Image by Ryan Ashton
“And in that fraction of a second before anything actually happened, Santino Corleone knew he was a dead man.” The Godfather
__________
Mancow still has the ability to shock.
Today I was shocked by the revelations of former shock jock, Mancow. I say former because he apparently wants to clean up his act. However, according to the wags of the internet, even with Mancow’s conversion in 2014, he is still on the spicy side. Radio Insider reports It’s Official: Mancow Returns To Chicago’s WLS Jan. 3. Maybe Chicago listeners could report in how he’s doing. For those who have not heard of him, Wikipedia does a decent overview of his life, albeit leaving out his conversion.
According the Patch in Mancow Muller Calls For Harvest Bible’s MacDonald To ‘Come Clean’:
Muller, whose full name is Matthew Erich Muller, is best known for his “shock jock” days in the late 1990s and early 200s, and for his run-ins with the Federal Communications Commission. According to the article, Muller has attended Harvest Bible Chapel since 2014, and has been MacDonald’s friend since 2016. MacDonald baptized him in the Jordan River in Israel.
Quick Israel Vignette which fits this:
I was quite disappointed in the *get baptized in the Jordan” deal. It has become somewhat of a tourist trap. There are a bunch of concessions around the area with multiple levels of seating. Think concrete. The area in which one may be baptized is small and there is a metal barrier to prevent people from wading in further. On our return to Israel from Jordan (we went to Mount Nebo and Petra-more on that later) our guide pointed out another area that was most likely the spot of Jesus’ baptism. Thankfully, there did not appear to be any concessions.
Mancow’s revelations:
I don’t know if Mancow understands how shocking his revelations are. Maybe you won’t find any of them loathsome but I did. Mancow: Speaking my truth to Harvest Bible Chapel’s Pastor James. I’m so grateful that a new friend in Chicagoland pointed this out to me. (Folks, never assume I see everything. I appreciate tips.)
I want to go through his lengthy article point by point, but I urge everyone to read the entire article. The highlighted quotes are Mancow’s own words.
1.”His preaching is good for the soul and good for the community.” “I believe Pastor James had a calling. It’s also why he was fascinated with me.”
Mancow clearly has appreciated the teaching gifts of MacDonald and seems to realize it is hard to be a celebrity pastor.
2. “But he also created THIS: a culture of authoritarianism, secrecy, intimidation, outlandish fundraising expectations, poor financial controls and debt.”
Wow! He sums up many problems in one sentence.
3. ” Like the two faces of Janus, he is a man of great complexities. Unfortunately, he and his caldron of yes men have lost their way.”
This is something we often discuss at TWW. Elders should not exist to be *yes* men. Frankly, that should humiliating to anyone who has accepted that role. My former pastor once said to me, “I’ve been a pastor for 28 years and the elders have only disagreed with me twice.” BFF elders are a really bad idea. It was my experience at that church that led to this blog 10 years ago as of March 2019.
4. “He has it set up so only Pastor James can fire Pastor James.” “How sick is that?”
He hits the nail on this one. Why didn’t the elders stop this? Did anyone even question it If so, did they have to leave the church? Or did the elders and assorted hangers-on let it go because they loved having a celebrity led mega-church of which they could say they were *leaders.* Good night! Shame on them!
5. “It was cultlike when Pastor James and elders instructed us to not listen to “outside noise” (meaning no news or blogs criticizing Pastor). And I didn’t.”
Mancow admits that he listened to this piece of advice. How many churches have instructed their people not to listen to blogs? The Georgia Baptist Convention passed a resolution against blogging. I wrote about it years ago in Georgia Baptist Convention- It’s the Sin, Stupid! Scroll down and you can read the entire document.
Slowly people are seeing the error of this *advice.* Many blogs today report the information that churches want you to overlook. Not only that but today’s Christian blogs often have the information before regular social media. Get it here, first!” 😉
6.” If they are lying, you must fight back!” I told him: “Get ahead of this thing!” I gave him the number of my lawyer.”
Mancow believed James MacDonald, who frequently called him and supposedly cried about the people who were *out to get him.* Slowly Mancow began to try to figure out why MacDonald was suing people whose only problem seemed to be “asking difficult questions.”
7. “He told me that simply by suing his detractors he would win because people would be afraid to talk about him for fear of a lawsuit.”
This is the statement that really got to me. MacDonald was not suing the bloggers because he mistakenly believed that he was standing up for the truth. He did it to intimidate people. If what Mancow is saying is true, then MacDonald MUST pay the legal fees for Roys and The Elephant Debt and hang his head in shame. This man does not belong anywhere near a pulpit, not now, not ever. He needs to go and hide out in some retirement community in Florida. Surely he’s got the money for living well.
8. “When he seemed shocked about this thing called “discovery” in a court case, the writing was on the wall. He would reveal nothing! The case was dropped immediately.”
This is one thing I don’t understand. I told the folks at TED that JM’s goose would be cooked when it came to discovery. I knew that this guy who keeps his finances under lock and key would be opposed to releasing it during discovery. That is exactly what happened. However, I can’t believe that a man like James MacDonald didn’t know about discovery. I’m hardly the brightest bulb at Ace Hardware but even I know about it.
So was he just stupid or…did he think that TED and Roys would fold at the mere mention of the word *lawsuit?* Thankfully, TED and Roys are made of sterner stuff and I admire all of them. (Well done!) I suspect that he thought they would go crying home to mama.
9. “Why is Harvest $42 million in debt, as the church has stated on its website?”
Well, isn’t that what started the Elephant’s Debt? Going back through the elders’ ridiculous statements, I found all sorts of *nothing to see here, move along* when it came to the debt. Here is one of their statements from October 2012. So, how many of the elders still think they will be debt free in one year? I’d say the odds are low.
10.” Pastor James and a fundraising campaign called Closer asked me to donate $3 million recently. This seemed rather tone-deaf to me because I was unemployed at the time.”
This part of the article is fascinating to read. It appears that MacDonald was putting the screws to Mancow and didn’t care about the financial situation that Mancow was facing.
11. “So why call the long-planned, paid vacation to Naples, Florida, a “sabbatical” and “a time of enforced self-reflection?”
Now this is interesting. Does Mancow knows something we don’t? It appears he is saying that this *sabbatical* was planned in advance. If this is so, then the elders and MacDonald are lying to their people and all of them need to step down and go back to Christianity 101. This reminds me of the Pete Wilson resignation.
12. “Will Harvest lift all nondisclosure agreements that employees are forced to sign and let them out of these prisons of silence and allow them to finally tell what actually has gone wrong?”
TWW firmly believes that NDAs should not be used by churches except to protect a counselee who receives counsel from the counselor. NDAs are simply a coverup that protect the guilty.
13. “The service I attended this past Sunday basically began with “The elders and Pastor James agree that …” Uh oh.”He’s still calling the shots from Naples just like Capone from prison,” whispered the guy next to me.”
Of course he is. His elders are simply consiglieri. Which reminds me of this quote from The Godfather:
“Fredo, you’re my older brother, and I love you. But don’t ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever.”
In the end, Mancow wants MacDonald to ‘fess up’ to the church, the elders to step down and a truly independent investigation to take place.
On the other hand, I do not think a truly independent investigation will ever take place with MacDonald as pastor. He needs to step down and fade into the sunset…after he pays the legal fees for Roys and TED. Repeat x3.
Now, switching over to John Secrest
John Secrest, former pastor of HBC Naples made it clear. They fired him because he wanted to leave the HBC *family.*
The title of the article in the Daily Herald makes it clear. Florida pastor: I was fired for suggesting my church leave the Harvest Bible network.
He told them he had asked the Harvest elders to reconsider their decision to let MacDonald continue a three-month preaching stint that began Jan. 6 in Naples, now that MacDonald is on leave.
He had also asked for the church to be released from its four-month-old affiliation with Harvest.
Secrest said he regretted not “standing firm in objections” he had raised when the church was considering the affiliation. He declined, in an interview, to say what those objections were.
He also said in the email he did not know at the time about criticism against the church or about a defamation suit the church was going to file in October against some of those critics
If this is true, any church thinking about joining this Mafia-like organization, needs to think again. Never forget, the Sicilian Mafia called themselves La Cosa Nostra as well as referring to themselves as *The Honored Society.* Just like those guys, it appears that Harvest Bible Chapel leadership and James MacDonald have a dismal understanding of the adjective *Honor* and an overactive view of *The Family.*
Secrest, bless his heart, had no idea what was required of a leader when joining the HBC *Family.* Perhaps a viewing of The Godfather is in order? (In case you haven’t noticed, I am a fan of The Godfather which was recently voted the best movie of all time.)
“Paulie sold out the old man, that stronz. I don’t want to see him no more. I want you to make that first thing on your list, understand?” – Sonny Corleone
I think Secrest should continue to cause waves to back into the church. My guess is that things are going downhill at a rapid pace and MacDonald is on his way out. The odds are in his favor.
Lets end on this note: $$$$$$$$$
Mancow said:
Parishioners should stop giving their hard-earned money because Harvest will not change until we stop funding this madness
In the Secrest article, the following point was made:
According to a 2015 report by the Hartford Institute for Religion Research, megachurches were more likely to suffer loss of donations when there was conflict in the church, compared to smaller churches.
Some denominations, such as the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, offer programs to help any of their congregations that lose a longtime senior pastor hire an interim pastor and get through the transition to a permanent replacement.
“I would very much think they (Harvest) would bring in some interim to heal, and to find someone else good for the church,” Scudder said
Maybe HBC, to quiet the hoopla, will make Secrest “an offer he can’t refuse? ” In the meantime, it is time for the real men and women of HBC to step up to the plate to do and be what the church needs. Surely there are some people with courage.
First?
This really is shocking news all of this. It really wouldn’t surprise me if James MacDonald’s intent for suing TED and Julie Roy was intimidation of this group and to make them an example to intimidate others. How sad and what reproach all of these actions of MacDonald and his yes men elders are bringing to the body of Christ.
Peter did warn that
“2 Many will follow their unrestrained ways, and the way of truth will be blasphemed because of them. 3 They will exploit you in their greed with deceptive words. Their condemnation, pronounced long ago, is not idle, and their destruction does not sleep.” 2 Peter 2: 2-4
before I read this, I have to say that “Mancow and Secrest” sounds like a morning radio show…
“It appears he is saying that this *sabbatical* was planned in advance.”
Somewhere in the comment stream in one of the blog pieces (here or elsewhere), I recall someone saying that JMac was previously scheduled to do a 3-month preaching stint in Naples. Perhaps one of the HBC-Naples folks following TWW can comment in this regard, that JMac had been on the church calendar before things broke loose in Chicago. If so, that would not be a “sabbatical” in the true sense of the word (paid leave away from the grind for study and reflection).
“In the end, Mancow wants MacDonald to ‘fess up’ to the church, the elders to step down and a truly independent investigation to take place.”
A truly independent third-party investigation/audit is not paid by the organization being investigated/audited.
“Perhaps a viewing of The Godfather is in order?” (Dee)
Not necessary for me. I seem to recall that JMac admitted to taking shots at pictures of elders and their wives with a pellet pistol and slashing the picture of another with a knife. How pastoral is that?! And there will be people still going to HBC campuses on Sunday. How mega-maniac is that?!
