1

Sins of the pastors are visited on the flock, down to multiple generations.

But God is not mocked.

May the victims and their families find healing.

——–

I wonder if a civil action is warranted against the ARBCA personnel who concealed TJC’s crimes. It might be that a sooner resolution of this, with timely punishment of TJC, might have been better for the victims.

A commenter over at Thou Art the Man, was “in” to “HAHAHA”.

He commented under the named “Kevin”.

Perhaps just a coincidence.

Who ever this HaHa is, he/she is an immature bully. It’s hard to believe that this so called HaHa person is “Christian.” They obviously don’t know that love is a hallmark of a Christian.

I think this book quote is timely and very germane to the topic…
==================================================================

Father Sean O’Connell to his nephew Quinn O’Connell on the Church:

“Evil men attend church,” he went on.
“Evil men pray in synagogues, and evil men perform mutilations on women to the glory of Allah.
Evil men pay large sums for us to renew the leases on their consciences.
Men invented the system because they needed it, and the system, faulty as it is, works.”

—– From A God in Ruins by Leon Uris —–

It’s called projection. Mr. Ha ha is projecting his own thoughts and feelings on you. However devious or creepy his accusations are, know that he is revealing himself in each word.

I find it hard to believe he isn’t aware of how sexual abuse damage affects children. I’ll bet he’s well aware. It’s a tactic. Once children are damaged enough to act out, you can then use that against them to trap them in a vicious cycle and maintain power. It’s sick. But then, everyone involved in this grievous little group of supporters and enablers are sick.

Projection (defence mechanism)
Psychology
Psychological projection can be defined as unconsciously assuming that others share the same or similar thoughts, beliefs, values, or positions on any given subject. According to the theories of Sigmund Freud, it is a psychological defense mechanism whereby one “projects” one’s own undesirable thoughts, motivations, desires, feelings—basically parts of oneself—onto someone else. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others originate those feelings.. The principle of projection is well-established in psychology. The Psychology Wiki

Linn: HI, Dee-please take action if anything menacing comes along.

Indeed. Take care and keep good records.

This is absolutely appalling. I agree with SiteSeer, this is obvious projection.
It is amazing to me that when injustice and abuse is revealed and exposed, whether it be a child or an adult, the initial and continuous reaction of those in support of the abuser is to condemn the victim. Even more uphauling, is that these so-called supporters call themselves Christians and people of God. They quite obviously read a different version of the bible or do not read it at all.

Haha is obviously a bully hiding behind the guise of anonymity…..a coward with no back-bone, spine or conscience. Galatians 5 must be missing or non-existent in the bible he apparently doesn’t own! ARBCA needs to start preaching Galatians 5:13-26.

The church should lift up, edify and love. The church should restore the broken, the hurt and the fallen, not condemn, ostracize or malign.

It takes a lot for someone to come out and publicly expose something that was privately done to them. It is not easy and it makes you publicly vulnerable. Those who vehemently protect the abusers, I have discovered, are very much aware of a deeper systematic problem, which they are desperately trying to cover up in a bid to protect the corrupt institution that they are a part of. It has been a big part of their lives for so long and have no clue how they will survive if it no longer exists.

Continue exposing and disgracing Dee, and protect yourself from these cowards. Those that are for you are far greater than those that are against you.

Bridget,

Bridget,
You hit on a reoccurring theme that I have observed over the years… Many, but not all, of the most “fundamentalist/strident/verse quoting activist/etc” that I have know can be downright mean to any opposition…. just the opposite of what Christ calls his followers to be…. I use to really scratch my head about it…. but, now that I have lived long enough for my hair to be totally grey, and work in the secular-humanist world longer than I was in the fundy “bubble” I realize that some of these “individuals” probably have mental disorders for which religion provides a means for the expression of the disorder….. i.e. obsession to always be correct, always be in control, always have everything figured out, etc, etc… I see very similar behavior in my secular-humanist world, just using ones specific disciple, or general intellectual endeavors, or political party, or life philosophy as their “religion”.
As Max might say….. their is no spirit of G$d in them….

Even with limited knowledge and experience with those who have been abused as children I am well aware that their lives can be greatly traumatized. Yes, some will turn to drugs, promiscuity or crime. I am not excusing their crimes, but it must also be understood that a wounded life does not negate the fact that a person was abused as a child.

