(2/2) Updated 8/28/19::Tom Chantry Fan Laughs About the Painful History of One of Chantry’s Victims. ARBCA Should Step Up and Condemn This Behavior.


Sadness –CC2

“You can recognize survivors of abuse by their courage. When silence is so very inviting, they step forward and share their truth so others know they aren’t alone.” ― Jeanne McElvaney, Healing Insights: Effects of Abuse for Adults Abused as Children


 

Approximately 2 1/2 years ago, I began to follow the arrest and charges filed against Tom Chantry. I was immediately attacked by Frank Turk, Phil Johnson’s pal on the Pyromaniacs blog. He became so incensed that I stood by my coverage that the decided to accuse me of something despicable that he knew was a lie. Due to his heinous allegation which was definitely libel (he knew it was a lie), he was forced to retire from social media. You can read about it here.

Shortly thereafter, I began receiving comments behind the scenes accusing me of have a filthy mind, amongst other things. Most of those comments were never approved. Six months after the Turk incident, poorly written letters were sent to my church, Duke University (my husband’s employer) as well as to some community organizations with which my husband and I are affiliated. I’ve often wondered what lovely people in the Raleigh/Wake Forest area helped this creepster to get that information? The letter did no harm and, instead, gave me an opportunity to describe my blog to my friends and pastors. The letter, which briefly discussed my coverage of Iain Campbell (another proven abuser), appeared to stress my coverage of Tom Chantry. The person who wrote it did so anonymously, demonstrating his innate cowardice and inability to *act like a man* as they say in his circles.

Thankfully, Todd Wilhelm retuned home to Arizona from his stint in Dubai and began to cover Chantry’s charges and trials. I would often review Todd’s posts for TWW. During this time, I continued to receive despicable comments behind the scenes, accusing me of all sorts of evil doings. Todd also receive some similar types of comments at his blog. I’ve often wondered if this was Frank Turk or if it was some other equally disturbing individual.

I now believe that the individual who has been sending these is heavily involved in ARBCA and is a Tom Chantry fanboy. Frankly, I am concerned about this person because I believe he comes across as a bit unbalanced. I sure hope if anyone in ARBCA suspects who this is (and I’m willing to bet that they do,) they will be sure to get him some help before he, too, ends up doing something that the denomination needs to *investigate.*

Mr *Haha’s* disturbing lack of understanding of the long term consequences of child sex abuse.

Here is a comment to me. I have covered up the name of the victim. Update: 8/29/19 It appears that this mans’ comment has gained some unwanted and negative attention. I am now abridging the comment even further. ARBCA-you have some folks who are total creeps. I bet you have an idea who this is.Tell him to stop.

Haha is probably an uneducated individual who is equally unschooled in thoughtful theology. He may also be like the Tin Man in the Wizard of Oz who was missing a heart. His penchant for hiding behind silly names appears to indicate that he is like the Lion who needed courage. And, sadly, his apparent lack of education on this subject indicates he has is like the Scarecrow who needed a brain.

Haha doesn’t seem to understand that being abused as a child can lead to serious difficulties as the child begins to age. Nor does he seem to care by using a name that admits he is laughing about the victim’s pain. Thankfully, educated professionals have long studied this issue. Here is one such article. Adult Manifestations of Childhood Sexual Abuse

Sexual Effects

Disturbances of desire, arousal, and orgasm may result from the association between sexual activity, violation, and pain. Survivors are more likely to have had 50 or more intercourse partners, have had a sexually transmitted infection, and engage in risk-taking behaviors that place them at risk of contracting human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) (8, 9). Early adolescent or unintended pregnancy and prostitution are associated with sexual abuse (10, 11). Gynecologic problems, including chronic pelvic pain, dyspareunia, vaginismus, and nonspecific vaginitis, are common diagnoses among survivors (12-14). Survivors may be less likely to have regular Pap tests and may seek little or no prenatal care (15).

The Honorable Bradley Astrowsky puts the blame where the blame is due. This is a must read.

Judge Astrowsky, who presided over the trial, addressed this exact issue as raised by Haha in regards to this victim. This is being quoted from the proceedings surrounding Tom Chantry’s sentencing. Unlike Mr Haha, Astrowsky is an educated man who also has a heart. I believe his words should be read by all who have followed this trial. The screen shots below are from page 69, line 11 through page 70, line 8 and page 73, lines 2-13 of the sentencing documents obtained by Todd Wilhelm.(Thanks. Todd.)

 

 

 

 

 

Tom Chantry’s victim was exposed to disgusting abuse at the hands of Tom Chantry. Yet the man who wrote me (as well as Todd) wants to heap blame on the victim while laughing about it. Although Tom Chantry did this to that chid. ARBCA, by covering up these claims, also participated in this child’s pain. Instead of giving him love and support, ARBCA made sure Chantry was covered.

Why? Was his *theological prowess* so great that ARBCA and friends believed the world couldn’t survive without him in the pulpit?

ARBCA-It’s time to wake up and deal with the sickness in your denomination. I believe that Haha is someone in your midst and I bet that some of you may even know who he is. Do you plan to cover up this behavior as well?

Maybe you agree with him. Maybe you believe that we are the ones who have the *filthy heart* and you are the ones who are pure as snow….This has been going on for 2 1/2 years and it needs to stop.

Churches in your denomination are dropping their membership. If this keep up, I bet you won’t have a denomination much longer. Shame on all of you who are sticking around, putting up with this malignant behavior.

A note to this young man and his family: I cannot express how sad I am for what you have endured. You had the guts to testify and put this monster behind bars. Please know that I (and most of the people here at TWW) get it. If I can ever help you in anyway, please contact me: dee@thewartburgwatch.com


Comments

(2/2) Updated 8/28/19::Tom Chantry Fan Laughs About the Painful History of One of Chantry’s Victims. ARBCA Should Step Up and Condemn This Behavior. — 136 Comments

  1. Sins of the pastors are visited on the flock, down to multiple generations.

    But God is not mocked.

    May the victims and their families find healing.

    ——–

    I wonder if a civil action is warranted against the ARBCA personnel who concealed TJC’s crimes. It might be that a sooner resolution of this, with timely punishment of TJC, might have been better for the victims.

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  2. Dee—so very sorry you have to deal with this kind of abuse. You are doing something that is very very necessary!

    I am amazed by your strength through all the garbage hurled at you and your family.

    Thank you so much!

    I pray for you every morning

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  3. Who ever this HaHa is, he/she is an immature bully. It’s hard to believe that this so called HaHa person is “Christian.” They obviously don’t know that love is a hallmark of a Christian.

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  4. HI, Dee-please take action if anything menacing comes along. People feel too much freedom today to not only express their opinions but to act on them. It’s especially concerning when these same people claim to be part of the family of God.

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  5. I think this book quote is timely and very germane to the topic…
    ==================================================================

    Father Sean O’Connell to his nephew Quinn O’Connell on the Church:

    “Evil men attend church,” he went on.
    “Evil men pray in synagogues, and evil men perform mutilations on women to the glory of Allah.
    Evil men pay large sums for us to renew the leases on their consciences.
    Men invented the system because they needed it, and the system, faulty as it is, works.”

    —– From A God in Ruins by Leon Uris —–

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  6. You are assuming that these were written by a man but they have a kind of childish quality. Given the nature of the Internet, they could be written by anyone. It could be a kid, a teenager, or even someone old with some form of dementia. I have seen a variety of comments on many blogs and I often wonder these things. Some of the comments that I have seen that were weird most likely have come from someone who was very elderly and confused.
    The short of it is that we do not know who it is and I am not sure speculating really helps anything. These could come from someone’s kid or grandkid close to the Chantries. This is part of the real problem with an anonymous Internet like we currently have. I suspect that the ability to remain anonymous will eventually stop with changes in laws. Even if they do not, we will eventually learn the whole truth which is good to keep in mind. God sees everything good and bad and no secrets are permanent.

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  7. It’s called projection. Mr. Ha ha is projecting his own thoughts and feelings on you. However devious or creepy his accusations are, know that he is revealing himself in each word.

