Why 9 Marks’ Jonathan Leeman Should Have Leveled With Julie Roys About His Support of CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries/Churches

magical moon
“Child abuse is a heinous and personally damaging crime; it is therefore incumbent on the Church to treat such matters with the utmost seriousness.” John Sentamu

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Julie Roys’ excellent program The Church in Crisis

I want to highly recommend Julie Roy’s most recent broadcast of “The Church in Crisis” which she describes as:

Over the past year and a half, scandals and controversy have plagued the church and Christian organizations. From Willow Creek in Chicago and Highpoint Church in Memphis—to Sovereign Grace Churches and, most recently, Harvest Bible Chapel. The accusations of sexual harassment, financial impropriety, bullying, and intimidation have left Christians reeling. In a special radio broadcast, “The Church in Crisis,” I explore not only what’s happened in the church, but why it happened, and what redemptive solutions are available.

Roys has been a tireless investigator of the abuse at Harvest Bible Chapel and was even named in the HBC lawsuit which was dropped when MacDonald discovered he would hav e to turn over documents that might reveal the truth of what was actually going on at HBC.

She had two guests who were knowledgeable and experienced in abuse in the church.

Joining me are people with first-hand knowledge of these scandals: Vonda Dyer, a former vocal team leader at Willow Creek and alleged victim of sexual harassment, Scott Phelps, one of several former elders at Harvest excommunicated for raising issues about Harvest Pastor James MacDonald.

Roys was not aware of 9 Marks and Leeman’s close relationship with CJ Mahaney.

Roys also had a third guest which caused me to choke on my coffee.

Adding a third perspective will beJonathan Leeman of 9Marks, a ministry that equips leaders to build healthy churches.

Wait, she mentioned the controversy surrounding Sovereign Grace Churches in her introduction so why was Leeman sitting there? I contacted Roys and believe that she had no prior knowledge of the close relationship between 9 Marks, Leeman, Mark Dever and CJ Mahaney.

Having been writing about Mahaney and SGM for almost 10 years now, I often make assumptions that everyone knows what I know. Mahaney has sunk rather low in the eyes of most in the church since the publication of The Sex-Abuse Scandal That Devastated a Suburban Megachurch: Inside the rise and fall of Sovereign Grace Ministries. However, CJ Mahaney is alive and well and hiding out in Louisville under the protection of the SBC, Al Mohler, Mark Dever and the usual crowd.

Leeman sat there silently and allowed her to name Sovereign Grace as an abusive ministry.

The question is “Why?” Was he not aware that she would mention this 9 Mark’s beloved ministry and friend? Did he ‘fess up after the broadcast? Or is this just part of the latest *jump on the bandwagon and pretend we really, really care about abuse* in the churches?

There is a reason that 9 Marks has earned the titles of 9 Marx and the Hotel California. So, to set the record straight, here are some reasons why I think Jonathan Leeman should have bowed out of the broadca

Celebrity pastors are a problem.

Roys pointed out the problem with celebrity pastors in the program. Little did she know that she had a representative of a celebrity subset on the program. Leeman is part of the 9 Marks/T4G/TGC cooperate amigos. Mark Dever is definitely one of the celebrity pastors of this crowd. See how many conferences, books, and joint ventures occur within this context.

If you don’t think this is so, Leeman wrote a post responding to this called Don’t Be a 9Marxist! In Roys’ broadcast, Leeman discussed how a church screwed up but they did so *piously.* Although he didn’t name them, he was talking about The Village Church who unjustifiably abused Karen Hinckley. I know because he brings up this example in many other venues. He claims that they worked it out well. But when someone like Matt Chandler screws up it means that there is something deeply wrong with the paradigm. Also, there is much, much more to this story and those involved know it.

Dever is a big name and churches are willy nilly applying 9 Marks books on discipline. Unfortunately, many people are getting hurt because these new *cool* books have many flaws and we have written about them.

A chief example of 9 Marks style discipline which involves CJ Mahaney

Todd Wilhelm attended UCC-Dubai. The pastor, John Folmar, is a close friend of Mark Dever. Wilhelm was being vetted for a church leadership position. However, he found out that the church was selling CJ Mahaney books in their bookstore. Can you imagine this? Selling those books to an international audience? Wilhelm, a former member of a Sovereign Grace church in the US, not only refused to support the selling of these books, he decided to leave the church because they were so insistent on pushing Mahaney.

Guess what? Wilhelm was disciplined post facto by being placed on the *care list,* a disgusting name for what it is-a punishment for not playing their game. Why was he punished? He didn’t immediately join a 9 Marks’ approved church. Oh, the sin of it all!

Now, one of the named pastors was asked by Dee why they did this. They gave me the 9 Marx response.”You don’t have the whole story and we can’t tell you because of confidentiality.”  Dee contacted Wilhelm who said he would sign a legal release form so that they could discuss the supposed *whole story.* The response was furious. “Who’s going to adjudicate it.” I said this has nothing to with adjudication but instead an attempt to get to the truth. Guess what? Communications ceased. Hey 9 Marx….the offer is still open…

Now, lets prove the close and supportive relationship between Leeman/Dever and CJ Mahaney

Dever plays pastor to CJ Mahaney

In 2011, Mahaney was asked to temporarily step down while he was being investigated by his own church. Mahaney, the king of the humble brag, did something that was not allowed under his own church’s rules nor under the rules of 9 Marks. He scooted out of his own church during that this time and started attending Capitol Hill Baptist Church under Mark Dever. Leeman was also there during this time.

This was documented by SGM Survivors in C.J. Mahaney Preaches At Capitol Hill Baptist Church During “Season Of Reflection,” Refers To Mark Dever As “His Pastor”.

September 25, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries

On Sunday, September 25, C.J. Mahaney was a guest preacher at Capitol Hill Baptist Church.  You can listen to his sermon (a variation on what he presented while doing the “Jude Tour” at different Sovereign Grace Ministries churches) here.

A couple of minutes into his message, C.J. makes mention of a Tabletalk article by an author named Scot Dever – who, C.J. tells the Capitol Hill congregation, is “no relation to our pastor.”

I don’t know about you, but I’m confused.  I thought that C.J. Mahaney, as president of Sovereign Grace Ministries (from which he is still receiving his entire salary even in the middle of his “season of reflection”) is a member of Covenant Life Church.  I thought Joshua Harris was C.J.’s pastor.

How is it possible that Mark Dever is now C.J.’s pastor?

2017-Mahaney meest with CHBC interns

Are you thinking that was just a one time occurrence? How about after Mahaney ran from the DC area and landed in Louisville. Surely not after all the stuff came out in the Washingtonian? Surely not after all the lawsuits? Todd is keeping track.

Mahaney donated money to CHBC

It is known that CJ Mahaney has donated money to theministry at CHBC.  You can hear CJ discussing this on an recording in the post. In this post you will see that Dever made sure that CJ’s sons in laws were also well taken care of by making them interns at CHBC.

Dever allegedly told people that the facts weren’t right about Mahaney

Unlike us, Dever does not point to links with proof of the matter.

Wilhelm writes:

2013 -Dever praises Mahaney for taking off to Louisville

In 2013, Mark Dever praised CJ Mahaney. In case you don’t remember, this is right after CJ Mahaney stomped his feet and took off for Louisville, taking his ball-Sovereign Grace Ministries- with him. This is after all the revelations during the lawsuit. Immediately, his BFF, Mark Dever, rose to his defense.

Dever appears to like the codswallop from Mahaney (How embarrassing)!

Of course, Dever must have been much charmed by Mahaney calling him O Captain, My Captain.

Mark is a true friend, and he is a CLOSE friend. He is not only a true and close friend, he quickly became a mentor, and that has continued to this day as well. I have learned much from your senior pastor and often will refer to him as “O Captain, My Captain”. It’s an expression of my heartfelt gratefulness to him and an acknowledgment of my deference to his leadership.

I have much, much more but need to move on.

Maybe Jonathan Leeman was quietly disagreeing behind Mark’s back?…Yeah right!

The Underestimated Gospel debacle

In 2014, Jonatahn Leeman published his book, The Underestimated Gospel. Look carefully who contributed.  Yep-CJ Mahaney. By the way, the contributors’ list is filled with names of Mahaney supporters.

CJ Mahaney is a Leeman go-to for advice on seminary and pastoral training.

Here is a link to Episode 28: On Seminary & Pastoral Training (with C. J. Mahaney) 11/27/17

Almost everyone agrees pastors need to be trained, both practically and theologically. But does this mean they must receive formal theological training from a seminary? In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan interviews both Mark and C. J. Mahaney about how pastors should be trained, and what seminaries have to do with it.

I wonder if Leeman knows that Mahaney only graduated from high school….I bet he does since Mahaney often brags about it.

Final thoughts

I’m frankly surprised by Jonathan Leeman’s silence in this matter. It is obvious that he continues, along with his *captain* Mark Dever, to defend the indefensible. As such, he needs to bow out of any discussion on abuse. If the plethora of evidence regarding the mess at SGM under the supposed leadership of CJ Mahaney is not enough for Leeman, then just about any victim coming forward with a story will not be enough for Leeman/Deve/9Marks.

Leeman/Dever/9Marx and anyone associated with Sovereign Grace have disqualified themselves from taking part in the ongoing conversations on how to prevent abuse in the church.

It pains me to say this but it must be said. I believe that victims are not safe in any 9 Marks affiliated church or any Sovereign Grace affiliated church. They have provided me with enough information to suggest that they defend their own. Maybe if a victim sucked up and called them all *O Captain, My Captain* (barf) and threw a few Benjamins at them, their case might be considered…who knows?

In the Roys broadcast, Leeman says for an abuse victim to say something.Well, Jonathan, lots of abuse victims in Sovereign Grace Ministries did say something and” O Captain, My Captain” and you chose to pal around with CJ Mahaney. If 9 Marx is involved, I would tell any abuse victims to run as fast as they can away from you guys and find people like us who really do care about them.

