Tom Chantry Shows His True Colors and His Supporters Remain Silent. Todd Wilhelm Made Sure the Truth Was Exposed.

Mature Galaxy Mesmerizes in New Hubble View

6/2019 New Hubble photo: “Shown here, NGC 7773 is a beautiful example of a barred spiral galaxy. A luminous bar-shaped structure cuts prominently through the galaxy’s bright core,”

“I wish it need not have happened in my time,” said Frodo.
“So do I,” said Gandalf, “and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring


Approximately two years ago, I survived an ordeal when a poorly written letter was sent to my church, community organizations ands my husband’s employer attempting to embarrass us within our social, professional and spiritual communities. Thankfully, the letter was poorly written and all recipients were supportive and sympathetic to us.

The letter accused me of highlighting the documented and despicable activities of two individuals. However, I became convinced this letter was mostly concerned with Tom Chantry. At the time, I was merely following the media reports. Thankfully, Todd Wilhelm returned home to Arizona from Dubai and has diligently followed the trial which resulted in what he and I believed would be Chantry’s inevitable convictions.

Without Todd’s documentation, the serious nature of Chantry’s behavior and ARBCA’s role may not have been widely known within the greater Christian community.

In the past two years, I have received some behind the scenes comments that have made me suspect that the letter writer was still upset over the Chantry coverage. At the same time, I received a number of messages from a few *concerned Reformed leaders* (Chantry’s denomination  is ARBCA) that I had no business discussing Tom Chantry’s burgeoning legal woes. I was advised to *act like a Christian* and wait until the authorities had ruled on the charges. After the convictions, I asked one of those leaders what he had to say about the results. He said he had *nothing to say.* What a surprise! We are supposed to stay silent during and after. That day is over.

The attempt to stop the bad press failed and the jury convicted Chantry. On Friday, Chantry will receive his sentence based on his felony convictions of child physical and sex abuse.

Tom Chantry said he thinks the prosecutors should be hung and the judges imprisoned prior his sentencing.  😀

So what does this man of God do while awaiting his sentencing in prison? Well, even after being warned that his phone calls in prison can be recorded unless made to his attorney or medical professional, he decided to insult those *in authority over him.* And…the judge will be exercising that authority by imposing the sentence.

The prosecutor made it known just how unimpressed she is with Chantry. I think you will find the actual document submitted by the prosecutor. It is not your typical, dull, lawyerly tome.

Todd Wilhelm documented this in Thomas Chantry – Prosecutors Should Be Hung and Judges Should Be in Prison For Life






The prosecutor says to throw the book at him at sentencing which means running all the sentences consecutively. I agree with her.

It appears that Tom Chantry is exactly what I believed him to be two long years ago. I wonder if his friends and and the boys in ARBCA will stand by him.

Letters asking for leniency

For those of you are are gluttons for punishment, you may *enjoy* reading the letters from 4 individuals asking for leniency by the judge in the sentencing.

Here is the link.


Comments

Tom Chantry Shows His True Colors and His Supporters Remain Silent. Todd Wilhelm Made Sure the Truth Was Exposed. — 184 Comments

  1. He will find the prison full of the “Smartest man in the world.”

    Only now he will found just how stupid he really was.

    He will find his friends on the outside will be of little help.

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  2. Classic narcissism. In their mind, they can do no wrong. If they do something that is deemed wrong, it can’t be. It not wrong when they do it. Based on the document, I would agree with the prosecutor the he is very dangerous, crossing on the spectrum past narcissism to sociopath – no conscience, no empathy, entitled, dangerous. I hope the judge heeds the prosecutor’s request.

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  3. Please, everyone, look at the letter from J**** J******. I’m not spelling out his name because he’s 13 years old. They got a 13 YEAR OLD to write a letter supporting Tom Chantry. That just says volumes to me. They had to get a *child* to write a letter because none of Chantry’s pastor buddies will put themselves on legal record as supporting him. It’s completely disgusting to use a child like this. Clare K should be ashamed she asked her child to do this.

    I wish I could be there to see Chantry sentenced, but I changed positions at my evil too big to fail employer a month ago so tied up with the new job and all. I do want to thank Todd Wilhelm for his perseverance through two trials and getting lots of documents.

    The leaders of ARBCA, past and present, should be mortified they supported this guy. They should also be ashamed that they did not turn Chantry over to the law a long time before this. It’s as if “the least of these” really didn’t matter when it came to running their own private denomination. I keep thinking of the pain Chantry put these children through, the ARBCA leaders knew it was perverse, yet they protected him.

    In closing, I’d just like to say that the leaders of ARBCA should understand what a rotten example they’ve set. It goes in the books with all the other sick, pathetic coverups of pastors and preachers that have come out over the last couple of decades.

    I got into an argument with a guy on Twitter this week because my Twitter bio says “done with church but not with Jesus.”* This guy said I was disrespecting the church, Christ’s bride. I told him over a series of tweets that the church was not a healthy place for a lot of people and specifically used the examples of child sexual abuse covered up by churches. He, on the other hand, slid right past the child sexual abuse scandals and felt like Jesus should slug me because I wasn’t bowing down to the almighty authority of Christ’s church, Christ’s bride. *shrug* Whatevs.

    * I’m thinking I might go back to “doesn’t suffer fools gladly.”

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  4. Somewhereintime,

    “Narcissism … I only know it too well coming out of Sovereign Grace.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    i have no doubt SGM was occupied by narcissists.

    i know church culture tends to create clones. people lose touch with a lot of things, including objectivity and their own thoughts.

    wondering how it works when narcissists are cloned. when otherwise normal people start emulating narcissists. i have no doubt they lose their objectivity and start copying their behavior.

    do such clones recover? do they wake up and feel remorse?

    when you were in SGM, did you observe leaders who were narcissist clones, and did they ever wake up and feel remorse?

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  5. Posters over at the Thou Art The Man blog are recalling that as pastor’s kid at the Carlisle church Tom Chantry had this scenario he liked to set up with other children:

    https://thouarttheman.org/2019/07/13/thomas-chantry-prosecutors-should-be-hung-and-judges-should-be-in-prison-for-life/#comment-8401

    “I’m not the only one who remembers Tom playing ‘bad baby’”

    https://thouarttheman.org/2019/07/13/thomas-chantry-prosecutors-should-be-hung-and-judges-should-be-in-prison-for-life/#comment-8395

    “I’ve known Tom since he was six years old…Grace Baptist Christian school in Carlisle, PA…a favorite playtime game of his was what he called ‘baby’…his playmates were ‘bad babies’ and needed to be spanked. He, of course, meted out the necessary punishment”

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  6. Jeannette Altes: crossing on the spectrum past narcissism to sociopath

    I agree that Tom is more than a narcissist but I believe you have the wrong diagnosis here. Sociopaths are made. Classic example being a kid growing up in a gang infested part of town. He joins a gang and then is carefully instructed on how to be sociopathic by the older kids and adults. These people will fail polygraphs and work hard on covering up what they really think from anyone who actually has serious power over them.

    Psychopaths, on the other hand are born without any conscience whatsoever. They can pass a polygraph even while lying because they just do not feel fear in these kinds of situations. One Phd. describes them as people who could get pulled over by cops with a body stuffed in their trunk and they feel absolutely nothing. They are scarier because they cannot fear consequences and so go much farther at times than sociopaths.

    I have become convinced that this Tom is a psychopath. He has no fear of consequences even while awaiting sentencing. A sociopath would wait until after sentencing at least, or they might never say what they think as they are already scheming how to eventually get past a parole board. Todd’s description of him at the two trials also would indicate this with what Todd said was his reaction to things were in the courtroom.

    Most important take away from this is to remember that psychopaths exist and CEO is their number one career choice and pastor or priest is in the top ten. Jesus plainly said that we should not be ignorant of the Devil’s schemes and this is one reality that no one can afford to ignore or pretend does not exist.

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  7. elastigirl: wondering how it works when narcissists are cloned. when otherwise normal people start emulating narcissists. i have no doubt they lose their objectivity and start copying their behavior.

    I know your questions are for somewhereintime, but I wanted share some things I’ve learned and observed.

    1. There is something called co-narcissism. It usually takes place in a marriage dynamic, but it could happen in other relationships, as well. Essentially, it is when someone marries a narcissist who isn’t one, but through time developes a sort of symbiotic dynamic with the narcissist. Basically, it’s a form of enabling with a splash of codependency, but worse, because they will clean up the narcissists messes, knowing full well what they are doing, but say they are doing the opposite. A form of self-brainwashing, perhaps. I saw this with my former pastor and his wife.

