2

On the other hand, in fairness to all, if we were to remove every pastor or church servant who did something in their youth they are ashamed of or regret, we would probably have no ministers at all. Praise God for Jesus who gives us a new life when we turn ours over to him!

Did this COB spokeshole get so Spiritual he didn’t notice what he was actually saying?

i.e. “Pedophilia + Incest?
EVERY PASTOR DOES IT!
PRAISE GOD!”

P.S. is Church of the Brethren related to the United Brethren Church?
If so, how close? (I suspect some sort of schism among PA Dutch Anabaptists some time in the past.)
Reason is I know a guy in the UBC and don’t know whether to give him a heads-up on this.

Susan Ankney:
Dee, thanks for telling my story.The person not mentioned in the story is Eric Yost a newly ordained pastor at the Moxham church of brethren in Johnstown, PA

I’m sorry for what happened to you, Susan. Thanks for sharing your story. We support you.

” … she is not going to travel across the country to meet with the Assessment Team …”

Reminds me of Paige Patterson’s desire to meet with an alleged rape victim so he could “break her down.”

From the church:

However, we have to be very careful because it would be just as detrimental if this was an isolated incident and never happened again.

And here we keep running into this. How are you going to ‘investigate’ if this has happened again, or in the congregation, or to children without TELLING anyone???? You aren’t.

in fairness to all, if we were to remove every pastor or church servant who did something in their youth they are ashamed of or regret, we would probably have no ministers at all.

I sincerely hope ministers can be found who have no sexually abused children, or children in their own family. If not, shut the whole church down and burn the ashes.

Lea: If not, shut the whole church down and burn the ashes.

Burn it down you mean, and then plow it under with salt.

Putting rape “into perspective”, mulling whether to consider it an isolate incident, and wondering if perchance it could be disqualifying as far as leading a church? The ‘above reproach’ standard per 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 (nenver mind rendering unto Caesar and doing unto others as you would nphabe them do unto you) doesn’t seem to be the priority in a lot of these institutions.

Susan Ankney,

Internet hug.

Lea:
From the church:

And here we keep running into this. How are you going to ‘investigate’ if this has happened again, or in the congregation, or to children without TELLING anyone???? You aren’t.

I sincerely hope ministers can be found who have no sexually abused children, or children in their own family. If not, shut the whole church down and burn the ashes.

Their response was too organized. Something similar has happened before, it being with another pastor or member of their denomination. It’s like a corporation’s investigation of itself regarding possible EEOC violations.

Headless Unicorn Guy: COB started as German “Dunkers” and UBC started as a Mennonite offshoot in Baltimore about 50 years later. And each has schismed several times in their history.
Can’t tell the church without a scorecard… “Who’s On First?”

It’s like that Emo Phillips church joke (“the guy on the bridge”).

On a more serious note, there are just so many people who don’t get how damaging child sexual abuse is. And they seem to have worked their way into higher church leadership positions. 🙁

JDV: first cousin

That makes the church’s response even more problematic. If the survivor remains silent, and the church views it as an old he-said-she-said story, how will any other potential victims of alleged incest know that now is a good time to come forward? (As I understand it, a first cousin is a third-degree relative. I don’t know where the alleged abuse took place, but marriage of first cousins is illegal in Pennsylvania.)

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: It’s like that Emo Phillips church joke (“the guy on the bridge”).

Like South Park, “It’s Funny Because It’s True”.

Susan, thank you for telling your story.

dee,

You may have still missed one? Email 2?

Good job covering this story Dee. I agree with your assessment if their emailed responses. It is scary to think that “there would be no pastors” if we actually expected men to meet the qualifications found in I Timothy 3.

The email comes across as tone deaf for sure. The stories on this site all show how inept churches are at getting in front of an issue. Where I am scratching my head a bit, is how do other commenters here (and Dee) think a “he said / she said” issue should be handled? I do not doubt that the story is true, but I can see the conundrum. I also know that anyone that did this at 16 years old has probably done it more than once, which is the bigger concern.

These are dark days for sure. Thankfully, God is near the broken-hearted.

TS00:
There must be ways to investigate these incidents, which probably includes looking for more victims. The rest of their comments are completely off the mark. This is not some childhood mischief-making, but a serious pathology. At the very least they need to check with Susan’s witnesses, who I assume are people she told about the incidents. Again, Susan, I’m sorry and I hope good fruit will come from your efforts.

Start with an environment of grace, not legalism. Any molester could twist scripture to control his victims through fear.

Susan Ankney,

Sue, I’m so proud of you! You are an incredible friend and you constantly inspire me. Thank you for doing the tough thing and speaking up.

Well, another whopping fail by a church without a clue.

it also begs the question as to whether this was something that happened a long time ago, or is it something that has continued throughout his life?

The nature of what he did makes it very unlikely this was a one-time offense, IMO.

What she described was premeditated, manipulative, predatory behavior. It was ongoing and without evidence of conscience or remorse.

Normal people do not just “do” something like this as a one-off and then go back to normal. It really sounds like the behavior of someone who is personality disordered, not that I’m any kind of professional, but come on. What he did was evil. If the church thinks this is anywhere near normal behavior for a 15 year old, they must be used to deviates. It’s very possible that he’s been preying on younger, defenseless people for a very long time.

The developmental difference in age and power between 15 and 10 is large.

Either she is telling the truth and he is a dangerous person or she has made up a horrendous lie, there’s no in between. If they think it is a lie, why would they offer her 4 sessions of counseling?

Honestly, Christians can be the most bumbling, gullible, naive fools sometimes.

