Another TWW Tutorial: What’s Missing? Caring Well/Summit Church Curriculum Appears to Want Registered Sex Offenders to Feel No Shame in Church


Wolf

“When you are being hunted, set your mind as the predator.” ― Toba Beta


It appears that I did not check a box to allow comments. I apologize. Comment away!

(Note: For purposes of this article I am discussing serious, registered sex offenders. I am not putting the 19 year old male who has sex with his 16 year old girlfriend into the category of predators.)

One of the nice things about blogging for years is the people who notify me when interesting or eyebrow raising material hits social media. The first thing that made me aware that Registered Sex Offenders were being given unusual access to a church was this text from a local friend who texted me:

Summit’s new Registered Sex Offender (RSO) policy? Yes or no?

It is unclear whether or not the policy has been or will implemented be at The Summit Church. However, it is printed with The Summit Church logo. Is this one of those political *trial balloons?” Throw it out there and see what happens? I have not found it on their website as of yet. At the very minimum, Summit members should be aware of this document since it is supported by their leaders.

Summit-Church-Sex-Offender-Policy_2019

Brad Hambrick is the author of this document for Caring Well.  He is also the Pastor of Counseling at The Summit Church. He considers himself a  Biblical Counselor and teaches this subject at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Jimmy Hinton did an excellent post on some troubling aspects of this policy.

SBC’s Caring Well stance on abusers coddles them while keeping them hidden within the church

Your Challenge:

There are a number of things that worry me about this document. However, I believe that there is a substantive issue that is being underplayed. I will list a few other issues that I see with the policy. I will save the* challenge answer *until the end. However, you may totally disagree with me and I look forward to your thoughts on the matter.

Why Jimmy Hinton became concerned about this document.

Jimmy has read through the Caring Well Curriculum. He said he believes the policy which appears In Lesson #10, goes out of its way to protect the wolves and I am inclined to agree with him.

Advocates and abuse survivors are not quite convinced that the SBC is really working to protect victims. Neither am I, especially after going through the Caring Well curriculum. To be fair, most of the content is decent. I found myself audibly Amen-ing Diane Langberg and Rachael Denhollander throughout. Those two understand abusers and what it takes to keep people safe from them. Then I came to Lesson Ten–Pastoral Care and Correction For an Abuser. The problem with this dangerous lesson is the same problem I encounter with the vast majority of churches–the theology doesn’t allow them to name people as wolves and to keep them at bay. Worse, it actually protects the wolf while leaving the sheep vulnerable.

I love the way he puts this. The false theology surrounding this problem is  one that assumes that all people are in actuality repenting. (This is a clue towards answering the challenge question.) I find this.

This false theology of protecting abusers assumes that all people are capable of repenting and that the church should be a place where all are welcome, regardless of what they’ve done (or are doing). It’s driven by authoritarian leadership structures that give leaders all the power to make decisions regarding abusers, regardless of what church members or abuse survivors think. It allows leaders to keep the church in the dark about the presence of abusers and anyone who questions the leaders’ decisions are labeled as divisive trouble makers.

This document under The Summit Church logo is taken directly from Lesson 12 of the Caring Well materials according tho Hinton. You will see the similarities.

Here are some concerning aspects of this document.

The policy appears to assume that the RSO is experiencing emotional difficulty with the consequences of *past* actions.

Of course coming to grips with past predatory behavior is difficult and it darn well should be. The RSO has harmed another person who has had to live with the longterm consequences of being abused. The long term emotional consequences for the VICTIM are downright devastating. Somehow, this is glossed over in favor of the delicate sensibilities of your everyday church predator.

The church leaders want believe that the RSO is actually experiencing emotional difficulties due to their heartsick realization that their past actions have ruined another person’s life.  But, what if the RSO is doing what predators do best-playing games in order to manipulate church leaders and gain access to the children?The recidivism rate is something that must be considered.It is not inconsequential.

We recognize that wrestling with the consequences of past actions can be emotionally difficult. We want to reiterate throughout this process that you are offered full forgiveness because of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection.

Dear RSO, don’t live with a sense of shame.What?

I think it is emotionally and spiritually valid to live with a sense of shame over heinous actions. Shouldn’t a man who has molested all of his foster children, as well neighborhood kids, be ashamed and even wrestle with it for the rest of his life? Good night! One might think they are discussing how not to feel shame for exceeding the speed limit.

There is also an assumption that the RSO’s expression of shame is real as opposed to a game they play in order to manipulate adults in order to gain access to the children. (Another hint.)

We recognize that wrestling with the consequences of past actions can be emotionally difficult. We want to reiterate throughout this process that you are offered full forgiveness because of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. We do not want you to live with a sense of shame.

Most of the members of the church will not be told about the presence of an RSO and that is dangerous.

The lowly members of The Summit will not be told about the RSO who is attending church. This is a dangerous plan.The Summit is a huge church with tons of kids in their youth programs. It’s really nice that the high up leaders are aware of the presence of a predator but they are NOT the ones who care the most about the well being of the children. Parents are the ones who care and love their children and are naturally protective. They should be told of the presence of an RSO.

