“We made too many wrong mistakes.” Yogi Berra
__________
I am currently working on 4 important stories surrounding abuse. I need to start posting this week. These folks have been so patient. Two involve women coming forward about abuse by youth leaders in the past. Another involves a serious situation that took place on the mission field and has the best documentation I’ve ever seen. The last one involves the outing of a potential pedophile in a well known church which we’ve written about in the past.
Of course the SBC thing is getting heated. Many folks are furious about the response from the SBC which I wrote about yesterday. The Houston Chronicle is getting calls and further revelations are forthcoming. Prediction: Things are going to get really ugly. I will do my best to keep you up to date. I may post short articles about developments. I’m hoping to get some sleep one of these nights.
__________
R.C. Sproul is the father of R.C. Sproul Jr. (I bet you would’ve guessed that.)
Let’s do a quick history lesson. R.C. Sproul Jr is not a chip off the old block as far as I can tell. Yes, he is the son and namesake for his father, R. C. Sproul, a well known Reformed theologian, who passed away 2017. Here is a quick bio on dad from Wikipedia so you get the idea.
…an American theologian, author, and ordained pastor in the Presbyterian Church in America. He was the founder and chairman of Ligonier Ministries (named for the Ligonier Valley just outside Pittsburgh, where the ministry started as a study center for college and seminary students) and could be heard daily on the Renewing Your Mind radio broadcast in the United States and internationally. Under Sproul’s direction, Ligonier Ministries produced the Ligonier Statement on Biblical inerrancy, which would eventually grow into the 1978 Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, of which Sproul, alongside Norman Geisler, was one of the chief architects.[3][4] Sproul has been described as “the greatest and most influential proponent of the recovery of Reformed theology in the last century.”[
R.C. Sproul Jr has a rather checkered pass when it come to Christian ministry.
Forgive my rather quick review of his checkered past but it will help you understand what is to follow. Junior worked off and on for years in his father’s ministry. However, in between times, crazy things occurred.
The wife spanking controversy:
Julie Anne Smith outlined this in The Christian Patriarchy Movement’s Dark Secret of Wife Spanking
As Doug Phillips and his Vision Forum ministry is sinking, stories of abuse among Christian Patriarchy are surfacing: domestic violence, wife spanking, etc, among other well-known circles such as RC Sproul Jr., etc.
She included comments from readers who claimed he allegedly spanked his wife.
R.C Sproul Jr (hereafter referred to as RCSJ) was defrocked for spiritual abuse, identity theft, and other financial irregularities.
According to the Pearcey Report:
R.C. Sproul, Jr., has been defrocked as a minister in the Westminster Presbytery of the Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly.
Sproul, son of the well-known theologian, author, and highly respected apologist R.C. Sproul, had been associate pastor of St. Peter Presbyterian Church in Abingdon, Va. He is also founder of the Highlands Study Center, located in nearby Bristol, Va.
…Among the reasons for the disciplinary action are charges of spiritual abuse of members and attendees of St. Peter Presbyterian Church, as well as financial irregularities that include the “identity theft” of another church’s Federal Tax I.D. number.
According to the Declaratory Judgment, the deposed men are subject to an ecclesiastical trial, “pending additional charges, both public and personal, that are currently being investigated.” The document charges the men with a “consistent pattern of actions” that are “duplicitous in nature” and that the men “demonstrate that they willingly and knowingly act in an arbitrary fashion in violation of their vows of ordination.”
Here is a link to the whole sordid PDF from WESTMINSTER PRESBYTERY REFORMED PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH GENERAL ASSEMBLY.
RCSJ then transferred to the CREC which is the denomination started by the infamous Doug Wilson who thought if was just nifty to preside over the marriage of a pedophile to a naive young woman. So this comes as no surprise.
The SPPC Session issued a letter of apology and asked to be released from general membership in the RPCGA, and the denomination granted their request. SPPC requested pastoral oversight from the CREC, which accepted the congregation as a full member in October 2007.[13] The Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches (CREC) examined the case and accepted Sproul as an ordained minister in good standing in 2006. In 2010 Sproul transferred his ordination to the denomination Covenant Presbyterian Church (CPC).