George: Where I am scratching my head a bit, is how do other commenters here (and Dee) think a “he said / she said” issue should be handled?

It is currently handled as ‘he said’ is correct unless we mysteriously turn up hardcore evidence without looking or telling anybody, or alternately if it blows up in our face somehow. That’s clearly wrong.

An honest OPEN investigation, with a sidelining of the pastor until it is completed would be a start. I think a lot of these guys, in addition to not wanting to ‘hurt his reputation’ are afraid that if they ASK people in the church if any abuses have happened they might get answers. And then they might have to actually deal with it. They don’t want to, regardless of what happened, so they sweep it all under the wrong.

Siteseer: without evidence of conscience or remorse.

It is maddening how these ‘oh it was a long time ago’ responses leave that bit out.

Of course, it could be they also just don’t believe/value women regardless of what’s true. I’m convinced that’s a significant part of the problem.

Lea: Of course, it could be they also just don’t believe/value women regardless of what’s true. I’m convinced that’s a significant part of the problem.

Now, what do you think a male predator is going to say when confronted about such an alleged event? It doesn’t take a second to know he is going to say ‘She made it all up’. Then, often, add such helpful explanations as ‘She was always sort of unreliable’ or ‘She was always jealous of me, and just wants to take me down’.

I am not going to say that such things never happen. Certainly a women could make a completely false accusation just to hurt someone. That’s why an investigation needs to be made, as to the general character of the two individuals, any ‘issues’ other family members might note, etc.

One of the really big problems with this whole situation is the fact that predatory behavior nearly always takes place where there are no witnesses. And abusers are often extremely clever at hiding their ‘other self’. Take the case of the Scottish pastor who hung himself, after being found guilty of carrying on with multiple women. He was extremely highly regarded in reformed circles, wrote many books, spoke at conferences, etc. How can anyone live two such contrary lives? I don’t know, but as we have seen, such men are often drawn to the gullible crowd found in churches, where victims are many and trusting. And the ‘office’ gives you instant status as pure and good.

George,

“Where I am scratching my head a bit, is how do other commenters here (and Dee) think a “he said / she said” issue should be handled?”
++++++++++++++++

by the police, not by church leaders, for starters. (since it’s a crime)

Stinson is a CBMW stalwart (preceded Owen Stachan as executive director) and was involved in the shift to ‘Nouthetic’ counseling at SBTS:

http://www.bpnews.net/20152/southern-seminary-launches-new-vision-for-biblical-counseling

(2005) “Southern Baptist Theological Seminary is taking its Christian counseling department in a new direction.”

“Southern has appointed two new professors to help carry out its renewed vision of biblical counseling: Stuart Scott will serve as professor of biblical counseling at both the seminary and in its undergraduate program, Boyce College, while Randy Stinson will serve as assistant professor of gender and family studies.

Currently, Scott is professor of biblical counseling at The Master’s Seminary in Sun Valley, Calif., and is a former pastor of counseling at Grace Community Church, where he served under Pastor John MacArthur. He is the author of the recent book ‘The Exemplary Husband: A Biblical Perspective’.

Stinson has served since 2000 as executive director of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, which is located on the campus of Southern Seminary. Stinson will complete a Ph.D. at Southern in the spring and will also continue as the leader of CBMW.”

Siteseer,

” If the church thinks this is anywhere near normal behavior for a 15 year old, they must be used to deviates.”
+++++++++++++++

or that everyone not in the ‘born again’ club is a little evil goblin, doing sinister and terrible things all the day the long.

as if to say, “well, of course these things are normal for The World.”

Siteseer:
Either she is telling the truth and he is a dangerous person or she has made up a horrendous lie, there’s no in between. If they think it is a lie, why would they offer her 4 sessions of counseling?

This is what I was thinking. There’s no middle ground. If they think she’s a liar, then frankly, she should be sued for libel, but if they think she might be truthful, then there’s no way you can write off this kind of behavior as a harmless one off. This is not a teenage kid caught in the church parking lot back of the car seat with another teenage kid. Rape of a young child is a totally different animal.

Siteseer,

“Honestly, Christians can be the most bumbling, gullible, naive fools sometimes.”
+++++++++++++++

here’s the part Jesus left off in his Good Samaritan parable:

“A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A church leader happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he stopped to take out his bible. Baffled, he started riffling through the pages for the step-by-step instructions and could be heard mumbling, ‘what to do….what to do….'”

elastigirl: by the police, not by church leaders, for starters. (since it’s a crime)

Although in this case, this would probably not be a viable option? Since the statute of limitations is past, I don’t imagine they would spend any time, money or effort in pursuing the case.

elastigirl: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A church leader happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he stopped to take out his bible. Baffled, he started riffling through the pages for the step-by-step instructions and could be heard mumbling, ‘what to do….what to do….’”

That’s ‘biblical counseling’ in a nutshell. 😉 Only, they wouldn’t start with the bible – they would start with the handbook, written by men, telling them what the bible allegedly says. Likely he would start by condemning him for his lack of modesty, laying there naked in the street. Sorry for the snark, but this biblical counseling stuff is tightly interwoven with the Calvinist takeover, as a prior comment quotes an SBC article touting its ‘renewed vision of biblical counseling’. Goes right along with its renewed vision of the gospel.

TS00,

“Although in this case, this would probably not be a viable option? Since the statute of limitations is past, I don’t imagine they would spend any time, money or effort in pursuing the case.”
+++++++++++++

church leaders then join the effort and use their influence to abolish statute of limitations.