Who would know about this arrangement and agreement? Those who would know about this arrangement are: the pastors of the Summit Church, the lay elders at your campus, campus security teams, and the point person(s) over children and student ministries at your campus.

Are they afraid to hurt the feelings of the predator by *outing* them? That is ridiculous. These predators are designated Registered Sex Offenders because they are publicly registered due to their crimes. The cat is already out of the bag. If this RSOP wants to come to church, he should be willing to allow his picture to be posted around the public areas. Why wouldn’t he unless he has some ulterior plans? Do you want to know how serious this person is about needing help to overcome his problem? Ask to post his picture around the church and see if he becomes angry.

I am so concerned about this that I have a suggestion for the parents at The Summit. Why don’t you get together and publish a list of registered sex offenders that people know are attending the church. Give the list  to the other parents. For example, there were a number of people in my former church who knew that Don Cameron was a child sex offender and a number of people warned one another about his presence. The pastor at one of the churches coddled him which came back to bite the church.

So the church wants the RSO to attend a small group meetings in homes when children are present so long as the parents give permission. They call this *doing life together.*

I believe this policy puts an awful burden on the parents of The Summit. Imagine they know how much the pastors want to have RSOs attending their church and small groups. Not only that but the pastors want them to be treated well and not to be shamed. I believe that subtle pressure on the families could be applied if it hasn’t already happened. “Don’t you believe that Jesus can heal even pedophiles?”

I will not attend a Summit Church small group or visit the home of a Summit Church family where children are present,without the parent knowing my history and giving permission for my entry into their home.

The pastoral staff is given way too much leeway in determining whether or not the RSO should be allowed. to attend the church

Look at some of these questions. When I notified the pastor at the Anglican Church that Don Cameron was wandering around, he told me that Cameron was not at risk to reoffend. This was a man with a life long history of doing just that. In the end, he was kicked out of the church because he did what pedophiles do. He got a bit too friendly with the kids. Pastors do not have the training to evaluate pedophiles. Predatory behavior is not just *another sin like any other.*

The grand finale: What is the underlying problem with this entire document?

The document never once states that pedophiles, molesters, and other types of people with paraphiliac have a profound, deep rooted psychiatric problem. This is not just another sin. In fact, for most of them, there is no definitive cure at this time. Some will be able to learn to control their impulses but it is always there, lurking in the background and it is foolish and perilous to assume that they are healed.

To make matters worse, far too many people in the church believe that this is a simple *repentance* problem and that all will be well. Blithely saying that Jesus will heal you is problematic since sometimes He doesn’t. Some pedophiles will learn to cope with their disorder with a whole bunch of help from professionals and I mean well trained psychiatrists, psychologists, etc. However, some in the church have bought into the *it’s all about sin* approach. This is naive and dangerous.

Predators are expert manipulators. That is why so few are arrested. Why is that?  They know how to charm the parents and are experts in playing the repentance game with young, inexperienced pastors who think 3 years in a divinity school has made them competent to counsel everything that falls into their laps. The predators love such naiveté.

I am smart enough to know that I can be manipulated by expert predators.  On. the other hand, I’ve met a number of pastors like that Anglican pastor as well as church members who think they would know if the guy is playing games… except they don’t. They get fooled like everyone else.

Let me close with this quote from Jimmy Hinton’s post about predators who can fake repentance and sorrow when necessary. Caring Well means to understand that a smart predator can fool everyone.

(Parole board member) A couple of years ago I interviewed someone who works with the parole board and has worked in the prison for over 22 years. He told me that sex offenders always change character when before the board. They know the right things to say and when and how to cry. It is all faked. He described one inmate who was a serial child rapist who propped his feet on my friend’s desk. He was cocky and arrogant. A few days later he was before the parole board and was sobbing, saying he’s learned from his mistakes and promised to never hurt anyone again. He was so “ashamed” of what he had done. Here is an excerpt from my interview:

(Jimmy Hintons asking a question) Unless someone is an abuse survivor, most Christians I interact with assume that child predators are remorseful and ashamed when they go to prison and that they pose little risk when they get out of prison.  Does this perception match the reality you see with incarcerated sex offenders?

(Parole board member.)“Absolutely not.  We obviously see that remorse about every time I interview a sex offender in my room or any time a parole agent does.  I don’t interview as many as I used to but when I do remorse is always the first thing we see. They are crying and say they are so sorry for what they have done.  When they get to my department they want to sit on the tack because that’s how they’re getting out the door. In Pennsylvania, we have the Act 98 law. The law says that if you are not admitting to your crime and you are not in treatment, you are not even considered for parole.  So remorse is their ticket to get a green light to the parole board.“

Comments

Another TWW Tutorial: What’s Missing? Caring Well/Summit Church Curriculum Appears to Want Registered Sex Offenders to Feel No Shame in Church — 76 Comments

  1. This post is a IMO good illustration of the risks of assuming that one’s theology is sufficiently sound and relevant that it can function as the basis of real-life decisions in cases that are really consequential.

    One wishes that offenders would develop a sense of internal grief at the harm they have caused to others, and that this internal constraint would get in the way of future infliction of harm. Most of us experience this and it’s natural to assume that everyone else does too. One also hopes that offenders would develop “fear of God”, and that would also function as an internal constraint.