It is tragic, but not surprising that some who were traumatized as children act out their anguish and despair in self-harming ways. It seems that abusers oftentimes prey upon those who have already suffered abuse, knowing that they are vulnerable to being further manipulated.

Who in their right mind would think ‘Look, this person’s life is such a mess, they could not possibly have been abused’? I am sorry for this person’s trauma, and for the choices that have led them into self harm. I pray that they receive the help they need to recover from the voices and memories that haunt them.

TS00,

Agreed.

I hope I don’t cause offense in mentioning this, but the point has been raised in prior threads (and perhaps over at TAtM) that one might wonder “how did TJC himself turn out like this?” A TAtM commenter who claimed to have known TJC since childhood wrote that even as a child, he was “in” to punishing children. Where did that come from?

Raised in a strict home, in a culture in which corporal punishment is regarded to have biblical warrant (“folly is bound up in the heart of child; the rod will drive it far away”) as an indispensible instrument for the formation of Godly character in children, it’s not hard to wonder whether TJC himself was subjected to significant corporal punishment “for his own good.” If that’s right and has some explanatory power, it could nevertheless not have been brought up at trial or sentencing as a mitigating factor without having the effect of admitting to the validity of the charges.

This might be an example of the behavior of the fathers having implications that echo down to multiple generations.

Samuel Conner,

I read a story at https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/ about a little boy who would tell his little sister if she let him whip her when he caught her doing things the parents wouldn’t like he would not tell the parents.

Guest:
Samuel Conner,

I read a story at https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/ about a little boy who would tell his little sister if she let him whip her when he caught her doing things the parents wouldn’t like he would not tell the parents.

If that story is true and the brother’s offer was appealing, one shudders to think what the parents were doing to both of them.

TS00,

Yes, it was Tedd Tripp, author of “Shepherding a Child’s Heart” and perhaps by virtue of that ABRCA’s in-house expert on the use of “the rod” as an instrument of Godly character formation in the young, who formed one-third of the “informal council.” I’ve wondered whether his views on “discipline of the young” influenced his inclination to “show mercy” to TJC.

It has been argued that the famous “rod will drive folly from the heart of child text” was not in context intended to be a warrant for “first resort” discipline by beating. Perhaps it was parallel to the “a rod for the backs of fools” proverb, and was meant as a last-resort for children who gave unmistakeable evidence of criminality. I think there’s a book-length treatment of this out there.

I did read TT’s book, decades ago, and was not troubled by it at the time. This may have been due in part to my own up-bringing, and my parents’.

IIRC, at the core of TT’s book was a concern that children learn proper respect for all the various authorities they will encounter throughout life (the parents being the first and primary ones throughout childhood). Given the severe consequences for disregard of the more powerful authorities one will deal with later in life, it’s a valid concern.

In retrospect, I think that “fear of punishment” is not a great way to motivate people. If parents and children deeply love each other, one would hope that the parents’ disapproval itself would be a significant deterrent to misbehavior.

And, of course, if “fear of punishment” is how you view all the authorities in your life, that will certainly carry over into how you view “the church” and God Himself.

And if one views “authority” through the lens of “fear of punishment”, that may have the effect of reducing one’s willingness to challenge illegitimate uses of authority, of which there are plenty, both inside and outside the churches.

Brian,

Is there a similar study done for the males?

Mr. Jesperson,

Why are you minimising what is being done here? Most troll comments have a ‘childish’ quality- that is, a form of malicious glee that often we only see in public in little kids poking insects with a stick. Here on the internet grown adults sound like that as no-one knows who they are.
Now, I am never ever ever going to be accused of being a good Christian, except maybe in the burning love I have for the suffering, vulnerable & poor, but your comments are coming across as extremely odd, weirdly flat & depersonalised, & attempting to micro-manage Dee’s ‘Christian’ response on her own blog. You’re not, afaik, her Pastor? What gives? In instructing others – implicitly – not to be judgemental I’m not sure you realise how judgemental you’re being. And clearly that now extends to me, judging you, & that’s fine, like I say I’m not very good at this stuff so your criticism will join my own.

Dee- what’s worse than getting that stuff behind the scenes? Getting that stuff behind hte scenes, & Mr Jesperson in front of the scenes 😉

Brian,

I definitely think the incident with the letters was outright stalking. At the time, though, there were multiple Chantry-fan trolls here, and a few others posting on their own blogs against dee and other watch bloggers, so hard to tell who it was.