    2. Concerning ‘followers’ beginning to emulate the narcissistic leader…yes, this does happen. Also, narcissistic abusers will attract other abusers and they will play cya form each other – until it becomes inconvenient. Those who aren’t narcissists, if broken out of the system, will, in time regain themselves – if they choose to.

    Also, children raised by narcissists will often display narcissistic behavior traits – kids imitate what they see/know. A way to tell if the child of a narcissist is a truly one, as well: bring the unhealthy behavior to their attention. The non-narcissist will immediately be maybe confused a bit, but also contrite and ashamed and apologetic (truly) and take steps to correct the behavior. A narcissist will never do that.

    Part of my process of dealing with and healing from my past has been to examine any behaviors that resembles my mom’s and discard them.

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  8. At the Sharper Iron blog someone recalled, about Tom Chantry:

    https://sharperiron.org/comment/89074#comment-89074

    “I met him several years ago when he ran a youth program at a Reformed Baptist Family Camp…sponsored by his father’s church in Carlisle, PA.”

    [Referring to their annual ‘Reformed Baptist Family Conference’ which attracted campers from dozens of these churches. Held at various locations in Pennsylvania and New Jersey over the decades, with hundreds of children attending]

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  9. A despicable human being and allowed far too much time to commit abuse on innocent children.

    The supporters seem to believe that if they didn’t see him committing abuse, then it couldn’t have happened. “He didn’t abuse me or my children so he couldn’t have abused you or yours.” As if an abuser abuses every single child he is in contact with. No, these people were groomed as his character references and he made sure to impress them. I wish they could see how much their willful blindness must hurt the victims.

    I wonder why it is that when some people are confronted with the truth, they recognize it immediately, even if it crushes an illusion they had believed in, while others will stick stubbornly to the illusion even after the truth is undeniable. People of the lie.

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  10. This woman who joined Chantry’s sisters in pleading for leniency, and asked her son to as well, I see she’s set to speak at a church ladies conference later this year on the topic of ‘Forgiveness and the Unrepentant Person’!

    http://woodridge.cc/womens-ministry/woodridge-womens-conference-2019-forgiveness/

    Woodridge Community Church, New Berlin, Wisconsin
    “Forgiveness and the Unrepentant Person”
    Speaker: Claire Kronshage

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  11. I was struck by what seemed to me tone-deafness in the Exhibit C letter. It seems to be written from the posture of “this is a wrongful conviction”. If YHWH is paying attention (my working assumption is that He is, but there are days when I wonder), I can’t imagine that He is pleased with the repeated mentions of God (“Man of God”, “Word of God”).

    Perhaps they think it was wrong that the Court did not apply their preferred standard of “two witnesses” for each of the counts TJC was convicted of.

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  12. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: This guy said I was disrespecting the church, Christ’s bride.

    I’ve experienced this objection too (using the text “who will bring a charge against God’s elect”?).

    My comeback was that I was simply noting what is pretty plainly true about certain groups of people who claim to be elect.

    Another good comeback might be a general application 1 Cor 11:31

    The present-day church really does has “Corinthian” feel to it. The superapostles are winning.

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  13. What’s telling is who DIDN’T write character letters for Tom Chantry.

    Walt Chantry, Karen Chantry, Don Lindblad, Earl Blackburn, Tom Lyon, Al Huber, etc. As far as the ARBCA bigwigs go, they’ve likely thrown Chantry under the bus (with Earl Blackburn now throwing himself out of one of the emergency exit windows.) As for Karen, I hope this is a sign that the blinders are finally being lifted off her eyes.

    Chantry’s unbelievably arrogant statements hopefully remove all doubt that he is unrepentant and guarantees him a lengthy sentence. After 18+ years, the victims deserve that much.

    Samuel Conner: The present-day church really does has “Corinthian” feel to it.

    A Corinthian feel isn’t a good thing for a church. However, my old Chrysler’s leather seats had a very Corinthian feel to them, and those were wonderful.

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  14. Exhibit A is written by the mother of a 13-year-old boy who suffered some sort of trauma at age 7 or 8. She writes, “Tom met with him through a difficulty no child should suffer. I was very impressed that, even though I trusted Tom, he was extremely careful always to meet with my son in a safe and public place, where they could have privacy but still be seen by me. He also recorded their sessions. He understood the need for propriety.”

    Is there a legitimate reason to record counseling sessions with a child somewhere between 8 and 13 years of age?

    Is it normal to counsel a child in public, with a parent watching at a distance? (This alarms me less than the recording, but it also put the boy on display during conversations about the worst thing that ever happened to him.)

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  15. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Please, everyone, look at the letter from J**** J******. I’m not spelling out his name because he’s 13 years old. They got a 13 YEAR OLD to write a letter supporting Tom Chantry. That just says volumes to me. They had to get a *child* to write a letter because none of Chantry’s pastor buddies will put themselves on legal record as supporting him. It’s completely disgusting to use a child like this. Clare K should be ashamed she asked her child to do this.

    I couldn’t believe it. Can you imagine wanting your kid to write a letter in defense of a child sex abuser. This one will come back to bite them in the nose when he gets old enough.

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  16. Jerome:
    This woman who joined Chantry’s sisters in pleading for leniency, and asked her son to as well, I see she’s set to speak at a church ladies conference later this year on the topic of ‘Forgiveness and the Unrepentant Person’!http://woodridge.cc/womens-ministry/woodridge-womens-conference-2019-forgiveness/
    Woodridge Community Church, New Berlin, Wisconsin
    “Forgiveness and the Unrepentant Person”
    Speaker: Claire Kronshage

    Good catch. I’ll make sure Todd sees this. Creepy lady, defending a child sex abuser. What a speaker!!!!

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  17. “… narcissist … feelings of superiority … extreme arrogance … condescending attitude … no one is as intelligent as him … believes he can control and manipulate others … used his position as a pastor …”

    Sound familiar? What are the first descriptors that pop to mind when a leader of the new reformation comes up? Authoritarian, arrogant … we hear it over and over. Yep, there’s been an outbreak of that in reformed ranks … Chantry, Driscoll, MacDonald, etc. etc.

    “Pride cometh before a fall” … you can take it to the bank (or prison in this case).

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  18. Catholic Gate-Crasher: Re Exhibit B: If a 13-year-old kid actually wrote that letter, I’ll eat my Missalette.

    You will have to go hungry, I’m afraid. 😉

    On a serious note, this is the boy who was counseled in public, with sessions recorded by Tom Chantry. So, of the four letters, two are from the mother and 13-year-old son, and two are from Chantry’s siblings. (Although I can’t understand how a man with the surname Chantry can be the “brother” of Mike and Judy Rodgers. Brother in Christ? Brother-in-law to one of them…?)

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  19. SiteSeer: The supporters seem to believe that if they didn’t see him committing abuse, then it couldn’t have happened.

    I wonder if some of them don’t even think it’s wrong if he did do it. Women and children are “owned” by the men in their view. Plus, I can’t help but wonder if Chantry’s father-in-law’s money extended to men in the ARBCA and there were bribes involved.

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  20. Chantry will find no supporters in prison. Just the opposite I believe. He will have a rude awakening from his world of power and control.

    Pyromaniacs were all over the top as far as I could tell. They all exhibited abnormal personality issues from narcissistic to psychopathy.

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  21. ishy: I wonder if some of them don’t even think it’s wrong if he did do it.

    This could definitely play into it. I’ve heard supposedly sane, moral people say that molestation isn’t that big a deal because kids are resilient and won’t remember, anyway. I’ve also heard, “get over it,” too often.

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  22. Jerome: “I’ve known Tom since he was six years old…Grace Baptist Christian school in Carlisle, PA…a favorite playtime game of his was what he called ‘baby’…his playmates were ‘bad babies’ and needed to be spanked. He, of course, meted out the necessary punishment”

    Wow…
    “Papa Spank” paraphilia LARPing FROM AGE SIX?????

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  23. ishy: Plus, I can’t help but wonder if Chantry’s father-in-law’s money extended to men in the ARBCA and there were bribes involved.

    Same here.
    One Hand Washes the Other and Money Talks.

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  24. Bridget: Chantry will find no supporters in prison. Just the opposite I believe.

    I wish the best for Mr. Chantry during his incarceration if/when he truly repents. Pedophiles are not treated well by other inmates – abusing a child is something even the most hardcore criminals find too offensive. Jesus forgave the thief on the cross, but said it would be better for a child abuser to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck and drowned in the sea. For someone who defended the Holy Scriptures as inerrant, he seems to have skipped over that one.

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  25. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: and felt like Jesus should slug me because I wasn’t bowing down to the almighty authority of Christ’s church, Christ’s bride

    So interesting how the complementarians use the church analogy to keep women under the thumbs of men, but then give the church itself all authority . . . jus’ sayn.’

