5 Types of American Evangelicals and the Great Evangelical Divide


Image by Ryan Ashton

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We are not living in a world where all roads are radii of a circle and where all, if followed long enough, will therefore draw gradually nearer and finally meet at the centre: rather in a world where every road, after a few miles, forks into two, and each of those into two again, and at each fork, you must make a decision.     C.S. Lewis

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The Christian Post featured 5 types of American evangelicals; new report contributes to ‘what is evangelicalism?’ debate.This article was based on a report of the Center for Religion and Civic Culture: The Varieties of American Evangelicalism.

The report identifies the differences between these groups.

Group 1: Trump-vangelicals:

  • The key to this demographic is political power: access to it, holding it, excluding other groups from it and using it to advance a conservative, nationalistic vision of evangelical Christianity, particularly around abortion and “religious freedom.
  • Trump is often referred to as Cyrus, the Persian king who freed the Israelites from their captivity in Babylon and enabled the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem. The fact that Trump is the 45th president, and Cyrus’ actions are recounted in Isaiah, chapter 45, is seen as having prophetic significance. Like Cyrus, Trump is an ungodly ruler who is nonetheless guided by the hand of God to bring biblical prophecy into reality.
  • Pat Robertson, Franklin Graham, Jerry Falwell

Group 2: Neo-Fundamentalist Evangelicals

  • Neo-fundamentalists are evangelicals who are no less theologically and politically conservative than Trump-vangelicals, but who maintain a purist approach to theology and morality that determines which people or groups they will cooperate with to achieve their aims.
  • seek to maintain the most restrictive forms of relationships, not only with other Christians but also with the leaders of other religious, social and political groups. Further, they tend to focus less on mobilizing for political ends than preaching a pure and unadulterated form of Christian belief and morals.
  • Neo-fundamentalists claim authority as morally and religiously “pure” Christians and make their views known through and within their institutions. For instance, the students at Liberty University sought to distance themselves from Trump as a moral representative, but not from his domestic policies and global political perspective.
  • Russell Moore, Al Mohler, John MacArthur

Group 3: iVangelicals

  • iVangelicals are concentrated in the evangelical megachurch movement and focus on reaching large numbers of people through popular worship services, a wide range of programs and small group ministries.
  • Because of their institutional concentration in megachurches (minimum size of 2,000 regular weekly attenders, with many megachurches reaching upwards of 20,000 members or more), iVangelicals represent probably the largest segment of American evangelical
  • the Sunday worship service is the core religious experience
  • iVangelical churches are administered on a corporate model with a board of elders led by the senior pastor, easily memorable mission and vision statements, strategic goals and corporate-style budgets
  • Tim Keller, Joel Osten, T.D.Jakes (ed: I’m having a chuckle over this one.)

Group 4: Kingdom Christians

  • Congregations of Kingdom Christians strive to mirror the demographic and socioeconomic mix of the urban neighborhoods where they are rooted. They often include a more diverse mix of Asian, Latino and Black members than other evangelical institutions, where ethnic diversity is largely aspirational and whites compose majorities and hold the organizational power.
  • often critique the economic and political systems that produce poverty and racial injustice, the focus of their efforts is on creating relationships in the local community and shaping policy through engagement with local officials.  The ethos of Kingdom Christians thus reflects an inclusive form of Kingdom Theology that is marked by a keenly localized concern for human flourishing and the systemic sources of suffering.
  • Neither mainstream political party accurately mirrors Kingdom Christians’ commitment to local human development work, and communities of Kingdom Christians also tend to be non-ideological. For example, while they may be reluctant to promote same-sex marriage, members are also averse to efforts to discriminate against LGBTQ people under the guise of “religious freedom.”
  • Kevin Haah, Rev Lee de Leon, Alongsiders Church

Group 5:  Peace and Justice Evangelicals

  • The Peace and Justice wing of evangelicalism is a loose network of evangelical pastors, non-profit leaders, professors and activists.
  • The key political issues they seek to address are poverty, racial justice, gender equality, immigration reform, criminal justice reform, war and militarism and “creation care” (i.e. environmental protection).  Some are beginning to move toward LGBTQ equality, but are treading carefully because of resistance inside their institutions. Most are pro-life on the issue of abortion,
  • This group tends to adhere to Anabaptist or Wesleyan theology rather than Calvinism or Dispensationalism. They see themselves as the inheritors of the Tolstoy/Gandhi/King/Chavez tradition of nonviolent resistance, and many are pacifist and deeply suspicious of nationalist impulses in American government, which they often analogize with the Roman Empire in the Bible. Many are also suspicious of or opposed to capitalism as an economic system
  • Jim Wallis, Ron Sider, Tony Campolo, Stanley Hauerwas

Evangelical confusion

The above Christian Post article discusses the evangelical effort to define itself.

The National Association of Evangelicals also sought to clarify the confusion over evangelical identity in the Trump era with a May 28 statement, “Evangelicals — Shared Faith in Broad Diversity.”

“Because there are millions of us in the United States and far more of us in other countries around the world, there are subgroups identified by where we live, how we vote, the level of our education or even our local cultural expressions,” the statement read. “Each has distinctive beliefs and practices that may be unfamiliar or uncomfortable to one another. Sometimes these subgroups or their leaders are identified as typical of all evangelicals even though there is no consensus, connection or communication between them.”

Evangelicals are identified by four basic truths, regardless of political beliefs, the NAE statement continued. Those are:

-The Bible is the highest authority for what I believe.
-It is very important for me personally to encourage non-Christians to trust Jesus Christ as their Savior.
-Jesus Christ’s death on the cross is the only sacrifice that could remove the penalty of my sin.
-Only those who trust in Jesus Christ alone as their Savior receive God’s free gift of eternal salvation.

May God have mercy on us all.

Comments

5 Types of American Evangelicals and the Great Evangelical Divide — 112 Comments

  1. I’m evangelical but not one of those 5.

    Just your middle of the road to conservative non fundamentalist born again believer, non young earth type.

