James MacDonald and Harvest Bible: What Don’t They Want You to Know?

 

Qumran
One of the caves in which the Dead Sea Scrolls were found in Qumran

“A clergyman who engages in business, and who rises from poverty to wealth, and from obscurity to a high position, avoid as you would the plague.” Jerome


1/23/19 Update: I have no idea why I confused plaintiffs and defendants in the post. It’s fixed now. Sorry about that!

__________

An Israel Vignette: Dee’s trip starts with a bang!

Over the next few weeks, I’ll be sharing short observations of my trip so you won’t get bored. After all, this is not a travel blog.

Warning: Avoid JFK if you are planning on visiting Israel or any of the Arab countries. They shunt you into the most ridiculous queue to go through an extra check point. (I have a global pass which was useless in this situation.) So many people missed flights due to this situation. I tried to help one young teen who was going to Dubai to study agriculture but to no avail.

Thankfully we made it to our El Al flight which left at midnight. At least half of our 747 was filled with Ultra Orthodox Jews dressed in traditional clothing. Here is an explanation. Most men boarded with a long black coat and tradition hat. Some removed their coat and donned a prayer shawl during the long flight. I had never seen a  Tefillin before and watched one man putting it on in the boarding area.The women wear long dark skirts and keep their hair covered. There was little mixing with the non-Jewish passengers. However, I had a short conversation with one man who was trying to calm down his baby. He opened up for a few minutes after I told him his son was beautiful.

Some of the Orthodox men ignored the flight attendants warning to sit down during descent. I had a quiet giggle when the head flight attendant ( a no nonsense woman who appeared to have some military training) came marching up to the recalcitrant man and a tongue lashing ensued. She won.

I have been waiting for a break in the action to discuss the incidence of child sex abuse in the Lubavtich community of NYC. Like many communities that are isolated and hold to a strong central religious governance, the incidence of unreported sex abuse is high.

I feel asleep for a few hours and when I woke up, I was covered with a blanket. One of the flight attendants told me I looked cold and she wanted to make me comfortable! As we began our descent into Tel Aviv, the turbulence was noticeable. Suddenly, a flash of light lit up the cabin and it sounded like someone banged on the plane. I had experienced this one time on a flight to Baton Rouge when the plans was hit by lightening. However, the flight attendants and the pilots appeared concerned,pderhaps fearing it was something else. Those El Al folks know what they are doing. Thankfully, within about 10 minutes they determined it was simply lightening. The pilot spoke to the passengers telling us that we would be safely arriving in Tel Aviv and that we would have a story to tell our friends.


As I was waiting to board my flight to Israel, I saw a bunch of tweets and texts, alerting me that James MacDonald had decided to drop the lawsuit against Julie Roys and the good folks at The Elephant Debt (TED). I immediately texted TED and was thrilled to receive confirmation.

I had predicted that the lawsuit might be dropped once the plaintiffs started asking for documents that might reveal things like James MacDonald’s salary and benefits as well as the debt of the church. I also outlined a number of problems with the lawsuit in James MacDonald Sues Bloggers for Defamation. There Are Reasons Why Defamation Lawsuits Rarely Succeed

The motions to suppress access to relevant information by the defendants

It is important to understand the right of defendants to access to information relevant to lawsuits. I believe there are many pastors who are aware that such information may be quite damaging to them, especially in the eyes of those who contribute to ministries. Many pastors of large churches go to extreme lengths to prevent the average pew sitter from accessing certain information. For example, how many of you would fork over your hard earned bucks to help your pastor purchase a multi-million dollar *manse*? Few people would do so and that is why such pastors fight tooth and nail to never have their salary revealed to their church members.

What I don’t understand is James MacDonald’s apparent surprise that the court would not allow him to prevent the acquisition of the truth by the bloggers. Is MacDonald really that deluded? Why would he assume the court would allow the following stupid motions?

The first of these motions was a Emergency Motion for a Protective Order.  In short, this motion sought to have the judge “seal” any documents that had been returned thus far via the discovery process.  As you know, subpoenas had been sent to the following individuals: Brian White, Maida Korte, David Wisen and Rob Williams.  All parties, including the Plaintiffs, had already received copies of these documents that had been returned by White, Wisen and Williams; and thus all parties knew exactly what these documents contained.  MacDonald and Harvest were essentially asking the Judge to prevent these documents from being made public.

The second motion, which was a Motion to Stay Discovery, attempted to ask the court to put a halt to all further discovery until the three Motions to Dismiss were heard later this spring.   Put another way, the plaintiffs were attempting to have the Judge bar the defendants from conducting any further discovery until sometime after the month of March and/or April.

Why are those motions stupid? In the United States, defendants are allowed access to documentation from the defendants in order to prove that their judgements were based on available information and not made up lies. I pondered MacDonald’s motions the entire time I was in Israel. Why in the world did he think that he could block the bloggers from accessing relevant information? Was he not warned of this by his attorney? Was MacDonald living in an alternate universe, somehow believing that he would be exempt from such discovery?

Are James MacDonald and his elder board are *keeping secrets* from their church members?

It sure looks that way to me. Religion News Service posted Harvest Bible Chapel drops lawsuit against bloggers, writer.

Such lawsuits brought by churches against their critics are rare, according to Frank Sommerville, a Texas lawyer who assists churches in preventing litigation but never has worked with Harvest.

That’s “primarily because of just what’s happened here — you bring more attention to the critics, you bring more attention to the reporter’s story than if you had just responded with, ‘We deny everything,’ and just going on,” he said. “The litigation process escalates the dispute to a whole new level.”

By not providing the documents necessary to prove the bloggers’ and reporter’s stories false, the church is “basically conceding” that they’re accurate, Sommerville said.

Roys responded with a tweet linking to Harvest’s announcement, calling the lawsuit “shameful” and adding, “Strange. I thought they had nothing to hide.”

In a written statement shared with Religion News Service, Roys pointed out she had not yet published anything about the church at the time it filed its lawsuit against her. She simply had contacted Harvest for a response to the allegations made by former elders and staff.

“It seems Harvest’s decision to drop the suit was motivated by a desire to suppress the truth and maintain its secrets,” she said.

The Executive Committee of Elders didn’t clear things up.

Why would a group of so called Christian church leaders attempt to hide information from the defendants? And exactly what were they attempting to hide? I guess we will never know until someone leaks the information and you can bet that is going to happen. It already is.

Take a look at their “court case dropped” letter posted on the HBC website.

On advice of counsel, we still believe their actions to be illegal. However today the court ruled, contrary to expectation and legal precedent, that it would not stay further discovery while the case is under defendants’ motions to dismiss, nor would it restrict the publicizing of that discovery during the trial process.

Recent events have made it clear that any further private content subpoenaed from third and fourth parties will likely be publicized online.

