The Founders Release “By What Standards? God’s World…God’s Rules* or Was That Founders Rules?

Jupiter’s South Pole as seen by NASA Juno spacecraft

“We interrupt this program to annoy you and make things generally more irritating.” Monty Python


 

This is going to be a short post about a long awaited video by the Founders. Here is a link to our experience with them this summer at the SBC2019 in Birmingham: The Floundering Founders: Even Compadres Are Not Amused

It is my opinion that The Founders are bound and determined to implement their agenda which, if allowed, will cause a serious split in the SBC. I have heard. that Tom Ascol, the President of the Founders, planned to run for the SBC President. It is my opinion that if he is successful, abuse in the SBC would be put on the back burner, and an emphasis would be placed in rolling back the role of women as wells as downplaying any issues surrounding race. Maybe this is why Al Mohler jumped in.

When I attended the For Such a Time As This Rally at the convention, I witnessed the Founders playing a game with the participants. I wrote: Observations of SBC#19 and a Condemnation of The Founders Who Disrespected Victims of Sex Abuse at the Rally.

Today, they finally released their film By What Standard? God’s World…God’s Rules

Dwight McKissic is called sinful by Tom Ascol for recognizing women who have preached on the mission field.

They have not released the embed code so you will need to click on the link. It is a long video.  At about the 15 minute mark, you will hear Pastor Dwight McKissic who discussed the hiroty of women who have preached on the mission field. Tom Ascol responds by calling him *sinful.* McKissic is a much beloved, learned African American preacher and has been supportive of the For Such a Time As This Rally. His speech at the rally was wonderful!

We have a nice weekend ahead and plenty of time to see what trouble is brewing for the SBC as the Founders march to a different drummer.

Link to By What Standard? God’s World…God’s Rules

And a call to arms…

Whoops, almost forgot,. this is only a beginning. They have more planned for your watching enjoyment…something that they say is a call to arms.

WHAT’S NEXT?
The sons of Isachar lived in tumultuous times. They knew two things. They understood the times and they knew what Israel ought to do. We’re convinced that a coming generation of pastors and Christians need to know the times, and they need to know how to “do the word.” In a phrase, they need to wield the sword.

Founders Ministries is now working on an upcoming film called Wield The Sword: Pastoral Courage In Perilous Times. It is a call to arms. By God’s grace we hope to encourage and equip pastors and Christians to take up the sword of the Spirit and wield it with courage.

Comments

The Founders Release “By What Standards? God’s World…God’s Rules* or Was That Founders Rules? — 140 Comments

  1. Here’s a comment from that article that sought to add some further background of their line of thinking

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/07/26/the-floundering-founders-even-compadres-are-not-amused/

    The strawmen floated in the Founders article appear to work toward the end of creating the brave neo “us” and the unbiblical “them:

    https://founders.org/2019/06/19/which-is-the-most-pressing-issue-in-the-sbc-today-sexual-abuse-or-the-bibles-teaching-about-manhood/?fbclid=IwAR0BEXoR3aKdxNqFeQ7q0YZO84GmpgyJmhJW6OtIgkJUGqkzdc1dmzGmezE

    (Notice in the above title the simultaneous conflation and either/or strawman of sexual abuse vs. ‘Biblical manhood’. Yep, really.)

    “First, true biblical manhood is part of the solution to sexual abuse.”

    So, guess we can’t focus on abuse itself — the towering inferno that the powers that be too often treat with less vigor than a T4G breakout session workshop. Let’s somehow via some convoluted logic act like ‘biblical manhood’ is just as pressing an issue and one that can be attached like a leech to take attention and focus from the abuse issue!

    Are you kidding me with this tangential flail? What does a grievous wolf from Acts 20 or the thief from John 10 care about Biblical anything except to either disobey it or manipulate it deceptively to their own ends? And where does a discussion of that issue become remotely relevant when the problem of the rampant abuse is compounded by the blind eyes, proof-texting hackery, and the passing of the buck endemic in so many abuse situations coming to light?

    “Second, Feminism has been trying to leverage the sexual abuse of women to advance its unbiblical agenda.”

    And many in the secular media and those opposed to Christianity have also leveraged what’s been coming out to bolster assertions or promote an agenda. Newsflash: people push their own agendas. However, if we were in a sane courtroom, an objection due to irrelevance would be sustained.

    Guess what, “Founders”? If professed Christians and their institutions are inextricably linked to the abuses by the manifest fails listed above, that’s going to serve the agenda of those opposed to Christianity because of the evil and the hypocrisy. As long as we’re getting Biblical, how about this verse: “As it has been written: “For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you”” (Romans 2:24).

    How about allowing appropriate focus on the issue that is laying waste to innocent lives of victims and those close to them? If that’s not enough, shouldn’t the motive of cleaning up the impurities of a denomination your own writings indicate you’re seeking to seal the deal on acquiring — assets and all — be enough? Think of the brand!

    Biblically manning up by definition involves looking out for the little ones and the oppressed. I know it’s not as straightforward as talking amongst yourselves about doling out top-down authority or as neat as conducting gotchas on those at abuse rallies kicked to the SBC curb — apparently ‘cuz narrative, but it sure is Biblical.

  2. Tom Ascol (Founders President) collapsed in church on Sunday.

    Last I read he regained consciousness, but not mobility.

    There is a short piece at Christian Post.

  3. From that same Founders article:

    “This is why in our current cultural environment, we need to address both sexual abuse as well as biblical manhood and womanhood at the same time, though it is highly counter-cultural to do so. The two issues are inextricably linked.”

    Notice the “lump these two things together — inextricably ‘cuz culture, and admire us for being counter-cultural” spotlight wresting.

    Let’s use some of the incidents that have been highlighted on this blog to see if the issues as reported are as inextricably linked in a meaningful enough way to merit this conflation.

    Andy Savage — adult who physically dwarfs a teen drives her out to an abandoned location and makes his move. Begs her to keep silent. Moves from place to place in paid church leadership for years without let or hindrance; gives relationship advice and writes book on same. When news breaks, standing ovations and “you are worthy” occur rather than timely appropriate action from church leaderships (sic) involved.

    Bill Hybels — involves those under the pastoral purview with procuring videos and or watching them with him for so-called research; ambien handsiness, other things invoking power dynamics and what appears to be grooming behavior.

    Tom Chantry — convicted child molester, yet the number of people who came to his defense and persisted was stunning, and the efforts to secure the convictions were daunting.

    Nathan Morales (and who knows how many others) — convicted child molesters at a church that reportedly not only failed to act appropriately but advised reconciliation between a 15-year old and a girl he abused when she was three, citing an evidently twisted take on 1 Cor. 6.

    The SBC’s Judge Paul Pressler — multiple lawsuits filed and reported financial settlements regarding abuse of young males. Called the worst kept secret, yet dodged accountability long enough to be on stained glass.

    ‘Uncle Raggy’ Ragsdale — Methodist youth pastor on tape acknowledging abuse of 10-year old, later claiming in interview that the 10-year old that he dwarfed in size and age was actually the perp.

    Tom Randall and indigenous mission personnel — charges of abuse at an orphanage as well as inappropriate touching of young female by Tom. Questionable reaction and investigation by church leaders (sic)

    Larry Nassar — throwing him in here too to see how Biblical manhood would have factored into a better outcome in this secular setting

    So…

    WHAT DOES ‘BIBLICAL MANHOOD’ HAVE TO DO WITH ANY OF THIS?!?!?

    We have case after case after case of inappropriate action that traumatized victims. We have abusers using the power structure, wretchedly inappropriate proof-texting, and the passage of time to shield themselves from consequences. We have case after case where the chain of authority — often a cul-de-sac of coverup rather than involving the proper authorities — failed the victims and was often complicit in extending the problem and further traumatizing the victims and trusting them like the ones in the wrong.

    We have clear answers to start addressing this: oversight, accountability, and involving the appropriate civil authorities right off the bat. Biblical manhood is about as relevant as fighting tooth decay as it factors into what needs addressing. That it is being pitched otherwise is disturbingly inappropriate — which in itself shows why so many responses from real and imagined powers that be in professed Christian circles are part of the problem that needs massive amounts of attention and action. Enough with amateur hour on this critical issue.

  4. Evangelicals have a seemingly endless affinity for military metaphors. Sometimes, I don’t think they can tell the difference.

