The Caring Well Discussion Page: This Will Remain Open Until I Return on 10/15. The Conference Dates: 10/3-10/5 and Special Thanks to SBC Voices.


The Apostle Paul by El Greco: Wikimedia

“The world is indeed full of peril and in it there are many dark places.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings


My husband, one daughter and I are going to Greece and Turkey on 10/4 to do a tour called “In the Footsteps of the Apostle Paul”  with the Christian Medical Dental Associations. During our absence some family members will be living at the house, caring for the pugs, along with extra dogs. The outside renovation will continue so that, at any given time, there will be lots of people working and caring for the house while dogs bark and run around. It will be a madhouse. As a reminder to a few scoundrels, my family is, at all times, locked and loaded.

During this time, I’ve arranged for some prewritten posts that will appear as if by magic. GBTC will approve comments. I will begin regularly posting again on 10/16.


SBC Voices’ Todd Benkertngets it.

Today, I was pleasantly surprised when SBC Voices posted Before the Conference – Acknowledging problems surrounding #CaringWell by Todd Benkert. The men over at this website are staunch supporters of the SBC which makes this response even more meaningful.

Here are some quotes from the post.

Perhaps the biggest reason for the pushback is that it seems that some prominent survivors who have been sounding the alarm in the SBC for years have been left out of the process. The stories of survivors like Tiffany Thigpen, Christa Brown and others should be common knowledge among Baptists, but they are not – Why are they not being given a platform when they have been sounding the alarm of clergy abuse in the SBC for decades? Why are we only hearing from a select few survivors? The most obvious answer seems to be that some voices are not “safe”.  Some survivors’ stories look bad for prominent and “important” leaders and flagship churches. Other stories don’t carry the happy ending of finding hope in Christ or having a deep love for the church. Many of the survivors of SBC clergy abuse have left the church, left the faith, or adopted progressive (liberal) views of Christianity. These “nones, dones, [and] gones” have important messages for the church too even if they don’t fit our desired narrative or aim. Christa Brown speculates “that organizers opted to invite survivors whose stories were deemed ‘risk-free for the SBC.’”

Now, many prominent people have come to the defense of the speakers, especially survivors, against the “designated survivor” idea—that is, that only speakers with the right story have been designated to speak.

…We must care well for all survivors, even those who have left us. We must hear from all survivors, even those whose journeys have taken them on paths we don’t like.

I used to think that I had little in common with those at SBC Voices. However, they have continued to surprise me over this past year. I was delighted to meet a few of them in Birmingham when they showed up at the Rally. Dwight McKissic and William Thornton both came and have also expressed support on some issues that we care about.

Thank you!

The ERLC Caring Well Conference: October 3-5. There will be live streaming and videos posts afterwards.

I will be traipsing around the area in which Paul spent his time on his missionary journeys. We start by landing at Thessaloniki Airport in Macedonia. I will be posting some pictures from my trip. Not bad for a woman who was called an ex-evangelical by one of the survivors.

I will keep this page open so that people can post comments about any of the talks or scuttlebutt making the rounds. I have asked a few friends to text me if anything interesting happens. I would suggest that if anyone wants to hear just one talk, listen to Boz Tchividjian. He always approaches things from a different angle.

Here is a link to the schedule.

Livestream the event for free at this page.

You must fill out info but it’s short. Once you sign up, you will be directed to the simulcast

Permanent posting of some of the talks.

After the conference there will be a a way to link to all of the main talks. If someone will put the link to that in a comment, I will make sure GBTC adds it to the page.

Let me leave you with this wish. I pray that the SBC will apologize to Tiffany Thigpen, Christa Brown, Anne Marie Miller and Jules Woodson.

PS: If some SBC folks are thinking about flying Matt Chandler in at the last minute, I would suggest that they reconsider. It will not go over well.


Comments

The Caring Well Discussion Page: This Will Remain Open Until I Return on 10/15. The Conference Dates: 10/3-10/5 and Special Thanks to SBC Voices. — 169 Comments

  1. “I used to think that I had little in common with those at SBC Voices.”

    I have mixed feelings about the intentions of the folks over at SBC Voices. A simple rule has never let me down “When in doubt, don’t.”

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  2. I posted the link to the Houston Chronicle article about the 700 victims in the SBC. Want to know why this hasn’t outraged people? Here is a comment I received when I said that clergy should not be allowed to pastor (like counselors) if they have a relationship with a congregant (power imbalance). I wonder if he would feel the same if his daughter was one of the abused……
    “ 20yrs, 700 hundred out of over 37k SBC churches in the US. Let’s break this down, 37000 churches, on the conservative side 100 members per church. So your percentage of people being involved in sexual abuse each month in an SBC church is about 0.000079%. I’m not condoning or down playing the abuse these people felt, I hope they’ve found peace and have been able to move past the tragic situation they endured. What I’m saying is there are much more pressing matters for our government law makers to pursue.

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  3. Max:
    “I used to think that I had little in common with those at SBC Voices.”

    I have mixed feelings about the intentions of the folks over at SBC Voices.A simple rule has never let me down “When in doubt, don’t.”

    Max: I do not trust the folks at SBC Voices at all. Some of them might be nice, but so what. Unless things have changed they continue to support the subordination of women; Therefore i find their concerns about this major decades long issue disingenuous. This is just a PR stunt IMO.

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  4. I won’t be streaming the Caring Well conference, as I’m on a two-week break, and may not be around much to follow up on this comment. But I felt it was important to add some reflections that have come together after reading Todd Benkert’s article this morning.

    The way my brain typically works, I’m tuned in to analyze, compare/contrast, and spot hypocrisies and ironies (things that show up together, but that really shouldn’t) and paradoxes (things that show up together and seem like they don’t go together, but they really do). In practical terms, this means I find myself immersed in cognitive dissonance and emotional ambivalence until i feel like I’ve gotten the ethical equivalences figured out of what should and shouldn’t be.

    I’ve been seeing some social media comments about how the men leading the way in the Caring Well conference are those who want to turn the SBC ship around to a better stance on issues involving abuse, and better support for abuse survivors. It’s taken weeks to verbalize some of what has made me uncomfortable with such statements.

    A key issue is that these same men — and/or the SBC entities that they lead — have recently done things that contradict the essence of Caring Well. Key example is that both J.D. Greear and ERLC have recently endorsed and promoted the new book by Matt Chandler, who has earned a bad track record for his failures in leading The Village Church in relating with various kinds of abuse survivors and in alleged failures in protecting the flock from reported abusers.

    It would be easier to accept the notion that these SBC leaders are acting in good faith about abuse issues and Caring Well if they issued statements that apologized for having messed up regarding promotion of Matt Chandler and his book about dealing with cancer, and also took public steps to demonstrate remedies to broken trust. Failure to do this, after numerous pleas and challenges, seems to say they don’t care about entrustment, except perhaps from their insider constituents.

    And it seems clear the constituencies of concern exclude those being left out. If there is no will to respond to the legitimate criticisms coming from survivors, advocates, and whistle-blowers on these kinds of specific situations and the overall SBC systems, then it keeps coming across as just about public relations — not about resolving the problems underneath these hypocrisies and ironies.

    That’s just one prominent and current situation that illustrates the problem. Similar ones been surfacing for months, as captured well by Todd Benkert in his SBC Voices article.