“Mancow said: Parishioners should stop giving their hard-earned money because Harvest will not change until we stop funding this madness”
Actors would have no stage if they didn’t have an audience willing to buy tickets. Is the Vertical Band really that good?! JMac’s life-changing sermons didn’t appear to change him. I suppose he might have started out right in ministry (I don’t know), but he is done now; he just hasn’t quit yet.
Drawing TED wives into the lawsuit was intended to scare them into silence. This has been another sad mega story about control, manipulation and intimidation. It’s a pulpit sickness that infects many, a form of abuse, un-Christian behavior, disqualifying a man from ministry.
Some of you remember my calls for action here months ago…
Julie Roys was seeking comment on the cover up of a youth pastor charged with child sexual exploitation.
Julie had approached Harvest for comment.
The lawsuit was filed the day before the pastor turned himself in.
It was dropped as soon as the judge ruled discovery documents would not be sealed.
Guess what was included in those documents?
Text and email threads proving Landon Macdonald along with executive leaders knew they had a a pedophile pastor targeting kids at multiple campuses back in Jan 18
Problem is, Harvest did not warn the parents across all campuses in Jan instead opting to send a vague email saying youth pastor was fired but would continue to worship at aurora campus as the church cared for him.
Cover up to protect the brand over child safety…
thats what the lawsuit sought to supress.
@biblicaljustice on twitter breaks it down.
I just want to say.
It sucks when you know whats going on and you have to wait for the rest of the world to catch up…Especially when child safety is involved
I hope that Secrest gets as far away from HBC as possible. Maybe he can get his old job at American Idol back.
Ken P. :
Too funny! The other irony is the elder named “Ananias”. Yikes!
Forget letting JMac go to a retirement community in Florida. Ship him back to and we’ll assign him a cushy church-planting gig in Tuktoyuktuk with complementary dog-team for his pastoral visitations.
Here is a link to Instagram dated September 16,2018 announcing that James MacDonald would be preaching in FL from January – March: https://www.instagram.com/p/BnynZENFzPO/ I am totally disgusted with this attempt to spin that FL was going to be a Sabbatical. It had already been planned. MacDonald needs a leave of absence not a sabbatical. If he is disqualified to preach in Chicago, he is disqualified to preach in FL. He can’t continue to put a “religious” spin on these antics. I know a great many pastors and Christian workers who sacrifice much for God’s Kingdom and the Church which belongs to Jesus. They faithfully oversee His Church which He purchased with His blood and are undershepherds who understand that they will have to give an account to the Chief Shepherd one day on how they handled His flock (1 Peter 5:1-4). James MacDonald is bringing a reproach on our Lord and is discrediting those who faithfully serve.
MOD: Cleaned up the link. GBTC
https://www.instagram.com/p/BnynZENFzPO/ I think this answers your question in point 11. Yes, he was planning on being in Naples.
MOD: Cleaned up the link. GBTC
And I can only keep wondering, ‘Is that exactly what he is trying to do?’Arrogance, stupidity or malice?
Or all of the above and more.
LOL!
Max,
It was planned months ago and announced in Naples September 16, 2018.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BnynZENFzPO/?utm_source=ig_embed
There have also been comments that MacDonald was given a house to live in during his time in Naples. I don’t know if that is true or not, but it makes sense given that one of the two non staff Naples elders is a builder.
I just posted this on TED comments: someone has created two fake twitter accounts – madcowmuller and reachjulieroys_. The fake accounts deliberately mimic mancowmuller’s and reachjulieroy’s accounts.
Which MacDonald are we betting on? Take your screenshots now.
funyun,
Some of the fake Tweets seem very similar to the comments left by a dissenter on Mancow’s Daily Herald piece.
Julie’s an investigative journalist. It would be fun for her to request IP records to investigate someone deliberately impersonating her online. That’s a crime.
I swear this whole MacDonald and HBC imbroglio sounds more and more like a Scorsese dago-mob flick complete with a boss and a crew of good-fellas.
I was wondering how long before someone noticed that. I would be neurotic if I had that name.
Nathan Priddis,
The two elders at Naples have the surnames Ananias and Stonebreaker. That’s for real. But it reads like something from a JK Rowling’s novel ie “Draco and Lucius Malfoy”
Tim W Callaway,
Aw, come on ……. don’t do that to the dogs. Just give JMac a pair of complementary snow shoes.
Don Jones,
He doesn’t even need a leave of absence.
He just needs to leave, period.
GMFS
ION: Sport
At the time of writing, the Lassies’ Singles final is due to start in a few minutes at the Rod Laver Arena. AWWBA, it’s between Naomi Osaka and Petra Kvitova. Unusually for a final, the two have never played each other before.
It’s one of those tricky ones in which I kind of want both of them to win. Osaka’s US open triumph last year was marred by unfair boos fae the crowd following an argument between Serena and the umpire (bit disappointed in Serena there TBH). So I think she deserves a properly recognised Slam win. OTOH, Kvitova is coming back from a really nasty injury sustained when she was attacked by a knife-wielding burglar in her home. I’m narrowly supporting Kvitova. The Laddies’ Final is tomorrow, of course; I’m definitely supporting Rafa there.
Cricket: I need more coffee before I can cover this, but suffice to say that rather than focus on England’s woeful display, I’m going to dwell on a very fine West Indian performance. I need to look up some records first.
IHTIH
At last someone not on the payroll willing to the truth! Now we know what many guessed-the lawsuit was meant only to intimidate.
Revealing- the tactics used to keep people in the dark and then silence them. Shameless (but not surprising) how mcDonald cozied up to the famous Mancow and used him to promote the brand esp at the Act Like Men 2017 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ3oi-uXUek) Then tried to fleece him starting at 3 million by using scare tactics ie “I’ll be blessed but YOU won’t cause you didn’t give.” Wow.
And the final straw being told by local leaders not to come back. Much respect for Mancow -speaking up once he finally saw and comprehended the real situation.
Please forgive me for posting this here, I needed to vent a bit, and maybe some kind thoughts/input. In my profession one of the hardest things to deal with is illness and death. I have had to explain it as best I can to so many young folks with developmental disabilities and be there for parents who lose their children, and children usually adults who lose their parents. I usually, 99.9999999% of the time, on a personal level, deal with this alone and very very rarely bring it up online. In the real world I never bring it up one deals with it and one moves on. I add that because my view is not the healthiest way to deal with such situations ie seeking advice on better ways to handle it.
Over Christmas holiday I intervened in a situation where the parent of a young person I work with had fallen and could not get up. I was able to get her up, get her adult child into a new group home and get her into the hospital in a few hours with some help. She went down hill very quickly and is not expected to make it. I just found that out today. I knew it was coming after so many times one just gets a “feel” for such events. I am a bit more involved ie taking care of her place involved in some financial issues helping her out etc.
Her adult child asked me today, “where’s my mother?” He is the most inoffensive human being I have ever known and I have worked with him for decades. It takes little steps in these situations and is such a dance to give information yet not crush the person. Some just don’t have the filtering or cognitive tools needed to process such overwhelming surety as death. Another young person just reported being healthy after dealing with life threatening illness and just losing her parent after a very long painful and debilitating fight with nothing but utter constant and unrelenting pain. Personally it is hard, it should not be and one should move along, water off a ducks back, suck it up, stop whining, deal with it etc. Honestly that is my personal experience in the faith. Not from everyone but from a significant minority that held sway over my soul for so long. I hold myself alone to blame for that, no one else.
All that aside I never understand why God allows such events, I am not angry with God and I know we all have it coming because of our utter fall in Adam and all that. Well actually I don’t get that but that is another entire book. I just hate seeing people hurt, I so quickly go into fix it mode or comfort mode etc. I have not been a faithful Christian, at times I wonder if I ever really knew God because of my many non orthodox doctrinal positions but I do know this, it is right and good to stand with those that need someone to stand with them. To walk the extra mile to give the cloak etc. I have been so unfaithful in so much I just want to be faithful in that for these fine people God has seen to gift such as myself with. It is undeserved but greatly appreciated.
Thanks for letting me share. I really do appreciate it. posted under my alternative nick for any potential privacy issues though I was quite vague I guess folks understand that.
Who’s satanic to the core now!!!
Folks at HBC have no voting privileges, so their only recourse at this point is to vote with their walllets and their feet!
There has got to be other places to worship in Chicago! Even though MacDonald is currently out of the picture in Illinois, the shameful, spineless ‘elder board’ (JMac’s yes-men/henchmen) are still there and kicking. Their disgusting treatment of Secrest is reprehensible and they need to go away as well. It would suit me just fine for all of them to take a nice, long ‘sabbatical’…on a hog farm…in August!
Max, this is a fantastic observation! Maybe he should’ve watched some of his own sermons on YouTube!
The more I read of the HBC dumpster fire, and having just finished watching The Godfather Trilogy, the more JM & HBC look like a wannabe bloodless crime family.
As one of the Dons said, ” Finance is a gun, politics is knowing when to pull the trigger.”
I see more about those two subjects than I see about Christ in them.
This was a recent Twitter post and I think is right on. MacDonald can’t see his sin due to his own narcissism. What is sad is that so many leaders around him who should see this have remained silent and enabled MacDonald. This is similar to those who have and are still enabling C.J. Mahaney.
It is sad how more leaders than you think don’t practice what they teach and even demand of others. James in the bible called this hearers but not doers of the word.
Steve240,
I tend to view the word ‘narcissist’ as simply a glorified term for totally depraved (the biblical definition – see Romans 1). When an individual makes choices to serve their flesh, they become increasingly selfish and addicted to their own pleasure. It’s a ‘disease’ in the same manner any sin is a disease. A stubborn decision to remain on the wrong path, of making self-centered choices is going to lead to what? Someone who no longer even thinks of others, or remembers that they matter.
I think we are a little too easy on folks, and at risk, when we view ‘Narcissism’ as a mental condition that afflicts a select few random individuals. Sure, the chemicals and dopamine that effect our brains are real, but they most often derive from our own individual choices. Anyone can become a narcissist, by becoming addicted to serving self, which is maybe why this so commonly plagues those who are on the receiving end of a great deal of praise, adoration, etc. – like charismatic leaders.
Well, there is Willow Creek … no, wait a minute! Perhaps, a Sovereign Grace church in the area … no, wait a minute! Or one of Driscoll’s Acts 29 churches … no wait a minute! Good grief, Charlie Brown!!
I figure they will still beam him in from Naples on the big screen at all the HBC campuses each Sunday.
I’m sorry but I really must object to the use of the term “dago” in your comment. It’s disrespectful; derogatory words such as these should have no place in this or any other blog
TS00,
I have seen more than one sincere, talented leader of men become a controlling, self-absorbed narcissist, addicted to his own dopamine, after being on the receiving end of ceaseless admiration and adulation. His every word is received with breathless anticipation, his opinion is like law and he is treated to the best seat, best food, praise and honor. Few can resist such a never-ending head rush. I have seen humble, capable, talented men turned into narcissistic tyrants before my very eyes.
Max,
Good point…how very sad! Maybe some of the ‘dones’ burned by these churches should start their own ‘recovery churches!’ I’m sure there are many there that are disillusioned and distressed and in need of a soft place to land.