  5. JDV: We have clear answers to start addressing this: oversight, accountability, and involving the appropriate civil authorities right off the bat.

    Cue HUG saying “Touch not mine anointed!”

    JDV: Biblical manhood is about as relevant as fighting tooth decay as it factors into what needs addressing. That it is being pitched otherwise is disturbingly inappropriate — which in itself shows why so many responses from real and imagined powers that be in professed Christian circles are part of the problem that needs massive amounts of attention and action. Enough with amateur hour on this critical issue.

    In all seriousness, though… YES.

  6. You need to go over to the Recovering Grace website. In the comments, they are discussing Bill Gothard’s new “Embassy University”, which will offer a 2 yr degree, a Bachelors, Masters and even a PhD degree! The core of the University: learning while you sleep. Can’t make this stuff up!

  7. As Susan B. Anthony so famously said, “I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”

    These guys are so caught up in their theology, they don’t even know they are constructing another gospel. A gospel not of Jesus Christ but of human beings and their actions. Salvation by works. Salvation through man and his actions. Play the correct role to magically bring about the kingdom of heaven. But it’s tricky, no one can figure out how to play this role without a medium standing between God and men to let them know every detail of what they are supposed to be doing.

    I think I remember something about, “It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.” This way of life they promote has nothing to do with freedom and everything to do with a yoke of slavery.

    I sometimes wonder how many of these odd doctrines that come down the pike are the result of human beings getting upset because God isn’t doing what they expect he ought to be doing, so they try to come up with some reason, some thing that we’re all doing wrong, that is keeping him at bay. Maybe they need to learn to accept that this world is what it is and that the rewards come in the next life, and that the hardships of this present world afford us an opportunity to show love and kindness. Which is what we are supposed to be known by, as Christians. They should quit wringing their hands that everyone is doing it wrong and just get out there and love people.

  8. Jean: You need to go over to the Recovering Grace website. In the comments, they are discussing Bill Gothard’s new “Embassy University”, which will offer a 2 yr degree, a Bachelors, Masters and even a PhD degree! The core of the University: learning while you sleep. Can’t make this stuff up!

    He must have watched that old Disney move, “The Monkey’s Uncle.”

    These disgraced Christian leaders just won’t go away. They have no sense of shame.

  9. SiteSeer: sometimes wonder how many of these odd doctrines that come down the pike are the result of human beings getting upset because God isn’t doing what they expect he ought to be doing,

    I’ve always suspected it’s about people being uncomfortable with lack of control. God isn’t in control to the extent they’d like him to be. Because hey guys, he gave us FREE WILL meaning people are free to do stuff that God doesn’t control! So guys like the founders make rules and then attack verbally those who don’t agree. Meanwhile, the Father is busy sending out invites to his great banquet hoping people everywhere will get the message and decide to come. Imagine that! He wants us to just show up, and he’ll even provide the wedding clothes.

  10. JDV: …the Founders article…”Which Is the Most Pressing Issue in the SBC Today? Sexual Abuse or the Bible’s Teaching about Manhood”

    …So, guess we can’t focus on abuse itself…Let’s somehow via some convoluted logic act like ‘biblical manhood’ is just as pressing an issue and one that can be attached like a leech to take attention and focus from the abuse issue!

    Tom Ascol also has put out, that a far more serious problem than sexual abuse is “lax shepherding”, churches not excommunicating people for non-attendance.

    https://founders.org/2019/02/13/southern-baptists-sexual-abuse-and-a-far-more-serious-problem/

    “real Christians attend church regularly…If you are in a church that has 600 members but only averages 200-300 in attendance…you are in an unhealthy church. Such a church denies…the very inerrant Word of God…The inerrant Word of God says (even in red letters!) that if a brother sins…If he refuses to repent even when the whole church calls him to it, then he is to be removed from the membership of the church (Matthew 18:5-18).”

    “[These] teachings of Scripture…when neglected, provide a breeding ground for church members to be abused in many ways.”

  11. “Only believe, don’t fear. Our Master, Jesus, always watches over us, and no matter what the persecution, Jesus will surely overcome it.” (Lottie Moon, Southern Baptist preacher/evangelist)

    I suspect Sister Moon probably included the persecution of female believers by men like Tom Ascol when she said this.

    Ascol’s brand of toxic Calvinism once defended slavery (SBC Founders included slave-holding pastors and deacons). They believed sovereign God was on their side in the Civil War until Confederate victories turned to defeat. Following the War, Southern Baptists distanced themselves from the theology of their Founders and remained distinctly non-Calvinist in belief and practice for 150 years until SBC’s “Old” Calvinists (led by Ascol) and “New” Calvinists (led by Mohler) began to drag the denomination back to its theological roots. Look for more manipulation, intimidation, and domination from their ranks in the coming years … that’s just who they are.

  12. I think it has become evident that when you don’t make an effort to read the ENTIRE Bible, you end up with your own twisted version of the Word and God.

    So much of what I read if these “men” and their theology is refuted in other parts of the Bible.

    I’m not saying having a lectionary is required, because so many good Christians read just fine without one, but it sure helps keep you from returning again and again to limited portions of the Bible, to the the point of forgetting other parts.

  13. I couldn’t care less about the Founders or what they say, but I am thrilled at the release of the documentary. Anything that causes strife between the Founders and Pope Albert I of Louisville et al can’t help but to be good for the SBC pew-sitters.

  14. Magistos: I think it has become evident that when you don’t make an effort to read the ENTIRE Bible, you end up with your own twisted version of the Word and God.

    So much of what I read of these “men” and their theology is refuted in other parts of the Bible.

    Having folks follow you into aberrant faith depends on them not reading the entire Bible as well. We just don’t have a lot of Christians these days who study to show themselves approved, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Easy targets.

  15. Whether “The Founders” are misunderstood, evil, or just immature, I don’t really know, as I don’t know much about them. The label “Founders” suggests a certain level of immaturity at best – Founders of what, exactly? Also, their recent public behaviour in interviewing survivors of sexual abuse suggests again, at best, that they are young men whose religious zeal has not yet become seasoned with much maturity.

    The problem is that hot-headed and zealous young men (and women too, but these are men) are notoriously simple and gullible, and easy pickings for lies hiding under bold black-and-white ideas like “the inerrant word of god”.

  16. Ken P.: Anything that causes strife between the Founders and Pope Albert I of Louisville et al can’t help but to be good for the SBC pew-sitters.

    Pope Mohler was once mentored by the Founders. When he struck out his own with a new and improved version of Calvinism, the ole boys didn’t like it. It was predictable that they would eventually battle for the SBC throne. So sad to see a once-great evangelistic denomination end this way.

  17. As of today, those that wish to attend an SBC seminary, do they have to belong to a SBC affiliated church? I’m asking from the thought of what would keep a church from leaving the SBC.

  18. God made rules. They were listed in the Old Testament. And the purpose of the rules was to show that people can’t be right with God by rules.

    So I think “God’s Rules” as a title and theme is poor theology.

  19. BD,

    BD: Last I read he regained consciousness, but not mobility.
    There is a short piece at Christian Post.

    He is now home from the hospital according to several sources.

  20. Nick Bulbeck: Also, their recent public behaviour in interviewing survivors of sexual abuse suggests again, at best, that they are young men whose religious zeal has not yet become seasoned with much maturity.

    One of the filmmakers (Marcus Pittman) is probably in his mid-30s and attends a church in my neighborhood where the leadership teaches women who have abortions should be executed.* So yeah, he and his bunch are already on the bleeding edge of crazy.

    *And yes, I go out and picket them on Sunday afternoons. Basically, my whole point is to tell them they’re in a cult. And I have signs with Steven Hassan’s BITE Model on them that I tape to my car. I’ll be honest, at first I thought maybe the signs were a bit much, but they do get attention. A couple of weeks ago, a guy walked up to the “Behavioral” sign and said, “God wants us to do these things.” He objected to the “depriving of sleep” and “financial” points but was otherwise OK with the rest. I was all, “Dude, you’re proving my point.”

    Here’s the BITE Model: https://freedomofmind.com/bite-model/

  21. Brian: As of today, those that wish to attend an SBC seminary, do they have to belong to a SBC affiliated church? I’m asking from the thought of what would keep a church from leaving the SBC.