    I find it hard to believe he isn’t aware of how sexual abuse damage affects children. I’ll bet he’s well aware. It’s a tactic. Once children are damaged enough to act out, you can then use that against them to trap them in a vicious cycle and maintain power. It’s sick. But then, everyone involved in this grievous little group of supporters and enablers are sick.

    Projection (defence mechanism)
    Psychology
    Psychological projection can be defined as unconsciously assuming that others share the same or similar thoughts, beliefs, values, or positions on any given subject. According to the theories of Sigmund Freud, it is a psychological defense mechanism whereby one “projects” one’s own undesirable thoughts, motivations, desires, feelings—basically parts of oneself—onto someone else. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others originate those feelings.. The principle of projection is well-established in psychology. The Psychology Wiki

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  8. Samuel Conner: I wonder if a civil action is warranted against the ARBCA personnel who concealed TJC’s crimes. It might be that a sooner resolution of this, with timely punishment of TJC, might have been better for the victims.

    It would certainly help.

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  9. SiteSeer: It would certainly help.

    As Paul wrote, the civil magistrate does not bear the sword for nothing.

    It’s disheartening that there are people who seem to know the Scriptures so well but still have so little fear of wrongdoing. It’s as though they reckon that “YHWH does not see.”

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  10. This is absolutely appalling. I agree with SiteSeer, this is obvious projection.
    It is amazing to me that when injustice and abuse is revealed and exposed, whether it be a child or an adult, the initial and continuous reaction of those in support of the abuser is to condemn the victim. Even more uphauling, is that these so-called supporters call themselves Christians and people of God. They quite obviously read a different version of the bible or do not read it at all.

    Haha is obviously a bully hiding behind the guise of anonymity…..a coward with no back-bone, spine or conscience. Galatians 5 must be missing or non-existent in the bible he apparently doesn’t own! ARBCA needs to start preaching Galatians 5:13-26.

    The church should lift up, edify and love. The church should restore the broken, the hurt and the fallen, not condemn, ostracize or malign.

    It takes a lot for someone to come out and publicly expose something that was privately done to them. It is not easy and it makes you publicly vulnerable. Those who vehemently protect the abusers, I have discovered, are very much aware of a deeper systematic problem, which they are desperately trying to cover up in a bid to protect the corrupt institution that they are a part of. It has been a big part of their lives for so long and have no clue how they will survive if it no longer exists.

    Continue exposing and disgracing Dee, and protect yourself from these cowards. Those that are for you are far greater than those that are against you.

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  11. From the OP:

    “ARBCA made sure Chantry was covered.

    Why? Was his *theological prowess* so great that ARBCA and friends believed the world couldn’t survive without him in the pulpit?”

    ——-

    It’s hard to know what darkness dwells in the hearts of men, but in their own words,

    This post at Thou Art the Man is eye-opening:

    https://thouarttheman.org/2019/07/12/new-evidence-surfaces-that-indicts-arbca-for-concealing-chantry-abuse/

    The “informal council” members evidently believed that TJC could be (and should be) rehabilitated if he were truly repentant. In retrospect (and, as Todd argues, in prospect at the time), they should not have assumed that; this was a matter for the civil magistrate.

    They wanted to give TJC his life back, apparently assuming that the matter would remain concealed “forever.” As so often happens, trying to achieve one thing leads to the opposite; had they performed their duty and notified the authorities, TJC might now be nearing the end of a prison term imposed in the early 2000s, and really would be getting his life back — instead it appears that his grey head may go down to Sheol in sorrow, and justly so. God is not mocked.

    I think that evidence of “anointing” tends, in church practice, to give one a “pass” on moral failure. Even David was not compelled to abdicate (I think he should have) after his notorious misdeeds in “the matter of Bathsheba and Uriah”. But we know how that story ended; the sword did not depart his house to the end of his days, and the violence even continued after his passing.

    One would like to think that those who claim to stand “in the place of the authority of Christ” within the churches would be held to the highest standards of character and conduct, as befits their claim to represent the one who was “tempted in all ways like us, yet without sin”.

    Alas, too often it is not so.

    Me thinks that the churches are still in exile.

    Perhaps next year in Jerusalem

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  12. Bridget,

    Bridget,
    You hit on a reoccurring theme that I have observed over the years… Many, but not all, of the most “fundamentalist/strident/verse quoting activist/etc” that I have know can be downright mean to any opposition…. just the opposite of what Christ calls his followers to be…. I use to really scratch my head about it…. but, now that I have lived long enough for my hair to be totally grey, and work in the secular-humanist world longer than I was in the fundy “bubble” I realize that some of these “individuals” probably have mental disorders for which religion provides a means for the expression of the disorder….. i.e. obsession to always be correct, always be in control, always have everything figured out, etc, etc… I see very similar behavior in my secular-humanist world, just using ones specific disciple, or general intellectual endeavors, or political party, or life philosophy as their “religion”.
    As Max might say….. their is no spirit of G$d in them….

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  13. I think we should just block trolls. Logic clearly isn’t their strong point if they are trolling to begin with and they obviously don’t really care about doing the right thing.

    As we’ve seen from many “famous” pastors doing bad things, the men who think they are most right are usually the most wrong. Chantry himself certainly is an example of that. I don’t normally consider men possessed by evil, but my aunt was right that Chantry certainly is, and his avid supporters are at least swayed by evil.

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  14. Even with limited knowledge and experience with those who have been abused as children I am well aware that their lives can be greatly traumatized. Yes, some will turn to drugs, promiscuity or crime. I am not excusing their crimes, but it must also be understood that a wounded life does not negate the fact that a person was abused as a child.

    It is tragic, but not surprising that some who were traumatized as children act out their anguish and despair in self-harming ways. It seems that abusers oftentimes prey upon those who have already suffered abuse, knowing that they are vulnerable to being further manipulated.

    Who in their right mind would think ‘Look, this person’s life is such a mess, they could not possibly have been abused’? I am sorry for this person’s trauma, and for the choices that have led them into self harm. I pray that they receive the help they need to recover from the voices and memories that haunt them.

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  15. ishy: I don’t normally consider men possessed by evil, but my aunt was right that Chantry certainly is, and his avid supporters are at least swayed by evil.

    It is difficult to process. How can a person present one image, speaking, writing and teaching things of God, which may be sound, yet have this terrible, secret, second nature? And yet, we have seen it again and again.

    I do not think the average, basically honest person can easily grasp this. I’m no saint, but this stuff blows my mind. I find myself no longer able to trust many people, especially once they show signs of insincerity or a desire to manipulate what people think of them. And why does it appear to be especially common in christian families who are extremely fundamental and legalistic?

    I hate to have to say that this kind of BPD or extreme narcissism seems increasingly prevalent in young people who were raised in very strict, legalistic homes. Is it that physical or sexual abuse was also present, or is it that this strict, authoritarian upbringing is abusive in itself? How many of these parents were practicing the strict, cruel spanking of infants, and what does that do to a child? How many were practicing the strict, and equally cruel, control of everything a child thinks, says or does?

    I have lots of unanswered questions.

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  16. TS00,

    Agreed.

    I hope I don’t cause offense in mentioning this, but the point has been raised in prior threads (and perhaps over at TAtM) that one might wonder “how did TJC himself turn out like this?” A TAtM commenter who claimed to have known TJC since childhood wrote that even as a child, he was “in” to punishing children. Where did that come from?

    Raised in a strict home, in a culture in which corporal punishment is regarded to have biblical warrant (“folly is bound up in the heart of child; the rod will drive it far away”) as an indispensible instrument for the formation of Godly character in children, it’s not hard to wonder whether TJC himself was subjected to significant corporal punishment “for his own good.” If that’s right and has some explanatory power, it could nevertheless not have been brought up at trial or sentencing as a mitigating factor without having the effect of admitting to the validity of the charges.

    This might be an example of the behavior of the fathers having implications that echo down to multiple generations.

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  17. These people despise sexually abused children and the few people who advocate for them.

    This person is probably someone who has sexually abused children and is terrified one day it will come back to him/her.

    If you need to be taught or told that childhood sexual abuse is extremely traumatic and affects you for the rest of your life you are sick, stupid, and wicked.