    Are there any others like me out there or have we vanished?

  2. linda:
    I’m evangelical but not one of those 5.

    Just your middle of the road to conservative non fundamentalist born again believer, non young earth type.

    Are there any others like me out there or have we vanished?

    More seriously than my prior remark, ideas tend to ramify and “speciate” over time, and groups that take ideas seriously — as the churches historically have — inevitably tend to drawn apart by this process.

    I used to be a combination of 2 and 5 (with strong sympathies for 4.) Any more, I suspect that that there are significant conceptual flaws in the foundations of evangelical self-conception (or the bits of common self-conception that remain).

    Andrew Perriman has a breathtakingly broad definition of “evangelical” — “anyone who takes the Bible seriously”. I like his proposal that the movement shift weight from the “footstool” of dogmatic theology onto the “footstool” of history before the former collapses. Here’s his latest P.OST item:

    https://www.postost.net/2019/01/stephen-burnhope-atonement-new-perspective

  3. Maybe we need another category called the “John 3:16 Evangelicals” who also adhere to the four basic truths but are not political in any way. But I suspect there aren’t any big names to attach to this category?

  4. I do not fit into any of the five categories. I am guessing folk in these five categories would probably not consider me a Christian.

  5. This isn’t a contribution to any discussion as such; it’s more a hello-world sort of comment.

    I can imagine a context in which someone might not mean it as an insult, but in general I would consider it insulting to be labelled as “evangelical”. Even here in Blighty, where the label is nothing like as strongly party-politically loaded, I’m not evangelical.

    First and foremost, I’m an agnostic. At the point where it really matters, I don’t know. I know what I think about Jesus, at least insofar as the gospel accounts describe him:- if he is God, then God is worth seeking, at any price. But I don’t know what (if anything) he thinks about me, what relationship I have with him, whether he has any beliefs/desires/intentions regarding me and my life, and if he does, whether I meet them or how I would do so.

    I take the bible seriously. I believe it has a unique place as a collection of voices seeking God. And insofar as it points to Jesus, God become human, I believe it is a unique signpost pointing towards him. But I do not believe that the bible is God made Book, or that it is greater than God is, or that it is to be worshipped as God. Thus, as evangelicals would see it, I have a “low view of scripture”, and am a heretic. I would be gravely concerned if I ever did anything to suggest to an evangelical that they should regard me as otherwise.

    I believe the heavy metal genre has produced great as well as terrible music (like every other genre apart from country and western, which has only produced United Breaks Guitars and terrible music). I believe The Life of Brian is a masterpiece of cinematic comedy. I believe the earth is billions, not thousands, of years old, and is spherical, not a disc. I believe that if Jesus rose from the dead then his followers can – in principle at least – heal the sick like he did, and because he did. I believe that if God inspired the bible, then he still speaks directly today. I believe in gay marriage. I am neither “Pro-Life” nor “Pro-Choice” but pro-complexity: it is just not that simple.

    I could go on, but it’s late.

  6. Two observations:

    1) Group #4 examples: Kevin Haah, Rev Lee de Leon, Alongsiders Church are all West Coast.

    2) NAE statement is 4 “Truths” – axioms, principles, beliefs. Whereas, as Dee posted: the litmus test or determinant of Jesus is actually, “Love one another.”

  7. jyjames: Whereas, as Dee posted: the litmus test or determinant of Jesus is actually, “Love one another.”

    Well, yes, at one level that’s true. But how can you say you love someone, but at the same time allow them to go to hell for all eternity because they believe in soul sleep / a young earth / infant baptism / re-baptism of people who were baptised as bairns / post-millennialism / amillennialism / blah / blah blah / blah blah?

    &lt/sigh…>

  8. This article confirms to me that I’m glad not to be an Evangelical. I left that camp a while ago and I don’t look back.

  9. jyjames:
    Two observations:

    … the litmus test or determinant of Jesus is actually, “Love one another.”

    Those would be the I John 3:16 evangelicals. And I think (or at least hope) they are not few.

    Nick Bulbeck: Well, yes, at one level that’s true. But how can you say you love someone, but at the same time allow them to go to hell for all eternity because they believe in soul sleep / a young earth / infant baptism / re-baptism of people who were baptised as bairns / post-millennialism / amillennialism / blah / blah blah / blah blah?

    This, of course, brings into view my worry about the conceptual underpinnings of Ev self-conception. The “gospel” understood as the counterpoint to the “bad news” that (as NT Wright has put it) God so hates the world that He killed His son.

    In the NAE statement, replace “eternal salvation” with anastasis and zoe aionios and there may be something to discuss (including what those terms mean).

  10. I was young and now am old. I have been a believer for 60+ years. No one has ever successfully wrestled me to the ground and put a brand on me. I made a decision long ago to follow Jesus and be a disciple of His. I won’t look back, let up, slow down, back away, or be still. I won’t give up or shut up until I have prayed up and raised up His Name above all names. I will go until He comes for me and go until He stops me. I don’t know where that puts me in the “5 Types of American Evangelicals”, but I do know that the noise in all of those ranks have divided me out of the equation often. I used to think that I was alone in the wilderness, but found that there are 7,000 other Wartburgers who have not bowed to Baal. Maybe we are the 6th group?!

  11. roebuck: I believe I’ll have another beer…

    Roebuck, I am close … real close. After spending 70 years in Southern Baptist ranks, I was taught that drinking alcohol was a bad thing since it led to dancing. But, this mess in the American church is about to cause me to tip a bottle.

  12. Max: But, this mess in the American church is about to cause me to tip a bottle.

    Or, as my dear wife said just now, we could vape since the Bible says that life is but a vapor.

  13. ___

    Olive Arrivals: I’m just waiting painterly hopeful for the Sòn Of Man…

    ;~)

    – –

  14. Max: I used to think that I was alone in the wilderness, but found that there are 7,000 other Wartburgers who have not bowed to Baal. Maybe we are the 6th group?!

