her wordy posts.
Linn,
What is a Poet?
Brian,
Poe
Brian,
Wikipedia to the rescue!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law
A Poe is a close parody of an extreme view. Because it’s so close to the extreme view, people often don’t recognize it as parody. Mayhem ensues.
(TWW commenters avoid being Poes by using the 😉 or /s or “eyeroll” … and by being totally and completely sincere at all times. /s)
sincere = without wax
There is a related law, but I don’t know the name: “whatever can be misunderstood will be misunderstood.”
Bah. Eyeroll? Eyewash, more like. There’s more sincerity in a burnt-out candle factory than in this nest of vipers.
You’re all rubbish.
Up yours,
Roger Bombast
Especially when your paycheck and/or self-image depends on misunderstanding it.
When you have No Life, you have a lot of time to stroke your Obsession.
(Saw the exact same dynamic in Furry Fandom, where it also leads to some really dark and crazy lifepaths.)
dee,
I’ve spent the last couple of days trying to figure out how radical you are. You’re about as radical as the Lennon Sisters singing the “Wahtusi” on the Lawrence Welk Show: 😉
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiEGVGHDYug
LeftBehindLinen,
re: “Only a few people where there….”
One of the saddest moments was when he became nothing to remember by giving his mother a new son.
Problem?
Mary Remembers….
LeftBehindLinen,
…
re: “Only a few people where there….”
One of the saddest moments was when he became nothing to remember by giving his mother a new son.
Problem?
Mary Remembers….
Friend,
Oh, dear! Thanks for the trip down memory lane. I grew up on Welkley and I’m laughing so hard my cat thinks I’ve lost my mind!
Huh. TIL. I didn’t know about the whole “Poe” thing, but I picked it up the meaning in context. (I R learned good, an thawt I wuz interwebs edjooumacated.)
HUG, I’ve seen that at DragonCon (went for almost 22 years straight), and it can be amazing, scary, and both at the same time. (Not a shot at Con goers, I’ve been one and it’s an absolute hoot, but it definitely attracts some…ah…dedicated fans.) On a side note, I genuinely expect about 10 times the number of Mandalorians at DC this year all quoting “This is the Way” at each other.
dee,
“Daughter of Stan”? No, not really, although I’m sure I could guess. Now, I also see downthread that you have a relationship with Satin. I did too, but that’s a different story……
There is a family at Berean Baptist that we know who were refugees from previous churches we were all heavily involved in. I was rather surprised that after decades in charismatic churches they ended up there, but they expressed their appreciation for the “good, solid Bible teaching” they were receiving and I thought oh it must be what they were looking for as a kind of remedy for the toxic and dysfunctional church life we had all experienced. And now this whole thing with Feltner surfaces.
We ran into them last summer at a wedding for a mutual friend and together with some other couples we knew from churches in the past, everyone was updating each other on the wonderful churches they were now attending. Inevitably the question came to us, and I had to blurt out, somewhat sheepishly, “well to tell you the truth, we’re DONE with church, we’re what they call the DONES.”
This was very shocking of course.
When we left Churchianity around about 2010, for a time we really didn’t have anything to do on a Sunday morning so were hanging around at a church some friends were trying to convince us to join, but somehow we just weren’t feeling it anymore and stopped attending. Less than two years later this couple took us out for coffee, only to tell us that the pastor had been removed after multiple “affairs” with married women surfaced.
Most of these people we knew from a church we had left way back in 2002. They stayed there until about 10 years later there was a major church blowout/split over that pastor’s leadership.The wives of two of these couples yelled at me after they left, “why didn’t you tell us about Pastor So-and-so when you left!?” (back in 2002). But we didn’t really have any dirt on Pastor So-and-so except that he was a pathological liar, and we just felt it was time to move on. I thought, should I also tell you now, that the youth pastor you are so enamored with and are following out of that church to start a new church seems to be an authoritarian bully based on my few contacts with him? Out of the frying pan and into the fire?
I guess I don’t need to be sheepish when I tell people we are DONE.
Some of us have take on fabric monikers to identify with Dee and Deb as Daughters of Satin (I also did it because all the Kens on this site were getting confused). I have to add that I wonder why Nick never took on a fabric alter (or altar?) ego. I could be that he is not a man of the cloth?
Hey Dee,
I just got off my encrypted phone after a lengthy conversation with Gloria Allred. She said to let you know that Operation “Stop Snakes” will be implemented on January 8th, Elvis’ birthday. You are instructed to play Elvis’ hit “Suspicious Minds” backwards for a coded message. After you have received the message please distribute it to all in your cell. Good luck, Comrade.
Todd Wilhelm,
Meet me by the helm. The one made of jade. 😉
Why do they keep saying, “…with their parents’ permission” over and over again, like that somehow makes it all ok?? A parent would certainly never approve of a pastor abusing his/her daughter, no matter what age.
Sadly, too many church parents are just as starry-eyed as their child when a “man of God” expresses an interest in their daughter. Wouldn’t a pastor be the catch of a lifetime, a spiritual asset for the whole family?! Surely they could trust a pastor with their precious child. A pastor would be the safest person their daughter could date. And then slick-willy works his dastardly deed, breaks their heart, and pursues another naive target. How many wives “in the ministry” are living a life of hell with authoritarian and abusive husbands because their parents gave them permission to date the devil?
I’ve faced different challenges to that of multi-Ken concealment; at the time of writing I’m still the only openly Nick person on Wartburg.