    SBC seminaries cab accept anyone they want (SWBTS accepted a Muslim once), but members of SBC churches get a significant break on tuition costs. That could keep a church in the SBC, but it is a benefit for the student and not the church.

  22. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    The TGC folks have people like Tim Challies who do not think women should be allowed to read Scripture aloud in church

    https://www.challies.com/articles/men-women-the-public-reading-of-scripture/

    He has not renounced this silliness. Read his stuff carefully. He even wants men to speak in a certain way which would prevent men with speech impediments from reading the Scripture out loud. he says one must read the Scripture on such a way that it comes across as teaching which women and men with speech impediments cannot do .

  23. Shannon H.: God made rules. They were listed in the Old Testament. And the purpose of the rules was to show that people can’t be right with God by rules.

    I just quoted this because I thought it bears repeating…

  24. dee: The TGC folks have people like Tim Challies who do not think women should be allowed to read Scripture aloud in church … prevent men with speech impediments from reading the Scripture out loud …

    Genuine or counterfeit? You will know the counterfeit by their lack of love for one another.

    Eons ago, we were members of a small rural SBC church. They had a tradition called the “Fifth Sunday Sing.” During months with 5 Sundays (this December is such a month), anyone could come before the church and offer a song to Lord. On one occasion, an elderly gentleman who had been crippled on his left side by a stroke walked down the aisle. The stroke had also left him with a “speech impediment”, but he raised a harmonica in his right hand to his mouth and proceeded to play the most beautiful rendition of Amazing Grace that I have ever heard. He had no impediments before the Lord; Challies, and men like him, do.

  25. Max, the only hope for the SBC is those small rural churches. The kind where the people came together and formed a church, THEN called a preacher. He usually was a local, had to keep his day job since he would only be paid a pittance for supplying the pulpit. (gas money) These “I am the boss” kind cannot do one single thing to people who walk away from them.

    I would personally rather be in a church of 10 like those old time rural churches than a church of 2000 with kick butt music, lights, fog machines, big name “pastor” who does not pastor (and I want a preacher not a pastor anyway), comfortable theater chairs and no Holy Spirit.

    Jesus is STILL Lord of the church. Any group meeting where He is not Lord, but some man is, is not a church.

  26. dee,

    My current church, for five to ten minutes each Sunday, will allow one person to get up in front of the congregation and give their testimony on how they came to Christ. A lot of times the person will read a verse or passage that influenced their coming to Christ. There have been those with speech impediments and mutations that have done this.

    To me, Challis’s idea is severely whittling down who can go out in the world and spread the gospel.

  27. Brian: To me, Challis’s idea is severely whittling down who can go out in the world and spread the gospel.

    If Challies had his way, we’d still be waiting for the proclamation of the Resurrection, since it came by the voice of a woman (Mary Magdalene).

  28. Blast from the past:

    Mark Dever and Al Mohler were Founders Conference regulars in the 1990s!

    https://web.archive.org/web/20071023081131/http://www.founders.org/conferences/sbfct2.html

    “Founders Conference Speakers

    “Mark Dever is the pastor of the Capitol Hill Baptist Church…he also previously served as Associate Pastor of Eden Baptist Church. He…is a member of the Founders Conference planning committee.”

    “R. Albert Mohler, Jr…president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary…Christianity Today recently described him as one of 40 emerging evangelical leaders.”

  29. dee: people like Tim Challies …

    … fail to energize and mobilize the ‘whole’ Body of Christ and, therefore, miss what God desires to do in their midst. Putting a lid on the Holy Spirit is not wise.

  30. Nov/Dec 1986 issue of ‘Reformation Today’ magazine, includes report written by Tom Ascol about the 1986 Founders Conference!

    https://reformation-today.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/RT_094.pdf
    (pp. 24-26)

    TOM ASCOL: “The 1986 Southern Baptist Conference on the Faith of the Founders convened at Rhodes College [PC-USA] in Memphis, Tennessee July 29th through August 1st…

    “The tone of the conference was set by the opening remarks made by Dr. TOM NETTLES…

    “FRED MALONE, Pastor of Heritage Baptist Church in Fort Worth, Texas examined the controversial subject of the man in Romans 7…Pastor Malone exhorted us to recognize that the spiritual health of our people depends upon a right apprehension of the lessons from this passage…

    “Pastor ERNEST REISINGER brought a message on ‘Reforming the Church’…

    Ascol included a photo of himself with young MARK DEVER and Ernie Reisinger.

    caption:

    “From left to right, Tom Ascol, Mark Dever of Louisville, Kentucky, who trained under
    Roger Nicole at Gordon Conwell and is writing a thesis on Richard Sibbes for a Ph.D. Many should recognise Ernie Reisinger who, because of the crucial role he plays, was nicknamed Rex Reisinger at the conference. We are all kings and priests but Ernie especially…

    [Ernie a.k.a. ‘Rex’ Reisinger?
    Oh brother.]

  31. I actually watched a large part of the vid linked to up-top.
    Such angst, such travail!
    It’s hard to fathom that a bunch of capital Greek letters all run together on old brittle parchments and papyri could drive men mad enough to want to go to war over them.

  32. I decided not to watch the film right now, but I did go to the end to see who put this thing together. Here is my transcription of the credits:

    A Chocolate Knox Film
    Directed by David Shannon

    Produced by
    Hannah Ascol
    Whitney Wolfe

    Executive Producers
    Thomas Ascol
    Jared Longshore

    (the following are in italics and scroll up)
    Dr. Tom Ascol
    Rod Martin
    Dr. Josh Buice
    Dr. Albert Mohler
    Dr. Thomas Nettles
    James Lindsay
    Dr. Thomas Nettles [no, not a mistake]
    Dr. Glenn Sunshine
    Dr. Voddie Baucham Jr.
    Dr. Robert Gagnon
    Summer White Jaeger

    CAMERA CREW
    Adrian Rink
    Marcus Pittman [he goes to that church near me which is NOT an SBC church]
    Hannah Ascol

    EDITOR
    Chocolate Knox [this is a pseudonym for David Shannon, see here: https://crosspolitic.com/members/chocolate-knox/ ]

    SPECIAL THANKS TO DONORS OVER $250
    Joshua Bullock
    Michael Whipple
    Adam Livingston
    Jedidiah Lawson
    Bill & Tricia Willcutts
    Mark & Susan Perlick
    Bob & Barb Buker
    Mark Coppenger
    Rod D. Martin
    Benjamin Hedrick
    Katie Casanova
    Jason Papador
    Mitchell Horan
    Ricky Cooper II
    Joel & Kelsi Ascol
    Elliot Cuduco
    Clifford Kisner
    Ken & MaryJo Mckinley [sic]
    Len George
    Joshua Guarango
    Landon Schrock
    Happy Pendley
    Daniel Byrum
    Dusty Deevers
    Jorge & Yoandra Alvarez
    Joel McAnear
    Josh Pendley
    Scott Hazen
    Elisha Riedlinger
    Eric Gervais
    Clint Casanova
    Curtis McClain
    Jeremiah Tindall
    Joshua Myers
    Eli Hawon
    Clint Crowell
    Matthew Hartline
    Farel & Jean Lindo
    Thomas Rush
    Dean Dahlgren
    Eric Naykalyk
    Eric & Charlotte Honcharenko
    Stovall Witte III
    Cornelius Sullivan
    Jay N. Smith
    J.C. Weyand
    Johnny & Kaylie Chavers
    Jason & Tiffany Goddard
    Ty and Elizabeth Spradley [as typed]
    Paul M. Taylor
    Travis Hooser
    Patrick Penecale
    Jesse Schellenberg
    Jeremey & Charla Tatom
    Neil Strongosky
    Dean Britton
    Justin Rya
    Joseph Gurba
    Jonna Schmidt
    Benjamin Mabry
    Greg Laughlin
    Robert Scott
    Russ & Marie Bennett
    Nicholas Rimmer

    The Real Tree Church
    Grace Church of Greeley, CO
    Meridian Church
    Ridgewood Church
    First Baptist Church The Colony

    Thank You to Sovereign Nations For
    “The Trojan Horse – Ep. 1: Deconstructing Communities |
    Peter Boghossian, James Lindsay” Footage

    SPECIAL THANKS
    Grace Baptist Church Elders and Members

    [animated Founders Ministries logo]

  33. “the credits:
    …..
    SPECIAL THANKS TO DONORS OVER $250
    …..
    Bill & Tricia Willcutts”

    Hey, that’s the name of 9Mark Dever’s brother-in-law & wife!