TS00: we certainly bought into the concept of training our children from a very young age – but not with spanking.

Some Christian parents believe they are required by God to spank their children. I’ll point out (not for the first time) that it is illegal in many states for adoptive parents to spank adopted children. Adoptive parents have to choose between what they might consider God’s law and state law.

To my knowledge, there is no proof that adopted children who were not spanked have bad outcomes.

Samuel Conner: They wanted to give TJC his life back, apparently assuming that the matter would remain concealed “forever.” As so often happens, trying to achieve one thing leads to the opposite; had they performed their duty and notified the authorities, TJC might now be nearing the end of a prison term imposed in the early 2000s, and really would be getting his life back — instead it appears that his grey head may go down to Sheol in sorrow, and justly so. God is not mocked.

Yes, and many of the vulnerable would have been protected and enabled to live normal childhoods.

They should have taken Prov 19:19 to heart: “A hot-tempered person must pay the penalty; rescue them, and you will have to do it again.”

dee: Yes, it is stalking behavior. It is also a sign of some serious psychiatric problems.

Do you think it would be wise to (or have you already) report these to LE? They have ways of tracking down where emails came from.

TS00: It is difficult to process. How can a person present one image, speaking, writing and teaching things of God, which may be sound, yet have this terrible, secret, second nature? And yet, we have seen it again and again.

I do not think the average, basically honest person can easily grasp this. I’m no saint, but this stuff blows my mind. I find myself no longer able to trust many people, especially once they show signs of insincerity or a desire to manipulate what people think of them. And why does it appear to be especially common in christian families who are extremely fundamental and legalistic?

I hate to have to say that this kind of BPD or extreme narcissism seems increasingly prevalent in young people who were raised in very strict, legalistic homes. Is it that physical or sexual abuse was also present, or is it that this strict, authoritarian upbringing is abusive in itself? How many of these parents were practicing the strict, cruel spanking of infants, and what does that do to a child? How many were practicing the strict, and equally cruel, control of everything a child thinks, says or does?

I have lots of unanswered questions.

The dude who founded the Legionaries of Christ is a prime example of this. First name Marcel; drawing a blank on the last name; I think it was Maciel. Yes, pretty sure that was it.

He fooled a lot of people with his pious posturing and apparent orthodoxy, but he was a monster. Probably one of the most evil men who ever lived. No exaggeration.

When St Paul talks about “the mystery of iniquity, ” he’s not kidding. Sometimes it really is a mystery.

I poked around Google a little, looking for what I thought was a book-length treatment (that I remember encountering referenced in comments somewhere — perhaps here at TWW) of the “discipline of children” texts in Proverbs that argued that the corporal punishment texts were last resorts to rescue children heading into criminality.

Didn’t find it, but I noticed that the “hear my wisdom” agenda at the beginning of Proverbs gets heavy right away:

Literally the very first specific admonition in chapter 1 is to not conspire to murder and robbery (starting at 1:10):

My son, if sinful men entice you,
do not give in to them.

If they say, “Come along with us;
let’s lie in wait for innocent blood,
let’s ambush some harmless soul;

let’s swallow them alive, like the grave,
and whole, like those who go down to the pit;

we will get all sorts of valuable things
and fill our houses with plunder;

cast lots with us;
we will all share the loot”—

my son, do not go along with them,
do not set foot on their paths;

In a culture in which there was not a system of protective custody, and not much if any formal local law enforcement, I can see how extreme in-home measures might be appropriate to prevent a child from committing a crime that would lead to someone else’s death and to their own exposure to a capital penalty.

IIRC, in the “rod of punishment drives away folly” teaching, one is justified to strike children for offenses as trivial as not being cheerful in performance of a command — which is interpreted to be a form of defiance. This will, of course, seem deeply unjust to the child.
What happens when a child is repeatedly exposed to behaviors that communicate that the infliction of unjust punishment is a privilege of authority?

I suspect that TT’s and similar ideas have done a world of harm, and perhaps have damaged the consciences of many children. Perhaps he realizes this. Another grey head that may be justly bowing with sorrow.

Samuel Conner: Perusing the comments over at Thou Art the Man, there are people who are defending TJC or criticizing his critics right now, who are unlikely to be TJC.