Allegedly the PCA didn’t want RCSJ.
Sproul was first ordained in the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARP). After a failed attempt to transfer into the Presbyterian Church in America,[1] he was ordained in the Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly(RPCGA) in 2000, but in January 2006, Sproul and the Session of SPPC were deposed from office by the denomination under charges including including “abuse of authority in an inexcusable manner” against several families, illegal use of the ARP’s tax identification number, planting a church without authority, and practicing paedocommunion.[2] The SPPC Session issued a letter of apology and asked to be released from general membership in the RPCGA,[3] and the denomination granted their request.[4] Sproul and SPPC then requested pastoral oversight from the Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches and were accepted into that denomination.[5]
Then there was the Ashley Madison matter.
Ligonier Suspends R. C. Sproul Jr. over Ashley Madison Visit
And the really bad drunk driving incident with his kids in the car.
RC Sproul Jr Is Now a Convicted Felon Alcoholic and Is One Step Away From a Tragedy
So given all of this, one would think that RCSJ would try to fade into the blessed arms of obscurity….Instead…
He got a job running the SB Nation (Pittsburgh Pirates) website to which I say “You have heard of Google, haven’t you?”
This goes under the classification of: “Didn’t you know this would happen?” Laura Wagner writing for Deadspin wrote SB Nation Hired A Disgraced Pastor To Lead A Team Site And, Hoo Boy, Readers Have Questions [Update]
This week, SB Nation hired Christian Twitter personality R.C. Sproul Jr. to take over its Pittsburgh Pirates team site, Bucs Dugout. Sproul Jr. was brought in to fix a problem left over from the site’s previous leadership,
Basically, his job was to clean up the free-for-all which characterized this website. Here is how he introduced himself, leaving out the more interesting details of his life.
Some of you have been waiting more intently for the announcement of the new site manager than for opening day. I’m the guy, and I thought it prudent to introduce myself. I have made my living as a writer and editor for more than 25 years. I’ve written for national magazines, various websites and have published more than a dozen books. I have been a fan of the Pittsburgh Pirates my whole life.
One of the first commenters had this to say:
After reading a bit about your background elsewhere, including a conviction for drunk driving, getting caught up in the Ashley Madison scandal, being “defrocked” in your ministry, allegations of the misuse of tax numbers, some way out talk about wife spanking etc., I’d like to suggest that you give BD a detailed explanation of the above and anything else you think we should know about you.
We all know that there’s a lot of B.S. on the Internet, and I’d hate to think that the numerous blog posts and articles out there claiming to detail your transgressions are not telling the truth and unfairly besmirching your character.
I’m thinking that Vox Media hired you in some part to be a “moral compass” for the degenerates here who like to curse like sailors and, God forbid, post a pic or two of a chick in a bikini.
To which he answered (obviously irritated that someone looked him up)
You can read what you like about me on the internet, and you can believe what you wish. There are things that are true, and things that are false, things I’m ashamed of, and things I’m not happy about being falsely accused of. The important thing is that this is not a website about me, but about the Pirates. I’d encourage everyone to take a breath, think about baseball and relax. My commitment to following the rules means no one here needs to worry about my politics. No one here needs to worry about my views on hot button social issues. No one here needs to worry about anything. My desire is the same as yours, that this place would be a welcoming place where we can talk about the Bucs. I will not be looking at any of you in light of behavior here in the past. I most certainly won’t be googling any of you. I will, and I will encourage all of us to, stick to baseball.
He probably misses the good old days when he could spank adults and church discipline anyone who questioned him. The comments continued and he answered one with:
Keeping things PG-13 is not meant to be a scientific term, but a general one. And we’re going to, if we must err, err on the side of the PG rather than the 13. Hope that is sufficiently clear. If you all must continue to argue the issue, feel free, But I won’t participate. Let’s talk about baseball.