Comments

Why 9 Marks’ Jonathan Leeman Should Have Leveled With Julie Roys About His Support of CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries/Churches — 150 Comments

  1. I heard that interview, and I was puzzled at Leeman’s seemingly naive comment that abused people should bring it up, and that maybe it won’t be heard the first time, but they should just keep bringing it up. Why? So they can be gaslighted and shamed more times??? That just didn’t sit right with me at all.

  2. Ms. Roy is making a noble effort to address the “Church in Crisis” … it is indeed … but she needs a thorough briefing on the network of bad-boys within New Calvinism and how they support/cover each other. Talking to someone working with an organization promoting “healthy” churches sounded like a good idea since she has reported on so many unhealthy ones … but as Wartburgers know, 9Marks was the wrong one to reach out to.

  3. Nice article Dee, and thanks for the mention.

    Forgive me if I am a bit skeptical of Leeman’s sudden apparent concern for victims. I attribute his appearance on “Roys Report” more to his love of being behind a microphone sharing his wisdom with us common folk than to any concern he might have for those who have been abused.

    If you want to hear hypocrisy at its finest listen to the podcast beginning at the 16:30 mark through the 19:10 mark. I would just caution you not to listen right after a meal.

    I just came across a great article that applies to the Captain and his sidekick, Jonathan Leeman.

    https://stephenmcalpine.com/why-the-exposure-of-mega-church-scandals-follows-a-particular-pattern/

    STEPHEN MCALPINE
    Different Mega-Church: Same Old Scandal

    “In the by now familiar pattern, the aforementioned “yes men” suddenly proclaim loudly that although they were part of the problem for all those years, they were bedazzled by the great one’s greatness, but now that they have clear vision again, they’re here to help.

    That’s the pattern.  It’s that simple.  You could throw it in with the seven or so Hollywood standard movie scripts that exist and it wouldn’t look out of place, so step-by-step, formulaic it is.

    The problem does not end there though.  If it did then every major evangelical leader not touched by the scandal, but who knows the leader through conferences and boards and platforms, would have arrested this decline long ago.

    But they generally didn’t, and don’t.  The primary problem is that experience shows that it is consistently the little people – those who have been trampled over by the leader and his new team – who will go to the wall to sort this out.  They constantly look for support from the big people, but the cavalry rarely arrives until the damage has been done.

    In fact Julie Roys said on the Mortification podcast that it was the courage of those who had had their lives wrecked by MacDonald’s actions to go on record that brought this to light.

    The people whose names we never would know otherwise, who never write a book, never speak at a conference, and never get a business class flight to a platform.  The people who lose their houses, their churches, their friends, and not a few nights sleep trying to get someone with enough clout to take action.”

  4. Lots of intern-clones are being pumped out of the 9Marx compound in DC.

    Construction just started on 9Mark Dever’s Baptist monastery/frathouse, for all the young men he’s mentoring.

    article about the new quarters adjoining the church:

    “Capitol Hill Baptist Church to Build Five Townhouses on Church Parking Lot at 501 A Street NE”

    https://capitolhillcorner.org/2017/06/10/capitol-hill-baptist-church-to-build-five-townhouses-on-church-parking-lot-at-501-a-street-ne/

    “The church will retain ownership of the houses, each of which will contain two units. The church plans to use the units as temporary residences for pastor-trainees and a host pastor who will oversee the operation of the units.”

    Dever has been all aTwitter about the project, posting daily photos and asking for $$$:

    https://twitter.com/MarkDever/status/1089198754534748160

  5. *jump on the bandwagon and pretend we really, really care about abuse* in the churches

    This is what I see happening. I believe that it is another form of gaslighting because they have not come clean about their own sins nor do we have evidence anything has changed behind the scenes. They’ve just realized these issues are getting important to churchgoers and that they’d better appear to be sympathetic.

    Now, one of the named pastors was asked by Dee why they did this. They gave me the 9 Marx response.”You don’t have the whole story and we can’t tell you because of confidentiality.” Dee contacted Wilhelm who said he would sign a legal release form so that they could discuss the supposed *whole story.* The response was furious. “Who’s going to adjudicate it.” I said this has nothing to with adjudication but instead an attempt to get to the truth. Guess what? Communications ceased. Hey 9 Marx….the offer is still open…

    Oh, Dee, that is priceless. I love how you called his bluff.

    These guys are nothing but a good-old-boys network IMO.

  6. Todd Wilhelm:
    But they generally didn’t, and don’t. The primary problem is that experience shows that it is consistently the little people – those who have been trampled over by the leader and his new team – who will go to the wall to sort this out. They constantly look for support from the big people, but the cavalry rarely arrives until the damage has been done.

    I found this blog while trying to find information about ARC. After falling away from “the church” for several decades, I am making my way back but found myself in a ARC plant. I have concerns about the structure, and I can see a smaller version of the many of the thing that are discussed on this blog.

    What I see, as I read about these mega churches that fall into disarray is that they forget the teachings of Jesus. They become caught up in the cult of personality and scale . As one watches the painful decades long sex scandal in the Catholic church, children were sacrificed in the name of preserving the church image. SVG, the same thing happened (versus worse). I always fall back on the beatitudes — Blessed are the meek as they will inherit the earth. Yet my heart mourns for all the victims: sexual abuse, especially childhood sexual abuse, is life altering in ways that those who have not experienced it will never be able to appreciate.

    There is obviously a pattern…..how does one stop it? I do applaud all of you who are willing to speak up and write about it.

  7. SiteSeer: These guys are nothing but a good-old-boys network IMO.

    Mary Mohler (Dr. Al’s wife) refers to the Fab 4 in T4G as “Al’s little playgroup” (Al Mohler, Mark Dever, Ligon Duncan, C.J. Mahaney). That still creeps me out. Whew!

    While C.J. has not been visible of late, Al has expanded his playgroup in Together for Calvinism: https://t4g.org/about/

  8. Jerome: Lots of intern-clones are being pumped out of the 9Marx compound in DC …

    … to join the multitude of Mohlerite-clones pumped out of SBTS and other SBC seminaries … to join the Piperites, MacArthurites, etc. Not to mention that Driscollites are still out there. When the New Calvinist bubble breaks, there will be chaos and disillusionment among the YRR. Where else will they go? Who else has truth? Jesus, perhaps?

  9. Dever’s mark will not easily be uprooted because of his successful penetration of the church marketplace through aggressive and effective marketing techniques. His product has seeped through the doors of church culture globally with talons that are very deep. It won’t easily be uprooted or dislodged.

  10. Augustine: Dever’s mark … church marketplace … marketing techniques … product …

    Sound like a business model? That’s because it is! The Christian Industrial Complex offers a variety of target markets; New Calvinism and its multitude of new reformers being a lucrative one. Books, conferences, speaker fees, adoration … it doesn’t get any better than this!

  11. Max: pray for a Damascus Road experience for Dever

    “Who are you Lord?”
    “What do you want me to do?”

    Yep, that would be a healthy mark in Dever’s journey … indeed, all of ours.

  12. Todd Wilhelm,
    Thank you for never ceasing to hold a flame to the feet of the institutional injustice in and around those who intentionally corrupt the true Body of Christ.

  13. So, Julie didn’t do her investigative journalist homework . . . ? Sorta seems like she ought to know the history on the subject of abuse of the people she intends to interview? Do we allow Roys, or anyone, to decide who’s ‘good’ and who’s ‘bad’? ‘Forget The Church, trust Julie’, or frankly even ‘Forget The Church, trust the Wartburg’ is simply replacing one trusted authority with another. People need to learn how to think, how to thoughtfully examine the issues they face, not submit to the opinions and claims of the latest, greatest ‘Voice of God’ on the landscape.

    I really hope, with all of the new Bad Boys on the block, we don’t see the longtime abusers succeed at hiding the skeletons in their closet. Because if having the ‘right systems’ of control in place, and being successful at silencing the victims is how one is judged, these bullies have had years to perfect the art.

  14. Augustine: Dever’s mark will not easily be uprooted because of his successful penetration of the church marketplace through aggressive and effective marketing techniques. His product has seeped through the doors of church culture globally with talons that are very deep. It won’t easily be uprooted or dislodged.

    And Roys just gave it her tacit approval, while all the evangelical world is watching?

  15. TS00: And Roys just gave it her tacit approval, while all the evangelical world is watching?

    If you do a search on “Julie Roys Jonathan Leeman” you will find that she has professionally interacted with him for a number of years. Here is an example from almost four years ago: http://julieroys.com/why-bother-with-church/.

  16. Ken F (aka Tweed): she has professionally interacted with him for a number of years

    As I’ve said before, the problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived. Deceivers are masters at what they do; the best of us can get tripped up by them.

  17. I am really surprised Roys didn’t connect HBC with the model that 9 Marks espouses. JMac followed the 9 Marks playbook to a tee with his yes-men elder-led model and legal contracts!

  18. As the alleged inventor of the 9Marx spelling, I demand a little TM be put next to it. If not, I’ll sue! After I drop the suit, I’ll take a working sabbatical in Florida, initiate a peacemaking process, and fire anyone who disagrees.

  19. Max: Not to mention that Driscollites are still out there.

    Speaking of whom– Driscoll will soon be hosting a seminar on biblical church governance! In other news, HBC has been certified a Best Christian Workplace! See Warren Throckmorton, who’s worried his articles are resembling those of the Babylon Bee.

  20. Thanks for the info! I had never heard of any of these people! Julie does need to do a lot of reading to get to the full understanding of how all this abuse is interconnected

  21. Jerome:
    “Capitol Hill Baptist Church to Build Five Townhouses on Church Parking Lot at 501 A Street NE”

    https://capitolhillcorner.org/2017/06/10/capitol-hill-baptist-church-to-build-five-townhouses-on-church-parking-lot-at-501-a-street-ne/

    The whole “churning out intern-clones” thing was practically going to be a given, due to CHB’s leadership aspirations and Dever’s personality. What struck ME when I first read that, as someone who actually attended CHB, was “parking was already troublesome, and now they’re getting rid of the minuscule parking they DID have? Were the neighbors given any thought?”