It appears that they would have you believe that there is no legal precedent for allowing discovery by plaintiffs. Codswallop! Defendants have the right to prove their case. These elders are tipping their hand. They are scared to death that some information might be publicized by those confounded bloggers. I would certainly post anything I found out. What might that information be? Money? Who gets paid what?

They appear to be saying that this all about protecting their innocent friends. Such noble motives…

The result is that even if we filed a motion to reconsider, even if we amended the complaint to exclude private matters sensitive to some third parties, the court appears unwilling to protect our many friends, including those with whom we seek to reconcile. In good conscience we cannot knowingly subject innocent people

This looks like more nonsense to me. If I had a friend who was being unfairly maligned, I would be happy to testify. But, then again, I don’t have much to hide when it comes to issues of money and lifestyle expectations…

Once again, they mention their personal and organizational faults. I believe that this is where they were, are, and will continue to be, susceptible. I would not want to march into court knowing the many faults to which they have already admitted.

With this decision, we can again focus our energies on continued growth in personal and organizational faults we have owned, enduring what is false, and striving to mitigate the damage such attacks bring to our church family and friends.

They claim to want to meet with the former defendants to *reconcile.* Due to my experience in these matters,  I would suggest that the defendants not step foot in a room with these men. They have already proven their willingness to sue for no reason at all. If they really wanted to *reconcile,* they would not have started off with a lawsuit. These do not appear to be *nice* men

On 1/7/19  I wrote:

Some say an implosion is imminent.

They were correct. The MacDonald situation reminds me of what happened to Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill. I find it difficult to believe that MacDonald will last at HBC. In other words, he should prepare to experience a never-ending *sabbatical.*

Tomorrow, I plan to look at MacDonald’s sudden *sabbatical* in Naples, Florida, and his plan to headline, on occasion, at the HBC there. I hear he has obtained some nice digs in the area. Except…the local pastor said something along the lines of “No freaking way is he stepping into this pulpit.” He got fired….

James MacDonald: Pay the legal bills for TED and Roys and take a lengthy time out.

Comments

James MacDonald and Harvest Bible: What Don’t They Want You to Know? — 102 Comments

  1. How many members would volunteer their time and effort while the head pastor is pulling in tons of $$$, enough to hire plenty of extra staff but instead exploits the congregation’s good will and hoards the $$$ for himself/herself?

  2. You flipped the plaintiffs and defendants. Harvest sued, so they were the plaintiffs. Julie and the TED couples were the defendants. The defendants get discovery rights, so they can have full information with which to dispute the legal allegations leveled against them.

  3. In his comments on Sunday in Chicago, the elder mentioned the word “restoration”, which makes me think they don’t get it yet. The correct word is “resignation”.

  4. I sent Dee a message she’ll see when she’s awake about the plaintiffs and defendants.

  5. Over the next few weeks, I’ll be sharing short observations of my trip so you won’t get bored. After all, this is not a travel blog.

    Well, it’s not MY blog either, but I think I speak for more than myself when I say that it IS a community. We’re interested in you, Dee!

  6. And yes, it is the middle of the night in Scotland. I woke up with low blood sugar. Just eaten two satsumas and I’m going back to bed.

    ION, Serena lost to Karolina Pliskova who will play Naomi Osaka in the semifinals. The men’s final is Novak vs Rafa, obviously, but the women’s tournament is wide open this year.

  7. PC,

    “How many members would volunteer their time and effort while the head pastor is pulling in tons of $$$, enough to hire plenty of extra staff but instead exploits the congregation’s good will and hoards the $$$ for himself/herself?”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    not sure how many, but they will all have spinning spirals in their eyes.

    i’m amazed… the deeper in to church culture, the more brainwashed. including the professionals.

  8. Nick Bulbeck,

    “Well, it’s not MY blog either, but I think I speak for more than myself when I say that it IS a community. We’re interested in you, Dee!”
    +++++++++++

    here here!

    and in vicarious traveling.

  9. james:
    How many text threads and group emails regarding the mishandling “I call it cover up” of Youth Pastor Paxton Singers Child Sexual Exploitation of multiple underage boys do you think were included in the documents in Julies possesion?

    I also think their protection of Paxton Singer was the main reason for them hiding their information.

    From what Julie Roys has said, it was a day or two after she called about Singer that the lawsuit was issued. That was the information they were trying to keep hidden. They did something very wrong in that situation, and they didn’t want it to come out.

    It might even be that there’s another predator in that church, and that information came out during the process with Singer.

    I’ve been to megachurches where the pastor’s salary was no secret, but it was constantly harped that churches should compensate like the rest of the world. Of course, this was only spoken about the lead pastor’s salary, because unless you were related to the lead pastor, you got paid beans.

    I do think Macdonald and the HBC elders were not very smart at all about how they handled the lawsuit. And I can’t help but wonder if they found a lawyer who just told them what they wanted to hear.

    The whole thing was filled with stupid moves that makes me believe they might think they have power, but they don’t have the smarts to maintain that power, and their crumbling was inevitable. Surely, Macdonald is the one who puts everything into motion, but if those elders were smart, they would have gotten out of there like some of the others.

  10. This calls to mind a famous saying attributed to Churchill, that “in wartime the truth is so precious that she must be attended by a bodyguard of lies.”

    The application to financial disclosure in mega-ministry is so obvious it scarcely needs to be noted.

  11. https://twitter.com/BiblicalJustice/status/1087907710555742208?s=20

    This links to a small sample of a text thread that included at least one executive pastor.

    It was from late January 2018 and confirms that the church could not rule out victims on any of it’s 7 campuses.

    How did Harvest respond? They “warned” a small targeted group of parents with vague commincations that did not indicate DCFS was called or even mention the sexual nature of the accusations.

    Further, In those same comminications Harvest called Paxton “a great young man” and noted he was invited to continue worshipping in Aurora where they would be offering him care!

    Time will tell if HBC checked enough boxes with DCFS to pass the legal test.

    Those of us watching closely know there is great pobability that the lawsuit itself was geared to silence those that were ready to report on this cover up and that it was dropped as soon as the judge denied Harvests attempt to surpress documents.

    James Sabatical is nothing short of a COWARDICE RETREAT. He is an evil man that must be forced to stand and account for all that he “lords” over.

  12. Given the precedent of suing fellow believers that HBC has established (they are also IIRC suing a lender with [judging by its name] a Christian corporate identity) does it follow that:

    the victims of P Singer could bring suit against HBC?

    That would really blow things up. No hiding from discovery then.

  13. “I find it difficult to believe that MacDonald will last at HBC. In other words, he should prepare to experience a never-ending *sabbatical.*” (Dee)

    There is no way that you can hold a narcissist down after they have experienced the limelight, absolute power, and lots of money … and got away with it for years as a “pastor”! Expect a comeback … for example, Driscoll.

  14. “James MacDonald and Harvest Bible: What Don’t They Want You to Know?”