    But there are people, like the ‘unjust judge’ of Jesus story, who neither fear God nor care about people, and these people need external constraints to limit the harm they do to others. Shame is such a constraint. IMO churches discourage this only at great peril.

  2. I appreciate this post. It is amazing to me how naive the church overall is. What is coming out of the SBTS and other seminaries in “counseling” is just dangerous in this regard. In my opinion they have thrown out the baby with the bath water. There are things that can be learned from studying human behavior. There are deep seeded problems that humans who give themselves over to sins such as this. It just doesn’t go away through a professed conversion experience. What is so hard to understand about that?

  3. “… pedophiles, molesters, and other types of people with paraphilic have a profound, deep rooted psychiatric problem. This is not just another sin. In fact, for most of them, there is no definitive cure at this time. Some will be able to learn to control their impulses but it is always there, lurking in the background and it is foolish and perilous to assume that they are healed …” (Dee)

    This really is the bottom-line. We’ve seen too many cases in the American church where a sex offender “got Jesus” just long enough to gain access to new victims. Most are masters of deception.

  4. “Therefore take heed to yourselves and to the entire flock, over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know that after my departure, dreadful wolves will enter among you, not sparing the flock” (Acts 20:28-29)

    So, who are pastors supposed to protect their congregations from? Who is this “wolf” really? Who is this adversary which manifests himself in various ways? Who is this destroyer? The American church doesn’t talk much about the devil these days who still roams the earth seeking whom he ‘may’ devour. If you are not on the alert to discern his presence, you’ll miss him coming in the back door. Let’s don’t so easily give him an opportunity to kill, steal and destroy while we endeavor to “care well.” Take heed!!

  5. A few years ago I read Clara Hilton’s (Jimmy’s mother) entire blog. She was married to a pedophile for 40 years and didn’t know it. It shows how he groomed her and his entire church.

    It was very educational. I had no idea before then how pedophiles operated. Her blog is at:

    findingahealingplace.com

    Click on Start Here to read her story from the beginning.

  6. I’m hoping East Cooper Baptist in Mount Pleasant SC stops encouraging individuals on their website to volunteer with a ministry run by a sex offender that houses sex offenders. We are way behind the proverbial 8 ball

  7. My psychologist told me the other day that she believes are sex offenders have narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). This disorder could explain the way they manipulate everyone around them and the fact that there is no cure for personality disorders.

  8. So what would happen if you were to tell JD Greear that you don’t want to be in one of their share-your-deepest-darkest-secrets-and-cry small groups, or you don’t believe in tithing? Would there be any handwringing about how sensitive you are about being accused and treated as a liability?

  9. I see what they are doing as defiance to the whole “caring well” program and those who instituted it.

  10. Will that PDF file/document turn out to be a pied piper for pedophiles to flock to that church?

  11. If they are so intent to witness to pedophiles, why don’t they do it in a “visiting a shut-in” format?

  12. These words from Jimmy Hinton stuck out to me: “This false theology of protecting abusers assumes that all people are capable of repenting and that the church should be a place where all are welcome, regardless of what they’ve done (or are doing). It’s driven by authoritarian leadership structures that give leaders all the power…”

    Offering safe haven to abusers is a sick, extreme caricature of what churches tend to do (not always laudably): accept some people, reject others, require certain beliefs, uphold specific values and standards, etc.

    If you want to have a ministry to sex offenders, fine. But do it in the open instead of camouflaging them and rushing to their aid.

    And meanwhile, don’t go around complaining that the church down the road lets women preach and even show their elbows in public.

    We need sane standards. Sigh.

  13. Doesn’t Wade Burleson’s church have a policy of escorting offenders while on church property? It has been a while since I read it, but if I recall correctly, it made a lot of sense.

  14. “What’s Missing?”

    A total lack of discernment all the way around the church and it’s “Caring Well” program?

  15. Stan:
    So what would happen if you were to tell JD Greear that you don’t want to be in one of their share-your-deepest-darkest-secrets-and-cry small groups, or you don’t believe in tithing? Would there be any handwringing about how sensitive you are about being accused and treated as a liability?

    It’s called “TRAITOR! THOUGHT-CRIMINAL!!!”

  16. Justine: A few years ago I read Clara Hilton’s (Jimmy’s mother) entire blog. She was married to a pedophile for 40 years and didn’t know it. It shows how he groomed her and his entire church.

    Successful Pedophiles, Successful Serial Killers, and other Successful Predators are masters of camouflaging what they really are, able to appear at will as an Angel of Light.

    We only hear about the ones who slipped up enough to Get Caught.

  17. Brian:
    Brian,

    Their program is sex offender centered, not child centered.

    Privilege of Pastoral Rank and all that…

    (In Pre-Christian Rome, a Paterfamilias (family/lineage patriarch) had total sexual rights to anything in his family/lineage. Looks like these MenaGAWD are still being Romish…)

  18. Max: So, who are pastors supposed to protect their congregations from? Who is this “wolf” really? Who is this adversary which manifests himself in various ways? Who is this destroyer?

    To the predator pulling an Inside Job, it’s always The Other on the outside.