  34. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I decided not to watch the film right now …

    Me too. I don’t want to spoil the Christmas cheer around our house right now. These folks are so mean-spirited, I just don’t want to listen to their toxic spiel on how the wimmenfolk are taking over the church; it just doesn’t seem the festive thing to do over the holiday season. I suppose there are Founders-affiliated churches out there which will play the documentary instead of having a Christmas cantata this year. These folks are a strange lot – very passionate, but it is a misplaced passion.

  35. Nick Bulbeck:
    Whether “The Founders” are misunderstood, evil, or just immature, I don’t really know, as I don’t know much about them. The label “Founders” suggests a certain level ofimmaturity at best – Founders of what, exactly?

    The term comes from their view that many of the original founders of the SBC were Calvinists, and thus they want to “return” the SBC to its “heritage”.

    Never mind that Calvinism is rooted in Augustinian teachings, and anyone who knows church history knows that the Deep South had no use for Catholicism whatsoever. Your Primitive or Separate Baptists were largely based in the North.

  36. Jerome: Tom Ascol also has put out, that a far more serious problem than sexual abuse is “lax shepherding”, churches not excommunicating people for non-attendance.

    https://founders.org/2019/02/13/southern-baptists-sexual-abuse-and-a-far-more-serious-problem/

    “real Christians attend church regularly…If you are in a church that has 600 members but only averages 200-300 in attendance…you are in an unhealthy church. Such a church denies…the very inerrant Word of God…The inerrant Word of God says (even in red letters!) that if a brother sins…If he refuses to repent even when the whole church calls him to it, then he is to be removed from the membership of the church (Matthew 18:5-18).”

    I disagree that church non-attendance is worse than sexual abuse in it. I do agree, though, that barring illness/infirmity, old age, away at college, serving in the military, or on an extended job away from the area (with intent to return to the area, a person who is a member of a church should attend regularly and support it, and a church should remove someone who willingly and without excuse fails to do so, if the person does not voluntarily relinquish his/her membership. Five years ago, I voluntarily terminated my membership in a church that I hadn’t attended in years and had no intention of supporting again, it isn’t that hard to do.

  37. Brian:
    As of today, those that wish to attend an SBC seminary, do they have to belong to a SBC affiliated church? I’m asking from the thought of what would keep a church from leaving the SBC.

    I looked at the admission requirements for Southwestern Seminary; it says church attendance is required (and an applicant must provide three letters from three different church leaders) but says nothing about the church having to be SBC or even Baptist for that matter.

  38. Jean:
    You need to go over to the Recovering Grace website. In the comments, they are discussing Bill Gothard’s new “Embassy University”, which will offer a 2 yr degree, a Bachelors, Masters and even a PhD degree! The core of the University: learning while you sleep. Can’t make this stuff up!

    I thought Gothard was out of business? I knew he got kicked out of IBLP, so did he start a new outfit using an old mailing list?

  39. Mark R:…barring illness/infirmity, old age, away at college, serving in the military, or on an extended job away from the area (with intent to return to the area, a person who is a member of a church should attend regularly and support it, and a church should remove someone who willingly and without excuse fails to do so, if the person does not voluntarily relinquish his/her membership. Five years ago, I voluntarily terminated my membership…

    You voluntarily left, but you think others should be forced out? Please forgive a heartfelt disagreement.

    As a lifelong Christian recovering from both abuse and burnout, I alone decide whether, where, and how often I attend church. We have freedom of worship in the US. Ordained folks do not get to measure my performance. Under your rules, who will determine whether a reason is a good enough excuse to stay away?

    Your rules also cannot discern whether church membership remains precious to someone who attends rarely. People choose to remain on rolls for many reasons. Some return after an absence due to overwork. They might show up when the kids come home for the holidays.

    Church attendance is declining nationwide if not worldwide. Expelling members who miss a benchmark will only hasten that decline, and cause the expelled to remove the dear old family church from their wills.

    I hope you will reconsider your thoughts about this. An offer of welcome goes much farther than a threat of expulsion.

  40. Jean: Can’t make this stuff up!

    Please tell me you did. ;( Please tell me this man will never influence another innocent soul or make a nickel off another naive initiate. Sigh. Hasn’t he done enough damage for one man?

  41. SiteSeer: I sometimes wonder how many of these odd doctrines that come down the pike are the result of human beings getting upset because God isn’t doing what they expect he ought to be doing, so they try to come up with some reason, some thing that we’re all doing wrong, that is keeping him at bay.

    Sometimes I think you must know my former pastor. I do believe that he was brainwashed into triumphal, postmillenial thinking, which led him to embrace a militant view of bringing in Christ’s kingdom, which obviously only required someone to step in and do it ‘right’. I hate to think what such men are going to be persuaded to do in the future.

  42. Max: It was predictable that they would eventually battle for the SBC throne.

    I think God has frequently stood aside as merciless men turned on and devoured one another in attempts to gain the throne of power and control.

  43. TS00,

    There are no loyal Gothardites left, are there? (I once had many in my circle, but am no longer active in that circle.)

  44. Mark R,

    I see no evidence where the believer must be a card member of any particular denimonational church system via the Scriptures, and the list of man made rules in doing so.

    Did not the early believers in our LORD, meet in homes, breaking bread with one another daily, and sharing and bearing one another’s burdens, as Jesus called all of us to do?

    And also, in constructing rigid rules and regulations that bind up people into the man-made religious construct, are we stealing like a thief in the night, the true freedom and liberty that Jesus so freely went to the Cross on our behalf? Did not Jesus come to set the captives free?

    Being a “member” of a local church, having that box checked off in all of the right areas which include attendance, works of various sorts, ie., committee work/sunday school teaching/youth group work/praise team work/kissing up to the leadership work, etc.), does not bear witness to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

    We are called to “be the church” each and every day of our lives, going about as the Holy Spirit leads us, to do what Jesus says, caring for the least of these, loving our neighbors as ourselves, and encouraging people in their faith, and most of all, loving the LORD our God with all of hearts, minds, and souls.

    Most institutional churches care far more for their buildings filled with stuff, than they do for people who are in need.

  45. dee: The TGC folks have people like Tim Challies who do not think women should be allowed to read Scripture aloud in church

    It will be interesting to see what comes of the relationship between TGC and Founders. They appear to be mostly in agreement on gender roles, but very much in disagreement over “social justice” and “wokeness.” I suspect that Founders does not have enough inertia to survive a split with the TGC crowd.

    As for Challies, I agree with you. He has a softspoken demeaner, but is very firm in his complementarianism, gender roles, authority, and Calvinism. He should be looking for a real job because his income apparently relies solely on his blog and books. He’ll need a backup plan when the house of cards finally falls.

  46. Nick Bulbeck: The label “Founders” suggests a certain level of immaturity at best – Founders of what, exactly?

    For me, this name has the “feel” of an allusion to the modernist/fundamentalist controversies of the early 20th century. The people of “Founders Ministries” might intend the name to evoke in sympathizers a sense that they are on the right side of a world-historical crisis in the churches.

    And there is a crisis; the historic post-apostolic theology consensus seems to me to be foundering. Perhaps these folks will help that along.

  47. Nick Bulbeck,

    Samuel Conner: right side of a world-historical crisis in the churches

    IOW, the foundations are at risk and they are defending and repairing them — thus the sword and trowel in their “coat of arms”.

    Of course, “founder” can be a verb as well as a noun, and I’m inclined to interpret them through the former.

  48. TS00: I hate to think what such men are going to be persuaded to do in the future.

    One of my waking nightmares is the thought of what authoritarian religious communities would be like in a possible (IMO likely) dystopia arising out of environmental degradation and ecosystem collapse.

    Google “Four Futures” by Peter Frase, and then imagine the scarcity/inequality quadrant combined with religious coercion.

    My reading of Paul leads me to think that he would prefer equality/cooperation among believers, but what Paul would prefer stopped mattering in practice a long time ago.