Max,
Yep. Even the good ol’ corner First Baptist Church Ma and Pa went to has become ‘Revelation’ or some cool name, and has a trendy wanna-be rock star worship leader and a hip, wanna-be James MacDonald pastor.
We talk about the coming ‘end’ of The Church. I sorta thing we’ve already lived through it; now we have to figure out what to do with its two-headed progeny.
All I know is, that whole “vertical church” concept is starting to look awfully horizontal…
ION: Cricket
TWW continues to be the go-to site for biblical, God-honouring, gospel cricketing news.
So, a bit of chapeau for two tremendous performances with the bat from the Windies yesterday. Firstly, 116 from wicketkeeper Shane Dowrich; and secondly, a remarkable captain’s innings of 202 from Jason Holder; both were not out when Holder declared with the Windies on 415-6.
The two of them took the Windies on from 120-6
Their partnership of 295 was the 3rd-highest for the 7th wicket in Test history
Holder’s score was the third highest in Test history for a no. 8 batsman
As there’s ample time left in the match, and a Windies win is a formality, I don’t really know why Holder didn’t bat on; he surely could have had a pop at both records. Only 50 more runs needed in each case.
So where can I go? Reminds me of a hymn we used to sing in the good ‘ole days of SBC life before cool church happened, with its invasion of spiky hair, tight pants, espresso coffee, loud music, deep deception, and shallow sermons.
“Where could I go oh where could I go
Seeking the refuge for my soul
Needing a friend to save me in the end
Won’t you tell me
Where could I go but to the Lord”
What saddens and angers me, more than anything, is the wasted opportunity. There’s no denying JMac’s ability to deliver dynamic, engaging sermons. Most pastors would give their eyeteeth to have that kind of presence and talent. Most of the time (at least until recently), the theology was pretty solid, albeit open to debate on some of the finer points. He took a firm stand on hot-button social issues of the day. Whether the style of music and songs was to one’s own liking, at least they didn’t contain those creepy “Jesus-Baby” quasi-romance lyrics that are so common in new Christian songs. And the really big events, like Good Friday-Easter weekend 2018 at Sears Arena, were truly outstanding. My own daughter accepted Christ on that Easter Day service. Compared to so many rainbow-drenched “churches” in and around Chicago, in which the deity and lordship of Jesus aren’t even acknowledged, it’s not hard to understand why HBC became a megachurch.
And yet, despite (or perhaps because of) all that, look what the MacDonalds have done with the talents and blessings the Lord has given them. They’ve arrogated power that wasn’t theirs to have, they’ve driven the church hopelessly into debt and enriched themselves at the expense of good works, and they’ve systematically abused anyone who stood in their way.
I do hope they can somehow reach a true repentance, and not just be sorry they got caught.
Molly245,
Well said, Molly. Thanks for speaking the truth.
I find it interesting that both Mancow and Secrest have goatee facial hair just like MacDonald. Of course, JMac’s is more pronounced, with a gray beard highlighted by his black leather jacket and polished head. In the golden days of Driscoll’s New Calvinist run, all the young reformers had spiky hair just like the potty-mouth … except for the hardcore ones who sported Calvin beards and “Jonathan Edwards is My Homeboy” T-Shirts. Is this idol worship or what? Whatever happened to Jesus?
And I would add “… poor testimony to a lost world.” Whenever a minister and a ministry fail, all believers should agonize. Lost opportunities to reach into the darkness with light in the life of some poor struggling person may never come again. By all accounts, MacDonald started out right … apparently the limelight, power, and money tripped him up … only God can judge the heart, while we are left examining the fruit. Bottom-line: the Kingdom of God deserves our best. When our walk drifts and we see the writing on the wall, we need to read it, pause and reflect, adjust our walk or stop. MacDonald keeps moving and that is a mistake.
Max,
I tend to agree with you re: potty mouth and t-shirt message. Their pulpit messages are also disappointing. Otherwise, how they dress, hairstyle, and facial hair is a non issue imho.
Do you view this as a good thing or a bad thing, in that setting? Please say more, as I’d like to understand.
My general thought (knowing little about HBC): a firm stand can give clarity, but it can silence people who disagree, who have relatives in the wrong camp, who don’t understand, or who want to explore the pros and cons. It can promote shallowness and the “you’re going to hell” mentality. A lot of preachers and bloggers enrich themselves by taking a firm stand against yoga pants, or in favor of the arranged marriage of teenagers.
That’s certainly happening in my area. Some just have a new name, while others have joined networks.
Megas introduce Walmart-style competition, enticing a certain percentage of churchgoers to try something new in a huge, impressive venue. This is enough to threaten and close some worthy corner churches. Christianity always needs renewal, but we seem to be developing a marketplace based on entertainment and contracts—quite different from the energy and struggles in Acts and the Pauline letters.
Beautiful words that probably apply to us all at one time or another.
Objection duly noted and I apologize.
It was never meant to be derogatory, but simply a cultural appellation used to describe a particular movie genre.
What we need our friends, too. Friends that are peers and not subordinates, and who are willing to tell us the truth about what we’re doing and where we’re heading. As I said so many times during the Driscoll fiasco, does this man have no friends? Where is his wife in all this?
roebuck,
What we need ARE friends…
Max: And I would add “… poor testimony to a lost world.”
Absolutely. That’s what I meant by “wasted opportunity.”
Makes me think of all the chances I’ve had to witness to someone, even just by demonstrating Christlike behavior or a well-timed message of love, and blew it.
God forgive me, and help me step up my game.
Friend: “Do you view this as a good thing or a bad thing, in that setting? Please say more, as I’d like to understand.”
In this context, it was a good thing. JMac would not hesitate to speak out against big things like abortion, sexual immorality, etc. But he always managed to strike a good balance between speaking the truth, and doing it in love. (At least on stage, I don’t know what he was like behind closed doors.)
It’s all too easy for pastors, desiring to avoid controversy, to be inoffensive to the point where they never actually take a stand on anything. But the Cross IS offensive. It’s an unequivocal reminder that we are a mess and need a Savior. It’s why most people don’t mind if you talk about a nebulous, ecumenical God, but as soon as you say the name “Jesus” they stiffen up.
Guess the same cussedness that allowed JMac to take a stand against many of the sins of our world, also caused him to be a colossal bully when running a church.
incogneto: “…maybe some kind thoughts/input”
1. Speaking as a brain cancer doctor (and wiping tears from my eyes while writing this), God bless you for helping those in need. The Kingdom of Heaven is made of people like you.
2. Being advised to “shake it off,” etc. in the face of tragedy is unbiblical. During his ministry on earth, Jesus was as tough as nails when he had to be, but he also had a tender heart, wept for the suffering, and absolutely LOVED kids. Even to this day, when someone is suffering, when they are crying, Jesus is suffering and crying with them. Only He has a big enough heart for the whole world.
3. So why does all this happen? That’s a question at least as old as the oldest book of the Bible, Job. The best I can figure out, what keeps me going in my profession where bad news is the norm, is the assurance that God has such a different perspective, He knows the suffering of the innocent is only for a brief speck of time in the face of Eternity. In the end, He will make all of this evil pass away like a forgotten memory. As unnerving as Revelation can be, IMO the most beautiful chapter of the Bible is Revelation 21. Also read I Corinthians 13:12. We were meant to hear and cling to such words, for they are God’s gift to us right now–His promise to us that, as the Creator of the Universe, we still matter to Him.
4. To this sweet innocent soul who wants to know where his mother is, tell him that the Good Lord is calling her home, to her REAL home. He won’t be able to see his mom for quite awhile, but someday God will call him home too, and they will be reunited. He’ll be sad and miss her, but God will comfort him in ways he’ll never realize.
May God fill you with His peace, the kind that the world cannot understand.
exharvestmember,
Thank you.
YOU RACIST!*
Your apology is not sufficient regardless of the context of your statement. You should have known better.
No hosting the Oscars for you!
* the entire reply is sarcasm.
I would add to exharvestmember’s wise words: We can keep loving people who have died. Love never dies.
You know this better than I, but surviving children can find great comfort in drawing pictures, telling stories, going to a special place they shared with the person who died, eating a favorite food they enjoyed together, framing photos, and so on.
Max,
“Actors would have no stage if they didn’t have an audience willing to buy tickets. Is the Vertical Band really that good?!”
+++++++++++++++++++
i’ve run across so many comments from christians who basically say
“it’s good for me and mine.
you say our leaders are dishonest? corrupt? cover-up their errors and crimes and hide? cover up their friends’ crimes, too?
yeah, i looked at the evidence once, but you see i have too much to lose. the music, the atmosphere, the friends… it’s really enjoyable and i get so much out of it.
and since it’s about God, it gives me a sense of purpose. that’s a really good feeling.
so now when i hear about these things, i don’t even bother with the evidence. i just close my eyes. much easier that way.
and the bonus is i don’t have to worry about the sin of gossip and being judgemental. i keep myself pure that way.
yeah, i’m sorry if people were hurt, and i suppose in theory leaders shouldn’t commit crimes, but i have myself and my family to think of.
and this leader is so dynamic. just love ’em.”
elastigirl,
“…but you see i have too much to lose.”
+++++++++++++
the christian church enterprise. doing what is right and honest has its limits — everyone has too much to lose.
boy, that sure sounds like Jesus. 😐
leaders have too much money, power, and personal significance wrapped up in the enterprise.
parishioners have too much fun and personal gratification wrapped up in the enterprise.
too much to give up, let alone jeopardize.
Interesting discussion and viewpoints.
Both are good points. I am sure both were born with and how they were raised made them more self centered and further on the spectrum towards being a narcissistic. It still is a choice. They also say that being narcissistic is an asset for certain occupations.
I am also sure that with MacDonald his being around so many people looking up to them and being surrounded with a group of leaders that don’t question him all the while attracting a large crowd to hear him built up his ego and makes them get too large of an importance of self. Maybe that was why God wouldn’t take away that thorn in flesh that the Apostle Paul had. Without that thorn maybe Paul would have had too much of an ego.
The problem is people concentrate on talent in speaking and delivering “life changing” messages. Who can manage 52 life-changing messages a year (or 104 if you count Wed eve)? I don’t want my life changed that much, I want some stability, I was gradual, legitimate growth that you only get by being in regular contact with other lovers of Jesus, based on relationships that are organic, not arranged by some mega church shuffling people into small groups or whatever they call them.
We are concentrating on all the wrong things. Don’t we care what Paul said about how he wasn’t a talented speaker? You might recall Moses said the same of himself. You might recall the talented speakers who made the big bucks and had the smooth words—the “life changing crowd”—were the superapostles whom Paul excoriated in 2 Cor 11.
MacDonald didn’t waste all this great talent (assuming he has it, as a professional speaker who’s been around a bit, I never cease to be amazed how poor these revered megachurch speaking “talents” generally are—I think people just brainwash themselves into thinking they’re hearing something great, the power of suggestion is a remarkable thing), whatever talents he had are pretty much meaningless. The thing that counts is love and joy and peace, patience, kindness, goodness, self-control—that stuff. That talent thing is a load of worthless garbage.