He was out on bond at that time. Not that I am certain it was him, but I would argue that the bad grammar of the individual does not mean it wasn’t one him or one of the Pyro guys, but that it’s possible they were not sober.

TS00,

I think the book is worth reading, if only to understand one facet of “how we got where we are” in the churches.

It has been decades since I read it, and many of the details are fuzzy. I think (and this seems highly likely, as I have a much stronger recollection of his brother Paul’s approach to counseling, and TT was/is similar to PT) that there was a significant interest in understanding the “why” of children’s behavior, and trying to direct that into virtuous paths (hence the title of the book).

There was IIRC a pretty strong emphasis against using discipline simply to control undesired behavior, on the theory that if the structure of a child’s motivations was bad and remained bad, the behavioral restraint would last only as long as the child was young enough to remain under the parent’s control.

This aspect of the book made a lot of sense to me. Ironically, I was raised in a home in which the parents were too busy too invest a lot of time in understanding us, and “behavior control” was the norm, and there was a lot of paddling as punishment for disobedience. But we knew that our parents loved us and I don’t think there was much lasting damage from the corporal aspect of the “behavior control.” We knew we were loved.

It has been remarked over at TAtM that in a number of jailhouse recordings that have been admitted into evidence, TJC receives verbal expressions of love but does not reciprocate them. That seems odd; perhaps its simply a quirk of personality or maybe a hint of something more profound like narcissism, but I wonder what his childhood was like. This is not to excuse the crimes, but wondering if there is more than meets the eye that might help to understand them. TJC made his choices and is responsible for them, but what were the influences that helped to shape him into the person he became?

Similar stuff from Walt Chantry:

http://www.chantry-sermons.com/children_in_worship.htm

“In our church, parents usually begin to bring their children into our services at the age of two…Two-year-olds are not old enough to understand why they must be still and quiet”

“The only way to establish obedience in a child is to punish each and every wilful disobedience to a command. It begins when the parent says ‘no’ to touching an expensive lamp. If the child touches it, the fingers should be smacked hard enough that a few repeat punishments will bring obedience. Each time the child asserts his will against a command he must be made to obey…the rod cannot be spared or the child will be spoiled and parents will not have their children under control.”

“If this pattern of enforcing commands is established at home, then bringing a child to church is merely a new series of orders given. When the child has been told to be quiet, if he speaks out, a hasty exit to another room for a spanking will make the point…It is indispensable to the parents’ good that they worship…the only issue with the child is that Mom and Dad have commanded submission. This is done with young children only the by the rod (by spanking). It is …the foundation of self-control in later life.”

Samuel Conner: In retrospect, I think that “fear of punishment” is not a great way to motivate people.

I think it just leads them to lie, a lot of the time.

SiteSeer,

Exactly this.

There are certainly idiot teenage boy trolls all over twitter, but this topic and dee are unlikely victims for them. This is someone who cares deeply about Chantry for whatever reasons.

Jerome: They are easily recalled each time I need to apply biblical ethics to a thorny question.

Evidently the question of the righteousness of beating other people’s children didn’t rise to the level of examining against the catechism.

Mr. Jesperson: This is part of the real problem with an anonymous Internet like we currently have. I suspect that the ability to remain anonymous will eventually stop with changes in laws.

I hope not. The anonymity of the Internet has its problems, but there are positive aspects to it, as well. Daisy has mentioned a few times that using her real name online left her open to the unwanted attention of stalkers. The ability to post under a screen handle allowed her to participate in discussions, while protecting herself. Speaking for myself, I’m glad that she’s had that opportunity.

Serving Kids in Japan,

How awful.

People will say the most terrible things online with anonymity but many will say them in person to. As a man speaks, so is he. We are the same people, online or off, we just hide it better sometimes. Scary realization, when you see the pure hatred and disgusting comments rolling in. How many people do you know who think the same? Who act the same?

Jerome: From Walt Chantry: “It begins when the parent says ‘no’ to touching an expensive lamp. If the child touches it, the fingers should be smacked hard enough that a few repeat punishments will bring obedience.”

This teaches children that they are less valuable than a lamp.

TS00: I cannot imagine how different it might have been if I had been persuaded that my children were innately evil from birth and needed to have the wickedness beaten out of them. Thank God I never viewed my precious little ones like that. I was more concerned with the selfishness I needed to root out of me, and having dependent souls who I loved more than life itself helped tremendously.