    In today’s Christianese milieu, HOMOSEXUALS and LIBRULS.
    (And don’t forget HOMOSEXUALS!)

    Misdirection is always an effective weapon in the arsenal. (“J’ACCUSE!”) While all the escorts are off depth-charging the false lead, the REAL torpedoes come in from the other side of the convoy.

  19. As a former pastor, denominational executive, and psychotherapist, I am quelling my desire to write more words than any of you want to read about this topic. Bottom line: sex offenders are NEVER ALLOWED AROUND CHILDREN IN A CHURCH SETTING. Period.

  20. Luckyforward: As a former pastor, denominational executive, and psychotherapist, I am quelling my desire to write more words than any of you want to read about this topic. Bottom line: sex offenders are NEVER ALLOWED AROUND CHILDREN IN A CHURCH SETTING. Period.

    Makes too much sense doesn’t it?! A church leader should never be so open-minded on this matter that his brain falls out! Scripture warns that the church should never be too hasty to lay hands (ordain) a man to preach, lest they share responsibility for his sins. Likewise (IMO), a church should not make accomodations for a pedophile to merge into the congregation so easily, lest they share responsibility for what could be a god-awful sin against a child.

  21. Luckyforward,

    Reference Romans 5:1-5;

    Are they applying this passage to the children? When a child reports that they are being molested, they’re being looked upon as not persevering. But the molester supposedly “repents” and that’s looked upon as a positive, a win?

  22. Sarah,

    I looked at their program on their website. My impression was that they were linking homelessness and predatory predilections.

  23. Brian: I looked at their program on their website. My impression was that they were linking homelessness and predatory predilections.

    It does appear that the person who runs the program is on the registry. I would want to know details about the location of the program… looks like it is of site. The church is open about its existence. It’s an extension of a prison ministry, which many churches do not bother to have despite Bible verses.

    Mainly I would want to know whether participants are lauded in church as repentant role models and put in charge of children’s programs. (My guess is that this is not the case.)

    The mere existence of a prison ministry does not put a church at risk.

    I know somebody who runs a prison Bible study—the dirty work of the church, necessary and merciful. There are very strong rules and boundaries, because most prisoners are eventually released. My friend brings Jesus to the prisoners but does not invite them home when they reenter society. Christians are not required to be naive.

  24. There are experts:

    From the research & work of Roy Hazelwood, FBI profiler:

    “Hazelwood defined the six categories of rapists [pedophile is a rapist]: power-reassurance, power assertive, anger retaliatory, anger excitation, opportunistic and gang. Of the six, anger excitation is by far the most dangerous and the hardest to capture.

    “Hazelwood also offered the theory that there is no cure for pedophilia or sexual sadists. He conducted numerous studies involving sex crimes … [a pedophile is a sexual criminal] He did numerous studies involving the willing victims of sexual sadists (wives and girlfriends) and how sexual sadists appear in everyday life.”

    Roy Hazelwood was also a life-long devout Presbyterian.

  25. Pedophiles can read their Bibles at home. They can watch the church podcast. They can meet with the counselor. But they can no more be near children than an alcoholic should work at a bar.

  26. Abigail: But they can no more be near children than an alcoholic should work at a bar.

    That would make too much sense.
    And we couldn’t have that, now could we?

  27. Sarah: Program? Which program? I’m confused. Thank you for explaining

    I think both Brian and I believe you were referring to the SHIELD ministry. Is that correct? If not, what ministry or program are you concerned about? You expressed a particular reservation about inviting people to volunteer. Is that posing a risk to the congregation?

  28. Stan,

    Now Stan, that’s just a silly question. You would never be allowed to get within 15 feet of JD Greear.

  29. –We recognize that wrestling with the consequences of past actions can be emotionally difficult. We want to reiterate throughout this process that you are offered full forgiveness because of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. We do not want you to live with a sense of shame.

    These people are so naive it’s dangerous. They have absolutely no idea what they are dealing with. They are lending their own consciences and sense of shame to predators who do not possess such things- but who will be glad to help themselves to the offer! “We do not want you to live with a sense of shame” – well you are in luck because, let me break some news to you, they do not! Some people do not feel shame or remorse for their actions. You cannot feel it for them. It is dangerous to impute it.

    I honestly think these people imagine they could reform the devil himself.

    I also think it’s really odd to see such empathetic wording towards pedophiles. The general public would not come up with something like this. It makes me wonder if they have family members or friends in mind?

    What training do they have that they should be making decisions like this? They don’t have the first clue.