    Crivens, no – 6th group of what!? We are Wartburg.

  15. roebuck: I believe I’ll have another beer…

    I like your style!

    As Friday night is wearing away here in Scotland, we’ve already done our end-of-week drinking. The local Co-Op does a rather nice (relatively) low-alcohol sparkling wine. Enjoy responsibly…

  16. Max: But, this mess in the American church is about to cause me to tip a bottle.

    No kidding – this is such a strange messy time! A couple of beers on a Friday night helps keep me sane…

    BTW, yesterday was Benjamin Franklin’s birthday, and as he famously (if perhaps apocryphally) said, “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”

    So this one’s for old Ben… 🙂

  17. Hmmm … I might identify with certain aspects of all these. Would that make me a 5-Point Evangelical?

  18. I think there are some groups which are a mix. Especially #1 and #3 could describe the two major megachurches in DFW (Prestonwood and Gateway; the latter definitely has more #3 in the mix as its elder board is self-perpetuating, whereas Prestonwood allows the congregation to nominate deacons).

  19. Nick Bulbeck: Enjoy responsibly…

    I am getting older, and now I mostly enjoy at home, unless someone else is driving. My eyes are affected by a medical situation such that I just can’t drive after dark. That and a beer really messes things up – I have to shut one eye just to see double!

    But I do like to have me a couple of beers of a Friday evening… cheers!

  20. I don’t get peoples’ love affair with labels. What happens when you find that your label affirms something you do not? Do you have to go out and find a new label? And so on?

    If I ever go to a church again, it will be one that does not dictate its members beliefs. No insistence on affirming the Trinity, Inerrancy, etc. These are all man-made theories. They may be true, somewhat true or totally wrong. Why do people insist that everyone must think exactly like them? Sheesh, I would have to ‘discipline’ or excommunicate myself every few months, as my views adapt and change as I study and open my mind more. Sorry, y’all can keep your labels – I signed up for the ‘renewing your mind’ plan.

  21. Not related to this post but certainly of interest to all concerned with spiritual abuse, the harvest bible chapel XLT elders prove they aren’t even remotely serious about repentance by firing TODAY the pastor of Naples Harvest Bible Chapel.

    ttp://julieroys.com/pastor-harvest-bible-chapel-naples-asks-church-back-wake-james-macdonald-controversy/#comments

  22. First impression:

    Group 1: Commanders of Gilead

    Group 2: Hyper-Puritans, so Pure only one Evangelical on Earth (guess who?) is Pure Enough

    Group 3: Gigas (when Megas are too puny…)

    And all will go for each others’ throats as soon as there are no outside enemies, like the Dukes of Hell over Satan’s empty Throne.

    THAT is what Real True Christianity(TM) has become.

  23. Fisher: Not related to this post but certainly of interest to all concerned with spiritual abuse, the harvest bible chapel XLT elders prove they aren’t even remotely serious about repentance by firing TODAY the pastor of Naples Harvest Bible Chapel.

    Been following that over at Eagle’s blog.

    Lead Pastor JMac is bugging out (as Cee Jay and Marky-Mark did in their day), and the existing pastor keeping his Florida bolthole/Fuehrebunker open has outlived his usefulness.

  24. Whatever happened to, “Christian?” It has a very nice ring to it…with “Christ” being in it and all. He is still the main thing about Christianity, isn’t He?

  25. Nick Bulbeck: Well, yes, at one level that’s true. But how can you say you love someone, but at the same time allow them to go to hell for all eternity because they believe in soul sleep / a young earth / infant baptism / re-baptism of people who were baptised as bairns / post-millennialism / amillennialism / blah / blah blah / blah blah?

    Because there can be Only One One True Way.
    Even if it results in the theoretical End State reached by A.W.Pink, The One True Church of One.
    (i.e. Only I Am Right)

  26. Headless Unicorn Guy,
    Brains Fried; more what I was trying to say:

    “For in the Devil’s theology, the most important thing is to Be Absolutely Right and to prove everyone else to Be Absolutely Wrong.”
    — Thomas Merton, “Moral Theology of the Devil”

  27. roebuck: But I do like to have me a couple of beers of a Friday evening… cheers!

    And a (belated) slàinte mhath to you too!

  28. ION: Fitba’

    AWWBA, I’ve supported Liverpool Fitba’ Club for over 40 years the noo. However, I am a long way behind Bernard Sheridan, who celebrates his 104th birthday today and has supported them for 96 years.

    Mr Sheridan will be a VIP guest at today’s home match against Palace. I hope we win, for his sake! Mind you, he’s supported them through thick and thin for nearly a century, so I think he’ll be able to handle whatever happens.

    IHTIH

  29. augustine: Whatever happened to, “Christian?” It has a very nice ring to it…with “Christ” being in it and all. He is still the main thing about Christianity, isn’t He?

    It seems that the institutional church in many places has become more of a gathering of “ists” rather than “ians” … fundamental’ists’, Calvin’ists’, Bapt’ists’, Method’ists’, etc. We cling to doctrinal armor, diluting Truth to suit our fancy. I guess “Churchianity” would be a better descriptor of much of the American church. I can take you to churches in my area tomorrow where Jesus’ name will only receive incidental mention … the main thing is not the Main Thing.

  30. Max: “Churchianity”

    “These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules. You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions. . . . You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!” (Mark 7:6-9, Isaiah 29:13)

  31. seems to me that the word “evangelical” is a misnomer in the first place, and it is NOT as it just describes American forms of Christianity. Ideally the word Christian should refer to the same set of beliefs all over the world. Here in America we just mess it up with our various “isms” due to the freedom that we have. In many parts of the world Christian = death sentence. Ask THOSE believers what it means! I think they know better than us!!!