I can’t comment on whether or not I’ve ever been tempted to develop an alter-ego. But a man of the cloth I’m not – God’s certainly never called me, and it is unlikely He ever will.
I’ve never really felt the need to, as I already know where he is. (He’s not the best at hiding, to be frank.)
Best regards,
God
Todd Wilhelm,
You may be interested to know that… the tulips in my garden are blooming early this year. But it’ll get worse before it gets better. Because a bird in the hand’s better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.
If you get my meaning.
Ken F (aka Tweed),
Thanks Ken. I don’t know exactly why that struck me so funny. The “relationship with Satin” and “daughter of Stan” thing is just fall-over-funny to me. Maybe it has to do with the idea that wading through this blog is so heart-wrenching and maddening…when I stumbled into those monikers…so clearly meant to convey hatred and disgust but with so little attention to accuracy…well, it just seemed like a metaphor. And funny as hell….
Nick Bulbeck,
I’ve re-read that, and it may not be all that obvious what I was trying to do there. Never mind.
Meanwhile, in the cricket, South Africa were 215-8 at stumps on Day 2. Most of the runs came from two batsmen – opener Dean Elgar (88) and Rassie van der Dussen, batting at 5 (68). Indeed, the extras outscored five of the South African batsmen. Anderson (3-34) is the pick of the bowlers thus far, and Ben Stokes took four catches at slip. Tomorrow looks set to see the final two wickets hammer the England bowlers all around the part for back-to-back century stands with an innings defeat for England still the likeliest outcome.
Todd Wilhelm,
Weird scenes inside the gold mine…
dee,
That sounds like abuse, Dee.
It sounds like what some people say to G-d! Basically, “You don’t make sense to me, so your not welcome!”
Tell me again how you love the Church and how you care for the victims of abuse —
Does this make sense, theologically speaking, Dee?
Sincerely!
AProblemLikeMaria,
You are sea lioning. Check the rules the rest of us follow.
AProblemLikeMaria,
ROFL!
Wartburgers will not be fooled by this, AProblemLikeVonTrappDoesntWantHisChildrenToSingButInevitablyFallsInLoveWithMavericMariaAndTurnsOutToHaveOneOfThoseCroonyVoicesWhoWouldHaveThoughtIt.
We all know you’re really here to hear about cricket. Well, you’re in luck.
Counter-intuitively, England established a first-innings lead; Jimmy got another five-fer and Ben Stokes took five catches at slip – believe it or not, this is a record for an England fielder. As an aside, note that in this context, the wicket-keeper is not considered a fielder per se – though obviously (s)he is part of the fielding side *. Whether the bowler is or is not a fielder is a bit more complicated. Once the ball has been released, then the bowler is a fielder like any other and, once the batsman has played the ball, the bowler may stop it, catch it in flight (resulting in the batsman’s being given out caught and bowled) or use it to run out either of the batsmen as the opportunity presents itself.
Back in Cape Town, Jack Crawley has just gone for 25, with England now on 43-1 (a lead of 89). Sibley is on 14 and Denly on 4; interestingly, there are no extras yet after 15 overs and there were only 7 in the entire South African innings.
The match remains intriguingly poised, albeit with an England collapse and 7-wicket defeat still the most likely outcome.
* For new or irregular Wartburgers: the fielding side in cricket is the team trying to get the batting side out. The batting side is said to be in, but this does not mean the fielding side is out. You cannot be out until you’ve been in and got out. Likewise, you cannot be not out until you’ve been in. If the fielding side are fielding in the second or fourth innings, then they will have been in and out and could in that case be said to be out. Otherwise it would be more accurate to describe them as yet to bat.
Wartburgers should not be confused by the terms “infield” and “outfield”; this means something different. The infield is the part of the field in a rough circle/ellipse around the wicket – a term which, as they will be aware, also has several meanings dependent on context.
So, early doors on Day 4 in Cape Town. Ben Stokes has been hammering boundaries and, despite only beginning his innings today (nightwatchman Dom Bess having fallen to the last ball of the day last night) is on 40, off 28 balls – though he was just dropped on 38. Dom Sibley, at the other end, is scoring slower than my teenage self at a nightclub. He’s now officially in the Nervous Nineties, and Wartburgers may expect them to be particularly nervous; he’s taken 256 deliveries to get here. In the time it’s taken to write this comment, Stokes has moved to 45 from 30…
Early-rising transatlantic Wartburgers will be distressed to know that my first cricketing news of the day was snaffled by the filters at short square leg. Own stupid fault there, I think.
Quick summary:
Dom Sibley inching his way through the nervous nineties; on 94 from 258
Ben Stokes yarding his way through every decade he can find; on 46 from 31
There have been quips about Stokes reaching his century before Sibley does.
Nick Bulbeck,
To give this even more perspective, Stokes and Sibley have just reached the 50 partnership milestone, all of them since the start of play this morning. Sibley scored 5 of them.
I’ll keep this brief: Sibley got his ton, finishing unbeaten on 133 when England declared on 391-8, setting South Africa 438 to win.
South Africa are 18-0 after 5, heading for a 10-wicket victory.
South Africa 46-0 at tea; steadily progressing towards the predicted 10-wicket victory.
South Africa one down; now only steadily progressing towards a 9-wicket victory.
Is there any other kind?
Which these days is becoming Salvation-Level Dogma.
“Insanity is part of these times! You must learn to EMBRACE THE MADNESS!”
— Centauri Ambassador Londo Mollari, Babylon-5
300 years ago, they would have been starry-eyed over the King taking their daughter as a Royal Mistress.