  49. TS00: I hate to think what such men are going to be persuaded to do in the future.

    Samuel Conner,

    I found these words rather chilling:

    Founders Ministries is now working on an upcoming film called Wield The Sword: Pastoral Courage In Perilous Times. It is a call to arms. By God’s grace we hope to encourage and equip pastors and Christians to take up the sword of the Spirit and wield it with courage.

    Metaphors get boring after awhile, and extremists eventually like to do something besides talk talk talk. The Founders themselves might not want or lead a violent movement, but they could end up radicalizing individuals or attracting worse groups.

    They might claim to traffick only in words. However, they find these words so powerful that women are not allowed to stand behind a pulpit and read them out loud.

  50. TS00: I think God has frequently stood aside as merciless men turned on and devoured one another in attempts to gain the throne of power and control.

    “If you bite and devour one another [in bickering and strife], watch out that you [along with your entire fellowship] are not consumed by one another” (Galatians 5:15).

    The devourer is at work in this SBC mess. Sovereign God is allowing the enemy to trim the ranks and remove the dross … on the other side of this pain and misery, perhaps He can still use the SBC … we’ll see.

  51. Max: on the other side of this pain and misery, perhaps He can still use the SBC

    I would like to note that God (IMO) is still using the vast majority of individual SBC churches which are actively engaged in the Great Commission. This, despite the bad behaviour of its national leadership, who obviously prefer theopolitical wrangling than preaching the Gospel. Most of SBC’s 47,000 churches have memberships less than 200, are traditional (non-Calvinist) in belief and practice, and have pastors/members ministering and evangelizing in Jesus’ name. The Founders/New Calvinist (Ascol vs. Mohler) battle is all about Calvinizing the denomination for future generations, how oppressive that should be, and who will assume the SBC throne when that happens – the old guys or their neobrethren.

  52. The 3rd female member of my family just got ordained as a minister last week. Two in the A/G, and one Methodist. You don’t want to mess with these women on what they believe or don’t believe. They will chew you up and spit you out with righteous anger. I’m proud of all of them.

  53. The community 501c3 church is filled with unhealthy ingredients just like your local fast food. Is women in the pulpit going to make it better?

  54. Brian: Are women, raised SBC, going over to the AoG and Methodist denominations to be ordained?

    I can’t answer about the SBC. However, I have spoken with a woman who experienced a call to seek ordination before her denomination began to ordain women. In that case, women’s ordination was neither explicitly barred nor explicitly allowed, but it simply was not done. A group of women broke new ground in that denomination, which has continued to ordain both men and women for several decades.

  55. Not attending church is worse than sexual abuse?!?!? I know Jesus had extremely harsh words for abusers. But I can’t remember what he said to people who skipped synagogue.

  56. Patti: Not attending church is worse than sexual abuse?!?!?

    ISTM that the same logic would apply to those who start their own independent congregations that don’t work with or submit to (however mutually) the other congregations in the area. These might be better known as “factions” than as “churches”.

  57. Sòpwith: The community 501c3 church is filled with unhealthy ingredients just like your local fast food. Is women in the pulpit going to make it better?

    I think “501(c)3” is a red herring, Sopwith. Other countries do other things to give their religious institutions a tax break. And since it’s so easy to get a 501(c)3 exemption, the people who make a point of not having one are usually kind of scary. The ones I’m aware of tend to be on the Sovereign Citizen nutbar side.

  58. The community church is filled with unhealthy ingredients just like your local fast food. Are women in the pulpit making the church better?

  59. JDV: “First, true biblical manhood is part of the solution to sexual abuse.”

    More like “Sexual Abuse is the Privileges of Rank of True Biblical Manhood”.

  60. Friend: Metaphors get boring after awhile, and extremists eventually like to do something besides talk talk talk. The Founders themselves might not want or lead a violent movement, but they could end up radicalizing individuals or attracting worse groups.

    The Intellectuals in their salons may start The Revolution, but the Street Thugs finish it.

  61. Friend: They might claim to traffick only in words. However, they find these words so powerful that women are not allowed to stand behind a pulpit and read them out loud.

    Trafficking only in Words (especially weasel words) makes Plausible Deniability easier.
    “I Said Nothing Of The Sort! LIAR! SLANDER! GOSSIP!”

  62. Samuel Conner: IOW, the foundations are at risk and they are defending and repairing them — thus the sword and trowel in their “coat of arms”.

    Historically, a “coat of arms” came with a Title of Nobility.
    A Title of Nobility with REAL power over the Lowborn commoners.

  63. Ken F (aka Tweed): As for Challies, I agree with you. He has a softspoken demeaner, but is very firm in his complementarianism, gender roles, authority, and Calvinism. He should be looking for a real job because his income apparently relies solely on his blog and books. He’ll need a backup plan when the house of cards finally falls.

    Church Planting the next big-bucks Mega?
    All those Tithe$ from the Lowborn Pewpeons…

  64. TS00: I think God has frequently stood aside as merciless men turned on and devoured one another in attempts to gain the throne of power and control.

    There Can Be Only One sitting on The Iron Throne.

    “When you play the Game of Thrones, You Win or You Die. There is NO middle ground.”
    — Cersei Lannister, Quenn of the Seven Kingdoms

  65. Mark R: I thought Gothard was out of business?I knew he got kicked out of IBLP, so did he start a new outfit using an old mailing list?

    Wouldn’t surprise me.
    Once a RIGHTEOUS Grifter, always a RIGHTEOUS Grifter.

  66. Mark R: The term comes from their view that many of the original founders of the SBC were Calvinists, and thus they want to “return” the SBC to its “heritage”.

    The “Cold Equations” of Real True Calvinism.

    According to my writing partner, the Calvinistas (whom he’s also had run-ins with) are starting to go after political power. Along with the “occult woo-woo” of the New Apostolic Reformation. (Remember them? Operation Ice Castle – Spiritual Warfare against the Demon Queen of Heaven? Pagan Temple Screamers? Killing Mother Teresa through Imprecatory Prayer?) They’re also getting on the political power bandwagon.

  67. Jerome:
    “the credits:
    …..
    SPECIAL THANKS TO DONORS OVER $250
    …..
    Bill & Tricia Willcutts”

    Hey, that’s the name of 9Mark Dever’s brother-in-law & wife!

    Keeping it all in the family, like any Third World Kleptocracy.

  68. Max: The stroke had also left him with a “speech impediment”, but he raised a harmonica in his right hand to his mouth and proceeded to play the most beautiful rendition of Amazing Grace that I have ever heard.

    Speech and music process through different parts of the brain. A survivable stroke would probably NOT take out both of them. He could not speak through words, but he could through music. A piece of non-vocal music that said what he had to say.

  69. linda schroller: I would personally rather be in a church of 10 like those old time rural churches than a church of 2000 with kick butt music, lights, fog machines, big name “pastor” who does not pastor

    Linda, my writing partner has pastored small old time rural churches, including a DYING one.
    A church of 10 is too small to be viable; if it gets that small, it’s in its death spiral.
    You need somewhere between 50 and 150 (the human troop-size limit) to be self-sustainable.

  70. SiteSeer: These disgraced Christian leaders just won’t go away. They have no sense of shame.

    How can you have a “sense of shame” when YOU CAN DO NO WRONG?

  71. JDV: Andy Savage — adult who physically dwarfs a teen drives her out to an abandoned location and makes his move. Begs her to keep silent. Moves from place to place in paid church leadership for years without let or hindrance; gives relationship advice and writes book on same. When news breaks, standing ovations and “you are worthy” occur rather than timely appropriate action from church leaderships (sic) involved.

    Bill Hybels — involves those under the pastoral purview with procuring videos and or watching them with him for so-called research; ambien handsiness, other things invoking power dynamics and what appears to be grooming behavior.

    Tom Chantry — convicted child molester, yet the number of people who came to his defense and persisted was stunning, and the efforts to secure the convictions were daunting.

    Nathan Morales (and who knows how many others) — convicted child molesters at a church that reportedly not only failed to act appropriately but advised reconciliation between a 15-year old and a girl he abused when she was three, citing an evidently twisted take on 1 Cor. 6.

    The SBC’s Judge Paul Pressler — multiple lawsuits filed and reported financial settlements regarding abuse of young males. Called the worst kept secret, yet dodged accountability long enough to be on stained glass.

    ‘Uncle Raggy’ Ragsdale — Methodist youth pastor on tape acknowledging abuse of 10-year old, later claiming in interview that the 10-year old that he dwarfed in size and age was actually the perp.