    I was burned as a little girl. My skin melted off, and that was a good experience compared to the sexual abuse. It was actually a vacation.

    As someone who was sexually abused as a child, I say defenders and protectors of people who sexually abuse children can go sit next to child sexual abusers. You people belong in the same category.

    So many Christians want child sexual abuse to be legal and not taboo. That is obvious.

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  18. Samuel Conner,

    I saw that comment, and it raised questions in my mind.

    When we were in the early days of homeschooling, Ted Tripp’s ‘Shepherding a Child’s Heart’ was all the rage (never read it) and appears to have led to a widespread practice of spanking extremely young children. This stuff was big in homeschooling circles, Sovereign Grace circles and I’m guessing ARBCA circles. Wasn’t Tripp one of those who investigated Chantry’s actions?

    Just seems like there are some real commonalities there. We lived not too far from a church in Wisconsin where the pastor and his son (and I believe another relative) were convicted of abuse for their spanking practices. We had close friends who attended this church, and it appears that this spanking was ‘taught’ and widely practiced. I’m going to guess that they used Tripp’s book as a resource.

    I’ve said it before; we certainly bought into the concept of training our children from a very young age – but not with spanking. You can suppress unwanted behavior and reinforce good behavior in a young child, often with the tone of your voice, just as you train a pet; that made sense to me. Infants want only love and tenderness, and will respond to a firm tone or the removal of items that are being improperly used. They do not need to be struck or have ‘pain’ applied.

    Friends used to laugh that I talked so much to my infants, saying, ‘They can’t understand you!’ I figured the earlier I talked, the earlier they would understand, and sure enough, they were very early talkers.

    But I was flabbergasted that anyone would ever think there was justification for spanking or striking an infant or toddler. If they are banging the high chair madly with their spoon, just gently hold their tiny hand still for a second and say ‘no’. If that doesn’t work, take the spoon away for a while, then try again. It’s not rocket science, and it doesn’t take anger, a wooden spoon or a club to encourage appropriate behavior.

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  19. Mr. Jesperson: The short of it is that we do not know who it is and I am not sure speculating really, helps anything.

    If you got threatening stuff you would speculate. You are not the one who has been looking at these messages for 2 1/2 years. You are not the one receiving them and you don’t get to tell me what is helpful or not helpful. Helpful to who? You? Well, excuse me for ruining your breakfast.

    If this happened to you or your family, I’m sure you would be in there trying to figure it out. And no, these were not written by a kid.You haven’t seen everything written.

    I suggest you roll on over to your local ARBCA church (if you can find one because most of those churches are getting the heck out of that denomination) and sit there, reveling in the loving kindness of this great group of leaders. They covered up Chantry’s actions and I believe they know what is going on since they are not discouraging this behavior.

    Thank God I’m in a church group that gets this stuff and calls it for what it is…a violation of the 10 Commandments. They are in need of repentance.

    Basically, you are not helping and I’m beginning to get irritated. You show little empathy in your comments.

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  20. Guest:
    Samuel Conner,

    I read a story at https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/ about a little boy who would tell his little sister if she let him whip her when he caught her doing things the parents wouldn’t like he would not tell the parents.

    If that story is true and the brother’s offer was appealing, one shudders to think what the parents were doing to both of them.

    TS00,

    Yes, it was Tedd Tripp, author of “Shepherding a Child’s Heart” and perhaps by virtue of that ABRCA’s in-house expert on the use of “the rod” as an instrument of Godly character formation in the young, who formed one-third of the “informal council.” I’ve wondered whether his views on “discipline of the young” influenced his inclination to “show mercy” to TJC.

    It has been argued that the famous “rod will drive folly from the heart of child text” was not in context intended to be a warrant for “first resort” discipline by beating. Perhaps it was parallel to the “a rod for the backs of fools” proverb, and was meant as a last-resort for children who gave unmistakeable evidence of criminality. I think there’s a book-length treatment of this out there.

    I did read TT’s book, decades ago, and was not troubled by it at the time. This may have been due in part to my own up-bringing, and my parents’.

    IIRC, at the core of TT’s book was a concern that children learn proper respect for all the various authorities they will encounter throughout life (the parents being the first and primary ones throughout childhood). Given the severe consequences for disregard of the more powerful authorities one will deal with later in life, it’s a valid concern.

    In retrospect, I think that “fear of punishment” is not a great way to motivate people. If parents and children deeply love each other, one would hope that the parents’ disapproval itself would be a significant deterrent to misbehavior.

    And, of course, if “fear of punishment” is how you view all the authorities in your life, that will certainly carry over into how you view “the church” and God Himself.

    And if one views “authority” through the lens of “fear of punishment”, that may have the effect of reducing one’s willingness to challenge illegitimate uses of authority, of which there are plenty, both inside and outside the churches.

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  21. In the “Adult Manifeststations of Childhood Sexual Abuse” link, under the “Physical Effects” header, they speak of a low pain threshold. I’m wondering if this is a reference to the findings in the Adverse Childhood Experience (ACE) surveys?Where adult survivors are unable to handle medium and high levels of pain related to their health issues. The cause of this being that the body’s nervous system rerouted itself to handle the pain and anxiety be afflicted then.

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  22. Mr. Jesperson,

    Why are you minimising what is being done here? Most troll comments have a ‘childish’ quality- that is, a form of malicious glee that often we only see in public in little kids poking insects with a stick. Here on the internet grown adults sound like that as no-one knows who they are.
    Now, I am never ever ever going to be accused of being a good Christian, except maybe in the burning love I have for the suffering, vulnerable & poor, but your comments are coming across as extremely odd, weirdly flat & depersonalised, & attempting to micro-manage Dee’s ‘Christian’ response on her own blog. You’re not, afaik, her Pastor? What gives? In instructing others – implicitly – not to be judgemental I’m not sure you realise how judgemental you’re being. And clearly that now extends to me, judging you, & that’s fine, like I say I’m not very good at this stuff so your criticism will join my own.

    Dee- what’s worse than getting that stuff behind the scenes? Getting that stuff behind hte scenes, & Mr Jesperson in front of the scenes 😉

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  23. Brian,

    It would definitely be for those kinds of reasons – the trauma response affecting the parasympathetic nervous system plus the interruption to neurological development can result in this. Psychologically too, young victims of many kinds of pain may feel huge relief & an endorphin rush when the pain starts as it means the terrifying waiting period is over, & that once this attack subsides they are then at the ‘safest’ part of the abuse cycle, that is the furthest away from the next attack.

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  24. Brian,

    I definitely think the incident with the letters was outright stalking. At the time, though, there were multiple Chantry-fan trolls here, and a few others posting on their own blogs against dee and other watch bloggers, so hard to tell who it was.

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  25. TS00: we certainly bought into the concept of training our children from a very young age – but not with spanking.

    Some Christian parents believe they are required by God to spank their children. I’ll point out (not for the first time) that it is illegal in many states for adoptive parents to spank adopted children. Adoptive parents have to choose between what they might consider God’s law and state law.

    To my knowledge, there is no proof that adopted children who were not spanked have bad outcomes.

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  26. Guest,

    what you describe in your childhood is horrible – i’m very sorry.
    ———–

    “If you need to be taught or told that childhood sexual abuse is extremely traumatic and affects you for the rest of your life you are sick, stupid, and wicked.”
    +++++++++

    perhaps not sick and wicked, but definitely stupid.

    it seems to me that up until recently this was simply not talked about much. while every sane person would agree csa is an egregiously sick crime, i think many people who haven’t experienced it simply haven’t thought much about it all, whether deeply or in a mere cursory way. it’s all very much hidden away, so they’re not confronted with it.

    up until recently, many people have tended to think about sexual abuse casually, in stereotypes:

    the stereotype that teen age girls are lusty and eager to sexually explore — so it can’t have been all that bad for them

    the stereotype that women like sexual attention and consider it a compliment, from any man — so it can’t have been all that bad for them

    the stereotype that men act — so we can’t really blame them for acting, they’re just being men — and this is what it means to be a man

    the stereotype that women passively receive, and consider it affirming & fulfilling to receive, from any man — but yes, we can blame them for not wanting to receive, since they are afterall women — and this is what it means to be a woman
    .
    .
    …all of which are non-thinkingly stupid. not so much evil or wicked, but willing ignorant morons.