    Sure enough, the article raised the point, and sure enough, the answer was ‘no’…

    “A nearby resident raised the issue of the impact of the new residences on neighborhood street parking, not only because of the additional potential car users, but also because of the loss of the parking lot for church-goers. Parking issues, however, are outside of historic preservation province, and historic preservation was the question before the committee.”

    IOW, tough luck neighbors and parishioners, find your own parking. We’ve got intern-clones to take care of.

    I am SO not surprised.

  22. “To get real practical for a moment, I appreciate C. J. and Carolyn Mahaney’s example of teaching their son to always be the first to volunteer to pray. They are teaching him not just to be a Christian, but to be a biblically masculine Christian.”
    (Jonathan Leeman (Why Complementariainism is Crucial to Discipleship, 9Marks, 7th January 2010)

  23. “JONATHAN LEEMAN attends Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington DC. He has his MDiv from The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and is presently working on a Ph.D. at the University of Wales. ” taken from Moody Press website 2019. (https://www.mpnewsroom.com/content/jonathan-leeman)

    “I attended the University of Rochester for my undergraduate, the London School of Economics and SBTS for masters degrees, and then the University of Wales for a Ph.D. in systematic theology, specializing in political theology” taken from an interview with B & H Academic 2015. (https://www.bhacademicblog.com/an-interview-with-jonathan-leeman-on-baptist-foundations/)

    Does he have a Ph D or not?

  24. I am sad this happens to people, it should not. These folks who tout their superiority in doctrine, method etc would not know Jesus if he fell out of the sky and landed on them while they were preaching about Him.

  25. Lowlandseer: “To get real practical for a moment, I appreciate C. J. and Carolyn Mahaney’s example of teaching their son to always be the first to volunteer to pray. They are teaching him not just to be a Christian, but to be a biblically masculine Christian.”

    In my humble opinion, this is the training of another generation of “white washed sepulchers”. The kids will do it for the accolades they receive, but then can’t follow through with perfection in other areas… they can’t be “real”… so they begin a double life. I’ve seen it happen more than once.

  26. Jonathan Leeman pens a Dear Abby style column at the 9Marks website for men having trouble implementing 9Marksism at their churches. It is the only place comments are allowed on the entire site.

    The “9Marks Mailbag” is supposedly updated weekly, but it’s been nearly a year since Leeman has answered any questions!

    https://www.9marks.org/mailbag/archives/

  27. Lowlandseer,

    He does have his PhD. However, I have an interesting question for you and all readers.
    “Jonathan began his career in journalism where he worked as an editor for an international economics magazine in Washington, D. C. ”

    Some of us are trying to find out which one. Can anyone find. out? Also, check out his time at theLondon School of Economics…

    I received my MBA from the University of Rochester where he attended as an undergraduate.

  28. Dave A A: Driscoll will soon be hosting a seminar on biblical church governance! In other news, HBC has been certified a Best Christian Workplace!

    (insert Twilight Zone music here)

  29. brian: would not know Jesus if he fell out of the sky

    If they know Jesus, they don’t talk about Him much. The new reformers are name-droppers …. icons like Piper and Dever get more sermon time than Jesus in a lot of their pulpits.

  30. TS00: And Roys just gave it her tacit approval, while all the evangelical world is watching?

    The people I feel for are those abused at SGM. How must they feel seeing Julie supporting Leeman and the 9Marks ring leaders.

  31. Dee, it was ‘The International Economy”

    http://www.international-economy.com/AboutTIE.htm

    “a specialized quarterly magazine covering global financial policy, economic trends, and international trade…the publication is edited for and read by central bankers, politicians, and members of the financial community”

    The magazine enjoys a powerful and influential editorial advisory board…International Economy is unlike virtually any other magazine in that it is targeted almost exclusively to the financial policy elite.”

    Jonathan Leeman listed on the magazine’s masthead, circa 1999:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=9pO3AAAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=“george+soros”+”jonathan+leeman”

  32. Jonathan wrote me today and apologized for not mentioning his connection to CJ Mahaney when I invited him to participate on my show. He said it didn’t occur to him to do that, and I take his statement at face value. That being said, I am responsible for vetting the guests for my show, and I failed on this one. I am so sorry, especially to those who are victims of abuse. My heart goes out to you and I ask for your forgiveness.

  33. Julie Roys: Jonathan wrote me today and apologized for not mentioning his connection to CJ Mahaney when I invited him to participate on my show. He said it didn’t occur to him to do that, and I take his statement at face value.

    I hope this means Jonathan is starting to take this seriously. The New-Calvinists really dropped the ball on how they responded to the CJ Mahaney problem. So much more needs to be done by them.

  34. Max: Deceivers are masters at what they do; the best of us can get tripped up by them.

    I certainly did. I did not know how much I was influenced by this version of Calvinism until the fog started to lift a few years ago. I was part of the problem and did not know it. Now that I am changing direction I have friends and relatives who are worried that I am becoming some kind of apostate. I suppose apostasy is good if it is a turn away from falsehood. I am very glad for the things I have learned from the TWW commumity.

  35. Julie Roys,

    Thanks for this, Julie. I hope it helps those who have been abused.

    That aside, it doesn’t surprise me that it didn’t occur to Leeman that his connection to CJ and Dever would be a trigger to those abused at SGM. Authoritarians have a hard time seeing how their actions and ideas can turn abusive.

  36. Bridget:
    That aside, it doesn’t surprise me that it didn’t occur to Leeman that his connection to CJ and Dever would be a trigger to those abused at SGM. Authoritarians have a hard time seeing how their actions and ideas can turn abusive.

    I think 9 Marks itself is responsible for a lot of abuse. For example, it would have counseled members of HBC not to leave and to “obey” JMac. Many 9 Marks pastors are still supports of JMac.

    The idea that church members have no authority and pastors have all authority is an abusive concept, and I believe it is also not a biblical one.

    The idea that church members cannot leave an abusive church is wrong.

    The idea that love is not the primary mark of a church, and the only mark of where we should worship, is wrong.

  37. Todd Wilhelm,

    STEPHEN MCALPINE
    +++++++++++++++

    i dunno… he’s a member of The Gospel Coalition in Australia. he speaks of breaking ranks, but yet benefits from the platform they give him.

  38. Julie Roys: He said it didn’t occur to him to do that

    There’s a lot in New Calvinist ranks that these folks don’t occur to do, while they seem OK to do things they ought not. The ole-boy network allegiance to folks like C.J. Mahaney is baffling.

    Julie, thank you for getting back to Leeman on this – you can only trust folks to be honest with you. Unfortunately, many TWW readers have experienced first-hand a betrayal in trust of church leaders.

  39. Max: Hatchet

    Of course, it’s already there. I have multiple former church members friends from our neocal which imploded under heavy abuse who have now turned to atheism or become skeptics about whether God even is real.

    After the church fell apart, we were all scattered, but we loosely keep in touch. One group turned to ultra liberalism, as in universalism and new age beliefs. Our former pastor is one of these, once a hard core Calvinist, now he doesn’t really believe in anything solid anymore. He now despises abuse in the church and hates what he once was, but he’s thrown out the baby with the bathwater, he’s now something of a hybrid new ager/Christian (of course incompatible).

    Another group went to another church where they could get more abuse. One former young elder and several members found another neocal church in a nearby city; it’s arguably worse that ours was. The elder is now a pastor at one of their plants. Every single one of those members who at first left with him has now left him just like we all once left the first pastor—like our former pastor, he was also too abusive and conniving. One of those friends who left with him now refuses to even discuss God and claims to be an unbeliever.

    Last night my son in law told me he was speaking with a common friend of ours from our former church who left after it imploded and became a missionary. He is so disillusioned that he’s ready to reject the faith entirely. He said “All these people claim to follow Jesus, and they’re “good Christians” when it suits them and benefits them and gives them friendship and fellowship and good stuff—but as soon as it requires sacrifice, they drop the faith like it’s nothing.”

    He’s beginning to believe it’s all a crock. I’d say he was just hanging around too many neocalvinists.

  40. Julie Roys:
    Jonathan wrote me today and apologized for not mentioning his connection to CJ Mahaney when I invited him to participate on my show. He said it didn’t occur to him to do that, and I take his statement at face value. That being said, I am responsible for vetting the guests for my show, and I failed on this one. I am so sorry, especially to those who are victims of abuse. My heart goes out to you and I ask for your forgiveness.

    You’re just going to have to forgive a middle aged recovering former lawyer for not believing one syllable of what Leeman said.

    I think he’s lying to you, flat out cynical lying. At least you got an apology—but then again, I once was young and now am old, and I’ve learned that apologies are not only worthless, sometimes they’re positively harmful, sometimes they’re just a cover-your-butt maneuver, sometimes they’re just another chess move with the end game of serving self. I think USUALLY that’s what they are. Jesus didn’t tell us to apologize, he told us to repent. And that don’t come easy.

  41. While rummaging through Google I came across this rather strange article about 9 Marks, Jonathan Leeman and the London School of Economics. If I’ve read it properly it would seem that they are hoping to establish a theocracy.

    “THE NEW CALVINISTS: SETTING UP THE CHURCH FOR THE NOAHIDE LAWS

    IX Marks is the church planting organization of Mark Dever, the pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist, a Southern Baptist church located on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C. six blocks from the United States Capitol. Jonathan Leeman is the Editorial Director of IX Marks which ministers to a network of over 4,000 churches internationally.