    I’m not against conferences like Caring Well, or related training resources and events. We need to grapple with the personal accounts, facts, statistics, practical problems, trauma-informed solutions, and more. In fact, adopting “the art of the long view” (i.e., strategic foresight / “futuring”) includes introducing each generation to these kinds of perennial problems that require both intervention and prevention. It also involves equipping each generation to know how to respond to the individuals affected with whom they connect, and in understanding their own cultural times so they can discern what is best to do about institutions infected. Such perpetual problems require more than a one-off “solution.”

    Though needed in each generation, none of that teaching or training fully resolves systemic problems. Those require far more comprehensive thinking — and include considering constructive solutions to repair past damages, plus avoiding or resolving destructive consequences for past-present-future misguided actions, intentional avoidance of action, ignorance, and negligence.

    After tracking statements and actions from various SBC entities much of this year, I’m not convinced they’ve been taking care of systemic issues. The kind of futurist I was trained to be don’t tell organization leaders what to do; we take organizational research to identify problems, cultural trends to identify barriers and possibilities, and then create scenarios — tell stories — that reflect our research but focus on the emotional impact and social-relational-organizational consequences of making choices and taking directions that are either more wise or more foolish. Then we turn to the stakeholders and shareholders and ask them what they see as their *preferable* future: Go from the “what if” questions to the “what we choose to do” answers.

    If the SBC system leadership tier and/or local church leaders leave the Caring Well conference thinking this takes care of things — instead of this just *starts* to turn their trajectory — they may have some nasty system surprises coming their way. Someday I may post a few realistic scenarios of what I can foresee happening …

    But, for the time being, I hope this conference serves as a start-up to motivate and inform those who will support survivors in recovery and work to prevent perpetrators from having access to potential victims.

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  5. “PS: If some SBC folks are thinking about flying Matt Chandler in at the last minute, I would suggest that they reconsider. It will not go over well.”

    Ya’ mean they’re not interested in Texas-artisan-beef in Thessa-ma-whatcha-callit?

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  6. Nuttshell,

    “I’m not condoning or down playing the abuse these people felt, I hope they’ve found peace and have been able to move past the tragic situation they endured. What I’m saying is there are much more pressing matters for our government law makers to pursue.”–some guy
    ++++++++++++++

    so, he’s not condoning sexual abuse…. (fancy that)

    and he says he’s not downplaying the abuse these people ‘felt’ (since abuse is only ‘a feeling’, a phantom-pain sort of thing, where nothing actually happened),

    …all the while he’s downplaying abuse.

    clearly this guy doesn’t have 2 brain cells to rub together.

    i have a feeling there are lots just like him.

    (deep, deep sigh)

    pretty sure guys him will miss the cut of survival of the fittest and thankfully mutate away

    (wish i could live long enough to see it)

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  7. brad/futuristguy,

    “the men leading the way in the Caring Well conference …

    A key issue is that these same men — and/or the SBC entities that they lead — have recently done things that contradict the essence of Caring Well. Key example is that both J.D. Greear and ERLC have recently endorsed and promoted the new book by Matt Chandler…”
    ++++++++++++++

    ha… for sure these men will be missing the cut for survival of the fittest.

    (a satisfying thought, and hope for the future)

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  8. The problem with the conference in a nut-shell:
    “the MEN leading the way in the Caring Well conference”.

    And I am male. But until we get back to a pastor being a servant of the church, and not its leader (dictator?), but a servant of the members and accountable to the members, then a church will always be a target for an abuser seeking sheep to abuse.

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  9. Max: No doubt about it.The whole thing smells like false concern, fake humility, and agenda.Reminds me of TV preachers who cry without tears.

    Why does the SBC now allow an article associated with this conference?

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  10. For myself, I am taking a wait and see approach regarding the Caring Well conference. It is well, good, and right to be critical, but it is also well, good, and right to do so with evidence in hand, not aspersions.

    Dee, have a good trip.

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  11. Nuttshell: What I’m saying is there are much more pressing matters for our government law makers to pursue.

    Once you start doing the math like this guy? YTA.

    Also, how ridiculous to act like the cases uncovered in one article are the sum total of the problem rather than the tip of the iceberg…

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  12. Magistos:
    For myself, I am taking a wait and see approach regarding the Caring Well conference.It is well, good, and right to be critical, but it is also well, good, and right to do so with evidence in hand, not aspersions.

    Dee, have a good trip.

    I will own my aspersions. I have a long history with the SBC and sadly know how the male SBC leaders work. I hope these male leaders surprise me.

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  13. elastigirl: and he says he’s not downplaying the abuse these people ‘felt’ (since abuse is only ‘a feeling’, a phantom-pain sort of thing, where nothing actually happened),

    Oooh, good catch.

    I hate people who reduce ‘i hate this terrible action that happened’ to someone just ‘feeling’ something. Not to mention that I hate the entire concept these guys have on top of it that feelings don’t matter. They do.

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  14. Magistos,

    “evidence in hand, not aspersions”
    ++++++++++++++

    look at the bigger picture.

    evidence #1: SBC leaders close their eyes to avoid taking responsibility.

    those survivors whose stories are especially damaging to the SBC are excluded. they are not merely excluded, they are treated as if they are invisible. people whose assault and subsequent treatment expressly requires a profound apology and reparations, according to any moral standard. but silence.

    it would cost too much.

    evidence #2: these victims represent the testcase for churches of what not to do. instead of making things right, the SBC is co-opting the victims’ life destruction for profit.

    the organization that enabled their rape, molestation, and shunning is now exploiting them for PR, and to make money and fame.

    these victims have worked for years to try to bring about change in the SBC. Others have recognized them, but the SBC has ignored them. Now the SBC is hijacking their efforts. They are the ones who laid the groundwork for this conference over many years. They have been used, are being used.

    books are being hawked for profit. “authors” (or at least those who put their names after the word “By” on book covers) have seized the opportunity to produce books so people can make a name for themselves, and so they and the publishers can make money, using the occasion of the rape and molestation of others to sell.

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  15. Lea,

    elastigirl,

    I may not be as old as the others here at only 45, and a male, but I know the SBC as well. Born and raised in it until I left it in 2016. The good old boy network lives and breathes there, for sure.

    But, for myself, a two handed approach is better. There needs to be people calling them out – you, and other here do that well. But there also needs to be encouragement for those who are attempting to change the system from within. A need to hope that there are yet good people trying. Those people are facing an uphill battle from within, and don’t need to be told they are not going far enough. They probably know it, but don’t feel safer going any further. That’s a whole other debate right there.

    My strength is not anger, and confrontation. I’m not good at it -I get angry, mean, and personal. It consumes me. I sin. I can be angry privately, but publicly, I can’t go there. I’m sorry. Consolation, intelligence gathering, empathy, protection, and encouraging, that’s what I can do. Is a medic’s duty any less honorable than the soldier on point?

    So for me, I am here to encourage you all in your fight, commiserate, learn, Observe, communicate, strengthen, help where I can, and to also try to strengthen those working from within. When you fight disease, you attack it, but also try to rally the body’s own defenses to help.

    Elastigirl, I agree with both of your points. Completely. But when we go on the attack, let’s do it for what actually HAPPENED, not expectation. That’s why *I* am taking a wait and see approach to what actually is SAID at the conference.

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  16. mot: I will own my aspersions. I have a long history with the SBC and sadly know how the male SBC leaders work.

    My SBC history spans 70+ years. I’ve only known a few SBC national leaders whose primary agenda was the Great Commission; the elite have always had some self-centered something up their sleeve. I hope this batch is different, but they are primarily New Calvinists and we know that they are not overly female-friendly. I’m not an asperser out to attack the reputation or integrity of someone or something … unless their prior behavior justifies it. I fully expect these folks to meet, sling a few tears and promises, present their best PR faces to the media, sing kumbaya, and return home to do business as usual.