  32. Abigail: I think they know better than us!!!

    Agreed. Pure Christianity can be found where Christians are persecuted. The American church has a lot of impurities in it. In our comfort, we can make it what we want it to be. The God of Entertainment is on the throne in much of the American church … persecuted Christians in other parts of the world would not recognize it as something to give their lives for.

    When my daughter was in college, she attended a Bible study group. A young lady from South Africa was invited to attend. She became visibly uncomfortable with the lightness given to God’s Word by the leader and the shallow faith shared by some of the students. After a while she got up to leave with these words “You people don’t get it.”

  33. Max: After a while she got up to leave with these words “You people don’t get it.”

    Pretty much my response to every (American) church I have attended in the last half dozen years. (Before then, I didn’t get it.)

  34. TS00: (Before then, I didn’t get it.)

    Once you see it, you can’t un-see it. Once it’s in your knower, you can’t un-know it.

  35. ION: Sport

    So, Bernard had a bit of an epic 104th birthday at Anfield today as we edged a 7-goal thriller against Palace (who’ve been a bit of a bogey team for us in recent years). But they all count…

    In further other news, I finally gave in to the pestering App Store message and upgraded my MacBook to the Mo Harvey operating system version. Seems to be working so far.

    IHTIH

  36. I suspect I might count myself among those who punctuate comments on Twitter with #exvangelical.

    I used to say I was a Christian, but now “christian” is a terrible word to me, synonymous with “smug, loveless hypocrite”. Apologies to sincere followers of Christ who read this. Not talking about you, but about the “christians” we once tried to be part of who tied heavy burdens on each other’s backs and were more into separation and superiority of doctrine than love and compassion and bearing one another’s burdens.

  37. Abigail: Ideally the word Christian should refer to the same set of beliefs all over the world. Here in America we just mess it up with our various “isms” due to the freedom that we have. In many parts of the world Christian = death sentence. Ask THOSE believers what it means! I think they know better than us!!!

    Persecution does strip faith down to the essentials, but at what cost? It hampers the spreading of the Gospel. Church authorities in the Third Reich and Soviet Union faced choices about whether to stay with a hopelessly compromised church, insist on Truth and face arrest, or abandon the church. American Christianity can be shallow, but I can seek a deeper church. I’m allowed to read, and to buy any edition of the Bible. I’m sure you’re not suggesting we give up our religious freedom, but what should we do?

  38. Nick Bulbeck: So, Bernard had a bit of an epic 104th birthday at Anfield today as we edged a 7-goal thriller against Palace

    Incredible! 7 goals in a Premier League game. That means there will be two 0-0 draws and a 1-0 result soon to balance that out to the 2.81 goals per game average.

  39. I don’t fit into any of the 5, and I’ve attended a evangelical churches 61 years. I may need to go ahead and make the switch to a Mainline church. I already vary between Lutheran, Methodist, Episcopal, churches now when I go….

  40. I think we all need to keep in mind that the 5 categories is only the University of Southern California’s attempt to politically group evangelicals. As in any attempt to categorize people, there will be discrepancies.

    The term “evangelical” is defined today in such a way to render it meaningless. It appears to me that evangelical is used as a pejorative by outsiders most of the time. I try not to use the term, unless my audience holds a preconceived notion of lack of intelligence of the evangelical, so I can hopefully prove that we are not all dumb.

    These days, I don’t hold much stock categories of people.

  41. I’m not an evangelical for a lot of reasons, though I might be okay with confessional Protestant.

  42. I find placing people in buckets to be a little bit unhelpful. I’ve known evangelicals that fall into some of the buckets but also none of the buckets.
    A church, pastor, movement or denomination should be judged by its activities and actions.
    Christianity falls under such a wide spectrum I’ve seen Catholics and other protestants fall in these categories…yep even Lutherans.
    Certainly there are church trends that are disturbing and they are rightly brought forward.
    Maybe I need to read the post again but this one kind of missed the mark. Not sure I get the point.

    And full disclosure… I don’t identify as Christian.

  43. I bet it gets lonely in heaven
    I bet that God gets lost too
    I bet it gets lonely in heaven
    I bet that God sings the blues
    -the Glorious Sons, Sunday

  44. Revelation 2-3 adds 2 more categories for a total of 7:
    (1) Ephesus (2:1-7): lost its first love.
    (2) Smyrna (2:8-11): persecuted.
    (3) Pergamum (2:12-17): needing repentance.
    (4) Thyatira (2:18-29): harboring false prophets.
    (5) Sardis (3:1-6): asleep.
    (6) Philadelphia (3:7-13): stable, abiding.
    (7) Laodicea (3:14-22): tepid faith.

  45. jyjames: Revelation 2-3 adds 2 more categories for a total of 7

    Yep, now that describes the types of American evangelicals exactly, with a common problem “Repent, or else!”

  46. __

    “Saved By Zero Involvement, Perhaps?”

    hmmm…

    [ ] As The Wartburg Watch blog has consistently identified since 2009, no 501c3 church establishment, regardless of category, is ‘safe’ from the possibility of some form of church violence. To this day, its pages are replete with glaring gut wrenching ‘real life’ examples.

    huh?

    A proverbial pretentious problematic situation has been clearly identified.

    Q. An acceptable solution is close behind?

    (sadface)

    Sòpy

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JOiZP8FS5Ww

    ;~)

    – –

  47. Max,

    That sums it up with #’s 1, 3, 4, 5 & 7. Yet the second and sixth seem to be the exceptions: suffering, and abiding.

    (However, not a theologian here.) In any case, God seems to have His categories, too.

  48. __

    “A glad heart makes a cheerful face, but by sorrow of heart the spirit is crushed. “

    hmmm…

    Contrary to certain established critic beliefs, this blog does not foster hopelessness, but acute awareness.

    Hopelessness is an acute blinding victimized spiritual illness.

    Some of the commentators here unfortunately possibly have contracted it in varying degrees through 501c3 victimization.