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  27. Beakerj,

    Thank you for your kind comment. I don’t know what’s worse. The Frank Turk thing on Twitter turned my stomach. I still can’t believe that a sane individual would say what he did about me on Twitter. The infamous letter resulted in something very good happening to me. I now have the support of my pastors. That doesn’t mean they agree with everything I write. It means they get what I’m doing.

    The stuff behind the scenes is a bit weird and revolting. The commentary reminds me of Frank Turk’s famous last words on Twitter. The individual(s) who write this stuff appear to be mentally unbalanced. That’s why I’m keeping the evidence.

    It is difficult to understand how those who profess to be theological wiz kids could be so sick and evil. I believe that the organization to which they belong must in some way encourage this sort of behavior. I wonder how long ARBCA will be around?

    However, there is a reason that my husband and I got our concealed carry permit. I hate guns and even holding one was difficult for me. For what it’s worth, I was told I’m a good shot. I hope I never have to prove that .

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  28. Some people have asked me if believe this could be Tom Chantry. Since the comments have continued since he has been put in the slammer, I would doubt it. However, early on I did consider that possibility.

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  29. ishy,

    Phil Johnson was none to please with me when I commented to one of his tweets saying something like Real slander as opposed to pretend slander was well exemplified by your former sidekick. You should be glad that he wasn’t taken to court.” Phil was not pleased I brought that up.

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  30. Samuel Conner: They wanted to give TJC his life back, apparently assuming that the matter would remain concealed “forever.” As so often happens, trying to achieve one thing leads to the opposite; had they performed their duty and notified the authorities, TJC might now be nearing the end of a prison term imposed in the early 2000s, and really would be getting his life back — instead it appears that his grey head may go down to Sheol in sorrow, and justly so. God is not mocked.

    Yes, and many of the vulnerable would have been protected and enabled to live normal childhoods.

    They should have taken Prov 19:19 to heart: “A hot-tempered person must pay the penalty; rescue them, and you will have to do it again.”

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  31. Mr. Jesperson: You are assuming that these were written by a man but they have a kind of childish quality. Given the nature of the Internet, they could be written by anyone. It could be a kid, a teenager, or even someone old with some form of dementia.

    I can’t see anyone in these groups being motivated to do this. This person is obviously very identified with Chantry and upset that his actions have been revealed.

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  32. dee: Yes, it is stalking behavior. It is also a sign of some serious psychiatric problems.

    Do you think it would be wise to (or have you already) report these to LE? They have ways of tracking down where emails came from.

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  33. SiteSeer: I can’t see anyone in these groups being motivated to do this. This person is obviously very identified with Chantry and upset that his actions have been revealed.

    I still think the person was drunk or on drugs or both, and may very well have been Chantry himself.

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  34. TS00: It is difficult to process. How can a person present one image, speaking, writing and teaching things of God, which may be sound, yet have this terrible, secret, second nature? And yet, we have seen it again and again.

    I do not think the average, basically honest person can easily grasp this. I’m no saint, but this stuff blows my mind. I find myself no longer able to trust many people, especially once they show signs of insincerity or a desire to manipulate what people think of them. And why does it appear to be especially common in christian families who are extremely fundamental and legalistic?

    I hate to have to say that this kind of BPD or extreme narcissism seems increasingly prevalent in young people who were raised in very strict, legalistic homes. Is it that physical or sexual abuse was also present, or is it that this strict, authoritarian upbringing is abusive in itself? How many of these parents were practicing the strict, cruel spanking of infants, and what does that do to a child? How many were practicing the strict, and equally cruel, control of everything a child thinks, says or does?

    I have lots of unanswered questions.

    The dude who founded the Legionaries of Christ is a prime example of this. First name Marcel; drawing a blank on the last name; I think it was Maciel. Yes, pretty sure that was it.

    He fooled a lot of people with his pious posturing and apparent orthodoxy, but he was a monster. Probably one of the most evil men who ever lived. No exaggeration.

    When St Paul talks about “the mystery of iniquity, ” he’s not kidding. Sometimes it really is a mystery.

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  35. ishy,

    Perusing the comments over at Thou Art the Man, there are people who are defending TJC or criticizing his critics right now, who are unlikely to be TJC.

    The IP address in the graphic currently points to a location in Ohio. Depending on the timing, TJC may already have been in custody.

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  36. I poked around Google a little, looking for what I thought was a book-length treatment (that I remember encountering referenced in comments somewhere — perhaps here at TWW) of the “discipline of children” texts in Proverbs that argued that the corporal punishment texts were last resorts to rescue children heading into criminality.

    Didn’t find it, but I noticed that the “hear my wisdom” agenda at the beginning of Proverbs gets heavy right away:

    Literally the very first specific admonition in chapter 1 is to not conspire to murder and robbery (starting at 1:10):

    My son, if sinful men entice you,
    do not give in to them.

    If they say, “Come along with us;
    let’s lie in wait for innocent blood,
    let’s ambush some harmless soul;

    let’s swallow them alive, like the grave,
    and whole, like those who go down to the pit;

    we will get all sorts of valuable things
    and fill our houses with plunder;

    cast lots with us;
    we will all share the loot”—

    my son, do not go along with them,
    do not set foot on their paths;

    In a culture in which there was not a system of protective custody, and not much if any formal local law enforcement, I can see how extreme in-home measures might be appropriate to prevent a child from committing a crime that would lead to someone else’s death and to their own exposure to a capital penalty.

    IIRC, in the “rod of punishment drives away folly” teaching, one is justified to strike children for offenses as trivial as not being cheerful in performance of a command — which is interpreted to be a form of defiance. This will, of course, seem deeply unjust to the child.
    What happens when a child is repeatedly exposed to behaviors that communicate that the infliction of unjust punishment is a privilege of authority?

    I suspect that TT’s and similar ideas have done a world of harm, and perhaps have damaged the consciences of many children. Perhaps he realizes this. Another grey head that may be justly bowing with sorrow.

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  37. Samuel Conner: IIRC, at the core of TT’s book was a concern that children learn proper respect for all the various authorities they will encounter throughout life (the parents being the first and primary ones throughout childhood). Given the severe consequences for disregard of the more powerful authorities one will deal with later in life, it’s a valid concern.

    In retrospect, I think that “fear of punishment” is not a great way to motivate people. If parents and children deeply love each other, one would hope that the parents’ disapproval itself would be a significant deterrent to misbehavior.

    And, of course, if “fear of punishment” is how you view all the authorities in your life, that will certainly carry over into how you view “the church” and God Himself.

    And if one views “authority” through the lens of “fear of punishment”, that may have the effect of reducing one’s willingness to challenge illegitimate uses of authority, of which there are plenty, both inside and outside the churches.

    You are spot on. I do agree that a proper respect for appropriate authority is beneficial. However, unquestioning acceptance of any and all authority, however inappropriate, is extremely harmful.

    As I had not read the book, I assumed it was simply this that it was attempting to convey. But looking back, and seeing the many abuses that arose from the use of this book, I suspect something was amiss. I am going to have to get the book, which I may even own somewhere, and read it to see how it strikes me now. (No pun intended.)

    I also agree with your suggestion that the ‘spare the rod’ concept was geared toward older, rebellious youths who knew right from wrong but deliberately chose to do evil.

    I don’t know if the book teaches it, but the Calvinistic concept of being born Totally Depraved lends itself to a serious and potentially harmful view of children’s immaturity. When I looked at my tiny people I did not see demons, but little, immature people who loved me and simply did not yet know what was appropriate. I viewed it as my job to gently, patiently teach them.

    I cannot imagine how different it might have been if I had been persuaded that my children were innately evil from birth and needed to have the wickedness beaten out of them. Thank God I never viewed my precious little ones like that. I was more concerned with the selfishness I needed to root out of me, and having dependent souls who I loved more than life itself helped tremendously.

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  38. Samuel Conner: Perusing the comments over at Thou Art the Man, there are people who are defending TJC or criticizing his critics right now, who are unlikely to be TJC.