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  17. Max: My SBC history spans 70+ years. I’ve only known a few SBC national leaders whose primary agenda was the Great Commission; the elite have always had some self-centered something up their sleeve. I hope this batch is different, but they are primarily New Calvinists and we know that they are not overly female-friendly. I’m not an asperser out to attack the reputation or integrity of someone or something … unless their prior behavior justifies it. I fully expect these folks to meet, sling a few tears and promises, present their best PR faces to the media, sing kumbaya, and return home to do business as usual.

    Magistos can take a wait and see approach. I wait no longer-and those that want to call what I type an asperser can have at it. I does not bother me. I have zero confidence in the SBC to do the right thing by women. They have not for decades. The SBC considers women subordinate to men-need I say more about the SBC leaders concern about women?

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  18. On another note, I fence epee, in addition to practicing Tae Kwon Do, and Aikido.

    Don’t look at my wait and see as passive. Look at it as “don’t waste your shot”, observe the opponent, and strike their weakness. It’s surgical and controlled.

    Aspersions might not be the right word, and if I offended, I apologize, and ask your forgiveness. I don’t believe in giving people ammo by saying things too soon. I’m not fast with retorts, so I avoid talking/typing myself into a corner. 😉

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  19. My comment appears to have gone into the ether, I’ll try again.

    As an aside, I practice Epee, Tae Kwon Do, and Aikido. Those shape my ethos, so knowing that, please don’t think of my “wait and see” approach as passive. It most definitely isn’t. It’s observe, study, attack weakness, not wasting your shot, wait waiting for the whites of their eyes.

    I would like to extend my apologies if I offended with my use of the word aspersion. I ask your forgiveness. It was not my intent to judge anyone here, but an attempt to explain attacking what actually happens. I’m not quick with a retort most of the time, so I avoid talking or typing myself into a corner where I might have to take back something. 😉

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  20. Magistos: I may not be as old as the others here at only 45

    I’m younger than you. My personal preference is to leave an organization but I fully support people trying to fix it from within.

    I question if that even is possible when patriarchy and good old boyism reigns over principle, though. This conference is really irrelevant to that point.

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  21. Magistos:” *I* am taking a wait and see approach to what actually is SAID at the conference.”

    My response to this is basically singing My Fair Lady in my head.

    Words words words
    i’m so sick of words
    i get words all day through first from him now from you
    is that all you blighters can do?

    Show me. If this conference is willing to change, show me.

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  22. I never attended an SBC church that I know of. From ages 11 to 13 I attended a Baptist church. Unsure of which conference. As a survivor of abuse I can tell you this. Every time it looked like someone would be intervening then didn’t, my heart just sank further. To the guys at the top, victims and survivors are just numbers and percentages. But, maybe, just maybe, the people in the pews and the pastors at the non mega churches will start taking action. I hope this isn’t another false start for those kids waiting for someone to take them out of their hell on earth.

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  23. Magistos: Julie Andrews is a national treasure, by the way.

    Actually, I’m seeing Audrey Hepburn.

    Oh, and I’m 45 myself, so you’re not the only younger one around here. I appreciate your magnanimity, even as I completely understand the scepticism and cynicism of everyone else, which I tend to share.

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  24. Magistos,

    Thanks for the interaction.

    First, i think you’d be surprised at the age range here. (And for my own comfort, i’ll clarify I’m about your age.)
    ————–

    “But there also needs to be encouragement for those who are attempting to change the system from within. A need to hope that there are yet good people trying. Those people are facing an uphill battle from within, and don’t need to be told they are not going far enough.”
    ++++++++++++

    there’s tension between staying (despite ethical disagreement) in order to bring change from within, and leaving because ethical disagreement does not permit one to stay.

    here are my thoughts. i can already hear the retort ‘cynical’ (not necessarily from you).
    on the contrary, they are realistic, based on a lifetime of observation:

    as i see it, a professional christian is one who rationalizes away ethical problems of monetizing ministry on the backs of donations of hard-working people sacrificially given.

    as well as rationalizing away ethical problems of ministry tax exemptions (the community surrounding the church and its pastors pays their share of public services which professional christians don’t pay yet enjoy and rely on. it would be illuminating to see an accounting of that.)

    to be a professional christian means, even to small extent, that they turn off their conscience. (or else their critical thinking skills aren’t running on all cylinders – money sort of shuts that off anyway)

    so, getting back to whether to stay or leave:

    when a professional christian stays in the organization to work to bring change from within, i expect them to be conservative on where the point is to speak out and take a stand. once they reach that point, i am dubious that they will do anything that will jeopardize their paycheck and their career. I expect that playing it safe wins the day.

    why shouldn’t these questions be posed to them?

    could you be doing more? are you going far enough? have you sold parts of your soul for your paycheck and career? do you have the courage of your convictions?

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  25. elastigirl,

    “why shouldn’t these questions be posed to them?

    could you be doing more? are you going far enough? have you sold parts of your soul for your paycheck and career? do you have the courage of your convictions?”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    and on the flipside, i need to be open to being persuaded otherwise.

    (i’m not easily persuaded.)

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  26. This relates to the theme of the post and what elastgirl said about protecting the paycheck. At the small SBC churches, are the pastors bivocational? I remember someone mentioning that SBC member churches had some sort of retirement stipend or package for pastors. How much is that worth for the pastor of a small SBC church?

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  27. Brian,

    Brian: This relates to the theme of the post and what elastgirl said about protecting the paycheck. At the small SBC churches, are the pastors bivocational? I remember someone mentioning that SBC member churches had some sort of retirement stipend or package for pastors. How much is that worth for the pastor of a small SBC church?

    Most small SBC pastors are bivocational and their churches would not be able to offer many retirement options.

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  28. Long known as the SBC Annuity Board, now has trendy name ‘Guidestone Financial Resources’ (also offers church liability insurance, etc):

    http://www.bpnews.net/50752/guidestone-to-mark-100th-anniversary-at-sbc

    “DALLAS (BP) — One hundred years ago, messengers at the Southern Baptist Convention in Hot Springs, Ark., created a Board of Ministerial Relief and Annuities, which today has become a $15 billion financial services organization known as GuideStone Financial Resources.”

    “John D. Rockefeller Sr….along with his son, John D. Rockefeller Jr., contributed almost $1 million dollars to help establish the ministry of GuideStone”

    “Mission:Dignity [is] the GuideStone ministry that provides financial assistance for retired ministers and their widows near the poverty line”

    https://www.missiondignity.org/

    “Since 1918, GuideStone Financial Resources has been on a ‘Mission’ to provide ‘Dignity’ to retired Southern Baptist ministers, workers and their widows…Many served small, rural churches that paid only modest salaries and couldn’t afford to contribute to their pastors’ retirement.”

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  29. mot: Most small SBC pastors are bivocational and their churches would not be able to offer many retirement options.

    Yes, most of SBC’s 45,000+ churches have less than 200 members. Some of the most faithful servants of God in SBC life (including the best pastor teachers IMO) serve in obscure places on a bi-vocational basis, working full-time secular jobs to support their families. They represent the best of SBC leaders, not the mega-elites who manipulate their way into denominational leadership. SBC is an upside down world in many ways … but at the end of the day, the first shall be last and the last shall be first.

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  30. Brian: I remember someone mentioning that SBC member churches had some sort of retirement stipend or package for pastors. How much is that worth for the pastor of a small SBC church?

    Monthly groceries or the electric bill, maybe.