    It is profoundly curable by trusting Jesus at His word.

    Yet, with all the damage caused, that is easier said than done. An infusion of God’s word will certainly aid in recovery.

    There are those possessing the principal of reading the scriptures hour by hour to their patients extremely addicted to hard narcotics,

    I am happy to say the results were and are very promising…

    This effort can help those here greatly in need of comfort,

    (tears)

    “My soul faints for thy salvation: but I continually hope in Your word…”

    Hope in His word today, you’ll be glad you did!

    ATB 🙂

    Sòpy

    Inspiration:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MWRF2njkY9A
    Bonus: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hrSJwO5dJXg

    ;~)

    – –

  49. Nick Bulbeck: Well, yes, at one level that’s true. But how can you say you love someone, but at the same time allow them to go to hell for all eternity because they believe in soul sleep / a young earth / infant baptism / re-baptism of people who were baptised as bairns / post-millennialism / amillennialism / blah / blah blah / blah blah?

    &lt/sigh…>

    Right. So, really, our concept of the love God has becomes the kind of love we have towards others.

    I sometimes wonder: If God is truly kind, forgiving, accepting, and valuing of individuals, how would it feel to stand before him having imagined him as harsh, brutal, demanding and punitive?

    If the opposite is true, will he be insulted if we thought of him as too kind?

    Well, I just think about these things from time to time…

  50. Max: I was young and now am old. I have been a believer for 60+ years. No one has ever successfully wrestled me to the ground and put a brand on me. I made a decision long ago to follow Jesus and be a disciple of His. I won’t look back, let up, slow down, back away, or be still. I won’t give up or shut up until I have prayed up and raised up His Name above all names. I will go until He comes for me and go until He stops me. I don’t know where that puts me in the “5 Types of American Evangelicals”, but I do know that the noise in all of those ranks have divided me out of the equation often. I used to think that I was alone in the wilderness, but found that there are 7,000 other Wartburgers who have not bowed to Baal. Maybe we are the 6th group?!

    I love this.

    Maybe it turns out there is a current beneath the visible surface of believers just living their lives who aren’t connected to or identified by any big name, who are unknown to everyone except God and those people in their circles. And maybe it turns out that the big names and organizations turn out to be nothing and vanish like the wind when their time is up. And truly they had their reward.

  51. ION: Lunar eclipse

    Wartburgers may well be aware that there is a lunar eclipse coming up in just under 24 hours at the time of writing. It will be visible from much of the earth’s surface, including – for instance – the Americas and Europe. Lunar eclipses are in many ways easier to watch than solar ones – totality lasts for much longer and there is no risk of damaging your eyes. On the other hand, they usually involve staying up late or getting up early!

    Totality is around 5am UTC in the UK, though that will obviously vary around the world. Wartburgers are advised to check locally on the interwebs. Obviously, there won’t be any point staying up if it’s bucketing with rain. Forecast is mixed hereabouts.

    IHTIH

  52. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    My mum has a wee cartoon sticker on her fridge which says:

    I tried jogging, but I couldn’t keep the ice in my glass.

    I believe we’re barking up the same hymn-sheet here.

  53. Jack: Maybe I need to read the post again but this one kind of missed the mark. Not sure I get the point.

    I’m with you on this one.

    Just another form of persecution and division-causing to me. I am pro-life and, living on the Mexican border, I fully support wall-building (and have for 15 years.)

    I also believe the Bible is the true Word of God.

    I have no desire to permit or promote abusive, power-hungry religious leaders in the name of Christianity, nor do I subscribe to the superiority of any gender or race or class of people over another.

    I consider the Golden Rule to be the standard for judging the fruits of true Christian servanthood.

    Can’t find a place where I fit in that list.

    I understand social commentary and calling out evil and abuse when one sees them (and clearly, I am supportive of the general purpose and work of this blog,) but I find this list to be derisive.

  54. Max:
    I was young and now am old.I have been a believer for 60+ years.No one has ever successfully wrestled me to the ground and put a brand on me.I made a decision long ago to follow Jesus and be a disciple of His.I won’t look back, let up, slow down, back away, or be still.I won’t give up or shut up until I have prayed up and raised up His Name above all names.I will go until He comes for me and go until He stops me.I don’t know where that puts me in the “5 Types of American Evangelicals”, but I do know that the noise in all of those ranks have divided me out of the equation often.I used to think that I was alone in the wilderness, but found that there are 7,000 other Wartburgers who have not bowed to Baal.Maybe we are the 6th group?!

    Just beautiful Max!

    You are literally being the “ekklesia” (Tyndale transcribed this word as ‘congregation’) every day, of which born again believers are called to do, apart from any hierarchal religious system in which “lording it over” occurs in every religious institution. The priesthood of believers only know Jesus Christ as the One and only “Head” and “Mediator” in our faith, which the “leadership teams” of visible evangelicalism truly hate.

    Want to follow the leading of religious people in your life…… c’hurch leaders and membership will love you.
    Want to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit in your life…….c’hurch leaders and membership will hate you.

    In religious systems worldwide, an individual MUST be a part of some organized religion in order to be “valid.”

    In Jesus time and ours as well, an individual MUST be born again and believe in Christ alone for salvation, no Nicolaitan system required.

    “So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of GOD.” 1 Corinthians 10:31

  55. Beth74: I am supportive of the general purpose and work of this blog,) but I find this list to be derisive.

    I took that to be the main point of this post – to show stupidity of pigeonholing people into caractitures.

  56. Karen: Nicolaitan system

    Christians should hate the Nicolaitan system where an authoritarian pulpit lords over the pew. Why? Because Jesus hates it: “But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate” (Rev. 2:6). Much of what is discussed on TWW is the result of Nicolaitans in the American church … we may call them something else (e.g. New Calvinists), but they are of the Nicolaitan spirit, nonetheless.