To which, a commenter said:
I have Scooby Doo playing all day on a TV that is aimed at the street. Did you ever see how Daphne is drawn? How about Weird Science? Did you see the ladies in that that PG-13 film? Or how about Howard the Duck? Rated PG. Wait! There’s more! How about EVERY SINGLE DISNEY BEACH FILM! A lady, wearing a bikini and boots, holding a Pirate Flag is no more then I would see on the damn TV or walking around the beach in the summer time and wouldn’t even merit a glance by the Motion Picture Association of America. How about Spaceballs!
Obviously things were going downhill fast.
He got canned after two days on the job.
On Bucs Dugout, a brief post published today at 12:44 p.m. ET by “SB Nation Staff” said:
We have decided to terminate our contract with R.C. Sproul Jr. effective immediately and he will no longer contribute to Bucs Dugout. SB Nation always endeavors to create a welcoming and inclusive community for its readers.
Sproul Jr.’s tenure as site manager lasted two day
Which leaves me with one question….
Sorry. Post had to be replaced to fix the missing title.
drstevej was first
Ken P. was second with a short not about Yogi
Headless Unicorn Guy was third with a quick comment about RC that he can post again.
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Yeah I was and am 1
When I was teaching I would tell kids in my history classes, ” You can’t make this up, I dare you to try. “
“The difference between Reality and Fiction is Fiction has to make sense.”
— attr to Mark Twain
R.C.Sproul Jr, AKA “PRECIOUS” to his family?
Uh, aren’t you misquoting yourself?
Didn’t you say “I yam what I yam”?
I don’t think there’s a better punishment for some folks than to be trolled on Deadspin. It’s snarktacular. Much is highly offensive, but here are two comments that were safe to copy:
Let the Pittsburgh fan who is without a DUI cast the first Keystone
And the response:
The verse is even better if you don’t lop off the beginning: Verily, I say unto yinz, …
These guys had free rein when they were in tiny cloistered religious communities. Theological inbreeding and family connections worked just great to get ahead and spackle over their personal peccadillos. But the real world doesn’t work like that. Here there are consequences to behavior. When I first read this story a couple days ago I laughed out loud. Get a real job Jr.
Drive a bus.
Wait on tables.
Sell insurance.
Just stay out of sight, because you have a track record.
How true. I wonder if bullying and theft would have been enough to get him defrocked from the ARP if he hadn’t been practicing paedocommunion. To be fair, maybe it would. But it wasn’t enough to get him defrocked from his private church, nor from the CREC. Nor was it enough to get Driskle defrocked…
Kind of off topic…but the word”defrocked” has always left me puzzled. If one was defrocked, how did they get frocked in the first place? I guess I don’t really know the meaning of the word and it’s not one I hear except I’m reference to minister’s or priests getting fired.
In reference…stupid auto korrecht
I resigned as a staff members at a church where the pastor was a writer for SB Nation (the Burgundy Wave – MLB Soccer). He watched 8-10 games a week, was an assistant editor, and had several hundred posts in 2014-2016. All on the church’s dime. He was also spiritually abusive.
Doubtful,
I dunno, but he definitely got deflocked!
I think the old fashioned minister’s garb was referred to as a frock, so to be defrocked would be to go back to secular clothing. Question is, was that a derogatory term in the beginning? Because frocks usually refer to dresses. ?
This story made me laugh out loud and I could really use the laugh, so, I guess, thank you, R C Sproul Jr? Now, let’s all relax and think about baseball! Or, better yet, since this is the Wartburg Watch, cricket. I heard a quote recently that the English invented cricket in order to make every other endeavor of mankind not seem boring. Maybe Nick could elaborate on or rebut this point? 😀
“Who suggested this guy? There must be a back story.”
Well, it appears that the Sprouls have been long-time fans of the Pirates. According to Jr., Sr. could have been on the Pirates’ minor league team when he graduated college! Instead, he decided to pursue a theological education. Darn!!
https://www.bucsdugout.com/2019/2/20/18232067/permission-to-board
The phrase “frock coat” is still used for certain men’s knee-length coats, although not often in the US. Prince Harry was married in one. It was an old West style too. If you Google the phrase, you’ll see familiar styles.
9Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman all gussied up in frocks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7h4np9_UMk
What’s up with these guys playing dress-up?