    He was out on bond at that time. Not that I am certain it was him, but I would argue that the bad grammar of the individual does not mean it wasn’t one him or one of the Pyro guys, but that it’s possible they were not sober.

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  39. TS00,

    Not looking for accolades. I still view myself as a very inadequate parent at best. But I cling to the promise that love covers a multitude of sins. The love I can assuredly profess. Unfortunately, the sins have to be acknowledged as well. I think they are pretty super young adults, albeit no more perfect than I.

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  40. TS00,

    I think the book is worth reading, if only to understand one facet of “how we got where we are” in the churches.

    It has been decades since I read it, and many of the details are fuzzy. I think (and this seems highly likely, as I have a much stronger recollection of his brother Paul’s approach to counseling, and TT was/is similar to PT) that there was a significant interest in understanding the “why” of children’s behavior, and trying to direct that into virtuous paths (hence the title of the book).

    There was IIRC a pretty strong emphasis against using discipline simply to control undesired behavior, on the theory that if the structure of a child’s motivations was bad and remained bad, the behavioral restraint would last only as long as the child was young enough to remain under the parent’s control.

    This aspect of the book made a lot of sense to me. Ironically, I was raised in a home in which the parents were too busy too invest a lot of time in understanding us, and “behavior control” was the norm, and there was a lot of paddling as punishment for disobedience. But we knew that our parents loved us and I don’t think there was much lasting damage from the corporal aspect of the “behavior control.” We knew we were loved.

    It has been remarked over at TAtM that in a number of jailhouse recordings that have been admitted into evidence, TJC receives verbal expressions of love but does not reciprocate them. That seems odd; perhaps its simply a quirk of personality or maybe a hint of something more profound like narcissism, but I wonder what his childhood was like. This is not to excuse the crimes, but wondering if there is more than meets the eye that might help to understand them. TJC made his choices and is responsible for them, but what were the influences that helped to shape him into the person he became?

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  41. TS00: When we were in the early days of homeschooling, Ted Tripp’s ‘Shepherding a Child’s Heart’ was all the rage (never read it) and appears to have led to a widespread practice of spanking extremely young children. This stuff was big in homeschooling circles, Sovereign Grace circles and I’m guessing ARBCA circles. Wasn’t Tripp one of those who investigated Chantry’s actions?

    Bill Gothard’s outfit has Tedd Tripp’s book on clearance:

    https://store.iblp.org/shepherding-a-childs-heart.html

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  42. Similar stuff from Walt Chantry:

    http://www.chantry-sermons.com/children_in_worship.htm

    “In our church, parents usually begin to bring their children into our services at the age of two…Two-year-olds are not old enough to understand why they must be still and quiet”

    “The only way to establish obedience in a child is to punish each and every wilful disobedience to a command. It begins when the parent says ‘no’ to touching an expensive lamp. If the child touches it, the fingers should be smacked hard enough that a few repeat punishments will bring obedience. Each time the child asserts his will against a command he must be made to obey…the rod cannot be spared or the child will be spoiled and parents will not have their children under control.”

    “If this pattern of enforcing commands is established at home, then bringing a child to church is merely a new series of orders given. When the child has been told to be quiet, if he speaks out, a hasty exit to another room for a spanking will make the point…It is indispensable to the parents’ good that they worship…the only issue with the child is that Mom and Dad have commanded submission. This is done with young children only the by the rod (by spanking). It is …the foundation of self-control in later life.”

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  43. Beakerj: Most troll comments have a ‘childish’ quality- that is, a form of malicious glee that often we only see in public in little kids poking insects with a stick.

    The entire act of ‘trolling’ is by its nature childish, imo. However, it can be adult level dangerous, as we have seen over and over again sadly. I highly doubt there are any children who care enough about a random pastor convicted of this stuff to troll like this.

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  44. Also, lots of catechism memorization is advised:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16IvNCpzYAE

    Walt Chantry: “The Puritans who lived in the 1600s—the Westminster Assembly—they wrote the Westminster Shorter Catechism, the Longer Catechism, and the Confession of Faith… there was a lifestyle to the Puritans, and they deeply believed in catechizing their children…they began very early to train their children in sound doctrine not not by doctrinal dissertations but by catechism… that a method that is so useful to this day, to those who want to have a Christian household and want their children to grow up in the fear of God.”

    Article by son Tom Chantry from his now locked-down blog:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20180829160801/https://crbcviews.blogspot.com/2007/02/benefit-of-catechism.html

    “I grew up memorizing the Westminster Shorter Catechism, so I can tell you (and could from an early age) that ‘sin is any want of conformity unto or transgression of the Law of God’…I actually think about this particular catechism question quite a lot. I use it to resolve every ethical problem that arises…I know the questions to ask. I am not, consequently, bound to conform to the ever-changing definition of sin produced by society. I have an ethical system which binds me to God’s Law”

    “Because I had memorized the words as a child, and because children memorize so easily, I have always known the words. They are easily recalled each time I need to apply biblical ethics to a thorny question.”

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  45. Jerome: They are easily recalled each time I need to apply biblical ethics to a thorny question.

    Evidently the question of the righteousness of beating other people’s children didn’t rise to the level of examining against the catechism.

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  46. Jerome: I am not, consequently, bound to conform to the ever-changing definition of sin produced by society. I have an ethical system which binds me to God’s Law

    “Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fullfilment of the Law.”

    — Paul

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  47. Mr. Jesperson: This is part of the real problem with an anonymous Internet like we currently have. I suspect that the ability to remain anonymous will eventually stop with changes in laws.

    I hope not. The anonymity of the Internet has its problems, but there are positive aspects to it, as well. Daisy has mentioned a few times that using her real name online left her open to the unwanted attention of stalkers. The ability to post under a screen handle allowed her to participate in discussions, while protecting herself. Speaking for myself, I’m glad that she’s had that opportunity.

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  48. From the OP:

    He became so incensed that I stood by my coverage that the decided to accuse me of something despicable that he knew was a lie.

    I’ve faced similar behaviour just this day. It began when I recently noticed a post on Facebook, in which a well-known theologian and talking head wrote on the recent trend of transvestites reading storybooks to kids at local libraries. In addition to the horror he voiced in his post, he and other commenters appeared to advocate violence against drag queens who attempt to approach kids.

    I responded by asking questions, trying to ascertain their position and their reasons for it. I mentioned the case of Chantry and other infamous predator pastors, who actually had hurt kids and yet who had never dressed up as women (that we know of), and asked why dressing in drag alone should be an indicator of danger to children. After a few days of back and forth, the original poster voiced his suspicion that I was sexually interested in kids.

    Needless to say, this really knocked me back on my heels. I don’t think it rises to the same level as Turk’s accusation against Dee, but I still find it shocking. I was already considering a report to Facebook for advocating violence, but I think this guy just sealed the deal for me.

    (Note to Dee and GBTC: Please feel free to delete if this is too far off topic. I am seeking support and any advice that friends can offer, but I don’t want to make this post all about me. Thanks.)

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  49. Serving Kids in Japan,

    How awful.

    People will say the most terrible things online with anonymity but many will say them in person to. As a man speaks, so is he. We are the same people, online or off, we just hide it better sometimes. Scary realization, when you see the pure hatred and disgusting comments rolling in. How many people do you know who think the same? Who act the same?

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  50. Jerome: From Walt Chantry: “It begins when the parent says ‘no’ to touching an expensive lamp. If the child touches it, the fingers should be smacked hard enough that a few repeat punishments will bring obedience.”

    This teaches children that they are less valuable than a lamp.

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  51. TS00: I also agree with your suggestion that the ‘spare the rod’ concept was geared toward older, rebellious youths who knew right from wrong but deliberately chose to do evil.

    I agree with your fuller comment but would like to explore the implications of this part. The text is ancient (there, I said it). Rebellion is subjective.

    In an abusive family, one or more children might be chosen to be marginalized and goaded. Let’s say it’s the oldest kid, who has to be kept in line so the younger ones all see what happens when you stamp your tiny foot and say No. That oldest child might very well turn into a “rebellious youth” and “force” the parents to punish him/her more and more. This very post talks about abuse survivors who engage in risky behavior. Some of that can be criminal in nature. At what point is the parental rod the answer?