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  31. elastigirl: when a professional christian stays in the organization to work to bring change from within, i expect them to be conservative on where the point is to speak out and take a stand.

    We also have people who want to fix their denomination, but are not, as you say, ‘professional’ christians, ie not getting paid by the church (which is I presume what you meant?).

    They may have social ties, or emotional ones, or maybe they just think it would be better to stay and provide a voice and try to make things better. I don’t actually think that’s a bad thing. It has potential to help at least. I agree there absolutely is a tension between staying and fixing and leaving and withdrawing your support. That becomes more complicated when you’re getting a paycheck, but even when you’re not it’s not always an easy answer and that’s why i try to not judge people’s decisions on this too harshly.

    The kids who are being raised in these churches don’t have any choice. I think it’s legitimate for adults to try to stick around and attempt to encourage the denomination/churches to protect them whether it be through education, advocacy, or awareness. What I am skeptical about is whether it will actually work with the leadership in the SBC now, but it’s possible it will work in some individual churches and on some individual pastors and maybe that’s something at least? IDK.

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  32. Lea,

    “The kids who are being raised in these churches don’t have any choice. I think it’s legitimate for adults to try to stick around and attempt to encourage the denomination/churches to protect them whether it be through education, advocacy, or awareness.”
    +++++++++++++++

    yes, i see that. that’s not unreasonable. i guess i can be persuaded fairly easily by reason. (it’s good to have ideas challenged. helps us refine our views.)

    i think it’s not hard to become overly attached to an institution, or be hornswoggled (i looked it up — that’s how you spell it — or maybe i’m the last to know) into staying out of guilt or fear of the sky falling. it’s not hard to not be able to leave, even when that is a better option. (i like the double negative)

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  33. I’m watching the live stream. You will know when an church body is truly trying to repent and fix a problem when they quit trying to sell stuff during intermission and quit with the “show” of so called worship teams and turn the place into a house of prayer! So far in my opinion it’s just more of the same old stuff . Can’t they break away from performing for 1 single time?

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  34. Lea: My personal preference is to leave an organization but I fully support people trying to fix it from within.

    I question if that even is possible when patriarchy and good old boyism reigns over principle, though.

    Agreed. If the leaders aren’t on board with wanting the changes, ESPECIALLY if a woman is making the suggestions, staying will either not be an option or will be extremely draining.

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  35. Nuttshell: Commenter: “So your percentage of people being involved in sexual abuse each month in an SBC church is about 0.000079%.”

    Translation: “Our rape rates are impressively low.” Makes me wonder what crime would get this guy’s attention.

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  36. I wonder if the leaders of the SBC have really sat down and considered what has happened to the catholic church? There was a time when a bishop did a damage assessment and said that if you take care of this abuse situation now, it will cost you far less- just do the right thing. They ignored him and now the church has paid untold millions and lost a significant amount of its parishioners. Could it be that the protestant church may have its own day of reckoning?

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  37. Todd Benkert: If you are not aware, SBC Voices is a blog written by a variety of people, mostly smaller church pastors. We have no connection to any SBC entity. I myself pastor a small church in Indiana and do not serve on any SBC board or entity.

    How does that change the narrative that the SBC has ignored this major issue for years? The SBC has and does subordinate women. Women such as Christa Brown have tried for years to tell her story of abuse. Why the concern now and your post right before this conference. I for one view this as PR. I have waited for years for the SBC to allow women to use their God given talents including preaching but the men in the SBC twist the scriptures to subordinate women.

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  38. Muff Potter: HA!
    They’d converge on said church like the Empire to the Hoth system.

    The SBC leaders have shown for decades how they feel about women, IMO they are not going to change. Whatever you would call it-it is baked in. A woman preaching really upsets the SBC boys IMO.

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  39. Lance: Could it be that the protestant church may have its own day of reckoning?

    Some Protestant denominations have tried for decades to prevent abuse rather than cover it up. Churchgoers know, or can find out, which ones are having a scandal. Nowhere is completely safe, though, and the amount of abuse casts a shadow over the whole faith. (The condition I impose on myself: I should not go if I’m unwilling to be assertive and vigilant.)

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  40. mot: The SBC leaders have shown for decades how they feel about women, IMO they are not going to change.

    No they will not change.
    And as a result, they’ll go the way of the T-Rex at the close of the Jurassic Age.

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  41. Lea: Words words words
    i’m so sick of words
    i get words all day through first from him now from you
    is that all you blighters can do?

    Show me. If this conference is willing to change, show me.

    This is so perfect! (And I’m going to be hearing it all night!) All these blighters are ever willing to offer is an endless supply of words. Words do not signify caring well. Caring well demands that wrongs be met with action, proaction, restitution and the repentance that so-called religious leaders claim to know so much about. Yet so rarely practice.

    We don’t want your celebrity creating, money making word conferences – we want change.

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  42. mot,

    How does that change the narrative that the SBC has ignored this major issue for years?

    It doesn’t. I chose to write this piece to give wider voice to the concerns many of you have been sharing and which I share with you. I’m not asking anyone to trust me. I made my statement about the blog for clarity as we sometimes are mistaken for being an official arm of the SBC. All opinions in any article with my name on it are mine alone.

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  43. Official SBC organs are Baptist Press and ‘SBC Life’

    “SBC LIFE is published by the Executive Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention”

    http://www.sbclife.net/article/1500/disputing-sex-abuse-claims

    There is also the podcast ‘SBC This Week’ that’s being given denominational imprimatur, as its hosts have been hired to do PR for the SBC.

    Baptist Press: [Jonathan Howe] is also co-host of ‘SBC This Week’, a weekly podcast he and Amy Whitfield…have produced since June 2015. [Ronnie] Floyd noted that SBC This Week will soon become the official podcast of the Executive Committee.”

    https://sbcthisweek.com/episodes/

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  44. I did see on facebook there was some sort of beth moore clip re abuse and complementarianism, and I sort of listened but not closely. I think the jist was that sin causes abuse but comp is bad about addressing it. Just fyi if anyone is curious.

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  45. Lea: I think the jist was that sin causes abuse but comp is bad about addressing it. Just fyi if anyone is curious.

    It’s always the old “Blame it on the Bossa Nova” (sin) thingy.
    God forbid that it just be a case of misplaced human integrity and lack of common sense.

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  46. On a complete tangent, but related to the picture at the top of the post, I’ve always thought “El Greco” was an odd name. Maybe I should change my handle to “El Angloscotto”.

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  47. TS00: This is so perfect! (And I’m going to be hearing it all night!) All these blighters are ever willing to offer is an endless supply of words.

    Spiritual Words, Biblical Words, Party Line Words.

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  48. Dee – Thanks, I appreciate it. The page reloaded weirdly when I submitted the first time, so I wasn’t sure if it was caught in the filter or went poof, thus my “into the ether” comment. I appreciate you checking.

    Todd Benkert,

    I appreciate you writing the article and your comments here.

    I’ve had to deal with some all hands on deck weirdness at work, so I haven’t been able to catch the streaming – can anyone say how the presentations have gone? I admit to being disappointed with the worship band atmosphere. I understand wanting to break up heavy subjects, so as to provide time for reflection, but it IS a heavy subject and should be treated as such. I trust everyone here to give honest appraisals.

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  49. Lea: Muff, it was more than that. She also called out the fact that when women report abuse, there are no women in leadership to report to. I just couldn’t listen carefully this morning.