We’ve got it all wrong. No wonder we get things so backwards and get abused.
Today, I read the article Lowlandseer linked to recently, published by the gospel coalition, entitled
How do churches end up with domineering bullies for pastors?. (The article can be viewed here.) By coincidence, I also read recently an article published by the International Vampire High Council entitledHow do mortals end up with bit-marks in their necks?. (That article can’t be viewed, because I made it up.)Nick Bulbeck
Oops – I hit Post Comment when I actually meant to change tabs on Safari to re-start Holst’s The Planets.
Anyway, what I meant was it’s rich of TGC to decry the rise of bullying church CEO’s when they have done so much to marginalise the very qualities whereof LawProf spake. Instead, the heart and soul of what they stand for is doctrinal distinctives. A domineering bully in the pulpit is unfortunate, but as long as his doctrine ticks a handful of Gospel™Biblical™ boxes, his lack of spiritual fruit is irrelevant. The only “fruit” that counts is precisely the set of economic measures to which the TGC article refers. “Yes, but look at the fruit!” is the perennial enabler for a godless thug who pulls a crowd.
Better a godless thug than a woman, after all.
Agreed on TGC. Seems like the article could’ve been quite short.
………………………………………………………………
“How do churches end up with domineering bullies for pastors?”
By hiring pastors affiliated with organizations such as us, The Gospel Coalition.
The end.
Law Prof,
I agree that, in today’s church, a commanding presence at the pulpit is overvalued by many churches relative to other pastoral virtues. (Especially when said church is drowning in debt and needs to keep fannies in the seats.) However, let’s not lurch in the opposite direction too far, because Paul did speak of each member of the Body of Christ having different talents and, therefore, being better suited for some roles over others.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with thinking that strong communication is a necessity in a head pastor, any more than believing a strong arm is essential in an NFL quarterback. But neither are sufficient for effectiveness in their respective professions.
Furthermore, one need not deliver “life-changing” sermons every week to be a dynamic pastor. It’s a bit of a straw man argument to suggest otherwise. Just as each arm curl or mile run might not be memorable by themselves, over time they add up to a healthy body. So it is with regularly attending a vibrant church and the soul.
Think of it this way: from whom did you really learn in school? The dry, monotone teacher? Or the one who made the subject matter come alive? Even if they were teaching from the same textbook?
exharvestmember,
Thank you for that comment. I still attend Harvest and am a long time member. I have been aware of problems since Ted first came out. James has a great gift for bringing Gods Word, unfortunately he wasn’t under the accountability he should have been for years, and his propensity for certain sins, which we all have , became his downfall. Harvest was a great church, sorry but I have listened to more of James sermons and read more on these blogs in the past 5 years than 99% of you on here. I am not defending him, I believe at this point James, the Elders and the staff need to confess before the Church, repent sincerely and resign. If he chooses to put himself under Church discipline, then do so but he remains out of the Pulpit and has no say in Church matters. He also needs to make financial restitution. The Elders who supported this should be gone. Harvest is more than the handful at the top, it is God honoring families and people who truly love the Lord and live that out each day of their lives. I have read comments about burning this Church to the ground, Harvest was a cult etc. Sorry but I dont share your opinions. It is not a cult, I dont and never have worshipped James and I think I can speak for the Majority at Harvest. We worship the Lord Jesus Christ and him alone. There have been many things over the years I have disagreed with. No church is perfect, dont tell me I’m wrong, Ive been a believer for 50years and Ive been in other Church’s who had similar problems. We are human, with a bent towards despicable things. I know my heart can be truly horrible at times. I love James as a brother but I am angry, and disappointed in him. And I fear at this point God has blinded him to the truth . But I pray God pursues him and brings him to his knees, God thought David was worth it after the horrific sins he committed, is James any less worthy of Gods grace and mercy. Aren’t we all?
Law Prof,
“The problem is people concentrate on talent in speaking and delivering “life changing” messages. Who can manage 52 life-changing messages a year (or 104 if you count Wed eve)? I don’t want my life changed that much, I want some stability, I was gradual, legitimate growth ”
+++++++++++++++++++++
me, too.
but its’ not exciting, not glamorous… doesn’t sell well.
at least, it doesn’t sell well enough to pay multiple handsome salaries, expensive & spiffy building, and of course the insurance policies.
so, therefore, professional christians come up with all these shiny how-to programs. they pepper with topical verses, and slap on the words “gospel-” and “godly” for market value.
as far as self-improvement goes, there are much, much better ideas and strategies elsewhere.
And many people don’t realize that most of these charismatic pastors do not write their own sermons or books. They have sermon services or ghost writers. Just because they have charisma does not mean they know the Word of God. That “life changing message” was probably written by someone who’s never stepped foot in their church.
Just because someone can deliver a good message doesn’t mean that message came from their heart.
Just pointing out common New Calvinist tribal characteristics … sort of like, you will know them by their ESV Bibles (not always the case, of course).
They were probably all worried that he would break their nose if they tried to tell him the truth in love. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kayRXtITyw
That’s really important to think about – who is to say that anything JMac preaches is from his own heart? Kinda like believing everything one hears in a presidential speech – which was written by paid talent, with maybe the instruction to ‘Make me look very serious and compassionate’ or what have you.
incogneto,
I’m very sorry. Is this your ‘job’? How can concerned people help?
This has always seemed strange to me … a man who can live like hell but still bring folks to heaven. A talent of communication doesn’t necessarily equal a gift from God, but the spoken Word still has power even though the speaker might not heed it himself.
Isn’t being a “colossal bully” an important sin to take a stand against?
Nick Bulbeck,
Keep it to yourself please. We don’t see it live here unless we’re up in the middle of the night. And I’m three hours further out than Dee. 🙂
Some of those TGC guys would also be horrified to know that a lot of sermon writers are women. I just looked at one service that markets to that group, and all of their curriculum and writing staff were women. One I knew from seminary.
I laughed. For a group that doesn’t think women should be visible, they sure don’t have a clue who is really writing those fancy sermons they’re all so obsessed with.
I understand some of what you are saying but how can you say that “God has blinded him (MacDonald) to the truth.” I don’t think it is God blinding MacDonald but MacDonald’s own arrogance along with other leaders that won’t tell MacDonald the truth.
Doesn’t surprise me a bit.
Patriot134,
Who is fit to stay and be part of the recovery?
Who can we pray for.
Muff Potter,
Didn’t bother me a bit and I am one. Some family used the term among themselves but it was just a cultural connotation.
We can pray for any and all. Anyone is eligible to recover. Fitness to facilitate or lead a recovery is a different matter. Maybe what’s needed is a truth and reconciliation process, in which all are fully heard.
Steve240,
Of course, the Bible recounts times where God does blind people to the truth—but, to your point, it’s always in the context of the person being arrogant and God deciding to make an example of them.
Seems to me it the main thing Jesus always seemed to be going after. He relentlessly went after the bullies of the day, His arguments against them were publicly humiliating and absolutely devastating.
Friend,
Of course.
I’d just like to hear from a current member, who they think could be part of the leadership fix.
And then pray for those named specifically.
TED confirmed yesterday that Trei Tatum has resigned from the XLT. Sunday should be interesting. Also, it’s now clear that HBC was scouting for a Florida location and available congregation to be fully confiscated by Jan. 2019.
Big Brother’s face, ten meters tall on all telescreens.
SEE HIS FACE! HEAR HIS VOICE! LONG LIVE BIG BROTHER!
“But such is the lure of the limelight, it sweetly
Takes hold of the mind of its host…”
— Ponyphonic, “Lullaby for a Princess”, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7PQ9IO-7fU
exharvestmember,
Your comments about God and human suffering are genuine and helpful. I respect the strength that sustains you in a line of work “where bad news is the norm” – “the assurance that God has such a different perspective, He knows the suffering of the innocent is only for a brief speck of time in the face of Eternity.”
So many (including leaders in the Christian arena) are so sick in the soul without realizing it. Beyond healing of the body, Jesus is also the great physician of the soul. Would you say that when we invite Jesus to purify our heart and infuse genuine holiness in our life, He will bring healing to our eternal soul?
Now about the sickness of the mega-churches:
Through a seemingly good process, under the supervision of an Independent Advisory Group, Willow Creek Church has just installed a brand new Board of 9 Elders who are more representative of the composition of the whole church. Many of these seem to have specific qualities that help them function as spiritual leaders. I hope and pray God will cleanse the church and revive this body of Christ in the days ahead.
Can something similar happen at Harvest Bible Chapel? The people almost have to demand it before real change can even begin to take place. May God take charge of the process in the days and months and years ahead inside a place that bears His name.
Given the wrong trend of church development today, we seem to be missing the examples and teachings of such disciples as James Hudson Taylor, Oswald Chambers, John Sung, Amy Carmichael and many other unsung missionaries who gave their lives in order to gain life in Christ.
james,
“Who is fit to stay and be part of the recovery?”
++++++++++++++++
i have doubts something this big can recover with integrity. this much power and revenue are just too tempting and compromising.
since “God” is involved, anything can be rationalized (believe it or not. example: “We are so big and wonderful we are vital to God’s kingdom. We are too big to fail. We can therefore justify this course of action [that is dishonest, exploitative, fraudulent, and destroys people]. We can even spin verses to make it biblical.”)
when there is too much to lose, what is ethically responsible is sacrificed instead.
when the something exists in the name of God and Jesus, this is simply unacceptable.
when the something exists in the name of God and Jesus, the ends should never justify the means that are unethical, cruel, irresponsible, dishonest, manipulative, illegal,… there are more descriptors i’ve observed in professional christians that i could use.
birdoftheair,
“Given the wrong trend of church development today, we seem to be missing the examples and teachings of such disciples as James Hudson Taylor, Oswald Chambers, John Sung, Amy Carmichael and many other unsung missionaries who gave their lives in order to gain life in Christ.”
++++++++++++++++
professional christians by definition expect a salary in a venue where size does matter: it means they have succeeded (as well as being able to increase their wages).
none of which will happen if they give their lives in order to gain life in Christ, of course.
elastigirl,
Perhaps, but there is still a long road to ruin or recovery ahead and leadership needs to be installed to transition or wind down.
Im asking who current Harvest Members see as fit.. They will need support and I’d like to pray for them.
Rumors are swirling that James and family are trying to negotiate severance pay and ownership of walk in the word..
Strong men are needed to negotiate the end of James tenure without adding insult to injury
The Church has alot of debt..
MacDonald may be down in Florida but everyone knows MacDonald is still in power and calling the shots. As long as MacDonald is in power like this I am sure even leaders who know MacDonald is wrong are intimidated from speaking up. I am sure it was MacDonald who fired the Naples FL pastor when this pastor dared to speak out against MacDonald wanting the Naples church to leave the fold.
You also have MacDonald’s two sons on the board and one knows how that goes. I am sure that of all the people they could have chosen to be on staff that MacDonald’s sons were the most qualified. 😉
Generally when you see nepotism like this it is a bad sign. That was one of the problems that Sovereign Grace Churches had.
You realize that you can pray generally and quite specifically without knowing names? Not sure why the repeated call for the naming of names? As you reminded us, you once were calling most urgently for . . . something else. I cannot help but see red flags whenever people insist we MUST do XYZ. Call it my ‘bully reflex’. Loyally following the ‘must’ do list of James MacDonald is what created this mess.