    Jonathan Leeman has Masters degrees from the London School of Economics and Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He also has a Ph.D. in “political theology” from the University of Wales which was established by Royal Charter in 1893 and whose Chancellor is Prince Charles of Wales. The London School of Economics is not found in Leeman’s various biographical profiles probably because it was funded in 1894 by the Third-Waysocialist/fascist Fabian Society which established the LSE to educate and train an elite workforce to carry out the schemes of the British Eugenics Society. IX Marks, the organization of Cambridge-educated Mark Dever, equips pastors and church leaders to preach and put into practice the Social Gospel. Most of the Reformed leadership have advanced degrees from universities in the United Kingdom—Oxford, Cambridge, London School of Economics, University of Edinburgh—whose liberal theology and politics have caused the liberalization of the Church of England and of the UK.

    Graduates of these institutions of Marxist learning have migrated to the U.S. as agents of social change. They have infiltrated our seminaries, colleges and denominations for the purpose of shipwrecking Christian faith in America, especially of university and seminary students. The Reformed New Calvinist movement has theologically and often physically taken over Christian churches. Posturing as the “conservative resurgence” (launched in the late 70s by Banner of Truth Trust UK) Reformed operatives are now peddling every liberal theological and political position of the radical Left, including sexual perversion, abortion, Marxism, Gnosticism, racism, illegal immigration, etc. (See Thomas Littleton’s articles)

    In the photo below, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman are speaking to pastors at the 2018 Southern Baptist Convention on the need to abandon their conservative convictions, such as pro-life, in order to advance political agendas for social justice. (See “9Marks Dever & Fabian Socialist Lecture Pastors on How to Ditch Your Pro-Life Voting Habit”)

    Apparently in the Reformed Calvinist SBC a doctorate in “political theology” from a secular university qualifies one as a theologian who is competent to counsel Christian ministers about moral issues like abortion. Jonathan Leeman’s political theology degree sounds more like a religious cover for political operatives like him to move conservative Christians away from sound doctrine into liberal theology and politics. Interesting that Dever and Leeman chose to publicly advocate for pro-abortion voting as a Christian option just months before the 2018 elections which filled the vacated Republican seats in the House of Representatives and many state governments with radical liberals. Who knew that the prospect of legalizing infanticide would follow in the soon to be euthanized USA? Did Dever and Leeman have prior knowledge of this plan to legalize the murder of newborn babies? Abortion leading to infanticide will pave the legal road to euthanasia which will lead to the mass extermination of Christians, which is the subject of this report.

    There are many such left-wing political operatives in the New Calvinist movement. Having assisted the ruin of the faith and morals of future generations with their pseudo apologetics, the New SBC Calvinists are now positioned to offer their predetermined alternative to conservative Christianity and Western Civilization through their Fabian Socialist spokesman, Jonathan Leeman, who also advocates for revolution in his book, Political Church: The Local Assembly as Embassy of Christ’s Rule:

    “I am not positive there is biblical license for overturning an unjust government, but I think there probably is, and I believe that Genesis 9:5-6 provides that licence…

    “Rebellion is justified not according to the withdrawal of consent (since consent is not what creates the obligation to obey); rebellion is justified when the government fails to do what God has obligated it to do (since God creates the obligation to obey by assigning government with its task).

    “In other words, the formally designated holder of the sword has no authority to set aside the demands of the justice mechanism in the process of fulfilling its mandate, lest it boomerang back and strike him as it does the vigilante. The mere fact that a particular government is in place by God’s secret providence does not mean that all its actions or directives are morally legitimate. God gives authority to government for certain ends only, and its rule is legitimate to the extent it pursues just ends by just means. A characteristically unjust government, by virtue of its injustice, has exceeded its authorization and self-refuted its own mandate, thereby triggering the operations of God’s Noahic justice mechanism to strike back. And precisely because Scripture does not specify how a society must form a government, it just might leave a society with the freedom to topple an unjust ruler and to establish a new one by just means.”

    Leeman, Jonathan. Political Church: The Local Assembly as Embassy of Christ’s Rule (Studies in Christian Doctrine and Scripture) (pp. 195-196). InterVarsity Press.

    Political Church is not a theological treatise of “Studies in Christian Doctrine and Scripture” as stated in the subtitle. It is political propaganda which advocates for the replacement of secular governments, which have not produced the desired utopia, with a global theocracy. The book promotes the Jewish Polity (government by theocracy) of the Old Testament, with a flimsy, legalistic application to the New Testament Church. (Polity; 1. a form or process of civil government or constitution. 2. an organized society; a state as a political entity. New Oxford Dictionary)

    https://gazetawarszawska.com/index.php/historia-2/3001-the-jerusalem-sanhedrin-prepares-to-enforce-the-noahide-laws-2

  42. ishy: I think 9 Marks itself is responsible for a lot of abuse.

    And they compound the abuse by not holding famous New-Calvinist leaders to the 9Marx standards. CJ Mahaney is perhaps the best example. Their proven inconsistency is their acknowledgement that their system does not work.

  43. Ken F (aka Tweed): Their proven inconsistency is their acknowledgement that their system does not work.

    Added to their proven consistency to cover and support each other at all costs … until the potato becomes too hot to handle.

  44. Julie Roys: Jonathan wrote me today and apologized for not mentioning his connection to CJ Mahaney when I invited him to participate on my show. He said it didn’t occur to him to do that, and I take his statement at face value. That being said, I am responsible for vetting the guests for my show, and I failed on this one. I am so sorry, especially to those who are victims of abuse. My heart goes out to you and I ask for your forgiveness.

    Hi Julie

    Thank you for your kind comment. You are a class act.

    I think it would have been hard for you to fully vet Leeman. He has been flying under the radar when it comes to his undying and affectionate support of CJ Mahaney. I only knew about it because I closely followed the SGM scandal back many years ago.

    As a result, I know all of the players. For example, do you know of Carl Truman’s role in exonerating CJ Mahaney which caused much pain for the survivors of abuse within his ministry? Way too may people quietly support Mahaney, making sure he gets endorsements and engagements in their ministries. 9 Marks and Capitol Hill Baptist Church, led by Mark Dever, have made sure Mahaney is totally exonerated for the scandal in his ministry while those who were harmed are denigrated.. Dever himself as implied that the victims don’t know what they are talking about or something to that effect. See the quote in the post.

    In the meantime, the #metoo #churchtoo movement has appeared and most of these guys are jumping on the bandwagon, pretending they actually care about abuse when their history proves otherwise, especially when it involves one of their own. Unfortunately, for them, the victims and their advocates have long memories.

    As for Leeman, he can say what he wants. The minute he heard about your concern for the SGM scandal in your opening address, he should have made an effort to apologize immediately. Sadly, he needed a post to embarrass him into doing so.

    9 Marks claims they are building healthy churches. There have been incident after incident reported about the harmful application of their 9 Marks discipline system in churches. The incident that Leeman reported on your show (and tried to make it sound like a simple oopsy)) is what happened to Karen Hinckley at The Village Church. Chandler and his elders would not let her get an annulment from her husband who was watching child pornography. Not only that but he had reported to her possible pedophile behavior. Amy Smith and I documented what happened very carefully. We even had the emails and texts from the various leaders at TVC.

    Leeman’s comment about their *pious* nature in this is ridiculous and the evidence, carefully documented, show exactly the opposite. These men seemingly threatenedHinckley trying to find out where she was living in order to force her to be *under them.* We have the data, the emails, the texts, everything. Leeman has done his best to cover over what happened there. It was despicable.

    Julie, the problem is this. We have allowed them to define for us what they are. But, they have done their best to hide the serious problems with their paradigm. TWW has been carefully documenting these problems by featuring stories of churches which have had serious problems with these applications. These are not just ugly stories by angry parishioners. They are carefully documented incidents.

    This is not a grievance blog. I belong to a wonderful church and outside of that have started a ministry for medical care for human trafficking victims. I have no grievance against churches. I become angry when churches abuse people under the guise of *healthy Biblical adherence.* I document everything, linking ad nauseam. What some leaders don’t like is that I do have proof so they attempt to discredit me withs stupid arguments that only silly people believe like *libel.* (You’ve been there,)

    Many people have forgotten the victims of Sovereign Grace. I have not and will not until God brings me home.

    Here are a few posts I’ve written about the abusive application of church discipline.-9 Marks style.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/03/14/the-allegedly-abusive-church-discipline-practices-of-steve-estes-senior-pastor-of-cefc-and-lecturer-at-westminster-theological-seminary/

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/08/27/capital-hill-baptist-church-the-hotel-california-of-church-discipline/

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/12/27/first-baptist-church-sapulpa-celebrates-christmas-by-embracing-9-marks-and-cancelling-the-membership-of-the-elderly-and-those-who-dont-give-money/

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2018/11/16/my-advice-to-former-members-of-cave-city-baptist-church-find-someplace-that-isnt-measuring-your-holiness-quotient/

    Once again, Julie, I rejoice that the lawsuit was lifted. I knew it would be. You have been a clear voice against abusive churches and I’m grateful for you. I do not blame you for Leeman’s presence. I continue to place the blame squarely at his feet. He’s not stupid and knows exactly what he is doing.

  45. Law Prof: Of course, it’s already there.I have multiple former church members friends from our neocal which imploded under heavy abuse who have now turned to atheism or become skeptics about whether God even is real.

    Last night my son in law told me he was speaking with a common friend of ours from our former church who left after it imploded and became a missionary.He is so disillusioned that he’s ready to reject the faith entirely.He said “All these people claim to follow Jesus, and they’re “good Christians” when it suits them and benefits them and gives them friendship and fellowship and good stuff—but as soon as it requires sacrifice, they drop the faith like it’s nothing.”

    Was it clear if he was talking about the leadership, the people he met on mission (which is another issue in itself, as some iterations of missions are sadly of the Matthew 23:15 variety producing twofold sons of Gehenna), those that left when you all did, those that stayed, or some combo? While it can be discouraging to see raging hypocrisy and abuse of power and finances, the cautions about grievous wolves and the need for certain leaders to be above reproach haven’t waned over time.

    We need to take what is written seriously about trials and challenges, which includes realizing how much of the Lord’s focus was spent on calling out the failings of those who were supposed to be sharing the truth with the assembly. Hopefully we can help him and others to not let the failings of the modern-day Pharisees leave their vitctims in bitterness and pain over what should be a god and loving relationship with God.