    Conceded to and agreed.
    Who but women can fully fathom women’s issues?
    But I still think that part of the problem is the obsession with ‘sin’ as an all encompassing boogy-man that accounts for every ill in the human experience.
    Most definitely, but I still think

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  50. Lea,

    When I around five or six years old, 1971-1972, after my stepfather came home and used us as punching bags, we would go to a motel room overnight. I’m not sure if she felt ashamed, when she didn’t need to be. We would go back home the next day.

    It wasn’t till later on we would go to my Grandma and Grandpa’s house.

    Besides reporting to police, Beth’s spot on.

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  51. Magistos,

    ” I admit to being disappointed with the worship band atmosphere. I understand wanting to break up heavy subjects, so as to provide time for reflection, but it IS a heavy subject and should be treated as such. I trust everyone here to give honest appraisals.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    honest appraisal, here.

    it is segue. it is public relations. it is branding. it is crowd control. it it not worship of God.

    i really deplore exploiting music for this purpose. i deplore even more playing the God card to sanction it. Exploiting God in pretense.

    the purpose is not to worship to God.

    the purpose is to use music the way multi-level marketing scheme conventions do. or Monday Night Football on television does. or what games shows like The Price Is Right does.

    to create or tie in to a recognizable brand. to control people’s emotions: to pump them up, to wake them up, to calm them down, to induce reflection, to transition.

    utterly shameless and ridiculous to trick people into thinking it’s worship.

    but as it turns out, this is what ‘worship’ is, as defined by common practice. does anyone even realize?

    (my contention is that ‘worship’ is a mystical concept. To use it to create a game show environment is utterly preposterous)

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  52. Lea: when women report abuse, there are no women in leadership to report to.

    Tip of the iceberg. I’ve discovered over time that it’s easier for me as a woman to talk with women clergy about certain topics. I’m sure that plenty of men prefer talking with male clergy about certain topics. Many churches are too small to have more than one pastor. So… adding a resource that helps women in new ways would actually take something away from men. (Solutions exist, but I do want to stipulate this one thing.)

    However, there is no excuse for a mega to have no professional-level female staff. Even if they are not ordained, female pastoral care professionals, maybe seminary trained, should be on staff.

    Enough with the “elders’ wives” approach. Hmph.

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  53. Muff Potter,

    “‘sin’ as an all encompassing boogy-man that accounts for every ill in the human experience.”
    ++++++++++

    goodness, yes.

    sort of likening ‘sin’ to cold and flu germs. they’re out there and everyone’s exposed.

    “yep, came down with a cold. not my fault, really.” (in fact, i might even get some pity and pampering as i sniffle away!

    “i couldn’t help it… sin just got the best of me. i’m really on satan’s radar, right now. and i’m the victim here!”

    please… i can fault ‘you’ for wilful action, inaction, and ignorance. for which there are consequences. which mature and responsible human beings accept without whining or shifting blame.

    (as you say, muff, generic you)

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  54. Friend: Enough with the “elders’ wives” approach. Hmph.

    I could rant about that concept for a long, long time because it’s terrible.

    I’m in a bigger church and we have male and female clergy and staff, so it’s not really an issue for me, but the SBC is purposefully *limiting* women’s roles to the outskirts if at all. It’s not even a matter of lacking resources, but excluding them. That’s on them.

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  55. Friend,

    “Enough with the “elders’ wives” approach. Hmph.”
    +++++++++++

    these figureheads are sometimes called “pastor” so & so.

    pastor John Smith and his wife Mary Smith. She did all the work. He did nothing, except sit there and either nod or shake his head.

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  56. Muff Potter,

    The way it gets used sometimes is actually scapegoating.

    Beating or raping your wife; Beating or molesting your kid or stepkid; Beating or molesting kids in your neighborhood or church; Raping women in neighborhood or church, like Boles; That all requires thought. It’s sin, but it’s fully intentional.

    As children of God, we’re supposed to keep our thoughts on Him, not raping, molesting, etc.

    The predators spoke of here, I do question their salvation.

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  57. Lea: but the SBC is purposefully *limiting* women’s roles to the outskirts if at all. It’s not even a matter of lacking resources, but excluding them. That’s on them.

    I still want a Biblical explanation from the SBC leadership that severely limits the role of women in the Ministry in the SBC. And one cherry picked verse will not satisfy me.

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  58. Brian: The predators spoke of here, I do question their salvation.

    Brian, TWW has changed my views about salvation. I think heaven will be full of people who suffered. Sure, others will be there too. But I don’t think St. Peter is going to pay special attention to people who wave their credentials. He will look for people with bandages.

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  59. Brian: The predators spoke of here, I do question their salvation.

    Cheap grace excuses their deviant behavior … that’s why it’s such a popular teaching. True Grace does not. Jesus who is our Savior now will someday be our Judge.

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  60. mot,

    At the national or even state level, you as former SBC probably know better than I do.

    As individuals, that’s who calls Child Protection Services, hopefully they’ll be watching, take it upon themselves to learn more, and take action.

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  61. “Beth Moore said if the SBC is to become a “healthier church culture,” it is imperative “that she be protected from abuse and from exploitation for the sake of owning all the power.” … “If complementarianism were a woman, I’d tell you that woman is being abused, and somebody needs to call the police and start an investigation. And God help us if the police are in on it. I guess now I will enter the witness protection program.””

    https://baptistnews.com/article/caring-well-conference-cites-failures-in-in-the-southern-baptist-conventions-response-to-sexual-abuse/#.XZkft1VKipo

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  62. “Does complementarian theology cause abuse? The answer is no. Sin and gross selfishness in the human heart cause abuse. Demonic influences cause abuse. However, has a culture prevalent in various circles of the SBC formed and burgeoned out of it contributed to it? Absolutely and heavily.” (Beth Moore)

    https://baptistnews.com/article/caring-well-conference-cites-failures-in-in-the-southern-baptist-conventions-response-to-sexual-abuse/#.XZkiQFVKipp

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  63. Magistos: https://sbcvoices.com/caring-well-conference-day-1-recap/

    “The most notable and important part of Greear’s remarks, in my opinion, was specific naming of advocates that were not invited to speak at the conference. He specifically names Christa Brown, Tiffany Thigpen, Mary Demuth, Anne Marie Miller, David Pittman, Jules Woodsen and Megan Lively as voices that should have been listened to in the past but were treated as “attacks from adversaries instead of warnings from friends.””

    Somebody briefed Greear on what names to drop to appease the watchblogs.

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  64. Max,

    Max,

    Moore said that complementarianism doesn’t necessarily cause abuse outright, but it most definitely enables it by providing hand and footholds so to speak.

    I wonder if it’s occurred Greerar and the other SBC big whigs, that slavish devotion to Complementarian ideology may not be in the best interest of the long term survival of the SBC?

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  65. Max: “The most notable and important part of Greear’s remarks, in my opinion, was specific naming of advocates that were not invited to speak at the conference. He specifically names Christa Brown, Tiffany Thigpen, Mary Demuth, Anne Marie Miller, David Pittman, Jules Woodsen and Megan Lively as voices that should have been listened to in the past but were treated as “attacks from adversaries instead of warnings from friends.””

    Somebody briefed Greear on what names to drop to appease the watchblogs.

    Yes, looks like a few seconds of name checking at a liiteral and figurative distance of those whose voices would complicate or compromise carefully crafted narratives is being seen by some as a net positive.

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  66. Muff Potter: I wonder if it’s occurred Greerar and the other SBC big whigs, that slavish devotion to Complementarian ideology may not be in the best interest of the long term survival of the SBC?

    Whenever one group subjects another group to unjust treatment or control it is oppression, which is a form of abuse. The SBC cannot justify by Scripture the mistreatment of anyone by race, class or gender without cherry-picking verses to support a pet theology. The denomination began by those who used their theology to oppress another race … it may very well end by using that same theology to oppress another gender.