Elders from James White’s ‘Apologia Church’ also donned gowns, for their appearance in the public comment portion at Phoenix City Council meeting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rclgxTUZp14
Pastor/Elder Luke Pierson in some sort of ecclesiastical get-up for his city hall performance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v4il5BiDX8
Pastor/Elder Luke Pierson preaching from the Apologia Church pulpit in a hawaiian shirt:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OodD1yaJvk
First impression:
JOHN CALVIN COSPLAY!
Those robes and hats are legal/scholarly/academic”uniform” at the time of the Reformation Wars; both Martin Luther and John Calvin portraits show them. I think such “academic robes” stayed on as Lutheran/Calvinist priestly vestments for some time as a sign of Scholarship and Authority.
First impression:
Not just announcing “We’re CLERGY”, but to show “GOD SAITH!”?
(I wonder what “Apologia Church” thinks of Roman Catholic cassocks & vestments?)
Again, “I’m Clergy! GOD SPEAKS THROUGH ME!”?
SiteSeer,
The term refers to the removal of vestments of priests (wide term) after being found guilty of sin. RCs use the word laicisation, meaning permanent removal. The Anglicans generally adhere to “once ordained, always ordained” although they can find ways round it. The Methodist and Orthodox churches are different again. In the wider sense it can refer to the removal of judges from the bench.
If the New Calvinist mists are dressing up, then they are showing, not their status or erudition, but their abandonment of good old “plain” Calvinism. You have been warned! 🙂
mists? Lol.
Cricket is indeed an apposite national sport of Wartburg. It wasn’t the English who invented it, mind you; cricket was one of My better inspirations, actually. Playing cricket teaches My people to give thanks in all things. And to appreciate the rain that I send on the just and the unjust.
Best regards,
God
Very nauseating. Back when I was questioning complementarian SM, I spoke to a guy from R.C. Sproul Sr.’s ministry about my uneasiness with the female subordination. This guy hastened to assure me that Sproul, Sr. “listened to his wife’s opinion a lot” and male headship wasn’t abusive. Now that I hear Junior was into wife spanking and crap like that, I wonder how much of that was taught to him by Senior. Glad I didn’t buy it then.
Of course I would exempt “the Genevan Robe”.
I think RCC also adheres to “once ordained, always ordained”, i.e. there are things which once done cannot be completely undone.
Laitization does NOT remove the ordination, but forbids the laitized priest to use that ordination in any way, i.e. forbids any dressing, acting, or functioning as a priest.
i.e. Putting on Priestly Robes as Befits One of Divinely-Appointed Rank.
Remember that clerical cosplayer who wouldn’t admit to it, Douggie “Little Lord Fauntleroy” Phillips ESQUIRE?
Clerical garb adds the appearance of authority.
When in doubt, try the dictionary: Frock –
2.
a long gown with flowing sleeves worn by monks, priests, or clergy.
To be defrocked is literally to have your clothes repossessed by those higher up the totem pole.
Beyond that hiring a bomb throwing Calvinist to manage a something that is out of control is quite a stupid thing to do. Hence the two day stand and things are worse than they were before.
Well, I’m just a sittin’ here in my blue Wildcats sweatshirt givin’ thanks that the Sprouls are not Kentucky Wildcat basketball fans!
First off….thanks for all who did the heavy lifting to educate me on frocks.
So being defrocked means no more wuth century fashions for you…am I getting it?
16th
It’s purely personal taste. Myself, I never pay for the extra flocking. By the time you put all the ornaments on, it’s just too much. And I’m cheap as well.
drstevej,
And ever more shall be?
K.D.,
I couldn’t believe it.
Loren Haas,
Spot on.
Yeah-no surprise. I went to a church in which one of the pastors had so much time off, he gave golf lessons at a club during the day.
Doubtful,
I think it came out of the era when priests and pastors were given collars and given special ministerial garments to wear. My Lutheran pastor does not dress in his special clothing on Saturday night services. However, one night he did a baptism and I noted that he had on his collar which I hadn’t seen in the evenings much. He said he wears it when he performs a special thing on Sat eves like baptism.
When defrocking occurs, it means they can’t wear the clothing itms associated with ordination. However, I’m enjoying the play on the frock and flock.