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  26. The letter by Ms. Eazer is well put-together – I look forward to hearing of a LOOONG sentence! I admire her persistence in helping the victims and pursuing justice against this slimy creep (don’t have enough words to express how disgusting Tom Chantry is)…
    And thanks to Dee and Todd for keeping the rest of us informed.

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  27. Samuel Conner,

    “If YHWH is paying attention (my working assumption is that He is, but there are days when I wonder), I can’t imagine that He is pleased with the repeated mentions of God (“Man of God”, “Word of God”).”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    ha….

    talk about name-dropping…

    yeah, i can’t imagine God is ok with being exploited for the purpose of widdling down a child molester’s punishment.

    (i observe christian/church culture name-dropping & exploiting “God” all the time in order to get what they want from others, for money, to shield from deserved consequences…)

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  28. Brian:
    Jeannette Altes,

    Do you have any siblings? If yes, are they either unable or unwilling to get rid of the nasty traits?

    I have one, and she has some, but has dropped many and often mentions a fear of being like mom. That’s a fear I have shared. It’s the other side of that coin: holding yourself in check from even normal emotional responses for fear of being like the narcissist.

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  29. Max: For someone who defended the Holy Scriptures as inerrant, he seems to have skipped over that one.

    I believe that there are a number of people who see that being a pastor/theologian as an access point to there victims of choice. Take a look at the Iain Campbell situation on the Isle of Lewis. He was considered one of the finest Reformed theologians yet was a predator of many women in the Isle of Lewis. That is the reason he refused to leave the Island in spite of prestigious offers.

    I truly believe that this blog forced the local leadership to admit he had done wrong. I believe that we must confront our sins and deal with them. Then enter Jonathan Fletcher and John Smyth. I believe that the same thing applies here.

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  30. readingalong: The letter by Ms. Eazer is well put-together – I look forward to hearing of a LOOONG sentence! I

    Thank you for your kind comment. I also hope that he gets a sentence in which he must serve each term consecutively. It will give Chantry a long time to contemplate his issues and make peace with God. God is not pleasde with those who hurt children…

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  31. Jerome: he was a Pyromaniacs personality (Phil Johnson’s blog)

    Many people would not join a group called Pyromaniacs. Those who do might have a certain je ne sais quoi.

    Peeked at the website. Strange mix of bullet holes, matches, and Charles Spurgeon, oddly suggestive of vintage Mad Magazine. What, me worry?

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  32. Bridget: Pyromaniacs were all over the top as far as I could tell. They all exhibited abnormal personality issues from narcissistic to psychopathy.

    Just look at their name — PYROMANIACS.

    “Pyromania is an impulse control disorder in which individuals repeatedly fail to resist impulses to deliberately start fires, in order to relieve tension or for instant gratification. The term pyromania comes from the Greek word πῦρ (pyr, fire). Pyromania is distinct from arson, the deliberate setting of fires for personal, monetary or political gain. Pyromaniacs start fires to induce euphoria…”

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  33. Max: As soon as the potato becomes too hot to handle, it is dropped.“Mahaney who?” … “Driscoll who?” … “MacDonald who?” … “Chantry who?” … etc.

    doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunperson…

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  34. dee: I believe that there are a number of people who see that being a pastor/theologian as an access point to their victims of choice.

    Agreed. It’s becoming increasingly apparent that these characters “go into the ministry” rather than being “called into the ministry.”

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  35. Jeannette Altes,

    You and your sister are trying to stop the cycle. That is good. My individual therapist says it takes at least two generations to erase those negative familial dynamics, that are neither genetic or chemical.

    My own siblings, two younger half sisters and one half brother, have rejected any idea of being affected by the chaotic abusive household we grew up in, either partly or totally.

    They were never physically abused. But, they witnessed my Mom and I being pummeled.

    My Mom and I have slowly tried making them aware of things within the last couple years. They just get nasty and combative, even turning on my Mom once.

    This is why I keep my ears perked when I can learn more about the nature verses nurture stuff.

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  36. Jeannette Altes,

    “I’ve heard supposedly sane, moral people say that molestation isn’t that big a deal because kids are resilient and won’t remember, anyway. I’ve also heard, “get over it,” too often.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    a paraphrase of what i’ve heard many times:

    “attention, little miss victim…. after everything Jesus went through on the cross on your behalf, and you say you were abused?? how dare you complain! you should be grateful. and your gratitude should override every gripe and complaint in your whiny heart.”

    only someone brainwashed would say something like this. if i could twitch my nose and send them crotch crickets i would.

    this kind of comment comes from a person who has replaced their God-given mental faculties, cognitive skills, and ability to have empathy & compassion with institutional “program”.

    they believe it to be spiritual maturity, because that is the implicit message they’ve been told.

    it is not spiritual or maturity.

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  37. Brian,

    It’s an interesting dynamic. When I first started telling people about the various abuses, my sister was initially resistant. She is seven years younger than me and I did shield her from some. Then, after a little while, she conceded that I was abused, but she wasn’t. She maintained she had an “idyllic” childhood. Just recently, she has begun to see that she was at least neglected, too. Steps. I was 44 before I was able to really start facing any of it. She’s 47 now. I think it comes down to how willing someone it’s to allow the illusions created in childhood (in order to survive) to crumble. I think some people can’t face it. It is very painful. For me, the pain of not facing it became worse than the pain of facing it. And now, though facing it has cost me relationships with much of the family, it is still worth it. Freedom…

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  38. elastigirl: this kind of comment comes from a person who has replaced their God-given mental faculties, cognitive skills, and ability to have empathy & compassion with institutional “program”.

    they believe it to be spiritual maturity, because that is the implicit message they’ve been told.

    it is not spiritual or maturity.

    On another thread, someone posted this C S LEWIS quote and I think it applies here:

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

    This applies, I think, to the defenders of the abusers. This Shakespeare quote from Richard III applies to the abusers:

    “I do the wrong, and first begin to brawl.
    But then I sigh; and, with a piece of scripture,
    Tell them that God bids us do good for evil:
    And thus I clothe my naked villany
    With old odd ends stolen out of holy writ;
    And seem a saint, when most I play the devil.”

    There have been con men and villians and snakes ‘in the pulpit’ since the snake spoke to Eve about what God REALLY meant…

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  39. Catholic Gate-Crasher,

    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    Keeping this as general as possible, the kid is not me in either situation:

    -A mother forcing her 13 year old daughter to write a supporting affidavit to a false charge against another adult. The 13 year old begins cutting herself out of guilt, eventually having to be put on a three day observation.

    -A different mother, making a false criminal charge against her daughter. The brother, 16 years old and living with his Dad, not his mother, refused to back the false charge, told the truth. The mother, goes to her sons’ school, with her boyfriend, is able to film flam the front desk, verbally abuses her son. She tries to get him to back her false charge and get it on video.

    And yes, both mothers were regularly abusive to their kids.

    And yes, both claimed to be Christians, the first one attending an IFB church, the second a megachurch.

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  40. I wish people wouldn’t use SCRIBD for posting files, though I realize that most people don’t know how to use non-proprietary sites. If anyone wants to post something like the defense sentencing memo (or even that exact document), let me know and I’ll put it up on my own website, rasmusen.org. Erasmuse@indiana.edu. Or maybe Wartburg Watch could post it on thewarburgwatch.com?

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  41. These are Calvinists. If they were consistent, in their worldview of divine meticulous determinism, they’d be glorying in this conviction. In their worldview, God: determined; ordained; willed; and decreed in eternity past this outcome – and it was all for God’s glory.
    Why should they be upset with what God has determined to happen? They are rejecting God’s will for Chantry to be convicted.

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  42. Virgil: Why should they be upset with what God has determined to happen? They are rejecting God’s will for Chantry to be convicted.

    As far as I can tell from that entire movement, determinism only applies to the peons.

    I’ve never been able to see how so many people think their theology is logical…

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  43. ishy: I’ve never been able to see how so many people think their theology is logical…

    Yes, that has also amazed me over the years … that otherwise brilliant people I have known were attracted to New Calvinism. Perhaps it was the illogical nature of the theological system which fascinated them, providing a new outlet for their debative and argumentative nature. After a while, clear reasoning kicked in and some of them left the movement.

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  44. Virgil: These are Calvinists. If they were consistent, in their worldview of divine meticulous determinism, they’d be glorying in this conviction.

    I’m convinced that many reformed leaders don’t really believe that all events which happen are preordained. They get sucked into this theology for one reason or another and have to stay the course to preserve their ministries. After a while, they come to their senses but are stuck. I’m sure they will come up with some way to explain what happened to Chantry – that one of their big wigs fell with no choice in the matter to glorify God – but things like this continue to punch holes in their theological system.