  46. JDV: Was it clear if he was talking about the leadership, the people he met on mission (which is another issue in itself, as some iterations of missions are sadly of the Matthew 23:15 variety producing twofold sons of Gehenna), those that left when you all did, those that stayed, or some combo? While it can be discouraging to see raging hypocrisy and abuse of power and finances, the cautions about grievous wolves and the need for certain leaders to be above reproach haven’t waned over time.

    We need to take what is written seriously about trials and challenges, which includes realizing how much of the Lord’s focus was spent on calling out the failings of those who were supposed to be sharing the truth with the assembly. Hopefully we can help him and others to not let the failings of the modern-day Pharisees leave their vitctims in bitterness and pain over what should be a god and loving relationship with God.

    Honestly don’t know what he was talking about. Son in law was speaking to me over dinner, and since it was a rare going-out-with-friends nice dinner, the subject moved on to happier topics. I know one great source of controversy with my son in law that he has been discussing with former members has been the listing of our old friends from the ex-church into either heavier abuse (one guy recently left the church led by the former elder-cum-abusive-pastor I mentioned above and took his wife and five kids and took them straight to…an SGM church. Ugh!) or into angry atheism or into vague, new age spiritualism. There’s only a small remnant, maybe one in five people from our former church, who are holding onto what appears to be real faith in Jesus, and most of us are “dones”, out of church entirely or bouncing from place to place, getting out before the wolves start clinging to you. So my guess is it was about our former church members. But I can’t be sure.

  47. Ken F (aka Tweed): And they compound the abuse by not holding famous New-Calvinist leaders to the 9Marx standards. CJ Mahaney is perhaps the best example. Their proven inconsistency is their acknowledgement that their system does not work.

    And a clear indication of hypocrisy. I think Jesus had response to this sort of behavior and it contained the millstone.

    Ken F (aka Tweed): And they compound the abuse by not holding famous New-Calvinist leaders to the 9Marx standards. CJ Mahaney is perhaps the best example. Their proven inconsistency is their acknowledgement that their system does not work.

    Ken F (aka Tweed),

    Ken F (aka Tweed),

    Ken F (aka Tweed),

    Ken F (aka Tweed),

  48. In 2015 C.J. Mahaney came out with an updated version of his book “Humility True Greatness.” The reason for the update was Mahaney wanted Joshua Harris’ name off the cover of the book as having written the foreword. Mark Dever wrote the foreword for the updated version and his name now is on the cover. I documented all this in a post I wrote in November 2016 titled “Crooked Mahaney Corrupts Mark Dever.” https://thouarttheman.org/2016/11/19/crooked-mahaney-corrupts-mark-dever/

    Lest anyone think the Dever/Leeman duo has backed off their support of Mahaney the quote below from Dever’s foreword of Mahaney’s novel should remove any talk of that. The day Dever asks Mahaney to remove his foreword and also retracts his T4G statement of support for Mahaney is the day we can believe they may be beginning to support victims of abuse. Until that happens let’s hope in the future that Leeman develops a modicum of integrity and refrains from making appearances on podcasts which support victims of sexual abuse.

    “In the pastoral internship at our church, we ask each intern to begin by reading this book and then writing a five-page paper on themselves, using the lenses that C.J. has provided here. These papers are always good exercises for them, and they always lead to good initial discussions among the interns. It’s hard to imagine a more important way to begin an internship designed to equip men to serve the Savior who laid down his life for us.”
    -Mark Dever in his foreword to C.J. Mahaney’s book “Humility True Greatness” July 2015

  49. Lowlandseer,

    That “article” is irresponsible and extremist to the point of evil. I strongly suspect that it was produced to inflame opinion. It is hateful gibberish. (I would not encourage anyone to waste time reading it, but if you do, please use an incognito window.)

  50. Lowlandseer,

    I don’t know about the other stuff in the article, but today LSE is known as a really great school of business, one of the world elites, up there with Harvard, Stanford, U of Chicago and the like. I have no idea who founded them or why back in the 19th century, but that’s not much relevant to what’s going on today. If Leeman actually got a masters from there, he might be a liar and a scoundrel, but at the very least he’s a pretty darned bright one.

  51. Todd Wilhelm: The reason for the update was Mahaney wanted Joshua Harris’ name off the cover of the book as having written the foreword.

    When Harris essentially repented of giving bad advice in his book “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”, the New Calvinists essentially kissed him goodbye. These guys deserve each other, but the pew doesn’t deserve any of them … they are taking the American church for a ride.

  52. dee: I do not blame you for Leeman’s presence. I continue to place the blame squarely at his feet. He’s not stupid and knows exactly what he is doing.

    These folks are all about using other folks for their advantage. That, in itself, is a form of abuse. They contribute to the Church in Crisis … smooth and elusive, slimy and deceptive. New Calvinism has a cast of characters that should be held at a distance, rather than giving them a microphone.

  53. Unfortunately, this is only the beginning.

    Get ready for the ERLC, Russell Moore, J.D. Greear, and a host of SBC pastors and groups enthusiastically endorse some sort of “report” on sexual abuse in churches that will endorse actions and attitudes that were prohibited by SGM churches, and that during all of the controversy, these guys will act like they never knew CJ Mahaney.

    It is maddening. And people are right to point this out whenever they appear and speak on this issue.

    But consider it from another perspective.

    By appearing on this show, and not saying anything to defend SGM and Mahaney, Mr. Leeman has essentially conceded. That cannot be a good thing. Rev Dever and Mahaney cannot be pleased.

    And the host of this show could do a follow up on this show. And now armed with this information that Leeman appeared on her show once and made no effort to defend Mahaney, how can he appear a second time and defend him?

    The outrage at people being allowed to essentially switch jerseys from their team to the opponent’s jerseys as the clock runs out to 0, and then celebrate with the fans of the other team just to be on the winning side is quite aggravating.

    Maybe a silver lining may appear in all of this.

  54. Todd Wilhelm,

    Todd:

    Do you think that Mahaney will return to T4G? Is he just in the penalty box for now?

    Or do you think things will continue such that he really can’t return publicly?

    My belief is that T4G will change and morph.

    There are too many rising stars, and not one of the 4 in T4G is of another race.

    This crowd, and several in the SBC, have rushed headlong into the throws of a Christian version of Critical Race Theory that they call “Racial Reconciliation”.

    T4G is a white thing from beginning to end.

    That will give them a great excuse to retool it. Make it more racially inclusive. And they will elevate other speakers such as Platt, Anyabwile, Chandler, Moore, and some of the new young African American lights at Southern (Jarvis Williams) and Southeastern (Walter Strickland).

    An old saying in Engineering and Environmental Science is, “The solution to pollution is dilution.”

    They will simply dilute Mahaney’s prominence without having to official rebuke or deal with him.

    That’s my theory, for what it’s worth.

  55. Oracle at Delphi: Get ready for the ERLC, Russell Moore, J.D. Greear, and a host of SBC pastors and groups enthusiastically endorse some sort of “report” on sexual abuse in churches that will endorse actions and attitudes that were prohibited by SGM churches, and that during all of the controversy, these guys will act like they never knew CJ Mahaney.

    No doubt about it. They will use various platforms to appear as if they have been taking the high road all along and the SBC multitudes will fall for it. “Mahaney who?”

    There was an SBC resolution passed at the annual convention in 2013 “On Sexual Abuse Of Children” which had Mahaney/SGM in mind. In that resolution:

    “We encourage all denominational leaders and employees of the Southern Baptist Convention to utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse.”

    That obviously didn’t stop Mohler from helping his bud from becoming an SBC member!

    http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/1230/on-sexual-abuse-of-children

  56. Law Prof,

    “If Leeman actually got a masters from there, he might be a liar and a scoundrel, but at the very least he’s a pretty darned bright one.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    i’ll never get over how ‘pretty darned bright ones’ are so easily led & taken in by the machinations of christian culture.

  57. Law Prof: If Leeman actually got a masters from there, he might be a liar and a scoundrel, but at the very least he’s a pretty darned bright one.

    New Calvinism has attracted a lot of intellectual folks, but not many spiritual.

  58. Todd Wilhelm,

    Thank you for your sacrifices in Dubai. It looks like we continue to need to be vigilant when it comes to these guys. I think you agree with me. Leeman is smart enough to know exactly what he is doing. And that is what makes me so darn mad. This is not the form of the faith that I found as a 17 year old kid in Salem. I am so sad to see how things have gone.

  59. dee: This is not the form of the faith that I found as a 17 year old kid in Salem.

    No, but the form of faith you found then is worth defending. Thank you Dee for standing in the gap (and Deb if you are listening in).

  60. Max: New Calvinism has attracted a lot of intellectual folks, but not many spiritual.

    I agree about the dearth of spiritual folks, but quibble about the intellectuals. The movement does seem to have some folks with advanced degrees from recognized institutions (better than diploma mills, fraud, or prideful ignorance). The thinking, though, is not what I would call scholarly. What original contributions to knowledge have New Calvinist scholars made?

    “Seek the truth; come whence it may, cost what it will.” —William Sparrow

  61. Max: When Harris essentially repented of giving bad advice in his book “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”, the New Calvinists essentially kissed him goodbye. These guys deserve each other, but the pew doesn’t deserve any of them … they are taking the American church for a ride.

    Was it that or was it due to Harris breaking rank with the rest ofSGM Leadership that supported Mahaney not to mention others that see to still support Mahaney?

  62. Steve240: Was it that or was it due to Harris breaking rank with the rest ofSGM Leadership that supported Mahaney not to mention others that see to still support Mahaney?

    Harris had a crisis of belief on several fronts I think. He was too young, inexperienced and zealous to be in leadership and bailed out to go to seminary. I’ve lost track of him in recent years; I suppose he’s still in seminary (in Canada, I think). Breaking rank with SGM & Mahaney sealed his fate within New Calvinism. He will probably resurface in mainstream Christianity eventually.