This is such a lovely perspective, and I am sure that your children benefited. It’s a humble approach. Unfortunately some churches teach parents not to be humble, but to avoid humiliation. Those same churches are all too ready to humiliate.

TS00: I also agree with your suggestion that the ‘spare the rod’ concept was geared toward older, rebellious youths who knew right from wrong but deliberately chose to do evil.

Youths who considered themselves restless and reformed, but were nonetheless merely arrogant and rebellious, perhaps.

Samuel Conner: IIRC, in the “rod of punishment drives away folly” teaching, one is justified to strike children for offenses as trivial as not being cheerful in performance of a command — which is interpreted to be a form of defiance. This will, of course, seem deeply unjust to the child.
What happens when a child is repeatedly exposed to behaviors that communicate that the infliction of unjust punishment is a privilege of authority?

This is an excellent observation. I have a youth handbook full of “wisdom principles” that drives even adults into depression. The punishment is being on the “bad” side of the youth leaders, lost the “previlige” to development God given gifts, silently being isolated with lots of pressure to conforms to the will of the leaders.

In regarding to ARBCA, my wife and I are friends with a couple who in the past couple of years attended David Dykstra’s church in Willis, TX. My wife had a phone conversation with friend’s wife and the subject of sexual abuse came up. Long story short, our friend was told NOT to read or believe online blogs and they should not get into “gossip”.

They were NOT inform that TJC was being sue! They were given the impression that the guy being sue was a nobody!

There was not a drop of integrity and honesty. Dykstra intentionally kept them blind.

Samuel Conner: There is significant movement in this direction in the secular mental health field; I think it is known as “trauma-informed care.”

Absolutely there is! Have you seen the ted talk about aces scores? This stuff is so important and I think until recently we have not really been talking about it nearly enough.

Samuel Conner: IIRC, at the core of TT’s book was a concern that children learn proper respect for all the various authorities they will encounter throughout life (the parents being the first and primary ones throughout childhood).

I have read the book awhile back. If my memory serves me right, I think your summary is spot on. This thought came to my mind after reading the book – “this book in the wrong type of person will be taken to the direction not intended and really harm kids.”

I pretty much took the part that I need to really know the heart of my kids and adjust my interaction with them as they grows older. I dropped everything else from the book.

Among the “church” people that read the book, I often heard the phrase “my kids are little sinners too.” My wife and I ABSOLUTELY HATED hearing other parents say that. Even though the reality is that everybody is a sinner but Jesus never address kids that way in the Bible. He welcomes them into his arms. He praise them to the point that adults should be like kids to enter Kingdom of God and not despise them or seeing them as trouble makers.

I still believe strongly the book is bad in the wrong type of people who are extremely task oriented and not relational. I can see in my mind’s eye that they will hurt a 3 year old by reading that he/she is defiant and rebellious. With the support of the book, claiming it is for the good of the kid.

Dee,

I mean this facetiously. Wasn’t John MacArthur quoted not too long ago as saying, “These are the best of times for us, and we know that because the enemy’s working so hard. That’s always a good indicator of the direction we’re going in.” (http://thewartburgwatch.com/2018/08/24/john-macarthurs-son-in-laws-alleged-compensation-for-video-production-and-macarthurs-alleged-comments-during-a-meeting-with-seminary-students/)

Seriously, thank you for what you do, especially in light of what is going on behind the scenes.

Samuel Conner: As you wrote above, “it’s an ancient text”. I suspect that the doctrine of the “perspicuity of Scripture” has done its share of harm in encouraging people to make simplistic applications of ancient texts, that we confidently reckon we deeply understand in our English translations, to the present time.

Anybody who’s been beat over the head with:

“Well… It’s obvious you don’t believe God’s Word…”

Will agree that your comment is true

On a side note, but somewhat related to BECAUSE BIBLE…

Just saw a SBC church website claim that women can be in ministry BECAUSE BIBLE AND WAYNE GRUDEM!

I am seriously laughing. I guess they didn’t read Grudem all that carefully…

Bridget:
Who ever this HaHa is, he/she is an immature bully. It’s hard to believe that this so calledHaHa person is “Christian.” They obviously don’t know that love is a hallmark of a Christian.