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  45. Max: I’m sure they will come up with some way to explain what happened to Chantry – that one of their big wigs fell with no choice in the matter to glorify God – but things like this continue to punch holes in their theological system.

    John Calvin already took care of this for them in Book 3, Chapter 2, Section 11 of his Institutes. Not at all a hole in their theological system – Chantry’s fall is easily explainable if they just put their trust in Calvin.

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  46. AnonInNC: What’s telling is who DIDN’T write character letters for Tom Chantry.
    Walt Chantry, Karen Chantry, Don Lindblad, Earl Blackburn, Tom Lyon, Al Huber, etc. As far as the ARBCA bigwigs go, they’ve likely thrown Chantry under the bus (with Earl Blackburn now throwing himself out of one of the emergency exit windows.) As for Karen, I hope this is a sign that the blinders are finally being lifted off her eyes.

    Actually, Chantry’s attorney advised the Judge in his document that he wants all the letters of support for Chantry from the first trial included in the second sentencing memorandum.

    “Defendant, Thomas Chantry, through counsel, submits this Pre-Sentencing Memorandum and attached exhibits for this Court’s review in advance of July 19, 2019 Sentencing Hearing. In the interest of judicial economy, Mr. Chantry expressly incorporates herein the previous pre-sentencing pleadings and mitigation presented when he was first sentenced in this case number. ”

    Additionally, the document says several of Chantry’s relatives may be speaking at the sentencing.

    The blinders have not been lifted.

    Mod: Corrected bad email address that caused the comment to be held. GBTC

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  47. Ken F (aka Tweed): John Calvin already took care of this for them in Book 3, Chapter 2, Section 11 of his Institutes. Not at all a hole in their theological system – Chantry’s fall is easily explainable if they just put their trust in Calvin.

    Hi, KenF! Can you give us the Cliff’s Notes version so we won’t have to read that drivel? 😉

    Thanks! And great to see you. [Waves]

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  48. Jack,

    “My wife and I saw a ufo. I used to be an aircraft mechanic in my youth so I do know aircraft. Darndest thing. We still can’t explain it. Never seen a sasquatch though.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    i MUST hear about it! Can you describe?

    (don’t know how much more off-topic i can get… but this is my big chance. a vicarious UFO is the next best thing to a real one)

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  49. elastigirl: do such clones recover? do they wake up and feel remorse?

    when you were in SGM, did you observe leaders who were narcissist clones, and did they ever wake up and feel remorse?

    Yes. I saw it once. After a service one night, a SG pastor came running down the aisle to me with tears in his eyes, and sincerely apologized for what he had done to me. It was one of the most astounding things I’ve ever experienced.

    Sadly, not too long after that, he was abused in the worst kind of way by the powers-that-be, was de-gifted, lied about, and has never recovered from a breakdown. I truly love this man and his family, and pray that he will be healed.

    So, yes, I know of that one instance. I hope there are others. I know others who were not pastors, who have repented of their own involvement in heavy-handed tactics.

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  50. Catholic Gate-Crasher: Can you give us the Cliff’s Notes version so we won’t have to read that drivel?

    I did not want to rob anyone of the joy of the hunt 🙂

    It’s what I call the silent point of Calvinism because it’s nearly impossible to find a Calvinist who knows about it or will explain/defend it. But it really is their best explanation for Chantry.

    Search on “Evanescent Grace.” It is an “inferior operation of the Spirit” where certain reprobate are given a “vanishing” grace that is temporarily indistinguishable from true saving faith, but later withdrawn so they can be judged more severely for having it.

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  51. Nickname: So, yes, I know of that one instance. I hope there are others. I know others who were not pastors, who have repented of their own involvement in heavy-handed tactics.

    I think we’re seeing that with Josh Harris. Apparently, he’s left churches altogether, and now that he and his wife is separated, something that never would have been tolerated in a SGM church, we may see more. But in my heart, I hope they both just step away from the spotlight, because I think that might be better for them in the long run.

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  52. Bridget: Pyromaniacs were all over the top as far as I could tell. They all exhibited abnormal personality issues from narcissistic to psychopathy.

    Check out Frank Turk’s (and Chantry’s) other old blog, their self-descriptions are something else:

    http://new-calvinist-gadfly.blogspot.com/p/about.html

    a blogging team consisting of “scum of the earth and troublemakers”

    “Editor-in-(mis)Chief” Frank Turk
    “has been blogging with Dan Phillips and Phil Johnson at the PyroManiacs blog since 2006…by night he causes mayhem on the internet for the sake of the Gospel.”

    Tom Chantry bio, photo is of Errol Flynn[?]:
    “Before Frank invited him to join this site, Tom Chantry didn’t know what a “gadfly” was. When he looked it up and read the definition to his wife, she immediately insisted that he was predestined to blog here. His niece once compiled a list running to several pages of reasons that he is a misfit…she concluded that he takes perverse pleasure [in it].”

    Another on the team has his photo captioned: “Matt, prior to ̶s̶e̶n̶t̶e̶n̶c̶i̶n̶g̶ blogging”

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  53. Ken F (aka Tweed): I did not want to rob anyone of the joy of the hunt

    Calvin had all the bases covered to be the absolute philosopher king of his time, didn’t he? The teaching on “reprobation” in the Institutes in various places is mind boggling all the way around. One can look saved, Act saved, talk saved but be a reprobate the whole time and not know it until death because they weren’t actually chosen. Evanescent Grace is a twist on that presumably to keep people in fear? Prove his reprobation theory? How Calvin could know this is also mind boggling but mysticism was big in those days from all quarters.

    Calvin, Luther and Augustine are a few reasons I reject any human spiritual “authority” or “special knowledge” not available to all who seek it. It’s patent nonsense.

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  54. Todd Wilhelm: The blinders have not been lifted.

    I’ve been wondering about the quoted phone remark by TJC that the judge could make the jury verdict and conviction go away, but because he was a “legal robot” without creativity or imagination, he wouldn’t.

    The thought has occurred that this might be a reflection of classic reformed political theory. I only know a little of this 2nd-hand, but as explained to me, the view is that the civil magistrate is there, among God’s various purposes, to protect ‘the Church’ and serve ‘the Gospel’. This might explain TJC’s (to me bizarre) remark. Perhaps he meant that in a (in his view) properly functioning court, protection of the Gospel would be the highest priority on the judge’s mind, which would privilege an accused ordained minister’s word over the testimony of any number of laity, particularly if there were not “two witnesses” for each of the charges (Paul having written to not consider charges against elders unless corroborated by two witnesses).

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  55. Apparently this crowd (Chantry and supporters) does not have/read the same Bible that I do. We are called to be followers of Christ… how can all of this “stuff” even be remotely associated with Chirst?

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  56. Jerome: blogging team consisting of “scum of the earth and troublemakers”

    I suspect that while this looks like self-deprecation, it may actually be self-exaltation. Paul uses language like this to describe how he and his associates were regarded by those who rejected the message of the Gospel. This may actually be an attempt to claim for themselves a contemporary corner of the mantle of Paul’s ministry.

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  57. elastigirl: did they ever wake up and feel remorse?

    I once formally complained that a clergy member had a habit of making truly shocking personal remarks about race, religion, and personal appearance. People called him a “great guy” and laughed along. Once he got some severely negative feedback, he was forced to see that his “wit” was harming people. His behavior did change. Oddly enough, people still liked him after he quit lobbing insults around.

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  58. Brian:
    Bridget,

    He’ll have to pay for physical protection from inmates by other inmates. That’s a fact from a felon I know.

    And what will be the currency of those payments?
    Becoming the same-sex sex toy of his protector?

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  59. elastigirl: a paraphrase of what i’ve heard many times:
    “attention, little miss victim…. after everything Jesus went through on the cross on your behalf, and you say you were abused?? how dare you complain! you should be grateful. and your gratitude should override every gripe and complaint in your whiny heart.”

    Or something I’ve heard many times in a church setting, “Don’t have a pity party and then invite me.”

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  60. Jerome,

    i think they’re bragging.

    in the photo i remember seeing of Frank Turk, my impression is that in his mind he is wearing a virtual horns, goatee and red collared cape w/pitchfork in hand. not a good image for marketing to his audience, so it has to remain in his mind.

    he seems to be playing up devilshness, for his own fun.

    (if only i could twitch my nose for cause and effect of my choosing….)

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  61. ishy,

    “But in my heart, I hope they both just step away from the spotlight”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    please.