  63. Friend: I agree about the dearth of spiritual folks, but quibble about the intellectuals.

    I used “intellectual” loosely,tongue in cheek. Only the New Calvinists think that of themselves. As Orwell said “Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.”

  64. Friend,

    Your assessment is right. I came across an identical article on another site run by a group in the USA which seems to be the original source. If GBTC thinks it best to remove it that would be okay.

  65. ___

    “The Search For Positive 501c3 Religious Solutions, Perhaps?”

    hmmm…

    Please notice that since1963 the following increasing patterns have been identified as occurring at alarming rates:

    Divorce.
    Breakup of family unit.
    Social acceptance of various alternate sexual practices.
    Teen-age pregnancies.
    Elimination of unwanted pregnancies.
    Crime.

    *What is found interesting and believed to be the most striking common denominator to all of these ‘indicators’ is the banning of the Bible and prayer in public schools.

    Removing God from our public schools?

    Imagine that.

    ;~)

    – –

  66. ___

    The ESV Bible (English Standard Version) is faithful to the original Alexandrian Westcott and Hort Greek New Testament text published in London England in 1881, where the following verses are omitted in their entirety:

    Matthew 17.21, 18.11, 23.14
    Mark 7.16, 9.44, 9.46, 11.26, 15.28
    Luke 17.36, 23.17
    John 5.4
    Acts 8.37, 15.34, 28.29
    Romans 16.24
    1 John 5.7

    *These verses are considered variants, and not included in the oldest extant manuscripts.

    ;~)

    – –

  67. ___

    Ca Boom Town: “501c3 churches; pierced for their stupidity and lack of doing diligence?”

    hmmm…

    WikiP:

    “In 2007, the ESV underwent a minor revision, and the publisher DID NOT identify the updated text as a revised edition. The update changed about 500 words by focusing on grammar, consistency, and clarity.[9] One notable change was from “wounded for our transgressions” to “pierced for our transgressions”.[9]

    In April 2011, another edition was issued, involving 275 verses and less than 500 words. The publisher announced the intention of the changes were to correct grammar, improve consistency or increase precision in meaning. [9] The 2007 edition has been gradually phased out.[10]

    In August 2016, Crossway announced the “ESV Permanent Text Edition” with 52 word changes[11] in 29 verses. The publishers announced their intention to leave the text alone for the foreseeable future after this update.[12][13] However, this policy was abandoned the following month, with Crossway announcing that they would still consider “minimal and infrequent” updates to reflect “textual discoveries or changes in English over time”.

    Lane Dennis, Crossway’s president and CEO, said: “We apologize for this and for any concern this has caused for readers of the ESV […] Our desire, above all, is to do what is right before the Lord.”[14].

    hahahahaha

    Tell me another ‘$tory’ daddy…

    …illustrious Crossway can certainly have ‘my’ seat…

    Q. What is wrong with this CORPORATE picture?

    ___

    501c3 Exit music: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DfcFIkFt9GI

    ;~)

    – –

  68. Max: Meant to say “That obviously didn’t stop Mohler from helping his bud become an SBC member.”After Mahaney fled to Louisville, he and his church were embraced by the SBTS community … they joined the SBC with no opposition in 2015.

    By making a very large donation to SBTS, Mahaney was clearly “repentant”…

    Mahaney constantly says he had no knowledge of the abuse at SGM (though we know that’s not true due to the victim’s testimonies and Mr. Detwiler’s excellent documentation).

    I think that’s going to be Mohler and Moore’s dividing line–always believe the pastor, never the victims, because the pastor is “called” and more predestined than the pew peons. Sure they’re “against” abuse in the church, but that abuse can never be caused by the pastor who is certainly doing God’s divine will.

  69. dee,

    Dee,
    Thank you for this information. I will read all you have offered here as soon as I get the chance. I appreciate your work to defend the weak.

    Blessings…

  70. ishy: By making a very large donation to SBTS, Mahaney was clearly “repentant”…

    I suppose that’s a factor with New Calvinist leaders, but for the life of me I don’t understand why the YRR idolize Mahaney. I can sort of understand their affection for Mohler – he’s so smart and all with that big stack of books. And Dever, well he has provided them a way to use the Bible to knock heads when they pastor their own churches to keep the pew in line. But Mahaney?! Why do the new reformers adore him so much?

  71. __

    Marking Time: “9 Marks claims they are building healthy churches…”

    hmmm…

    Like Dever is want to say, “We’ll see”…

    *

    Dee, should we worry about the proverbial 501c3 calvinesta stealthily armed robbers?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KE08pz1soog

    With an estimated five hundred thousand social media victim 501c3 religious castaways looking for justice?

    You’re in for a $how soon…

    (grin)

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s2o4zxtqNZ4

    It’s loosely called One 501c3 Religious Victim to One Bottle retribution Internet technology. RVR ™

    (Snicker)

    Sending Out An S.O.S.
    Sending Out An S.O.S.
    Sending Out An S.O.S.

    *

    “501c3 Abuse is just the way it is?”

    Ah, but don’t you believe them…

    “Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God…” -Apostle John

    YaHoooooo!

    ;~)

    – –
    Exit music:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cOeKidp-iWo

    -=-

  72. Max,

    They do have an odd but consistent brotherhood. Harris did not commit to the New Cal cause, so they dropped him, but Mahaney devoted himself to it (and Mohler). I’m sure the money helped, though, and there’s probably more of that going on in TGC than anyone is aware.

    Too bad they have a tendency to turn on anyone not a pastor who questions them.

  73. Ishy: Too bad they have a tendency to turn on anyone not a pastor who questions them.

    For a while, there was a grassroots group of Southern Baptist pastors, holding to traditional non-Calvinist belief (Connect 316), who challenged Mohler and his band … but he won.

  74. Jonathan Leeman is obviously self-promoting self-elevating and deceitful. Oh, and doesn’t give a d*mn about sexually abused children. As no one who hates child sexual abuse could stomach C.J. Mahaney.

    Isn’t Mark Driscoll pro 9 Marks but also ran off and did not allow himself to face discipline?

    Isn’t 9 Marks adding to the Bible?

    9 Marks just seems like another cult.

  75. Deb: I heard that interview, and I was puzzled at Leeman’s seemingly naive comment that abused people should bring it up, and that maybe it won’t be heard the first time, but they should just keep bringing it up.

    This seems to be a thing women here in regards to men as well. Seems the problem is more like no one is listening the first time…

    Jerome: “Capitol Hill Baptist Church to Build Five Townhouses on Church Parking Lot at 501 A Street NE”

    Interesting, as they had several townhouses already back in the 90’s. That seems like a lot.

  76. Guest: self-promoting self-elevating and deceitful

    That comes with the New Calvinist territory. Obviously, not fruit of the Spirit.

    Guest: 9 Marks

    And not one of them is “Love”

  77. Eeyore: What struck ME when I first read that, as someone who actually attended CHB, was “parking was already troublesome, and now they’re getting rid of the minuscule parking they DID have? Were the neighbors given any thought?”

    Yeah, that seems pretty rude to me. Parking is important! The metro is at least 6 (?) blocks away too, iirc.

  78. ishy: The idea that church members have no authority and pastors have all authority is an abusive concept, and I believe it is also not a biblical one.

    It’s especially mind blowing coming from a supposed Baptist!

  79. elastigirl: “If Leeman actually got a masters from there, he might be a liar and a scoundrel, but at the very least he’s a pretty darned bright one.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    i’ll never get over how ‘pretty darned bright ones’ are so easily led & taken in by the machinations of christian culture.

    Unless the smart ones are not ‘taken in’ but are the ones leading the charge. Maybe you believe in amazing coincidences, but if the distortion of the gospel and the corruption of the Institutional Church was all a coincidence, a bunch of rogues randomly finding one another and gaining influence over the greater part of the evangelical world, I’ll eat my hat.

    For some reason, people are able to imagine an individual using and abusing others for their own benefit, but we must never imagine that they might work with others to create mass delusion and destruction. I mean, who would ever think of joining forces? And the bible never warns of evildoers conspiring together, right?

  80. Lea: they had several townhouses already back in the 90’s. That seems like a lot.

    Oh, but they need more lodging, now that New Calvinism has reached its pinnacle. A great multitude of reformed pilgrims will trek to Dever’s church, one of the holy places they must visit in their lifetime … along with traveling to Louisville (ground-zero for New Calvinism, the holiest place of all) where they hope to touch the Great One (Al Mohler).

  81. ishy,

    “I think that’s going to be Mohler and Moore’s dividing line–always believe the pastor, never the victims, because the pastor is “called” and more predestined than the pew peons.

    Sure they’re “against” abuse in the church, but that abuse can never be caused by the pastor who is certainly doing God’s divine will.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    and apparently, always believe the pastor, never the evidence.

    seems to me they see themselves as too big to fail.

    so large and so interconnected that their failure would be disastrous to the kingdom of God, and that they therefore must be supported by christian powerbrokers when they face potential failure.

    and, well, disastrous to their own personal empires.

    so transparent.

  82. Law Prof: I’ve learned that apologies are not only worthless, sometimes they’re positively harmful, sometimes they’re just a cover-your-butt maneuver, sometimes they’re just another chess move with the end game of serving self. I think USUALLY that’s what they are.

    But nowadays they have the reputation of The Magickal Mommy Kiss That Makes Everything Right.

  83. Max: I used “intellectual” loosely,tongue in cheek.Only the New Calvinists think that of themselves.As Orwell said “Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.”

    “You don’t need any intellect to be an Intellectual.”
    — G.K.Chesterton, aside in one of the Father Brown Mysteries

  84. ___

    “Skeletons In The 501c3 SGM Closet, Perhaps?”

    C. J. Mahaney constantly says, humble man that he is, that he has ‘absolute’ no knowledge.

    hmmm…

    I believe him.

    SKreeeeeeeeeeetch!