Jerome,

Whew! Dr. Al is quickly stacking up Mohlerites as the new leaders at SWBTS! Something I “prophesied” would happen after Patterson’s exit … actually before his exit. It was just a matter of time before the wave of SBC Calvinization swept into SWBTS; Patterson’s scandalous departure gave the new reformers an opening sooner than they expected. Sad to see the 150+ year Southern Baptist identity change; they have forfeited their denominational gifting in evangelism. New Calvinism is arrogant, militant, aggressive, deceptive, and manipulative … “God-things” are not.

Friend: The [Anabaptist Mennonite Biblical Seminary’s] former president, Marlin Miller, learned of Yoder’s activities shortly after becoming president in 1975 and tried to convince Yoder that his theology was flawed. The scholarly discussion continued for nearly a decade, abetted by Yoder’s periodic threats of legal action.

What stood out to me in the above statement:

Miller confronted Yoder on the basis of THEOLOGY.
Not that he was acting like a sexual predator.
http://i1.wp.com/www.nakedpastor.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/the-theologians.jpg

TS00: Now, what do you think a male predator is going to say when confronted about such an alleged event? It doesn’t take a second to know he is going to say ‘She made it all up’. Then, often, add such helpful explanations as ‘She was always sort of unreliable’ or ‘She was always jealous of me, and just wants to take me down’.

If he has not “added such helpful explanations” before the “alleged event”, as part of the Grooming process. Predators don’t only Groom their victims; successful ones also Groom third parties (especially authority figures) as allies in advance. Thus when the victim comes forward, her cries fall on pre-deafened, previously Groomed ears allied with the predator.

“Go ahead and squeal, Tattle Tale! Nobody will EVER Believe You! Because You’re the Crazy Kid and I’m the Sweet Little Angel!”

Patti: It has been 100 percent my experience so far that every response that sounds exactly like this has preceded the exposure of similar type crimes committed by the responder himself.

That WOULD fit in with the “BUT EVERYBODY DOES IT!” synopsis of the official respone.

My two cents, admittedly affected by having a mentally ill friend who HAS made false allegations against multiple men. And before you mentally tar and feather her, she WAS legitimately a victim as a young child, just not of the men she has accused. It has been proven repeatedly in court they were innocent. Sometimes multiple stranger witnesses testified she was NOT assaulted. So here goes:

First step is call the police. But if the statute of limitations means they will not investigate, the church then needs to get the local D.A. to recommend an independent investigator. If they cannot get that input they should turn over every rock, even call Dr. Phil, to get a completely unbiased investigation done.

During that investigation the accused has the right to counsel, to pay, and to respect but must never be in a situation where further abuse could occur. How that looks will vary by church. (A church consisting of 12 geezers may be happy letting him preach. A church with children may prefer to put him on a sabbatical.)

All should understand the accused has every right to launch his own investigation if he denies the charges. It may be helpful if he can prove he was not physically where she alleges (maybe out of town or at a meeting or whatever.) He has every right to have the alleged victim investigated. Obviously if the victim has a reputation of lying, manipulating, histrionics, or mental health issues he should be able to defend himself from that. No one should want to see anyone railroaded for something they did NOT do. (In one of my friend’s alleged incidents where she claimed sexual harassment and unwanted innuendo and attention, I was present. The man she made the claim against was talking to a group of guys and never looked her way. He was at least 15 ft away from her.)

I believe generally what starts out he said she said will pretty quickly develop into one clearly covering up or lying and the other not.

If the victim is truly the victim, I prefer lethal injection of the perp but since the law frowns on that at the absolute very least the abuser should be fired immediately, blackballed for life, and made very public to be an abuser. Polite society should have no place for such a pariah.

By the same token, if the alleged victim proves unstable, get her all the help she needs and publicly clear his name, even if it embarrasses her. He should not have to suffer for her illness. If she proves not unstable, but lying for any reason (vindictiveness, attention, etc) she should suffer the same ills the alleged perp should have suffered had he been guilty.

Because of my mentally ill friend I do not automatically “believe the victim” since there may be no victim, just an accuser. But that does not mean I automatically believe the accused is innocent, either. I prefer to wait out the investigation.

I will also state that at one point I joined a church unaware the pastor had had his credentials suspended in another state for allegedly behaving improperly towards a young woman. He was fired and later she took his job. He changed states and again became a pastor. We were told that years later she admitted it was all a lie. Perhaps it was, since eventually he left us and went back to that other state a credentialed pastor again. But I wondered, since when he left it was very sudden and just as suddenly his younger married female song leader left the church “because we are moving out of town” only she and her family never moved an inch.

So I am wary, but slow to act without a proper investigation.

Friend: Others have said to call the police, which is right for a recent alleged crime; and abolish statutes of limitations, or at least don’t work against their abolition.

Susan Ankney is alleging very serious, detailed, long-term abuse. I would think that a psychological profile of the alleged rapist, completed by an independent expert, is warranted. The denomination should pay for this and require it. The survivor would probably have to participate for this to be complete and even handed. Findings should be shared with a group that invites/includes the survivor and church members as well as the accused man and denomination.

Since the story is spreading, the church should also hold one or more meetings with all of the adult members to discuss the allegation. All of this attention will reach the man’s family. If more victims are out there, they will probably hear about it and decide whether to come forward.

I don’t have a detailed design in mind. These are just some ideas to break the silence.

I also think the offer of counseling puts the denomination in legal hot water. Why would they pay to address a situation they basically deny?

Just my two cents’ worth…

The offer of help, feels like a preemptive move. Having been in a Americans with Disability Act case, their offer looks like an out of court settlement. Since the blog post also mentioned he went to two sessions, the overall context sounds like an avoidance of civil action.