    Tom Randall and indigenous mission personnel — charges of abuse at an orphanage as well as inappropriate touching of young female by Tom. Questionable reaction and investigation by church leaders (sic)

    Larry Nassar — throwing him in here too to see how Biblical manhood would have factored into a better outcome in this secular setting

    So…

    WHAT DOES ‘BIBLICAL MANHOOD’ HAVE TO DO WITH ANY OF THIS?!?!?

    JUSTIFICATION.
    COSMIC LEVEL JUSTIFICATION CLAIMING THE AUTHORITY OF GOD HIMSELF.

    “Men of Sin” will glom onto ANY Cosmic-Level Authority — God, Torah, Bible, Koran, Marx, Darwin, Freud, Rand, Kinsey, Nature, Science — to Justify “What I Wanna”.

  72. Headless Unicorn Guy: More like “Sexual Abuse is the Privileges of Rank of True Biblical Manhood”.

    Exactly!!!! Once you find out what they mean by True Biblical Manhood, you feel sexually assaulted by all who believe it, and especially by those who require you to submit to it in order to be a member of their church. It feels sadistic to me, and I think of the women who submit to it as masochistic.

  73. Sòpwith: Is women in the pulpit going to make it better?

    That depends on the church doctrine. As far as the churches that we are discussing in this post, if they suddenly decided that men and women were equal, then no, it would not improve their churches one iota. Why? Because then the women just believe that they have the same authority that their men believe that they have. Now, if we discuss churches that believe the most early manuscripts teach that pastors and church leaders have no more authority over anyone else, then yes, letting women finally be able to fulfill any ministry that God has called them to serve in, even if that means chief overseer of the goings ons of the congregation that trusts them to have their best interests at heart, then yes, by all means yes, those churches will improve.

  74. Friend: You voluntarily left, but you think others should be forced out? Please forgive a heartfelt disagreement.

    As a lifelong Christian recovering from both abuse and burnout, I alone decide whether, where, and how often I attend church. We have freedom of worship in the US. Ordained folks do not get to measure my performance. Under your rules, who will determine whether a reason is a good enough excuse to stay away?

    Your rules also cannot discern whether church membership remains precious to someone who attends rarely. People choose to remain on rolls for many reasons. Some return after an absence due to overwork. They might show up when the kids come home for the holidays.

    Church attendance is declining nationwide if not worldwide. Expelling members who miss a benchmark will only hasten that decline, and cause the expelled to remove the dear old family church from their wills.

    I hope you will reconsider your thoughts about this. An offer of welcome goes much farther than a threat of expulsion.

    I’m not talking about attendance. Church membership isn’t required for that, I attend a church regularly but am not a member of it.

    But I know from first-hand experience how the membership rolls are. There was one case where a person wrote us, telling us that the family joined a Methodist church. But Baptist churches as a general rule don’t grant (or accept) letters of transfer from non-Baptist ones, yet they won’t take them off the rolls either; ours was that way and therefore they remained on the roll. And in the church where I grew up, there were at least 100 names where we had NO address or phone number, or what we had was way outdated (this was before the Internet).

    The reason why this existed was due to how SBC churches used to determine the number of messengers a church could have at association, state convention, or the Annual Meeting. So a church might have 125 regular attenders plus those who are legitimately unable to attend, but have 700 on the rolls, which often allowed an extra one or two messengers.

    My view is that if a church has a person who does not attend or otherwise support it, the church should find out the reason. If the person is legitimately unable to attend or support (e.g. poor health), that’s one thing (and the church should care for him/her). If the person states they are a member or regular attender or support another congregation elsewhere, or they indicate a desire no longer to be a member, they should not be on the roll because their actions indicate they have chosen to leave (and maybe the church bylaws need to be updated). If they can’t locate the person, then a public notice in the paper may be warranted in an attempt to reach out.

    If they have been legitimately hurt by another member, then there should be an attempt to reconcile. But I know from personal experience that people will use that as an excuse to stop going; the incident could have been 20 years ago and the other person long gone. Growing up, we had a person who flat out wasn’t doing her job as financial secretary; she hadn’t reconciled the checking account IN 18 MONTHS. The church treasurer told the pastor that she was taking over the duties (which the bylaws allowed) and that I would be assisting her (again, the bylaws allowed). The secretary up and left the church and told everyone that as long as Mark R and his family were members she wouldn’t be back. Six months later our family left (I went to one church and my parents went to another); you guessed it, she didn’t return.

    Bottom line: there is nothing in the Bible stating that you must be a formal church member; in fact there would have been no such thing because any such list, if in the wrong hands, would have been a death warrant. If a person wants to attend a specific church without joining, or attend various churches to experience various Christian traditions that’s fine. But if a person says that s/he wants to be a formal member of a congregation, then s/he should attend and support it to the best of his/her ability, and if and when the time comes when s/he can no longer do so in good conscience, then s/he should take the initiative and either join elsewhere, or at a minimum remove themselves from the rolls.

  75. Karen:
    Mark R,

    I see no evidence where the believer must be a card member of any particular denimonational church system via the Scriptures, and the list of man made rules in doing so.

    Did not the early believers in our LORD, meet in homes, breaking bread with one another daily, and sharing and bearing one another’s burdens, as Jesus called all of us to do?

    And also, in constructing rigid rules and regulations that bind up people into the man-made religious construct, are we stealing like a thief in the night, the true freedom and liberty that Jesus so freely went to the Cross on our behalf? Did not Jesus come to set the captives free?

    Being a “member” of a local church, having that box checked off in all of the right areas which include attendance, works of various sorts, ie., committee work/sunday school teaching/youth group work/praise team work/kissing up to the leadership work, etc.), does not bear witness to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

    We are called to “be the church” each and every day of our lives, going about as the Holy Spirit leads us, to do what Jesus says, caring for the least of these, loving our neighbors as ourselves, and encouraging people in their faith, and most of all, loving the LORD our God with all of hearts, minds, and souls.

    Most institutional churches care far more for their buildings filled with stuff, than they do for people who are in need.

    I agree, there is no requirement to formally be a member. What I don’t agree with is a person who says they’re a member of X Church, who has the ability to attend or otherwise support it, but chooses not to do so. It does X Church no good to claim it has 2,000 members yet barely has 200 that can be counted on to support its work.

    Yes, I used to be in that exact situation. Then I realized I was in the wrong. I had three options: return to that church and indicate an intent to support it (I had no intention of doing so), formally transfer my membership elsewhere and notify them I had, or formally withdraw my membership, and I chose the third option.

  76. Headless Unicorn Guy: The “Cold Equations” of Real True Calvinism.

    According to my writing partner, the Calvinistas (whom he’s also had run-ins with) are starting to go after political power. Along with the “occult woo-woo” of the New Apostolic Reformation. (Remember them? Operation Ice Castle – Spiritual Warfare against the Demon Queen of Heaven? Pagan Temple Screamers? Killing Mother Teresa through Imprecatory Prayer?) They’re also getting on the political power bandwagon.

    I’m familiar with NAR; I live 20 minutes from Gateway Church. And Morris is one of three DFW area pastors who meet with President Trump regularly (along with Jeffress and Graham).

  77. Mark R,

    Thanks very much for your thoughtful responses. I agree that there is room for church shenanigans to gain advantage by counting phantoms. People can certainly behave cheaply. (To belabor my point, I don’t believe in punishing members who might well want to stay on the rolls.)

  78. Brian: Now, options in ordination for women are occurring in other denominations, are women leaving the SBC to do this?

    Sadly, the only SBC case I know concerns a woman who was ordained in the SBC, and who had her ordination revoked by the SBC (not sure of the terminology, sorry). She did not move to a different denomination.

  79. Patti,

    You make wonderful points.

    From my limited observations, arguments for ordaining women have been framed as an issue of justice, of examining evidence in Scripture that was long overlooked, and/or of God doing something new. None of that is terribly compatible with authoritarian theology.

    I’ve been listening to women preach since hearing Kathryn Kuhlman on the radio during my early childhood. Seeing them in the pulpit about 30 years ago was a different experience, but I got used to it pretty quickly.

    Sometimes I think opponents of women’s ordination just assume they’ll climb up in the pulpit and start burning their bras and yelling wacky things. That would be far more entertaining than a typical Sunday at my church.