    (as in, “Yes, please.“)

    he profited from harming others. his book has sold over a million copies — don’t know how publishing works, but surely he generate wealth. again, through messing other people’s lives up.

    does this occur to him?

    does it occur to him that he could do something to make it right? beyond a flaccid, anemic “i’m sorry you were hurt”?

    i have zero patience, zero respect for christian schmuck leaders. (ha…leaders…only because the brainwashed follow them…. who make sure they themselves eat first)

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  62. elastigirl:
    Jerome,

    i think they’re bragging.

    in the photo i remember seeing of Frank Turk, my impression is that in his mind he is wearing a virtual horns, goatee and red collared cape w/pitchfork in hand.not a good image for marketing to his audience, so it has to remain in his mind.

    he seems to be playing up devilshness, for his own fun.

    (if only i could twitch my nose for cause and effect of my choosing….)

    To me they sound like a couple of pathetic jerks. I don’t know if they think it sounds clever, or cute and edgy, or what, but it really is embarrassing.

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  63. Brian:
    Samuel Conner,
    Open question to all, in reference to Samuel’s post: Is this why some of you speak out against Calvinism in general, not just the NeoCals? And, those that proclaim themselves Calvinist are not truly full Calvinist?

    I feel like New Calvinism is closer to Calvin’s theology than the classical Calvinist theology of modern Presbyterians. Calvin was a merciless dictator who killed anyone who went against him. I think this kind of theology was made to assert that there’s a special elite group of Elect, and an even more special elite group of leaders who are assigned all power on earth.

    The idea of the priest is an Old Testament concept, and I think it’s one God intended to remove all along, but humans are not that smart and needed to see it fail before another solution is given. I feel like elitism is contradictory to much of the New Testament, where the veil was torn and Jesus became our High Priest so that all humans have equal relationship to God.

    Classical Calvinists have moved away from a lot of things like double predestination, and some I know are quite universalist. This is not what John Calvin envisioned. The New Calvinists are quite disgusted by the concept of universalism and like being specially elect. I believe many of their leaders have followed that theology precisely because it promises them special treatment and absolute authority over others.

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  64. ishy: The New Calvinists are quite disgusted by the concept of universalism and like being specially elect.

    Ah, but how do they know they are not just evanescently graced? Hmmm? Hmmm? What a miserable doctrine. What a miserable theology. Second-guessing and fear…

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  65. Brian: Open question to all, in reference to Samuel’s post: Is this why some of you speak out against Calvinism in general, not just the NeoCals?

    In my case it is because I have investigated classical Calvinism (not that there is any one form of it). The Old-Calvinists who are gracious and polite are that way in spite of Calvinism, not because of it.

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  66. Brian: Open question to all, in reference to Samuel’s post: Is this why some of you speak out against Calvinism in general, not just the NeoCals?

    To be honest, I think the comment section of this blog too often turns into a “lets bash all Calvinists all the time” party. I am not a Calvinist. But a very good friend of mine is. I think that he gravitated towards it for mere carnal reasons. He likes things to be set in stone, does not like mystery as it is commonly called. He is Italian and and loves arguing too much. It think that was the biggest draw, that Calvinists love to argue over many things that are not clearly and plainly stated in the scriptures. I think TULIP is extra-biblical and it is taking certain philosophies and applying them in a way that puts certain rose-colored glasses over the scriptures. Also, I have not see this theology help my friend become more like Christ.

    All that said, he is not an enemy, nor is he especially more wrong in his theology than you or I am. This requires humility. I frankly am concerned about the constant Calvin pounding here because some of you can make up to 50 negative Calvin comments every single week! So it sure looks like an obsession and I wonder if you all turned that around to making 50 encouraging comments directed towards others each week, if that would be better orthopraxy.

    To be honest, I think RC theology is much, much worse than Calvinism, but I do not go on any blog and just pound them day and night with the endless pointing of the fingers. It is the obsession with them and many comments that have a bitter tone to them that concern me. You can criticize things without being bitter. You can also do that while being bitter. Being obsessed to the point that all you do is slam a particular Christian sub-group constantly is a sign that something is off! That is my analysis for whatever that may be worth.

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  67. ishy: The idea of the priest is an Old Testament concept, and I think it’s one God intended to remove all along, but humans are not that smart and needed to see it fail before another solution is given. I feel like elitism is contradictory to much of the New Testament, where the veil was torn and Jesus became our High Priest so that all humans have equal relationship to God.

    Even Quakers in silent meetings sometimes have trouble with this. In Friends meetings, the custom is for people to rise and speak as led, with expanses of silence in between. If disparate themes emerge, ideally someone will draw them together at the end. In most meetings, different people do this summarizing every week. I used to attend a meeting where one lovely guy always played that role. When he died, it took months for the meeting to right itself and learn how to listen, speak as led, and draw the threads together.

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  68. Brian,

    Mr. Jesperson,

    Didn’t mean to stimulate another round of this. Was trying to understand what might lie behind that strange remark about the judge’s discretion to make the conviction go away. But systems do have implications, and the implications of Reformed system are distressing to many.

    ishy: and some I know are quite universalist.

    Predestinarian universalism is indeed a “thing”.

    https://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2010/12/calvinism-leads-to-universalism/

    There’s a trilemma: pick any two: “God is Sovereign”, “God is love”, and infernalism.

    Regarding “evanescent grace”, I suspect that this was necessary to reconcile a strong view of sovereignty with the lived reality that some people who seem to be regenerate do walk away from faith. This theory may be useful for frightening people into line, but I think its origin is in the necessities of the internal logic of the system. There is also the deeply puzzling text in Hebrews 6 that is hard to otherwise give an account of within traditional orthodoxy.

    As an aside, I think that the Hebrews 6 difficulty evaporates within a radical (Andrew Perriman) or more conventional (Tom Wright) historical understanding of Jesus’ warnings. The “wrath” that is “fearfully expected” in Hebrews 6 is not, on historical readings of the NT, post-mortem punishments, but the terrors of the AD66-73 war and especially of the siege and destruction of Jerusalem. Jews (the puzzling text was written to “Hebrews”, after all) who turned away from following Jesus in the years before that war were much more likely to find themselves on the wrong side when the war finally came.

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  69. Mr. Jesperson,

    The reason I asked the question, based on Romans 13:1, if what Samuel Conner said was true, then the political philosophy discussed is arrogant. No one could so arrogant as to believe that judge should vacate a decision based on their version of the gospel. We don’t know the entire mind of God. We only know what’s written in the Bible.

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  70. Nickname
    So, yes, I know of that one instance. I hope there are others.I know others who were not pastors, who have repented of their own involvement in heavy-handed tactics.

    We knew one, too. A pastor, who I wouldn’t call a narcissist, but did apologize to us “for his own involvement.” It seemed sincere, in stark contrast to other leadership at the time. He left that church (and ministry, I think) right around the time we did.

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  71. Mr. Jesperson,

    i have some thoughts. if you’ll indulge me.
    .
    .
    “To be honest, I think the comment section of this blog too often turns into a “lets bash all Calvinists all the time” party.”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    many who comment here have had their lives destroyed by degrees by people who hold to calvinist theology. which included their lives being controlled to the point of remaining silent and smiling. on penalty of loss of their community, their friends, their family. and it was implied loss of being a legitimate christian, loss of relationship with God & God’s love and one’s eternal destiny.

    they have suffered, been treated as less than human. they need to speak, let it out, and process things with their voice (which they have regained).

    i think you can give them a break.
    ————-

    “I am not a Calvinist. But a very good friend of mine is. I think that he gravitated towards it for mere carnal reasons. …

    All that said, he is not an enemy, nor is he especially more wrong in his theology than you or I am. This requires humility.”
    ++++++++++++++

    the problem is the push to evangelize all of christendom with Calvinism. It is infiltrating Assemblies of God churches, compromising their own position papers.

    Anyone see Pixar’s “The Incredibles”, where Mr. Incredible is shot at with little black globules which stick to his body and start growing and growing and tightening and tightening until they completely cover him and restrict all his movement?

    well, that’s what it’s like. i get claustrophobia just thinking about it.

    perspective is getting crowded out. calvinism is like growing fungus, eating away at freedom of thought, on a quest for a monopoly over christian minds.

    in cold sobriety, it’s as ridiculous as it is dangerous.

    as if only they are right (no one else). as if the God of the universe can be contained in a box of calvinism. as if the eternal destiny of all of humanity hinges on that one system.

    as if they don’t realize their logical conclusion of a very lonely heaven.
    ————

    “I frankly am concerned about the constant Calvin pounding here because some of you can make up to 50 negative Calvin comments every single week! So it sure looks like an obsession and I wonder if you all turned that around to making 50 encouraging comments directed towards others each week, if that would be better orthopraxy.”
    +++++++++++

    i’ve exited church culture because only happy smiles are permitted. one is not allowed to voice truth that is negative. at least, not without losing friendship and community by degrees.

    it’s a totalitarian society, by degrees. (some more than others)

    perhaps some here are in the process of vomiting up these cruel, life-choking restrictions. the toxic poison has to process out. let them be.
    ————–

    “… It is the obsession with them and many comments that have a bitter tone to them that concern me. You can criticize things without being bitter. You can also do that while being bitter. Being obsessed to the point that all you do is slam a particular Christian sub-group constantly is a sign that something is off!”
    +++++++++++

    keep in mind that oftentimes what christians deem bitter is simply unvarnished and realistic. without the syrup.

    perhaps you’ve overdosed on sweet things and over-processed fast food (like when on a vacation). don’t you just crave something raw and refined? like, a crunchy cold apple or carrot. or the grainiest of breads.

    i reckon your average TWW commenter is sick — SICK — of syrup poured over cotton candy that is the diet of christian church culture. longing for the raw crunchy apple.

    me? i’m dishing out raw broccoli that i’m happily munching on. probably some pine needles and pinecone in there, too.