TS00,
The tears worked on Mancow, until James started asking for too much money. “Why don’t you sell your guitar collection and give the money to the church?” “Why don’t you buy a house in Naples, and leave it to the church?” I’m sure JMac is going to leave his mansion and Harley to the church . . .
You are correct that God will blind people to the truth at some point. 2 Thes 2:11 is one passage that indicates this.
11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
I wouldn’t normally quote the whole statement but Elastigirl posted some really good comments.
I do wonder if Harvest will be able to make changes quick enough to stop an implosion here. The longer the needed change in leadership and required actions are postponed the harder it is I am sure for them to dig out of this whole.
I appears like contributions are starting to drop. If nothing else that may create a financial hole that Harvest won’t be able to recover from. It might be a good think though for Harvest to implode if they don’t take proper action soon.
I don’t understand theconcept of a pastor paying for a sermon from a sermon writer. Isn’t that the JOB of a pastor??? Why are they being paid to pastor if they buy a sermon????? I don’t get it. What does a pastor that buys a sermon DO all week?????
Abigail,
Mine did a lot of fishing.
So what happens if the believer in Jesus Christ, believes that Jesus has supreme authority over all things as in Matthew 28:18? So what happens when you believe that a pastor, a minister, a reverend, a priest, a pope, an elder or deacon/deaconess, or whatever “leadership/authoritarian title” an individual acquires in this life, has absolutely no authority over your life as a believer in Christ, alone, for salvation, in fellowshipping with the saints outside of organized top-down theologically funded churchianity?
When the individual seeks authority and desires the worship of people for themselves, the James MacDonald outcome is inevitable. Those who desire to “lead” and work for years and years “posturing themselves for leadership,” ie. “sucking up to the right people in order to receive the “vote of the congregation” or the “calling from the church board committee” are in fact, practicing the Nicolaitan system that our LORD spoke of in Revelation.
Some seem to believe that Diotrephes existed long ago and was put to rest. I see “Diotrephes alive and well” within the church and we are supposed to be “shocked” by the attitudes, actions, and teachings of so called “leaders” like MacDonald.
Not surprised one single bit as this is the norm of “top down theology,” often described as the “church.” The pew sitters put so much faith, trust, hope, reliance, and even their finances into the leadership of visible Christianity, that I believe the Pharisees of Jesus day would be proud of these religious leaders of today.
And Jesus loves this so? Really?
Did it ever occur to Mancow that perhaps the only reason “Pastor” (and i use that term very loosely) Macdonald befriended him was only for his money and his famous personality????
Most pew sitters don’t fully understand “soul competency” and “priesthood of ‘the’ believer” as taught in the New Testament. Apparently, some 21st century church leaders want to keep that secret … to keep the pew from realizing that ultimate authority rests in Jesus and not the pulpit. The pew is so much easier to control if they believe that their “faith, trust, hope, reliance, and even their finances” should be entrusted blindly to church leadership. There is freedom in Christ, but not in the Christian Industrial Complex. We need a new reformation alright, but one of Truth.
In studying the Scriptures for myself, and loving what the Holy Spirit is teaching me and leading me into truth, I believe that we are to follow Jesus in allowing His teachings and authority to reign supreme in our lives, and the fallout from knowing Jesus’ truth, is this;
“we no longer in bondage nor slavery in allowing people to have authority in ruling over our lives, regardless of their human titles.”
As I watch the top down theology of the visible church crumble, Jesus is still calling out a people for Himself in which He leads as the “Good Shepherd.”
Good Shepherd = JESUS
At these big churches, most of these megapastors see their job purely as speaking and attracting crowds. But, what is really interesting is that most of those congregations have no idea their pastors don’t write their own sermons. They are expecting that big salary to be supporting someone who studies the Bible all week.
When I was in seminary, there were several students who earned money from sermons services to pass out flyers to other students. The preaching professor spoke strongly against stealing or buying sermons, but I never heard another professor speak against it. BTW, Lifeway has free downloadable sermons online. And
I went to two megachurches in Atlanta where I heard the same sermon. I ended up doing a little research and found that sermon was from Willow Creek. I am betting Willow Creek had a sermon writer on staff, as large as they are.
Another church I attended for awhile had a “research pastor” on staff. It was acknowledged there that his job was to write the sermons. At least that was not a secret.
One pastor I knew fairly well played golf 2-3 times a week with important people and an “administrative pastor” wrote his sermons.
I don’t totally hate the idea of stealing sermons, like if you have a bivocational pastor who gets paid very little, I can see an argument for it. But a pastor making three figures who’s only job is sermons–no. And keeping it a secret from the congregation is absolutely wrong.
Then there’s this article. Note there’s no admonition to be honest about stealing sermons:
http://seniorpastorcentral.com/316/6-reasons-you-should-preach-other-pastors-sermons/
Thersites: Isn’t being a “colossal bully” an important sin to take a stand against?
Of course! The same personality wellspring that provides a virtue can also produce a vice. It’s what makes us humans so interesting and maddening.
“Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account” (Hebrews 13:17). That’s a whole lot easier to do when we see church leaders more concerned about our souls than our pocketbooks … who preach without an agenda … who know our names … who visit us in our times of sickness and grief … who truly love us. Those are rare and endangered species in the 21st century American church. I’ve been fortunate enough to know a few of those in my 70-year Christian journey … only a few, but they were the real deal; they left this world as good and faithful servants and were greeted in Heaven with “Well done!”
I think the whole sermon services thing relates closely to your post. These people who are leading don’t study the Bible that much. Jesus isn’t really leading them; they are leading through pride.
There are some in the New Cal movement who do study the Bible a lot, but they are looking to find what they want, not let the Spirit lead them. Their theology is cherry-picked and purely driven by selfish desires to be in charge, to control others, and to gain possessions. If you go to their churches, they don’t talk about Jesus because what He says goes against everything that want people to believe.
birdoftheair: Would you say that when we invite Jesus to purify our heart and infuse genuine holiness in our life, He will bring healing to our eternal soul?
Yes. There are an abundance of passages in the Bible that say so plainly.
Last year, I traveled to Israel to give a talk in the Neurosurgery Department at the Davidoff Cancer Center in Tel Aviv. It was my first time in the Holy Land, and I went with a good Jewish friend of mine. Packed a ton of stuff into four days of touring. We must have been quite a sight, a devout Jew and a devout Christian walking all over Israel together, talking up a storm.
The highlight was Shabbat at the Western Wall. I got up to the Wall itself, lay my hands on it, bowed my head, and began to pray. Started out rather generic, but within a couple minutes, I felt an overwhelming need to pray for my enemies, of all things. That caught me completely off guard. I’ve prayed for my enemies before, as Jesus commands, but only rarely, and always through gritted teeth. Never actually WANTED to pray for them, until I was at the Western Wall. Long story short, the floodgates burst open, and before I knew it, I was naming specific people who’d mistreated me all the way back to med school, and genuinely praying for their well-being. Don’t know how long I was actually at the Wall, lost all track of time, but my friend was a gem, gave me all the time I needed.
When I was done, and walked away, I felt as if a 100-pound weight that I’d been carrying on my back for 20+ years was dropped. I’d been carrying it for so long, I didn’t even know it was there until it was gone.
Certainly did not see that coming. But that was last year, and the effect has been durable. So yes, Jesus most certainly IS a healer of the soul. Since that’s the only part of us that’s eternal, it’s the only part that really matters.
Why it take Jesus that long to heal that part of my soul? Blame me, not Him. I’m just grateful that He’s so patient with us, that when we’re ready, He’s ready.
“Is not my word like fire, declares the Lord, and like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces? Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, declares the Lord, who steal my words from one another.” (Jeremiah 23:29-30)
___
Broken Down Church: “Sew The Wind, Reap A Whirlwind, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
The HBC Chicago multiplex has apparently become another fine textbook example of a clear demonstration of the consolation of a form of absolute power and the potentially corrupting influences it has upon yet another 501c3 religious non-profit establishment…
Rhetorical Rancorous Reminisces:
SGM (check)
Mars Hill (check)
Willow Creek (check)
(your church name goes here?)
IMHO The grotesque pattern appears to be apparently the same.
What?
Insanity has been definded as repeating the same thing over and over and expecting a different result…
Good luck with that.
hahahahahaha
***
Is there anybody in there?
Have they become comfortably numb?
(sadface)
Christ can ease your pain, but you have to listen to the diagnosis, prognosis, and be will to receive the heavenly cure.
“Faithful is He who has called you…”
(Please sēē your bible for details)
*
Jesus, your just what I needed, yeah!
To believe in this 501c3 church demonstrative reapetative potentially destructive thing has certainly become a hard way to go, huh?
flee.
ATB
Sòpy
—
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_FrOQC-zEog
Inspiration:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2zEiiZi2DKk
…just because:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=emV54vT8Fcg
;~)
– –
Max,
Frankly, itv was those reports that caused me to realize that we were dealing with someone who needs a psychiatrist. I have never, ever heard of something like that. I would have run out of that church so fast.
It was this revelation that made me realize I was dealing with a psychiatrically unbalance jerk.
Can you get me the relevant information on this? I would be happy to write about it.
I am so sorry.
funyun,
Do you remember when Mark Driscoll created fake twitter accounts?
Good night!
Fisher,
Mancow certainly gave us some specifics. Grateful.
The Bible story about Ananias didn’t turn out well.
I remember when the potty-mouth from Seattle trolled the blogosphere under the name of “William Wallace II” … posting favorable comments about himself. Man, I tell you, these New Calvinist icons are a strange lot!
Just saw this clueless statement by a “pastor” at a Patheos blog and I commented this on the page:
“Re: your statement, “Ministers don’t explode. You never hear of a pastor going through their church taking out members who have frustrated their work”
Are you joking? Are you serious? See a very recent example: James MacDonald, Harvest Bible Chapel…” [end of quote from my comment on that page]
Link to page:https://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2019/01/25/two-questions/
The guest post was by a Mike Glenn, who may be pastor at a Brentwood Baptist Church.
I was disappointed to see that Scot McKnight, whom I like, had allowed this to be posted on his blog.
Good grief.
Same here. I stopped giving JMac any benefit of the doubt at that point.
You sound like an amazing person. I want you to know that God knows you even if you are not sure you know Him. Most honest people like yourself go through life and question the pain and sorrow they see around them. I did that when my 3 y o dgtr got a brain tumor. Anyone who says they have no problem with pain is either deceiving themselves or attempting to deceive others.
Over many years,I found answers to my questions that have helped me to come out on the other side believing the narrative of Scripture. But, I’ve never forgotten the painful search. God is there in the pain and CS Lewis says pain is the megaphone of God’s voice.
I prayed for you as I wrote this.
Such is the spell cast on members of a cult of personality.
I believe that the elders and many of the subordinate pastor needs to resign. It happened at Willow Creek and Mars Hill and it could happen here.
Root 66,
When I lived in Gallup, New Mexico, my apartment was on a hill that looked down on Rte 66. I have very fond memories of that road.