Nick Bulbeck-are you reading this?
Max,
You are chockfull of information. I’m duly impressed.
“Former Highpoint Church pastor Chris Conlee allegedly fired for physical assault of female staff member”
“..church leaders paid Conlee and another disgraced, sexually abusive pastor, Andy Savage, about $700,000 in severance pay…”
See post for evidence:
https://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2019/02/former-highpoint-church-pastor-chris.html
Similar academic garb is still worn at British universities during exams and ceremonies, and probably in other countries too. Does one or the other of these two guys have a UK degree? If so, they might have had to purchase the items.
Those are not frocks. They are … wait for it … gowns.
dee,
I go back far enough (when I was a little kid in the Southeast corner of Wisconsin) to remember when Lutheran pastors still wore the Cassock on high holy days.
On those days you couldn’t tell Pastor Sorensen from Father Doyle the Jesuit.
Now we know why Conlee stuck with Savage and vice versa to the bitter end. Expecting a “pastor” to keep his pants on shouldn’t be too much to ask. Expecting an elder board to do the right thing with abusive pastors shouldn’t be too much to ask either … but. “Many a man proclaims his own steadfast love, but a faithful man who can find?” (Proverbs 20:6)
Such church leaders should never be granted a golden parachute when they exit. Those funds should have been spent on things like caring for orphans and widows in their distress (= pure religion, James 1:27). There is nothing “pure” about using hard-earned tithes of church folks to fill the wallets of fallen preachers!!
Thank you, Dee, for this information. You are amazing.
Re Sproul Jr.: Couldn’t happen to a better scoundrel. Been following news about this guy for a few years because dear friends were connected to his first denomination – and upset…and left it for the Methodists.
As for these guys wearing garb due to a UK degree…ah, no. Not that astute.
A couple of the worst TWW scoundrels have UK degrees, but I can’t keep them all straight. I’ll just go ahead and accuse these two of cultural appropriation. 😉
Well, it gets me wondering could it be one reason all these coverups continue on. Would guys be falling like dominoes?
😀
The number 3 at the Vatican, Cardinal George Pell, was taken into custody after sentencing on five counts of child abuse. The jury had found him guilty in December but the trial and verdict were under publication ban until this week.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/feb/27/cardinal-pell-will-go-straight-to-jail-as-bail-application-is-withdrawn
I’m not going to reproduce the article here because the words of Pell’s lawyer in the first paragraph are disgusting. I know lawyers are supposed to provide a vigorous defense for their clients, but minimizing a sexual assault? *shudder*
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
WT…? I can’t believe what I just read.
Well, the coverup and protection of church leaders in sex abuse cases in the RCC are becoming legendary. Should we expect anything different in Protestant ranks?
They could always try to learn from others’ notorious calamities. Or is that too high a bar?
It is if a “pastor” is driven by the flesh, rather than the Spirit. We’ve got a lot of flesh-babies in the pulpit in the American church, rather than men of God.
When my husband was a pastor, he used to say that preaching from the high pulpit in our church did not put him ‘six feet above criticism’. Sproule et al have it deeply entrenched in their psyche that they are above reproach, above criticism, God’s own mouthpiece, so he deflected the first commenter’s questions away from himself.That’s all he could think to do. Someone commented that these arrogant leaders forget that it’s no longer the 1980s, when, to find out information on a subject, you needed a library ticket and the bus fare into town. Now we have the whole world in our pockets, and they really can’t adjust to that terrible news!
Are you casting nasturtiums on myself & Mr Bulbeck? 😉
Christianese-to-English translation:
It is if the “pastor”s Egotism gets in the way. When “I’m God’s Anointed! God’s Speshul Pet!” crowds out his imperfect humanity. When his universe shrinks to only include himself. When Megachurch gets too small to house his Ego and his Destiny.
These days we call it “NPD”. Two-three generations ago they called it “Egomania” — becoming a Maniac consumed by your own Importance and Selfishness.
“Most Cults are started so the Cult Leader can (1) get Rich, (2) get Laid, or (3) Both.”