    Well, these religious scandals usually fall into one of three categories: power, sex, or money … sometimes all three. The world loves to hear about the misbehavings of the church, which gives them yet another reason to say “See, there’s nothing to it.”

    “My house shall be called a house of prayer. But you have turned it into a den of thieves!” (Jesus) I long for the day when the world accuses the church of being a house of prayer, rather than a den of power, sex and money.

  15. The foolishness and folly of this lawsuit has finally come home to roost, and people can now see what truly matters to the leadership at HBC. Fortunately, our God is the final Judge in ALL matters and His discovery process is completely unavoidable and clearly explained to us in Hebrews chapter 4:12-13,

    “For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.”

    My continued prayer is that the congregations at HBC will dust themselves off and flee from such a toxic and un-Christlike environment…including the poor people at their church in Naples that not only lost their pastor, but now appear to be stuck with MacDonald while he is on his ‘sabbatical!’

  16. ishyI do think Macdonald and the HBC elders were not very smart at all about how they handled the lawsuit. And I can’t help but wonder if they found a lawyer who just told them what they wanted to hear.

    This is very often the case. As a younger attorney, I sometimes failed to exercise appropriate “client control” and got carried along with their narrative—and then was thrashed in court. It’s an embarrassment, still shuddering over one case many years ago that was dismissed pretrial, the look on the judge’s face when he said, with rolling eyes: “So THAT’s your position, counselor?” But it’s something that any decent attorney learns when they’re dealing with a strong-willed client who’s used to getting their way—you have to call the shots as far as the legal side goes, because very seldom does your client understand diddly squat about court procedure.

    ishyThe whole thing was filled with stupid moves that makes me believe they might think they have power, but they don’t have the smarts to maintain that power, and their crumbling was inevitable. Surely, Macdonald is the one who puts everything into motion, but if those elders were smart, they would have gotten out of there like some of the others.

    Just hubris. Too many of these celeb fellows live in a fantasy kingdom where they get to push people around and subordinates cower, where the stupidest ideas imaginable are exalted as brilliance. People like James MacDonald remind me very much of “Rabadash the Ridiculous” from the Chronicles of Narnia. Sheltered in a world in which they come to believe they’re the most brilliant, most feared, most powerful one around—and then reality hits.

  17. Vinnie,

    You are absolutely correct. I’m trying to figure out how I did that since I do know the difference. Chalk it up to jet lag and a bad cold. Thank you for catching that.

  18. Max: “I find it difficult to believe that MacDonald will last at HBC. In other words, he should prepare to experience a never-ending *sabbatical.*” (Dee)

    He’s already preparing his escape route — to Florida.

    Secrest has outlived his usefulness and has been Purged to clear the Lead Pastor post for The Great One.

  19. ishy: I do think Macdonald and the HBC elders were not very smart at all about how they handled the lawsuit. And I can’t help but wonder if they found a lawyer who just told them what they wanted to hear.

    First rule of CELEBRITY:
    Nobody tells The CELEBRITY anything other than what The CELEBRITY wants to hear.
    i.e. Flattery Flattery Flattery Flattery Flattery Flattery Flattery Flattery…

  20. I find myself vacillating between pity and dismay for those who do, have or ever will attend a Harvest or similar church. We all understand the lures – the hip atmosphere, the free concerts, the superlative quality of events, etc. But are those really enough to satisfy a child of God for long? I have many relatives and friends who were early Creekers, but none of them stayed. They were drawn in by all of the excitement, the (then) new style of music, the ‘bigness’ of it all – but in the end, even with small groups, they all came to miss ‘real’ church. Even if they didn’t say so outright, they all came to see that this was something not ‘real’, and as fun and exciting as it was, all of the ministries it claimed to do so broadly and effectively, did not meet the definition of ekklesia. And maybe, just maybe, some of them saw through the aura of celebrity that could not but be detrimental to those who soaked in its limelight week after week.

    Yes, I truly pity those who put their trust in Willow, Harvest and other Megas, for I think, in the long run, they will all discover the same sad truth: these are institutions of men, built upon the foundations of power, celebrity and wealth. To some degree, anyone can preach the true gospel, and many can do so in a very entertaining, charismatic and convincing manner. Just as can many celebrities in Hollywood. But such acting is not real. Talented, but not real. Anyone who looks to the words of Jesus, with whatever interpretive take you may prefer, is unlikely to come to the conclusion that a huge, hierarchical, prosperous institution is what Jesus was seeking to establish. Any who think that God’s ekklesia is the same as what today is called ‘church’ needs to think things through a little more.

  21. PC:
    How many members would volunteer their time and effort while the head pastor is pulling in tons of $$$, enough to hire plenty of extra staff but instead exploits the congregation’s good will and hoards the $$$ for himself/herself?

    A Dragon HAS to have The Biggest Hoard.
    Bigger than all the other Dragons.

  22. TS00: To some degree, anyone can preach the true gospel, and many can do so in a very entertaining, charismatic and convincing manner. Just as can many celebrities in Hollywood. But such acting is not real. Talented, but not real.

    Remember the Koine Greek word for “Actor”?

  23. TS00,

    In addition, I find myself wondering, with some degree of sadness and alarm, what happens when the modern ‘church’ collapses? What happens to the thousands, (millions?) of people who have never known anything but stadium church Enertainship? There aren’t even many ‘true’ alternatives left anymore. Are they going to fall into the laps of Mohler, and the smaller, more traditional SBC churches he has taken over? The ones who teach a different gospel, of limited atonement, male superiority and legalistic, unquestioning submission to elders – the last of which the Megas apparently copied.

    I, and many here, have been functioning as ‘Dones’, working through the trauma and adjustments of realigning lifelong habits and beliefs. Are the millions of sheep who have been trustingly following these wolves going to do the same? Or are some going to walk away from faith altogether, while the rest look for whatever alternative they can find to follow? If I was Reformed, perhaps I could just shrug and say, ‘We always knew they were not of us’, but what if you actually believe God loves all of these people, and cares about what happens ‘after the fall’ just as he did at least twice before?

    Who is going to minister to the needs of these confused, hurting and not well-grounded people? Who is going to deal with the genuine trauma of finding out the institution and leaders you most trusted were not trustworthy? It is a very painful, traumatic experience, and it seems, in a nutshell, to be how Satan deceives and wounds even, if possible, the elect of God.

  24. Law Prof: As a younger attorney, I sometimes failed to exercise appropriate “client control” and got carried along with their narrative — and then was thrashed in court.

    HBC members have also fallen victim to buying the narrative, not realizing that the court of Heaven will send a “thrashing” to both pulpit and pew which drifts off course. God eventually exercises client control for folks who waste their time doing church without Him.

  25. dee,

    Re: “Avoid JFK if you are planning on visiting Israel or any of the Arab countries. They shunt you into the most ridiculous queue to go through an extra check point.”