Law Prof: Most would be better off if they resigned tomorrow.

As a pastor of 40 years I do not find this the case. It is true of some but not the majority in churches I know well. I would have made a lot more as a engineer (fwiw, my fraternity brother at Ga Tech recently retired as CEO of Walmart). I averaged over 60 hours per week in ministry. I can look back and see God’s grace. 80 % of the couples I did pre-marital counseling with and did their weddings are still married (average 30+ years). I still keep up with many of them and their kids and grand-kids.

I am a firm believer in jailing child molesters regardless of profession. The one pastor I worked with that I know is a child/youth molester is doing 40 years (been in a Texas prison since 2001).

Discovering and dealing with these predators is difficult and we must keep aware and take as much precaution as possible. I also worked for a number of years with YMCA camps and that provides opportunities for perverts to prowl as well.

But for the MANY pastors who are faithful to their biblical calling I am truly grateful.

Anonymous Grandma: So, molesting a child on multiple occasions, followed by at least two actual rapes of the same child, is “an isolated instance,” as opposed to “a pattern of behavior… that cannot be ignored or accepted”? How absurd.

… Committing the same crime over and over is the very definition of “a pattern of behavior.”

Marilyn Van Derbur, author of “Miss America by Day”, and survivor, has said that after her father died, others came forward to testify that he had abused girls until the day he died in his mid-70’s. The pattern doesn’t go away with age.

Van Derbur also states that it has taken decades for her to face what happened to her as a daughter growing up. Decades. The damage also doesn’t go away overnight.

https://www.missamericabyday.com/

TS00: Sometimes I think there is no hope.

“…these three remain: faith, hope and love, … the greatest being love.” 1 Cor. 13:13.

Lovingly, we appreciate the shepherds God has put in place, and tough lovingly deal with those out of place.

Finally, we also know that the Holy Spirit has gifted every Christian for the Church: Rom. 12, 1 Cor. 12, and Eph. 4; and then we can seek, lovingly, where are all 18 gifts, pastor included, acknowledged, appreciated, openly activated, rewarded – not necessarily with $ – for being true to their gift/calling?

Maybe the gift is not in a building or have a titled position. For example, I often sense the gift of discernment on this blog.

How do you know when you need counseling?

I’ve never been abused. I’ve never abused anyone.
Until I was 30 to my embarrassment I thought the statistics I heard about sex abuse were exaggerated.
I’m churches I heard a testimony here and there about a woman saying they had been molested. I heard a minister once say that one in four women studying st some bible college had been molested. At the time it seemed hard to believe..

It always seemed like a crime that was far away. Like a murder that happens in another town – something on the news.

I was brought up in churches with strict teaching on sexuality. The type where people wrestled over questions of whether masturbation and oral sex were sins or acceptable.

So, after I’m 30 I hear that a super respected famous preacher molested kids. A man everyone thought was “apostolic”. Then later a man who seemed to be the father of the year type who I idolized was found to have engaged in some kind sexual activity with his daughters

I’m not the victim. But learning this shocked me and has left me with depression that always seems to hang around.

The two men I mentioned were not suspected of being like that. They were both the last people anyone would think. So, were they evil creeps who pretended they were “decent”, or can I “mostly nice” person do evil things a few times in their lives? I honestly don’t know.

And not knowing depresses me. I grew up thinking someone that touches a child once should be shot. Until I heard about someone who did – and imagined what THEIR wife, mother, sister, child, friend would feel if he were arrested, sentenced etc.

And, now I find myself thinking about men I know and wondering if they could do that kind of thing,

And – now I’m married to a woman who says she was molested and had to stay awake to fight off being molested by family members and only since being married to me has been able to sleep the night through.

I honestly never imagined the world was this bad.

I lived for decades feeling I was probably not “saved” because I thought I couldn’t be “pure”.

And then I find that a man telling people that masturbation was sinful and would lead to immorality and seemed so holy – had molested several boys.

I almost lost my faith over it.

And now, I struggle with the question – did these preachers try to stop? By praying, and doing all the things Christians say to do to overcome sin? Or were they fakes to begin with.

Can pedophiles be helped?
How do you stop your son from doing this?

I don’t honestly know how people deal with this.

I ….. don’t know why God doesn’t stop this..

My wife as a little girl said she prayed for God to stop her father from trying to touch her. He didn’t stop him.

I don’t know what I believe anymore..
But reading this site and thinking about this makes me want to give up on the human race.

I’m sorry for rambling. But unless I see a psychiatrist I have nobody to talk about with this.

My friends say “we are all sinners and no sin is worse than others”.

Have any of you ever imagined what it would be like if someone accused your mother or father of sex abuse?

Or if your mother told you an uncle molested them? Can you really say you would call the police straight away?

I honestly don’t know what I would do.

But I’m also older and when I was younger things were different.

Sorry.

Is it possible to delete this post tomorrow..

I know it’s not a productive post.