The name reminds me of that WW2 figure, “Lord Haw Haw” who did German propaganda broadcasts targeted at England.

Lea: Samuel Conner: In retrospect, I think that “fear of punishment” is not a great way to motivate people.

I think it just leads them to lie, a lot of the time.

Oh, it motivates them.
Motivates them to “Don’t Get Caught”.

Jeffrey Chalmers: I am really coming to the conclusion that so many of the “pious” fundies/evangelicals/ neoCal are just as worldly as “the world” when it comes to any question of significant issues…

They just slap a Pious coat of paint on top of it.

“He is a very pious man; that much one sees when both his eyes are closed. Ha, but piety and goodness are not necessarily the same. By no means. Gilles de Rais, the greatest monster ever clothed in flesh, he was a pious man, but far from being good. Cotton Mather, who hanged poor, inoffensive women on the gallows tree, he was a pious man; so was Torquemada, who fouled the pure air of heaven with the burnings of the luckless Jews of Spain. They all were pious — too pious to be truly good, parbleau!”
— Seabury Quinn, “The Dark Angel” (Jules de Grandin pulp mystery, Weird Tales 1932)

Slightly off-topic: Is anyone here familiar with Calvary Bible Church in Fort Worth, Texas? A FB friend is a member there. From the website, it seems as if they are strong proponents of T4G and the Gospel Coalition. Also, they are Gospelly to the nth power.

Jerome: “The only way to establish obedience in a child is to punish each and every wilful disobedience to a command. It begins when the parent says ‘no’ to touching an expensive lamp. If the child touches it, the fingers should be smacked hard enough that a few repeat punishments will bring obedience. Each time the child asserts his will against a command he must be made to obey…the rod cannot be spared or the child will be spoiled and parents will not have their children under control.”

“If this pattern of enforcing commands is established at home, then bringing a child to church is merely a new series of orders given. When the child has been told to be quiet, if he speaks out, a hasty exit to another room for a spanking will make the point…It is indispensable to the parents’ good that they worship…the only issue with the child is that Mom and Dad have commanded submission. This is done with young children only the by the rod (by spanking). It is …the foundation of self-control in later life.”

“A new series of orders given”… and there you have the philosophy of life: it is a series of orders to be obeyed.

Most of us remove expensive lamps so that our inquisitive toddlers can explore the world and learn about it. This is their work at that age, their lifelong understanding of the world will be built upon what they learn. They cannot learn if they must sit quietly and touch nothing. If they learn that life is about getting smacked constantly over things that make no sense to them, they end up like… well, like some people we discuss here.

ishy: Just saw a SBC church website claim that women can be in ministry BECAUSE BIBLE AND WAYNE GRUDEM!

Ha!

Meanwhile, I was just listening to a little family member tell me the dress code for 8 year old girls at baptist church camp and had to about bite my tongue off.

Lea: Meanwhile, I was just listening to a little family member tell me the dress code for 8 year old girls at baptist church camp and had to about bite my tongue off.

One of the egalitarian Facebook groups I’m in talk about this quite a bit. Apparently, boys can do whatever they want, but girls have really strict and sometimes bizarre dress code rules. I remember one required girls to wear t-shirt and knee length shorts over swimsuits, even while swimming, but boys had no guidelines at all. There was another one about how they had these strict requirements for day camp pool trips, and then the staff had a freak out when local pool they used wouldn’t allow anything but swimsuits in the pool.

Friend, that story is insane!

Swimsuits exist for a reason. I had a friend at work whose grandparents when they were little used to make them wear dresses to the beach in florida because of ‘modesty’ and she was talking about how not only did they stand out (which is the opposite of modest!) but their dresses got wet and were completely see through. So it was stupid all around.

Friend,

Your grandmother and others like her are the ones we need to have teaching our little ones, not Voddie Baucham and his dude bros.

I have come to realize that what people have to say regarding abusers and and their victims don’t mean jack! These supporters of pedophiles and rapist who speak in defense of them in the name of God have no substance and clearly don’t know my Savior. I don’t know why any response should be given to them. If people like this want to back abusers let them because it sure as heck going to be a wake up call if they ever have to answer or give an account. Bottom line is I don’t listen to church members or pastors who seem to think they know everything theologically. I trust very few however the ones I do trust and listen to know the Lord and actually practice what they say.