  80. Friend: Sometimes I think opponents of women’s ordination just assume they’ll climb up in the pulpit and start burning their bras and yelling wacky things. That would be far more entertaining than a typical Sunday at my church.

    It sure would! But we all know that the point of church is not entertainment

  81. Regarding the title “By What Standards? God’s World…God’s Rules”, what happens if you get a God like The Pious Piper’s? A God whose only goal is to Glorify Himself, no matter how many He has to harm or destroy to do it? Isn’t that usually called Malignant Narcissism?

    And the title reminds me of one screaming preacher I heard on AM radio during my time in-country, specifically a tag line of his “WE ARE JUST THE CREATURE! GOD! IS! THE! CREATOR!” (and a Creature has to Submit to His Creator). Not much distance to “God is God because POWER IS POWER and God Holds The Biggest Whip”. (And isn’t “Islam” the Arabic word for “Submission”?)

  82. Friend: From my limited observations, arguments for ordaining women have been framed as an issue of justice, of examining evidence in Scripture that was long overlooked, and/or of God doing something new. None of that is terribly compatible with authoritarian theology

    Isn’t “Authoritarian Theology” just fancy words for “God Holds The Biggest Whip and he gave it to Me His Anointed Theologian to Use Carte Blanche”?

  83. Friend: Thanks very much for your thoughtful responses. I agree that there is room for church shenanigans to gain advantage by counting phantoms.

    Remember how Scientology claims its numbers.

  84. Headless Unicorn Guy: God, Torah, Bible, Koran, Marx, Darwin, Freud, Rand, Kinsey, Nature, Science — to Justify “What I Wanna”.

    Militant atheism is no different.
    They scour land and sea for new proselytes too.

  85. Samuel Conner: One of my waking nightmares is the thought of what authoritarian religious communities would be like in a possible (IMO likely) dystopia

    Read “The Handmaids Tale” or “Vox”? This is what the outside world thinks of how complementariansm is playing out in churches run by the Founders and Tim Challies, and it ain’t pretty…

  86. Friend: They might claim to traffick only in words. However, they find these words so powerful that women are not allowed to stand behind a pulpit and read them out loud.

    I’ve found it puzzling that John Piper, for example, is ok reading a book written by a woman because it is somehow less authoritative, and yet, in theory, the most important authority in his life speaks through a book.

  87. Friend: Sometimes I think opponents of women’s ordination just assume they’ll climb up in the pulpit and start burning their bras and yelling wacky things.

    Speaking as a woman who has zero desire to be ordained, I could care less about burning metaphorical bras. I suspect many women simply want to know that they have a voice in decisions that are made that affect them in ways men may not realize. And since we’re talking about pulpits, I have what could prove to be a useful sermon illustration to demonstrate my point.

    The women’s restroom at my former workplace was remodeled. The male plumber who installed the toilet paper dispensers installed them BEHIND the toilet. Which I guess makes sense if you are standing and facing the toilet, but is really awkward when you’re sitting and having to twist and reach two feet behind you. Literally hundreds of women accessed that bathroom daily, and all were inconvenienced because of one man’s lack of understanding into how women work, apparently.

    To his credit, he did come back and relocate the dispensers to a more convenient location when we explained the situation. This was soured by the fact, however, that he ignored my and my female manager’s requests to investigate a bad smell for over two months. It wasn’t until a male colleague complained about it that the plumber did a more thorough investigation and discovered he had neglected to reconnect the vent pipes, and sewer smell had been wafting directly into our workspaces. Stuff like that gets real old real quick, in secular or ecclesiastical circles.

  88. Wild Honey: I suspect many women simply want to know that they have a voice in decisions that are made that affect them in ways men may not realize.

    I think that all, not some, women want that all of the time. But those who are called by God to certain ministries that men block them from just simply cannot ignore their calling any more than the prophets and prophetesses of old could. Who knows? God may yet call you still, even though you could care less about that right now, just as Amos and many others who had no desire for the pulpit until God put the fire to preach inside of them.

  89. Mark R,

    You have made some valid points Mark R., however, the believer and follower of Jesus Christ is not burdened with the transference of the membership card from church to church denominations as a so called responsibility. Jesus never instituted such burdens, rigid rules, nor laws regarding the formalities of in the Body of Christ. The membership structure is in fact a tradition of man, used to manipulate, control, and guilt believers into following man, rather than Christ.

    As far as the giving and supporting roles regarding believers, we have that freedom, liberty, and amazing privilege of being the church wherever we go, on a daily basis, and can give freely to those in need, as well as bless those who hungering for an encouraging Word, Jesus.

    When witnessing, ministering, and helping those in need, did not Christ call each one of us, the priesthood of believers, to be His sheep in this regard? And are we not to point people to Jesus our Savior, rather than this denomination or that one, for how many denominations are there on this earth that all claim to be the best one in knowing Jesus?

  90. Wild Honey: Read “The Handmaids Tale” or “Vox”?This is what the outside world thinks of how complementariansm is playing out in churches run by the Founders and Tim Challies, and it ain’t pretty…

    In my imagination, in possible future conditions in which life is much harsher for everyone, it will be necessary for people to be tightly integrated into communities for simple survival. The thought of authoritarian communities that believe they have Divine warrant for being the way they are having that kind of control over much of the planet’s population is disheartening.

  91. Wild Honey: The women’s restroom at my former workplace was remodeled. The male plumber who installed the toilet paper dispensers installed them BEHIND the toilet. Which I guess makes sense if you are standing and facing the toilet

    Nah, that doesn’t make sense for commodes in men’s rooms either.

  92. Samuel Conner: In my imagination, in possible future conditions in which life is much harsher for everyone, it will be necessary for people to be tightly integrated into communities for simple survival. The thought of authoritarian communities that believe they have Divine warrant for being the way they are having that kind of control over much of the planet’s population is disheartening.

    A bonus part is tha much of dirty work will never be face to face but by automated means

  93. JDV: “Second, Feminism has been trying to leverage the sexual abuse of women to advance its unbiblical agenda.”

    I read this article previously and this is the line that truly makes me angry.

    Everything is about ‘leverage’ to them. This is why they will never fix the problem.

  94. Lea: I read this article previously and this is the line that truly makes me angry.

    Everything is about ‘leverage’ to them.

    When they can only think of ANYTHING as Zero-Sum Power Struggle…

    Because in Zero Sum Power Struggle there are only two possible states: My Boot stamping on your face or your Boot stamping on mine. Forever. And the only way to avoid the latter is to make sure of the former. Forever.

    And in a Zero Sum game, since there is only so much Maguffin to go around, the only way to get more for Me is to take it away from You. The only way I Win is to Make You Lose.

    “When you play the Game of Thrones, You Win or You Die. There is no middle ground.”
    — Cersei Lannister, Queen of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros

  95. Muff Potter: Militant atheism is no different.
    They scour land and sea for new proselytes too.

    With the usual results as described by that Rabbi from Nazareth?

  96. Muff Potter: Militant atheism is no different.

    Militant Fundamentalism is a state of mind and attitude that can attach itself to ANY belief system. And can switch from system to system with ease.

    After WW2, Stalin’s NKVD forcibly converted new Enforcers from the Nazi security types they didn’t kill outright. Fundamentalist Nazis easily switched to Fundamentalist Communists.

  97. HeadlessUnicornGuy: When they can only think of ANYTHING as Zero-Sum Power Struggle…

    Yep. We can’t fix sexual assault because what if some woman somewhere gets a little bit of power/clout/attention out of it? Can’t. Have. That.

    Disgusting. They give themselves away, always. Same as the ‘how will two people every possibly make a decision if one of them isn’t the boss’ folks who just sound bonkers to the rest of us.

  98. Lea,

    Question, looking for better understanding. For a woman who has been sexually assaulted, I thought the first things she looked for were feeling safe again, to feel confident in her surroundings?

  99. Karen: I see no evidence where the believer must be a card member of any particular denimonational church system via the Scriptures, and the list of man made rules in doing so.

    After 70 years of being a card-carrying member of the Southern Baptist Convention, I left the denomination when theological wrangling began to supersede Gospel preaching, when the authority of men supplanted the authority of Christ, when the free church of Jesus was replaced by an oppressive house on shifting sand. My obituary will now read “He was a member of the Body of Christ.”