  57. SiteSeer: And maybe it turns out that the big names and organizations turn out to be nothing and vanish like the wind when their time is up.

    “Many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first” (Matthew 19:30).

  58. What bugs me the most I cannot blame on “them” but have to look at “us.”

    I come from a time when the definition of an evangelical was simple: those who believe in the necessity of being born again, and seek to lead others to being born again through repentance of sin and belief in Jesus Christ as Savior to bring that forgiveness.

    How in the world did we slip so far people outside the movement do not know what the most basic premise of the movement is?

    May God forgive us, and may we return to making the main thing the main thing.

    Not if we are Calvinistic or Arminianistic or Baptistic. Not if we are young earth or old earth, dispensationalist or historic pre mill or amill or post mill.

    Nope, just plain and simple do we believe in the necessity of new birth and seek to lead people to that new birth? That is it.

    Max, is it possible God now is calling folks as missionaries TO the SBC?

  59. jyjames: Revelation 2-3 adds 2 more categories for a total of 7:
    (1) Ephesus (2:1-7): lost its first love.
    (2) Smyrna (2:8-11): persecuted.
    (3) Pergamum (2:12-17): needing repentance.
    (4) Thyatira (2:18-29): harboring false prophets.
    (5) Sardis (3:1-6): asleep.
    (6) Philadelphia (3:7-13): stable, abiding.
    (7) Laodicea (3:14-22): tepid faith.

    jyjames: the second and sixth seem to be the exceptions: suffering, and abiding

    Yes, it’s better to be commended by Jesus, than condemned. Bring this list forward into 21st century church … Wartburgers, which best describes the church you attend?

    Jesus is coming back for a church without spot or wrinkle (Eph. 5:27). Seems to me that He has a lot of washing and ironing to do first! Get ready – I have a feeling that there will be shout resounding in Heaven soon “Enough is enough!”

  60. Jack,

    it’s news.

    current events, and a reported perspective on the current events.

    never understood the word ‘evangelical’. always seemed like a trumped-up little word to separate the exclusive in-group from the out-group.

    i’ve noticed the word only seems to be used by those who are part of the in-group. i mean, does anyone actually say, “no, i’m not evangelical, i’m xxx.”

    well, i’ll happily be the first.

    (am i first?)

    beware the soul who dares to classify me.

    guess it’s not me.

  61. I read the comments on this thread slightly, or more then slightly confused. It’s like there is great mystical concept called “Evangelical.” We ask ourselves if it’s real or just an undefinable figment of imagination.

    We don’t act this way with things outside the Faith. If I say Ford Motor Co, nobody questions if FMC is a label to vague, or not applicable to today culture. You either drive a Ford, or you don’t. It’s thing.

    Evangelical = Neo- Evangelical. But the Neo was soon dropped. It’s a thing. How hard is this?

    I say this all the time. Big Eva only dates from 1948. It has definable charateristics and principles as a movement. Harold Ockenga, would be the first founder coming to mind. Carl F.H. Henry comes to mind next, having essentialy proposed Neo-Evangelicalism circa 1947.(from memory)

    If you are a Christian alive today, you have been affected by a 1940’s internal church war deciding the relationship of Church, and World. The Neo-Evangelicals won.

    Does no one have Google?

  62. Nathan Priddis:
    I read the comments on this thread slightly, or more then slightly confused. It’s like there is great mystical concept called “Evangelical.” We ask ourselves if it’s real or just an undefinable figment of imagination.

    We don’t act this way with things outside the Faith. If I say Ford Motor Co, nobody questions if FMC is a label to vague, or not applicable to today culture. You either drive a Ford, or you don’t. It’s thing.

    Evangelical = Neo- Evangelical. But the Neo was soon dropped. It’s a thing. How hard is this?

    I say this all the time. Big Eva only dates from 1948. It has definable charateristics and principles as a movement. Harold Ockenga, would be the first founder coming to mind. Carl F.H. Henry comes to mind next, having essentialy proposed Neo-Evangelicalism circa 1947.(from memory)

    If you are a Christian alive today, you have been affected by a 1940’s internal church war deciding the relationship of Church, and World. The Neo-Evangelicals won.

    Does no one have Google?

    Yes we do, but your simplistic definition is severely lacking.

  63. Ken P.,

    Not lacking at all, typos aside.

    -It was not the same Gospel as described in the Scriptures.
    -It very much was a reaction to Dispensationalism / Fundametalism.
    -It is very much also an engagement of culture, for the express purpose of influencing society with Protestant traditions.

    It is a struggle both within, and without.

  64. That is misrepresenting historical events.
    Individuals unfamiliar with Evangelical history could easily be confused by this idea that historical events might only be personal opinions or view points.

    Individuals belonging to the North American Church, have been affected by history, whether they know the existence of that history, or not.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_F._H._Henry
    [His early book, The Uneasy Conscience of Modern Fundamentalism (1947), was influential in calling evangelicals to differentiate themselves from separatist fundamentalism and claim a role in influencing the wider American culture. He was involved in the creation of numerous major evangelical organizations, including the National Association of Evangelicals, Fuller Theological Seminary, Evangelical Theological Society, Christianity Today magazine (of which he was the founding editor), and the Institute for Advanced Christian Studies. The Carl F. H. Henry Institute for Evangelical Engagement at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and the Carl F. H. Henry Center for Theological Understanding at Trinity International University seek to carry on his legacy.[1]]

  65. Harold Ockenga and the origin of the term Neo-Evangelical. Notice below the referances to social influence, including a political influence.