    Was it JFK or perhaps another cause or two? El Al is determined to take all the time it needs to keep terrorists off its jets. Also, I’m not sure of your travel dates, but TSA lost funding December 22, and some airports have consolidated security checkpoints. (There is conflicting info about effects on JFK.) Maybe El Al was trying to compensate.

  26. Yesterday, I came down with a bad cold and laryngitis. I was not myself but I didn’t want to skip another day of posting. I apologize for any confusion. My husband now has a cold as well. It was a 12 hour flight from Tel Aviv to JFK. My guess is that we caught it there.

  27. Friend,

    You may be correct although one nice guy who goes back and forth between the Middle East and JFK says this is a common problem. People in the lines were not just from El Al. It was all Middle Eastern flights. When we were directed there, security asked us one question “Where are you going.” The moment I said Israel they pointed to this line.

    My daughter flew via Air Canada thru Toronto and another couple flew thru Atlanta. They did not have a similar problem.

    However, the lines for getting bags were awful. They had 4 flights coming into RDU and all 4 were on the same baggage thing. We waited for over one hour.

    I spoke to a security guard at JFK on Sunday. He said that the TSA security lines were awful because the workers were calling in. I feel sorry fr all of those who are not getting paid. Thankfully, we have Global Pass which I recommend to everyone who travels. It includes TSA rechecks. Even though the regular lines were bad, we flew thru customs coming back into the US

  28. TS00: Who is going to minister to the needs of these confused, hurting and not well-grounded people? Who is going to deal with the genuine trauma of finding out the institution and leaders you most trusted were not trustworthy? It is a very painful, traumatic experience, and it seems, in a nutshell, to be how Satan deceives and wounds even, if possible, the elect of God.

    My hope is that when this happens, true believers everywhere will respond as our Master did in Matthew 9:36, “Seeing the people, He felt compassion for them, because they were distressed and dispirited like sheep without a shepherd.” These folks need Christ’s love and compassion, and believers need to extend it to them, or the ranks of the ‘dones’ will continue to climb. I wish in my heart of hearts that people who use trickery, ear-tickling and gimmicks to fill pews would see the enormous collateral damage sustained on those who are burned by them.

  29. dee: … bad cold and laryngitis … My husband now has a cold as well …

    Breathing air full of pathogens on international flights … I know far too well from my business travel before retiring. Hope you both start feeling better soon. Welcome back.

  30. One thing Harvest Bible Fellowship certainly won’t want you to know is the cricket score.

    Windies won the toss and decided to bat in the First Test. They’re 89-1 at lunch and will not be at all unhappy with their morning’s work. They certainly won’t be unhappy at winning the toss – it’s a real batting track there.

  31. TS00: In addition, I find myself wondering, with some degree of sadness and alarm, what happens when the modern ‘church’ collapses? What happens to the thousands, (millions?) of people who have never known anything but stadium church Enertainship? There aren’t even many ‘true’ alternatives left anymore. Are they going to fall into the laps of Mohler, and the smaller, more traditional SBC churches he has taken over? The ones who teach a different gospel, of limited atonement, male superiority and legalistic, unquestioning submission to elders – the last of which the Megas apparently copied.

    This is something I have wrestled with and pondered as well. When our little SBC church was nearly destroyed by an over-zealous YRR ‘Mohler-ite’ pastor, I realized that what is now considered ‘traditional’ Southern Baptists are becoming a dying breed. However, we need to be encouraged that God always has a remnant, and that there’s at least 7,000 men who have not bowed down to Baal!
    I’ve read the end of the Book–and God wins! 🙂

  32. Max,

    I don’t normally comment on the topic itself here but for this one I’ll jump in. I flew 1 to 3 times a week back in the 80s. Constant colds. Ditto my boss. He said he read there were 400 or more different cold viruses. So if you fly a lot you get exposed to a lot of them. And at some point you will have had most of them.

    I think I’m there. I get a cold now only every year or two. And fly 10 to 20 times per year.

    Moral? If you want to fly a lot when older and not be sick, fly a lot when younger. 🙂

  33. …how many of you would fork over your hard earned bucks to help your pastor purchase a multi-million dollar *manse*?

    The traditional manse would not attract celebrity wannabes. It is owned by the church. Pastor and family must live there and must leave at the end of pastor’s tenure. The arrangement allows churches to pay the pastor a lower salary. Pastors have no control over church decisions about replacing 40-year-old kitchen appliances, and they ask at their peril. They might be required to host weekly coffees, meetings, meals, etc. Everybody in the church knows where the manse is, and wants to peek inside–coincidentally scrutinizing the children.

    Many on TWW oppose paying clergy; that’s a fine principle. But the US does have a lot of clergy working overtime on pastoral duties, while their families may face constant observation and judgment.

  34. TS00,

    “Who is going to minister to the needs of these confused, hurting and not well-grounded people? ”
    +++++++++++++

    i dunno…. all this “care” from professional christians messed things up in the first place. being told what to think, being tricked, manipulated,…

    i cringe at the thought of being ‘ministered to’ or ‘cared for’. it is impossible for me to conceive of these things as not ‘being controlled’.

    i tend to think people need to be left alone for a good long while.

  35. Root 66,

    “These folks need Christ’s love and compassion, and believers need to extend it to them,”
    +++++++++++++

    doctrine-free

  36. Nick Bulbeck: One thing Harvest Bible Fellowship certainly won’t want you to know is the cricket score.

    Sadly, you’re right. When anyone dares to demand this info at Harvest, the answer is always .

  37. “… how many of you would fork over your hard earned bucks to help your pastor purchase a multi-million dollar *manse*? …” (Dee)

    Such is the spell cast on mega-church members. The cult of personality is too overpowering. “Shucks, I know he is living in a big house and he pushes people around a bit. I don’t care. His teaching speaks directly to me. The band is so entertaining. My kids love the youth group. The coffee shop and bookstore are cool. We’re one big happy family here.”

  38. My father warned me when I was a young man “Son, avoid churches where the pastor has slick black hair and wears a gold choker chain.” Now the pulpits are full of spiky hair and tight pants … with black leather jackets and tattoos here and there. Different look from my early church days, but same spirit.

  39. I attended Harvest for 10 years I left last year, DO NOT be fooled, these elders are sleazebags, I left Last year after meeting with a number of pastors then with Elder chairman Steve Huston (the one who called some former Elders “satanic to the core”)He is a slippery weasel and lied directly to my face about Jmacs alleged downsized lifestyle, and many other things…I do not believe that Jmac or the Elders at Harvest have any intentions of repentance ….I believe they want forgiveness without repentance. They can’t even tell people what they’ve done wrong, talking with these guys is like talking to a lawyer…not brothers….Jmac and his Elder board and probably many pastors who turned a blind eye need to Resign, they have disqualified themselves from leadership by bringing reproach to the Body of Christ, and Timothy and Titus tell us that shepard’s and overseers MUST be above Reproach and these guys Are Not…I would love to be wrong about this but sadly I don’t believe I am.