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  67. Re the worship teams and performances: there was a time when, however wisely or foolishly, evangelists decided to “pack “em in with a show” in order to give them the gospel. It turned out many came for the show but not the message. Then along came the church growth movement and its gurus who discovered those that came for the show paid for said show, so give them what they want.

    Just last week I listened to a conversation where some senior saints were lamenting that at their church, no one had gotten saved in years. They could remember when folks walked the aisle, knelt and prayed at the altar, and got up forever altered and that for the better. Now in spite of following all the latest methods to win the lost no one is getting saved, no lives changed.

    The consensus was that when man decided he could “get folks saved” the Holy Spirit stepped back to let us play at it. Only when we go back to preaching, singing, and praying “the hard stuff” and stop laying a chisel to the altar, so the speak (look it up. that is forbidden in one OT passage), will the Holy Spirit step forward and move again.

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  68. “Boz (Tchividjian) called us to look through the lens of the survivors and his address served to give voice to many of the concerns of the survivor community concerning the appropriateness of hosting the conference, the ongoing inaction of the Convention in responding to abuse because of church autonomy, and the good ol’ boy system that speaks out about abuse in the abstract “until it’s some leader’s friend in an organization and then we’re not talking about it” (alluding to the current leadership support of Matt Chandler).

    His overarching point was that it’s not the abused who are in most need of healing, it is the church. “Your system is broken,” he declared. “The system in the SBC is broken.””

    https://sbcvoices.com/caring-well-conference-day-2-recap/

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  69. “(Carol Hogue) called for an end to the Good ‘ol boy system often creates an atmosphere that leads to misplaced trust.”

    https://sbcvoices.com/caring-well-conference-day-2-recap/

    Revelation of the ‘ol boy system which covered and protected abusers has been a disturbing eye-opener. This betrayal of trust between pulpit and pew will be a tough challenge for SBC to overcome … “Caring Well” must be more than a conference.

    As a side-note, Greear needs to stop dragging out Paige Patterson as the poster child for systemic problems within SBC. Matt Chandler is in his tribe, he was buds with potty-mouth Driscoll, he considered James MacDonald one of his biggest “influencers” … yep, he needs to drop other bad-boy names than Patterson ever once in a while.

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  70. Brian: Talking to everyone here on TWW has created an interest to just once in awhile attend another denomination’s service.

    Wisdom. There is so much more to the Body of Christ than what a single denomination might offer. The people of God are dispersed in various Christian expressions across planet earth. I’m a Baptist, but you can find me on occasion at an Assembly of God gathering. I suppose I’m really a Bapticostal. My family is attending a Christian gathering tonight that will have multiple denominations worshiping together, an annual concert of folks raising one voice to the Lord without creed getting in the way.

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  71. linda,

    “a conversation where some senior saints were lamenting that at their church, no one had gotten saved in years. They could remember when folks walked the aisle, knelt and prayed at the altar, and got up forever altered and that for the better. Now in spite of following all the latest methods to win the lost no one is getting saved, no lives changed.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    most of the churches i’ve gone to haven’t had an altar anything, nor a walking-the-aisle. just wasn’t the custom. things were more private, between the person and God.

    i don’t think “getting saved” is a humanly quantifiable thing.

    repeating a party line prayer means about as much as peeling off an “I voted” sticker and slapping it on one’s lapel. if there is anything deep and meaningful, it will be in private, away from observation.

    as far as lives changed, that is a very private thing, too.

    my parents have a friend, a long-time fellow christian/believer (however to say it). he doesn’t recall ever “asking Jesus into his heart”, or any other official procedure. he simply inclined his ear and thoughts toward God over the years.

    They (he and God) got to know each other over time and through experience (the day-by-day kind of experience).

    He’s a very quiet man. not demonstrable at all, an internal sort of person. he’s a good & honest man, like many people. christians looking for ‘evidence’ probably wouldn’t find it.

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  72. elastigirl: most of the churches i’ve gone to haven’t had an altar anything, nor a walking-the-aisle. just wasn’t the custom. things were more private, between the person and God.

    i don’t think “getting saved” is a humanly quantifiable thing.

    repeating a party line prayer means about as much as peeling off an “I voted” sticker and slapping it on one’s lapel. if there is anything deep and meaningful, it will be in private, away from observation.

    as far as lives changed, that is a very private thing, too.

    my parents have a friend, a long-time fellow christian/believer (however to say it). he doesn’t recall ever “asking Jesus into his heart”, or any other official procedure. he simply inclined his ear and thoughts toward God over the years.

    They (he and God) got to know each other over time and through experience (the day-by-day kind of experience).

    He’s a very quiet man. not demonstrable at all, an internal sort of person. he’s a good & honest man, like many people. christians looking for ‘evidence’ probably wouldn’t find it.

    Sadly lots of people have walked aisles or make a personal committment at a Crusade and shortly fall away. We will never know who is in or out–that is God’s job.

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  73. I think the point I made has been missed: the folks were lamenting that their church had gone from preaching Jesus to teaching on how to manage your money, how to have a happy marriage, how to find happiness, etc.

    I make no apologies for having been born again at a specific point as part of a Billy Graham crusade. My dh came to the faith more slowly and cannot pinpoint the time. Adrian Rogers used to teach that if you left Orlando on a plain for Atlanta, some folks would actually know when the plane entered Georgia. Others would not. But if you found yourself disembarking in Atlanta, you knew sometime somewhere you actually specifically entered Georgia.

    The folks (not from my church or denomination) were making the point they were not leading anyone to faith in Christ: not their own children, not anyone else in our town. Not even making the attempt.

    That is something any church should rue.

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  74. Brian,

    “But, in some peoples life before and after being saved is like night and day. You can see the difference.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    for many, many people this just isn’t the case. i am bothered by the standard and litmus test being a fabulous, night-into-day testimony.

    for most christian people i know, they simply have no such thing. they simply plod along doing their best.

    it’s not glamorous. and so what.

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  75. For those who didn’t or can’t see Boz’s talk yet…shouldn’t as in the SBC hasn’t done the internal work necessary to position themselves in a way to host a conference on sexual abuse in their churches. Essentially, the SBC needs to go through a long, long process of listening and mourning first and then maybe in five years or so they *might* be in a place to host a conference.

    I have a lot more thoughts of my own about the SBC in this and only had the bandwidth to watch some of the conference but blah my brain can’t type anything else at the moment.

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  76. Brian: Knowing who’s saved or not saved, you’re correct, that’s God’s job. But, in some peoples life before and after being saved is like night and day. You can see the difference.

    Certainly can not and would not argue with your words above.

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  77. emily honey: Boz’s talk pointing out how the SBC shouldn’t be holding a conference on this in the first place pretty much sums up all my feelings about it.

    The SBC leaders need to admit they were wrong and I am afraid they want do this. They had a conference and they will feel like mission accomplished.

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  78. elastigirl: for many, many people this just isn’t the case. i am bothered by the standard and litmus test being a fabulous, night-into-day testimony.

    I know my minister said something about some people come in a moment and some people are born into the faith or drift in i guess? I’m saying it wrong, but I’m with you that it’s not always a *dramatic conversion* sometimes it just is. I think dramatic conversion might be more baptist (or some other denoms) but it’s not the accepted only way in most denominations.