  30. I immediately thought of how the charismatic movement, name it and claim it/prosperity doctrine, plays into this process. “If you believe it enough, it will happen.” The sheep in the pasture believe the wolf has changed because he spoke it, he’s healed of his perversion, therefore we must trust in the healing miracles of heaven.
    My teenage son was diagnosed with cancer and passed away three years ago. You don’t realize how saturated the church is with this thought process until you’re in the midst of a crisis. Our church was as mainstream/conservative as you could imagine. We did everything the Bible instructed us to do in regards to healing. The elders laid hands on my son, annointed him with oil, and we prayed for healing. We prayed in earnest, we believed he would be healed, I begged and pleaded, but the healing on this side of heaven didn’t come. Afterwards came the low key condemnation, “we mustn’t have had enough faith, the sins of the father will rest on the child, etc.” These were people who were “solid” Christians uttering this stupidity. I tell you this only to illustrate how this thinking has proliferated traditional thought in the church body. Whether we realize it or not, many of these concepts have saturated our own minds because of memes, living room wall signs, or the cute at’a girl sayings; “God won’t give you more than you can handle.” (Which is BS by the way. If I could handle it on my own, I wouldn’t need Him.)
    The point of this lengthy post is to illustrate just how poisonous this doctrine is to a church. All of this Caring Well crap that makes people feel superior for being “Super Christians” and being the hands and feet of Jesus is nothing more than circumventing His works. Only Jesus can heal and restore, not the church, and certainly not the preachers in them. Just because the church “rehabilitates and restores” the wolf, doesn’t mean it’s so. The wolves know the right words to say and they target people that buy into their weepy false act of repentance. In the meantime, the wolf is looking for the weakest sheep to devour because the shepherd of the flock has puffed himself up with his own sense of pride and arrogance for rehabilitating a wolf and turning him into a vegan.
    We need more discernment in the body of Christ and less pride. If a man has truly repented of molestation we’ll know it. We’ve seen true repentance so rarely that I don’t think we’ll mistake it for anything less than what it truly is; a genuine, healing from the Holy Spirit, not the elders and not the pastor.

  31. I have a question. I can agree that abusers don’t repent – mine hasn’t. What is a victim to do with that?

  32. Ham Sandwich,

    That’s a good question. I think you pray for the truth to be revealed so that the person that needs to repent has a chance for the sin to come to the light. Only when the person has to come face to face with his crime does he stand a chance at repentance. As long as it’s hidden and denied by the perpetrator there’s no repenting. I think in praying for the truth to be revealed you also get a little peace for yourself.
    The hard thing is when the truth remains hidden for an extended time of prayer. I’m still praying for truth to be revealed and it hasn’t come yet. I’m trying to figure out the big picture lessons there for me but I think some of it deals with perseverance and giving God the control (instead of me) over the situation.
    I also know that satan has come to seek, kill, and destroy and he would love to take me down with my frustration over circumstances. So, I think we just pray for truth and try to stay spiritually and mentally healthy. And, most of all, we long for the day when we hear the words “well done good and faithful servant.”
    I take peace in reminding myself that this is the closest to hell that I’m ever going to get. Needless to say, this life is pretty awful and we’ve got eternity to look forward to.

  33. Ham Sandwich,

    I believe that there may be some predators out there who will repent. However, if they have seriously repented this does not mean that they have a sudden cure for their serious psychiatric problem. Which means they are at risk of abusing once again.

    Many in the church actually believe that Jesus can cure a pedophile. But does He? Jesus can cure cancer but many people die from cancer without being cured.

    What does this mean for the church and for you?

    Ham Sandwich’s church should support and provide help for the long term repercussions of being abused.

    The church needs to stop being so naive.They are playing a dangerous game with their church members due to their blind adherence that a pedophile really, really wants to attend their church because they’ve seen the light They have no idea if that is true≥ Pastors and so called biblical counselor can be gullible and easily deceived.

    Finally, find fellowship with others who have ben deeply wounded by abusers. Support one another through this life. As a Christian, I believe these people will be punished severely in the afterlife. They play games here but they will not be able to deceived God when they stand before Him.

    I am so sorry for the pain that you endured.

  34. ewelk66,

    My heart breaks for you. A parent should never have to bury their child. It is the most painful thing I can imagine.

    My daughter survived what was thought to be a fatal brain tumor. As I walked through her disease, I had more people approach me and tell me that they *knew* she would ben healed. My daughter was operated on at the same time(In adjacent OR suites) as a boy operated on for a tumor which is usually curable. I was so jealous of the number of people who prayed for him in Dallas. We were new to the city and had support but the little boys family had enormous support. Thousand and thousands prayed for his healing. That little boy died not long after his surgery.

    Christian people approached me and wanted to be helpful. But they didn’t understand what they didn’t understand. I was told told to high dose my sweet daughter with beta carotene because they had *heard* someone was cured that way. The list of cures was lengthy and silly. Many people do not understand that anecdotal evidence is not sufficient to say that a cure was had by eating lots of carrots. Maybe the person had some other factors that they didn’t know about.

    We are both medical people. I will tell you something that is hard for me to say. I actually did not believe my daughter would survive. Of course I wanted her to survive and was grateful for the prayers. But I am pragmatic and lots of kids die of cancer every day even when they are prayed for, anointed with oil, given lots of carrots, flown to Mexico for injections of mistletoe, etc.

    One of the saddest thing I’ve ever encountered. was a family who did not believe their son (middle school age) would die from a horrendous cancer. They would not let him receive counseling and put signs up all over the room to talks as if the cancer was already gone. One of the parents told me that her cure would bring the oncology people to Jesus.