Noevangelical,
Don’t you love The Godfather quotes? Long story but my father was a GP who cared for many immigrants, being one himself. He had a couple of patients (they are all long gone as is my father) who were Italian immigrants and were a rather rough sort but they liked my dad and referred their *friends* to him.
One day, my dad’s offices got raided by some federal law enforcement group and he was forced to turn over his records on these particular individuals. They were investigating the story behind some gunshot wounds. Somehow, nothing happened to them. The patients paid my dad a visit to say they didn’t blame him for turning over their records. They remained his patients until he retired. I have some funny stories surrounding them which I will save for another occasion.
I once talked to a pastor about his approach to sermon prep. He said he had a seminary professor advise him that when he graduated and entered the ministry to spend time preparing 25 sermons. The prof said he would never have to spend much time on sermon prep after his first year of ministry if he took this approach. This would be enough to last him a lifetime, he said. All he would have to do is mix them up a bit and give them a slightly different theme each time to elude detection. He also noted that the pew would never have a clue, since most of them didn’t really listen to the message anyway – they were more concerned about fellowship and potluck dinners. That pastor said he followed this technique … he now pastors a large, almost mega-church.
Max,
It has become harder and harder to find decent churches which have not either gone gospel light or Calvinista strongholds. Thankfully I found a home in a Lutheran church with great pastors. Good churches are out there but it may take time to find one.
Reminds me of the British term for talking heads delivering the news. “Newsreaders,” not reporters So maybe we should call these guys “Sermonreaders” instead of “Pastors.”
We had a friend at a big city mega who was paid, along with another young lady, to do sermon research for the Pastor’s rather long sermons. Mostly finding stories. At least it wasn’t really a secret in the church, and I do think the pastor wrote the outlines. I guess that’s better than downloading your sermons off the internet.
I live very close to old Rte 66 … but, if I revealed my exact location, the New Calvinists would come looking for me.
Yeah, I know. There are 7,000 who have not bowed a knee to Baal. Until I find one of those in my area, I’ll just be the Church to those around me.
raswhiting,
I just joined you in commenting.
Perhaps out of an instinct for self preservation.
Thanks Bridget.
Anyone who knows me knows that I’m not the Archie Bunker type.
Still though, what used to be a slang expression that nobody batted an eyelash over back in the day, now has repercussions; it’s almost Orwellian.
La di da di da … I can’t hear you! Just get it over so we can go eat.
One thing you need to realize that for mega churches is the importance of having a message and messenger that draws a lot of people. Without both you aren’t going to have a mega church and the income that comes in to support and sustain it. I say this for good or bad.
Thus the cost of paying for additional staff in large churches I am sure is just the cost of doing business.
I know of one Mega Church in the Wash DC area where the pastor had a script he read off from each week. It wasn’t just bullet points but a full script that he then repeated 3 times or more each weekend. I am not sure if he wrote it all or had someone assisting him. My guess is that he at least had some help. Sometimes the wording of this sermon is even reviewed by all.
Here is an interesting summary about MacDonald on the Elephants Debt blog:
https://theelephantsdebt.com/executive-summary/
TS00,
You lost me?
I asked a question. That makes me a bully?
Ha, wouldn’t work at my favorite weekday service. There’s a grave risk that someone in our tiny assemblage remembers the last sermon about Teresa of Avila (or whatever). One preacher even started a sermon by saying, “I see that Charlotte is here today, so I’ll need to say something new about the Parable of the Talents.” I think we actually scare our preachers. 🙂
Max,
I grew up practically on top of it. Not too many kicks 😉
That’s better than the other way around! Of course, we should all just get along together in love … but, some church folks (pulpit and pew) have a problem with that evidently.
Noevangelical,
This really is the crux of the issue.. I seem to remember that the NT speaks of “true” followers as those that attempt to be “Christ-like”… time and again here on the TWW, it seems to boil down to the “leaders” following the classic line “Do as I say, not as I do”….
Jeffrey Chalmers,
and, there seems to be lots of examples where “misbehaving leaders” are confronted, and they either repent, or suffer, or both… but, as TWW has clearly documents, in current times, the pew peons are NEVER to confront.. that is the worse evil of all!! Despite living in a country that prides itself on “balance of powers”, and many religious leaders wrapping themselves in a “conservative” american flag, they sure seem to forget the “balance of powers” when it comes to them!
incogneto,
Blessings to you. Thanks for sharing.
Immediate visceral reaction. While when I first left my church community, I felt disoriented and bereft and like I’d lost a piece of myself, the thought of *any* kind of church makes me physically ill.
I have heard there are good churches out there. I even attended one for a few weeks whose people seemed loving and caring. It’s just too hard. All my senses go on high alert, driving into the parking lot, and my fight-or-flight kicks in. It’s easier just to stay at home.
From my own experience, I can’t imagine “dones” putting together anything resembling a church. I can just barely tolerate sitting in someone’s living room with a handful of people reading the Bible together, and even that is touch-and-go sometimes.
Nick Bulbeck,
Nick,
Thank you for being a breath of fresh air. You often pop up just when the pollution is really getting to me.
Max,
Very reminiscent of “Where else will they go?”
Perhaps he’d be surprised at the increasingly common answer. “Not to *your* brand of churches, certainly! In fact, you’ve given *all* churches a bad taste in my mouth. So make it simple: not to *any* “church” at all! Thank you very much, and don’t let the door hit you on the way out, Mr. Mohler.”
I roomed with two Italians back in the 70s, their typical greeting at the end of the day was “How did you day go?” The answer the other typically gave was “wop wop”. That was another place and time, maybe some bad, but humor was not as risky as now.
What? Horror of horrors? Not go to church? Gasp, sob, pass the smelling salts. And yet, we survive. Better yet, we thrive. We can breathe again; we learn to think for ourselves; we can even interact with others without first checking to see which box they belong in. It’s almost like being alive again.
Sure, our poor elderly mother’s think we are headed for hell, but we know they mean well.
I honestly question whether there is such a necessity as a “head pastor”, actually.
It’s called “PTCS” … Post Traumatic Church Syndrome
I really appreciate Mancow’s honesty here. The things he says are direct and to the point, just as they should be. I see a time coming soon where a great storm will topple many empires that are mislabeled as churches. There will come a time where this kind of thing is so greatly multiplied that it will be impossible for this blog to keep up with all the controversies happening at once. This will not be a fun thing, but will be necessary in order to bring truth and justice back to what calls itself “Jesus’ Church.” The times will be ugly and hard but God will use them for His purposes and reform that must happen will. In the mean time we would be wise to get prepared for the difficulties ahead. If you have no idea what I am talking about, ask God about what is coming and expect some kind of answer.
Beyond that I know where this is headed and where many others like it are eventually headed too. I really liked Rick Joyner’s “The Valley.” It speaks very specifically to this kind of problem of big churches blowing up and the challenge for true ministers to help people pick up the pieces and learn and grown in Christ from the experience. You might want to check it out if you have not already.
I’m not sure I’d call you a bully for asking the question, though I found the potential repercussions of the question deeply troubling as well. Seems as if identifying specific people by name who would be valuable to leading Harvest out of the quagmire would be the same as painting targets on their backs.
The leadership at Harvest has certainly proven their ruthlessness to this point.
Max,
Thanks for understanding, Max. I have run into churchgoers who, while saying they are sympathetic, pooh-pooh this idea and say I should simply make up my mind to get over it (“Take every thought captive!”), but it’s very real.
It may be, some of them say, that I am bitter, and I need to forgive in order to be forgiven, and all that.
In any event, I must not neglect the gathering of the saints together!!!! I’m living in sin, y’know, by not going to church.
I find that remark highly offensive.
Just kidding. Bringing Orwell into the discussion is very appropriate because he was prophetic for how things are developing now in our culture, such as facecrimes and thoughtcrimes.
In my experience there have been very few (if any) leaders when confronted with their sin actually confess and repent. If you know of any especially with more prominent leaders I would like to know of those cases. Sadly these leaders find a way to wiggle out of their sin and get away with things that they condemn others for.
I am being quite serious here.
dee,
Thank you for also commenting.
Muff Potter,
I think we just have a better sense of what is “proper” and kind when we refer to other groups of people. I grew up in a neighborhood in a large city back in the 60s that was highly integrated. Of course, I knew right away that the “n” word was off-limits as I was taught at home that it was extremely cruel and derogatory. But I had a a friend who was poor, working-class with a lot of drama in her life. I heard someone refer to her as “poor white trash.” I came home and asked my mom what it meant,and also mentioned that it didn’t sound kind (I was in 4th grade). My mom wisely said that such a term, as well as the n-word, and any other term applied to a group of people to either laugh at them, about them, or to talk down about them was out of bounds in our home, or in the family’s hearing. She said it would be up to me to decide about how I talked about others as I grew up, but it was a valuable lesson and i have continues to avoid using words that can be interpreted as a slur about other groups of people.
Getting back to the post, it’s why I struggle so much with pastors like Driscoll or MacDonald who perceive those who don’t agree with them as the enemy and speak so unkindly about them. It is not what Jesus would have us do. You can disagree without all the derogatory name-calling.
It would also be massively unfair to the people who live in Tuktoyuctuc, assuming anyone actually lives there!
refugee,
“I have run into churchgoers who, while saying they are sympathetic, pooh-pooh this idea and say I should simply make up my mind to get over it (“Take every thought captive!”), but it’s very real.”
++++++++++++++++++++
i totally understand as well. After i left First Church of Dysfunction, I was paralyzed with stress and anxiety over deciding what clothes to wear. The psychological abuse and control, all done in the name of God, had been so strong.
————–
“It may be, some of them say, that I am bitter, and I need to forgive in order to be forgiven, and all that.”
++++++++++++++++
what a crock ‘o religious $h|t, spoken by religious nonthinkers. you’ve been spiritually/emotionally beaten up. these bruises are painful to the touch for a very, very, very long time.
i see no reason not to speak plainly.
———————-
“In any event, I must not neglect the gathering of the saints together!!!! I’m living in sin, y’know, by not going to church.””
+++++++++++++++++
that is just the stupidest thing i’ve ever heard. there are very few saint gatherings that are worth the effort and the time. Spending time with a true-blue friend would be one of them.
i stand with you, refugee.
Linn,
“I think we just have a better sense of what is “proper” and kind when we refer to other groups of people.”
++++++++++++++++++++
yes, within a certain cultural sampling. outside of which, what is “proper” and “correct” completely change.
i think kindness (what is behind the words) translates across cultures. the words themselves and their meanings & import change with the meridian.
Law Prof,
“(“Take every thought captive!”)”
++++++++++++
seems to me that this, in a religious environment which can’t help but be pressurized, is the road to psychological problems / brainwashing.
denying an impulse that is a healthy response and which a healthy person feels, and squashing it down until you just…..don’t……feel….it……anymore.
i’m ever amazed at the trouble the bible causes. simply because of the religious craziness with which it is interpreted and implemented.
I laughed too and wondered what the work-around-spin would be for:
“But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.”
Over the years after leaving fundagelicalism, I’m convinced that the Bible suffers from the same two ills as ‘science’.
Not giving it the credence it deserves at one extreme, and making way too much of it at the other.
Muff’s in solidarity too.
exharvestmember,
Thank you for your gracious testimony. And I trust it is benefiting many readers as it is helpful to me.