Bridget:
Who ever this HaHa is, he/she is an immature bully. It’s hard to believe that this so calledHaHa person is “Christian.” They obviously don’t know that love is a hallmark of a Christian.

Bridget, I would venture to say that their idea of what constitutes love is quite different from yours. Such people would defend bullying behavior because in their mind the victims deserve it.

TS00,

In my view, many have turned the created book into an object of worship…turning it into an idol, valuing it above God. Took me awhile to get there. 🙂

Jeannette Altes,

1. “Unspoken Sermons, completed: McDonald’s Works” p. 26

2. “The Collected Letters of C S Lewis, Vol. 3” A letter to Mrs. Johnson on November 8, 1952

Headless Unicorn Guy: That just sounds disturbingly KINKY.

I did not find the story at the site that Guest linked, so don’t know the details, but it might simply be “power relations”, AKA “cruelty flows downhill”. As mentioned in the OP, one of the TJC victims developed a bullying behavior pattern, which might have been a way of dealing with the cruelty to which he was subjected by TJC.

It’s a little frightening to think of the harm that can be inflicted on children, but the flip side is that one can also model grace and kindness. I scratch my head that the human race still seems to be at an early stage in its work on this project; haven’t figured it out in the tens of thousands of years we’ve been at it; are still weeding out bad practices. But then we’re still figuring out how to “be the church”, too. Culture improves at a glacial pace, I guess.

Jeannette Altes: I am removing the book and placing God front and center, where He belongs.

Perfect, absolutely perfect. I think we would get along well. 😉

TS00: he absurdity of it all

the absurdity of shouting the name of a scantily clad female deity to distract attention from the scantily clad female humans?

Why didn’t they think to wear Keds?

Wild Honey,

For some reason, the first time I responded, it marked me as responding to myself….odd…
Anyway, here are the sources…

1. “Unspoken Sermons, completed: McDonald’s Works” p. 26

2. “The Collected Letters of C S Lewis, Vol. 3” A letter to Mrs. Johnson on November 8, 1952

Darlene: Honey

Because the objects of the bullying are not the Elect(TM), right?

Or, as HUG would say, they are not God’s Speshul Pets. So anything goes. 🙁

Friend,

I think our grandmothers would have gotten along well. I also see my mother do this with my young children, and it makes my heart smile.

Jerome: “Producer: ‘Why did you cover up the television with your hand for the little boys?’

Joy Duggar: ‘Because it was defrauding.’

that poor little girl was given the responsibility of ‘protecting’ her brothers from something she isn’t even old enough to understand.

And ‘defauding’ is the worst word. Poor kids.

Jeannette Altes: “It is Christ Himself, not the Bible, who is the true Word of God. The Bible, read in the right spirit and with the guidance of good teachers, will bring us to Him. We must not use the Bible as a sort of encyclopedia out of which texts can be taken for use as weapons.” – C S Lewis

Then Lewis would have failed that trick question from my time in-country.
Epic Failed.

The Twentysomething Elder would hold up a Bible and ask “What is This?”

If you answered “a Bible”, WRONG ANSWER.
Twentysomething Elder would shake the Bible in your face and yell “THIS! IS! THE! WORD! OF! GOD!!!!!!”

Friend: Back in the day, shunning at Bob Jones was called “socializing.”

For real? That’s orwellian, legitimately.

The idea that women are stealing something from men (or boys from girls) by existing in the world is gross. My understanding is that ‘defrauding’ came from that creepy old dude whose name i’m forgetting that the duggers love. Maybe they should unpack that a little bit? Consider the source here.

Lea: My understanding is that ‘defrauding’ came from that creepy old dude whose name i’m forgetting that the duggers love.

Bill Gothard, his name was. Although “creepy old dude” works just as well for me.

Friend: Back in the day, shunning at Bob Jones was called “socializing.” A friend who went there got socialized when someone reported her for holding hands with her fiance. My friend had to eat meals alone in the cafeteria, and her roommate was not allowed to speak to her. I think the socializing/socialism lasted two weeks.

That is evil, IMO.

Friend,

That’s beautiful, Friend 🙂

Serving Kids in Japan: Bill Gothard, his name was.Although “creepy old dude” works just as well for me.

I call him “Bill Got Hard”.
(“Young Young Virgins… In Loooong Denim Jumpers… With Looooong… Waaaaavy… Haaaaaair….”)