  40. Dan keller: I do not believe that Jmac or the Elders at Harvest have any intentions of repentance … I believe they want forgiveness without repentance.

    “The chief danger that confronts the coming century will be religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, politics without God, heaven without hell.” (William Booth, Founder of Salvation Army)

    We are there folks … we are witnessing a fulfillment of Booth’s prophecy.

  41. Doubtful: Cry me a river.

    Good suggestion. Done, now rehydrating. If you have time, I’d be interested in knowing what you object to. We all have different backgrounds and assumptions.

  42. Dan keller…talking with these guys is like talking to a lawyer…

    Sometimes talking with an abusive leader is like going into Alice’s Wonderland, they can be so deceptive. They’ll tell you X, then tell you anti-X, then turn around and tell you they said neither…or maybe they’ll tell you they said both, but then deny that there’s any contradiction. I’ve seen it before face-to-face, have had multiple conversations private with abusive leaders, before I knew they truly were abusive, when I thought they were just brothers or sisters acting in good faith, but just honestly mistaken. They’ll take your concern and turn it on its head, turn it against you, they’ll lie to your face…and call you a liar, they’ll say things that are completely insane…and call you insane.

    At the risk of overspiritualizing things in some people’s eyes, it’s my opinion that sometimes it’s simply a powerful demonic spirit you’re up against, because having seen it in action, it doesn’t seem like any sort of behavior that any human being would devise.

  43. ION: Cricket

    At stumps on day 1 of the First Test at the Kensington Oval, the Windies closed on 264-8. A flurry of wickets in the final session from Anderson and, in the last over of the day, Stokes, swung the match quite some way towards England. The home side lost 4 wickets for 24 in the final 7 overs.

    Remember: you won’t hear this from HBC. If you want Gospel cricket news, where else are you going to go? You’re going to end up at Wartburg, or at something that is basically the same under a different label.

  44. Friend: Good suggestion. Done, now rehydrating. If you have time, I’d be interested in knowing what you object to. We all have different backgrounds and assumptions.

    Poking my nose in where it wasn’t invited, of course, Doubtful is obviously criticizing any notion that the clergy in this country are to be particularly pitied, knowing the career they’ve chosen going in, knowing that they and their family are going to be scrutinized—as they should be.

    Since “pastor” in this culture has become (wrongly and inaccurately) synonymous with “church leader” and “teacher”, it’s also a given that anyone who assumes they have a right to teach a group of fellow adult Christians what God’s saying about matters better understand that that same God was also very clear in telling those people that the standards for them are going to be higher—so just live with it.

    Doubtful might also be thinking about the standard set by the Disciples (who, far as I know, never called themselves “pastor”) as laid out by Jesus: that if you want to be first, you have to be prepared to be last, if you want to be a leader, you do so by becoming a humble, scraping servant of all, and that, at the end of the day, you better be prepared to be beaten, lied about, tortured, crucified, beheaded, etc.

    So I guess Doubtful is just doubtful about anyone who wants particular sympathy for the clergy given that many get a free house and thinks that, given what Jesus could not have been more clear about, it’s a little bit silly to cry about old appliances—and by the way, I sincerely doubt that many pastors in the U.S. are having to make do with fridges from 1979. If you know one, please cite your reference.

  45. “I tried to help one young teen who was going to Dubai to study agriculture but to no avail.”

    Studying agriculture in Dubai? Nothing grows there. The only thing getting planted is 9Marx churches!

  46. Perhaps MacDonald, rather than being deluded, was just ignorant of how a defamation law suit works? The discovery period is about both sides gathering facts, which are obtained via those formal requests for information that MacDonald and the HBF seemingly want hidden. And his ignorance extends well beyond any law suit protocol…? Has he ever dealt with a FOIA?
    Most “pastors” (even the mega-church pooh-bah types) just don’t know about these things. Yet, it seems like someone among the elders should have known that discovery includes forking over information such as salaries.

    Doesn’t it seem that a law suit was a knee-jerk reaction by HBF/MacDonald? These folks are not famous for measured behavior.

  47. Law Prof,
    Thank you. I use “pastor” as a general term for clergy. In my opinion, only the clergy member signs up for scrutiny. Some seminarians’ spouses have to undergo counseling during the ordination process, but I think spouses get more judgment than they deserve. Congregations have extra-Biblical ideas about spouses, such as what sort of work (if any) a clergy wife is allowed to do. I strongly disagree that clergy children should be scrutinized.

    I have known poor clergy members my whole life. They know what they signed up for, and they never complain. I see their tiny apartments and well-worn clothing. One local manse looks nice from outside, but the interior was shabby for decades, until members leaned on the budget committee. The family never complained, and they were grateful for refurbishments.

    No, Jesus would not complain about an old stove. From that viewpoint, the idea of a “free house” sounds like crazy luxury, but most American clergy are not itinerant preachers. If 40% of Americans could not cover a $400 emergency, it’s safe to say that many clergy are in the same boat. That’s where most would want to be.

    Gazillionaires are not the norm. A new PCA document shows presbytery minimum effective salary as $40,000/year, median $59,100, and “large church highly compensated” $176,000. See page 9:
    http://www.pensions.org/file/our-role-and-purpose/the-connectional-church/living-by-the-gospel/Documents/pln-619.pdf/

    Cover quotes I Cor 9:14, “In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.”

  48. Law Prof,

    We appear to have encounter the same people-or spirits. It is so confusing and disorienting. Eventually I concluded I didn’t really understand what was a work but we were not operating from the same reality or assumptions.

    I have not been here much. Does anyone know how Okrapod is doing? I appreciated her perspectives that challenged my thinking and assumptions.

  49. Law Prof: Sometimes talking with an abusive leader is like going into Alice’s Wonderland, they can be so deceptive. They’ll tell you X, then tell you anti-X, then turn around and tell you they said neither…or maybe they’ll tell you they said both, but then deny that there’s any contradiction. I’ve seen it before face-to-face, have had multiple conversations private with abusive leaders, before I knew they truly were abusive, when I thought they were just brothers or sisters acting in good faith, but just honestly mistaken. They’ll take your concern and turn it on its head, turn it against you, they’ll lie to your face…and call you a liar, they’ll say things that are completely insane…and call you insane.

    At the risk of overspiritualizing things in some people’s eyes, it’s my opinion that sometimes it’s simply a powerful demonic spirit you’re up against, because having seen it in action, it doesn’t seem like any sort of behavior that any human being would devise.

    My experience as well, and, IIRC, you come from a similar conservative, Reformed background, so talk or even consideration of demons or spiritual warfare was not really even in our kit. I still hesitate to even suggest it, and yet . . . it is difficult to explain such clever, controlling, deceptive narcissists that masquerade as angels of light any other way.

  50. “At the risk of overspiritualizing things in some people’s eyes, it’s my opinion that sometimes it’s simply a powerful demonic spirit you’re up against, because having seen it in action, it doesn’t seem like any sort of behavior that any human being would devise.”