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  72. Jerome: “I’ve known Tom since he was six years old…Grace Baptist Christian school in Carlisle, PA…a favorite playtime game of his was what he called ‘baby’…his playmates were ‘bad babies’ and needed to be spanked. He, of course, meted out the necessary punishment”

    Want to make any bets on where that behavior came from?

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  73. dee: Thank you for your kind comment. I also hope that he gets a sentence in which he must serve each term consecutively. It will give Chantry a long time to contemplate his issues and make peace with God. God is not pleasde with those who hurt children…

    I don’t know if people like him can change. They walk into prison and immediately size up how to get the best of that situation, forever sizing people up and manipulating them. They don’t spend their time pining or regretting, it’s all right here right now. My hope is that he is kept in prison a long time in order to protect the vulnerable, because he will never stop being a dangerous and toxic person.

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  74. Eric Rasmusen:
    I wish people wouldn’t use SCRIBD for posting files, though I realize that most people don’t know how to use non-proprietary sites. If anyone wants to post something like the defense sentencing memo (or even that exact document), let me know and I’ll put it up on my own website, rasmusen.org. Erasmuse@indiana.edu.Or maybe Wartburg Watch could post it on thewarburgwatch.com?

    Brian:
    Samuel Conner,

    Open question to all, in reference to Samuel’s post: Is this why some of you speak out against Calvinism in general, not just the NeoCals? And, those that proclaim themselves Calvinist are not truly full Calvinist?

    How familiar are you with Calvinism? If you could discribe it in 2-4 sentences, what would your discription be?

    It’s actually a tough question ans I would have a hard time with it. But, if you could, what is it saying?

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  75. Headless Unicorn Guy: And what will be the currency of those payments?
    Becoming the same-sex sex toy of his protector?

    His shrewd powers of manipulation have not gone away just because he was convicted. He will most likely scam supporters into sending him money. He will continue to relate to other people and the world he is in the same way he always has.

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  76. Brian: We don’t know the entire mind of God. We only know what’s written in the Bible.

    Agreed, but there is also the Holy Spirit. Quakers believe in the Inner Light, “that of God in everyone.” Do you ever glean more insight through deep listening prayer than through study of the Bible? The two processes should not be in conflict, of course.

    For me the difference is between finding peace and finding pieces.

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  77. Mr. Jesperson: I really like Julie’s latest blog post. What she said applies equally to most of the “leaders” that are the normal targets of this blog. 8 ways to deflect conviction and refuse to repent for things that are clearly sin as defined by the Bible:

    And all that angst, parry, and counter parry over someone sleeping with her boyfriend huh?

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  78. Lydia: One can look saved, Act saved, talk saved but be a reprobate the whole time and not know it until death because they weren’t actually chosen.

    This is why I think it is such a great excuse for the Chantry supporters to use. They either have to say all the abuse glorified their god somehow and that Chantry remains among the elect, or they can appeal to this overlooked teaching from Calvin as a way to rescue their god’s honor while justifiably throwing Chantry under the bus.

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  79. Lowlandseer: Calvin bashing is the name of the game here.

    Not really. But they do get a lot of well-deserved attention. If they did a better job of policing themselves I am sure there would be much less commenting about them here. On a post highlighting Chantry, why would you expect there to be no mention of his Calvinism?

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  80. elastigirl: i reckon your average TWW commenter is sick — SICK — of syrup poured over cotton candy that is the diet of christian church culture. longing for the raw crunchy apple.

    I was not sure which part ofnyour comment to quote because all of your words here resonate with me. The New-Calvinists spew venom daily while the Old-Calvinists do nearly nothing to quench it.

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  81. Lowlandseer: Calvin bashing is the name of the game here.

    No. It is not the name of the game. Much more goes on here. You just don’t see it because Calvin is such an apple in your eye I fear.

    You more often come to defend Calvin and those that highly honor him, than to comment on the actual article posted.

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  82. Mr. Jesperson: It is the obsession with them and many comments that have a bitter tone to them that concern me. You can criticize things without being bitter. You can also do that while being bitter. Being obsessed to the point that all you do is slam a particular Christian sub-group constantly is a sign that something is off! That is my analysis for whatever that may be worth.

    Oooh, you used the b-word three times in that paragraph. In rapid succession, no less.

    You might want to be a little less cavalier with that word, Mr. J. It has probably been used against many of the commenters here, and weaponized as a thought-stopper to discredit their valid criticisms.

    I presume you knew that Tom Chantry is a Calvinist, as are his supporters. Did you really expect that commenters wouldn’t make note of their theology, or point out inconsistencies between that and their behaviour?

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  83. Catholic Gate-Crasher: Wow, KenF. Thanks. And yikes. “Evanescent grace.”

    Exactly where is that in Scripture, I wonder?

    Oh, that Calvinist god. He’s such a prankster!

    Thanks for that–“evanescent grace”! It appears in the various confessions of the Calvinistic faith, but not exactly in those words. I must remember those two words so I can ask the Calvinists I confront why they believe they think they’re of the elect. After all, it could be evanescent grace.

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  84. Bridget,

    You are talking nonsense I’m afraid. Most of what goes on here is blaming Calvin for the world’s ills and most folk have been saying the same old same old for years – at least since 2011 when I first joined the conversation – and I include myself in the repetition. But I do it with a smile on my face – which you can’t see because you don’t think Calvinists have that facial function. 🙂 Fortunately I can attempt an emoji to give you an idea of what I mean.

    And evanescence’s Grace is a description of what appears to occur in the parable of the Sower.

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  85. elastigirl: i’ve exited church culture because only happy smiles are permitted. one is not allowed to voice truth that is negative. at least, not without losing friendship and community by degrees.

    it’s a totalitarian society, by degrees. (some more than others)

    perhaps some here are in the process of vomiting up these cruel, life-choking restrictions. the toxic poison has to process out. let them be.

    I think you’ve said things better than I could have.

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  86. Lowlandseer: And evanescence’s Grace is a description of what appears to occur in the parable of the Sower.

    Maybe, but Calvin did not appeal to that passage as support for it. And that passage seems to put responsibility on the person who receives the word, whereas evanescent grace is given to a person and then withdrawn with no choice by the person receiving it. Calvin had to invent it to explain how people can appear to be Christians in every way but then reject it later in life. If people can walk away by their own choice it negates the I and the P in TULIP. So to hold Calvinism together it must be that God caused the false faith.

    I am wondering whether or not Chantry supporters will use this teaching as an explanation for Chantry’s fall. It seems like a very good explanation from a Calvinistic point of view. What do you think? Is this a good explanation or is there a better explanation?

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  87. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I must remember those two words so I can ask the Calvinists I confront why they believe they think they’re of the elect.

    There is almost no chance that you will find a Calvinist who knows about it. Most Calvinists confuse it with common grace, which is something entirely different. But it’s still a good question to ask.

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  88. Lowlandseer: Calvin bashing is the name of the game here.

    I’m afraid you misunderstand what is happening here. It is a discussion and what you are seeing is the opinions of others on the subject. As much as possible, I allow comments because far too many churches and organizations ignore how people fell about them. I think it is time thatch people hear what is said and thought.

    Let me suggest how you should look at this comments. “Gee, a bunch of people seem to be upset over Calvinist theology. Why is that? As I look to share God’s truth with my neighbor, maybe I should take into account that they may share some similar thoughts to those supposed *Calvin bashers.*I’ve got an idea. Maybe I could respond to them and attempt to show them what I think in a manner that might open the door for me”

    Just in case you think that I don’t do the same, let me remind folks that I spent a number of years, before I started blogging, on ExChristians.net trying to figure out why people leave the faith. I also tried to share some thoughts at times and got slammed. Over the years, I learned from these folks. I learned that many of their concerns were valid. I learned that far too many people had been involved in churches that were authority driven and rules oriented.