I’m just “losing my religion”

Susan Ankney,

Susan, I am just so incredibly sorry that this happened to you as a girl, & that now you have to put up with this substandard response from those who have claimed they take your abuse seriously. I want to make a few things clear, as I work in a job with a lot of child safeguarding issues:
1. When it comes to sexual abuse, most of the time abusers do not abuse their victims in front of witnesses, particularly if they are children. It is therefore almost ALWAYS abuser says/victim says, & to say ‘oh because this is he says/she says therefore we can’t do X’ is just nonsense when almost all historical child abuse enquiries deal with that limitation. That is a totally normal circumstance in these situations, & therefore not one that requires any kind of ‘oh we’re so sorry, but…’ fudge. They just need to get this into the hands of people who are able to deal with this because of their training & experience, i.e. any decent Detective who deal with sex crimes.
2. Sometimes juveniles sexually offend for different reasons than adults do, & they do go on to stop offending when they find other ways to do whatever it was they were trying to do – i.e. they look for consensual rather than non-consensual sexual contact, as they now realise consent is important. In your cousin’s case, he shows a lot of scary signs such as isolating you (so there could be no witnesses), threatening you, & repeat offending including rape, that he clearly knows are wrong, that make me afraid that his predatory behaviours – because that is what they were – will continue into adult life. You’re right to be worried for other children, & he probably moved straight on from you to another victim as soon as he could find one.
3. That whole, excuse my language, but utter utter bullshit notion that many people have committed crimes of this level in their youth, & that they’re just youthful indiscretions & so on & let’s leave it all behind like an 80’s haircut is just plain wrong. It minimises an appalling set of crimes committed against you, & it makes out that he was no worse than many men. That’s nonsense, most young people are not child rapists. That is dangerous & naive thinking & easily leads to allowing offenders to continue.
4. He should absolutely not be in the pulpit with child rape in his background. Him not being in the pulpit is NOT, & I want to repeat NOT, comparable to you being raped, in terms of its seriousness & injustice. It’s not even one hundredth as serious. So that is anon-starter as far as I’m concerned, as far as reasons to back off from him are concerned.
5. I hope you will still be taking this to Law Enforcement, in order to report him, irrespective of time elapsed. And do not, under any circumstances, deal with the church, their elders, counsellors or any of their people without an independent advocate with you as you do. Do not deal with them alone, as despite their original words, they are in the process of re-victimising you as either a liar, or someone who needs to put your cousin’s ministry above the safety of children.

Hang in there, you are believed & cared about, & sadly yours is just one of a thousand similar stories.

Susan Ankney,

Hi, Susan. I’m so sorry for these circumstances, for these horrific things you’ve have to carry around for years and years. I stand with you.

dee,

Thanks. I guess my point is this. I know I’m a sinner. I know all about disagreements, lust gluttony, bitterness

So, I too have wondered about Paul not getting on with people. I can understand if a woman or man in ministry fell.

Or a normal Christian. The child abuse stuff for me, is just, incomprehensible.

Here is the irony. Growing up in churches with a non-Christian family, , I resented not having a Christian family. My father was the typical guy who drank, told dirty jokes and bought the odd sexy magazine.

And yet, one of the “men of God” who I grew up wanting to be like, – was molesting boys. So, the spiritual giant was the kind of man that if my father caught would be wanted to kill.

I don’t know all of the detials about Hybels. I was never a fan. That passage in his book where he said he got his assistants to get hard core porn that contained child sex to me is just ridiculous.

I guess I’m naive. I didn’t know that people could just go out and rent it. And if you couldn’t and had to go to some super shaey underground place – can you imagine being the staff worker?

As for watching it knowingly – i often feel sorry for people on a jury who are forced to examine evidence.
I wouldn’t want to.

Actually, does Hybles attand a church now? He spent years talking about the local church. It was seem funny if he weren’t going somewhere.

I have a personal question for you. Running this blog and writing and reading about this stuff all the time – don’t you get to a place where you just want to leave it all and escape?

PS My wife is another one who went to a priest to talk about her father. He didn’t believe her. She said at that point she realized that nobody was going to help her – even God, and she decided to kill herself.

Given all the abuse that is coming out in churches, i think its probably the case that there are thousands, -hundreds of thousands of people around the world who dropped out of church because they or someone they knew was molested. Maybe they never told anyone.

Beakerj: Somehow, in those circles, a teenager kissing his girlfriend is worse, for them, than a Pastor raping a toddler.

Okay, in the church and homeschooling world we were in, it was sinful to even ‘think’ of the opposite sex. Talk about making instant sinners out of every normal young man and woman on the planet! It is simply outrageous, this focus on piety and perfection in righteousness. And yes, well-meaning people, like me, got sucked into a lot of that. Until I saw that it was impractical and unworkable. And yet there was this huge, seemingly well-orchestrated campaign, originating who knows where, to push these ideas relentlessly. It is not, IMO, mere coincidence that one of the tools for pushing them, Joshua Harris, ended up working with CJ Mahaney. There is some sort of ugly octopus underlying all of this faulty theology; and faulty theology can only produce bad fruit.

Beakerj,

TS00,

Both of you guys are right on the money with how absurdly dangerous and stultifying some sects of Christianity have gotten, especially with regard to human sexuality.

linda,

It’s true there are some women – very rare but it does happen–that make false accusations. They will have a history of falsehoods and unstable behavior.

Justaguy,

Justaguy, true religion is not ‘a man telling people that masturbation was sinful and would lead to immorality’. True religion is being a kind, safe, trustworthy person whose previously abused wife can sleep in peace and safety next to.

I think many of us have been in your shoes at one time, dealing with the shock of learning things are not what they seem, that people are often not what they appear to be. You can suddenly wonder if you were the only one who was simple and sincere.

I have come to realize people are often caught up in the very behavior they rail against. So many of those ministers who preach against homosexuality, for example, have turned out to be engaging secretly in the behavior themselves. Sadly, I think that often times the person has been devious from the beginning, crafting a facade to hide behind. The Bible does warn us many times of just such people.

So where do we go from here once we learn these things… Just following the humble way of truth and love seems right to me.