Without the Holy Spirit working in us, it is hard to be humble. It is harder to be self-less. Even as each one of us needs to keep our life transparent with God, it seems that pastors of big and small churches could use an annual spiritual health exam somewhere. Maybe those who serve as Elders should do the same.
The Mother Road! One of my bucket list things is to drive the entire Route 66 once.
I have also tasted the negative aspects of a few churches along the way. It’s enough to make one want to keep them at an arm’s length at least.
Right now we found a church that’s healthy and joyful. Sermons are original and fresh, biblically based. I found myself surprised by joy. The church is about 200-250 in size, with good small groups and Sunday School/Bible study activities. I do not put my own high expectations on folks here, since I know ultimately Jesus is my Redeemer. I do sense that this is a good, healthy, balanced church.
When I look back at the other places that gave me negative experiences, it was painful then. But God gave me grace in the midst of it through some people I met and some events I participated in. Seeds of blessing. I am glad that I left those groups either by choice or by relocation. But keeping in touch with genuine friends in Christ has proven important. God is gracious to me by leading me to a nice church again.
Hoping that many injured folks will find a healthy church “home” again.
Max,
In secrests defense he had that style before he became involved with harvest
I appreciate both your comment, and the fact that you yourself are willing to comment constructively here.
It would be very heartening if that indeed proves to be the case. That is, if the congregation enacts the proper, orderly discipline you wrote about, publicly rebukes the elders who’ve sinned, and is able to replace them with a more mature, self-sacrificing community of elders who lead by example in word and deed. I say “community” for want of a better word, but I certainly reject the word “board” as it has too many connotations of exclusivity, power and secrecy.
It is very rare that this happens when a Celebrity Pastor’s brand implodes. What happens instead is that the “church” proves unable to function without him. So while it may be true that they worshipped Jesus and not the Celebrity Pastor, it’s also true that an awful lot of their trust and grounding was in the Celebrity Pastor and not in Jesus, and so if [generic] you strike the Celebrity, his followers are scattered.
I’m a bit conflicted, by way of example, over much of what is often said by survivors of the Mars Hill fiasco. They talk, for instance, of how Driskle is a beloved brother in Christ and they are full of love for him. They love him so much that they want him to repent… but they didn’t love him enough to rebuke him or stand up to him when he was running Mars Hill. I say this cautiously, though, because I can’t say for certain that I would have done better in their position.
If, by contrast, Harvest is truly able to repent and change, and come back stronger, then I wish you all the best in your endeavours.
This was a Twitter post:
Makes me wonder, it has been 11 days since HBC put James on leave to begin a reconciliation process headed by a third party. Has a third prty been hired? Has James called to apologize to anyone? Have the HBC Elders?
This is a good question. What action has HBC taken to deliver on what they have promised?
Steve240,
Of course Idont know this for sure, but seeing and hearing what I am and knowing men you have had a friendship with him. he seems like he just doesnt think he’s wrong. Perhaps because of tha God has blinded him to fulfill his purpose.
Steve240,
Of course Idont know this for sure, but seeing and hearing what I am and knowing men you have had a friendship with him. he seems like he just doesnt think he’s wrong. Perhaps because of tha God has blinded him to fulfill his purpose.
Nick Bulbeck,
Nick Bulbeck,
Thank you for a constructive comment. It is my belief Harvest will survive in some capacity.
I join Nick in wishing the good people of HBC all the best in the days ahead … on the other side of a purging in leadership. There must also be a demonstration by the remnant of God’s people in HBC membership to humble themselves, pray, repent, and seek His face. JMac and his elders depended on the support of a pew which allowed a cult of personality to take root and prosper. The same God that tears down is able to build up … I truly wish you the best.
Muff, consider threading the following book— How to read the Bible for all its worth by Gordon D Fee
I think the title is terrible, but the insights are very interesting……..
I imagine after some point in time of trying to convict and change a leader God will let them become blind to their actions and just let things fall. James MacDonald has certainly dug himself quite a hole to try and dig out of. MacDonald has been digging for quite some time. I read one twitter comment where the person didn’t think MacDonald could even handle the truth of his actions; it would be too devastating.
Whether HBC survives or collapsed I imagine will depend a large degree on how long the current elders and MacDonald delay their staying. If they don’t step down soon and appoint a new leadership team then probably even financially as well as membership wise the church will be so far behind to never be able recover. Sadly I don’t think the current leadership including MacDonald can see this or maybe they really don’t care.
Patriot134,
“Perhaps because of tha God has blinded him to fulfill his purpose.”
++++++++++++++++++++
i tend to think things like this are more grounded in personality disorders.
(but then i strongly prefer not to spiritualize things.
i’ve encountered too many situations where christians simply didn’t take responsibility for their actions, or take initiative to change themselves & their circumstances.
Too many times when christians lower their standards for themselves and other christians, especially leaders, tolerating and giving pass on truly horrible conduct. criminal conduct.
all because they spiritualized it away — ascribing it all to the devil. or to God, even.
thesis statement: my friends and relatives who are atheist, agnostic, muslim, hindu, and buddhist have higher ethical standards for themselves and those they associate with than most of the christians i’ve known and observed.)
I gtet why they’d be so reticent. Been there and can speak from some experience having stood up (in one case, in front of the entire congregation) and opposed abusive leaders multiple times—and it has yet to go well. It’s taken about as well as clubbing a baby seal in the public square. All these people who have agreed with you that the leader’s confused, self-obsessed, heretical or even evil, will, when you take a stand, absolutely leave you swinging in the proverbial wind. A few might take the quiet exit and follow you, but no one ever will stand by your side and step up and say “that’s right, we’re not going to take your abuse in the name of God anymore!” That only happens in the movies, all nice and neat and wrapped up in time for the rolling credits.
One time I had the abusive pastor himself, years later, come to see the evil of his actions that had prompted me to get in his face and go to war (and had prompted him to shoot me straight out the church door, never to return), and repent, and call a public meeting of former church members (church had dissolved) and tell everyone that I’d been right all along and he was sorry and he had been an abusive pig. And you know what? The members of the church heard his words, considered them, and 80% still treat me like one who is not to be considered an acceptable part of their society. You stand up for the truth, expect to be abandoned and hated. Just the way it is.
Law Prof,
“You stand up for the truth, expect to be abandoned and hated. Just the way it is.”
+++++++++++++
well that sucks.
any thought on whether truth, and standing up for it, is more welcomed outside the church bubble?
i would guess yes, knowing how fanatical church culture is.
(note – a quiet and conservative church which rejects the inconvenient truth and those who stand up for it is plenty fanatical)
That sounds incredibly painful for you, and not at all helpful to the church.
If a clergy member has abused people, committed crimes, covered up crimes, or brought about financial ruin, there needs to be a public process. I don’t favor bringing in new leadership right away. The church needs experienced interim people and a slow, transparent process for members to grasp what has happened, speak out in public meetings, and settle their thoughts. It will easily take a year for a damaged congregation to start healing and articulate its needs.
If the issue is mostly private, and not yet seriously harming the church, then the departure can be handled more discreetly. Still, the members deserve to know the basics (“He was starting to drink too much, and agreed to resign”).
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
My sister lives in Kingman, AZ, the last stretch of Route 66. It is really pretty country, and better to do in the fall or spring when it sin’t so hot.
Law Prof,
Standing up to a corrupt religious culture is exactly what Jesus did and they decided to kill him while all of his friends abandoned him. Jesus said if they hated Him, they will also hate those who follow Him. All it takes is a read through the gospel of Matthew to see that Christ stood up the religious leaders and called them a “brood of vipers” and “hypocrites”. He did not hold back but spoke the Truth. I am a former Harvest member and that gospel gave me courage to face the elders. We should not be afraid to stand up for the one True God publicly. Jesus will be glorified if we follow Him and defend His Holy name, even if it is in the church. The most similar person in the Bible to James MacDonald is Caiaphas and the elders and campus pastors are the scribes and Pharisees. This is how we need to view them and not shy away from publicly calling them out, even though all abandon us.
The implosion of Harvest Bible chapel is very simple and I believe the puppet Elders,Jmac and all of his Henchmen know it….They have been saying it Literally for years and right up to this very moment… “we are working towards transparency”…either your transparent or your not,You either have something to hide or you don’t…the old saying is true..if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck…if you want to be transparent then be transparent, open up the books,open all the closets air all the laundry if there is nothing to hide then quit hiding..its not something you work towards it’s a simple decision either I’m going to be transparent or I’m not going to be transparent it’s that simple, so to Jmac and his puppet Elder board and his Henchmen please please please stop insulting people’s intelligence and Just tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth…we would really appreciate it…there is no forgiveness without repentance.
Sad. I just emailed to a friend this morning:
“If you accept the biblical warning that Truth will, in this world, ever be rejected, beaten and left in the street; that anyone who tries to help, examine or dust her off will themselves become a target, you find yourself asking, ‘What do I think I could ever accomplish?’ Unless one’s goal in life is to be beaten up and lay in the street, it behooves one to keep himself distracted and busy being ‘helpful’, part of the cleanup crew who minister to the endless victims of the endless lies.”
Sounds more like they mean: “We are looking for some way to spin everything that will be really convincing and keep you from discovering the real truth and tar and feathering us.”
raswhiting,
On the other hand, let’s credit the blog owner, Scot McKnight, for this good post last month about Powermongering Pastors. A quote:
“It takes a pastor, some elders and leaders around the pastor, and some systems and structures and policies that emerge into a Power Culture: marked by centralization of power into the pastor’s office, the knowledge on the part of elders and deacons and leaders of stuff going on, the requirement of silence, the punishment of opponents and critics, the labeling of critics, the narrating of an alternative (fake) story of what is going on, the assignment of impure motives by those designated as opponents and the assumption of pure motives by the pastor and elders and leaders… I could go on, you know the story.”
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2018/12/21/chicagolands-pastor-scandals/
You accomplished more than we did; we just left quietly, and gave up trying to contact people after a handful of attempts to do so were rebuffed. If we were in the same position now, we’d handle it differently: at least we’d vigorously deny the false accusations the CEO made against us. At the time, we were too concerned about causing division. In hindsight, when an organisation is being dragged along by a wolf, then anyone you can separate away from it is (to swap metaphors) a person snatched from the flames.
FYI, got word from someone I know who still attends HBC that the corporate line is now that Pastor Secrest was already going to be fired from HBC Naples for poor performance, well before JMac moved down there. But it was just “bad timing” to do it in early January.
So it would seem that there will be no repentance or any attempt at restitution on HBC’s part.
raswhiting,
I read the article whereof you spake.
Hmm…
The more I think about it, the more I find it concerning. Quite apart from the “pastors never take people out” claim, which we know is proven sadly inaccurate often. And not only at megachurch businesses.
Then the elders need to have a “family meeting” with the good people of HBC-Naples and tell them this. If it’s just a “party line” which has been spun at the HBC corporate office, the HBC-Naples elders will be faced with lying to cover a lie and that will just take them into a deeper hole.
I would love to learn what the performance metrics at Harvest are. If JMac is a model, it appears all one need produce is numbers and dollars.
Sadly, this has been our experience as well.