    This concept of social influence by Protestant traditions, is a logical evolution from Kuyper’s Stone Lectures at Princeton. ( Kuyper’s Seven Spheres which included Government)

    [In the foreword to The Battle For the Bible by Harold Lindsell, Ockenga further defined the term neo-evangelicalism:

    Neo-evangelicalism was born in 1948 in connection with a convocation address which I gave in the Civic Auditorium in Pasadena. While reaffirming the theological view of fundamentalism, this address repudiated its ecclesiology and its social theory. The ringing call for a repudiation of separatism and the summons to social involvement received a hearty response from many Evangelicals. … It differed from fundamentalism in its repudiation of separatism and its determination to engage itself in the theological dialogue of the day. It had a new emphasis upon the application of the gospel to the sociological, political, and economic areas of life.]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Ockenga

  66. linda: Max, is it possible God now is calling folks as missionaries TO the SBC?

    If so, they are voices crying in the wilderness. The New Calvinist movement has come in like a flood and is now in control of the SBC wheel. It will have to run its course before evangelists can enter SBC pulpits again.

  67. Ah, but Max, the Calvinists did not come in through the pulpit and evangelists. They came in through the pew. I knew far more Calvinists in the SBC than I can count long before I heard one in the pulpit.

    So maybe the SBC needs an invasion of traditionalists. Shoot, to be honest they don’t even need to join where they attend. Be there, comment, live out the faith publicly the other 7 days of the week, refuse to be re-educated comrade.

    As to the 5 kinds labels, I was thinking today that there may be two: those that view the world and the faith optimistically and those with a negative mindset. The optimist can see the flaws and works to change them without embracing cynicism and negativity. The one with the negative mindset would find fault with Jesus Christ if He stood before them in the flesh, and always see the sky as falling.

    So I am asking myself which one am I?

  68. Nathan Priddis: I read the comments on this thread slightly, or more then slightly confused. It’s like there is great mystical concept called “Evangelical.” We ask ourselves if it’s real or just an undefinable figment of imagination.

    I am missing your point. Whatever “evangelical” should mean or used to mean, it no longer means that in common usage. It has become an extremely vague term that is now nearly meaningless.

  69. Nathan Priddis,

    Yes, many of us do have the mighty Google. But it’s useful to move beyond the wisdom of Wikipedia into the realms of factual history. Rather than go into all the ins and outs of Evangelicalism, readers might be interested to read about its history (at least in the American form) in the Wheaton College archives. You’ll see that things started moving a long time before Ockenga and that Free Will Baptists played a formative role.

    https://archon.wheaton.edu/?p=creators/creator&id=137

  70. Lowlandseer,

    And for a complete overview, “Division and Unity: The Paradox of Christianity in America” – the introductory essay to ‘Dictionary of Christianity in America’ is essential reading.

  71. Lowlandseer:
    Lowlandseer,

    And for a complete overview, “Division and Unity: The Paradox of Christianity in America” – the introductory essay to ‘Dictionary of Christianity in America’ is essential reading.

    I think Wikipedia is about as unscholary as possible, and reflects pop culture. Therefore I chose it.

    I am suspecting we are on the verge of a post-Evangelical chapter in history. Evangelicalism is now 70 years old. It is a tired corrupt movement, just like Fundamentalism was in 1947-48. That’s sorta the focus material of this blog. The re-occuring headlines that all point to something wrong in the Church.

    What confuses me is the difficulty in calling a spade, a spade. We have spent our whole lives in a Church, at war with itself, and struggling against society. But vocalizing who, what and where, appears really threatening.

    The referances founding in 1948, translates into actions completely tangible in our every day lives in 2019. Such as :

    Church and seminary takeovers.
    Why do they happen? Because Evangelicalism specificly called for denomination leadership struggle. Nothing has changed at all. Except the internet was invented and we complain about it on threads in 2019.

    Culture wars.
    Why do they happen, and result in 25% of the government unable to function the third week of January, 2019? Because political and social struggle was explicitly called for in writing, in 1947-48.

    Did the founders envision the nature of their Movement? No, they where probably as shocked as everyone else that it worked at all.

    We erroneously state the Gospel is entirely a redemption story. But we are uncomfortable with a struggle and deception narrative that began in Eden, and just passes new chapters in history.

    This chapter is old and lame.

  72. Nathan Priddis: Culture wars.
    Why do they happen, and result in 25% of the government unable to function the third week of January, 2019? Because political and social struggle was explicitly called for in writing, in 1947-48.

    Uh, no. Sorry, Nathan, but I disagree with this point. This is politics of a non religious nature that has fomented a partial shutdown of the U.S. government – not starting a political discussion but not everything that happens revolves around christianity.

  73. linda: I knew far more Calvinists in the SBC than I can count long before I heard one in the pulpit.

    In my 70 years as a Southern Baptist (I’m now a “Done”), I knew several classical Calvinists. While I didn’t agree with their theology, I found them to be civil in their discourse and respectful of other expressions of faith. They weren’t trying to take over the SBC and its majority millions of non-Calvinists. The New Calvinist tribe that has come into the ranks is a totally different beast … it is arrogant, militant and aggressive. The new reformers truly believe they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the gospel that the rest of Christendom has lost (only Calvinism = gospel to them).

  74. Jack: Uh, no.Sorry, Nathan, but I disagree with this point.This is politics of a non religious nature that has fomented a partial shutdown of the U.S. government – not starting a political discussion but not everything that happens revolves around christianity.

    …”Oh, no single piece of our mental world is to be hermetically sealed off from the rest, and there is not a square inch in the whole domain of our human existence over which Christ, who is Sovereign over all, does not cry: ‘Mine!’
    Sphere Sovereignty (p. 488) cited in James D. Bratt, ed., Abraham Kuyper, A Centennial Reader, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1998)….”

    As quoted from Wiki..again.

    I would argue this mindset does in fact act as the basis for day to day actions, by those under it’s influence. And said individuals occupy locations along a timeline. Examples would be Machen’s Warriors, the Neo-Evangelical crowd and along the path until we reach today’s Neo- Calvinist or Court Evangelicals.

    Imagine explaining to 1970’s Shepharding Movement leaders, or Bill Gothard that not everything revolved around Christianity, and they should just relax.

  75. SiteSeer:

    I love this.