    I never once said *You people are just Christian bashers.* Instead, I sat back and learned. It was humbling. I discovered that some of the old apologetics talking points didn’t work so well. I needed to stretch.

    As you know, I am a conservative Lutheran. Lutherans believe that people can leave the faith and do not subscribe to the *P* in Tulip-the preservation of the saints. In the years I spent on ExChristians, learning, I realized that some of these folks were deeply committed Christians at one time or another and got seriously burned. I don’t buy the typical Reformed explanation that these people were never Christian to begin with. After that the *P* was a *no go*for me ands I was pleased to find the Lutherans agree with what I observed.

    However, I would still have joined my church had they chose to teach the preservation of the saints. The reason for this is that Lutherans allow for a freedom of conscience. That doesn’t mean I should jump in and change them to my way of thinking. You would find me a helpful and supportive church member.

    The final nail in the coffin is Wade Burleson. Rochelle and he have been supportive of me. He is one of the most loving pastors that I know. I have learned from him. You should see his comment section. He accepts all sorts of comment, including serious criticism. He does so with grace and kindness.

    He knows full well that I’m not Reformed in my theology. In fact, recent he said something about that in a post to point out how we can still admire one another. I feature his sermons since I believe he is loving and kind. His church has offered counseling to readers if they have some needs. So, that alone stands as a testimony to the open nature of this blog.

    Like Wade, I allow tons of comments on this blog. But, he is even more open than I am. One person I banned from this blog is a frequent comment at his. I watched how he dialoged with Mark Galli of Christianity Today. He deeply disagreed with Mark but he came off as kind and gracious in the midst of a serious disagreement (The Ed Stetzer VW deal.) Upon reading how he responded, I stopped and prayed that I would be as kind and gracious as Wade is in disagreements. He is a role model to me.

    So, all around not bad for a blog that *bashes Calvinism.*

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  89. dee: So, all around not bad for a blog that *bashes Calvinism.*

    And it’s not a case where the bashing only goes one way. The New-Calvisist are zealous bashers of non-Calvinists. They seem to be able to dish it out but not take it. Some of us need a place to process what we experienced at their hands, and you have provided a venue where we can do this.

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  90. Brian: [the Holy Spirit is] there to help us understand His Word.

    Unless the Bible is completely wrong on this (and I understand that this could well be the case) the Holy Spirit is there for much, much more than that. Indeed, the Bible bizarrely seems to imply that it was authored by the Holy Spirit, rather than the other way around.

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  91. Nathan Priddis,

    Other than there being only those elected, I couldn’t tell you.

    John MacArthur intimates nonperformance is not being saved. RC Sproul, I got insight on the Golden Chain. Listening to the Baptist Bible Hour, Primitive Baptist (Reformed), affirmed what I was wondering aboutEphesians 6:5. If “wrath” included child abuse. So other than there being an “elect”, I couldn’t tell you.

    I wasn’t attacking those of the reformed belief specifically. It was the political philosophy derived from it and its extrapolation to do things.

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  92. elastigirl: i MUST hear about it! Can you describe?

    One new years eve about 7 years ago. We were driving home. Saw 3 bright lights in triangle formation, equidistant from each other. Moving steady speed from east to west. When we got home they past over the house. We got out of the car. Moonless night. Clear about -30c. No sound as they moved. Jet would have made sound on a night like that. Helicopter more so. And those lights were definitely not aircraft nav lights. By law the wings have to be red and green with blinking tail.
    Anyhow figure it was big, black, triangular & massive – bigger than a commercial airliner.
    The silence really gave us the heebs.
    Anyhow we live in a suburb of a 700000 person city & nothing was in the papers the next day.
    Could have been an experimental something.

    I laughed because my wife serms to always have paranormal experiences.

    She didn’t find it to funny.

    The only time we talked about it we got laughed at so we don’t usually share it.

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  93. Nathan Priddis: How familiar are you with Calvinism?

    The problem is that everyone who disagrees with Calvinism has misunderstood it. It follows logically from this that everyone, if they understood Calvinism, would agree with it, apart from evil people who wouldn’t count.

    This is why I recommend Nickism.

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  94. Jack,

    i will never laugh. if you see another one, if you see sasquatch, tell me all about it.

    triangular formation… i assume a flat triangle? was it moving with the flat side parallel to earth, or perpendicular to earth? (i’m guessing the former)

    how big? what can you compare it to?

    have you seen footage from the phoenix lights? what do you think?

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  95. Nick Bulbeck: The problem is that everyone who disagrees with Calvinism has misunderstood it.

    By the deceee made in eternity past. Since no one can change that decree it makes no sense to try to change anyone’s mind because one can never not be compliant with that decree. By definition. It’s all very simple.

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  96. elastigirl: how big? what can you compare it to?

    During July 4 fireworks, something mysterious and silent, with incredibly bright lights, showed up over our neighborhood. I thought it was large and high up. It turned out to be a very small drone mounted with a camera. Our neighbor was recording his own fireworks and other nearby displays.

    I had never seen a drone at night, and am not discounting anyone else’s expertise or experiences. Drones are so bright and weird that they can be deceiving.

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  97. elastigirl: i will never laugh. if you see another one, if you see sasquatch, tell me all about it.

    Back in July of 1982, I was taking a college astronomy class, as was my mom. The teacher had taken the college’s 8″ refracting telescope and the class out to a local high place at 10 pm one Friday night. While my mom and I were waiting our turn at the telescope, we were taking turns with my binoculars checking the horizon to the north. We both saw it. A bright purplish light just hovering at about 30 degrees above the horizon. Then it started moving back and forth very fast. Then it moved in a triangular pattern. Then it moved west very fast and was gone. We puzzled over it. It moved too fast to be a plane of helicopter and reversed course too abruptly for those, as well. We have no idea what it was.

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  98. Jeannette Altes,

    very interesting! aside from being purple, was it like light from an aircraft’s lightbulb that we’re all used to seeing, or did the light have a different quality (hazy, glowy,…)? did you have a sense as to its size? how far away?

    thanks for sharing!!!

    (i’m counting on folks not to start making things up, here)

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  99. elastigirl,

    Not making it up. I wouldn’t mess with you that way. 🙂

    At first, we thought it was an airplane. Your mind will interpret what you see into what expect and there is an airport right near and sometime, when they are coming straight at you, planes look like they’re not moving. But the more it just sat there, the more it seemed strange – and the color wasn’t right. The light was a little fuzzier, maybe, than an airplane, but it was just after dusk. When it moved, it really got our attention because it was fast and changed course so abruptly, with no curve to the turn, like a plane. It can’t have been very big because there was a mountain range about 25 miles north of us and when it started the triangular pattern, it was between us and the mountains. Again, I have no idea what it was. Being 1982, it wasn’t someone’s drone. We weren’t far from the Utah desert at the time, so it’s possible it was some sort of test thing.

    It was funny – a couple of years later, I was telling a friend and they got a funny look on their face and asked me the date and time. I told them and they said they had seen it, too, though from a different angle, 20 mIles east of where we had been.

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  100. Jeannette Altes,

    interesting!! could it have been NORAD-related? i prefer to imagine the far reaches of outter space, time dilation, wormholes…

    (yeah, my request for folks not to take advantage of my ‘childlike faith in UFOs’ wasn’t for you. more like for NICK!)

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  101. Nickname,

    “Yes. I saw it once. After a service one night, a SG pastor came running down the aisle to me with tears in his eyes, and sincerely apologized for what he had done to me. It was one of the most astounding things I’ve ever experienced.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    ha! at first i thought you were talking about a UFO sighting.

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  102. Albert Louis Maksel: Sadly and with remorse, I was a duped member of Grace Baptist, Carlisle, PA. while his father was pastor. Gave $200.00 every two weeks. God have mercy on me.

    Here’s the way I look at that Albert. The American church – in all its various expressions – are full of good people who give from a right heart to support ministries outside the will of God. They don’t know that when they give, or they surely would not finance a phony minister and his ministry. There is much in the church which looks good, but falls short of God’s plan for His people … it’s becoming increasingly difficult to discern the genuine vs. the counterfeit. If you gave your time and resources not knowing this, God certainly extends his mercy to forgive you. The deceiver is at work in the church; we need to pray for a new measure of discernment to detect his activity.

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  103. Max: The deceiver is at work in the church; we need to pray for a new measure of discernment to detect his activity.

    I agree, but we can also use simple criteria to size up a church. Does it feed the hungry, give water to the thirsty, clothe the naked, welcome the stranger, visit the sick and imprisoned? If people can use Matthew 18:15-17 as a checklist, why not Matthew 25:35-40?