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  79. Brian,

    “some peoples life before and after being saved is like night and day. You can see the difference.”

    elastigirl,

    “i am bothered by the standard and litmus test being a fabulous, night-into-day testimony.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    …which isn’t to say you are necessarily advocating for such a standard and litmust test.

    if sasquatch has such a radical encounter with God, then i will be very happy for him or her.

    (all living things are impacted by God’s presence. i once heard someone tell a story about how they calmed a nervous and frightened lamb with the words “Jesus loves you, little lamb.”)

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  80. linda,

    “I think the point I made has been missed: the folks were lamenting that their church had gone from preaching Jesus to teaching on how to manage your money, how to have a happy marriage, how to find happiness, etc.”
    ++++++++++++

    I don’t disagree. kind of like a religion of life-coaching and self-help. but slapping the God brand on it all, making it the only acceptable method. on penalty of God’s hot displeasure.

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  81. Jack,

    i’m pretty sure understand.

    i like the Thoreau quote (something similar ascribed to nathaniel hawthorne — is there a quote authority? i hate not giving credit to the right person):

    “Happiness is like a butterfly, the more you chase it, the more it will elude you, but if you notice the other things around you, it will gently come and sit on your shoulder.”

    it can be the same with God.

    i feel i’ve found more of a ‘raw current’ (if a flow of something can be thought of as ‘raw’, unrefined, unadulterated) of God since having stopped ‘the program’. all the prescribed doing and methodology. since having left God City where it all happens through all its infrastructure.

    the current flows every where, really. God City has just harnessed it, run it through all kinds of grids, weakened it quite a bit in some areas, and stopped the flow altogether in other areas.

    but the current runs strong outside the City.
    ———

    now, switching metaphors, i gather the daylight you’ve found is just daylight, in all its illuminated goodness. it’s not about God, it’s just life-giving light.

    i imagine you’ve found peace in the beauty of goodness for its own sake — because it’s simply right and good. which feels great. especially the freedom of it.

    i’m being presumptuous, here. but i’ll do it one more time: perhaps that’s still God.

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  82. mot: They had a conference and they will feel like mission accomplished.

    That pretty much describes SBC’s annual conferences. Denominational leaders and “messengers” from SBC churches meet in some nice location, vote for officers, pass resolutions, sing kumbaya, and then return home to settle back into business as usual.

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  83. linda: I think the point I made has been missed: the folks were lamenting that their church had gone from preaching Jesus to teaching on how to manage your money, how to have a happy marriage, how to find happiness, etc.

    Yep. Sometimes I want to stand up in these places and scream “What about JESUS?!!” The Main Thing just ain’t the main thing anymore.

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  84. mot: The SBC leaders need to admit they were wrong and I am afraid they want do this.

    Reminds me of recorded phone messages that businesses use “Your call is important to us. Please leave a message and we’ll get back to you.” Good Lord!! Victims and watchblogs have been calling the SBC on this for years – nobody got back to them … not until the Houston Chronicle turned up the heat. Let’s see if they genuinely “care well” this time.

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  85. emily honey: Boz’s talk pointing out how the SBC shouldn’t be holding a conference on this in the first place pretty much sums up all my feelings about it.

    I would think 15 million Southern Baptists in 45,000+ churches should also be feeling the same way. National leaders failed them … shepherds did not protect the sheep … pulpits betrayed the pew.

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  86. Max: Reminds me of recorded phone messages that businesses use “Your call is important to us. Please leave a message and we’ll get back to you.” Good Lord!! Victims and watchblogs have been calling the SBC on this for years – nobody got back to them … not until the Houston Chronicle turned up the heat. Let’s see if they genuinely “care well” this time.

    My major question of the men SBC leaders -Is why NOW!

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  87. Max: I would think 15 million Southern Baptists in 45,000+ churches should also be feeling the same way. National leaders failed them … shepherds did not protect the sheep … pulpits betrayed the pew.

    Most of the SBC pastors for years have either told their congregants nothing about major SBC issues or told them all is well. To ask questions in SBC churches about major issues is to be labeled a troublemaker. And you dare not ask questions about major SBC issues from a male pastor if you are heaven forbid a woman.

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  88. mot,

    “My major question of the men SBC leaders -Is why NOW!”
    ++++++++++++++

    my guess is they hired an expensive PR firm who told them to.

    (using tithe dollars sacrificially given, of course, to compensate for the inherent lack of awareness.)

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  89. mot: Most of the SBC pastors for years have either told their congregants nothing about major SBC issues or told them all is well.

    Which is exactly why millions of non-Calvinist Southern Baptists do not know that their denomination is being Calvinized by Al Mohler and his band of Mohlerites. They would be shocked to know that most SBC entities are now under the direction of New Calvinists (including seminaries, mission agencies, and publishing house). They will wake up some Sunday morning to find out that SBC distinctives in belief and practice for the last 150 years were taken away from them … that whosoever-will-may-come is no longer the SBC default theology … and their pastors knew, but failed to have family meetings along the way to inform and warn them. Yep, most of the blame can be laid at the feet of 45,000+ SBC pastors who were too quiet.

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  90. Max: Which is exactly why millions of non-Calvinist Southern Baptists do not know that their denomination is being Calvinized by Al Mohler and his band of Mohlerites. They would be shocked to know that most SBC entities are now under the direction of New Calvinists (including seminaries, mission agencies, and publishing house). They will wake up some Sunday morning to find out that SBC distinctives in belief and practice for the last 150 years were taken away from them … that whosoever-will-may-come is no longer the SBC default theology … and their pastors knew, but failed to have family meetings along the way to inform and warn them. Yep, most of the blame can be laid at the feet of 45,000+ SBC pastors who were too quiet.

    Yes, these 45,000 + SBC pastors are definitely not profiles in courage IMO.

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  91. mot: these 45,000 + SBC pastors are definitely not profiles in courage IMO

    The SBC elites have convinced them that they need to maintain unity in the ranks, agree to disagree, get along to go along, make room under the big SBC tent for diverse theologies … but not at the expense of losing SBC identity, IMO.

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  92. Brian: Besides Paige Patterson, Jerry Vines was outed for his coverup by Rachel D. on day three.

    Did the New Calvinists have anyone present to out any of their own (e.g. Matt Chandler) … or did they just pick on the old guard like Patterson and Vines? Were the victim-speakers handpicked to slant the narrative to problems only in SBC’s “traditional” ranks? The new reformers definitely aren’t champions riding white horses to rescue the SBC from bad-boys … they’ve got problems in their camp, too. In fact, Driscollites abound in SBC’s New Calvinist church plants … those are accidents waiting to happen, just give them a little time.

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  93. Ken F (aka Tweed): Founders published this article today on the conference: https://founders.org/2019/10/08/what-was-missing-from-caring-well/

    “… several key things were absent: a focus on the Gospel, a promotion of truth, and a reliance on Scripture to equip the church …”

    New Calvinists do not focus on the Gospel (the real one), so that’s not surprising … and without that essential truth in motion, they can’t equip the church.

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  94. Ken F (aka Tweed): Founders published this article today on the conference: https://founders.org/2019/10/08/what-was-missing-from-caring-well/

    “We are also called to be sober minded, and to recognize that we have an enemy who delights in deceit, cover-ups, and lies.”

    Remember this was a conference primarily organized by SBC’s New Calvinists. Their young army of new reformers have taken over SBC churches by stealth and deception … deceit, cover-up, and lies are in their tool kit.

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  95. “Jen Lyell, an executive at LifeWay Christian Resources, made the hard decision to publicly disclose her story of being sexually abused by a former seminary professor in order to keep him from simply moving on to another ministry position to prey on others.