    This is Harvest under the Macdonalds.

    Deceptive Fear Mongers for Christ…

    AKA Satanic at the core

  51. This whole thing is so discouraging. I come from three generations of ministers, none of whom got rich, or even moderately wealthy, through the ministry. I’ve seen plenty of hucksters and charlatans, most of whom are easy to spot a mile away. But when we moved to Chicago, we had a really hard time finding a dynamic church that preached from the Bible. Even after months of searching, no luck. So when we found HBC, we figured that was as good as it got in ChiTown.

    Long story short, after a couple years we were growing increasingly uneasy about a lot of things at HBC, even though we’d never heard of the scandals from a few years ago. The lawsuit triggered our own reading of Julie Roys and TED, which pushed us into the red zone. MacDonald’s ignoring Advent to berate his congregation to give ’till it hurts was the last straw. So we left HBC and are looking around now, we think we have gotten lucky thanks to a tip from a co-worker.

    But overall, it seems that the American Christian church is very sick. Between heretical mainline Protestants, homosexuality in the Catholic clergy, and generalized corruption endemic to evangelical independent megachurches, there’s not a lot of cause for long-term optimism. Guess all we can do is pray and try to be responsible Christian churchgoers, holding our pastors and elders accountable as the Bible commands.

    Does anyone know whether HBC attendance has taken a hit lately?

  52. Root 66: This is something I have wrestled with and pondered as well.When our little SBC church was nearly destroyed by an over-zealous YRR ‘Mohler-ite’ pastor, I realized that what is now considered ‘traditional’ Southern Baptists are becoming a dying breed.However, we need to be encouraged that God always has a remnant, and that there’s at least 7,000 men who have not bowed down to Baal!
    I’ve read the end of the Book–and God wins!

    Spoiler alert! “)

  53. Law Prof,

    TS00,

    Gaslighting is a pretty standard technique of intelligent sociopaths in all settings, whether secular or religious. It’s disturbing to think that people with sociopathic traits (deficiency of both empathy and conscience — this does IMO seem to have some overlap with the private reports of the behavior of the person in view in the OP) who are skilled “edifitainment” performers could become so powerful within not just a church or an association of churches, but more broadly.

  54. L. Alexander:
    Perhaps MacDonald, rather than being deluded, was just ignorant of how a defamation law suit works?

    Most “pastors” (even the mega-church pooh-bah types) just don’t know about these things.Yet, it seems like someone among the elders should have known that discovery includes forking over information such as salaries.

    Doesn’t it seem that a law suit was a knee-jerk reaction by HBF/MacDonald? These folks are not famous for measured behavior.

    From what I have read, TED was a bit surprised by the suit because their exertions had been winding down; they were less of a prospective threat than they had been in prior years. Julie Roys had not yet published anything when she was sued.

    It’s IMO conceivable that the purpose of the suit was strategic in that its intended audience was not the named parties, but others who have not yet made disclosures. Naming the wives of the TED principals looks to me like a menacing measure, and again it suggests that the purpose might have been to frighten others (and those others’ wives).

    It certainly in retrospect was a calamity for the plaintiffs; they demonstrated to the world that they appear to be unable to tolerate discovery. Anyone with an arguable claim against them might be able to leverage that. Is “creating a toxic work environment” actionable under civil law?

  55. Samuel Conner,

    Not only that, but the lawsuit gave Julie Roys access to documents she would not otherwise have. So now she’s putting together another report, this one’s likely to be at least as damaging as her first. And it’s the lawsuit that really prompted me and my wife to investigate HBC in detail, leading to our resignation as members. We can’t be the only ones.

    The frustrating thing is, no matter how many exposes are published, MacDonald will always have his devoted followers, who apparently lack the spiritual maturity to realize when they’ve been had.

  56. Todd Wilhelm: Studying agriculture in Dubai? Nothing grows there. The only thing getting planted is 9Marx churches!

    HA! Good one Todd.
    Like going to Tahiti to study glacier ice cores.

  57. Samuel Conner: It’s IMO conceivable that the purpose of the suit was strategic in that its intended audience was not the named parties, but others who have not yet made disclosures. Naming the wives of the TED principals looks to me like a menacing measure, and again it suggests that the purpose might have been to frighten others (and those others’ wives).

    Or was it possibly a decoy from the other suit? Whatever it was all about, there is little doubt they never intended to go through with it. But did they truly underestimate the damage it would do to their reputation, or, as I have asked before, does someone actually want to destroy this church, or bring discredit to the church in general? Well, someone does, and he is as happy to seduce well-meaning men (as I am sure some of the elders were) as send in self-serving narcissists.

  58. What is even more surprising is that the council for HBC and James McDonald took the money instead of doing his job and informing them that this would most certainly be part of the early outcome of filing such a suit. I guess when you hire a DUI attorney for this sort of a case the results speak for themselves.

  59. Law Prof,

    “At the risk of overspiritualizing things in some people’s eyes, it’s my opinion that sometimes it’s simply a powerful demonic spirit you’re up against, because having seen it in action, it doesn’t seem like any sort of behavior that any human being would devise.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    or maybe it’s what a God complex looks like, in tension with pressure to have godly behavior.

    They resolve the tensions by pretending and lying (deceiving themselves, while manipulating and gaslighting others), so they can maintain the pretense of being both God-like and godly.

    i wonder if it’s subconscious. or calculated.

    either way, it’s sick.

    beware the christian who is into submission to authority (whether the authority figure or the submitter)

    even now, some HBC folks still champion submission to authority as part of righteousness while they experience the fallout and devastation of having done just that. oblivious to the cognitive dissonance.

    They were brainwashed by the James MacDonald machine.

  60. exharvestmember,

    “who apparently lack the spiritual maturity to realize when they’ve been had.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    they’ve been brainwashed.

    wondering if one can have some spiritual maturity and still be brainwashed.

    if so, sorting it all out will not be easy. a major detox is required.

    i almost think one would have to let go of everything, beliefs-wise… at least down to God is, and God is good. and then rebuild from there, slowly, circumspectly. if at all.

    there’s no rush. kindness is what really matters anyway. that’s not hard to figure out.

    complicated doctrine and all these nebulous things that are at risk of being ‘satanic to the core’ are fabrications, worthy of a sneeze and nothing more.

  61. Friend,

    I guess I’ve been around way too many pastors and their families to pity the”sacrifces”.

    I hope the ones you know are honest, caring, and do good in the world.

    The ones I’ve met, some celebrities and some of Tiny churches were not good people. They were selfish,manipulative, petty and many were lazy. Not all, but most. And almost all of them felt entitled to others people’s property and money.

  62. Samuel Conner,

    “Naming the wives of the TED principals looks to me like a menacing measure, and again it suggests that the purpose might have been to frighten others (and those others’ wives).”
    ++++++++++++++++

    unconscionable.

    i think it has backfired. anyone read Anne Frer’s story on twitter? she was a wife.