    Maybe it turns out there is a current beneath the visible surface of believers just living their lives who aren’t connected to or identified by any big name, who are unknown to everyone except God and those people in their circles. And maybe it turns out that the big names and organizations turn out to be nothing and vanish like the wind when their time is up. And truly they had their reward.

    And I love this.

  76. Nathan Priddis,

    Not sure if I am getting your point, but your history lesson is very informative. It supports my theory that the whole shebang was started to manipulate and control people, particularly in regards to p*l*tical and ec*n*mic matters. Which explains why ‘the church’ stopped looking like the Body of Christ out to spread the gospel and started looking like the religious right, out to save democracy.

  77. Nathan Priddis,

    I’m pretty sure that the Good News is all about redemption and I’m guessing that the deception story you mention is a reference to an odd belief held by the Church of the Firstborn (LeBaron Order) – Mormon Fundamentalists -rather than some white supremacists groups (thank you Wikipedia. 🙂 )

  78. There have been many brands of christendom over the years with aspirations of a christianised society. That is to say, it didn’t start with the “religious right” in the US. During and after the Industrial Revolution in the UK, you could argue that a “religious left” arose. I use quotation marks because “left” and “right” are extremely low-resolution labels in the same way that “evangelical” and “charismatic” are.

    Labels are a strange – nay, paradoxical – thing. On the one hand they are necessary, because they mirror the way the human brain imposes patterns and order on an otherwise infinitely complex world, and besides, human beings can’t function alone and need ways of identifying others “like” themselves. On the other hand, they’re useless, because they encourage us to apply stereotypes to unique human individuals, and with the best will in the world, our brains fill in those stereotypes with a lot of fine detail that will probably be inaccurate more often than not.

    To quote an Alan Garner novel: So the matter rests, though we do not.

  79. Nick Bulbeck: During and after the Industrial Revolution in the UK…

    Erratum:

    I meant to add “for instance” – it’s been going a lot longer than that, obviously.

  80. TS00:
    Nathan Priddis,

    Not sure if I am getting your point, but your history lesson is very informative. It supports my theory that the whole shebang was started to manipulate and control people, particularly in regards to p*l*tical and ec*n*mic matters. Which explains why ‘the church’ stopped looking like the Body of Christ out to spread the gospel and started looking like the religious right, out to save democracy.

    I am conpletely convinced we where started by Jesus of Nazareth. Am we are also uncomfortable with our history, scriptures and trajectory.

  81. Max–totally agree with you about the new Calvinists! Just, probably due to location, I first encountered them in the pew. THEN when they were a sufficient voting block encountered them in the pulpit.

    I remain prayerful and hopeful that getting rid of this aberration will also come from the pew.

    And yes, I have had no problem with classic Calvinists. I also have zero issue with those that term themselves moderate Calvinists. Of course, that gets the new Calvinists up in arms as they hate them worse than they do any other group, engaging in name calling such as “idiot Calvinists” and “inconsistent Calvinists” or “inconsistent arminians.”

    I tend not to get hyper over labels, as my Wesleyan friends consider all who believe in once saved always saved as Calvinists, and my Baptist friends consider Wesleyan folks as crypto Catholics.

    Me, I am merely a Christian. Been worshipping at two churches, one a reformed leaning but definitely not new Calvinist SBC church and an independent fundamentalist Baptist church. Only now that latter is getting involved with rabid YEC to the point of going cultic, so suppose my last time there was, well, my last time there. For here I will continue that SBC, at least until I know how the UMC shakes out in Feb. But at the SBC nobody has conniption fit if someone brings the “wrong” translation or bats an eye if one gal brings her Joyce Meyer Bible or I bring my C S Lewis one. I call it reformed leaning because it is pretty much a combo of good Lutheran but without the liturgical aspect theologically and holding to OSAS. Which adds up to a church that assumes everyone is potentially “elect” and so evangelizes, and then relaxes once saved into the capable arms of a loving Savior. Very joyful, non Lordship Salvation, reformed in a good way like Emmanuel Enid is reformed in a good way.

  82. Nathan Priddis: I would argue this mindset does in fact act as the basis for day to day actions, by those under it’s influence. And said individuals occupy locations along a timeline. Examples would be Machen’s Warriors, the Neo-Evangelical crowd and along the path until we reach today’s Neo- Calvinist or Court Evangelicals.

    Imagine explaining to 1970’s Shepharding Movement leaders, or Bill Gothard that not everything revolved around Christianity, and they should just relax.

    Your assuming that everyone is under the influence of these folks. A lot of us (probably most of us aren’t). I never even heard of anything you are quoting and I was a christian for a long time.

    Now maybe the implication is that I was not the right kind of christian but I would say the Roman Catholic church or the Greek Orthodox church or even the Southern Baptist Convention may have had (and still have) influence to a greater or lesser extent.

    I’m not denying what Wikipedia says, I just don’t think the influences you are citing were all that important – never even heard of the shepherding movement or Bill Gothard until I read it here. This is more the “evangelical fringe” than a real influential movement.

    Not that it didn’t hurt people (a lot of people) but just not a huge influence on charting the course of human history.

  83. ishy: Wonder if it’s not just because of Amazon, but because of their theology as well.

    LifeWay is the publishing house for the Southern Baptist Convention. Besides a network of bookstores across the country, it provides Bible study literature and other resources not only to Southern Baptist churches but other faiths as well. In recent years, traditional (non-Calvinist) Southern Baptists (there are millions of them) have become concerned about SBC’s drift in reformed theology – LifeWay promotes New Calvinist materials. It could be they are avoiding the bookstores for this reason; I certainly have for years – the last time I was in a LifeWay store, I almost tripped over a New Calvinist book display (Piper et al.) just inside the doorway.

  84. Lydia,

    Yet another reason to “test the spirits to see whether they are from God.”

    (are you the same anti-New Calvinist Lydia who used to comment here frequently? … if so, I missed you)