How does one teach his son not to abuse… I am a believer in the old proverb, children learn what they live with. Be the person you’d like to see your children become. It’s not enough to talk the things; children see right through us. You must be the things. Protect them from those who would do them harm, whether they be friends or relatives or pastors. Be honest, be kind, be fair, treat their mother, sisters, pets, and all who are defenseless with respect and love.

God bless you, Justaguy, I hope you stick around, there are good people who understand here.

TS00: I think the institutional church, in large part, looks an awful lot like the established Temple Religion of the Jews, which Jesus repeatedly called out as pretentious, self-centered and of little value. And I suspect that the Religious leaders and their followers were just as brainwashed as we have been that their way was the only way. Interesting that Jesus described himself as ‘The Way’.

And in your next comment you note: what is impractical and unworkable, possibly because some leaders have never held a real job.

Jesus, OTOH, was completely workable and practical, which is how God is today. God is not the Task-Master of the world, as some would have us believe and then put us to work on their precious pressured projects. (Hybels classified people as “A” types, his preference.)

Jesus said his burden is easy and his yoke is light. It is with a moral compass and work-a-day life that is fulfilling from the inside out, with dignity and integrity.

jyjames,

Max,

Building on your thoughts, I don’t think God created us to do church, but to live, work with our hands, create, explore, sing, dance, love, laugh, help our neighbor, hug our kids. The ekklesia was supposed to be more like a support group, where we meet with others with the same goals to share our struggles, encourage one another and hold one another accountable with permission.

The day the institutional church with officers, power, authority, creeds, sacraments, etc. was substituted for an organic body that would look uniquely like the people it was composed of was a very sad day. And we since it’s all we’ve ever known, it is difficult to imagine anything else. So we wander from church to church, and are old the problem is us.

Max: Amen! The Christian experience should be full of joy as we worship and serve Him … not a traumatizing church encounter with charlatans and their minions.

Amen, again.

TS00: I don’t think God created us to do church, but to live, work with our hands, create, explore, sing, dance, love, laugh, help our neighbor, hug our kids

Agreed. The Biblical concept of “church” clearly indicates that we are to ‘be’ the Church, rather than ‘do’ church. We may not ‘go’ to church, but we can be the Church wherever we go. It was my experience (in SBC life for 70 years) that most church folks never get this – you can’t tell them from the world during the week.

I was the Church to my grandson when I prayed over his sick body yesterday, when my wife and I extended a kind word to a hurting widow we met at WalMart, when I encouraged my barber in his Christian outreach to men in his barber’s chair earlier this week, when I provide comments about the counterfeit church on TWW. Those who find Church in the organized church are fortunate indeed … but most of the time I’ve experienced the Body of Christ alive and well outside the bricks and mortar. After wrestling with religious stuff for the better part of a century, I’ve come to accept that it’s OK not to go to church (little “c”) as long you are the Church (big “C”). It’s not about me ‘doing’ good things, but allowing Jesus to do good things through me as He leads. The Kingdom has a different scale for measuring faithfulness than membership in places called church, but aren’t the Church.

Max: you can’t tell them from the world during the week.

Churches should stop giving out bumper stickers, which do an excellent job of highlighting that their members drive like maniacs. I was even cut off by a car with one of those stickers about the vehicle being unmanned at the Rapture. Scared the heck outta me! 😉

Friend: Churches should stop giving out bumper stickers, which do an excellent job of highlighting that their members drive like maniacs.

According to a waitress I know who has worked 30 years at Red Lobster, “Christians” coming fresh from church on Sunday are some of the meanest people on the planet … and the worst tippers. She is a Christian herself – the real deal – and is always startled at the behavior of others who claim to know Christ. I’m not sure why these folks bother to go to church – they could beat the Sunday rush at restaurants if they didn’t!

“According to a waitress I know who has worked 30 years at Red Lobster, “Christians” coming fresh from church on Sunday are some of the meanest people on the planet … and the worst tippers.”
+++++++++++++++++++

revolting

i can think of a few explanations:

1) the christians have just left their exclusive members only born-again club, and must therefore deign to deal with the inferiors of ‘the world’ on the outside. The riffraff they have to endure.

2) having just come from church, the christians are far spent making sure they’ve been behaving in kind, gracious and generous ways (begrudgingly so), all of which the church culture absolutely demands of them.

They feel controlled. The antidote is to express the right to make their own choices, including the choice to turn off graciousness and generosity. They’re worn out by the obligations. They’re tired and they’re done.

Those are the rules of church engagement: Happy, smiley, helpful, self-sacrificing, giving of your finances and time and energy to the point of creating hardship for your self and your family. As soon as the church hat comes off, so does the required behavior.

(boy, this sounds like Pyongyang)

Fruit and Gifts of the Holy Spirit: the local church takes it all for itself.

Max: According to a waitress I know who has worked 30 years at Red Lobster, “Christians” coming fresh from church on Sunday are some of the meanest people on the planet … and the worst tippers.

Often adding insult to injury with those Gospel Tracts disguised as a folded $20 bill.

Which is why the original Jerry Falwell had a reputation around Lynchburg as a big tipper. He was trying to go against that reputation.

SiteSeer: I have come to realize people are often caught up in the very behavior they rail against. So many of those ministers who preach against homosexuality, for example, have turned out to be engaging secretly in the behavior themselves.

Type Example: Ted Haggard.