    One day I sat with him when as his son was not in the room. I was worried for the whole family They believed that she would be cured and that they had to truly believe it and it would happen. He knew my daughter’s story. I asked him “What will you do if she doesn’t get cured?* He became angry and said that my lack of faith was harming his daughter. I then told him that I didn’t believe my daughter would be cured and yet she was. He said it was the true believers prayed that caused her to be cured. He would not listen. His son was going to save all the doctors and nurses and everyone had to believe this

    The hospital staff was worried because the parents would not allow to have counseling. Eventually she died and the family still struggles to the day.

    My prayers are with you.

  35. Ava Aaronson: He did numerous studies involving the willing victims of sexual sadists (wives and girlfriends) and how sexual sadists appear in everyday life.”

    50 Shades of Grey is the FANTASY.
    Hazelwood writes of the reality.

    As for the “willing victims”, I don’t know the formal term of the pathology involved, but the informal term is “Harley Quinn Syndrome”.

    And if the guy in 50 Shades of Grey wasn’t Rich and Powerful, it’d be an episode of Criminal Minds or some True Crime tabloid instead of a best-seller.

  36. ewelk66: The wolves know the right words to say and they target people that buy into their weepy false act of repentance. In the meantime, the wolf is looking for the weakest sheep to devour because the shepherd of the flock has puffed himself up with his own sense of pride and arrogance for rehabilitating a wolf and turning him into a vegan.

    Assuming the “shepherd of the flock” isn’t a wolf himself.
    “AWOOOOOOOO!”

  37. Bookbolter:
    Stan,

    Now Stan, that’s just a silly question. You would never be allowed to get within 15 feet of JD Greear.

    The Great One’s Armorbearers would not only stop you, but probably beat you for your Insubordination. (Assuming said Armorbearers don’t pack heat. Some do.)

  38. ewelk66: We’ve seen true repentance so rarely that I don’t think we’ll mistake it for anything less than what it truly is; a genuine, healing from the Holy Spirit, not the elders and not the pastor.

    The problem is the Holy Spirit has been relegated to the back row in much of the American church. I dare say that if the Holy Spirit was lifted out of the organized church, 95% of the stuff would still go on. We have grieved and quenched the Holy Spirit so much, we seldom experience His power.

  39. ewelk66,

    I’m so sorry that you lost your son so early. My Mom told me once that losing a child, regardless of age, is the hardest thing that can happen to a woman.

  40. HeadlessUnicornGuy: 50 Shades of Grey is the FANTASY.
    Hazelwood writes of the reality.

    Grated, I didn’t read that book because it was super terrible, but in the first movie (which is the only one I saw) there was a lot about consent. (there was also a lot of goofy attempts at making it romantic) That doesn’t happen with most of the people Hazelwood was dealing with.

    I’m not sure if these things should be conflated because the consent part is rather important, as is the living through it part. Oh! I did talk to a psychologist once about one of her patients who mentioned something he fantasized about to her and she checked with the legit BDSM community to find out if it was even remotely ok before counseling him (*it wasnt*).

  41. Lea,

    Observation:

    If a psychologist isn’t able to treat a legitimate issue, then what’s the use of even treating a person.

  42. Dee, I agree with all of that. I do want to specify that what was done to me took place in a non-church setting. I don’t want to provide any more detail as I am not interested in sharing my story publicly.
    I have not told my church; I frankly don’t see any reason to as it was in no way related to them. But for situations where the abuse took place in a church, that church should absolutely provide support to those harmed.

  43. ewelk66: If I could handle it on my own, I wouldn’t need Him.

    I am so very sorry for your son’s passing and for the shocking actions of the leaders at your church.

    Your words above are wonderful: “If I could handle it on my own, I wouldn’t need Him.” This, to me, is the purpose of prayer, whether our hearts break or soar.

    Please forgive me if what follows does not apply. It sounds like the leaders of your church did not know the difference between healing and curing. All of you understandably wanted the same thing, a cure. But healing is not exactly the same thing; healing helps people come to terms with anything that happens after a hardship: sorrow, uncertainty, or joy. When the cure tragically did not happen, your church leaders deprived you of the other parts of healing: mercy, comfort, love, understanding, time, help, acceptance, and sharing of burdens.

    Your family deserved so much more. I truly hope that you have found some peace after so very much suffering and sadness.

  44. dee,

    Thank you so much for sharing your story with me and for what you do here.
    I don’t attend a local church any longer. I’ve found it to be a building full of some of the most venomous, cold, prideful people I’ve ever met. The irony is I’ve never had a problem with people in my secular job the way I have with people in the church. I’m weary of the way that people show up for church, to be seen as a good Christian, but gossip and backstab one another and use prayer chains to spread gossip.
    The Christians that attribute a lack of faith to the death of a child were my final straw with the brick and mortar establishment. I’ve seen people in torment, as you have, because they were led to believe that they only needed to believe to be healed. How do you live with the thought that your faith wasn’t strong enough so your child died? And, where did this doctrine of demons come from that ignores the Bible when it tells us in 1 Peter 1:6-7: “In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.”
    Where does anyone get the idea that we won’t suffer? For all of the healings in the Bible, there were plenty of people perishing at the same time. Christians with cancer die, too. Kids that are innocent, and free from the knowledge of sin, die every single day. I feel so sad for the family you met that was misled by the word of faith/name it and claim it doctrine. I think of Ecclesiastes when it talks about the day of death is better than the day of birth. The only caveat is that I now have a longing for heaven that I didn’t before. I had a glimpse of it when my son passed.
    I appreciate the common bonds and the discerning minds of the people on these comment threads. This is my “church” now a days so thank you from the bottom of my heart for defending the defenseless and standing up for what is right, even when it’s not popular.