— my old Dungeonmaster, in a post-game “recreational thinking session” in the dorm parking lot
But using them in such situations — to impress the proles with My Knowledge and Importance — doesn’t pass the smell test. To much like rubbing My Honorary/Fake Doctorate in your faces.
Again, Like an Honorary Doctorate so many of these MenaGAWD flaunt?
“Reverend Larry awards Reverend Moe an Honorary Doctorate,
Reverend Moe awards Reverend Curly an Honorary Doctorate,
Reverend Curly awards Reverend Larry an Honorary Doctorate —
NYUK! NYUK! NYUK!”
Or the position and perks that came with it.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Can someone please take his lawyer into custody as well ?!?! 🙁 🙁 🙁
A nosegay would land at my place, heh-heh… I spent time among the unreached people groups of the Thames Valley. But have you noticed that some of the main US subjects of TWW posts have UK degrees? We’ve speculated about earned degrees, mere access to libraries, temporary researcher/lecturer positions, etc. It has bothered me that people with bad ideas travel thousands of miles to gain an academic pedigree, and come home with the same bad ideas intact.
I’m far less squicked out by the Three Stooges at Mildew College…
https://youtu.be/usQem53fDH8
Haven’t we seen similar from most all the pedo-pastors exposed on this blog?
“For ye cross land and sea to make one convert, only to make him twice the child of Hell as yourselves!”
— some Rabbi from Nazareth
It’s all right; I got this one.
Best regards,
God
I’m sure You realize that lacrosse is called the Creator’s Game. How would You compare it to cricket?
I really think that’s what we are seeing. None of this stuff is new, but they used to be able to get away with it by shuffling people around. Who would ever know? What an amazing God to use something that, frankly, I think was developed mostly to gather info on people, to turn the table on all of these wicked predators. Their time has come.
Scripture calls it ‘wickedness’. Makes you wonder how many of these rogues ever had a genuine relationship with the living God. I have my guesses.
God,
Sometimes the posts are so sad, discouraging or disturbing then along comes the latest cricket news and it always brings a smile to my face.
So true, Max.
BTW, as long as this subject has been mentioned, just out of curiosity, does anyone know of any charities specifically for widows?
Along the same lines, I would love to see charities for the more common widows and orphans of our day, which is those who seek to escape an abusive or oppressive marriage, but frequently do not have the support and resources to do so. Especially if they have been weaned on the non-education, non-work theology of complementarianism. My dream is to set up such a support network, but don’t know that I have the skills or wherewithal to do so.
Whoops! I meant complementarianism not SM-stupid iPhone. 🙂
Well, you know a tree by its fruit!
Glad to see God has confirmed in our days what He said in His word long ago:
At least, I think that’s what He meant.
Nick Bulbeck,
Bless him…
Best regards,
God
Well, that ministry ought to be part of every church across America … to minister to orphans and widows in their “distress.” Unfortunately, church leader are either not equipped in that way, or too darn abusive themselves in their ungodly subordination of women. As far as I’m concerned, a child who is abused by his father is an “orphan” … a wife who is abused by her husband is a “widow.”
Feeling a bit rough tonight. 🙁
In fact, my temperature is so high that if I drank heavy water, I’d probably be a source of neutrons.
IHTIH
Nick Bulbeck,
Hope you feel better soon!
Max,
TS00: I would love to see charities for the more common widows and orphans of our day, which are those who seek to escape an abusive or oppressive marriage, but frequently do not have the support and resources to do so
Max: “Well, that ministry ought to be part of every church across America … to minister to orphans and widows in their “distress.” Unfortunately, church leader are either not equipped in that way, or too darn abusive themselves in their ungodly subordination of women.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++
well, you see, ‘domestic abuse’ isn’t in the concordance.
so church leaders don’t acknowledge it. they can’t see further than the word biblical.
Exactly. And many cannot escape without support and assistance.
You mean like the whole ‘biblical counseling’ movement, which judges and condemns the victims for not properly submitting to their ‘authorities’ or some other trivial ‘sin’, instead of helping them to deal with a difficult, dangerous and immoral situation? Since when did some man’s definition of what’s ‘biblical’ overrule good common sense as to what is ‘right’? Don’t get me started . . .