    …and oh, how i hate that word. totally dehumanizing, in christian culture.

    anne frers is talking. paving the way for others to tell their true stories of dehumanization by the leaders and culture at Harvest Bible Chapel.

  63. Friend,

    “But the US does have a lot of clergy working overtime on pastoral duties”
    ++++++++++++++++

    my husband and I worked full time and each worked an additional 15 hours minimum every week at church as volunteers. it enriched the church.

    on the other hand, it all got way out of hand. (excuse the two ‘hands’ in the same sentence).

    they asked me to put together a “Volunteer’s Handbook” — took me at least 10 hours, till the wee hours of a few nights. they wanted the manual to include things like “make breakfast for the pastors and staff”.

    the entitlement was breathtaking.

    they called it ‘serving’.

    let’s serve people who sleep in the cold and go to bed hungry, instead.

    pastors should put in overtime if they expect their parishioners to do the same.

  64. exharvestmember: Guess all we can do is pray and try to be responsible Christian churchgoers, holding our pastors and elders accountable as the Bible commands

    Completely agree.

  65. Doubtful: I guess I’ve been around way too many pastors and their families to pity the”sacrifces”.

    I hope the ones you know are honest, caring, and do good in the world.

    Thank you so much for responding. I have also suffered at the hands of rogues and extremists. I’ve fled and returned. But yes, good clergy are out there, living humbly and serving well.

  66. elastigirl: they wanted the manual to include things like “make breakfast for the pastors and staff”.

    the entitlement was breathtaking.

    they called it ‘serving’.

    let’s serve people who sleep in the cold and go to bed hungry, instead.

    pastors should put in overtime if they expect their parishioners to do the same.

    Expecting breakfast? Warped.

    Volunteers should be invited, no strings attached. Clergy should expect to hear no, and be grateful for every minute given to the church. Volunteers want to give with joy or at least satisfaction. They will thrive if appreciated and not taken for granted.

  67. Deborah:
    Law Prof,

    We appear to have encounter the same people-or spirits. It is so confusing and disorienting. Eventually I concluded I didn’t really understand what was a work but we were not operating from the same reality or assumptions.

    It has the effect of brainwashing you, if you let it. The problem is many times they won’t let you in on their assumptions. Once you understand them, what they personally are and what their underlying assumptions are, it all fits together. But until you gain that understanding, it’s like some crazy world where all the normal rules are turned on their heads—or a puzzle with half the pieces missing.

    So here it is:

    1). Many clergy think they’re God’s chosen to speak on His behalf. They know more than you, they are the oracles, they cast the vision. Even if they do terrible things, they are still in the right, because they’re the men of God. This is why when they file frivolous lawsuits and build themselves mansions on donated funds or are involved in covering up child abuse—or abusing the children themselves, they just always refer you back to David’s sin and insist on a complete pass for their own behavior. I mean, did not David remain as king? Therefore, they should remain as pastor. They are the ones “after God’s own heart”, so by definition they CANNOT be wrong. Since they cannot be wrong, you cannot be right if you oppose them. They believe that you are stupid, blind sheep who must have them, or you’ll die. Anyone who tries to stop them must be of the devil—and therefore, they must be destroyed.

    They can’t just come out and tell you you’re stupid and tell you what they’re doing when they’re consolidating power and destroying all oppositions and slandering people and ruining lives to do it, because you wouldn’t understand the higher call they’re serving. You are too stupid. So it’s OK to lie to you and to hide their true intentions—it’s for your own good.

    2). A very high percentage of church leaders (and almost certainly many who seek celebrity status), have no conscience; among clergy, it’s hundreds of percent higher than in the general population. Among some clergy demographics, it over a thousand percent higher than among the general population. People with these conditions aren’t just confused people, they’re evil people—the Bible speaks of those with “seared consciences”—there you go. This was confirmed in a recent academic study put together by Dr. Puls and Dr. Ball. You could google it.

  68. Friend,

    Once upon a time I was a paid member of the clergy. Part time. $12,000 a year (though I got health care benefits, which was a big thing at the time). This was about a decade and a half ago around the time I was briefly considering full time ministry—I soon thereafter went into full time teaching at the college. The head pastor made $43,000 a year plus got the parsonage, which was a modest, but decent little three bedroom. Of course we weren’t affluent or anywhere close, my $12,000 for 1/2 time work was probably equivalent to $15,000 to $18,000 today. So I get what it is to be on staff and not making big bucks. Tell you the truth, neither I nor head pastor complained about the pay and we were able to get by, though I had to work part time at the college to make ends meet, but so what? It wasn’t exactly hardship.

    Most clergy live a modest, but decent existence. Some are moderately affluent, some are quite rich. But basically all of them do so, at least in this country, without the extreme privation and denial that their predecessors had to undergo back in the First Century (and as they must do in many parts of the world today). I have been there—done that and I can say with some degree of experience that I am not shedding tears for anyone who gets paid one red cent for doing something that all of us should be striving to do anyway: serve the Lord.

  69. Dee, don’t feel bad. Lawyers get plaintiff and defendant screwed up all the time too. This gets especially confusing when appeals interrupt the trial, and the plaintiff perhaps becomes a respondent in the appeal.

    I remember one time in my legal ethics class, my professor told me he defended a client one time from a malpractice suit by both sides of a divorce. How can you be guilty of malpractice in both sides of a divorce? He showed up in court and found out he was representing both sides.

  70. TS00: In addition, I find myself wondering, with some degree of sadness and alarm, what happens when the modern ‘church’ collapses? What happens to the thousands, (millions?) of people who have never known anything but stadium church Enertainship? There aren’t even many ‘true’ alternatives left anymore. Are they going to fall into the laps of Mohler, and the smaller, more traditional SBC churches he has taken over? The ones who teach a different gospel, of limited atonement, male superiority and legalistic, unquestioning submission to elders – the last of which the Megas apparently copied.

    The true church is led by the Holy Spirit and requires no form or structure at all. What we need now is to take advantage of the prophesied vast increase in travel and communication we have seen in these latter days to enable Christian community via a peer-to-peer egalitarian network model. I have ideas for how to do this and market it, but I am waiting for my business to grow enough to fund it. Basically the church needs to become formless, Art of War style, with a network that coordinates for spontaneous and outrageous displays of Love to people who need some, and for love feasts with each other, at arbitrary scales based on personal networks. All money is direct donation to the one who needs it from the one who earned it, or for single events. Decontaminate Christianity of hierarchy, excessive dogma, authoritarianism, and money, and all that’s left will be the things that please God.

  71. elastigirl: or maybe it’s what a God complex looks like, in tension with pressure to have godly behavior.