  45. ewelk66: I immediately thought of how the charismatic movement, name it and claim it/prosperity doctrine, plays into this process. “If you believe it enough, it will happen.”

    “ABRACADABRA” = “I Say It and IT IS SO!”

  46. ewelk66: Afterwards came the low key condemnation, “we mustn’t have had enough faith, the sins of the father will rest on the child, etc.” These were people who were “solid” Christians uttering this stupidity.

    When I hear something like that, I mentally append:
    “You didn’t have enough FAITH (like MEEEEEEEE!)”
    “The sins of the father will rest upon the child (and I HAVE NONE!)”

    JMJ/Christian Monist also related once how when someone he’d known died of cancer, the number-one reaction was “He smoked, didn’t he?” and during my first prostate cancer scare -I experienced a similar reaction from a Vegan whose reaction to my diagnostic limbo was “You Eat Meat, don’t you? You Gave Yourself Cancer because YOU ATE MEAT!”

    What all the above are doing is waving their More-than-Thou FAITH (or all-Vegan-and-Vitamins diet) as a Magickal shield against cancer. Setting Wards of (personal) Protecton by Virtue Signalling.

  47. Friend,

    I’ve never thought of the differences between a healing and a cure. Thank you for so succinctly defining that and for defining what the heart needs after a hardship.
    I think we have experienced a great deal of healing but more than anything, I feel like I have gained a wealth of compassion and understanding for the hurting. Particularly those that have been hurt by the church. I’m thankful that my faith was deep enough to stay rooted, although I will admit I’ve been shaken and left wondering “why” for a prolonged period of time.
    Thank you for your caring words and your obvious compassion for people.

  48. ewelk66: I don’t attend a local church any longer. I’ve found it to be a building full of some of the most venomous, cold, prideful people I’ve ever met. The irony is I’ve never had a problem with people in my secular job the way I have with people in the church. I’m weary of the way that people show up for church, to be seen as a good Christian, but gossip and backstab one another and use prayer chains to spread gossip.

    I’m glad you’ve found freedom from the load of horse poo-poo they teach.
    I’d rather rub elbows with a kind and gentle atheist than I would a cruel Christian who’s been stripped of his or her humanity.

  49. Muff Potter:
    I’d rather rub elbows with a kind and gentle atheist than I would a cruel Christian who’s been stripped of his or her humanity.

    I’ve said those same words myself.

  50. In a sick way the whole idea of not wanting the rso to feel shame makes sense. I mean, there are local churches here that do not want folks to feel shame over other things the Bible says are sexual no no’s. We long ago gave up the moral high ground on sloth, on greed, on gluttony and indeed on most sins. Why are we shocked now?

    We can just slap a label on any deviancy, label it as genetic or due to nurture, excuse it, give it a special support group, and PUT MORE BUTTS ON THE PEW CHAIRS.

    The money changers are in charge.

  51. ewelk66: The Christians that attribute a lack of faith to the death of a child were my final straw with the brick and mortar establishment.

    This usually brings to mind for me Daniel 3 and the three who refused to bow to the king’s idol. Their answer appears to acknowledge that God can deliver them physically, but that He might not choose to do so for whatever reason. Regrettably, there are a number of professed Christians who don’t check Scripture with Scripture let that enter into the equation. Sadly, they can then turn that into a faith litmus test or go the route of those who automatically chalked up the blind man’s condition to either his sin or family sin.

  52. I read in school, there were no New Testament versus that called sinners to feel guilty. We are, of course, adjudicated guilty. But it doesn’t appear that NT Scriptures call upon sinners to feel guilty for what sins they have committed.

    I could be wrong.

  53. Brian: Lea,
    Observation:
    If a psychologist isn’t able to treat a legitimate issue, then what’s the use of even treating a person.

    I don’t think you understood my story? She did treat him of course, she just consulted with someone on one little thing.

  54. senecagriggs,

    Long time, no hear, still typical. Yep- you are wrong. A true human with a heart should feel shame for raping little kids. But it would not surprise me if you never feel shame. You haven’t really changed and you are still in moderation because you have no heart.

  55. ewelk66,

    I am so sorry for the death of your son. The sucker punch of having your faith questioned on top of the tragedy you were already experiencing is unconscionable.

    You comment, “If I could handle it on my own, I wouldn’t need Him.” After a missed miscarriage, I found a small measure of comfort in the story of Jesus weeping at Lazarus’ grave. He wasn’t weeping because Lazarus was dead (he’d already known this for several days). He was weeping because, after seeing the grief of Lazarus’ loved ones, Jesus was greatly troubled and his spirit was moved, and he WEPT. In spite of knowing the happy ending just around the corner, Jesus WEPT. He sees us in our grief, and he does not question our faith or give us empty platitudes. He weeps with us.