    Meanwhile the siblings in that family witness the scapegoating and do everything in their power to survive. Maybe they did not feel the rod on their bottoms, but they are surely traumatized.

    I was the “good kid,” and I had escape routes and hiding places in the home. I even had one after marriage and did not realize this was abnormal.

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  52. TS00: I cannot imagine how different it might have been if I had been persuaded that my children were innately evil from birth and needed to have the wickedness beaten out of them. Thank God I never viewed my precious little ones like that. I was more concerned with the selfishness I needed to root out of me, and having dependent souls who I loved more than life itself helped tremendously.

    This is such a lovely perspective, and I am sure that your children benefited. It’s a humble approach. Unfortunately some churches teach parents not to be humble, but to avoid humiliation. Those same churches are all too ready to humiliate.

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  53. Serving Kids in Japan,

    I think your comment is relevant. It has been my experience that many fundies, as well as non religious individuals, when “loosing” an argument, will attack personally the “accuser/questioner”. This is a standard tactic…. that is what they did to Dee, that is what this OP is about ( attack the character of the accuser, never mind what Chantry did!), and that is what they did to you. That is what “slut” shaming is all about.
    I have had it used on me with respect Young Earth Creationism to many times to count.

    I am really coming to the conclusion that so many of the “pious” fundies/evangelicals/ neoCal are just as worldly as “the world” when it comes to any question of significant issues… they immediately attack the individual…. we currently have a President who is a master at it!

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  54. TS00: I also agree with your suggestion that the ‘spare the rod’ concept was geared toward older, rebellious youths who knew right from wrong but deliberately chose to do evil.

    Youths who considered themselves restless and reformed, but were nonetheless merely arrogant and rebellious, perhaps.

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  55. Friend: Rebellion is subjective.

    More and more I think we need to look at how trauma informs behavior, instead of this bad kid/good kid dichotomy that ends up being a self fulfilling prophecy at times.

    Consequences are important, and I don’t know the best way to balance these things. Consequences shouldn’t be wildly disproportionate to the offense, and that might help, and consequences for an abuser or bully might help stop that behavior? Of course, if the family are the source of the abuse they are actively creating unhealthy dynamics and maybe the only way to fix them is to remove the children, which has its own issues sometimes.

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  56. Samuel Conner: IIRC, in the “rod of punishment drives away folly” teaching, one is justified to strike children for offenses as trivial as not being cheerful in performance of a command — which is interpreted to be a form of defiance. This will, of course, seem deeply unjust to the child.
    What happens when a child is repeatedly exposed to behaviors that communicate that the infliction of unjust punishment is a privilege of authority?

    This is an excellent observation. I have a youth handbook full of “wisdom principles” that drives even adults into depression. The punishment is being on the “bad” side of the youth leaders, lost the “previlige” to development God given gifts, silently being isolated with lots of pressure to conforms to the will of the leaders.

    In regarding to ARBCA, my wife and I are friends with a couple who in the past couple of years attended David Dykstra’s church in Willis, TX. My wife had a phone conversation with friend’s wife and the subject of sexual abuse came up. Long story short, our friend was told NOT to read or believe online blogs and they should not get into “gossip”.

    They were NOT inform that TJC was being sue! They were given the impression that the guy being sue was a nobody!

    There was not a drop of integrity and honesty. Dykstra intentionally kept them blind.

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  57. Lea: More and more I think we need to look at how trauma informs behavior,

    There is significant movement in this direction in the secular mental health field; I think it is known as “trauma-informed care.” It’s disheartening to think that some of the trauma that is dealt with in “trauma-informed care” happened “in (or under the cover of) the name of Christ.”

    Not sure that the churches are not falling further and further behind in their understanding of people.

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  58. Samuel Conner: There is significant movement in this direction in the secular mental health field; I think it is known as “trauma-informed care.”

    Absolutely there is! Have you seen the ted talk about aces scores? This stuff is so important and I think until recently we have not really been talking about it nearly enough.

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  59. Samuel Conner: Not sure that the churches are not falling further and further behind in their understanding of people.

    It is a huge problem when churches self separate and condemn everything outside of them as ‘worldly’, while they are trying to be ‘in but not of’ it. This isn’t new, but its’ clearly a problem and the longer it goes on the worse it gets.

    A lot of these issues we see with abuse and the treatment of women are not limited to churches, they are the wider world. But it’s to say the least disturbing to see it promoted as godly and to see people being duped.

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  60. Samuel Conner: IIRC, at the core of TT’s book was a concern that children learn proper respect for all the various authorities they will encounter throughout life (the parents being the first and primary ones throughout childhood).

    I have read the book awhile back. If my memory serves me right, I think your summary is spot on. This thought came to my mind after reading the book – “this book in the wrong type of person will be taken to the direction not intended and really harm kids.”

    I pretty much took the part that I need to really know the heart of my kids and adjust my interaction with them as they grows older. I dropped everything else from the book.

    Among the “church” people that read the book, I often heard the phrase “my kids are little sinners too.” My wife and I ABSOLUTELY HATED hearing other parents say that. Even though the reality is that everybody is a sinner but Jesus never address kids that way in the Bible. He welcomes them into his arms. He praise them to the point that adults should be like kids to enter Kingdom of God and not despise them or seeing them as trouble makers.

    I still believe strongly the book is bad in the wrong type of people who are extremely task oriented and not relational. I can see in my mind’s eye that they will hurt a 3 year old by reading that he/she is defiant and rebellious. With the support of the book, claiming it is for the good of the kid.

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  61. Samuel Conner: a concern that children learn proper respect for all the various authorities they will encounter throughout life (the parents being the first and primary ones throughout childhood). Given the severe consequences for disregard of the more powerful authorities one will deal with later in life, it’s a valid concern.

    Babies show a limited number of temperaments early on, sometimes expressed as easy/flexible; active/feisty, and slow to warm or cautious. Some small children are more impulsive than others. Some babies will crawl toward a loud noise, and others will cling to a grownup.

    Good luck trying to cram that into a tiny sliver of acceptable behavior. The parents with easygoing kids, who will dress identically and sit still, look like geniuses in the disciplinary department. The family with wiggly or stubborn kids is more likely to be marginalized.

    It’s better to understand and honor tendencies that children are born with. Yes, the shy one needs to speak up, the feisty one needs to obey, and the impulsive one needs to think before acting. And the human brain keeps developing until those babies are in their late teens and early twenties.

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  62. Dee,

    I mean this facetiously. Wasn’t John MacArthur quoted not too long ago as saying, “These are the best of times for us, and we know that because the enemy’s working so hard. That’s always a good indicator of the direction we’re going in.” (http://thewartburgwatch.com/2018/08/24/john-macarthurs-son-in-laws-alleged-compensation-for-video-production-and-macarthurs-alleged-comments-during-a-meeting-with-seminary-students/)

    Seriously, thank you for what you do, especially in light of what is going on behind the scenes.

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  63. Sowre-sweet Dayes: I pretty much took the part that I need to really know the heart of my kids and adjust my interaction with them as they grows older. I dropped everything else from the book.

    I’d say you read it more wisely than I did.

    Friend,

    I agree. I think that one of the things that helped TT’s book to be so influential is that it spoke to a perceived need within the church communities he was addressing — what can I do to increase the likelihood that my children will ‘get saved?’ In amongst the array of authorities that confront a child and, later, adult is the biggest Authority of all, God. The horizon of Proverbs is thoroughly “under the sun”, but it’s easy for modern believers reading it to see sayings like (paraphrased from memory) “correction will save a child from death” as having a larger significant — “correction will save a child from damnation”.

    As you wrote above, “it’s an ancient text”. I suspect that the doctrine of the “perspicuity of Scripture” has done its share of harm in encouraging people to make simplistic applications of ancient texts, that we confidently reckon we deeply understand in our English translations, to the present time.

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  64. Samuel Conner: As you wrote above, “it’s an ancient text”. I suspect that the doctrine of the “perspicuity of Scripture” has done its share of harm in encouraging people to make simplistic applications of ancient texts, that we confidently reckon we deeply understand in our English translations, to the present time.