    Permit & promote N’ stage an self-proclaimed lliterate ambitious checkered past individual with a Bible and give um a free pass…see what you get?

    Sweet Emotion?

    KRunch!

    “Can’t catch me because the Maryland Judge said, ‘the truth done died…’ “
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=33ClrPlzuVQ

    ;~)

    – –

  85. Max,

    “But Mahaney?! Why do the new reformers adore him so much?”
    ++++++++++++++

    well, look at all photos of him in group shots. he stands out, but only by the giggly factor.

    perhaps christian men are secretly tired of the stiff, conservative, and proper image.

    perhaps they’re lonely on the inside, for whatever reason — each a hair-parted-on-the side in a boring suit and tie island, and trying to join the happier, looser mainland.

    cj is mr. “christian men are the happiest place on earth”.

    i think christian men are lonely and despise the stereotype of the christian man.

  86. Max,

    Aren’t these townhouses for their interns? The army of indoctrinated soldiers they are brainwashing, training and paying handsomely to spread their ‘gospel’ around the world?

  87. TS00: Aren’t these townhouses for their interns? The army of indoctrinated soldiers they are brainwashing, training and paying handsomely to spread their ‘gospel’ around the world?

    Yes, that’s the way I understand Deverville. Time spent there will look great on their resumes … ‘gospel’ = New Calvinism, with a dose of how-to techniques on church discipline.

  88. Muff Potter,

    Agreed. Some groups are power mad, but any group that has power runs the risk of showing up in 1984 or Animal Farm. We need love and reconciliation, and a habit of speaking up.

  89. TS00:
    TS00,

    And were not CJ’s two son-in-laws among these interns?

    Married into the Great House of Mahaney as Caiphas married into the Great House of Annas and Polishing-the-Shaft Schaap married into the Great House of Hyles.
    Rank Hath Its Privileges.

  90. Muff Potter: Progressive Christians can be just as Orwellian.

    From a recent post by Wenatchee the Hatchet, quoting PROPAGANDA: THE FORMATION OF MEN’S ATTITUDES by JACQUES ELLUL:

    page 254-255
    The individual is seized, manipulated, attacked from every side; the combatants of two propaganda systems do not fight each other, but try to capture him
    .
    … An additional effect of contradictory propaganda is that the individual will escape either into passivity or into total and unthinking support of one of the two sides.

    WtH then comments “It is striking to see how this current, which is the point of departure of totalitarian parties, is beginning to take hold in the United States.”

    Though WtH is talking politically, the same Us or Them (nothing else) dynamic is taking place in the American Christian realm.

    http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2019/02/ht-alan-jacobs-guardian-letter-on.html

  91. elastigirl: cj is mr. “christian men are the happiest place on earth”.
    i think christian men are lonely and despise the stereotype of the christian man.

    I don’t know what to think of this take, elastigirl! I have been wondering if CJ makes them think better of themselves, as he flatters and is not educated enough to be an intellectual threat…and you’re thinking in terms of happiness and loneliness. Interesting.

  92. Lea,

    The more cynical among you suspect that he is simply one of the team, and they are required to cover for him, whatever their personal opinion of him is. This also works when people have ‘the goods’ on one another – you cover my *ss, and I’ll cover yours. I hate to say that one’s as old as the hills, but that’s how things work in the big bad world.

  93. TS00: The more cynical among you suspect that he is simply one of the team

    None of that explains *why* he is one of the ‘team’, which is what elastigirl and I are getting at, I think. It’s not a matter of cynicism.

  94. Lea: None of that explains *why* he is one of the ‘team’, which is what elastigirl and I are getting at, I think. It’s not a matter of cynicism.

    Mahaney is a repeated high donor to SBTS, and Mohler calls much of the shots being the scenes on all these churches.

    By his donations to train new minion pastors and moving his church to the SBC and voting accordingly, Mohler gets another supporter to increase his power. I’m guessing Mahaney also bright along other key people with money.

    Most people forget that Mohler didn’t get his start as an academic, but as a fundraiser for SBTS.

  95. Before it was renamed 9Marks and folded into Capitol Hill Baptist Church as an ‘integrated auxiliary,’ the outfit had to file separate 990 forms with the IRS under its then name ‘Center for Church Reform’.

    http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2002/522/122/2002-522122636-1-F.pdf

    [final? filing, for 2002, after assets had already been transferred to the church]

    Page 6 lists three officers, all with addresses on the 500 block of East Capitol, Washington, DC:

    Matthew Schmucker
    Christopher Vizas
    Mark E. Dever

    Chris Vizas is a wealthy serial entrepreneur who bankrolled the operation in the early years. He is the ‘generous neighbor’ occasionally alluded to by the 9Marksists.

    Video from last year where Leeman, Dever, and Schmucker discussed the startup of 9Marks:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VNz714D6kw

    [‘generous neighbor’ discussed @ 4:05]

    LEEMAN – “once upon a time Mark was instrumental in founding what was then called Center for Church Reform and it’s now called 9Marks”

    LEEMAN – “How did this thing get started?
    SCHMUCKER – “It was actually a neighbor of ours…this man had some appreciation for early American Christianity because he had done a PhD up at Yale and he wanted to see this ‘kind of church’, you would say, ‘multiplied’. Make a long story short, he said why don’t you start something that does that and he offered to give us $100,000 a year for three years in row to see if we could get it off the ground…To this day I’m not sure he’s a believer”

  96. Lea,

    Not sure I follow, but perhaps one would need to hazard a guess as to the origin, make-up and agenda of this ‘team’. I do not claim to have those answers, but can only posit possible theories based upon their actions and their response to the fruit of their actions. One might suspect a desire for personal power, glory and wealth. Some suggest they are wolves, a brood of vipers, blind leading the blind – intent upon devouring the sheep. I suppose one might posit that they are simply the most inept group of well-meaning ‘leaders’ that ever accidentally stumbled into ‘power’ and heaped unintended abuse after abuse upon their alleged victims. I’m sure there are other possibilities, and endless variations upon them. Or am I still missing your point?

  97. TS00: Or am I still missing your point?

    I kind of think you are as we were talking about cj and where the appeal is.

    I think ishy is closer talking about money…I also think proximity linked Cj and Mark, but they are just an odd couple to me. I mostly thought elastigirls point was interesting.

  98. re: “why” Mahaney is one of the team

    Interesting article mentioning scheme for Reformed-Charismatic cooperation in the UK that was pushed for by Mark Dever’s mentor Roy Clements in the 1990s (Dever served under Clements at Eden Baptist Church while studying at Cambridge):

    http://media.sermonaudio.com/articles/cr-11309133345-1.PDF

    p. 14 “We mentioned Roy Clements a moment ago. We must mention him again…In 1996 he was to be found speaking at the Evangelical Alliance National Assembly advocating a working together of reformed and charismatic. This befriending aimed to harness the energy of the visionaries and young people that the charismatic movement seemed to have in abundance while weaning it off its excesses. He argued the reformed churches needed the power and life to be found in the charismatic churches while they in turn needed the solid bible teaching that the reformed church could offer.”

    That’s basically the T4G pact.

  99. Lea,

    it can’t be only about money. they seem to have shreds of decent, normal humanity.

    they’re all corrupt, of course, but seem to believe they are helping God’s kingdom. i don’t think they think they’re corrupt.

    and they sincerely seem to enjoy their friendship with Giggles.

    (who would have guessed giggly buddyship could have so much mileage with otherwise intelligent men)

  100. Jerome,

    He also played a part in the publishing of “Polity: A Collection of Historic Baptist Documents”(published 2015).

    “In an undertaking so large it is impossible to thank all of those who have aided the effort. This effort has been financed by a few anonymous con- tributors, and by a partnership of three churches: the First Baptist Church, Muscle Shoals, Alabama; Capitol Hill Baptist Church, Washington, D. C.; and Cornerstone Baptist Church, Elgin, Texas.
    A number of people have been particularly helpful in thinking through this collection and making it a reality. Chris Vizas, Rhea Thornton, Tom Harrison, Tom Ascol, Jim Elliff, Bruce Keisling, Sean Lucas, Tom Nettles and Paul Roberts have all provided needed assistance.”

  101. elastigirl: i think christian men are lonely and despise the stereotype of the christian man.

    You may well be onto something.
    Not all Christian men of course, but some.
    Makes me think of two protagonists from dystopian literature:

    Winston Smith in Orwell’s 1984, and Guy Montag in Bradbury’s Farenheit 451

  102. A slight tangent to the Post topic, but one that I think is in keeping with the spirit of Wartburg.

    I received some sad news today, in that an elderly man of God whom Lesley and I have known for nearly 20 years died today following a fall. And I do not use the phrase “man of God” lightly. There is, of course, such a thing.

    Bert was a committed and faithful member of a congregation here for over 70 years. The church saw some lean times during those decades, with small attendances and little funding; there were, I gather, times when Bert paid the pastor’s salary out of his own pocket. Again, to re-take an oft-abused word, pastors are not millionaire playboys in this neck of the woods. and it was Bert’s conviction that the pastor was needed, and too important to lose.

    Some 20 years ago the church, which was by then very small, saw a sudden influx of young families. This was the beginning of a change which, at the time of writing, sees it flourishing. It was no ideological takeover, calvinismist or otherwise, but it did involve a big change of culture, style and practice. It can be hard seeing something you’ve been familiar with for a lifetime suddenly become so different. Bert, and his wife and peers, remained patient, gracious and faithful throughout. I’ll always remember one Easter Week service where I’d been leading the music, in modern church fashion – with a lot of singing from the front. Bert came up to me afterwards, and quietly told me that he’d been disappointed. His point, graciously made, was that there’d been too much done from the front, not involving the bulk of the congregation. “I could be wrong”, he said. But he wasn’t. I learned more about “worship-leading” from that brief conversation with a seasoned follower of Jesus than in any books I’ve ever read, before or since.