    I hope you and your family are finding peace and comfort.

  56. senecagriggs: I read in school, there were no New Testament versus that called sinners to feel guilty. We are, of course, adjudicated guilty. But it doesn’t appear that NT Scriptures call upon sinners to feel guilty for what sins they have committed.

    I’m not getting your point. Are you saying that child molesters should merrily do as they will and feel no guilt about it?

    The point is that sociopaths and psychopaths do not feel guilt, so there is no point in trying to assuage their guilt and offer them compassion. You will just be taken advantage of. And people with normal, functioning consciences do not rape children.

  57. Ham Sandwich: I have a question. I can agree that abusers don’t repent – mine hasn’t. What is a victim to do with that?

    Well, this is just my opinion and experience: all we can do is accept it and not let it hold us back from moving on and healing. They are what they are. This emptiness within them is something they’ve carried within them for life and we do not have the power to undo it. You might as well ask for a lost limb to regrow.

  58. We grew rather fond of One Day At A Time (specifically, the recent remake). AWWBA, the character of Schneider is a recovered alcoholic; many of Schneider’s nuances are based around actor Todd Grinnell’s own experiences of alcohol addiction.

    There’s a moment in (I think) series 2 when Schneider is recounting a story to Penelope. It goes something like this:

    So it’s 4th of July 2011. I’d been sober for a while; so I thought I’d celebrate, with a beer. Woke up three days later in an alley…

    That was the day I finally accepted: I can’t have alcohol, or drugs. Ever.

    It seems to me that an abuser who actually repents will probably have to grasp something fundamental. Behind all the big displays of emotion and remorse, which a man who is both gullible and a pastor will seize on as “repentance”, there’s got to be a cold realisation like the one above. It’s not that “they did something bad” (although that, too). It’s that they are an abusive person. That’s likely to affect how quickly, and how often, they demand forgiveness and second chances. (“God’s forgiven me, and so should you” is a demand for free forgiveness.) It’s also likely to affect how readily they allow gullible men in pulpits to cover up for them.

  59. Ham Sandwich:
    I have a question. I can agree that abusers don’t repent – mine hasn’t. What is a victim to do with that?

    I’ve never experienced sexual abuse, as a child or as an adult, so my perspective on this is drawn from my experiences of years of bullying in an authoritarian church from which my wife and I were ultimately excommunicated by the CEO. This was accompanied by false accusations of divisiveness, and even of being accompanied by a demonic spirit that was destroying the marriages of those I came into contact with (!). The said CEO is also unrepentant, and always has been. (Nor were we his only targets, I have to say.)

    I’m going to give an answer that may appear bizarre at first, but I promise that this not because I’m trying to be shocking or offensive. It’s because I really can’t think of a better way of putting it, and because it highlights an area in which I’ve found christian cultures and communities to be very weak.

    Your question: What’s a victim to do about an unrepentant abuser?
    My answer: A victim can’t do anything.

    What I mean is: The ultimate power of someone who is made a target, is to forgive. The very last thing this will ever mean is: accept defeat, drop it, and slink away to hide and live a defeated life. Jesus, for instance, prayed: Father, forgive them; not, Father, just drop it and move on, and hope the humans don’t call you ‘bitter’. Jesus forgave, not because he was beaten anyway and had no choice, but because he could. Even given every possible unfair advantage over him, his enemies together were helpless to stop him from loving them. Nor does it mean that forgiving someone for a crime lets them escape justice or be free to go and target someone else.

    The one who forgives is (at least insofar as the act of forgiveness goes) greater, and in a higher position, than the person they forgive. Forgiveness is an act of rule, judgement and authority; not just anyone can do it. Your abuser can’t “forgive” you, for instance, because (he?) has no authority to do it, and would be meddling in things beyond (him?).

    The thing is that a victim is someone who has had power, authority and standing taken from them. There are a million ways in which this can happen, and it usually involves their being cheated or outnumbered. Christian culture is particularly weak when it comes to restoring victims to a place of dignity so that we cease to be victims. Christianity demands that victims forgive, while doing nothing to enable them to forgive.

    The best I can do here (and it’s not much) is to recognise that authority to forgive, in your case, rests with you.

  60. Nick Bulbeck: The best I can do here (and it’s not much) is to recognise that authority to forgive, in your case, rests with you.

    Your comment, IMO, is profound.

  61. dee: Long time, no hear, still typical.

    Seneca’s also become Internet Monk’s resident troll.
    Completely in character there as well.

  62. Nick Bulbeck,

    As one who was abused sexually, physically, and mentally Nick is spot on here.

    I was never completely released from my abuser until I forgave him.

  63. SiteSeer,

    My abuser was dead when I forgave him. If he was still alive, I wouldn’t have Thanksgiving dinner with him. If I saw him around kids, I would notify their parents. And if there was no statute of limitations, I’d file charges. I guess my definition would to be no longer angry at a person, but I wouldn’t stop being discerning.

  64. My abuser, while not physically dead, is dead to me. When angry feelings come (not so often now), I remind myself that it is pointless to be mad at a dead person. I can then redirect my energy somewhere it won’t be wasted.