    They resolve the tensions by pretending and lying (deceiving themselves, while manipulating and gaslighting others), so they can maintain the pretense of being both God-like and godly.

    i wonder if it’s subconscious. or calculated.

    either way, it’s sick.

    beware the christian who is into submission to authority (whether the authority figure or the submitter)

    even now, some HBC folks still champion submission to authority as part of righteousness while they experience the fallout and devastation of having done just that. oblivious to the cognitive dissonance.

    They were brainwashed by the James MacDonald machine.

    elastigirl: they’ve been brainwashed.

    wondering if one can have some spiritual maturity and still be brainwashed.

    if so, sorting it all out will not be easy. a major detox is required.

    i almost think one would have to let go of everything, beliefs-wise… at least down to God is, and God is good. and then rebuild from there, slowly, circumspectly. if at all.

    there’s no rush. kindness is what really matters anyway. that’s not hard to figure out.

    complicated doctrine and all these nebulous things that are at risk of being ‘satanic to the core’ are fabrications, worthy of a sneeze and nothing more.

    This is so eerily like my experience I feel as if you have a camera into my soul.

    You think you are too ‘smart’ to be brainwashed. Then you wake up. And everyone you know and love thinks they are too smart to be brainwashed. Sadly you must be willing to give up all, and start over in replacing all of the received traditions, orthodox doctrine and authoritative teaching you long believed. The costs are enormous, and one is reminded of Jesus’ loving warnings. We will all be called to surrender our idols and cling to that which is good and true.

  72. TS00:
    This is so eerily like my experience I feel as if you have a camera into my soul.

    You think you are too ‘smart’ to be brainwashed. Then you wake up. And everyone you know and love thinks they are too smart to be brainwashed. Sadly you must be willing to give up all, and start over in replacing all of the received traditions, orthodox doctrine and authoritative teaching you long believed. The costs are enormous, and one is reminded of Jesus’ loving warnings. We will all be called to surrender our idols and cling to that which is good and true.

    I wasn’t brainwashed in the cults I attended, I was stupider than that. I went in more or less eyes open, but then ignored what my eyes and ears and spirit told me and thought I could be “the light in the darkness”. Ha! Thought I could reason with pastor. Ha! And took my children in with me—and my oldest still has PTSD from church. Yowzers, what kind of drugs must I have been on?

  73. hoodaticus: Dee, don’t feel bad. Lawyers get plaintiff and defendant screwed up all the time too. This gets especially confusing when appeals interrupt the trial, and the plaintiff perhaps becomes a respondent in the appeal.

    Denny Crane (William Shatner) and Alan Shore (James Spader) did this all the time.

  74. TS00,

    well, can’t say i don’t speak from experience.

    i think it’s not an unusual one. i think there are many who could identify.

    tension tension tension.

    between kernels of goodness & truth and toxic growths full of the weird, the stupid, the inhumane, and the complete falsehood.

    to the brainwashed person, this tension is the experience of ‘faith’, and the longer they stay in it the more affirming it is to their faith. the more they can say of themselves, ‘good and faithful servant’.

    correction: one does not have to endure dysfunction, toxicity, and abuse in order to be a good and faithful servant.

  75. Law Prof: PTSD from church

    I believe this to be a real ailment among believers who have joined the Done ranks … done with the Christian Industrial Complex, but not done with Jesus … but still stressed from their journey.

  76. Max: I believe this to be a real ailment among believers who have joined the Done ranks … done with the Christian Industrial Complex, but not done with Jesus … but still stressed from their journey.

    Definitely. I might struggle with it also. Some wonder why I just can’t “get over it already”, some family members are that way, but I’ve tried to visit churches and every time I get that feeling like back in grade school when you’re called into the principal’s office because you were a bad, bad boy, back in the days when they’d whop you with a paddle (and I did get whopped a few times). It’s the same sort of anxiety with the rising heart rate and respiration and the sickness in the stomach and you use all your energy to get through the door, then you use a big bunch of energy meeting people (wondering, if you were part of that congregation, which ones would stab you in the back if pastor whispered the words in their ears—and I can’t seem to stop my mind from going there). Then you just brace yourself through the sermon (which invariably has at least a few of those those same old cliches and anecdotes your last abusive pastor used and always seems to be delivered in fake, staged “preacher voice”). It feels like the ride in the passenger seat when you’re teaching your teenage kid to drive, your knuckles are just white from clenching. By the end of it I am absolutely exhausted.

    As I go through my life, occasionally something will happen, I’ll read something or see something or hear some word or phrase that will remind me of the days back in one of the three abusive churches I’ve been a member of, and it will be like I’m back there all over again, being abused or watching my children or wife get abused, but seeing it from the perspective of time and knowledge and looking back and knowing what I should’ve said and done, how I could’ve protected my children or myself rather than twisting my brain into three pretzels trying to pretend everything was OK and this was somehow all good, and this hot rage will rise up in me and I sometimes nearly feel like I’m going to pass out from it.

    I don’t know if this is PTSD, but it’s sure not fun to live with.

  77. Law Prof,

    I resemble that remark. My Christian journey has seen similar valleys. But I figure we can’t help someone else out if we are still in.

  78. Max: But I figure we can’t help someone else out if we are still in.

    … and maybe that’s the reason we were “in” … to get a too up-close and personal experience to draw from to aid others. Not trying to be reformed here, but perhaps some things were meant to be or at least used to benefit the Kingdom and not ourselves.

  79. Max: … and maybe that’s the reason we were “in” … to get a too up-close and personal experience to draw from to aid others.Not trying to be reformed here, but perhaps some things were meant to be or at least used to benefit the Kingdom and not ourselves.

    I get it, I agree with you. I’m a little bit reformed myself. Not a 5 pointer, but I can’t imagine the Lord’s just standing back helpless, watching everything happen. I believe He’s active and using everything for good for those who’ve been called and I believe that a whole lot of stuff that gets blamed on the devil, that God’s probably behind it, using it, driving events, to teach us and mold us into something useful and more like Him..

  80. Law Prof: I don’t know if this is PTSD, but it’s sure not fun to live with.

    For what labels are worth, it probably is. But we can’t let our labels confine us.

    A dear friend, who has been my emotional support through these difficult years, encourages me that I am going to get past this, I am going to heal and I am going to get to a place in which I can turn all of this experience – like Joseph – into something good, helpful and productive.

    The voices in my head want to convince me ‘You blew it’; ‘It’s no use standing up against the machine’; ‘Evil will always win’; and ‘There is nothing you can do’. I’m pretty sure those are not the voices I want to surrender to. Oh sure, I retain my faith that ‘someday’ everything will be better, but I have to get through today. I always end up back with David, saying:

    I would have lost heart, unless I had believed
    That I would see the goodness of the Lord
    In the land of the living.
    Wait on the Lord;
    Be of good courage,
    And He shall strengthen your heart;
    Wait, I say, on the Lord!
    (Psalm 27:13-14)

    I am ‘waiting’ on the Lord, and trusting that he will continue to strengthen my heart so that, once again, I can be a giver of hope and help.