    Trusting the SBC to “protect her and to handle her story well” … Lyell reached out to Baptist Press, the denomination’s official news service overseen by the SBC Executive Committee, only to have phrases in her written statement such as “I was sexually abused” and “sexually acted against me” reworded as “a morally inappropriate relationship” and implying the situation was an adulterous affair.”

    https://baptistnews.com/article/caring-well-speaker-says-baptist-press-reported-abuse-disclosure-as-a-consensual-affair/#.XZ0yMVVKipo

    Manipulate the words and you can manipulate the “reality.” But the truth always prevails in the end.

    Whew! The SBC underbelly is a nasty thing to behold.

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  96. Max: Ken F (aka Tweed): Founders published this article today on the conference: https://founders.org/2019/10/08/what-was-missing-from-caring-well/

    This first paragraph says it all to me–“At the age of 25 I was sexually assaulted. I say this first not because it is a club membership that I particularly flaunt, but because establishing oneself as a victim seems to be the permission slip needed if one wishes to be granted the right to speak on the topic of sexual abuse. ” All I will say Is WOW!

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  97. mot: wonder why they did this?

    Because Dr. David Sills was a seminary professor at Southern Seminary? Would Baptist Press, the official news service of the Southern Baptist Convention, spin a story about a bad-boy professor at SBC’s flagship seminary?

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  98. Tom Ascol (Founders):

    https://tomascol.com/a-fathers-heartbreak-over-a-daughters-abuse/

    “Sarah is my firstborn, and has been precocious from birth…Four and a half years ago, after months of counsel by her elders and encouragement from her church, followed by intensive training, she got on an airplane in Ft. Myers, Florida and headed for the land that would be her home for the next two years. After a two week stop in Dubai for arrangement of last minute details, Sarah boarded her final flight…Before that plane touched down she was sexually assaulted in flight by a man…The perpetrator was unknown and impossible to find. He belongs to a people group blinded by Islam.”

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  99. mot,

    Max: “Manipulate the words and you can manipulate the “reality.””

    Mot: “wonder why they did this?”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    one word: Revenge.

    Someone named Ronnie W. Rogers has a blog or website by the same name. in his post dated MARCH 25, 2019 he posts Paige Patterson’s letter to the Houston Chronicle.

    in his own words, the reason he posted the letter: “Since Jennifer Lyell misrepresented Dr. Paige Patterson…”.

    (‘since she did that, then i’m going to do this!’)
    ——————-

    Jennifer’s statement had made reference to the fact that Paige Patterson lied to his board about a student’s rape allegation and talked about “breaking down” the victim of a more recent rape.”

    (per the courier journal article, Southern Baptist professor accused of sexually abusing student ‘by design’ over a decade, dated March, 2019.)
    ————

    Ronnie W. Rogers can’t be the only one who views Jennifer Lyells as an enemy who misrepresented PP (and not as not a victim of sexual abuse at the hands of SBC leadership).

    He is angry about it. Enough to make it his motivation for action.

    I suspect that Ronnie Floyd, Shawn Henricks, Rogher “Sing” Oldham, and their pals simply did a tit-for-tat.

    ‘You misrepresent an SBC leader, then we will misrepresent you.’

    Revenge.

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  100. Max,

    The Baptist Press changed her words. Changed her testimony. Changed the facts. Reversed her sexual abuse and instead turned her into an adulterous woman. They did this willfully, to portray her in a negative light.

    For which she received abuse upon abuse from fellow Southern Baptists.

    And all Jonathon Howe, elected last month as the Executive Committee’s vice president for communications, has to say is,

    “it was not accurate”.

    that’s it??

    i expect a grovelling apology. With restitution.

    where’s your conscience, Jonathon Howe and the Executive Club? Sold it with parts of your soul, did you? Was it for the paycheck? For power? For personal legacy?

    (well, look at your legacy now)

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  101. Ken F (aka Tweed): https://founders.org/2019/04/01/we-must-fight-for-the-equality-of-women/

    Well now, what were the Founders going to do?! After the New Calvinists tried to come across as female-friendly last week, the Old Calvinists had to get in on it. However, with their complementarian oppression of wimmenfolk for years, there’s just not a lot of credibility in their current hype about fighting for equality.

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  102. elastigirl: The Baptist Press changed her words. Changed her testimony. Changed the facts.

    You would have to lose your Christianity to do that! When you toe the party line (and betray your conscience), you get your toe between a rock and hard place. In the Christian Industrial Complex, everything changes … the rules are different.

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  103. Max: You would have to lose your Christianity to do that! When you toe the party line (and betray your conscience), you get your toe between a rock and hard place. In the Christian Industrial Complex, everything changes … the rules are different.

    Max: If the SBC had not outlawed women from leadership positions around the year 2000 in the SBC do you think he could have gotten away with this?

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  104. mot: If the SBC had not outlawed women from leadership positions around the year 2000 in the SBC do you think he could have gotten away with this?

    In the absence of female voices in leadership roles in any organization, men control absolutely – with no restriction and no limitation, totally. In a church organization, if the leaders are unspiritual men, wisdom will not prevail in their decisions.

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  105. Max: In the absence of female voices in leadership roles in any organization, men control absolutely – with no restriction and no limitation, totally. In a church organization, if the leaders are unspiritual men, wisdom will not prevail in their decisions.

    I would love to know how many SBC leaders are women?

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  106. Max,

    Ronnie Floyd…

    It appears from this Baptist News article that Ronnie Floyd did nothing to set the record straight. By that I mean, simply tell the truth. And apologize profoundly for lying about her in the name of God.

    Jennifer began contacting him in March. It is now October 10.

    These slimy, dishonest, corrupt and misogynistic shenanigans are what Ronnie Floys is being paid a reported $500,000 for.

    and he had the audacity to sit on the stage in the panel “Sexual Abuse in the Southern Baptist Convention” at the Caring Well Conference…

    GAAAAWWWWD…… the SBC is the upside-down. where everything good, honest, true, & right is rationalized away for the sake of a rancid, oozing ball of power, money, and purity of ideology.

    where wrong is right. stupid is smart. self-centered is appropriate. misogyny is not only appropriate but godly, too.

    just amazing…. how easily they make honest, right, and true simply disappear.

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  107. mot,

    “I would love to know how many SBC leaders are women?”
    ++++++++++

    hard to imagine they are anything other than cardboard dolls which they dress up and prop up.

    either she has authority over processes and people (including men) or she does not.

    women, speak first. you have absolutely no reason not to.

    when you have something to say, interject if necessary. men do it.

    if it helps, pretend you are dealing with children. (well, not all that much pretending required)

    they need your influence. the entire denomination needs your influence. as well as your church, neighborhood, your town,….the world.

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  108. elastigirl: if it helps, pretend you are dealing with children. (well, not all that much pretending required)

    HA!
    Too funny, and too true!
    Dealing with some of those guys is like dealing with a toddler.
    Mrs. Muff made that observation many years ago when I was still a Calvary Chapelite.

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  109. elastigirl: Ronnie W. Rogers can’t be the only one who views Jennifer Lyells as an enemy who misrepresented PP (and not as not a victim of sexual abuse at the hands of SBC leadership).

    He is angry about it. Enough to make it his motivation for action.

    I suspect that Ronnie Floyd, Shawn Henricks, Rogher “Sing” Oldham, and their pals simply did a tit-for-tat.

    ‘You misrepresent an SBC leader, then we will misrepresent you.’

    Revenge.

    Yes, but the added complication is that they know she did not misrepresent him. They simply don’t like that she spoke the truth. So the tit for tat is more like, you speak up about the truth, we will smear you with lies.

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