  100. PaulD: Cue HUG saying “Touch not mine anointed!”

    Some dude got bigtime mad at me for telling me his military analogy (regarding relationships between men and women) was a poor representation of the actual military, in addition to being a poor idea of romantic relationships.

  101. Brian: Are women, raised SBC, going over to the AoG and Methodist denominations to be ordained?

    I don’t know what the numbers are, but I know someone at my own denom (PCUSA) who just got ordained who is a former baptist.

  102. WildHoney: I suspect many women simply want to know that they have a voice in decisions that are made that affect them in ways men may not realize.

    IMO, as a fellow woman who has no desire to be ordained (although I kind of am, we ordain deacons, i’m not a preacher), I think you are right. But also…it says something very important about the value of women in that church. And that difference can be felt in somewhat intangible ways that might be difficult to articulate, but are nonetheless real. It flows all the way down too, from ministers, to deacons and elders, to sunday school and every other thing.

    churches with rules against women being one thing will have rules against them being another. And so on and so forth.

  103. Brian: For a woman who has been sexually assaulted, I thought the first things she looked for were feeling safe again, to feel confident in her surroundings?

    I don’t know, i’m probably not the person to ask. I don’t know that this is church specific, if I were in the immediate aftermath I would imagine I would not go personally. People vary.

    Anyways, I’m sure that’s important, but I’m not sure it has much to do with my point. Are you meaning to speak to the existence of power differentials as being actively threatening to victims?

  104. Lea: People vary.

    As do circumstances. People who were assaulted today by a stranger will react differently from people who were groomed years ago, attacked as children, betrayed by a husband, etc. And not all abuse is physically violent. The trauma can be emotional, psychological, spiritual. Every survivor has a unique story, needs, and desires.

  105. Ken P.: SBC seminaries cab accept anyone they want (SWBTS accepted a Muslim once), but members of SBC churches get a significant break on tuition costs. That could keep a church in the SBC, but it is a benefit for the student and not the church.

    Yes, when I attended I went for half cost as a member of a SBC church. The tuition was actually very reasonable compared to in-state college.

    This actually became a problem for me, as my church split and the group that took over for awhile wanted to disaffiliate with the SBC.

  106. Lea: HeadlessUnicornGuy: When they can only think of ANYTHING as Zero-Sum Power Struggle…
    Yep. We can’t fix sexual assault because what if some woman somewhere gets a little bit of power/clout/attention out of it? Can’t. Have. That.

    But if they were honest, I’m betting they want to be in charge of everyone. At the very least, they haven’t made it a secret that they believe they should be in charge of the SBC and the “Calvinist Revolution” (as if they invented it…)

    It’s like Siteseer said above, WHAT GOD HATH ORDAINED always seems to coincide with what would benefit them more than others.

  107. ishy,
    I should expound on my belief about the Founders and many New Calvinists for that matter.

    The SBC was not founded on wanting to follow God. It was founded on the belief that men of a certain standing should own other humans. And the Founders claim to want to go back to the roots of the SBC founding.

    I know it’s been claimed it’s all about the roots of Calvinism, but the Founders and many New Calvinists have pressed so hard about the subordination of women, to the point of making a semi-heretical theology about it, that I believe it can’t be all about Calvinism. They make a huge deal out of hierarchy, that some men are more special and ordained to “lead” others. They talk a lot about elder rule. They claim that they have the ability to determine who belongs to God and who doesn’t.

    As for elder rule, they seem to want to rule over men as much as women, but without some sort of bait, they wouldn’t attract a following. Promise men they get to rule over women, and they “might” one day rule over other men, and they find followers in men who care not for God, but for their own dominion. Mohler and company are too smart to go by racial divides recently, but Ascol and company have made some mistakes in that regard. But let’s not forget Mohler was in Dodeka, which mandated all members had to be white men. In case you need a refresher, Todd Wilham has recently written a great article about this: https://thouarttheman.org/2019/12/14/does-albert-mohler-compromise-his-ethics-to-keep-wealthy-donors-happy/

    I believe they want slavery to be alive and well. Make women automatic slaves to men, and trick men into being servants to the “elite”.

  108. ishy: let’s not forget Mohler was in Dodeka, which mandated all members had to be white men

    When a young Dr. Mohler was asked point-blank about his membership in the secret society Dodeka shortly after he became SBTS President in 1993, he claimed it was nothing more than a social dinner group. I have always had my doubts about this, perhaps because of Mohler’s chilling stare and measured response during that Q&A session with seminary students. His chilling demeanor has never left him.

    Check out his Dodeka response beginning at 30:00 in the following:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQTQOnv21Z8&feature=youtu.be

  109. Max: Mohler’s chilling stare and measured response during that Q&A session with seminary students. His chilling demeanor has never left him.

    I can’t even watch that again because Mohler is so disturbing all the way through it.

    The cruelty and heartlessness that came over so many people I knew at the “takeover” could not have come from God. Suddenly friends and acquaintances of mine had this belief that they were going to be leaders and masterminds in churches where everyone would obey their every word. When they talked about the glorious revolution, it was always about them and the power they would obtain or quoting New Calvinist leaders by rote. God was left wholly out of the equation, except when He was convenient to name as the one who ordained their election and future power.

  110. ishy: The cruelty and heartlessness that came over so many people I knew at the “takeover” could not have come from God.

    Absolutely no fingerprints of God on this SBC mess. The new reformation has been mean-spirited from the get-go. The characters who rose to the top of the heap have been unscrupulous and mercenary.

  111. Max: Absolutely no fingerprints of God on this SBC mess. The new reformation has been mean-spirited from the get-go. The characters who rose to the top of the heap have been unscrupulous and mercenary.

    I’m wondering why the SBC doesn’t just do a split like the Lutherans (LCMS and ELCA) did decades ago?

  112. Muff Potter: I’m wondering why the SBC doesn’t just do a split like the Lutherans (LCMS and ELCA) did decades ago?

    Because neither camp (non-Calvinist vs. Calvinist) wants to give up the stuff (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, 47,000 churches, etc.). They will just find a way to agree to disagree, get along to go along, and make room under the big SBC tent for diverse theologies. In the meantime, they have lost their mantle of evangelism while the elite vye for control.

  113. ishy: Mohler and company are too smart to go by racial divides recently, but Ascol and company have made some mistakes in that regard. But let’s not forget Mohler was in Dodeka, which mandated all members had to be white men.

    I read your comments and a lot of it tracks. This part is disturbing as well. (I have realized there is a lot more white supremacy stuff floating around than I used to think.) I have always thought calvinism was just a clue style red herring really. Power and control over others is at the root of many of these guys philosophy. Women are perhaps just the easiest targets.

  114. ishy: The cruelty and heartlessness that came over so many people I knew at the “takeover” could not have come from God.

    I talked to people from the ‘liberal’ presby seminary near one of the takeover seminaries and they talked about how noticeably more frosty everyone got towards them afterwards. That just seems wrong.

  115. Max: The characters who rose to the top of the heap have been unscrupulous and mercenary.

    I’m sure that in their own minds, they are wielding weapons of righteousness in the left hand and right.

  116. Samuel Conner: I’m sure that in their own minds, they are wielding weapons of righteousness in the left hand and right.

    The problem with deception is that one doesn’t know he is deceived because he is deceived.

  117. ishy: I believe they want slavery to be alive and well. Make women automatic slaves to men, and trick men into being servants to the “elite”.

    Bingo! Fundamentalism in a nutshell.

  118. Max: I have always had my doubts about this, perhaps because of Mohler’s chilling stare and measured response during that Q&A session with seminary students. His chilling demeanor has never left him.

    Seeing this the first time a year or so ago completely changed my impression of Mohler. He looked and sounded like a cold, brainwashed zombie the entire session. He could easily have passed for a Nazi leader laying down the new law to a conquered community. He has since learned to exhibit a warmer demeanor, but there is something frightening behind that man.

  119. Sòpwith: Are women in the pulpit making the church better?

    During the Second Great Awakening, if the church didn’t provide them a pulpit, God did:
    “In the Second Great Awakening more than one hundred women crisscrossed the country as itinerant preachers, holding meetings in barns, schools, or outside in fields. They were the first group of women to speak publicly in
    America. Why have virtually all of them been forgotten?”

    https://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/98759.pdf