    The healthier churches near me offer these services: weekday preschool and Head Start, use of playgrounds, space for scout groups and 12-step meetings, outreach to a home for women released from prison, a prison Bible study, preparation of meals for two homeless shelters, weekday distribution of sandwiches, annual collection of school clothing and winter coats, and a drop-in ministry for people who need everything from bus tokens to legal advice. Most of these programs are open to the entire community at little or no cost (with the exception of preschool tuition).

    Beware the church that cares only for its own. It sends a message that everyone else is bad, unworthy, and scary.

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  104. Albert Louis Maksel,
    Max,

    Max: “If you gave your time and resources not knowing this, God certainly extends his mercy to forgive you. ”
    +++++++++++++

    as i see it, there’s nothing to forgive. i believe karma is a law of the universe (which God set up) — i’m counting on karma to have its favorable way with Albert.

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  105. elastigirl: (yeah, my request for folks not to take advantage of my ‘childlike faith in UFOs’ wasn’t for you. more like for NICK!)

    Who’s NICK? Is that an acronym? Is he a proponent of NICKism? If so, steer clear of him. NICKism is a gross distortion of Nickism.

    Bear in mind that I love complexity. I’m genuinely interested in anyone’s experience of the strange and inexplicable.

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  106. Friend: we can also use simple criteria to size up a church. Does it feed the hungry, give water to the thirsty, clothe the naked, welcome the stranger, visit the sick and imprisoned? If people can use Matthew 18:15-17 as a checklist, why not Matthew 25:35-40?

    Amen! If it’s all bells and whistles with very little outreach to those in need, it’s doing church without God. If the “pastor” spends more time on the golf course or in the coffee shop than visiting folks in hospitals and nursing homes, he is not a pastor. If the pew enjoys jumping to the beat of the drum but not jumping into their cars to take care of widows and orphans, it’s all for nought.

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  107. Nick Bulbeck,

    “Who’s NICK? Is that an acronym? Is he a proponent of NICKism? If so, steer clear of him. NICKism is a gross distortion of Nickism.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    just trying to summon you. conjure you up. for all our fun.
    —————–

    “Bear in mind that I love complexity. I’m genuinely interested in anyone’s experience of the strange and inexplicable.”
    +++++++++++++

    what fun conversations we could have. we could form the Strange-&-Inexplicable club. (i dunno, couldn’t think of any other name)

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  108. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    elastigirl: we could form the Strange-&-Inexplicable club

    Wouldn’t John Piper be a natural member of that club?
    ++++++++++++++

    oooh, yeah,….hmmmm…..didn’t think about that. well, that would sure mess things up, wouldn’t it!

    it could be the Strange-&-Inexplicable-But-Not-If-You-Resemble-A-Weasel Club.

    would that do it?

    (could tack on “-And-Overcompensate-With-Big-Hand-Gestures” just to be on the safe side)

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  109. Ken F (aka Tweed),
    ishy,
    Nick Bulbeck,
    Jeannette Altes,
    Jack,
    Friend,
    +++++++++++++++

    well, perhaps we have our original founding members of the Strange-And-Inexplicable-But-Not-If-You-Resemble-A-Weasel-And-Overcompensate-With-Big-Hand-Gestures Club.

    (The SAIBNIYRAWAOWBHGC. I’m sure there’s a gaelic word that sounds like this.)

    And i have our first topic:

    Did Jesus die for extraterrestrials?

    oooooooooh it’s a fascinating topic!

    (in fact, some years ago Old John J wrote a guest post that touched on this question. at least, it came up somehow. it was so interesting. can’t find it though)

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  110. Lowlandseer: You are talking nonsense I’m afraid.

    My experience of your comments are not nonsense. Is it possible that you just don’t want to hear what the people here have experienced in Neo-Cal environments? You are always trying to prove that what they learned in the environment is wrong . . . not really what Calvin taught. But the fact remains that they were taught, and it has sadly harmed many.

    Personally, I could care less what Calvin believed or taught. (I do have a copy of the Institutes that I have read bits and pieces of even though it is thicker than a bible!) I don’t put any trust in Calvin whatsoever and I do get tired of all the talk about his teachings, although I understand the need to share one’s thoughts.

    Lowlandseer: But I do it with a smile on my face – which you can’t see because you don’t think Calvinists have that facial function.

    You may think I think this, but the thought actually never crossed my mind.

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  111. elastigirl,

    The acronym actually looks like a cross between gaelic and welsh… 😉

    As to aliens… perhaps, as C S Lewis seemed to suggest, they wouldn’t need him to as they, perhaps, didn’t fall… or said another way, if necessary…

    But, if they are not human, God as human would have no relevance and they would need to encounter God in their own form?

    Just a few thoughts…

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  112. Nick Bulbeck: Who’s NICK? Is that an acronym? Is he a proponent of NICKism? If so, steer clear of him. NICKism is a gross distortion of Nickism.

    Bear in mind that I love complexity. I’m genuinely interested in anyone’s experience of the strange and inexplicable.

    elastigirl: Did Jesus die for extraterrestrials?

    I suppose we first have to define extraterrestrial…

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  113. elastigirl: (in fact, some years ago Old John J wrote a guest post that touched on this question. at least, it came up somehow. it was so interesting. can’t find it though)

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/07/26/exobiology-and-theology-to-boldy-go-where-no-blog-has-gone-before/

    Since this post is 6 years old an update is in order: The James Webb Space Telescope is now scheduled for a March, 2021 launch. If all goes as planned there could be results of exoplanet atmosphere observations in 5 years.

    Also since the original post a meme along the lines that life is inevitable where ever the conditions are appropriate thus should be common has become prominent. A single positive observation will accepted as proving there is life in other solar systems. A negative conclusion will never be accepted because there is an almost infinite number of places to check and most are inaccessible to our observations.

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  114. oldJohnJ,

    Always a pleasure to hear from you, OJJ; and I, too, am eagerly awaiting what the James Webb might show us. Though I also wish they’d hurry up and dig for microbes on Mars (realising, of course, that it’s not quite as simple as I made it sound). To say nothing of Europa…

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  115. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    Thank you for bringing up and explaining this “Evanescent Grace” thing.

    I searched (the mostly knowing) Google for “Evanescent Grace” and came upon this article which I thought was rather interesting – if you can call trying to make sense of Calvin’s theology interesting that is.

    https://shamelesspopery.com/assurance-of-salvation-and-evanescent-grace/

    What a convoluted, unintelligible, mess of a theology.

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  116. Ken F (aka Tweed): the silent point of Calvinism … “Evanescent Grace.” It is an “inferior operation of the Spirit” where certain reprobate are given a “vanishing” grace that is temporarily indistinguishable from true saving faith, but later withdrawn so they can be judged more severely for having it

    Well, if this doesn’t convince you of the ails of reformed theology, nothing will. There is nothing inferior about the Holy Spirit … a true touch of Grace never vanishes. It’s amazing that so many otherwise intelligent people follow the Calvinist God … 90% of Christendom worldwide have rejected the tenets of reformed theology for the last 500 years.

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  117. Afterburne: What a convoluted, unintelligible, mess of a theology.

    I learned about it here on TWW a few years ago. What surprises me most about it is the overwhelmingly lopsided coverage it gets. One can find tons of articles by non-Calvinists criticizing/exposing it, but nearly nothing by Calvinists defending/promoting it. The ones who do nearly unanimously confuse it with common grace (by definition it is very uncommon) or with someone acting like a believer but not really believing. But this is not what Calvin wrote anout. He wrote that it a form of grace given by God alone that is indistinguishable from true saving grace, at least in the minds of the repbrobate who experience it. That means no one who thinks they are saved can be sure that they are not one of those reprobates who have been purposely deceived by god.

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  118. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    The thought occurs to me that one might be able to construct an argument for the validity of a doctrine of “evanescent hardening” from Paul’s discussion in Romans 9-11. God partially hardens Israel in order to “make room” for the ingathering of Gentiles, but in the end, “all Israel will be saved.” This is more or less David Hart’s treatment of the text in his “The Moral Meaning of Creation Ex Nihilo”, though he doesn’t call it that.

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  119. Samuel Conner: The thought occurs to me that one might be able to construct an argument for the validity of a doctrine of “evanescent hardening” from Paul’s discussion in Romans 9-11.

    I don’t remember where I heard it, and I don’t have time to look up the details, but I once heard that the word “harden” is related to the word “strengthen.” So in the case of God “hardening” Pharaoh’s heart, it could be along the lines of “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.” Pharaoh really did not want to “let my people go” but the 10 plagues caused him to lose heart. So God “strengthened” him to do what he really wanted to do all along even though he was too afraid to do it.

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