    Those who are heroes in book-selling, conference-speaking and marketing like to pat one another on the back and use the word “godly”. But when I think of “godly men”, I think of me like Bert. And I hope that, at the end of my own life, I’ll have been like him.

    In memoriam:

    Bert Phaup

  103. Nick Bulbeck,

    thanks, nick. what great person, that bert.
    ———-

    “His point, graciously made, was that there’d been too much done from the front, not involving the bulk of the congregation. “I could be wrong”, he said. But he wasn’t. I learned more about “worship-leading” from that brief conversation with a seasoned follower of Jesus than in any books I’ve ever read, before or since.”
    +++++++++++

    i’m afraid i’m off on another point, though. what is your view of worship leading now? i understand something of your in-flux greater beliefs from what you’ve shared here.

    worship leaders either have to be superb pretenders or bare their soul in front an audience (sometimes a mixture of both just to get through it).

    both options sound completely intolerable, both to do and observe, when beliefs concerning God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are rearranging, or on hold,….

    not even sure what my question is. just want to hear you talk on the subject, i guess.

    ok, here’s a question — do you still see ‘worship leading’ as a viable thing to do?

    does it make your toes curl backwards like mine? (from years of participating in music while hating a good deal of it, lyrics especially)

  104. Jerome,

    I remember hearing this some time ago, and being struck by “to this day, I’m not sure he’s a believer” about the man who bankrolled Dever’s efforts.

  105. Max: Harris had a crisis of belief on several fronts I think.He was too young, inexperienced and zealous to be in leadership and bailed out to go to seminary.I’ve lost track of him in recent years; I suppose he’s still in seminary (in Canada, I think).Breaking rank with SGM & Mahaney sealed his fate within New Calvinism.He will probably resurface in mainstream Christianity eventually.

    He did resurface lately. He was fundraising for a documentary about his book I Kissed Dating Goodbye. People were hoping he’d be introspective, and admit the damage the book did in christian circles, but the feedback I heard from those who actually watched the documentary (and one woman who participated in its making) was generally quite disappointed in the result.

  106. refugee: He did resurface lately. He was fundraising for a documentary about his book I Kissed Dating Goodbye. People were hoping he’d be introspective, and admit the damage the book did in christian circles, but the feedback I heard from those who actually watched the documentary (and one woman who participated in its making) was generally quite disappointed in the result.

    Quoting myself (sorry) to add this link:
    https://twitter.com/elizabethesther/status/1074777534175178754?lang=en

  107. refugee: refugee: He did resurface lately. He was fundraising for a documentary about his book I Kissed Dating Goodbye. People were hoping he’d be introspective, and admit the damage the book did in christian circles, but the feedback I heard from those who actually watched the documentary (and one woman who participated in its making) was generally quite disappointed in the result.

    Quoting myself (sorry) to add this link:
    https://twitter.com/elizabethesther/status/1074777534175178754?lang=en

    From the followup comments, looks like the movie turned out to be a feature-length SELFIE.

  108. elastigirl: and they sincerely seem to enjoy their friendship with Giggles.

    “Giggles” Mahaney — sounds like a Dick Tracy villain, right up there with “Flutterhands” Piper.
    (Oh man… could you see those two IN a Dick Tracy strip, with their own trademark villain shticks?)

  109. elastigirl: and they sincerely seem to enjoy their friendship with Giggles.

    “Giggles” Mahaney — can you see him as a bad guy in an old Dick Tracy comic?

    (who would have guessed giggly buddyship could have so much mileage with otherwise intelligent men)

    “Intelligent men” or “Shojo Anime Schoolgirls”?

  110. Nick Bulbeck,

    Thank you for sharing about your friend.

    One thing my church does is keep the choir (old school) at the back of the church. We have occasional guest performances at the front or where the choir is walking around the church but they are rarer. One thing I appreciate is the thoughtful way these things are approached.

  111. refugee:
    Jerome,

    I remember hearing this some time ago, and being struck by “to this day, I’m not sure he’s a believer” about the man who bankrolled Dever’s efforts.

    It’s certainly a Very strange thing to say about someone, imo. Especially in this context. Maybe this is part of their desire to judge each persons salvation in general.

  112. Headless Unicorn Guy: refugee: refugee: He did resurface lately. He was fundraising for a documentary about his book I Kissed Dating Goodbye. People were hoping he’d be introspective, and admit the damage the book did in christian circles, but the feedback I heard from those who actually watched the documentary (and one woman who participated in its making) was generally quite disappointed in the result.

    From the followup comments, looks like the movie turned out to be a feature-length SELFIE.

    I could not watch this entire ‘show’. I have very intimate experience with this book, and many young people whose lives were negatively impacted by it. I could list off at least twenty young women and men I know personally, over the age of thirty, who have never had a date, kiss or a love interest, and most fear they never will. These highly controlled young people are also poorly equipped to deal with potential abusers.

    There are many heartbreaking stories that were in large part a result of this book, and Harris has not begun to own the harm he has done. He only decided to stop reprinting it last year, but continues to sell the remaining inventory. And now he’s making money off of his ‘apology’. Sorry, I’m not buying it. Like so many others, including his boss Mahaney, he slunk away, made excuses, and wants to return to the limelight with an ‘All better now!’

    IMO, he should do us all a favor and permanently disappear himself from public view. I have considered writing a book of my own, and calling it ‘I Kissed Courtship Goodbye’, but it might be too triggering. I’m talking about young people who find themselves too traumatized to hold hands, or have sex on their wedding night, and require extensive counseling to overcome the guilt and negative feelings they were brought up with. In my book, Harris falls in the same category as Mahaney and friends: they can receive forgiveness, but that doesn’t mean they get the mike again.

  113. refugee: He did resurface lately.

    It’s not surprising. Harris got a taste of fame as a New Calvinist icon – it’s tough to stay out of the limelight, ego yearns for it! Sooner or later, they all resurface after reinventing themselves (e.g., Driscoll, Mahaney).

  114. Max,

    “For such is the lure of the limelight, how sweetly
    It takes hold of the mind of its host…”
    — Ponyphonic, “Lullaby for a Princess”

  115. TS00: These highly controlled young people are also poorly equipped to deal with potential abusers.

    FEATURE, NOT BUG.

    I have considered writing a book of my own, and calling it ‘I Kissed Courtship Goodbye’, but it might be too triggering. I’m talking about young people who find themselves too traumatized to hold hands, or have sex on their wedding night, and require extensive counseling to overcome the guilt and negative feelings they were brought up with.

    As a guy who ended up internalizing all the tropes of Christianese Courtship Culture despite being raised completely outside the bubble, I say DO IT!

  116. Headless Unicorn Guy: TS00: These highly controlled young people are also poorly equipped to deal with potential abusers.
    FEATURE, NOT BUG.

    Right. Benn is on the other thread complaining about bad actors being confused with bad theology, but it is SO clearly both that is an issue here.

  117. Headless Unicorn Guy: Though WtH is talking politically, the same Us or Them (nothing else) dynamic is taking place in the American Christian realm.

    “I can see by your coat, my friend
    You’re from the other side
    There’s just one thing I got to know
    Can you tell me please, who won?”

    — David Crosby & Stephen Stills 1969 —

  118. Jerome,

    That quote strongly reminds me of Gregg Harris’s approach when he founded his first church (that grew to a mini-denomination. I can’t remember if it became part of SGM, but I do remember Josh Harris enthusing about Mahaney before going back east to join him. He also enthused about Ravi Z., FWIW.

    That unfortunate young man did not have the best of mentors.

  119. elastigirl: … ok, here’s a question — do you still see ‘worship leading’ as a viable thing to do?

    Which is always an interesting question. What I learned from Bert that evening was that acts of worship are something that everyone present does together. So I suppose that, yes, there’s a place for someone on an instrument to set an appropriate key that everyone can sing to. Though the Wee Frees (the United Free Church of Scotland) don’t even use that – they just have a loud laddie with perfect pitch who sits at the front and starts each verse. Which I really like – less, as they say, is more.

    I think the following statement is not “true and worthy of full acceptance”, but probably a good rule of thumb: there should be no famous worship-leaders. If someone is, then something is wrong. Either they’re padding their part on stage, or their fans have missed the point, or both.

  120. Meanwhile, back to Jonathan Lieman, Mark Dever and “9 Marks Brand,” Jesus defined only one imperative that would “mark” believers, “that you love one another…by this they will know you are my disciples.” It’s very telling that Dever’s “9 Marks Brand” is glaringly void of this one and only imperative of Jesus to describe and define his disciples. Odd how something as plain as that could be missed.

  121. Augustine: Jesus defined only one imperative that would “mark” believers, “that you love one another…by this they will know you are my disciples.”

    There have been a lot of words used to characterize the New Calvinist movement: arrogant, aggressive, militant, authoritarian … “love” never pops up as a descriptor.

  122. Nick Bulbeck: Though the Wee Frees (the United Free Church of Scotland) don’t even use that – they just have a loud laddie with perfect pitch who sits at the front and starts each verse. Which I really like – less, as they say, is more.

    Sounds like the description of the Frendlies in the ending scenes of Gordon Dickson’s “Soldier, Ask Not”.

    And didn’t Mohammed make a ruling on something similar in Islamic “Friday Prayers” (group worship/devotions)? There was such a controversy on what music to use in the gatherings that Mohammed ruled “no instruments, vocal only”?

  123. Muff Potter: Headless Unicorn Guy: Though WtH is talking politically, the same Us or Them (nothing else) dynamic is taking place in the American Christian realm.

    “I can see by your coat, my friend
    You’re from the other side
    There’s just one thing I got to know
    Can you tell me please, who won?”
    — David Crosby & Stephen Stills 1969 —

    And the polarization in American religion is slopping back over into (and supercharging) the Polticial — how else can you explain Culture War to the Death and both polarities of Trump Derangement Syndrome you see everywhere?

  124. Dave A A: In other news, HBC has been certified a Best Christian Workplace!

    “And THIS is how you get certified!” while waving a payola check?