    Anybody who’s been beat over the head with:

    “Well… It’s obvious you don’t believe God’s Word…”

    Will agree that your comment is true

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  65. On a side note, but somewhat related to BECAUSE BIBLE…

    Just saw a SBC church website claim that women can be in ministry BECAUSE BIBLE AND WAYNE GRUDEM!

    I am seriously laughing. I guess they didn’t read Grudem all that carefully…

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  66. Jeffrey Chalmers: I have experienced that!

    Let me be clear.

    I believe the Bible stands alone in its uniqueness so far as holy books go, and that it has No Equal on the planet.

    I also think that it suffers from the same two ills as Science; not giving it the credence it deserves at one extreme, and making way too much of it at the other.

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  67. Bridget:
    Who ever this HaHa is, he/she is an immature bully. It’s hard to believe that this so calledHaHa person is “Christian.” They obviously don’t know that love is a hallmark of a Christian.

    The name reminds me of that WW2 figure, “Lord Haw Haw” who did German propaganda broadcasts targeted at England.

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  68. Lea: Samuel Conner: In retrospect, I think that “fear of punishment” is not a great way to motivate people.

    I think it just leads them to lie, a lot of the time.

    Oh, it motivates them.
    Motivates them to “Don’t Get Caught”.

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  69. Samuel Conner: And, of course, if “fear of punishment” is how you view all the authorities in your life, that will certainly carry over into how you view “the church” and God Himself.

    Which expresses itself in “Avoid Punishment At All Costs”.

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  70. Jeffrey Chalmers: I am really coming to the conclusion that so many of the “pious” fundies/evangelicals/ neoCal are just as worldly as “the world” when it comes to any question of significant issues…

    They just slap a Pious coat of paint on top of it.

    “He is a very pious man; that much one sees when both his eyes are closed. Ha, but piety and goodness are not necessarily the same. By no means. Gilles de Rais, the greatest monster ever clothed in flesh, he was a pious man, but far from being good. Cotton Mather, who hanged poor, inoffensive women on the gallows tree, he was a pious man; so was Torquemada, who fouled the pure air of heaven with the burnings of the luckless Jews of Spain. They all were pious — too pious to be truly good, parbleau!”
    — Seabury Quinn, “The Dark Angel” (Jules de Grandin pulp mystery, Weird Tales 1932)

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  71. Samuel Conner: What happens when a child is repeatedly exposed to behaviors that communicate that the infliction of unjust punishment is a privilege of authority?

    Check the psych profile and career of a certain A.Hitler for a type example.

    “All the lonely,
    So long and so long,
    You don’t know
    How I long, how I long,
    You can’t hold me,
    I’m Strong now, I’m Strong,
    Stronger than your law!”
    — Al Stewart, “The Last Day of June 1934”, Past, Present, and Future, 1973

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  72. Slightly off-topic: Is anyone here familiar with Calvary Bible Church in Fort Worth, Texas? A FB friend is a member there. From the website, it seems as if they are strong proponents of T4G and the Gospel Coalition. Also, they are Gospelly to the nth power.

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  73. Muff Potter: I believe the Bible stands alone in its uniqueness so far as holy books go, and that it has No Equal on the planet.

    I also think that it suffers from the same two ills as Science; not giving it the credence it deserves at one extreme, and making way too much of it at the other.

    I am reminded of two quotes by authors I have always respected…

    “But herein is the Bible itself greatly wronged. It nowhere lays claim to be regarded as the Word, the Way, the Truth. The Bible leads us to Jesus, the inexhaustible, the ever unfolding Revelation of God. It is Christ “in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge,” not the Bible, save as leading to Him.” – George MacDonald

    “It is Christ Himself, not the Bible, who is the true Word of God. The Bible, read in the right spirit and with the guidance of good teachers, will bring us to Him. We must not use the Bible as a sort of encyclopedia out of which texts can be taken for use as weapons.” – C S Lewis

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  74. Jerome: “The only way to establish obedience in a child is to punish each and every wilful disobedience to a command. It begins when the parent says ‘no’ to touching an expensive lamp. If the child touches it, the fingers should be smacked hard enough that a few repeat punishments will bring obedience. Each time the child asserts his will against a command he must be made to obey…the rod cannot be spared or the child will be spoiled and parents will not have their children under control.”

    “If this pattern of enforcing commands is established at home, then bringing a child to church is merely a new series of orders given. When the child has been told to be quiet, if he speaks out, a hasty exit to another room for a spanking will make the point…It is indispensable to the parents’ good that they worship…the only issue with the child is that Mom and Dad have commanded submission. This is done with young children only the by the rod (by spanking). It is …the foundation of self-control in later life.”

    “A new series of orders given”… and there you have the philosophy of life: it is a series of orders to be obeyed.

    Most of us remove expensive lamps so that our inquisitive toddlers can explore the world and learn about it. This is their work at that age, their lifelong understanding of the world will be built upon what they learn. They cannot learn if they must sit quietly and touch nothing. If they learn that life is about getting smacked constantly over things that make no sense to them, they end up like… well, like some people we discuss here.

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  75. SiteSeer: inquisitive toddlers

    My grandmother had a house full of old things, and put only a few items out of reach. She taught us the wonder of it all: how to hold our hands out gently, feel the texture of carved wood, carpeting, glaze. Outdoors she showed us how to look longer and see more; which plants to touch and which to leave alone. We learned how to pick berries carefully, so they would look perfect in the bowl.

    Small children love to squat down and stare at a beetle walking along. It’s often the adults who hurry them on to more important things.

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  76. ishy: Just saw a SBC church website claim that women can be in ministry BECAUSE BIBLE AND WAYNE GRUDEM!

    Ha!

    Meanwhile, I was just listening to a little family member tell me the dress code for 8 year old girls at baptist church camp and had to about bite my tongue off.

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  77. Lea: Meanwhile, I was just listening to a little family member tell me the dress code for 8 year old girls at baptist church camp and had to about bite my tongue off.

    One of the egalitarian Facebook groups I’m in talk about this quite a bit. Apparently, boys can do whatever they want, but girls have really strict and sometimes bizarre dress code rules. I remember one required girls to wear t-shirt and knee length shorts over swimsuits, even while swimming, but boys had no guidelines at all. There was another one about how they had these strict requirements for day camp pool trips, and then the staff had a freak out when local pool they used wouldn’t allow anything but swimsuits in the pool.

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  78. I don’t know anything about Tom Chantry and I don’t care to, so I can’t make any judgements about his “theological prowess”. It is apparent, however, that the people around him value adherence to TULIP over a moral life or a compassionate heart, which is a big problem for those who use the name of Christ.

    I don’t know what kind of faith Chantry or HaHa have, but Dee lives out her faith through her work on this blog. I know what I find more impressive.

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  79. ishy: I remember one required girls to wear t-shirt and knee length shorts over swimsuits, even while swimming

    Kids can die as a result of swimming with clothes on.

    Pardon me for repeating: Kids can die as a result of swimming with clothes on. That camp needs to put children’s lives ahead of insane double standards about modesty.

    Here’s a recent news story about brawny high school football players who sank in the deep end when required to doff and don sweaters while treading water. Three had to be rescued and revived. Fortunately no one died, because the lifeguard and assistant coaches dove in and pulled them out:

    https://usatodayhss.com/2019/alaska-high-school-football-players-hospitalized-near-drowning-team-building-exercise

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  80. Friend, that story is insane!

    Swimsuits exist for a reason. I had a friend at work whose grandparents when they were little used to make them wear dresses to the beach in florida because of ‘modesty’ and she was talking about how not only did they stand out (which is the opposite of modest!) but their dresses got wet and were completely see through. So it was stupid all around.

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  81. For girls and dress codes, there seems to be a weird obsession with sleeves, sleeveless, straps and the length of straps that I completely don’t get, especially for literal children who don’t even wear bras. Ugh.