We know a handful (a remnant?) of self-identifying Christians who walk the talk.
And yet all of the “christians” among our wide acquaintance appear to think that christians are the only people who have a moral code, and thus, the only people with morals and upholding morality.
So many times, I’ve heard christians express the idea that atheists have no moral code because they don’t believe in the christian god and the bible. They blame all the evil that is seen in the world on the people who do not bow down to the Christ.
And yet, there is plenty of evil inside churchianity. Plenty. More than plenty.
And the atheists, agnostics, and people of non-christian faith we know have been generally more upright and more loving than those in the churches. (Yet those we’ve talked to about this insist that the “nonbelievers” are simply manipulating us to pull us away from the faith. Ironic, isn’t it? Especially considering the love-bombing and manipulation running rampant in christian megachurches and cults these days.)
Jimmy Hinton has an excellent article on the misuse/mistranslation of that verse and also touches on Harvest. “. . . not leaving helpless those of us assembling together, as is the custom with some, but consoling one another, and so much more as you see the day drawing near” (Hebrews 10:25, [Jimmy’s] translation). https://jimmyhinton.org/submitting-to-church-leaders-isnt-as-biblical-as-you-think/
Hey Refugee and elastgirl, are you kidding me how many REAL Christians do you know??? MILLIONS OF PEOPLE have been killed by Atheistic Marksists and occult leaning Natzis..and have you ever heard of Islamic terrorism??? and let’s talk about these upright loving Muslims, how do they treat women? And I don’t have to go back to the middle ages to find these things… maybe you should get to meet and know some REAL Christians before you lump all so called Christians into one basket. Do you think all Muslims are terrorists? Do you think all Atheists are marxists…ofcourse not and I wouldn’t lump them up into one basket either…Although I can take it, I find find your comments narrow minded and bigoted.
Dan keller,
Dan, your diatribe proved their point
Iowa steve..so if I agree that Most Christians are unethical, unloving and that Christians in general blame All evil on nonChrisians, that would be the loving thing to do??? I guess I could have been a little more gentle…I felt like Refugee and Elastgirl were acting just as unloving and hypocritical as the Christians they were lambasting…next time I will think before I hit the send button.
Dan keller,
Dan keller,
I’ve hung out at this blog for a good many years now and I have yet to see elastigirl or refugee lump all Christians into the same pile.
You’ll find the good, the bad, and the ugly, in every brand of Christianity on the planet, just as you’ll find the same spread in every other religion or secular group.
Muff Potter,
I’ve only been on this blog for a couple of months and I really enjoy hearing everyone’s point of view and I agree that what you say is true.
Dan keller,
“MILLIONS OF PEOPLE have been killed by Atheistic Marksists and occult leaning Natzis..and have you ever heard of Islamic terrorism??? and let’s talk about these upright loving Muslims, how do they treat women?
…Do you think all Muslims are terrorists? Do you think all Atheists are marxists…ofcourse not and I wouldn’t lump them up into one basket either”
++++++++++++++++++
then why did you?!?
good grief, Dan.
i’ve been a christian my entire life. can’t remember a moment when i didn’t believe in God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit.
i’ve known some outstanding christians. some of the best human beings on earth.
my muslim friends are also some of the best human beings on earth. my agnostic relatives are some of the best human beings on earth. As are many others of various faiths or no-faith practices i have had the privilege to know.
the fact of my experience is that they outshine most of the christians i have known. Aside from high personal standards, the main reason is sincerity. they are kind, honest, generous, compassionate simply because it is the right thing to do. End of story.
i speak for myself and from my own experience, never claimed to speak otherwise.
from a lifetime in church, in a variety of denominations, my observation is that christian church culture promotes a belief that they are the elite people on earth.
pay attention to christian jargon — it is rife with expressions of superiority that look down on the inferior everybody else. a sneer with a sweet smile. “The world”, they say. The evil, wretched world.
holy smokes, even a small amount of world travelling exposes one to the kindness of strangers. to the goodwill in their hearts. to the magnificence of human beings.
i see it every day no matter where i go around town.
And the christian community has the gaul to denigrate them with their remarks.
Christian culture is the champ at lumping people together into one basket – everyone but them. The world.
Law Prof,
So agree about the lack of talent! I have heard so many people say Macdonald is a gifted teacher and I’m like what??? People like to convince themselves they are a part of something great
Law Prof,
So agree about the lack of talent! I have heard so many people say Macdonald is a gifted teacher and I’m like what??? People like to convince themselves they are a part of something great
Max,
exharvestmember,
Can I just say I think Harvest is the most disgusting place in Chicago! How could they fire him for poor performance when literally they just became his boss at the end of Sept and they already determined he was a poor performer after he was the one who built together that group of people to make a church for macjerk to take over. I hope every part of this church falls to a crumb
elastigirl,
“And the christian community has the gaul to denigrate them with their remarks.”
++++++++++++++++
alright, granted, i used a broad brush there.
i’ll clarify by referring to the message of christian culture, rather than people. (although i hear the message through people)
Has anyone read this over at Warren Throckmorton’s:
https://www.wthrockmorton.com/2019/01/29/mark-driscolls-church-to-host-church-governance-seminar/
Yes, Driscoll wants to host a seminar on church governance – probably to explain what he did wrong … No, wait, if you read the whole article, you’ll find out he wants to show people how to create a theocracy.
From the article you linked:
“It is so complicated in this age where everybody is wrong but the pastor. If only there was a right form of church government which could rescue a pastor from these disgruntled people and negative outsiders.” (Warren Throckmorton)
Hmmmm … Calvin ruled Geneva by theocratic means, coupled with the strong arm of the magistrate. He alone was divinely guided to create a Christian utopia in Geneva, even if it meant exiling, torturing, imprisoning, executing dissenters. Beware about putting any 21st century church leader on such a throne … and don’t sign a church membership covenant!!
elastigirl,
Elastigirl and Refugee I apologize, I let my flesh get the better of me. what you said about Christians or Christian culture really hurt, because I know many wonderful Christian people who are not what you described…and What I said was meant to let you see how it feels from my end and I was wrong, I’m asking for you both to forgive me because I was wrong….and I must admit you have given me alot to think about.
Dan keller,
Reading their comments carefully, they specifically limit their comments to their own personnel experiences and contacts. It is quite possible to be in a specific community where you experience exactly what they have explained with regards to different belief systems.
All I know is that to believe that the label “Christian” automatically means some kind of safety or goodness is completely naive and foolish. I’m not saying it should be that way, but unfortunately it is that way.
Dan keller,
“what you said about Christians or Christian culture really hurt, because I know many wonderful Christian people who are not what you described”
++++++++++++++++++++++++
thank you, dan, for your heartfelt comment.
i’ve known them, too. they are not who i was referring to.
by the same token, i know many muslim people who are absolutely christlike. i observe so many more. to hear you write them all off because of radicals in the news would hurt them deeply (although they hear it or sense it regularly). i care about them, and feel the hurt, too. they meekly go about their lives, aware of attitudes like the one you expressed. it is an uneasy existence.
the core of my frustration and disillusionment (which i sprinkle liberally on everyone here) is the fact that christians (who tout themselves as God’s gift to the world) are no more christlike than anyone else. in fact, many are hateful, cruel, obnoxious, repulsive… i’ll stop.
other people groups (who christians view as the enemy) demonstrate a more clear, more pure christlikeness.
disillusioned, exceedingly frustrated. disgusted with this silly religion of mine.
elastigirl,
It’s hard for me to come to terms with the fact that so many professing Christian’s really are not…it makes me so angry, case in point Jmac and the Harvest Bible cult….thank you for your kind words to me I really appreciate them. I felt really Bad about my comments yesterday, you made my day today thank you very much.
The Cosmic-level Cause so Righteous it justifies any means whatsoever to bring it about.
Strip away the God-talk and you have Citizen Robespeirre’s secular Republique of Perfect Virtue and all its imitations. Whose Perfect Utopian Omelet always requires breaking more and more eggs.
No Utopian seems to realize that “Utopia” is the Latin word for “Nowhere”.
Re: Driscoll, he can implement theocratic (pastor-ruled) governance if he wants, but people are free to walk out the door (unlike in Geneva) and to post information about their scandalous pastor on Wartburg Watch and Twitter. We’ll see how that works out.
Dan keller,
Thank, Dan. It’s a really good feeling.
i’ve felt for some time now that a revolution of some sort is wanting to happen in christianity. Is happening. it’s been stuck and stale for a long time.
when professional speakers run out of things to say and have to buy material recycled many times over, things are winding down.
when the institution can’t possibly be true to its mission, the days of the status quo are numbered.
(the church institution sees itself as too big to fail — ultimately, in the final analysis, what is ethical will be sacrificed to protect money and power. the investment in building, assets, expensive education, careers, mortgages, personal reputation & legacy & significance, etc are simply too valuable and too much)
stale, stupid and $h|tty (sorry, technical word — and alliterative!) in unsustainable (accidental alliteration) (darn, did it again!). change wants to happen.
i imagine exponentially so where God is concerned.
Indeed. I sense a restlessness throughout the Body of Christ (note: I didn’t say “church”). Perhaps we are seeing the first signs of a hunger for a genuine presence of God which will usher Him back in the house. The counterfeit “church” is just not satisfying … it is exhausting.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2019/01/30/an-open-letter-from-jim-engleman-from-harvest-bible-chapel-elgin-to-the-bartholomew-family-in-naples-florida/
Max,
I agree Max
Dan keller,
We won’t experience the Great Awakening we pray for until we experience a rude awakening in the organized church. The first sign of genuine revival will be when both pulpit and pew admits that we have been wrong about a lot of things.
Max,
Yes, I agree, too. Let us pray the true revival will happen and endure. Maybe this is blessing in disguise – God may be purifying His church, who Christ Jesus bought with His blood.
Although I’ve been following this for several weeks, it wasn’t until yesterday that I put 2 and 2 together and realized that I knew John Secrest 20+ years ago. He was a pastor to young(er) married couples at our Evangelical Free church. Outstanding, godly, humble man. He and his young family left the church to become a missionaries to Hungary. John Secrest is worthy of leading a church. Harvest is unworthy of having such a man in leadership. I hope the local church will come to its senses, drop the connection with Harvest and restore John to leadership.
Which is why he had to be Purged.
The 3 month preaching stint was announced by the church in Naples on Instagram back in September 2018. MacDonald going to Naples head zero to do with any “punishment”.
Max,
The goatee is the hipster look.
But is it an IRONIC goatee?
To go with the IRONIC man-bun?
And the IRONIC gluten-free soy milk latte?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHzTGi70FQM
This was likely his long-planned exit strategy. Now will he just be allowed to blame others, and get away with all of his lying, stealing, bullying and abusing? For years? He, and all of those who enabled him, really ought to be investigated for theft and fraud; and heaven only knows how much remains hidden. What were all the financial shenanigans about, involving folks like the (Hobby Lobby) Greens? How much money did this man and his family siphon off and stash away for just this moment, as well as pass on to friends? All on the backs of thousands of men and women paying their tithes and giving sacrificially to ‘the Lord’.
How about it Mancow – are you pressing charges, or just making loud accusations and seeking to distance yourself?