Though sometimes its explainable as “self-medication in secret”. A ManaGAWD cannot appear to be less than Perfect and Godly (an “Invincible Fuehrer”), especially where his orientation/behavior violates Christian culture’s Deepest Taboo. So he will try to treat himself in secret by going Full-Honk against it in Public. Especially if it’s “The OTHER Guy’s Sin”. The more (and LOUDER) he preaches against his Secret Sin, the more he figures he’ll keep it tamped down. (Like Rush Limbaugh vocally fanboying The War On Drugs while fighting a secret Oxycontin addiction. Or — more extreme and sinister — Oberstguppenfuehrer Heydrich planning and setting The Holocaust in motion to hide/destroy any evidence for the rumor he was really part Jew.)

Until one day it all blows sky-high.

Beakerj: Somehow, in those circles, a teenager kissing his girlfriend is worse, for them, than a Pastor raping a toddler.

Because the first is LUST and SIN among the filthy lowborn while the second is Privilege of Pastoral Rank, Touch Not Mine Anointed.

Law Prof: … invited to dinner at a pastor’s house … rather well-fed sort of pastor with a hairstyle about 30 years behind the times … a number of the college students from our campus group were invited … at the end, the pastor at the head of the table said “Alright, that’ll be one dollar each, pass it down the table, come on, now!” …

We call that sort of hairdo “preacher-hair”, it was slick to go with his character!

I’ve known several “pastors” of that sort … always interested more in bucks than souls. We were in a church once that did a tremendous outreach to the youth in our community for a special service. We attracted over 100 teenagers, most had never been to church. Before the service, they had a pizza dinner for them. They were a little unruly, not knowing how to act in church, you know. But they were there and positioned to hear the Gospel (or so we thought). Instead, the pretty-boy preacher with his slick hairdo proceeded to scold them for acting badly prior to the service after the church had “blown so much money” on them!

I know the Scripture says not to call anybody a jerk (that you would be in danger of hell-fire), but for the life of me I don’t know why so many jerks end up in the pulpit!

TS00: Building on your thoughts, I don’t think God created us to do church, but to live, work with our hands, create, explore, sing, dance, love, laugh, help our neighbor, hug our kids. The ekklesia was supposed to be more like a support group, where we meet with others with the same goals to share our struggles, encourage one another and hold one another accountable with permission.

The day the institutional church with officers, power, authority, creeds, sacraments, etc. was substituted for an organic body that would look uniquely like the people it was composed of was a very sad day. And we since it’s all we’ve ever known, it is difficult to imagine anything else. So we wander from church to church, and are old the problem is us.

Totally agree with this.

I remember in church those people who say “nature is my church” being derided and mocked. It didn’t occur to me that that was just a control tactic to keep us there even after we see the hypocrisy. Now I am one of those people and am so much more happy and at peace.

SiteSeer,

🙂

Anonymous Grandma
There’s something else that the pastor overlooked. If this “isolated incident” (which was actually an ongoing campaign of sexual abuse) really happened, then the perpetrator’s denial is a sin in the here and now. In other words, he’s a liar right now, not forty years ago. And not an innocuous little “white lie,” either. That alone should disqualify him from serving in ministry.

I’m so very, very tired of churches where truth is considered an obstacle to ministry.

EXACTLY!!!

Max,

Headless Unicorn Guy,

Sinatra had a somewhat different view…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFmNgiEgPoQ

Headless Unicorn Guy: To me, Witchcraft is using supernatural/magical powers (real or claimed) for harm, intimidation, and/or personal gain at the expense of others.

Some wiccans would disagree. They’re reclaiming the word. For what it’s worth, I don’t think they’re any closer to the original earth goddess worshippers than modern day christians are to the wandering preacher who started that faith (Paul or Jesus – take your pick).

Max,

Yep yep yep

jyjames: Gifts that apparently this church doesn’t need. Like, maybe, the gift of discernment, for example.

That spiritual gift in the pew scares the living daylights out of modern-day pulpiteers! IMO, the greatest need of American Christians is to pray for discernment … the spirits are out and about to disrupt the church.

Max: That spiritual gift in the pew scares the living daylights out of modern-day pulpiteers! IMO, the greatest need of American Christians is to pray for discernment …

Don’t forget WISDOM.

Discernment is the Intelligence-gathering Gift and Wisdom is the command control for all the others.

Max: The Bible talks about leaders who do this as having “familiar spirits” rather than the Holy Spirit. Manipulation, intimidation, and domination are not fruit of the Holy Spirit, but of another spirit.

I’m familiar with the Contemporary-Supernatural fiction of Manly Wade Wellman (based on Appalachian folk-magic lore) and similar Pennsylvania Dutch “pow-wow” lore.

In both, you find Witch-Men/Hexen using their Familiar Spirits (and their supernatural powers in general) to force their will on others and for Extortion of goods and money (by threatening to Hex them).

This distresses me greatly! I didn’t read all the comments. Did Jimmy offer his perspective? Imagine the perp’s story differing! I hate these kind of church responses-every stinking time! This brave woman deserves so much more. They aren’t even addressing her concerns. I guess boys will be boys but then they become pastors so its all good. Puke!

I have information for you. Some of your information about offenders is incorrect. Many do not continue offending, and indeed are horrified at what they did when younger. Here’s a part of my story.

http://www.wayneborean.com/blog/2019/02/25/sexual-abuse-and-me/

Wayne Borean: Many do not continue offending, and indeed are horrified at what they did when younger.

Wayne, I am so sorry that you suffered child sexual abuse.
Those who are horrified at what they did should apologize to their victims. Every time a victim thinks about their rapist, they relive the trauma. So, in the mind of the victim its repeat and repeat. How many victims ever get to hear an acknowledgment and apology from their teenage rapists about what a horrid thing they did? As long as they are still trying to hide it for self-preservation, I do not trust that they won’t strike again.

linda: So I am wary, but slow to act without a proper investigation.