TS00,
i’m sure that applies. i was thinking more along the lines of simple-minded morons who no longer know how to think for themselves.
Lily Rose,
Knowing what I know of Vesta Sproul, I couldn’t imagine RC Sr. not listening to her — she is a very strong woman who would certainly have her way, one way or another. What drives me batty about complementarianism is how much it fosters passive-aggressive behavior in women who manipulate their husbands. The behavior, because it seems on the surface to be “submissive” is willingly overlooked. How much healthier is mutual submission as taught by Paul and lived out in egalitarian marriages!
Jr. certainly had his own set of issues and still does, unless something has changed. I’m sorry for his children, if they are suffering from his lack of work (but I’m guessing he got a pretty chunk from Dad’s estate). I’m not sorry Jr.’s past is haunting him – it should, until the time comes when he gains some self awareness and admits to himself and others the toxic brand of Christianity (if you could even call it that) he’s practiced.
Geminale,
Well, I will take your word for it about Vesta Sproul, but I was questioning something I read by Sproul Senior something about a couple shouldn’t live with wife’s parents because she would be in a position where she can’t obey two masters-her husband and father. So I wasn’t big on Sproul Senior’s message no matter how much he listens to Vesta. Glad to know he wasn’t into Junior’s stuff at least as far as we know. But then mutual submission is the way to go.
SiteSeer,
Thanks, SiteSeer!
Lily Rose,
Yes, he was still classic comp /patriarchal, so what he said about the woman having two masters doesn’t surprise me.. At his church women are not allowed to read scripture out loud either.
My daughter – an accomplished Christian singer/musician – helped start an SBC church plant … until she discovered that the young “lead” pastor and his hand-picked band of young “elders” had New Calvinism in mind, not Gospel-preaching. She experienced the ungodly control of women firsthand. It was OK for her to read a passage of Scripture before a song … but she was required to read from the ESV only and could offer no comments about the Scripture as it may have applied to her life or the song she was about to sing. Shortly after that, she showed the young punks her behind and her elbows as she headed to the exit.
Friend,
Lol. Thanks for sharing that. As a native (northeastern) Pennsylvanian who has met western Pennsylvanians who red-up rooms, I appreciate it. It’s amusing, hey’na?
Many women are financially decimated, lose their homes, lose everything, when they are widowed. I have not done an exhaustive search but there doesn’t seem to be much support for them in the Christian community. I just think it’s interesting, being as the Bible speaks of it as an obvious ministry of the church, that there doesn’t seem to be much out there. Yet there are pastors and leaders of parachurch “ministries” living in castles.
“Pure and unblemished religion [as it is expressed in outward acts] in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit and look after the fatherless and the widows in their distress, and to keep oneself uncontaminated by the [secular] world” (James 1:27).
Churches which turn a deaf ear to the cries of widows and orphans are not practicing “pure religion.” When this is not an active ministry of the church … when “pastors” make 6-figure salaries and live in mansions with no line-item in the church budget for the distressed within their reach … when the “worship” experience swaying to the beat of drums supersedes extending a hand to widows and orphans … they have become “contaminated” by the world, impure and blemished in God’s eyes.
Am I the only one who grows more and more convicted of this pesonally? I was raised with the prosperity-like gospel, the American Dream, Capitalism as savior of the world too, and it trained us to think only of their own safety and security. Help the needy and suffering? ‘Just put your dollars in the plate and leave it to us’. Now that my family is raised, and church is no longer my ministry, I’m trying to figure out where and how to give what little I have to offer. And trying to not be overcome by fear at so many looming threats to human rights.
“If you can’t feed a hundred people, then feed just one.” – Mother Teresa
During the Satanic Panic of the Eighties, wasn’t a favorite anti-Rock music sermon talking-point “Satanic Drumbeat Rhythms” taken from African witch doctors?
It teaches women to be Manipulators with an Angel of Sweet Light mask.
A type of manipulation commonly called P-whipping.
Which does a number on male third parties’ ability to trust women.
I wonder how many men resolved to make sure to keep their boots on her face in self-defense?