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  82. I’m not sure if this vulnerability still exists as this work-around was published in 2008, but apparently there’s a way to see the real name behind the gmail. It didn’t work for me with the “Hahahaha” address but my techie husband tells me they could have taken other steps to obscure their identity. Might be worth trying with some of the other harassing emails you’ve been sent Dee…

    https://www.zdnet.com/article/finding-the-name-behind-the-gmail-address/

    Thanks for all you do! I’m a longtime reader but don’t comment often 🙂

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  83. I have come to realize that what people have to say regarding abusers and and their victims don’t mean jack! These supporters of pedophiles and rapist who speak in defense of them in the name of God have no substance and clearly don’t know my Savior. I don’t know why any response should be given to them. If people like this want to back abusers let them because it sure as heck going to be a wake up call if they ever have to answer or give an account. Bottom line is I don’t listen to church members or pastors who seem to think they know everything theologically. I trust very few however the ones I do trust and listen to know the Lord and actually practice what they say.

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  84. Bridget:
    Who ever this HaHa is, he/she is an immature bully. It’s hard to believe that this so calledHaHa person is “Christian.” They obviously don’t know that love is a hallmark of a Christian.

    Bridget, I would venture to say that their idea of what constitutes love is quite different from yours. Such people would defend bullying behavior because in their mind the victims deserve it.

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  85. roebuck: There’s even a name for it – “bibliolatry”. And it’s no uncommon.

    Yes. I was guilty of it myself, for a while…as I was taught to do. I have gotten ‘in trouble’ for taking it off the pedestal it is on. People accuse you of attacking the book as if you were dethroning God. Quite the opposite, actually. I am removing the book and placing God front and center, where He belongs. 🙂

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  86. Headless Unicorn Guy: That just sounds disturbingly KINKY.

    I did not find the story at the site that Guest linked, so don’t know the details, but it might simply be “power relations”, AKA “cruelty flows downhill”. As mentioned in the OP, one of the TJC victims developed a bullying behavior pattern, which might have been a way of dealing with the cruelty to which he was subjected by TJC.

    It’s a little frightening to think of the harm that can be inflicted on children, but the flip side is that one can also model grace and kindness. I scratch my head that the human race still seems to be at an early stage in its work on this project; haven’t figured it out in the tens of thousands of years we’ve been at it; are still weeding out bad practices. But then we’re still figuring out how to “be the church”, too. Culture improves at a glacial pace, I guess.

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  87. Lea: there seems to be a weird obsession with sleeves, sleeveless

    Indeed, on an old episode of the Duggar show it was discussed how glimpses of the sleeval region were a concern:

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3b16z2
    skip to 05:30

    [JimBob and Michelle are in New York for an appearance on “The View”; back in the Ozarks Grandma Duggar lets the children watch it on a portable TV. Suddenly, Joy Duggar claps her hand across the tiny screen]

    “Producer: ‘Grandma, what is Joy doing right now? Why is her hand on the TV?’

    Grandma Duggar: ‘Oh, she’s covering up the immodest dress. She’s been trained to do that for the boys.'”

    “Producer: ‘Why did you cover up the television with your hand for the little boys?’

    Joy Duggar: ‘Because it was defrauding.’

    Producer: ‘What does that mean?’

    Joy Duggar: It means, like, they’re not dressed very good. I mean, like, it’s like, I don’t know how to explain it though.'”

    sister Jana offers that Joy is concerned that her brothers not see bare arms:

    Jana Duggar: “…like, where if a girl’s sleeveless.”

    Producer: “And why can’t the boys see that?”

    Joy Duggar: ‘Umm. . .cause it’s bad?'”

    Jana goes on to reveal how they signal their brothers to avert their eyes to their tennis shoes when out in public:

    “Jana Duggar: ‘If we’re walking past a girl that is immodestly dressed, we’ll call out “Nike!” and all the boys will immediately put their heads down and just walk past quickly…It’s our code word.'”

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  88. Jerome: “Producer: ‘Why did you cover up the television with your hand for the little boys?’

    Joy Duggar: ‘Because it was defrauding.’

    that poor little girl was given the responsibility of ‘protecting’ her brothers from something she isn’t even old enough to understand.

    And ‘defauding’ is the worst word. Poor kids.

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  89. Lea: that poor little girl was given the responsibility of ‘protecting’ her brothers from something she isn’t even old enough to understand.

    And ‘defauding’ is the worst word. Poor kids.

    She knows her catechism well.
    “Defauding” — pure Christianese.

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  90. Jeannette Altes: “It is Christ Himself, not the Bible, who is the true Word of God. The Bible, read in the right spirit and with the guidance of good teachers, will bring us to Him. We must not use the Bible as a sort of encyclopedia out of which texts can be taken for use as weapons.” – C S Lewis

    Then Lewis would have failed that trick question from my time in-country.
    Epic Failed.

    The Twentysomething Elder would hold up a Bible and ask “What is This?”

    If you answered “a Bible”, WRONG ANSWER.
    Twentysomething Elder would shake the Bible in your face and yell “THIS! IS! THE! WORD! OF! GOD!!!!!!”

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  91. Lea: And ‘defrauding’ is the worst word. Poor kids.

    Deliberate confusion, in my view. The girls were stealing something from the boys by wearing sleeveless blouses. The boys had to protect themselves from fraud by looking at their shoes. (Gosh, if only I could protect my credit by looking at my shoes…)

    Back in the day, shunning at Bob Jones was called “socializing.” A friend who went there got socialized when someone reported her for holding hands with her fiance. My friend had to eat meals alone in the cafeteria, and her roommate was not allowed to speak to her. I think the socializing/socialism lasted two weeks.

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  92. Friend: Back in the day, shunning at Bob Jones was called “socializing.”

    For real? That’s orwellian, legitimately.

    The idea that women are stealing something from men (or boys from girls) by existing in the world is gross. My understanding is that ‘defrauding’ came from that creepy old dude whose name i’m forgetting that the duggers love. Maybe they should unpack that a little bit? Consider the source here.

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  93. Lea: My understanding is that ‘defrauding’ came from that creepy old dude whose name i’m forgetting that the duggers love.

    Bill Gothard, his name was. Although “creepy old dude” works just as well for me.

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  94. Lea: The idea that women are stealing something from men (or boys from girls) by existing in the world is gross. My understanding is that ‘defrauding’ came from that creepy old dude whose name i’m forgetting that the duggers love. Maybe they should unpack that a little bit? Consider the source here.

    Gothard. These folks were big on Dougie Phillips too. The very word ‘defrauding’ gives me PTSD symptoms. And we were not even Gothardites; but so many of our friends were.

    One was a family with three of the loveliest girls, who eventually had to pretty much run away from home to get married. They were so guardedly not ‘defrauding’ the boys that every guy who came calling – and there were many – got chased away by Mom; and there was nothing they could do about it.

    I was very close to urging them to get out, or come live with us when they finally left on their own. The oldest, almost 30, finally ran off with the young man she liked, but who did not get Mom’s approval. I’m not sure her beautiful babies have ever met their grandmother. This stuff is so destructive.

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  95. Friend: Back in the day, shunning at Bob Jones was called “socializing.” A friend who went there got socialized when someone reported her for holding hands with her fiance. My friend had to eat meals alone in the cafeteria, and her roommate was not allowed to speak to her. I think the socializing/socialism lasted two weeks.

    That is evil, IMO.

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  96. Jerome: Grandma Duggar: ‘Oh, she’s covering up the immodest dress. She’s been trained to do that for the boys.’”

    “Producer: ‘Why did you cover up the television with your hand for the little boys?’

    Joy Duggar: ‘Because it was defrauding.’

    Aside from the obvious weirdness of this, the end result has got to be drawing their attention 100 times more than it would have been and creating a freakish obsession mixed with taboo. Not only would it create the very situation it’s ostensibly trying to avoid but would really accentuate it.

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  97. SiteSeer: Aside from the obvious weirdness of this, the end result has got to be drawing their attention 100 times more than it would have been and creating a freakish obsession mixed with taboo.

    “Don’t think of that Pink Elephant,
    Don’t think of that Pink Elephant,
    Don’t think of that Pink Elephant,
    Don’t think of that Pink Elephant…”

    Result: Pink Elephant Sexual Paraphilia/Fetish/Kink.

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