I see this as flipped. You should be quick to act and remove the alleged abuser, if temporarily, and then do the investigation. MOST especially when children are involved.

Justaguy: And then I find that a man telling people that masturbation was sinful and would lead to immorality and seemed so holy – had molested several boys.

And now it seems pretty clear that this crazy focus on ‘purity’ was actually a *tell* that something was wrong with that person.

Patti: Those who are horrified at what they did should apologize to their victims. … As long as they are still trying to hide it for self-preservation, I do not trust that they won’t strike again.

Yes.

Justaguy: And then I find that a man telling people that masturbation was sinful and would lead to immorality and seemed so holy – had molested several boys.

Self-treating in secret.
“I have X problem, so Everybody Must!”

Plus Displacement Behavior — when things are spiraling completely out-of-control, Find Something You CAN Control and Micromanage It To Death 24/7, the more Zealous the better.

Max: Amen!The two must go hand-in-hand if the Church is going to detect and deal with bad actors in its midst.I was young and now am old – I’ve found that most of “discernment” is simple observation … keeping your ears and eyes open about what is going on around you.I have visited churches where the message and the messenger were definitely off-track and I left thinking “What in the world is wrong with those folks – don’t they see what this guy is doing?!”

It’s unlikely, but at least possible that one time you visited a church that I attended. Some of those people sitting in the pews with the smiles on their faces or thoughtful looks are gritting their teeth inside saying the same things as you, but convincing themselves they’ll stay top be a light in darkness, or stay to try and speak reason to the leadership and effect a change, or staying because their mom/dad/brother/sister/best friend is going there and they want to be close by to help them when the whole thing collapses.

Some of those people are thinking the same things as you, thinking “Doesn’t everyone else see just how heretical/disturbed/crazy/narcissistic/evil pastor is?” And maybe the next person over is thinking the same thing back at them. But of course, cultic churches, abusive places, don’t exactly encourage open communications, they promote a culture of fear where you don’t feel comfortable just walking up to a friend and saying “Uh, what the heck do you think Pastor Ted was thinking when he said that!” You might be surprised.

Headless Unicorn Guy: Don’t forget WISDOM.
Discernment is the Intelligence-gathering Gift and Wisdom is the command control for all the others.

Both are described by Paul in a group of what he calls manifestations of the spirit. AWWBA, the so-called “charismata” or (loose translation) “grace gifts” are actually in Romans 12 and include giving, encouraging and helping. I think any reasonable person would agree that we no longer need those, because we have the Scriptures.

The problem with both discernment and wisdom is the extent to which they could imply extra-biblical revelation. The real danger here is not so much that someone might claim to have a “gift of discernment” (other than by simply checking any individual against the exhaustive and comprehensive list of sins/sinners gifted to us in the scriptures). It’s that someone else may then look at the same list, and claim to have a gift of tongues or prophecy that is not a direct quote from scripture. Or worse, a gift of miracle or healing which cannot manifest as a direct quote from scripture. Once that happens, you have the nightmare scenario: a free-for-all where we all peddle nonsense, worship demons and practice witchcraft.

We don’t need wisdom or discernment, ISTM; we just need to go BackToScripture. In fact, we don’t need “Jesus” either – we need the scriptures.

Nick Bulbeck: We don’t need wisdom or discernment, ISTM; we just need to go BackToScripture. In fact, we don’t need “Jesus” either – we need the scriptures.

Recite Party Line, Comrades!

Nick Bulbeck: We don’t need the Party Line – we need scripture!

These days, Is There a Difference?

(I’ve been on the receiving end of Weaponized SCRIPTURE; have you?)

Headless Unicorn Guy,

I think we’ve all seen this, haven’t we?

There’s been some discussion here about witchcraft. I agree with Jack that Wiccans would dispute the claim that they’re trying to deceive and control people for personal advantage. The motives and aspirations of typical new-agers and pagan practitioners are no less noble than those of typical christians or para-church subgroups (including “churches”, which are also para-church organisations). Nor are they any more deceitful or self-deceived. Of all the recorded sayings of/about Jesus, the one I’m most reminded of is he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd.

I believe it was yourself, HUG, who drew a very interesting analogy here a while back. That is, between medieval sorcerers chanting spells at one another from a grimoire or spell-book, and fundagelicals firing scriptural proof-texts at one another from the bible. There’s something occultic about both, to my mind.

During the earthly ministry of Jesus, there was at least one point where the crowd’s enthusiasm began to boil over and they intended to make him king by force. IOW, to exploit him as a proxy for their own dreams. I don’t blame them for dreaming, and I don’t know whether I would have done any better had I lived their lives. Either way, Jesus was having none of it and withdrew himself, so that they couldn’t use him that way. The bible can’t do that, however; it can’t prevent itself from being used as a sock-puppet by those who claim it as a proxy for God Himself rather than as a God-given calibrating instrument.

Patti: Wayne, I am so sorry that you suffered child sexual abuse.
Those who are horrified at what they did should apologize to their victims. Every time a victim thinks about their rapist, they relive the trauma. So, in the mind of the victim its repeat and repeat. How many victims ever get to hear an acknowledgment and apology from their teenage rapists about what a horrid thing they did? As long as they are still trying to hide it for self-preservation, I do not trust that they won’t strike again.

And that sort of attitude is why I held off telling my story for so long.

Wayne

Carmelita,

I’m so sorry, Carmelita. 🙁